Loading summary

Transcript157 lines

[00:01]
Chris Bojalian
Ouch.
[00:02]
Kate
This knee is killing me. But I can't stop training.
[00:05]
Lisa Plum
The marathon is in two weeks. Let's get on ZOCDOC and find a doctor to take a look at that for you.
[00:10]
Kate
Okay, Here's a review.
[00:12]
Lisa Plum
Dr. Craddock really takes his time.
[00:14]
Kate
No, I don't have time.
[00:16]
Lisa Plum
What about Dr. Charles? His patients say he can help find a quick fix. And he's in network. Great.
[00:21]
Kate
Now we're talking.
[00:22]
Lisa Plum
Ah, book it.
[00:23]
Kate
Booked.
[00:24]
Lisa Plum
One mile down, 19 to go.
[00:26]
Kate
Bring it on. You've got options. Download the ZOCDOC app today. Well, hello bookcasers. It's the first bookcase in August, so it's like August has officially begun for you. It is the bookcase with Kate and Charlie. And I am the Kate part of
[00:49]
Charlie Gibson
that little equation and I'm the Charlie part. And I, I want listeners to know what a heroic co host I have. She has hauled herself out of a sickbed, a cold that is, that would do Antarctica proud. She's been sneez, been coughing, she's been sniffling. But the bookcase comes first and she's going to get out of bed and do it, even in her direst moment. Congratulations, Kate.
[01:14]
Lisa Plum
Thank you.
[01:15]
Kate
From sniffling to expectorating, here I am to share with all of you people the germs on my microphone. No, I. You know, it's the summer cold that we're passing around my house. It's the gift that keeps on giving.
[01:27]
Lisa Plum
You love it. I love it.
[01:29]
Charlie Gibson
Anyway, her son has it, her daughter Charlie. She can just be anticipating it.
[01:35]
Kate
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[01:36]
Lisa Plum
It's just a gift.
[01:37]
Charlie Gibson
And this way we can leave your coughs and your sniffles in. It's really good. It's Kate, her microphone and a box of Kleenex. Chris Bojalian is with us today. He Of 25 novels written, movies that have evolved from same plays written and a new book out the Amateur is the book and it's a very personal one. I think Kate so personal as people will hear in our conversation that he finds it impossible to talk about the incident in his life that partially inspired the book.
[02:09]
Kate
Well, I mean he talks about writers having an incident in their life that inspires them to write. And the main character in this book, Mira, has her life before and her life after incident in the sense that she's a. She's a teenage golfer, she's very, very, very good. Everybody at the club that she's a member of talks about her. And one day she has a freak accident. She hits a golf ball and she kills A caddy. And after that, she doesn't want to play golf anymore, of course, and her life is thrown into turmoil. I loved this book for many reasons, but a good part of the reason I loved it was because I thought he did an amazing job of writing from Mira's perspective as she ages with this horrible incident in her life as a woman. It is really easy to tick me off if you are a male writer and you attempt to write from the female perspective and you fail, it's a challenge that you don't have to put forth for yourself. So if you fail at it, I get very tsky tsky. But I thought Mira was written so beautifully, and I remembered reading some of Chris's previous work. So I looked up how much of Chris's work is written from the female perspective, and the answer is more than the male. And he has talked about it. In fact, he wrote a great substack entry about it where he basically said, look, I put a lot of myself in my characters. I'll be the first to admit that as an author, I put a lot of myself into my characters. And so the first thing I can do to disguise myself, to give myself freedom, is to be a woman. And I also think that the female perspective is in some ways more interesting than the males. So I will give him both thumbs up on that and also just say again, it's something that Jay Ryan does well, my friend Jay Ryan, that I admire him for. When you can really get into the psyche of women and write them well, I'm a big admirer. Yeah.
[03:58]
Charlie Gibson
Authors also, I would add, have told us over the years of our podcasting that they either carefully plot out their novels in advance or they begin with no plan at all and just let the story sort of come to them as they write. And I would urge listeners to read this book with that in mind. Chris tells us, as you'll hear in our discussion, that he starts with no plan. He just started with the idea of a caddy, a golfer, and a moment that changed everything. And as I look back on my thoughts as I read the Amateur, I can sort of feel the story coming to him, coming in chunks as it evolves into a novel of mystery leading to a trial at the end. And he tells us he didn't anticipate this was going to wind up with a trial at the end. But he does.
[04:44]
Kate
You say that he didn't sit down with the plan. He literally wrote this novel in 90 days, which is not something we would recommend unless you are an experienced author, because Reading this book, it certainly doesn't feel like a slapdash effort that he put together in 90 days. It feels well constructed. He nails the landing. I was very impressed that someone could turn this out in 90 days. Would that I could someday.
[05:09]
Charlie Gibson
Yeah, well, you got to get over your cold first. Anyway.
[05:12]
Kate
Can't even turn a cold out in 90 days.
[05:14]
Charlie Gibson
Here's our. Here's our conversation with Chris Bojalian. Chris Bojalian, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Really a great treat. The Amateur is the book. We've been doing this podcast now for five years, and every author that we have talked to has their own way of doing things. But if there has been any consistent theme, I guess it's that writing is hard. A novel takes years. It's multiple drafts. And yet I read that you knocked this puppy off in 90 days. How'd you do that?
[05:49]
Chris Bojalian
I did. This was my secret novel. I wrote this book. Yes, in 90 days, which even by my standards is fast. No one knew I was writing it. It was the summer of 2024, and I had this idea for a book about what if one of those before and after moments that we all have was spectacularly tragic but unavoidable. I was a caddy for summers, many summers, and so I decided to begin there. I didn't tell my wife what I was writing, and she's read every one of the 3.8 million words I've written before they were published. I didn't tell our amazing daughter. I didn't tell my brilliant editor, Jenny Jackson. I didn't tell my agents on two coasts, because the premise of the book struck me as so wild that I was afraid the elevator pitch would end the book before I had written it. Now, everyone assumed I was doing something because I'm always writing, but they also knew to give me space. And at the end of 90 days, the last Monday in August of 2024, I tucked the rough draft into an email, addressed it to my wife, our daughter, my editor, my agents, and put as the subject line simply how I spent my summer vacation and pressed send. And I was really gratified that everyone on that email chain had read it by Tuesday at lunchtime, and none of them thought I had lost my mind writing this book.
[07:30]
Kate
So you have this main character, Vera. She's the layering up of a lot of different things. A golfer, a writer, a woman seduced easily by older men. How does she come together in your head and in your writing?
[07:41]
Chris Bojalian
When I was writing this, this particular novel, as with all of my other books, whether they took 90 days to write or two or three years, I had no idea where the book was going. I depend on my characters to take me by the hand and lead me through the dark of the story. All I had was the basic premise and the narrative voice. The premise a novelist finally writing a memoir about her life and her guilt and the before and after moment that derailed her life. And a caddy. And the caddy was me, based on my years as a caddy. And that part of the book was going to be the class divide in America. That's all I knew when I started, for instance, I had no idea it was going to build to a courtroom drama. I knew there was going to be, or I suspected there was going to be at least one older predatory male at the golf course. But I had no idea that there would be other men abusing and preying upon Mira Winston when she was a young woman.
[08:57]
Kate
My favorite passages of the book are when Mira is reflecting on herself as a writer and when she's finding herself as a writer. And on page 115 you write, I looked at the Fine Point Bic pens he kept in a mug on his desk and the stack of yellow legal pads beside it and wondered how he began. How did he find that first sentence? How do you usually I hear the
[09:21]
Chris Bojalian
first sentence in my head, whether it's a book like Midwives or whether it is a book like the Amateur. I hear that first sentence and make that decision. Is this going to be the first person narrator with a quirky, idiosyncratic voice that makes first person really work? Or does this story demand a third person, Jamesian, omniscient narrator? And there are advantages to both. The wonderful thing about first person past in this case is that you can have a lot of dread and foreshadowing without it being shoehorned into the manuscript. When I finished that first draft, I did something I've never done before with a novel. I gave it a table of contents. And it's a really short table of contents. It is merely three parts, but each part is a title. The first part, there won't be a trial. There will never be a trial. The second part, the season of depositions, and the third part, the trial. So if you are approaching the book from the very beginning, hopefully there will be that sense of both dread and betrayal. And dread is clearly my jam. When my books work, and heaven knows they do not always work, but when they work, dread is what keeps you turning the pages.
[10:54]
Kate
That first sentence for this book. Did you know you wanted to present it as a first character memoir when you, when you heard that first sentence?
[11:02]
Chris Bojalian
I did. But I also knew I was going to do two things with a prologue. One of the things I loved about the prologue is that up until the very end of the prologue, you are supposing this is a third person omniscient novel. There we are with a bird's eye view of the practice net at the country club in the caddies and the first golfers arriving. And then there's a golf ball powering through the net and killing Kenny Foster. And then there is Mira Winston saying, I know because I was there. I was the girl who hit the golf ball.
[11:44]
Charlie Gibson
The amateur. Put me in mind of. Of John Irving's the World According to Garp. Garp is fearful always of the undertowed. The moment that something catastrophic will happen that changes everything. Mira has that moment when, as you say, her golf ball smashes into the head of a caddy and kills him. You talked about personal experiences being such a part of this book. Have you always been worried about such a moment?
[12:14]
Chris Bojalian
Always. Oh my goodness gracious, always. And there. There's so much autobiographic minutiae in this book. Kate, you were talking about the fine point Bic pens and the yellow legal pads. Well, I wrote my entire first novel. Good gracious. I wrote my entire first published novel and my first novel that was never published, using fine point Bic pens and yellow legal pads and counting the words meticulously because I was writing between 5 and 7am in the morning before going to my job at an ad agency in New York City. My lovely bride was sound asleep in our tiny 520 square foot apartment in Brooklyn. And yes, I really did once have a creative writing professor at my illustrious alma mater tell me I was not good enough to be taking her creative writing seminar after reading one of my stories and said to me, be a banker.
[13:12]
Kate
I do get the sense you're having fun with the autobiographical details that you use when Mira breaks the fourth wall.
[13:19]
Chris Bojalian
I do, I do. And some of them are the sorts of things that I'm very comfortable sharing now that my parents have both died. But I was really proficient at watering down the Cutty Sark. Even at the age of eight, I knew exactly how much I could get away with when I would pour the booze down the sink and fill it with water so that their evenings would be a tad less. Edward Alby, who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf, esque.
[13:45]
Charlie Gibson
Well, Mira, as an adult, does Become a writer. A writer, as she tells us, who has written 25 novels, has had movies adapted from her novels, has written three plays. Chris Pajali. And I can't help but notice that you've written 25 novels, that you've written three plays, that you've had movies made of your novels. A coincidence? I think not.
[14:08]
Kate
He did research.
[14:10]
Charlie Gibson
Why did you do this? Why did you make it so autobiographical?
[14:15]
Kate
And did you know when you embarked on this book when you're like, okay, I'm gonna make her a caddy, therefore she has to be a writer, therefore I'm gonna have fun putting my voice all over it.
[14:23]
Chris Bojalian
Some of it are, are simply little Easter eggs that entertained me and I hope will entertain some of my more attentive readers. But again, part of it is also my own way of acknowledging all of the mistakes I've made in my life. Mira has made a boatload of mistakes. I love Mira, I really do. And I like her. And I must admit it, it drives me crazy sometimes when people say, oh, I love the book. But I don't know if I like Mira because she's so prickly. Like at one point a book group says to her, oh, you're nicer when you're drinking. But all the stuff that people don't necessarily love about Mira are things that they need to cut her some slack on. I mean, first of all, since the age of 15 years old, she's being essentially raped because you don't have consent at 15 by one of her father's friends at the golf club. And she's viewing it as an affair. She's sexually assaulted by a high school senior. Her parents are functional alcoholics who clearly love her older brother more than her. So yeah, she acts out between the ages of 18 and 21 and makes some arguably not great choices. But the reality is that a lot of the things that mirror does in that period, I did, but I was a boy, not a girl. So instead of people viewing me as difficult, they viewed me as the life of the party.
[15:59]
Charlie Gibson
When you were a caddy, Chris, did you see man? And I guess I mean men, did you see man at his best or at his worst?
[16:09]
Chris Bojalian
I never saw men at their absolute worst because when we see men at their worst, we see nightmares like Ukraine. And I really did figure out during my second summer caddying that men spoke to each other differently on the golf course than they did at my parents parties or they did in other places where I saw adult men. And is one of the things Mira says in the Book. I think golf was invented simply so that men would talk to each other. You never have to make eye contact. You're staring down the long fairway and walking straight ahead. You're keeping an eye on your ball so it doesn't go mia you're staring down at the ball. So some of the men would talk to each other about things they would never have spoken about, I believe, had they been doing so many other things, whether it's tennis or going to a bar.
[17:05]
Charlie Gibson
I asked the question also because there are some surprises in the book. But one of the really interesting surprises to me was the last word in
[17:15]
Kate
the novel before the epilogue.
[17:17]
Charlie Gibson
Yep. And I don't want to give it away, but I came away thinking this is much more on Chris's mind as he wrote this novel than I thought. And I thought that that was a really, really interesting way to end it. A single word.
[17:33]
Chris Bojalian
Thank you. And I, I. That was a factor in my mind. It was pretty early into the book. As soon as the first male golfer comes onto Mira when she's 15 years old, I understood that as much as this would have a lot of John Irving in it, whether it's the World According to Garp or A Prayer for Own Meaning, it was also going to have a lot of Lolita
[17:55]
Kate
and a little bit of Nathaniel Hawthorne thrown in as well. This is, again, one of my favorite passages for Mira as a writer. This memoir exists partly because I did not want Kenny Foster to be lost to time, but also because it was his death that made me a writer. And it was his death that was the most singular event in my life. Do you have an event like that?
[18:15]
Chris Bojalian
I do, I do.
[18:16]
Kate
Would you be willing to share it?
[18:19]
Chris Bojalian
Boy, you know, I never have.
[18:22]
Kate
Okay.
[18:22]
Chris Bojalian
And I'm not going to now as a courtesy.
[18:25]
Kate
That's fine.
[18:27]
Chris Bojalian
Family. But yeah, there, there is.
[18:29]
Kate
There's an event that sat you down and you're like, I have to get this off my chest. And do you think that's true for most writers?
[18:35]
Chris Bojalian
I think it's true for everyone. Every. Every human being on the planet has, though, have those before and after moments that are life altering. Some are wonderful and some are cataclysmic. And I, you know, no one gets out alive. I have my own cataclysms. And there is one particular moment in my adolescence that has dogged me forever. And I don't go a day without
[18:59]
Charlie Gibson
thinking about, is it. Without revealing what it was. Was it contributory to your making yourself believe that you could be a writer?
[19:10]
Chris Bojalian
I wanted to be A writer before it happened. But I knew once the shock was behind me that this was something that was going to exist in me and someday in my work.
[19:25]
Kate
Chris Bodalian, thank you so much. This was a terrific book. We really enjoyed the read. The Amateur is the name. We could not recommend it more highly. Go pick it up. Thank you for joining us.
[19:36]
Chris Bojalian
Okay, Charlie, thank you so much for having me. And thank you for all you do on behalf of what words and reading and books can mean to the soul.
[19:44]
Charlie Gibson
That's a nice way to put it. Thank you. As you heard him say, Chris was a caddy himself for a couple of summers, and I got a kick out of reading that. He found men talk more on the golf course than they do in other. Other places because. Because they don't have to look at each other as they walk down the fairway or focus on a putt. I don't play golf anymore, but I found that to be true.
[20:10]
Kate
I know if you are taking somebody to a ball game, chances are that you are working through something with them. So you may not be on the links, but you have your own love language.
[20:19]
Charlie Gibson
Well, but the thought's the same. I mean, you're looking at the ball game or you're looking down the fairway, and that's when men will talk to each other. So. So I did learn more about some of my partners on a golf course than I think I would have in some other ven. And two, I would add, I heard some jokes that they would never tell in mixed company, and that made playing golf sort of fun. But we didn't get into that with the.
[20:45]
Kate
No, but I think one of the things he does very well in this book is to discuss country clubs as a microcosm of class structure. Sure, it's a very specific and first world way of looking at class struggle, but it's an interesting way of looking at class struggle. And he does a really nice job of that in this book, which, again, is very impressive if you're writing it in 90 days.
[21:06]
Charlie Gibson
Yeah, I think. I fear I'm going to sound like some of those suggested questions, you know, that come at the end of a textbook. But when you read the Amateur, I'm curious if the last word in the book that we talked about a little bit there, if the last word in the book changes in any way your thoughts about what purpose Chris had in mind in writing the book. I don't want to give it away, but if you read this book, don't peek ahead to see what the last word is. But do think about it when, when you get there. I think it's one more layer of
[21:38]
Kate
intrigue and I think it's an amazing way to stick the landing. He did a really nice job of that.
[21:45]
Charlie Gibson
So we'll take a break. We'll come back with some rapid fire questions for Chris after these messages. Foreignoc we know being a healthy adult is like living in a video game.
[22:02]
Lisa Plum
Every day has side quests, taxes, laundry, birthdays, and just when you're leveling up,
[22:07]
Charlie Gibson
you have to book a doctor. The insurance portal crashes, they put you on hold.
[22:11]
Lisa Plum
Your doctor doesn't take your plan.
[22:13]
Charlie Gibson
Game over. We see you.
[22:16]
Lisa Plum
So we made booking a doctor easy. Download Zoc Sockdoc Search by specialty, insurance and availability.
[22:21]
Charlie Gibson
Book instantly.
[22:22]
Lisa Plum
No cheat codes required.
[22:24]
Charlie Gibson
Find a doctor you love with Sock Doc hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile Now. I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills. But it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my base. Big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com switch upfront payment
[22:48]
Lisa Plum
of 45 for three months, $90 for six months or 180 for a 12 month plan required 15 per month equivalent taxes and fees Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy.
[22:56]
Charlie Gibson
See Terms hi, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.
[22:58]
Lisa Plum
Are you looking for a beach read this summer?
[23:00]
Charlie Gibson
May I suggest your big wireless bill? It's got suspense, mystery, a slightly flat emotional arc, and a shocking twist where you realize you've been overpaying the entire time time.
[23:10]
Lisa Plum
Fortunately though, Mint story is better.
[23:11]
Charlie Gibson
Every plan $15 a month, even unlimited.
[23:14]
Lisa Plum
That's it.
[23:14]
Charlie Gibson
Happy ending, zero tears. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment
[23:19]
Lisa Plum
of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees extra initial plan term only greater than 50gb. Me slow when network is busy. See Terms.
[23:32]
Kate
Rapid fire Questions for Chris Bojaling Lesser known book you recommend to everyone all
[23:38]
Chris Bojalian
the World can hold by Jung Yoon. It is one of the funniest, smartest and yet most moving books ever. I've read about 9 11. It is a novel about people the week after 911 who leave Boston on a cruise.
[23:55]
Charlie Gibson
What is the last novel you read that made you say to yourself, damn, I wish I'd written that.
[24:01]
Chris Bojalian
Everything was beautiful and Nothing Hurt by Ben Reeves. I finished it yesterday, and a lot of times I view writing a novel like an Olympic gymnast's floor routine. You can be spectacular for 2 minutes and 55 seconds, and if you don't stick the landing, it's a disaster. He really stuck the landing.
[24:24]
Charlie Gibson
In 25 novels, you've created a lot of characters. Is there one that really sticks with
[24:30]
Chris Bojalian
you the most, other than Mera Winston and Kenny Foster? My SuperEGO and my ID in the Amateur, I'm going to say Emily shepherd from Close your eyes, hold hands. You know that expression sold like hotcakes? Well, close your eyes, hold hands, sold like whatever is the opposite of hotcakes. Which is fine. But Emily shepherd is my teenager trying to keep it together after a meltdown at Vermont's lone nuclear plant. And now she's among the refugees in Burlington, Vermont, living in an igloo made of trash bags. A homeless orphan. I love her. And so few readers found that book that I feel bad for Emily because I think her story is beautiful.
[25:19]
Kate
Most idiosyncratic object on your desk.
[25:23]
Chris Bojalian
Most idiosyncratic object is not on my desk because I keep my desk so immaculately clean. But to my right, if I were to turn the camera, you would see all of these small rocks. They are from Van Di Arbekir, Engineer, and other parts of Eastern Turkey where the Armenian genocide occurred, because I'm a grandson of survivors of the Armenian genocide, and six times I've gone to visit the unmarked mass graves that mass Anatolia and Silesia, and I often bring back rocks.
[25:57]
Kate
Three authors you will read just because they wrote it.
[26:01]
Chris Bojalian
Oh, well, we've certainly got to begin with my brilliant editor. She's only written two books, but they're both fantastic. I know Jenny Jackson. I think Jenny Jackson is just an absolutely magnificent storyteller. One of the most astute observers of human nature and hilarious. I love Jenny Jackson's work. I will read anything, of course, by John Irving. We've been talking about John a bit in this podcast, but I think John is also so smart and is such a profoundly accurate moral compass. And finally, I'm going to say I will read Anything by Alice Hoffman, because I think we share this delight in both female empowerment and the weirdness of witchcraft, real or imagined.
[26:51]
Charlie Gibson
We just talked to Jenny.
[26:52]
Kate
We did.
[26:53]
Charlie Gibson
I love the shampoo effect. I like Pineapple street, but she said. I think she said in. In when we talked to her, Kate, what she really loves is being the editor at Knopf. That. That is.
[27:04]
Kate
That is her first love.
[27:06]
Charlie Gibson
That is her first love.
[27:07]
Kate
Yeah. Yeah. And she's brilliant at it. She's just brilliant at it.
[27:10]
Chris Bojalian
Yeah, she's really sluggish. She's really slumming. Continuing to edit me. When you look at the brilliant editor, the brilliant writers on her list.
[27:18]
Charlie Gibson
Have you ever asked for an autograph when you were a kid or even as an adult?
[27:22]
Chris Bojalian
Yes, I have somewhere still autographs from a lot of golfers when they would be at the Westchester Classic from back in the day, whether it's Lee Trevino or. Or Jack Nicklaus. I have autographs from some of the 1969 Mets from when I was a very, very little boy. And I actually cherish a lot of my signed books. Books signed by authors who are dramatically more talented than I am.
[27:52]
Kate
Best piece of advice you've ever received on writing.
[27:55]
Chris Bojalian
The best piece I've ever received on writing Jodi Picoult. Jody said essentially this. It's always easier to edit garbage than a blank page. So just get the words down on paper.
[28:12]
Charlie Gibson
Once again, our thanks to Chris. We have a bookstore this week, Kate. It's Elderberry and Plum. It's a new store with an intriguing name in an historic building in Springfield, Illinois. It's owned by Lisa Plum and Tom Elder. Well, I'm sorry, that sort of gives away the origin of the name. But here's our conversation with Lisa Plum. Lisa Plum of Elderberry and Plum. A bookstore that I think sounds like a fruit cocktail. But it's a wonderful name, I think.
[28:44]
Lisa Plum
I love it. I think it sounds like something out of Harry Potter's.
[28:47]
Kate
It would be next to Flourish and Bath, right?
[28:49]
Charlie Gibson
Well, you're in business with your brother, Tom Elder, so it fits very nicely, I think, the name. But you're brand new to the business. So tell me how it's going so far. You just opened at the beginning of July.
[28:58]
Kate
Yay. Yep.
[28:59]
Lisa Plum
I mean, we have been blown away by the support by the community. We've had a lot of tourists coming through. Cause we are right off Route 66. And so that's a big, historic year this year and a lot of celebrations. It's been great. How were you smart enough, lucky enough,
[29:17]
Kate
miserable enough, silly enough, crazy enough to open a bookstore?
[29:20]
Lisa Plum
Fill in your adjective. My son and I were having lunch across the street, and when I saw this building for sale, I was like, should we just go look at it? And he was like, mother, no. Because he could see the twinkle in my eye. And the house looks like something from the Garden District in New Orleans. And so I was like, well, let's just Take a peek. And so from the moment I walked in, I could just feel like a puzzle connecting and all the pieces coming together. So it was really special just from that initial reaction to the store and then learning about the history and being able to walk through each room and. And it did remind me of Beacon Hill in Boston, so. And you could see what it was going to become.
[30:12]
Charlie Gibson
So this is an historic house in Springfield, Illinois, right?
[30:15]
Lisa Plum
It is. It's a part of the Cook family. So as soon as I walked in, I could tell this was someplace that you just. I've only had it happen a couple times in my life when I met my husband, the colleges that I went to, but I just knew I belonged here. And I did not have it on my radar. I was going to open a bookstore, but as soon as I walked in, that's what was going to happen. And it was with a hundred percent certainty. So.
[30:41]
Charlie Gibson
Really?
[30:42]
Lisa Plum
Yeah, it was really neat. And the owner was here, and so she walked me through the house. Each room was. It's. It's so unique. And you could tell that the house had been loved for generations, different owners, but it was just a really special space. And so I waited a year. I went through all the business analytics with Tom. I went through, like, city coding. I had contractors just give me their opinions that are good friends of mine. And then everyone just reported it, which you typically wouldn't expect from a bookstore idea.
[31:20]
Kate
So you run it by your brother. You run it by accountants and business people and construction folks. But now you gotta tell your husband, you want this bookstore, and you gotta make the case that it's a good investment. So how do you do that?
[31:33]
Lisa Plum
So here's the thing, is that we are both tenured salespeople.
[31:36]
Kate
Got it.
[31:37]
Lisa Plum
So you have to have your sales pitch very refined. You have to be 100% certain, bulletproof of any objections that you're gonna have to handle. Got it. So I came in, ready, and he didn't have a chance. But no, he. We came in and I said, we didn't even come in the inside. I said, babe, there's a house. We're gonna drive by. I want to buy it. We have a family insurance agency. Died recently, two years ago, taken over. I'm like, I think we're gonna move the insurance agency to the second floor, and I'm gonna open a bunch of. On the first floor. Here's the house. What do you think? And he was like, you should go for it.
[32:15]
Charlie Gibson
Now, you mentioned one of our Kate's and my favorite bookstores which is Beacon Hill Books in Boston. It's a bookstore that has a wonderful vibe. So you obviously did some research in looking at bookstores to come up with what kind of impression you wanted the store to make as somebody walks in. What was that?
[32:33]
Lisa Plum
So I'm lucky enough to get to travel. And again, this wasn't on my radar of opening a bookstore. It was just something personally. Whenever I travel, I will go to different indie bookstores, different churches, and just speaking the architecture, but it's time I get to myself. But Beacon Hill was a key one. Faulkner bookstore in New Orleans has been so instrumental in not only the management and trying to manifest what makes bookstore special and the curation of it, but also just from the back end of understanding how to order, how to sell, how to try to network through in this. Sometimes post communities. So. So they've been really helpful. Same thing with writer's block in Las Vegas. They were. They gave me such sound advice coming up. It's really.
[33:25]
Kate
It's really.
[33:25]
Lisa Plum
It's the most supportive business I've ever seen. Like in no other business will people give away their trade secrets the way they do in a bookstore.
[33:33]
Kate
You want bookcases that are this high, not this high. And here's what we've discovered about this, and here's what we do on Indie
[33:39]
Lisa Plum
Bookstore Day, and here's what you might try. And it's really a fascinating business that way. Tom and I came from a very corporate setting. So for us, it's like, it's so heartwarming, it's so genuine, because it's not only just on the bookstore side, on the indie side, but it's also being a local business owner, because the city of Springfield and all the local surrounding businesses have just opened up to us for collaborations, for helping us promote. They're like, if you win, we win. Just, we're all in this together, so let's lift each other up.
[34:14]
Kate
Since you've been open in the last month, what has surprised you the most?
[34:17]
Lisa Plum
I think I was hoping that this would be a special place where people made memories. But what I didn't anticipate was people getting dressed up to come to the bookstore and making a day of it with their friends or their kids or a loved one, and then going across the street for tea and for French baguettes. And they've made it a whole event, obviously.
[34:41]
Kate
Your partner's Tom Elder. You're Lisa Plum. Tell me about the. We are gonna name the store because, like I say, it sounds like something on Diagon Alley. For Harry Potter.
[34:50]
Lisa Plum
So.
[34:51]
Kate
So, like, what names were you tossing around? What were the names less traveled by?
[34:55]
Lisa Plum
Okay, so this is a very common. If you have the last name Tony here, sugar pun a lot. And Tom vetoed that as quickly as it came out of my mouth because he knows that if I had my druthers, this place would look like Versailles. Everything would be pink and glitter. And he's like, lisa, there's men that are going to want to come to the bookstore, and you can't call it Sugarcane, so just let's move past that. So he came up with the name. Good. I love it.
[35:23]
Charlie Gibson
You must have financial goals in mind, thinking about what you need to do. I don't want to know what they are, but how far down the road
[35:30]
Kate
Are you kicking its butt?
[35:32]
Charlie Gibson
Yeah, exactly. Are you kicking butt?
[35:34]
Lisa Plum
We're doing great. And it's only because the community, honestly, and people. I saw a real on social media where Ann Patrick said that there's no secret to selling a book. It's not about doing a circuit. It's about reading a book that other people recommend. And it's kind of applied to our bookstore, thankfully, is that people thought they recommended it, they posted it. And so we've been really fortunate. We're looking at expanding. We have a building that we're going to turn into a cottage, hopefully have it open for Christmas in the holidays.
[36:08]
Kate
What are those two specialties be if you expand? I don't want you to give away too much, but I was holding off
[36:13]
Lisa Plum
on the building because I wanted to see what the community needed. And a book club space is number one. And then also being able to have more room for local writers to be able to support them, to be able to add and build out some of our romance areas because we are limited on shelf space, so being able to have a broader inventory is part of it.
[36:38]
Kate
And a potential event space.
[36:39]
Lisa Plum
That sounds amazing because we're starting to learn how important events are to the
[36:44]
Kate
life of the independent bookstore.
[36:46]
Lisa Plum
They are. They really are.
[36:49]
Charlie Gibson
So it is Elderberry and Plum. It is on South 7th street in Springfield, Illinois. When you get there, you will find out it was Lisa Plum in the library with a good novel.
[37:01]
Lisa Plum
He's been waiting all day. He's been waiting all day to see that. He's been waiting all day to see that. I must say, it looks and sounds magical. Congratulations on your opening, Lisa. Thank you so much. Yeah.
[37:15]
Kate
Elderberry and Plum on 7th street in Springfield, Illinois. You know, you heard us make reference a couple of times to Beacon Hill Books in Boston, a really aesthetically gorgeous store that Lisa and Tom modeled their store on. We would highly recommend checking out both of them. They both look enchanting.
[37:34]
Charlie Gibson
Yeah. We enjoyed talking a couple of times to Melissa Feder, who opened Beacon Hill in an historic house in Boston. And that's a worthy model, I think, of elderberry and plum. So as Kate mentioned, check it out. South 7th Street. Actually, Kate in Springfield, Illinois, I love it when I can correct you. Feel better, Katie. Feel better. We're gonna stop that. Get the Kleenex.
[37:59]
Kate
No, I snorted you. You made fun of me. I snort in your microphone.
[38:02]
Charlie Gibson
No, stop it. We're gonna bring you up to date. I do hope you feel better because then you'll sound better. We'll bring you up to date on who makes the podcast possible. And then we'll have a coda from Chris Bojalian.
[38:15]
Kate
The book Case with Kate and Charlie Gibson is a production of ABC Audio and Good Morning America. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions. Our executive producer is Simone Swink. We want to make mention of Amanda McMaster, Sabrina Kohlberg, Arielle Chester at Good Morning America, and Josh Cohan from abc. Follow the bookcase wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to listen, rate and review. If you'd like to find any of the books mentioned in this episode, we have them linked in the episode description.
[38:45]
Chris Bojalian
You asked me if I am ever starstruck. I'm often starstruck. Once I was in the green room before an event at the Boston Public Library with David McCullough, and David said the following to me, that gives me comfort. And every day as a writer and a reader, he said in that great voice of his, well, you know, Chris, there are still more public libraries in this country than there are McDonald's fast food franchises. Mysteries unravel and stunning truths are revealed when 2020 investigates.
[39:21]
Lisa Plum
Follow the clues, the evidence, the breaking new details.
[39:24]
Chris Bojalian
ABC's 2020 means true murder mystery Shocking. If you follow true crime in 2020, then you've got to listen to this. Subscribe now to 2020 True Crime plus ad free exclusive true crime content.
[39:39]
Charlie Gibson
Search 2020 True Crime plus on Apple
[39:41]
Chris Bojalian
Podcasts and start your free trial terms apply.

Summary6 min read

The Book Case – "Chris Bohjalian Writes His Most Personal Novel" (August 6, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Charlie Gibson and Kate Gibson sit down with celebrated novelist Chris Bohjalian to discuss his newest book, The Amateur—arguably his most personal novel to date. The conversation delves into Bohjalian’s distinctive writing process, the autobiographical threads woven through the story, the complexities of writing from a female perspective, and how formative moments shape both storyteller and story. The episode also features a spotlight on the new independent bookstore Elderberry & Plum in Springfield, Illinois.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chris Bohjalian’s Writing Process & The Amateur

Speed and Secrecy: Bohjalian reveals that he wrote The Amateur in just 90 days during the summer of 2024, without telling his wife, daughter, editor, or agents.
- Quote [05:48, Chris Bohjalian]: “This was my secret novel… The premise of the book struck me as so wild that I was afraid the elevator pitch would end the book before I had written it.”
No Pre-Plotting: He begins with a premise and a character voice, letting the story reveal itself as he writes.
- Quote [07:41, Chris Bohjalian]: “I depend on my characters to take me by the hand and lead me through the dark of the story.”
Novel Structure: Bohjalian added a unique table of contents post-draft, heightening a sense of dread and foreshadowing that propels the novel.

2. Character Development & Female Perspective

Creating Mira Winston: The protagonist, Mira, is a blend of personal and fictional attributes—a golfer, a writer, a complex woman shaped by trauma.
- Quote [07:41, Chris Bohjalian]: “All I had was the basic premise and the narrative voice. The premise: a novelist finally writing a memoir about her life and her guilt and the before and after moment that derailed her life.”
Writing as a Woman: Bohjalian frequently writes from a female perspective and finds creative freedom in doing so.
- Quote [02:09, Kate]: “He has talked about it…he basically said, look, I put a lot of myself in my characters. And so the first thing I can do to disguise myself…is to be a woman.”
Kate’s Praise: “When you can really get into the psyche of women and write them well, I’m a big admirer.”

3. Themes: Tragedy, Guilt, and the ‘Before and After’ Moment

Personal Resonance: The novel’s inciting event—a tragic accident—mirrors the life-altering incidents Bohjalian and many people experience.
- Quote [12:13, Chris Bohjalian]: “Always. Oh my goodness gracious, always… Every human being on the planet has those before and after moments that are life altering.”
Autobiographical Details: Bohjalian embeds Easter eggs from his own life throughout the book, such as writing habits, family dynamics, and life as a caddy.
- Quote [13:19, Chris Bohjalian]: “Some of [the autobiographical details] are the sorts of things that I’m very comfortable sharing now that my parents have both died.”

4. Class, Gender, and the Culture of Golf

Country Club as Microcosm: The novel explores class divides and how gendered power dynamics play out in privileged spaces.
- Quote [16:08, Chris Bohjalian]: “I never saw men at their absolute worst… But during my second summer caddying… men spoke to each other differently on the golf course than they did in other places.”
Golf as Male Language: Mira observes, “I think golf was invented simply so that men would talk to each other. You never have to make eye contact.”

5. A Novel’s Structure and the Power of the Ending

Building to a Surprise: Bohjalian didn’t know The Amateur would culminate in a trial until deep into the process.
The Final Word: Charlie and Kate highlight the significance of the novel’s final word (no spoilers)—an example of Bohjalian’s careful craftsmanship.
- Quote [17:32, Chris Bohjalian]: “That was a factor in my mind… as much as this would have a lot of John Irving in it… it was also going to have a lot of Lolita and a little bit of Nathaniel Hawthorne thrown in as well.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Writing from Experience:
- [12:13, Chris Bojalian]: “My lovely bride was sound asleep in our tiny 520 square foot apartment in Brooklyn. And yes, I really did once have a creative writing professor… tell me I was not good enough to be taking her creative writing seminar after reading one of my stories and said to me, be a banker.”
On Being Prickly vs. Endearing:
- [14:23, Chris Bojalian]: “All the stuff that people don’t necessarily love about Mira… a lot of the things that Mira does… I did, but I was a boy, not a girl. So instead of people viewing me as difficult, they viewed me as the life of the party.”
On Universal Tragedy:
- [18:35, Chris Bojalian]: “Every human being on the planet has those before and after moments that are life altering. Some are wonderful and some are cataclysmic.”

Important Timestamps

[05:48] Bohjalian describes writing The Amateur in secret, in just 90 days.
[07:41] On character development, Pantser vs. Planner, and the class divide theme.
[09:20] Discussing writing process and narrative voice.
[12:13] Personal anecdotes about writing habits and life as a young writer.
[16:08] Golf club culture, gender, and class.
[17:32] Impactful novel ending and influences (Irving, Lolita, Hawthorne).
[18:35] The power and pain of life-altering moments.

Rapid Fire with Chris Bohjalian (23:32–27:55)

Lesser-known recommendation: All the World Can Hold by Jung Yoon
Last novel he wished he wrote: Everything Was Beautiful and Nothing Hurt by Ben Reeves
Favorite character (besides Mira/Kenny): Emily Shepherd from Close Your Eyes, Hold Hands
Most idiosyncratic object: Rocks from Armenian genocide sites in Eastern Turkey, honoring his heritage
Three authors he reads automatically: Jenny Jackson, John Irving, Alice Hoffman
Best writing advice (from Jodi Picoult): “It’s always easier to edit garbage than a blank page. So just get the words down on paper.” [27:55]

Bookstore Feature: Elderberry & Plum, Springfield, Illinois (28:12+)

Founder Lisa Plum shares the spontaneous origins of the store, its community support, and its historic, welcoming vibe inspired by iconic indie bookstores.
Key takeaway: The bookstore aims to foster community memory-making, support local writers, and serve as a unique, inviting space.

Final Thoughts and Coda

Chris on Being Starstruck: [38:44] “Once I was in the green room before an event at the Boston Public Library with David McCullough… he said in that great voice of his, ‘Well, you know, Chris, there are still more public libraries in this country than there are McDonald’s fast food franchises.’”

Conclusion

The Amateur and this discussion exemplify how an author’s own truths and traumas can be transformed into powerful fiction, grappling with guilt, gender, class, and creativity. Bohjalian’s distinctive process and openness make for a compelling, layered novel—and conversation—that resonates with both seasoned readers and aspiring writers.

Useful Reading & Listening Tips

Don’t read the last word of The Amateur ahead of time—the payoff is meaningful.
Consider how personal tragedies operate as creative fuel, both for Bohjalian and other writers.
Visit Elderberry & Plum or Beacon Hill Books if you’re in Springfield, IL or Boston, MA, for a dose of indie bookstore magic.

Loading summary

Transcript157 lines

[00:01]
Chris Bojalian
Ouch.
[00:02]
Kate
This knee is killing me. But I can't stop training.
[00:05]
Lisa Plum
The marathon is in two weeks. Let's get on ZOCDOC and find a doctor to take a look at that for you.
[00:10]
Kate
Okay, Here's a review.
[00:12]
Lisa Plum
Dr. Craddock really takes his time.
[00:14]
Kate
No, I don't have time.
[00:16]
Lisa Plum
What about Dr. Charles? His patients say he can help find a quick fix. And he's in network. Great.
[00:21]
Kate
Now we're talking.
[00:22]
Lisa Plum
Ah, book it.
[00:23]
Kate
Booked.
[00:24]
Lisa Plum
One mile down, 19 to go.
[00:26]
Kate
Bring it on. You've got options. Download the ZOCDOC app today. Well, hello bookcasers. It's the first bookcase in August, so it's like August has officially begun for you. It is the bookcase with Kate and Charlie. And I am the Kate part of
[00:49]
Charlie Gibson
that little equation and I'm the Charlie part. And I, I want listeners to know what a heroic co host I have. She has hauled herself out of a sickbed, a cold that is, that would do Antarctica proud. She's been sneez, been coughing, she's been sniffling. But the bookcase comes first and she's going to get out of bed and do it, even in her direst moment. Congratulations, Kate.
[01:14]
Lisa Plum
Thank you.
[01:15]
Kate
From sniffling to expectorating, here I am to share with all of you people the germs on my microphone. No, I. You know, it's the summer cold that we're passing around my house. It's the gift that keeps on giving.
[01:27]
Lisa Plum
You love it. I love it.
[01:29]
Charlie Gibson
Anyway, her son has it, her daughter Charlie. She can just be anticipating it.
[01:35]
Kate
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[01:36]
Lisa Plum
It's just a gift.
[01:37]
Charlie Gibson
And this way we can leave your coughs and your sniffles in. It's really good. It's Kate, her microphone and a box of Kleenex. Chris Bojalian is with us today. He Of 25 novels written, movies that have evolved from same plays written and a new book out the Amateur is the book and it's a very personal one. I think Kate so personal as people will hear in our conversation that he finds it impossible to talk about the incident in his life that partially inspired the book.
[02:09]
Kate
Well, I mean he talks about writers having an incident in their life that inspires them to write. And the main character in this book, Mira, has her life before and her life after incident in the sense that she's a. She's a teenage golfer, she's very, very, very good. Everybody at the club that she's a member of talks about her. And one day she has a freak accident. She hits a golf ball and she kills A caddy. And after that, she doesn't want to play golf anymore, of course, and her life is thrown into turmoil. I loved this book for many reasons, but a good part of the reason I loved it was because I thought he did an amazing job of writing from Mira's perspective as she ages with this horrible incident in her life as a woman. It is really easy to tick me off if you are a male writer and you attempt to write from the female perspective and you fail, it's a challenge that you don't have to put forth for yourself. So if you fail at it, I get very tsky tsky. But I thought Mira was written so beautifully, and I remembered reading some of Chris's previous work. So I looked up how much of Chris's work is written from the female perspective, and the answer is more than the male. And he has talked about it. In fact, he wrote a great substack entry about it where he basically said, look, I put a lot of myself in my characters. I'll be the first to admit that as an author, I put a lot of myself into my characters. And so the first thing I can do to disguise myself, to give myself freedom, is to be a woman. And I also think that the female perspective is in some ways more interesting than the males. So I will give him both thumbs up on that and also just say again, it's something that Jay Ryan does well, my friend Jay Ryan, that I admire him for. When you can really get into the psyche of women and write them well, I'm a big admirer. Yeah.
[03:58]
Charlie Gibson
Authors also, I would add, have told us over the years of our podcasting that they either carefully plot out their novels in advance or they begin with no plan at all and just let the story sort of come to them as they write. And I would urge listeners to read this book with that in mind. Chris tells us, as you'll hear in our discussion, that he starts with no plan. He just started with the idea of a caddy, a golfer, and a moment that changed everything. And as I look back on my thoughts as I read the Amateur, I can sort of feel the story coming to him, coming in chunks as it evolves into a novel of mystery leading to a trial at the end. And he tells us he didn't anticipate this was going to wind up with a trial at the end. But he does.
[04:44]
Kate
You say that he didn't sit down with the plan. He literally wrote this novel in 90 days, which is not something we would recommend unless you are an experienced author, because Reading this book, it certainly doesn't feel like a slapdash effort that he put together in 90 days. It feels well constructed. He nails the landing. I was very impressed that someone could turn this out in 90 days. Would that I could someday.
[05:09]
Charlie Gibson
Yeah, well, you got to get over your cold first. Anyway.
[05:12]
Kate
Can't even turn a cold out in 90 days.
[05:14]
Charlie Gibson
Here's our. Here's our conversation with Chris Bojalian. Chris Bojalian, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Really a great treat. The Amateur is the book. We've been doing this podcast now for five years, and every author that we have talked to has their own way of doing things. But if there has been any consistent theme, I guess it's that writing is hard. A novel takes years. It's multiple drafts. And yet I read that you knocked this puppy off in 90 days. How'd you do that?
[05:49]
Chris Bojalian
I did. This was my secret novel. I wrote this book. Yes, in 90 days, which even by my standards is fast. No one knew I was writing it. It was the summer of 2024, and I had this idea for a book about what if one of those before and after moments that we all have was spectacularly tragic but unavoidable. I was a caddy for summers, many summers, and so I decided to begin there. I didn't tell my wife what I was writing, and she's read every one of the 3.8 million words I've written before they were published. I didn't tell our amazing daughter. I didn't tell my brilliant editor, Jenny Jackson. I didn't tell my agents on two coasts, because the premise of the book struck me as so wild that I was afraid the elevator pitch would end the book before I had written it. Now, everyone assumed I was doing something because I'm always writing, but they also knew to give me space. And at the end of 90 days, the last Monday in August of 2024, I tucked the rough draft into an email, addressed it to my wife, our daughter, my editor, my agents, and put as the subject line simply how I spent my summer vacation and pressed send. And I was really gratified that everyone on that email chain had read it by Tuesday at lunchtime, and none of them thought I had lost my mind writing this book.
[07:30]
Kate
So you have this main character, Vera. She's the layering up of a lot of different things. A golfer, a writer, a woman seduced easily by older men. How does she come together in your head and in your writing?
[07:41]
Chris Bojalian
When I was writing this, this particular novel, as with all of my other books, whether they took 90 days to write or two or three years, I had no idea where the book was going. I depend on my characters to take me by the hand and lead me through the dark of the story. All I had was the basic premise and the narrative voice. The premise a novelist finally writing a memoir about her life and her guilt and the before and after moment that derailed her life. And a caddy. And the caddy was me, based on my years as a caddy. And that part of the book was going to be the class divide in America. That's all I knew when I started, for instance, I had no idea it was going to build to a courtroom drama. I knew there was going to be, or I suspected there was going to be at least one older predatory male at the golf course. But I had no idea that there would be other men abusing and preying upon Mira Winston when she was a young woman.
[08:57]
Kate
My favorite passages of the book are when Mira is reflecting on herself as a writer and when she's finding herself as a writer. And on page 115 you write, I looked at the Fine Point Bic pens he kept in a mug on his desk and the stack of yellow legal pads beside it and wondered how he began. How did he find that first sentence? How do you usually I hear the
[09:21]
Chris Bojalian
first sentence in my head, whether it's a book like Midwives or whether it is a book like the Amateur. I hear that first sentence and make that decision. Is this going to be the first person narrator with a quirky, idiosyncratic voice that makes first person really work? Or does this story demand a third person, Jamesian, omniscient narrator? And there are advantages to both. The wonderful thing about first person past in this case is that you can have a lot of dread and foreshadowing without it being shoehorned into the manuscript. When I finished that first draft, I did something I've never done before with a novel. I gave it a table of contents. And it's a really short table of contents. It is merely three parts, but each part is a title. The first part, there won't be a trial. There will never be a trial. The second part, the season of depositions, and the third part, the trial. So if you are approaching the book from the very beginning, hopefully there will be that sense of both dread and betrayal. And dread is clearly my jam. When my books work, and heaven knows they do not always work, but when they work, dread is what keeps you turning the pages.
[10:54]
Kate
That first sentence for this book. Did you know you wanted to present it as a first character memoir when you, when you heard that first sentence?
[11:02]
Chris Bojalian
I did. But I also knew I was going to do two things with a prologue. One of the things I loved about the prologue is that up until the very end of the prologue, you are supposing this is a third person omniscient novel. There we are with a bird's eye view of the practice net at the country club in the caddies and the first golfers arriving. And then there's a golf ball powering through the net and killing Kenny Foster. And then there is Mira Winston saying, I know because I was there. I was the girl who hit the golf ball.
[11:44]
Charlie Gibson
The amateur. Put me in mind of. Of John Irving's the World According to Garp. Garp is fearful always of the undertowed. The moment that something catastrophic will happen that changes everything. Mira has that moment when, as you say, her golf ball smashes into the head of a caddy and kills him. You talked about personal experiences being such a part of this book. Have you always been worried about such a moment?
[12:14]
Chris Bojalian
Always. Oh my goodness gracious, always. And there. There's so much autobiographic minutiae in this book. Kate, you were talking about the fine point Bic pens and the yellow legal pads. Well, I wrote my entire first novel. Good gracious. I wrote my entire first published novel and my first novel that was never published, using fine point Bic pens and yellow legal pads and counting the words meticulously because I was writing between 5 and 7am in the morning before going to my job at an ad agency in New York City. My lovely bride was sound asleep in our tiny 520 square foot apartment in Brooklyn. And yes, I really did once have a creative writing professor at my illustrious alma mater tell me I was not good enough to be taking her creative writing seminar after reading one of my stories and said to me, be a banker.
[13:12]
Kate
I do get the sense you're having fun with the autobiographical details that you use when Mira breaks the fourth wall.
[13:19]
Chris Bojalian
I do, I do. And some of them are the sorts of things that I'm very comfortable sharing now that my parents have both died. But I was really proficient at watering down the Cutty Sark. Even at the age of eight, I knew exactly how much I could get away with when I would pour the booze down the sink and fill it with water so that their evenings would be a tad less. Edward Alby, who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf, esque.
[13:45]
Charlie Gibson
Well, Mira, as an adult, does Become a writer. A writer, as she tells us, who has written 25 novels, has had movies adapted from her novels, has written three plays. Chris Pajali. And I can't help but notice that you've written 25 novels, that you've written three plays, that you've had movies made of your novels. A coincidence? I think not.
[14:08]
Kate
He did research.
[14:10]
Charlie Gibson
Why did you do this? Why did you make it so autobiographical?
[14:15]
Kate
And did you know when you embarked on this book when you're like, okay, I'm gonna make her a caddy, therefore she has to be a writer, therefore I'm gonna have fun putting my voice all over it.
[14:23]
Chris Bojalian
Some of it are, are simply little Easter eggs that entertained me and I hope will entertain some of my more attentive readers. But again, part of it is also my own way of acknowledging all of the mistakes I've made in my life. Mira has made a boatload of mistakes. I love Mira, I really do. And I like her. And I must admit it, it drives me crazy sometimes when people say, oh, I love the book. But I don't know if I like Mira because she's so prickly. Like at one point a book group says to her, oh, you're nicer when you're drinking. But all the stuff that people don't necessarily love about Mira are things that they need to cut her some slack on. I mean, first of all, since the age of 15 years old, she's being essentially raped because you don't have consent at 15 by one of her father's friends at the golf club. And she's viewing it as an affair. She's sexually assaulted by a high school senior. Her parents are functional alcoholics who clearly love her older brother more than her. So yeah, she acts out between the ages of 18 and 21 and makes some arguably not great choices. But the reality is that a lot of the things that mirror does in that period, I did, but I was a boy, not a girl. So instead of people viewing me as difficult, they viewed me as the life of the party.
[15:59]
Charlie Gibson
When you were a caddy, Chris, did you see man? And I guess I mean men, did you see man at his best or at his worst?
[16:09]
Chris Bojalian
I never saw men at their absolute worst because when we see men at their worst, we see nightmares like Ukraine. And I really did figure out during my second summer caddying that men spoke to each other differently on the golf course than they did at my parents parties or they did in other places where I saw adult men. And is one of the things Mira says in the Book. I think golf was invented simply so that men would talk to each other. You never have to make eye contact. You're staring down the long fairway and walking straight ahead. You're keeping an eye on your ball so it doesn't go mia you're staring down at the ball. So some of the men would talk to each other about things they would never have spoken about, I believe, had they been doing so many other things, whether it's tennis or going to a bar.
[17:05]
Charlie Gibson
I asked the question also because there are some surprises in the book. But one of the really interesting surprises to me was the last word in
[17:15]
Kate
the novel before the epilogue.
[17:17]
Charlie Gibson
Yep. And I don't want to give it away, but I came away thinking this is much more on Chris's mind as he wrote this novel than I thought. And I thought that that was a really, really interesting way to end it. A single word.
[17:33]
Chris Bojalian
Thank you. And I, I. That was a factor in my mind. It was pretty early into the book. As soon as the first male golfer comes onto Mira when she's 15 years old, I understood that as much as this would have a lot of John Irving in it, whether it's the World According to Garp or A Prayer for Own Meaning, it was also going to have a lot of Lolita
[17:55]
Kate
and a little bit of Nathaniel Hawthorne thrown in as well. This is, again, one of my favorite passages for Mira as a writer. This memoir exists partly because I did not want Kenny Foster to be lost to time, but also because it was his death that made me a writer. And it was his death that was the most singular event in my life. Do you have an event like that?
[18:15]
Chris Bojalian
I do, I do.
[18:16]
Kate
Would you be willing to share it?
[18:19]
Chris Bojalian
Boy, you know, I never have.
[18:22]
Kate
Okay.
[18:22]
Chris Bojalian
And I'm not going to now as a courtesy.
[18:25]
Kate
That's fine.
[18:27]
Chris Bojalian
Family. But yeah, there, there is.
[18:29]
Kate
There's an event that sat you down and you're like, I have to get this off my chest. And do you think that's true for most writers?
[18:35]
Chris Bojalian
I think it's true for everyone. Every. Every human being on the planet has, though, have those before and after moments that are life altering. Some are wonderful and some are cataclysmic. And I, you know, no one gets out alive. I have my own cataclysms. And there is one particular moment in my adolescence that has dogged me forever. And I don't go a day without
[18:59]
Charlie Gibson
thinking about, is it. Without revealing what it was. Was it contributory to your making yourself believe that you could be a writer?
[19:10]
Chris Bojalian
I wanted to be A writer before it happened. But I knew once the shock was behind me that this was something that was going to exist in me and someday in my work.
[19:25]
Kate
Chris Bodalian, thank you so much. This was a terrific book. We really enjoyed the read. The Amateur is the name. We could not recommend it more highly. Go pick it up. Thank you for joining us.
[19:36]
Chris Bojalian
Okay, Charlie, thank you so much for having me. And thank you for all you do on behalf of what words and reading and books can mean to the soul.
[19:44]
Charlie Gibson
That's a nice way to put it. Thank you. As you heard him say, Chris was a caddy himself for a couple of summers, and I got a kick out of reading that. He found men talk more on the golf course than they do in other. Other places because. Because they don't have to look at each other as they walk down the fairway or focus on a putt. I don't play golf anymore, but I found that to be true.
[20:10]
Kate
I know if you are taking somebody to a ball game, chances are that you are working through something with them. So you may not be on the links, but you have your own love language.
[20:19]
Charlie Gibson
Well, but the thought's the same. I mean, you're looking at the ball game or you're looking down the fairway, and that's when men will talk to each other. So. So I did learn more about some of my partners on a golf course than I think I would have in some other ven. And two, I would add, I heard some jokes that they would never tell in mixed company, and that made playing golf sort of fun. But we didn't get into that with the.
[20:45]
Kate
No, but I think one of the things he does very well in this book is to discuss country clubs as a microcosm of class structure. Sure, it's a very specific and first world way of looking at class struggle, but it's an interesting way of looking at class struggle. And he does a really nice job of that in this book, which, again, is very impressive if you're writing it in 90 days.
[21:06]
Charlie Gibson
Yeah, I think. I fear I'm going to sound like some of those suggested questions, you know, that come at the end of a textbook. But when you read the Amateur, I'm curious if the last word in the book that we talked about a little bit there, if the last word in the book changes in any way your thoughts about what purpose Chris had in mind in writing the book. I don't want to give it away, but if you read this book, don't peek ahead to see what the last word is. But do think about it when, when you get there. I think it's one more layer of
[21:38]
Kate
intrigue and I think it's an amazing way to stick the landing. He did a really nice job of that.
[21:45]
Charlie Gibson
So we'll take a break. We'll come back with some rapid fire questions for Chris after these messages. Foreignoc we know being a healthy adult is like living in a video game.
[22:02]
Lisa Plum
Every day has side quests, taxes, laundry, birthdays, and just when you're leveling up,
[22:07]
Charlie Gibson
you have to book a doctor. The insurance portal crashes, they put you on hold.
[22:11]
Lisa Plum
Your doctor doesn't take your plan.
[22:13]
Charlie Gibson
Game over. We see you.
[22:16]
Lisa Plum
So we made booking a doctor easy. Download Zoc Sockdoc Search by specialty, insurance and availability.
[22:21]
Charlie Gibson
Book instantly.
[22:22]
Lisa Plum
No cheat codes required.
[22:24]
Charlie Gibson
Find a doctor you love with Sock Doc hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile Now. I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills. But it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my base. Big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com switch upfront payment
[22:48]
Lisa Plum
of 45 for three months, $90 for six months or 180 for a 12 month plan required 15 per month equivalent taxes and fees Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy.
[22:56]
Charlie Gibson
See Terms hi, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.
[22:58]
Lisa Plum
Are you looking for a beach read this summer?
[23:00]
Charlie Gibson
May I suggest your big wireless bill? It's got suspense, mystery, a slightly flat emotional arc, and a shocking twist where you realize you've been overpaying the entire time time.
[23:10]
Lisa Plum
Fortunately though, Mint story is better.
[23:11]
Charlie Gibson
Every plan $15 a month, even unlimited.
[23:14]
Lisa Plum
That's it.
[23:14]
Charlie Gibson
Happy ending, zero tears. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment
[23:19]
Lisa Plum
of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees extra initial plan term only greater than 50gb. Me slow when network is busy. See Terms.
[23:32]
Kate
Rapid fire Questions for Chris Bojaling Lesser known book you recommend to everyone all
[23:38]
Chris Bojalian
the World can hold by Jung Yoon. It is one of the funniest, smartest and yet most moving books ever. I've read about 9 11. It is a novel about people the week after 911 who leave Boston on a cruise.
[23:55]
Charlie Gibson
What is the last novel you read that made you say to yourself, damn, I wish I'd written that.
[24:01]
Chris Bojalian
Everything was beautiful and Nothing Hurt by Ben Reeves. I finished it yesterday, and a lot of times I view writing a novel like an Olympic gymnast's floor routine. You can be spectacular for 2 minutes and 55 seconds, and if you don't stick the landing, it's a disaster. He really stuck the landing.
[24:24]
Charlie Gibson
In 25 novels, you've created a lot of characters. Is there one that really sticks with
[24:30]
Chris Bojalian
you the most, other than Mera Winston and Kenny Foster? My SuperEGO and my ID in the Amateur, I'm going to say Emily shepherd from Close your eyes, hold hands. You know that expression sold like hotcakes? Well, close your eyes, hold hands, sold like whatever is the opposite of hotcakes. Which is fine. But Emily shepherd is my teenager trying to keep it together after a meltdown at Vermont's lone nuclear plant. And now she's among the refugees in Burlington, Vermont, living in an igloo made of trash bags. A homeless orphan. I love her. And so few readers found that book that I feel bad for Emily because I think her story is beautiful.
[25:19]
Kate
Most idiosyncratic object on your desk.
[25:23]
Chris Bojalian
Most idiosyncratic object is not on my desk because I keep my desk so immaculately clean. But to my right, if I were to turn the camera, you would see all of these small rocks. They are from Van Di Arbekir, Engineer, and other parts of Eastern Turkey where the Armenian genocide occurred, because I'm a grandson of survivors of the Armenian genocide, and six times I've gone to visit the unmarked mass graves that mass Anatolia and Silesia, and I often bring back rocks.
[25:57]
Kate
Three authors you will read just because they wrote it.
[26:01]
Chris Bojalian
Oh, well, we've certainly got to begin with my brilliant editor. She's only written two books, but they're both fantastic. I know Jenny Jackson. I think Jenny Jackson is just an absolutely magnificent storyteller. One of the most astute observers of human nature and hilarious. I love Jenny Jackson's work. I will read anything, of course, by John Irving. We've been talking about John a bit in this podcast, but I think John is also so smart and is such a profoundly accurate moral compass. And finally, I'm going to say I will read Anything by Alice Hoffman, because I think we share this delight in both female empowerment and the weirdness of witchcraft, real or imagined.
[26:51]
Charlie Gibson
We just talked to Jenny.
[26:52]
Kate
We did.
[26:53]
Charlie Gibson
I love the shampoo effect. I like Pineapple street, but she said. I think she said in. In when we talked to her, Kate, what she really loves is being the editor at Knopf. That. That is.
[27:04]
Kate
That is her first love.
[27:06]
Charlie Gibson
That is her first love.
[27:07]
Kate
Yeah. Yeah. And she's brilliant at it. She's just brilliant at it.
[27:10]
Chris Bojalian
Yeah, she's really sluggish. She's really slumming. Continuing to edit me. When you look at the brilliant editor, the brilliant writers on her list.
[27:18]
Charlie Gibson
Have you ever asked for an autograph when you were a kid or even as an adult?
[27:22]
Chris Bojalian
Yes, I have somewhere still autographs from a lot of golfers when they would be at the Westchester Classic from back in the day, whether it's Lee Trevino or. Or Jack Nicklaus. I have autographs from some of the 1969 Mets from when I was a very, very little boy. And I actually cherish a lot of my signed books. Books signed by authors who are dramatically more talented than I am.
[27:52]
Kate
Best piece of advice you've ever received on writing.
[27:55]
Chris Bojalian
The best piece I've ever received on writing Jodi Picoult. Jody said essentially this. It's always easier to edit garbage than a blank page. So just get the words down on paper.
[28:12]
Charlie Gibson
Once again, our thanks to Chris. We have a bookstore this week, Kate. It's Elderberry and Plum. It's a new store with an intriguing name in an historic building in Springfield, Illinois. It's owned by Lisa Plum and Tom Elder. Well, I'm sorry, that sort of gives away the origin of the name. But here's our conversation with Lisa Plum. Lisa Plum of Elderberry and Plum. A bookstore that I think sounds like a fruit cocktail. But it's a wonderful name, I think.
[28:44]
Lisa Plum
I love it. I think it sounds like something out of Harry Potter's.
[28:47]
Kate
It would be next to Flourish and Bath, right?
[28:49]
Charlie Gibson
Well, you're in business with your brother, Tom Elder, so it fits very nicely, I think, the name. But you're brand new to the business. So tell me how it's going so far. You just opened at the beginning of July.
[28:58]
Kate
Yay. Yep.
[28:59]
Lisa Plum
I mean, we have been blown away by the support by the community. We've had a lot of tourists coming through. Cause we are right off Route 66. And so that's a big, historic year this year and a lot of celebrations. It's been great. How were you smart enough, lucky enough,
[29:17]
Kate
miserable enough, silly enough, crazy enough to open a bookstore?
[29:20]
Lisa Plum
Fill in your adjective. My son and I were having lunch across the street, and when I saw this building for sale, I was like, should we just go look at it? And he was like, mother, no. Because he could see the twinkle in my eye. And the house looks like something from the Garden District in New Orleans. And so I was like, well, let's just Take a peek. And so from the moment I walked in, I could just feel like a puzzle connecting and all the pieces coming together. So it was really special just from that initial reaction to the store and then learning about the history and being able to walk through each room and. And it did remind me of Beacon Hill in Boston, so. And you could see what it was going to become.
[30:12]
Charlie Gibson
So this is an historic house in Springfield, Illinois, right?
[30:15]
Lisa Plum
It is. It's a part of the Cook family. So as soon as I walked in, I could tell this was someplace that you just. I've only had it happen a couple times in my life when I met my husband, the colleges that I went to, but I just knew I belonged here. And I did not have it on my radar. I was going to open a bookstore, but as soon as I walked in, that's what was going to happen. And it was with a hundred percent certainty. So.
[30:41]
Charlie Gibson
Really?
[30:42]
Lisa Plum
Yeah, it was really neat. And the owner was here, and so she walked me through the house. Each room was. It's. It's so unique. And you could tell that the house had been loved for generations, different owners, but it was just a really special space. And so I waited a year. I went through all the business analytics with Tom. I went through, like, city coding. I had contractors just give me their opinions that are good friends of mine. And then everyone just reported it, which you typically wouldn't expect from a bookstore idea.
[31:20]
Kate
So you run it by your brother. You run it by accountants and business people and construction folks. But now you gotta tell your husband, you want this bookstore, and you gotta make the case that it's a good investment. So how do you do that?
[31:33]
Lisa Plum
So here's the thing, is that we are both tenured salespeople.
[31:36]
Kate
Got it.
[31:37]
Lisa Plum
So you have to have your sales pitch very refined. You have to be 100% certain, bulletproof of any objections that you're gonna have to handle. Got it. So I came in, ready, and he didn't have a chance. But no, he. We came in and I said, we didn't even come in the inside. I said, babe, there's a house. We're gonna drive by. I want to buy it. We have a family insurance agency. Died recently, two years ago, taken over. I'm like, I think we're gonna move the insurance agency to the second floor, and I'm gonna open a bunch of. On the first floor. Here's the house. What do you think? And he was like, you should go for it.
[32:15]
Charlie Gibson
Now, you mentioned one of our Kate's and my favorite bookstores which is Beacon Hill Books in Boston. It's a bookstore that has a wonderful vibe. So you obviously did some research in looking at bookstores to come up with what kind of impression you wanted the store to make as somebody walks in. What was that?
[32:33]
Lisa Plum
So I'm lucky enough to get to travel. And again, this wasn't on my radar of opening a bookstore. It was just something personally. Whenever I travel, I will go to different indie bookstores, different churches, and just speaking the architecture, but it's time I get to myself. But Beacon Hill was a key one. Faulkner bookstore in New Orleans has been so instrumental in not only the management and trying to manifest what makes bookstore special and the curation of it, but also just from the back end of understanding how to order, how to sell, how to try to network through in this. Sometimes post communities. So. So they've been really helpful. Same thing with writer's block in Las Vegas. They were. They gave me such sound advice coming up. It's really.
[33:25]
Kate
It's really.
[33:25]
Lisa Plum
It's the most supportive business I've ever seen. Like in no other business will people give away their trade secrets the way they do in a bookstore.
[33:33]
Kate
You want bookcases that are this high, not this high. And here's what we've discovered about this, and here's what we do on Indie
[33:39]
Lisa Plum
Bookstore Day, and here's what you might try. And it's really a fascinating business that way. Tom and I came from a very corporate setting. So for us, it's like, it's so heartwarming, it's so genuine, because it's not only just on the bookstore side, on the indie side, but it's also being a local business owner, because the city of Springfield and all the local surrounding businesses have just opened up to us for collaborations, for helping us promote. They're like, if you win, we win. Just, we're all in this together, so let's lift each other up.
[34:14]
Kate
Since you've been open in the last month, what has surprised you the most?
[34:17]
Lisa Plum
I think I was hoping that this would be a special place where people made memories. But what I didn't anticipate was people getting dressed up to come to the bookstore and making a day of it with their friends or their kids or a loved one, and then going across the street for tea and for French baguettes. And they've made it a whole event, obviously.
[34:41]
Kate
Your partner's Tom Elder. You're Lisa Plum. Tell me about the. We are gonna name the store because, like I say, it sounds like something on Diagon Alley. For Harry Potter.
[34:50]
Lisa Plum
So.
[34:51]
Kate
So, like, what names were you tossing around? What were the names less traveled by?
[34:55]
Lisa Plum
Okay, so this is a very common. If you have the last name Tony here, sugar pun a lot. And Tom vetoed that as quickly as it came out of my mouth because he knows that if I had my druthers, this place would look like Versailles. Everything would be pink and glitter. And he's like, lisa, there's men that are going to want to come to the bookstore, and you can't call it Sugarcane, so just let's move past that. So he came up with the name. Good. I love it.
[35:23]
Charlie Gibson
You must have financial goals in mind, thinking about what you need to do. I don't want to know what they are, but how far down the road
[35:30]
Kate
Are you kicking its butt?
[35:32]
Charlie Gibson
Yeah, exactly. Are you kicking butt?
[35:34]
Lisa Plum
We're doing great. And it's only because the community, honestly, and people. I saw a real on social media where Ann Patrick said that there's no secret to selling a book. It's not about doing a circuit. It's about reading a book that other people recommend. And it's kind of applied to our bookstore, thankfully, is that people thought they recommended it, they posted it. And so we've been really fortunate. We're looking at expanding. We have a building that we're going to turn into a cottage, hopefully have it open for Christmas in the holidays.
[36:08]
Kate
What are those two specialties be if you expand? I don't want you to give away too much, but I was holding off
[36:13]
Lisa Plum
on the building because I wanted to see what the community needed. And a book club space is number one. And then also being able to have more room for local writers to be able to support them, to be able to add and build out some of our romance areas because we are limited on shelf space, so being able to have a broader inventory is part of it.
[36:38]
Kate
And a potential event space.
[36:39]
Lisa Plum
That sounds amazing because we're starting to learn how important events are to the
[36:44]
Kate
life of the independent bookstore.
[36:46]
Lisa Plum
They are. They really are.
[36:49]
Charlie Gibson
So it is Elderberry and Plum. It is on South 7th street in Springfield, Illinois. When you get there, you will find out it was Lisa Plum in the library with a good novel.
[37:01]
Lisa Plum
He's been waiting all day. He's been waiting all day to see that. He's been waiting all day to see that. I must say, it looks and sounds magical. Congratulations on your opening, Lisa. Thank you so much. Yeah.
[37:15]
Kate
Elderberry and Plum on 7th street in Springfield, Illinois. You know, you heard us make reference a couple of times to Beacon Hill Books in Boston, a really aesthetically gorgeous store that Lisa and Tom modeled their store on. We would highly recommend checking out both of them. They both look enchanting.
[37:34]
Charlie Gibson
Yeah. We enjoyed talking a couple of times to Melissa Feder, who opened Beacon Hill in an historic house in Boston. And that's a worthy model, I think, of elderberry and plum. So as Kate mentioned, check it out. South 7th Street. Actually, Kate in Springfield, Illinois, I love it when I can correct you. Feel better, Katie. Feel better. We're gonna stop that. Get the Kleenex.
[37:59]
Kate
No, I snorted you. You made fun of me. I snort in your microphone.
[38:02]
Charlie Gibson
No, stop it. We're gonna bring you up to date. I do hope you feel better because then you'll sound better. We'll bring you up to date on who makes the podcast possible. And then we'll have a coda from Chris Bojalian.
[38:15]
Kate
The book Case with Kate and Charlie Gibson is a production of ABC Audio and Good Morning America. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions. Our executive producer is Simone Swink. We want to make mention of Amanda McMaster, Sabrina Kohlberg, Arielle Chester at Good Morning America, and Josh Cohan from abc. Follow the bookcase wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to listen, rate and review. If you'd like to find any of the books mentioned in this episode, we have them linked in the episode description.
[38:45]
Chris Bojalian
You asked me if I am ever starstruck. I'm often starstruck. Once I was in the green room before an event at the Boston Public Library with David McCullough, and David said the following to me, that gives me comfort. And every day as a writer and a reader, he said in that great voice of his, well, you know, Chris, there are still more public libraries in this country than there are McDonald's fast food franchises. Mysteries unravel and stunning truths are revealed when 2020 investigates.
[39:21]
Lisa Plum
Follow the clues, the evidence, the breaking new details.
[39:24]
Chris Bojalian
ABC's 2020 means true murder mystery Shocking. If you follow true crime in 2020, then you've got to listen to this. Subscribe now to 2020 True Crime plus ad free exclusive true crime content.
[39:39]
Charlie Gibson
Search 2020 True Crime plus on Apple
[39:41]
Chris Bojalian
Podcasts and start your free trial terms apply.