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- [00:00]
Lori Bergamotto
From ABC News and Good Morning America, I'm Lori Bergamotto. Today's Brightly moment is brought to you by Macy's this Mother's Day. A special video from the GMA vault.
- [00:11]
Jason Reynolds
Oh, my. You made it.
- [00:14]
Lori Bergamotto
It was graduation day for Sabrina Hill, an Air Force veteran receiving her associate's degree in nursing from Purdue University. She hadn't seen her son Blaine Juhas, an active duty army specialist serving overseas for nine months until welcome home. It was a long drive and long flight to West Lafayette, Indiana, but Blaine says, surprising his mom was worth every mile.
- [00:38]
Jason Reynolds
After a month of not seeing me, she was sobbing. So gonna be something special.
- [00:43]
Lori Bergamotto
Purdue Global's graduation team worked with Blaine to arrange the Mother's Day surprise.
- [00:48]
Jason Reynolds
Sabrina Hill, US Air Force veteran, this
- [00:53]
Lori Bergamotto
brightly moment has been brought to you by Macy's this Mother's Day. Let Macy's be your guide to gifting.
- [01:07]
Kate
Welcome to the Bookcase. I am the Kate, part of the duo that hosts the show.
- [01:13]
Charlie Gibson
Well, we're a duet and I'm Charlie Gibson and this is the Bookcase with Kate and Charlie, as we hope those are the phrases that you give to all, all your friends. I just heard the Bookcase with Kate and Charlie and it was another wonderful show and you should be listening. We want you to sell it to all your friends and we'll send you a lovely parting gift of you two. No, we won't.
- [01:35]
Kate
I don't know what parting gift. We'll send you a take home version of our podcast.
- [01:40]
Charlie Gibson
You've heard the show. Play the game.
- [01:43]
Kate
Exactly. We don't do a lot of YA and young people's literature. We don't, because honestly, we don't read a ton of it. But there is one great YA author that I have always loved and followed and his name is Jason Reynolds and his new book, and we'll explain what we mean by new in a minute because it's sort of in quotation marks is called Soundtrack. And when it was sent to me, I tore through it as I tear through a lot of Jason Reynolds. He's most famously known for Ghost and the track and running series that he did, which is also incredibly good. He's very talented. And so I was really excited to love this book and to speak with him.
- [02:23]
Charlie Gibson
Well, he's very prolific, as you mentioned, and this book is actually something that he wrote years ago, got out of the dusty archives and is being published now just now called Soundtrack, as Kate mentioned, I think. And it is about a group of musicians, buskers, I think is the. Is the actual phrase they're buskers and they play in New York subway stations. And people gather around and it's the story of their lives. Told wonderfully, I think. I really liked it. It really starts dramatically, I think. And we asked him just to read the first couple of paragraphs of the book.
- [03:01]
Jason Reynolds
If there was a movie made about my life, it would start with me, Uncle Lucky and his friend Spit in the kitchen of our apartment. I'd be six, and I'd have on my favorite red socks, the ones my big toes stuck out. Uncle Lucky would be explaining to me for the hundredth time, nephew, anything happens, you call 91 1. Then he'd put one bullet in his pistol and spin the cylinder. Spit would take a long pull on a joint and let the stinky smoke float to the ceiling while Uncle Lucky cocked the gun and lifted it to his head. Then Uncle Lucky, with his finger on the trigger, would close his eyes and say, lucky, Lucky, Lucky. And bam. The title of the movie in big, bold letters would pop up on the screen. The Story of Stuyvesant Gray.
- [03:47]
Kate
If that isn't a first page that grabs you. I mean, when I read it, I called dad and I was like, oh, we're gonna do this book. And I was only on page three. I also think it speaks to his talent that he wrote this more than 10 years ago. So whatever maturity he has developed over the last decade, it already existed when he wrote this.
- [04:03]
Charlie Gibson
It sure did. So this is gonna be a little longer in terms of our talking to Jason, so we wanna get right to it as one of our friends. Richard, you should get to these interviews earlier. But anyway, let's get right to Jason Reynolds and our chat about soundtrack. Jason Reynolds, it is great, really great to have you in the bookcase. This is a lovely book soundtrack you write for young adults, which is a really, really important audience. What after they have finished, do you want them to take away from this book? Do you simply write stories or do you want something in there that is a lesson that they take away?
- [04:44]
Jason Reynolds
I don't necessarily think about the lesson when I'm making the book. I don't know if that's a healthy way to make art. I don't want to lead the reader in any particular way, to be honest with you. I'm just trying to bear witness to their lives. I'm trying to be one of the people that they can use the thing that has been made to hide their secrets. That said, I think for this book having made it and now that it's lived in the world in A different way. I hope that young people. And this is with all my books, I really, really, really believe that friendship is the most valuable relationship of all the relationships. And I think it's also the most underrated and underappreciated.
- [05:28]
Kate
So what was it that first hooked you into writing this? Was it the voice of sty? Was it wanting to explore the relationships of at that age?
- [05:37]
Jason Reynolds
I was just wondering, sitting on the A train and wondering, who are these teenagers, right, that come in this train every single day and annoy all of us with. With their, you know, with their banding and singing and strumming and, you know, it's like, like, where does the mariachi band go when they get off the train, right? Where, right? Where are the. These young orchestral musicians dressed in hoodies and sneakers who play on the platform? Where do they live? What do they talk about when they go split a dollar slice, right? Like the man who. There's that guy who just won an Oscar for a short movie, a short film called the Singers. I believe it's a beautiful, beautiful movie. But that guy, the black man with that beautiful baritone voice I used to see all the time singing in the subway, all these like, doo wop songs, singing the song he sang in the movie, as a matter of fact, right? I. We watched him every day sing that song in the subway, right? And it's like, but who is he? What's his story? Where does he come from? What has he been through? What has he seen? How does he feel, right? And I think that was sort of the beginning.
- [06:51]
Charlie Gibson
I want to come back to something you just said. After they play, they go get a dollar slice.
- [06:56]
Jason Reynolds
Mm.
- [06:57]
Charlie Gibson
Jason, where do you get a dollar slice of pizza in New York? There it's. It's $2, $3. And I was at a baseball game the other night, and it was $13 a slice. I'm not gonna pay that for pizza.
- [07:11]
Jason Reynolds
I know I'm not. You gotta remember, this book was written in 2015, you know, so in 2015, you could still slip a dollar slice maybe, you know, Two Brothers pizza. You can still kind of get a dollar $2 max, right? I remember being on Prince street getting $2 slices. And that's back in this time. 2, 2014, 13, 12. You can still find a dollar slice. Now, I know it's over.
- [07:34]
Charlie Gibson
You go to the ball game, there used to be dollar dog nights. You know, they were pretty short and they were not very good, but they were dollar dogs.
- [07:42]
Kate
I love that you're like getting into the 80 something year old argument with a vendor, $13. Have you lost your mind? You've talked about music and writing, and I wonder if you wouldn't mind talking about the musical. Did you think that having a rhythm to this book was important?
- [07:58]
Jason Reynolds
I think having a few rhythms to this book are important. I mean, you know, I. I try to. For this story, I try to parallel the book, the rhythm of the book, to the rhythm of New York City. I think typically when I'm writing, I can. I can sort of hear the click track in my head. You know, everything is pretty metronomic, and I like to write that way because it's. It feels propellant and it's the. And it's my own. It's my own sort of internal cue that I'm. That I'm in my own rhythm, that I'm finding my own flow, right. If I can't find the rhythm, then I can't find the rhythm. Right. And so. And so I always am writing on, like, a click, click, click. Like, I can hear that all the time when I'm working and I read my work out loud. And it has to kind of line up so that when you're reading it, it feels sort of propellant. It feels catalyzed in a particular way. For this story, though, I think it required a couple of rhythms. I think I was trying to figure out, well, what is the rhythm of a busy New York City underground station? What is that like a New York City underground stop? Right. What does that sound like? What does it feel like? What's the rhythm of it? And to me, so much of it is sort of cacophony. It's like a cacophony of sound. And much like jazz, where there may be a set meter, there's a lot of other things happening that we could set different meters to. Right. And I think that's really what it was.
- [09:21]
Kate
So you said you read aloud to yourself. Do you read aloud to yourself intermittently? Do you read aloud to yourself when you finish what you think is the end of the rhythm?
- [09:29]
Jason Reynolds
Yeah, I read aloud to myself typically after I hit a wall, right. So, like, I'll keep it moving and I'll let it. I'll let it be what it is I try to be. These days. It takes me a little longer to get in this space where I try to shed my self consciousness. Right. This is sort of the curse of success, is that you become more and more self conscious about the thing that you're making because you want to make something as good as the last thing you're making instead of making the most honest thing in the moment. But once I find it, I let it flow. I just let it go. And it's a lot of. I mean, it's a mess. And then when I hit the wall or the next day when I'm starting over, I'll. I'll go through and. And let. And like to hear it, to see, really honestly, to test, to see if my instincts still work.
- [10:20]
Charlie Gibson
We talked to Taori Jones a couple of weeks ago, who has just written a wonderful book called Kin. And. And she said, I was writing a book that I was commissioned to write, already had the advance, cash the checks. And I realized as I was writing it that I was making noise, that I wasn't making music and that I had to go back and start something totally different. And the result of that was. Was Kin. When you read to yourself, when do you know this is just not working? This is just not. There's no rhythm in this. It's wrong. I gotta change it. What is it that you hear in your ear that you know is totally discordant?
- [11:00]
Kate
And how much of your writing ends up on the floor before you get into that rhythm?
- [11:05]
Jason Reynolds
Yeah, well, to answer the first part of the question, I think I know if, like, it's hard to. It's such a good question because it's so hard to put into words what my own voice sounds like. Right. And so I'm trying. I can't. I don't know how to tell you that I know when I'm lying to me. I know when I'm lying to myself about what it is I'm making. I know when I'm trying to be Toni Morrison. I think that's why it's always very obvious when I don't. Because I'm like, oh, this is terrible. Because you're trying to do the Toni Morrison thing, right? Or you're trying to be Jesmyn Ward, or you want to desperately craft sentences like maybe a Jimmy Baldwin, or, well, I should call him James Baldwin, which is a respectful way to say his name. James Baldwin or, Or Ellison or any of these people that I, that I love so much or Zora Neale Hurston when I want my. I want my dialect to feel as rich and as honest as Zora Neale Hurston. And it's like, man, this is all sort of. This is a circus, man. This is all nonsense. And a lot of it does hit the floor. So I can, I, I, I, I can tell because. Because I know my voice, and I know when I'M not being honest with myself. I wish I was a word writing scholar. I'm not. I wish I had some of the academic lexicon and even some of the processes in which you learn in the academy perhaps, and maybe they'd be helpful, but I don't have any of that either. What I have is a gut. Right? I just. I have an instinct. I have intuition. This whole thing over the last 20 years of my career has been rooted in my intuition, which is what my first editor told me all those years ago, which is like, hey, man, your intuition will take you farther than your education ever will. And I'm still trusting that same gut.
- [12:52]
Charlie Gibson
Well, you didn't do it poorly. The two of us can attest you didn't do it poorly. No, not at all. I'm interested in the technique and I apologize. I've read some of your other stuff, but I don't know if you've used this technique otherwise. The technique being there is prose and then there is dialogue intermixed. And I felt it sometimes like I'm reading a script and sometimes like I'm reading a book. But that interposition of dialogue and exposition, I found a really interesting technique. What does it free you to do? Does it restrict you in any way? How do you think of it and have you used it in other areas?
- [13:31]
Jason Reynolds
I'm more interested in what it does for the reader. I think any chance you get to create space on a page is good, especially for the population that I work for. A little bit of space goes a long, long, long way when you're dealing with a 14 year old. Right. And so I think first of all, what it does is it gives it some breath. It gives it a little air you can breathe a bit while reading it. It doesn't feel so daunting or so heavy. A lot of black letters on a white page can be a lot for someone who might be struggling with reading or who might be trying to become a better reader, or someone who's trying to do better in class, for that matter. Right? So that's the first thing. The other thing is I think it gives people an opportunity to be reminded that literature is art. I've been arguing a lot lately in the media about how I think we teach language arts, but really we just teach language. I don't know if we're teaching the art part of it very well. And I think in order to teach the art part of it, one has to then except the fact that storytelling gets to be creative outside of the topic of the story itself. Or the plot of the story itself, the actual container, the framework of the story also can be a creative endeavor.
- [14:46]
Kate
That's interesting because I think a lot of people look at. When you're talking about literature as art, like, for instance, we did a show on the Invisible man, and one of the things we said is, this is a book that requires your participation. Like, you have to pay attention to every sentence. It is work, but it is work that is so unbelievably rewarding. You know, actually, one of the things I found when you did that with the dialogue was it actually sped it up. It allowed the characters to sort of talk over each other, which made it more true to dialogue for me, which I.
- [15:15]
Jason Reynolds
It becomes more theater. It becomes more theatrical in that way. And I think maybe even it allows us to see the world in which we're sort of supposed to be living on this page, right? We can see the world differently. It's no different than, like, you know, in the. In the kids space. You know, it's so interesting. What's different? I write for adults too, and the differences are fascinating because in the kids space, oftentimes when you're writing dialogue, you use tags, right? So, you know, I went to the store, so and so said. But then you add an adjective, right? So and so said flustered, or. You know what I mean? Or so and so griped so and so. You know, it's always this kind of like, what is the. What is the physical tag to give us some sort of elevated experience as far as how the person is saying the thing. But when you're writing for adults, it's just said. And the reason why is because in the adult space, just saying he said, she said, they said, we said allows the dialogue to just kind of fall away. It allows, like, it allows the ease. The ease in reading so that the pace can stay the pace. And it. And you don't get hung up on, like, the minutiae of these people who are talking. You're listening to what they're saying. And I think the script format does the same thing for kids.
- [16:30]
Charlie Gibson
When soundtrack played in a subway station, it was a happening, and people would gather and people would follow them. Well, and I never knew. Does Jason Reynolds think their music was any good?
- [16:43]
Jason Reynolds
Oh, yeah. In my mind, these are geniuses. And you know why? Because I've seen so many of them. And I have a little brother who was one of those, like, musical genius kids who plays instruments and all of that. I. In my mind, there's nothing more interesting than a 19 year old musician. Like there's something so messy about it all and something so honest about it. And their chops are just good enough depending upon when they started playing the chop. I mean, look, we can look at the White Stripes first three albums, right? And like I remember they would, people would criticize Meg White, the drummer and say that she wasn't a good drummer. And now we listen to it and we say to ourselves, actually she was perfect for the music they were making. She was a perfect drummer for the two man band that they had and the music that was raw and unfiltered that they were making. Right? And I think that and they were young, they were young. And the same thing that I, that I sort of the sort of shedding of self consciousness that I that same thing I was talking about when I wrote soundtrack. That's what the kids have. They really believe they're geniuses. When you're that age, you just believe you're the.
- [18:05]
Lori Bergamotto
From ABC News and Good Morning America, I'm Lorie Bergamotto. Today's brightly moment is brought to you by Macy's this Mother's Day, a special video from the GMA Vault.
- [18:16]
Jason Reynolds
Oh my God, you made it.
- [18:19]
Lori Bergamotto
It was graduation day for Sabrina Hill, an Air Force veteran receiving her associate's degree in nursing from Purdue University. She hadn't seen her son, Blaine Juhas, an active duty army specialist serving overseas for nine months until welcome home. It was a long drive and long flight to West Lafayette, Indiana, but Blaine says, surprising his mom was worth every mile.
- [18:43]
Jason Reynolds
After a month of not seeing me, she was sobbing. So gonna be something special.
- [18:48]
Lori Bergamotto
Purdue Global's graduation team worked with Blaine to arrange the Mother's day surprise.
- [18:53]
Jason Reynolds
Sabrina Hill, U.S. air Force veteran
- [18:58]
Kate
this
- [18:58]
Lori Bergamotto
brightly moment has been brought to you by Macy's this Mother's Day. Let Macy's be your guide to gifting.
- [19:06]
Jason Reynolds
It's time to bring on the blooms at the Home Depot with spring garden deals. Find savings on hanging baskets and flowers to brighten your backyard or any space that needs instant color. Then get everything you need to plant and protect them with low prices guaranteed on soil and mulch. Dig into spring garden deals for four days at the Home Depot now through May 10th exclusion supply. See homedepot.com pricematch for details.
- [19:36]
Kate
Girl, winter is so last season and now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. Shoulders that perfect hang on the patio. Sundress those sandals. You can wear all Day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done. Hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope. It's time for a little in person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic.
- [20:12]
Charlie Gibson
Some more of our conversation with Jason Reynolds in which he tells a wonderful fish story. It's not about catching.
- [20:19]
Kate
Yeah.
- [20:20]
Charlie Gibson
Like you do. It's not about catching one that's bigger than your imagination. It's about a goldfish. But it's a lesson for life.
- [20:27]
Kate
Yeah. And then we go to rapid fires. And I just want to say we left these rapid fires a little long. Jason is not just a great writer, but he's almost a reading and writing philosopher. And we asked some somewhat deep questions in our rapid fires to Jason and, and he really is very thoughtful about his answers. And so we wanted him to say what he needed to say about the questions that. So here we are, the second part of our interview with the great Jason Reynolds.
- [20:56]
Charlie Gibson
You write for young adults. Why is that so important?
- [21:00]
Jason Reynolds
Oh, I mean, there, who else is there to write for? Right? I mean, like, when you really, when you, when you really consider it. I love being an adult, but the stakes are much higher, you know, if we're really thinking about what I'm, what, what myself and my colleagues are trying to do, it's basically ensure the futures of the rest of us by making sure that they have not just stories right. For me, it isn't even about that. I know there's like all this talk around, like, representation and blase, blah, blah, blah, and I'm with it. I like all of that. I think all of that is very important. But I'm thinking about, like, brain power. Right. I'm interested in, like, the more language you have, the better your ability to think critically. The more language you have, the better you're able to listen to people who are telling you things that may be true or untrue. And your discernment changes simply based on how you've exercised the exercise muscle of the, the muscle of the mind, which is often strengthened by the act of reading and reading. Anything for that matter, just the act of it. Right. Your ability to be persistent and to concentrate and to be disciplined has so much to do with what you can learn when you are reading anything. Right. Like comprehension is reading. Your imagination is stoked by reading. Your ability to hear your own voice is heightened by reading. I'm interested in that. Right. I'm interested in that. So that when they become adults like us and Their lives begin to slow down and bore and become much more banal and mundane. They can actually change the world because they have the tools to do so. I think that literacy, other than the actual physical health of the planet, I think literacy is number two globally, as a global issue, truly. I truly believe that.
- [22:55]
Kate
And you've done a lot of work for the American Library Association. You were ambassador for Banned Books Week. I mean, given where the YA audience is both because of this and because of censorship, are you concerned?
- [23:08]
Jason Reynolds
Yes, full stop. I am concerned. I mean, look, I try not to be concerned. I'm not the kind of person who blows things out of a. It takes me a while to get concerned, but I am concerned because I've been around quite a while and I've never seen it like this. It's a strange thing that's happening, and it's. It's scary. Like, the censorship scares me far more than cell phones.
- [23:39]
Kate
Really?
- [23:40]
Jason Reynolds
Yeah, for me. For. Yeah, I. I think because I had to contend with cell phones years ago and could not beat the cell phone, but at least could stand alongside it. I could at least work alongside the cell phone. I could have something to line up with it. I could say, we're gonna all get on Instagram and we're gonna talk about these books. Or I could say, you can do. The cell phone can actually be a conduit that encourages reading if we know how to use it. But I can't encourage it if there's nothing to read. Right. And the things that they want to read are what's being banned. There has never been a moment in the history of the world where we didn't want to read something dramatic. There needs to be some drama. So what everybody is saying is violent or racist or sexist or blasey blasey blah. I'm like. Or. Or Shakespearean. Are you going to ban Shakespeare? Are you going to ban. Are you going to ban your spiritual text? The Bible, Right. All the violence and. And sex and. And complicated sort of tropes and motifs in our spiritual text. Are we going to ban. Like, when you really think about what they're doing, and this is why. I know it's all such nonsense, right? It's all foolishness. Are you going to ban their video games, by the way? Are we gonna ban that? Are we gonna ban YouTube usage? At what point are we gonna ban TikTok?
- [25:03]
Charlie Gibson
Have you been banned?
- [25:04]
Jason Reynolds
Oh, yeah, I was banned from book one. I was banned in 2013.
- [25:09]
Kate
Yeah.
- [25:11]
Jason Reynolds
I'm banned all the time. When am I not banned? You know, it doesn't, it doesn't really. It doesn't. And it's never bothered me. I mean, it insults me, but it's never bothered me like it is now because now it's, it's more of not just an insult, but an assault on the youth of America by saying they don't have the intellectual or emotional capacity to manage complicated ideas. I mean, they banned When I Was the Greatest because of the gun on the COVID They banned All American Boys because they said it was anti police, which it was not. They banned Long Way down because they said it was racist. There's no mention of race in the story, by the way. They banned Stamped because they said it was racist because it spoke about racism. They banned 24 seconds from now because of sex, which there is no sex in the book. Right?
- [26:02]
Kate
Well, plus, teenagers aren't having sex, so I don't know what you're talking about. Teenagers, they're not having sex. But I mean, in today's climate, when you're banned, do you kind of feel like, okay, like to use your words from an old interview, you know, by being banned in today's climate, are you saving the fish?
- [26:20]
Jason Reynolds
I don't think. I think. I think by writing the book, I've tried to save the fish. I think that being banned sometimes is symptomatic of that. But I would never, ever, ever associate my choices and whether or not I made the right choice for myself by other people's opinions of said choice.
- [26:40]
Charlie Gibson
There are a bunch of people listening, thinking to themselves, what the hell does saving the fish mean? Oh, yeah, I think Kate has required you now to tell the story of saving the fish.
- [26:50]
Jason Reynolds
The shortest version is that I had a high school teacher, Mr. Williams, who's still a good friend of mine. He taught a class called Global Studies, which basically is some weird amorphous made up course that he taught because he was a tenured teacher who just got to do whatever he wanted to do. And we came to class, he bought a pet. He bought a fish in an aquarium, this beautiful fish. And he made us name the fish, which we were all very sort of unenthused about because we were 17, right? We were seniors. You gotta be a senior to take his class. And he said that the only rule about the fish was that we couldn't touch it. And he was like, don't put your fingers in the, in the aquarium. Teenagers are teenagers, you know, so he's like, don't. I know how y' all are. Don't be funny. Don't Try to play around with it. Just feed the fish and sit down and we'll have class. But if you put your fingers on that fish at any moment, then I'll have to suspend you. Cool. A month or so or maybe a couple of weeks goes by and Mr. Williams. We go to class, and Mr. Williams takes the fish out the aquarium and he sets it on the floor. And the fish begins to suffocate and it's flapping around and we all gather around and we're all freaking out. And then eventually two young ladies pick the fish up and they throw the fish back in the aquarium and they save the fish's life. And Mr. Williams suspends them. He sends them down to the office and he suspends them. But he tells them not to. Not to hold their heads down because they did the right thing. And that sometimes doing the right thing has consequences. And so for the rest of my. That day and the rest of my life, I'm always considering whether or not this is a moment where I have to save the fish.
- [28:24]
Kate
One more question before we get to rapid fire. I heard you once say that you write to understand yourself. Still true.
- [28:32]
Jason Reynolds
More than ever. I think that who I am in my 40s has been the most confusing thing ever. And I feel like I'm in puberty all over again. It's so strange. I don't know if you guys have experienced it, but it is the weirdest. I feel like. I truly feel like I'm in a second puberty where my body feels funny and my brain feels all fuzzy and I have all these new ideas about what I want the next half of my life to be like. And I'm imagining who I'll be when I grow up this time. And it's the. I'm having this. So, yes. So long. Long, short. I've never needed it so badly.
- [29:17]
Kate
Some rapid fire questions for Jason Reynolds. How do you like to read? Digital audio, Hardcover, all of the above.
- [29:23]
Jason Reynolds
Softback, paperback.
- [29:24]
Kate
Really? Why?
- [29:26]
Jason Reynolds
I like to destroy books. I got a bend. I got a dog ear. I like to throw them around, throw them in the bag, squeeze them into my back pocket, fold them in half like I'm. I like to break a book all the way down.
- [29:37]
Charlie Gibson
You'll put a book on the table face down?
- [29:40]
Jason Reynolds
Absolutely. Break the spine right open. All of my books have coffee stains, food grease. I mean, like, I'm not precious. I think that books look. It's rapid fire. I'll tell you about the rest of it later, but yes.
- [29:53]
Charlie Gibson
When you were a kid, what author Spoke to you?
- [29:58]
Jason Reynolds
None. Didn't read much as a kid. I didn't read till I was 17. I didn't really develop the muscle for reading until I was 17. So I was more of a music kid. And I loved to read rap lyrics. And so, you know, all the rappers of that time were the ones who. Those were the poets for me.
- [30:16]
Kate
Was there a book at 17 that changed you?
- [30:19]
Jason Reynolds
Sure. It was Black Boy by Richard Wright. And it changed me for. But not for the reason that people would think it changed me, because the book was super interesting from page number two. Right. He doesn't have a lot of expository writing. It jumps right in the fire. Happens immediately. And that's why my books are written the same way. I really. It changed the way I thought storytelling could be.
- [30:41]
Kate
Three writers you will read just because they wrote it.
- [30:46]
Jason Reynolds
Jesmyn Ward, juliatsuka, and, Ooh, probably Kiese Lehman.
- [30:55]
Kate
I loved the Swimmers.
- [30:57]
Jason Reynolds
The Swimmers was what that book was, a masterpiece. It felt like a magic trick.
- [31:03]
Kate
Yeah, we talked to her. We talked to her, and I literally, like, my first question was, like, how do you do what you do?
- [31:09]
Jason Reynolds
I don't know. I think that she is criminally underrated, and I think that her hand is so deft that people don't really know how to take the work. Like, she's writing with such a deft hand. The Swimmers, I mean, Buddha in the Attic. We can go on and on. Julia Tsuka, I think, is a master at a very particular style that is her own.
- [31:31]
Kate
Best piece of advice you've ever received about writing?
- [31:35]
Jason Reynolds
Ooh, dang, that's a good one. The best. Okay. The best and worst. It's the same. It's the same piece of advice. Walter Dean Myers told me before he died that he asked me what my schedule was. At the time. I was still working in a clothing store in New York City. It was in my 20s. And I told him I was writing two and a half pages in the morning and two and a half pages at night. And he said, okay, so you're writing five pages a day. He said, if you're doing that five days a week, that's 25 pages a week, and that's a hundred pages a month. He said, so that's a book every three months and four a year. If you keep that schedule, they'll always publish you. Like, they won't have a choice but to always publish you. And that's the reason why, at the beginning of my career there was so much work happening so fast, is because that was the way I was taught. Now it's the worst piece of advice. Just because no one should live their lives like that. That's brutal.
- [32:35]
Kate
It's like trying to walk in an avalanche.
- [32:38]
Jason Reynolds
Exactly. That's brutal.
- [32:41]
Charlie Gibson
Every writer says it's so hard. Why?
- [32:45]
Jason Reynolds
Why is it hard? Oh, gosh. You know, this is a terrible. You know, this segment of the show, I have to say, is a bit of a setup, because y' all are like, this is rapid fire. I'm gonna ask the deepest, most existential questions, but I want you to answer it very quickly. Right. And like what? What's the meaning of life? Go.
- [33:07]
Kate
Exactly. Why are we here on this earth? Ready?
- [33:11]
Jason Reynolds
Okay. Why is it hard? To me, it is difficult because it is impossible for me to show up to the page without all of my other selves showing up with it. Right. And so the. And so my insecure self, my arrogant self, my lazy self, who that wants to procrastinate, my goofy self that is immature, like my exhausted self, my concerned and anxious self, all of those selves are with me every time I sit down to do my work. And I have to figure out how to push back the ones that work, that don't work for me in this moment, for this scene, Right? And then I have to push forward the ones that do and I have to do, do that dance all day long every single day. So that's number one. Number two, it's difficult because language is living and therefore is changing. And so the rules to writing aren't actually rules. And because there are no real rules, especially as a creative writer, then you're always. You always feel like you're flailing around in an ocean, trying to figure out how to get some sort of grip on something solid so that you can figure out how to make your way every single time. Right. Jesmyn Ward told me that when she was writing Let Us Descend, it almost felt like she'd forgotten how to type. And this is a woman who's already a legend in her own Right. Right. And so I think that's the other reason it's hard. And then the last thing I'll say is that it's hard because it just is. Writing is a difficult. It's like asking why it's running hard because it is. Because the wear and tear on the body makes it difficult and uncomfortable. It's no different as a writer. The wear and tear on my body and my mind and my spirit and my emotions and my insecurities and all those things are inflamed every single Time I sit down at the page. It is difficult by nature. It is inherently difficult.
- [34:58]
Kate
All right, we're going to ask you one really unfair existential question as a rapid fire question as opposed to these. Yeah, exactly. But do know that when we asked John Irving this question, he got out of pen and paper and took about 20 minutes to cross. He had drafts in five words. We stole this question from Stephen Colbert in five words. What do you want the rest of your life to be?
- [35:18]
Jason Reynolds
Wow. What do I want the rest of my life to be in five words? Honestly, a really, really good time.
- [35:26]
Charlie Gibson
Jason Reynolds, thank you very much.
- [35:27]
Kate
Thank you so much.
- [35:28]
Charlie Gibson
It is great pleasure to talk to you. So, Jason Reynolds, young adult author, but speaks to adults as well as young adults and actually does some writing for adults as well. But this book's soundtrack is solidly in the young adult. But as I say, I left the young adult category a long time ago. I really liked the book.
- [35:52]
Kate
First of all, if you get a chance, look up some of Jason Reynolds speeches, his talks, his interviews. I mean, if he was the leader of a movement, I would follow. But I think one of the things that he said when he was asked about being a YA writer is, look, you know, To Kill a Mockingbird and Catcher in the Rye are considered YA books. And they are two books that have sold the most copies in American history. People still read them and discuss them today, and they are still relevant today. So YA books, I think, when they are really good, are prolific to an almost unknown extent. So thank you, Jason Reynolds, for sitting with us.
- [36:26]
Charlie Gibson
We'll tell you again about the people who make this podcast possible. And then a coda from Jason Reynolds.
- [36:33]
Kate
The book Case with Kate and Charlie Gibson is a production of ABC Audio and Good Morning America. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions. Our executive producer is Simone Swink. We want to make mention of Amanda McMaster, Sabrina Colberg, Arielle Chester at Good Morning America, and Josh Cohan from ABC Audio. Follow the bookcase wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to listen, rate and review. If you'd like to find any of the books mentioned in this episode, we have them linked in the episode description.
- [37:02]
Jason Reynolds
In order to make something real, it has to have a name. And in order to give something a name, the person doing the naming has to have language, right? And that is the way we build culture. That is the way we build our systems, internal and external. It is the most valuable thing we have, right? The ability to name a thing that is unnamed and I'll leave it there. Foreign.
- [37:36]
Charlie Gibson
Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.
- [37:38]
Jason Reynolds
I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium
- [37:41]
Charlie Gibson
wireless for 15amonth plan that I've been enjoying.
- [37:44]
Jason Reynolds
It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have
- [37:48]
Charlie Gibson
one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today.
- [37:51]
Jason Reynolds
I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com
- [37:54]
Kate
Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only Price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.
- [38:04]
Charlie Gibson
See full terms@mintmobile.com.