Ann Patchett and an Audience!

Summary

The Book Case Podcast

Episode: Ann Patchett and an Audience!

Hosts: Charlie Gibson & Kate Gibson
Guests: Ann Patchett (author), Jesmyn Ward (author, in second segment)
Date: June 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this lively and intimate on-location episode, Charlie and Kate Gibson host bestselling author Ann Patchett in front of a live audience at Parnassus Books in Nashville to discuss her latest novel, Whistler. The hosts probe Patchett’s process, themes of the book, and her thoughts on love, memory, and the difficulty of writing about kindness in fiction. The latter half features an extended interview with acclaimed author Jesmyn Ward, continuing a conversation about her memoir essay collection On Witness and Respair, exploring her personal history, self-doubt, and reasons for staying rooted in Mississippi.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ann Patchett and Whistler: Themes and Autobiography

[00:37–13:23]

• Synopsis & Major Themes

  • Whistler centers around Daphne, a woman in her late 50s who unexpectedly encounters her former stepfather, Eddie, at the Metropolitan Museum of Art—sparking a journey through memory, shared trauma, and renewed connection.
  • The novel also features a parallel story involving a horse named Whistler, symbolic of loyalty and rescue.

• On Repeating Themes (Writing What You Know)

  • Patchett discusses moving past her old rule of not repeating herself in novels:

    “There were so many points that I thought, oh, wait, I can't do that. I've written about that before. And then I thought, I don't really care. I really just want to do what's best for the book.” (Ann Patchett, 05:02)

  • She acknowledges autobiographical elements—such as the main character having three fathers and no children—mirroring her own life, but this time embraces it.

    “When I was younger, I would really have worried about that. But at this point, I am in the phase of freedom and liberation in my life.” (Ann Patchett, 07:15)

• On Authors Inserting Themselves in Characters

  • Inspired by her friend Kevin Wilson, Patchett notes:

    “Every single character in every single thing I write is completely me.” (Ann Patchett, 07:35)

  • Jokingly admits, “I'm also the horse. And I was such a good horse.” (Ann Patchett, 08:34)

• Challenges of Writing About Love and Kindness

  • Patchett reflects on how rare and difficult it is to write about enduring, healthy love:

    “You don't see it a lot in books. ... It is hard to express it in ways that resonate… with everybody.” (Ann Patchett, 12:26)

• Primary vs. Secondary Sources of Goodness

  • Observes that headlines and internet culture elevate stories of anger and discord, while everyday kindness is rarely chronicled:

    “We all seem to take the secondary source as having primacy over the primary source. I see love and kindness and goodness in my life, but the real story is the hate, the violence, the fear.” (Ann Patchett, 13:46)

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2. Memory, Childhood, and the Power of Support

[10:20–22:12]

• On the Essentiality of Support in Childhood

  • Patchett asserts the transformative impact of having just one loving adult in a child's life:

    “If a child has one person in her life who believes in her and sees her for who she is… that love can change your entire life.” (Ann Patchett, 10:38)

  • Recalls a quirky study on joyous childhood memories:

    “Three things: an element of danger, the presence of the father, and fried food.” (Ann Patchett, 11:00)

• On Trauma and Repressed Memories

  • Daphne’s suppression of Eddie after childhood trauma gets explored:

    “She puts him out of her mind because otherwise it would kill her.” (Ann Patchett, 19:11)

• Narrative Technique

  • Alternating first- and third-person perspectives signal ownership of memory and storytelling:

    “She is the writer of that, the owner of that story. But the third person sections… she is doing what Eddie asked her to do. She is going back and writing the story.” (Ann Patchett, 19:53)

• Personal Inspiration from Ann’s Family

  • Patchett traces the book’s autobiographical roots—her own childhood separated by divorce and cross-country moves:

    “He saved up to buy two plane tickets. And we spoke every month on the 2nd of the month… That is really sad that somebody can make a decision that I'm going to take you out of this person's life and move you to the other side of the country.” (Ann Patchett, 20:28)

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3. Audience Q&A and Behind-the-Scenes

[22:12–28:19]

• Patchett describes buying a Hot Wheels toy car to map out the logistics of the novel’s pivotal car accident scene. (22:26)
• On titling the book Whistler:

  “The title was always Whistler. There was always this horse. ... It was always going to be the title because it's emblematic of both of those characters and what they represent to one another.” (Ann Patchett, 23:39)

• New York is a carryover from an earlier story draft; the museum changed from the Whitney to the Met for dramatic reasons. (24:32)

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4. Rapid-Fire Book Game: Ann Patchett the Bookseller

[25:36–28:13]

In a fun “name that book” round, the hosts test Patchett’s bookstore knowledge, throwing her plot synopses to identify. Notable moment—her humorous admission:

“Everyone who reads that book writes to me because the character in the book writes to the character of Ann Patchett who writes her back. And I get sacks of mail every week from people who have read the Correspondent and it's killing me.” (Ann Patchett, 26:47)

Memorable answers:

• Dr. Zhivago
• The Correspondent by Virginia Evans
• Wizard of Oz
• Remarkably Bright Creatures
• War and Peace

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5. Conversation with Jesmyn Ward: On Witness and Respair

[34:22–42:18]

• On Formative Experiences and the Role of Family

  • Jesmyn Ward credits her mother, a housekeeper, as the driving force behind her ambition:

    “She told us as children... you're gonna go to college, and that was it. Right? You're gonna go to college.” (Jesmyn Ward, 33:14)

  • Doing housekeeping work alongside her mother was “very clarifying.” (34:22)

• The Difficulty and Regret of Not Journaling

  • Ward laments not keeping a better diary:

    “It's one of the things that I most regret right in my life, that I have not been a consistent... diary throughout.” (Jesmyn Ward, 34:47)

• Why Stay in Mississippi?

  • Ward reflects on her decision to return and remain in Mississippi despite its challenges:

    “I wanted to return home because it's the place that inspires me. Right. I love the landscape. The landscape speaks to me in a way that no other landscapes do.” (Jesmyn Ward, 36:30)

  • Discusses the cultural view that leaving equals success, but wanted to test if staying could, too. Family and authenticity also central.

    “I also returned home because I wanted to remain honest...” (Jesmyn Ward, 36:30)

• Thoughts on Imposter Syndrome

  • Despite her accolades, Ward confesses:

    “All the time... I also acknowledge the role that luck played in it, too. And I think that... acknowledging luck is good. Right. But it also... feeds that sense of imposter syndrome.” (Jesmyn Ward, 39:57)

• Best Writing Advice Received

  • Ward shares this wisdom:

    “Don't give up. Don't, don't. Don't silence yourself... The difference between the writers who actually... publish... It's simple. They just don't give. They don't give up, and they keep going, and they keep going, and they keep going.” (Jesmyn Ward, 41:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ann Patchett on embracing repetition in art:
  “Do what works. What works for whom? What works for you?” (05:02)
• On being present in all your characters:
  “Every single character in every single thing I write is completely me.” (07:35)
• On documenting everyday love:
  “I see love and kindness and goodness in my life, but the real story is the hate, the violence, the fear… This is my job, because the rest of it, Absolutely, we've got that down on paper.” (13:46)
• Jesmyn Ward on returning home:
  “To leave was to make it right. To leave was to succeed. ... Part of me wanted to know if the reverse could be true, right. If I could live and work as an artist and as an adult in Mississippi.” (36:30)
• On imposter syndrome:
  “All the time. ... It's a lot to. To reckon with.” (Jesmyn Ward, 39:57)
• Best writing advice:
  “Don't give up. Don't silence yourself.” (Jesmyn Ward, 41:23)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Ann Patchett on theme/what’s autobiographical: 05:02–09:37
• The challenge and necessity of writing about love: 12:26–13:46
• Childhood, memory, and the “danger/father/fried food” trio: 10:38–12:17
• Audience Q&A and writing process detail: 22:12–24:38
• Jesmyn Ward on family roots, returning to Mississippi: 33:14–36:30
• Imposter syndrome and writing advice: 39:57–41:23

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Tone & Style

The hosts, Charlie and Kate, bring warmth, humor, and genuine excitement as they gush over Ann Patchett and interact with the live audience. Ann Patchett is candid, witty, and reflective, often self-deprecating but always insightful. Jesmyn Ward provides a grounded and deeply personal perspective, marked by humility and gratitude.

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Ann Patchett’s Book Recommendation

[43:38]

“My favorite book that I have read in I don't know when is coming out in the middle of October and it's Yiyun Li’s Music Against the Night. So file that away in the back of your brain and remember when you see it on the shelves that I was the one who told you to read it.” (Ann Patchett, 43:38)

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For listeners seeking a deep dive into literary process, the mysterious melding of life and fiction, and honest reflection on finding and giving grace, this episode is a treasure trove. Plus, you’ll walk away with your next must-read recommendation straight from Ann Patchett herself.

Transcript

[Ann Patchett]

Experience a membership that backs your business journey with American Express Business Platinum. When you pay with membership rewards points for all or part of an eligible flight booked with a qualifying airline through Amex Travel, you can get 35% of those points back up to 1 million

[Jesmyn Ward]

points back per calendar year.

[Ann Patchett]

American Express Business Platinum. There's nothing like it. Terms apply. Learn [e-mail] Business Platinum.

[Kate]

Well, welcome, all of you. Good to have you with us for another edition of the Bookcase. And I am really excited about it because of our guest, who is a literary hero of mine, or as Katie refers to her, as a literary crush of mine.

[Charlie]

Yes. I think you find her, I think maybe the, I don't know, would the word beguiling apply? I mean, she's smart, she's intriguing, she's lovely. She's Ann Patchett.

[Kate]

Smitten.

[Charlie]

Smitten in deep Smitt. But I think when we talked to her at the store, we found out that my father is maybe one of quite a few men that have fallen in deep smit with Aunt Patchett. And so he is a member of an honored club. But no, seriously, she's written a new book called Whistler, which is, you know, I mean, what can you say about Ann Patchett? Like, it's almost commonplace how good she is, but you shouldn't hold it as commonplace at all. Whistler, I think, is another Ann Patchett masterpiece. And I loved everything about the book, so I couldn't wait to go down to Nashville to talk to her about it.

[Kate]

Yeah, that was a treat for us. We, we don't get a chance to take the podcast on the road much. And we had a twofer. We were going to talk to her and then also do a piece for Good Morning America on Whistler and the Parnassus Book Club, or Bookshop, I'm sorry, which is her bookstore in Nashville. And so that was kind of a treat to take, to take the Bookcase on the road. Nobody paid much attention to that. There were no streamers or balloons or sky riders.

[Charlie]

Boring America bus trip. But we still had a lovely audience show up and sit on the floor for us. And it was really, it was terrific. And as I say, this is, this is a wonderful book. And it was fun to go.

[Kate]

We'll give you a quick synopsis of the book in a moment. But we also, if you were listening, last week, talked to Jesmyn Ward. Jesmyn Ward has written a series of essays called On Witness and Risk, Fair Respair, R E S P A I R and we didn't get as much of the interview in as we would have liked to have done last week. And so after we do some commercials and after we've thanked Ann Patchett, we will get the rest of our conversation with Jesmyn Ward. But this book, Whistler, as you'll hear, first of all, I asked her, what's a theme of the book? And she said, oh, a theme. Well, that's just for those, you know, 10th grade questions that are at the end of some books and whatever. Well, I felt fine.

[Charlie]

You are extremely pedestrian.

[Kate]

I felt properly chastened. But Katie and I did have a lot of conversations about what is this book about? But it's the story basically of a. Of a woman in her, I think, late 50s who encounters with her husband, a man who turns out to have been married to her mother years and years and years ago. His name is Eddie. Her name is Daphne. And Daphne, when she was nine and Eddie was her stepfather, just thought he was wonderful. But they had lost contact with each other. They encounter each other at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and they strike up a relationship. And a lot of it goes to. To that relationship, which is central, I think, to the book. Right, Kate?

[Charlie]

Yes, I think it is. I think it's about this man who was all too briefly in her life, but had a profound effect on her life and how they get to know each other as adults and become friends as adults. But I think it's also a little bit about growing older and having adult parents and being parents to adult children. It's about, you know, surviving trauma together. Lots of different things that this book is about.

[Kate]

And there's a parallel story of the Horse Named Whistler, which you will understand if you read the book. It's a sort of a parallel story to Eddie and Daphne. Also. Eddie and Daphne, when she was very young, went through a traumatic automobile accident, which had a big effect on both of them. And as typical of Anne's book, so there's some surprises in it, but it is a wonderful book and it is always a treat to talk to her, whether we talk to her by remote or whether we talked to her in person at Parnassus Books, which we had a chance to do. Our conversation.

[Charlie]

The first time we talked to you, you said that one of your main missions as a writer is to always do something different and new and to challenge yourself with every new book. So what was that in Whistler?

[Ann Patchett]

I think I didn't do that in Whistler. I think in Whistler, I just forgave myself there were so many points that I thought, oh, wait, I can't do that. I've written about that before. And then I thought, I don't really care. I really just want to do what's best for the book. I had right before I started this book, I had read Yiyun Lee's book, In nature, things merely grow. And there was a quote in that book, which I typed up and taped my desk lamp, that said, do what works. What works for whom? What works for you? And so there were so many moments that I thought, oh, I want to do that, but I've done it before. And then I thought, do what works? What works for whom? What works for you?

[Kate]

Give me an example in this book.

[Ann Patchett]

Well, for example, in this book, Daphne, the main character, has three fathers. She has the father of her birthday and two stepfathers. I have written about having the exact same situation in my life. So I wouldn't want people to think that it was autobiographical. I wouldn't want people to say, well, look, the character has three fathers. She has three fathers. And then I thought, it doesn't make any difference because it works for this book. She has to have a birth father. That's one. She has to have a stepfather as an early child child, because that's what the story is about, finding her stepfather again. The mother and that stepfather got divorced when Daphne was 9. Daphne is now 53. We're not going to assume that the mother's been sitting home alone between 9 and 53. So there's going to be a third stepfather. And that tracks very closely with my life. It doesn't matter. It works for the story. Daphne doesn't have children. I don't have children. So then people say, oh, well, it must be about you. The character doesn't have children. When I was younger, I would really have worried about that. But at this point, I am in the phase of freedom and liberation in my life. And I think, yeah, neither one of us have kids. Lots of people don't have kids.

[Jesmyn Ward]

That's fine.

[Kate]

That's a sort of meme question that authors get asked, how much of you is in a book? And it seems to me that's almost something that authors want to guard against. But you're saying you embraced it in this book in a way that separates you from the characters, but still is writing what you know.

[Ann Patchett]

And a lot of my change in thinking has to do with my friend, the fabulous novelist Kevin Wilson, because Kevin and I do events together. It's how we see each other. If anybody wants to book an author event. They'll book it with both of us so we can go on a trip together. And Kevin always says, people will say to him, you know, who is the main character based on? And he'll say, oh, that's me. Well, who's the father based on? That's me. Who's the best friend? That would be me as well. And he said, every single character in every single thing I write is completely me. And I thought, well, yeah, that actually is true as well, because what else do you have? You have yourself. You have your own experience. And I thought, that's just a very relaxed way of thinking. It's a very good answer. As opposed to, oh, it's not me. Oh, it is me. Yeah.

[Charlie]

You're also the horse.

[Ann Patchett]

I am the horse. And I was such a good horse.

[Jesmyn Ward]

Yes.

[Kate]

Just whistle and Anne will come. You know, I love it that somebody actually says, it's all about me. Right. But that is interesting. You only can bring to characters what you know. If you begin to get away from that.

[Ann Patchett]

Yes.

[Kate]

Does it become harder?

[Ann Patchett]

Yes, it does. Now, there's a flip way of looking at that, which is every person has their own humanity. So you can connect with the humanity with, shall I say, the life force of anyone.

[Kate]

Katie and I had many, many conversations about this book. I would write and say, I think what Dan is trying to say is this theme. And Katie would call back and say, no, no, no, this is the basic theme. And then I would call back and say, well, I was wrong the first time. This is the basic theme. And then Katie would call me back with a fourth theme, join that conversation.

[Ann Patchett]

For me, there are many themes and no themes. I never sit down and think, this is the theme of the book. To me, that's like answering those questions in the back of a high school textbook. What is the theme? What does the author intend the theme to be?

[Kate]

But you just said to me that the relationship and love the two people have in that way. I presume you're talking about the love that her stepfather, Eddie and Daphne, have for one another based on a traumatic event and based on their common experience when he was her stepfather. Was that primacy in your mind?

[Ann Patchett]

Primacy in my mind, again, was just, how much love can I get into this book? And I don't know. Is that a theme? I don't know. But I'll tell you two things.

[Kate]

What I mean by a theme is what you come away with thinking about, okay, then.

[Ann Patchett]

Then love. Then people's ability to be kind and supportive of one another, which is something that I feel is often underrepresented in literary fiction. But two things. One is, I really do believe that if a child has one person in her life who believes in her and sees her for who she is, even if it's for a short time, even if it's not a primary person in your childhood, that love can change your entire life. That's one. The second thing is, I have no idea where I heard this or read this, but at some point years ago, I heard or read something that said the deep, deepest and greatest childhood memories contain three things. This was somebody who had done this giant study of childhood memories, like seminal joyful childhood memories. Three things. An element of danger, the presence of the father, and fried food. I wish to God I knew. Maybe somebody will hear this and say, yes, I wrote that study because that also was something that really got me going. And it's so funny how you can hear things. They lodge in your brain and then think, wait, I want to write a story about danger, a father, and fried food. And I did.

[Charlie]

You did?

[Jesmyn Ward]

You did.

[Charlie]

Did you get halfway through and you're like, oh, I need some chicken nuggets in there.

[Kate]

I know.

[Ann Patchett]

I never forgot about the chicken nuggets.

[Kate]

I'm always struck by the fact that love is a hard thing to write about.

[Ann Patchett]

It is. It is. Thank you for saying that. And I think not enough people write about it, and especially good love and enduring love and the love that we hopefully find in our lives and wish for the people that we love. But, yeah, you don't see it a lot in books.

[Kate]

It's hard to express it in ways that resonate, seems to me, with everybody. It's hard to find ways to characterize it in new ways that you might look at it differently. The same thing's true of friendship. It seems to me that deep, deep abiding friendships, which certainly have an element of love, are hard to write about, but critically important to write about.

[Charlie]

Well, and I would argue it's gotten harder, especially given the fact that anger has garnered so much attention in modern headlines. The clickbait, attention getting strategies of algorithms. It's not as. It's not cool right now.

[Ann Patchett]

I'm not cool.

[Kate]

Never mind.

[Charlie]

I think you're cool. I think you're very cool. But I'm old fashioned that way.

[Ann Patchett]

So what I always think is it's the difference between primary and secondary sources. Primary source. I see so much love and kindness every day. There are a lot of people in this room who are sources of tremendous love and kindness in My life, both to me and to one another. You know, it's coming out, but I also see people interacting. Goodness over and over again in this bookstore. Customers coming in. Kindness, generosity, thoughtfulness, a desire to connect. That's the primary source. The secondary source is the news, the Internet, television that tells us horrible things are going on in the world. That's true. Not all of it. Not all of what we see is true on the Internet, but a lot of it is. So what's the balance between that? We all seem to take the secondary source as being. As having primacy over the primary source. I see love and kindness and goodness in my life, but the real story is the hate, the violence, the fear that is away from my daily life. I understand that, but I also feel like it has been really well documented, the things that are close, the things that we see every day have not been well documented. This is my job, because the rest of it, Absolutely, we've got that down on paper.

[Charlie]

I also thought it was about learning and accepting and loving the flaws of the people. When you get older and you start to realize that everyone deserves grace because everybody's been through something and everybody's given up something, and everybody's had a tremendous amount of pain. I also thought. I said to Dad, I said, I also think it's about accepting as you get older that everybody deserves grace, whether you think they do or not.

[Ann Patchett]

Yes, I agree with that. And Daphne's relationship with her mother and how she starts to be able to see her mother not as she saw her as a child, which I think so many of us see our parents as we saw them when we were children. But she changes. I love in a novel that a relationship can change and grow and that she says, I can really see my mother as a person. Her relationship with her husband also has an arc. And it changes because I think at the beginning of the book, you think, this isn't a perfect marriage. This isn't a great marriage. Not a bad marriage, but it's an okay marriage. And by the end of the book, you think that is a very solid marriage.

[Kate]

I liked your answer about, everybody needs somebody in their lives who will come to help them. They have to find them. Which then explains to me why there's a horse in the book. There's a parallel story. And I called Kate and said, this is what the book's about. This is about knowing that there's somebody that you can call eventually that will come to help you and who sees you and who knows that you need help for 15 pages. The book is about a horse. It's even named for that horse. So I was right. You were right.

[Jesmyn Ward]

Yeah.

[Ann Patchett]

And I have something totally different to bring to that, which is I don't have children. And I don't really understand where children are at different times of their development. And the idea of telling a child a story that is completely inappropriate and wrong for the circumstances, but you don't know what you're supposed to tell them. You've never been in a car accident with a child before. You don't know what you're supposed to say. This is not his child. He doesn't know how to comfort her. And all he can think of is this story that literally had crossed his desk that day. And when he gets into the middle of it, he's like, oh, my God, this is not the right story. This is not appropriate at all. And Daphne's saying, but you can't stop. I wish you hadn't told me this, but you can't. We're in it. We're in it. We're in it together. This story. I shouldn't have told you. But we can't go back. We can't stop. And that goes back to the whole thing about the element of danger. The father, the fried food, that he is introducing a whole second level of danger in this story. But they survive.

[Kate]

But Ann, you know, Daphne obviously loved her stepfather when Eddie was her stepfather. She lived through a traumatic automobile accident with him. And it seems to me that that would be burning in her mind. And yet she's tended to have long forgotten about him and not wanted to pursue him. How come?

[Ann Patchett]

Well, she couldn't have pursued him. There would have been no way at 9 she could have pursued him. And you have to think back to the pre Internet world, but she, she scrubs him and. And that's what we do to survive when we're kids. If, if the person is gone and you have no way of getting them back, it's like a death. And she, she puts him out of her mind because otherwise it would kill her.

[Charlie]

Is Daphne the writer?

[Ann Patchett]

Yes, she is, yes. So the pieces in the car are in third person.

[Jesmyn Ward]

Yes.

[Ann Patchett]

And the rest of the story is in first person. So clearly she's telling the first person part of the story. She is the writer of that, the owner of that story. But the third person sections, which are omniscience. So you're going into Eddie's point of view and her point of view, but she is doing what Eddie asked her to do. She is going back and Writing the story.

[Charlie]

It's interesting because the last conversation that Daphne and Eddie have, and he says, you should write this, and I'll edit it. And she goes, what are you talking about? And he says, being immortal.

[Ann Patchett]

Immortality.

[Charlie]

Immortality.

[Ann Patchett]

And that's my father. And that's, again, that's autobiographical. You know, it's all of these little pieces. Where does it come from? It comes from me because that. That concept is definitely my father. And it was interesting because when I was doing the audiobook, I realized how much of this story is about my father. Totally subconsciously, not at all what I was thinking about while I was writing it. But my parents got divorced when I was four. When I was five, my mother moved us from Los Angeles to Nashville. And I saw my father one week a year, the whole time I was growing up. Because the two things, the three things that have changed. One, laws have changed, so you're not allowed to get divorced and just move your kid across the country anymore. Two, the most expensive things back then were airline tickets and long distance phone calls so we could fly. My sister and I could fly to California to see my father one week a year, who was a police officer. That was his vacation, but that was his savings for the whole year. He saved up to buy two plane tickets. And we spoke every month on the 2nd of the month, because my birthday was on the 2nd and my sister's birthday was on the 2nd. That is really sad that somebody can make a decision that I'm going to take you out of this person's life and move you to the other side of the country. My mother is a great person and a great mother, and I love her deeply. But it was the time. It was 1969. That's the way it went.

[Kate]

As part of our conversation with Ann Patchett, we actually had, as we said, an audience, most of whom had already read the book, an advanced copy of the book. And so we asked them if they had some questions for Ann Patchett.

[Ann Patchett]

So my question is the mechanics of the car accident. It was so fascinating to me how you described what was going on. How did she come up with all of that, that narrative and that, you know, defying gravity? Well, one thing that I did was I went to the grocery store and I bought a little Hot Wheels car, and I turned it on its side so that every time I would think about where they were in the car. And I could figure out, oh, she's got her feet on the wheel well. And wait, if she was going to open the window, she would have to be Able to step on an armrest? Did that car have that armrest? How many inches high is the car or wide? And then how many inches high is the girl? And this is the kind of thing you never think of until somebody asks you that question.

[Jesmyn Ward]

Okay, so you said that beginning writing this novel, you started the story in your friend Jim Fox and just that love. At what point did you want know the title of the book being Whistler and know that you wanted the COVID of the book to be Whistler?

[Ann Patchett]

Ooh, good question. So the. The title was always Whistler. There was always this horse. His name was Whistler. I had put a lot of thought into the horse's name. Go ahead and Google good names for horses. You won't find Whistler. But I looked at a lot of them. So that was. That was always going to be the title because it's emblematic of both of those characters and what they represent to one another. But I am a big believer in figuring out what I want for a cover and getting it and then giving it to my publisher when I give them the book. I don't pre sell my books. I don't let anybody read them until they're done. And there is this moment when I call and say, I'm sending you a book, and here's the COVID Enjoy.

[Jesmyn Ward]

Would this be a different book if it weren't set in New York? Why did you set it there? And why would you start it then?

[Ann Patchett]

Oh, that's a really good question. In part because the old Whistler was set in New York. So I had also done a lot of useless research into New York. And the only thing that I took was the apartment. It was the same apartment in both stories. Originally they ran into each other at the Whitney, and then I went back to the Whitney, and you would have to come out of an elevator. The stairwell at the Whitney is really just like a kind of a, you know, ugly stairwell. It's like a fire exit. So in the Whitney, everything is on the elevator. And I thought, no, it should be at the Met. And that way you have the grand stairwell to work with.

[Charlie]

Many of you know that Ann Patchett is a bookseller, but you might think that that's like sort of her side gig. I'm not sure. I think they're almost equal. She is a passionate bookseller. She is a consummate bookseller. And so my father and I wanted to put that to the test. So we gave her some simple synopses of plots of various books probably available in her store to see if she could name that book.

[Kate]

I'm going to give you a sentence and you tell me the name of the book. Okay?

[Jesmyn Ward]

Hate this.

[Kate]

A contemplative novel about a 54 year old woman who reconnects with a former stepfather at the Metropolitan Museum, prompting a heartfelt re examination of her past. Whistler your aces so far?

[Charlie]

OK, 100%.

[Kate]

A sweeping romantic tragedy following a doctor and a poet torn between his loyalty to his wife and his passionate love for the enigmatic Lara.

[Ann Patchett]

Oh, Dr. Zhivago.

[Kate]

Bingo.

[Ann Patchett]

Which hey, by the way, I never made it through Dr. Zhivago.

[Kate]

Saw the movie follows a prickly yet witty retired lawyer who uses letters to reconcile with her painful past.

[Ann Patchett]

Ah, the Correspondent. Virginia Evans don't write to me about that book. Everyone who reads that book writes to me because the character in the book writes to the character of Ann Patchett who writes her back. And I get sacks of mail every week from people who have read the Correspondent and it's killing me.

[Charlie]

Transported in a whirlwind to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first person she meets, then teams up with three strangers to kill again.

[Ann Patchett]

Wizard of Oz.

[Kate]

Oh,

[Ann Patchett]

I recently, recently read for the first time.

[Kate]

Tova, a widow working night shifts forms an unlikely friendship with a curmudgeonly giant named Marcellus.

[Ann Patchett]

Remarkably bright creatures. Thank you. I never read it.

[Kate]

And my favorite history controls everything. So we do so. So there is no point in observing individual actions. So let's examine individual actions of over 500 characters at great length.

[Ann Patchett]

Russian oh, I just talked about it. War and Peace.

[Jesmyn Ward]

Yes, sorry.

[Ann Patchett]

Thanks Genevieve for giving me the Bible. That's a good answer.

[Kate]

It is a great answer.

[Charlie]

That's a good answer.

[Ann Patchett]

That's a very good answer.

[Kate]

Yeah. This has been fun.

[Ann Patchett]

This has been fantastic.

[Kate]

Thank you.

[Ann Patchett]

Thank you so much for coming and thank all of you for coming here.

[Kate]

Foreign. And play come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs.

[Ann Patchett]

Eligible students get a year of Microsoft

[Kate]

365 Premium and a year of Xbox game Pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn [e-mail] studentoffer while supplies last ends June 30th turns at aka Ms. CollegePC

[Jesmyn Ward]

Expedia and visit Scotland. Invite you to come experience the beauty that awaits in Scotland. The sweep of wild coastlines, quiet locks and untamed landscapes. Fresh cuisine that feels rooted in the land. Come experience the kind of stillness that stays with you long after you leave. Plan your Scottish escape [e-mail] VisitScotland tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha Frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe? Or a white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries.

[Charlie]

This is such a beautiful bookstore that we were in and, and if you're in Nashville and you are a book lover, I highly recommend you go to Parnassus. It's just, it's. I mean my father said it in the GMA piece. Love of, of books just comes out of the woodwork at this store. It's really an amazing place and you should tell them also too. You have a special you are part of. It's interesting that you called Parnassus a club earlier by accident because you are a member of the Parnassus club.

[Kate]

Well, thanks to you. Ann Pashett has a first edition book club that she sends out a first edition of books, a new book every month and Kate has given us for

[Charlie]

Christmas, pardon me, that she chooses. It's very much in her taste.

[Kate]

Oh yeah, she writes.

[Charlie]

Amazing taste.

[Kate]

She puts a letter in the, in the frontest piece of the book when they send it out. And it's beautifully packaged by the way. But anyway, Katie gave it to me for Christmas, for the last two Christmases and so I have a sort of Ann Patchett shelf on my bookcase. I call them Patchett packets and I get one once a month and, and the author signs it. The authors have told us they have to sign about 1500 books so some of the signatures are not quite legible, but who cares? Anyway, as we mentioned, we talked to Jesmyn Ward last week. Her book is on Witness and Respair. R A S P A I R. We didn't know the word either, but she'll define it for you.

[Charlie]

And can I just say, I'm also sort of jumping like, Can I just say for a minute like it's one of these pinch me moments where you're talking about, it's, I mean, what a great dream job when you have to do a segue from Ann Padgett to Jesmyn Ward. Like that's just so cool. Anyway, I just wanted to insert that. That's all I just wanted to say. Like, you know, well, rest bearers.

[Kate]

If you were listening last week you found out means to. To find joy, to find recovery after despair. A word that she hadn't learned until a few years ago and thinks that it's very, very apt of the essays that are in this book. Anyway, we didn't get a chance to finish the whole conversation without making last week's podcast too long. So among the things we wanted to know is if she has a sort of imposter syndrome because she has such an unlikely background for somebody who. Who has risen to the heights of. Of literary honors. And we also asked her a little bit about why she lives in Mississippi. Why, as a young black woman who has this kind of success that she has, did she go back to Mississippi to raise her family? So you'll hear all that in this version, Week two version of Jesmyn Ward on Witness and Respair. You write about your background and extraordinary poverty as a child, but you're writing about the fact that in normal circumstances, you were in a life that would have led you to somewhat menial employment, that you would have been a laundress or a domestic or a hotel maid. What were the tripwires in your life that made you take such a remarkable turn, that led you to a life where you become a writer of such extraordinary accomplishment and renown?

[Jesmyn Ward]

I think there were many. I think that one of the first people who encouraged me and enabled me to, you know, enabled me to envision a different path, right? A different future was definitely my mom, you know, because she worked as a. As a housekeeper for many years when I was growing up. But one thing that she told us as children, me and my siblings, and I remember her telling me this when I was, like, six years old, seven years old, right? As I'm, like, learning how to read, was her telling me, you're gonna go to college, and that. That was it, right? You're gonna go to college. You're gonna go to college. But my. I think my. My mom was just such a powerful influence throughout my life. You know, when she would go on jobs, you know, housekeeping jobs when I was in junior high, and when I was in high school, she would take me with her, right? And there's nothing like doing that kind of work that clarifies. It's very clarifying, right?

[Kate]

I don't want to do this.

[Jesmyn Ward]

Yeah. I don't want to do this. I don't want to do this. And she knew that, you know, and I think that's why she made that decision, right? Because she didn't just take me. She took my brother. She took my. My younger siblings, you know, and she. So she, you know, she did what she was doing.

[Charlie]

Do you keep a Diary.

[Jesmyn Ward]

I attempt to keep a diary, and it's really.

[Ann Patchett]

It's.

[Jesmyn Ward]

It's one of the things that I most regret right in my life, that I have not been a consistent. You know, I have not kept a consistent sort of diary throughout, especially because, you know, one of the reasons that I wrote a very, very, very rough draft about what happened to us during Katrina in We Don't Swim in Our Cemeteries was because I knew in that moment that so much had occurred, and I knew that I would forget some details, and I didn't want to forget the details. And so I, you know, made a very conscious decision to sit down and write that rough draft, knowing that it would be half formed and imperfect, but just so that I could get those details down. And I wish that I had, you know, committed to doing that in a diary throughout my life. Because. Because, you know, as I said, I'm. I'm almost 50. The memory. My memory is not what it once was, and I. And I wish that I had. I mean, I. I've kept diaries throughout my life, but, you know, I'll be really disciplined and, you know, consistent for a couple months, and then I'll lose track of it. And then the next year, I'll be consistent for a couple months and then lose track of it. And so, yeah, so I wish that I actually had the. Had diaries as a resource to pull from so that I could remember all

[Kate]

the details, I think, central to my reading of this book. Why did she return to Mississippi? Why go back to Mississippi to live and to raise your children? When you say, I hope, I hope, I hope that my son will live to be an adult.

[Jesmyn Ward]

Right. I get asked that question a lot, I bet, and I feel like it's one. I'll bet you that, yeah, that is a difficult question to answer. It sort of feels like I have a different, I don't know, answer every time for that. For that question. That is a question that I will struggle to answer probably for the rest of my life, because that answer has, like, I don't know, at least what I figured out of it. There are, like, multiple components to it, Right. So first, I wanted to return home to Mississippi because. Because it's the place that inspires me. Right. I love the landscape. The landscape speaks to me in a way that no other landscapes do. Some have gotten close to moving me in the way that that home does. This was common, right. In my peer group. You know, a lot of people, a lot of young people in my community thought. Thought this way. But, you know, to leave Was to make it right. To leave was to succeed. You know, if you remained, it was almost as if you failed. Right. And so I just. I don't know, part of me wanted to know if the reverse could be true, right. If I could live and work as an artist and as an adult in Mississippi. And also, you know, I came back for family. Family is always a part of that answer. Family and my community. I was just homesick. You know, I missed. I missed my mom, I missed my siblings. You know, I missed my community. I missed my grandmother. I missed my aunts and uncles. I missed my cousins. So, yeah, so I really. I missed my family. It felt like I'd spent. You know, I left home at 18 and. And then I returned when I was around 33, you know, so I spent all those years out in the world and. And I was homesick the entire time. And I was al. Always I felt lonely a lot, I think, and in a way that I never feel that same sense of loneliness when I'm at home. There's different. Different kinds of loneliness, but not that specific kind of loneliness. I also returned home because I wanted to remain honest, because it's one of my fears, right? Because there are some writers whose early work I really. I love, I admire. I think it's so powerful, right? And then as they advance in their careers, I don't know, I feel like sometimes they perhaps lose that connection to, I don't know, the people who made their work so powerful and so moving in the first place. And so I think that I was really afraid of that happening with me and with my work. But some new understanding that I've come to is that when I consider myself and my family and my community, I understand the fact that I'll never lose that connection. And so I don't have to worry about, I don't know, sort of cementing it with. By being in this. In the. In the location.

[Kate]

Just a final question for me, and I guess it gives you a chance to be a little fulsome. Does it sometime amazes you? Do you have the imposter syndrome? Why did I deserve this all the time?

[Jesmyn Ward]

All the time. And I feel like, especially with this collection, right? Because here I'm looking at, you know, I'm looking at a piece that I worked that I wrote or I wrote, you know, I don't know, the. The base of when I was 26 years old, right? And again, I mean, almost, what, 24, 23, 24 years, right? Since that. And. And I'm looking at work that Sort of spans my entire career. It's surreal. I feel, Yes, I worked hard. Yes, I, you know, challenged myself. Yes, I studied. Yes, I sought out support and community and then teachers and mentors. But I also acknowledge the role that luck played in it, too. And I think that. That, you know, like, acknowledging luck is good. Right. But it. But it also, I think, sometimes feeds that sense of imposter syndrome and sort of insecurity. Right. Because I do think, like, why me?

[Charlie]

Right.

[Jesmyn Ward]

Out of all the. First of all the people and then all of the writers. Right. Why? Why? How do I find myself in this moment that I am, you know, very grateful for? But it. It's. It is a. It's a lot to. To reckon with.

[Charlie]

Best piece of advice you've ever received about writing.

[Jesmyn Ward]

Oh, don't give up. Don't, don't. Don't silence yourself. You know, and I think the first iteration of that. I heard that from Nicolas Delbanco, you know, because he gave our sort of workshop something of a pep talk. And he, you know, one of the things he said, he was like, you're all talented. We know you all have talent. That's why you're here. But the difference between the writers who actually who continue to create art and publish and the writers who don't, who complete this program and who don't, you know, the writers who publish, it's simple. They just don't give. They don't give up, and they keep going, and they keep going, and they keep going.

[Kate]

Jesmyn Ward, you have a gift. People are so lucky that you're able to express it and say things that need to be said. Thank you for talking to us. We've taken a lot of your time, and we really appreciate it. Yeah.

[Charlie]

Thank you so much, and thank you for this book.

[Jesmyn Ward]

Thank y' all.

[Charlie]

Again. I just want to fangirl out for a minute. We start with Ann Patchett. We end with Jesmyn Ward.

[Jesmyn Ward]

What a cool show.

[Charlie]

I have such a great job. We will go to Ann Patchett for a coda after we remind you about the great folks that make this podcast possible. And, you know, I gotta say, you gotta. Speaking of fangirl out, if you're somebody who writes a book and Ann Patchett falls in love with it, you just. And she sings your praises. I mean, how cool must that be, too? So Ann Patchett's code is actually a book recommendation, the book that she thinks

[Kate]

will be the book of the year.

[Charlie]

Yes. And she's got some gains, so who knows? But anyway, a closing thought from Ann Patchett. Thanks for joining us this week. We'll see you next week.

[Kate]

The Bookcase with Kate and Charlie is a joint production of Good Morning America and ABC Audio. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions and our executive producer is Simone Swing. We want to make special mention of Amanda McMaster, Sabrina Kohlberg and Ariel Chester of ABC Good Morning America and Josh Cohan of ABC Audio. You can follow us and rate and review this podcast wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like to find any of the books mentioned on this podcast, you can find them listed in the episode description.

[Ann Patchett]

I'm a bookseller, so I want to tell you what to read. And my favorite book that I have read in I Don't Know when is coming out in the middle of October and it's Eun Lee's Music against the Night. So file that away in the back of your brain and remember when you see it on the shelves that I was the one who told you to read it.

[Jesmyn Ward]

I'm Kiana and I leveled up my business with Shopify. Once I figured out that Shopify was a thing, I never turned back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business, but Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like I can't stop. I'm addicted. Start your free [e-mail].