Jenny Lawson Wants You to Be Okay

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Book Case – “Jenny Lawson Wants You to Be Okay”

Date: April 2, 2026
Hosts: Charlie Gibson & Kate Gibson
Guest: Jenny Lawson, author of How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay
Featuring: Vicki Leondo, Events Coordinator at Nowhere Bookshop

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Book Case welcomes bestselling author and humorist Jenny Lawson to discuss her new book, How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay. Charlie and Kate Gibson explore Lawson’s unique take on self-help and advice literature, embracing humor and vulnerability to navigate the darkest moments of depression. The conversation blends lighthearted anecdotes with candid talk about mental health, offering practical insights, memorable quotes, and a sincere invitation to find laughter—and community—in hard times. The episode concludes with rapid-fire questions for Jenny and a spotlight on her San Antonio bookstore, Nowhere Books.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Jenny Lawson’s Unique Approach to Self-Help

• Humor as a Survival Tool: Lawson’s new book is not a typical self-help guide but rather her personal “toolbox” for coping with treatment-resistant depression. Her comedic tone sets it apart, making dark subjects approachable and relatable.
• Reluctance Toward Advice: Both Jenny and the hosts admit skepticism toward traditional self-help books, finding many of them didactic. Jenny prefers to call her book an “advice book” rooted in lived experience.
  • Jenny Lawson (08:15): “To me, it is more of an advice book because all of these things that are in here are things that I have personally messed up.... Here is how I have learned to deal with them.”
• Reader Connection: Jenny’s openness cultivates a sense of community among readers who may feel isolated by their struggles—turning embarrassment and vulnerability into sources of camaraderie.

2. Blending Comedy and Seriousness

• Funny Readings: The episode opens with Jenny reading a hilarious passage about hot yoga (02:17).

  “Hot yoga, which is like regular yoga if it literally took place in hell... I have named this position the Completely Unnecessary Paperweight.” — Jenny Lawson

• Emotional Depths: Contrasted with levity, she shares a serious excerpt about the “helplessness that comes from being empathetic in a world where I am constantly bombarded with a million messages of things going wrong” (04:45).

  > “It can feel selfish to practice self care or to find laughter, or simply live when the world seems like a dumpster fire. But these feelings are traps designed to distract you, drain you, and keep you from moving forward.” — Jenny Lawson
  

• The Power of Laughter: Humor is described as both shield and bridge, inviting others into understanding rather than keeping them at bay.

  • Jenny Lawson (16:41): “I use humor as an on ramp to invite people in to the darkest parts... If you laugh at something that's big, it becomes a smaller monster.”

3. Honest Talk About Depression

• “Depression Lies” Mantra: Jenny expands on her pivotal phrase from past work— “depression lies.” She details how mental illness distorts reality, and how internalizing this truth is both hard and vital.

  “Your brain tells you things that sound absolutely illogical when you are not in depression... reminding yourself over and over, this is not real. Those things are lies.” — Jenny Lawson (13:21)

• Support Systems: The conversation, including candid self-disclosure by Kate about alcoholism, delves into reframing “tricky brains” and the role of community, therapy, and humor as lifelines (14:49–16:25).

4. Building the Toolbox—Writing and Process

• Organization Challenges: Jenny confesses the chaos of organizing her thoughts and stories, with a “murder board” covered in post-its, cats stealing notes, and her editor forcing structure (11:22).
• Book as Ongoing Journey: She rejects the notion of a fixed set of solutions—both mental health strategies and creative tools must evolve over time.

  “Oh, it is absolutely lifelong because it does continue to change.... The same thing goes with this.” — Jenny Lawson (19:29)

5. Rapid Fire & Personal Quirks ([25:05])

• Laugh-out-loud moments and quirks round out the episode:
  • Funniest Writer: Samantha Irby (25:10)
  • Book Organization: “Supposed to be by color, but there’s no rhyme or reason.” (25:12–25:15)
  • Finishing a Manuscript: Feels “panic,” then eventual celebration mixed with a little depression as the work leaves her hands (25:58–27:16)
  • Favorite Room: “Whatever room my cats are in” or the back porch, where she reads on weekends (27:18)
  • Weird Desk Items: Taxidermied swing-dancing squirrels and a rat in burlesque pasties (“six pasties for each one of her nipples”) (27:47–28:12)
    • Jenny’s ethical taxidermy sources: roadkill and antique finds, often accessorized later.

6. Spotlight: Nowhere Bookshop & Book Events ([29:18])

Guest: Vicki Leondo, Events Coordinator

• Book Launches & Pre-orders: Launching Jenny’s own book acts as the grand finale of her tour, with lots of pre-order activity (29:58).
• Hosting Authors: Having Jenny as an owner helps attract major writers; sometimes events are in the store, sometimes at larger venues (30:59–31:32).
• Community and Inclusivity: Navigating the challenges of hosting open-minded events in a conservative neighborhood while maintaining a welcoming, progressive ethos (31:32–32:11).
• Event Realities: Not all author events bring crowds, but staff pivot to create intimate, book-club-like gatherings instead of letting authors see them sweat (33:44–34:28).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Writing Self-Help with Reluctance:

  “I've never done sort of a self-help-y kind of thing before. And I just keep thinking, I wonder if people are going to pick this up and, you know, find me for the first time and go, oh, self help...And like, my footnotes are all about like, is it can you buy a decapitated head? And you know how to leave a party early?”
  — Jenny Lawson (06:44)

• On Reader Community:

  “None of us are really alone. Like, we're all struggling, maybe different struggles, but everyone is struggling.”
  — Jenny Lawson (09:24)

  “If you find the people who can find the joy and laughter, in not a mean way, but in a like, we're all in this together, let's just laugh about it through our tears, that is such a gift.”
  — Jenny Lawson (18:46)

• Favorite Writers & Inspiration:

  “You think your pain and your heartbreak are unprecedented in the history of the world. But then you read James Baldwin.”
  — Jenny Lawson (36:37, coda)

• On Event Management:

  “You can’t let an author see you sweat. As the coordinator, you constantly have to act like you’re not panicking.”
  — Vicki Leondo (34:28)

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Notable Segment Timestamps

• Start/Funny Reading: 02:17 — Jenny reads from her hot yoga story
• Serious Reading: 04:45 — Jenny on empathy, self-care, and feeling trapped by world events
• Writing Process/Organization: 11:22 — Jenny describes storyboarding chaos and helpful-yet-annoyed cat
• "Depression Lies" Explained: 13:21
• Humor vs. Sincerity in Depression: 16:41
• Toolbox Evolution Over Time: 19:29
• Rapid Fire Q&A: 25:05–29:17
• Taxidermy Hijinks: 27:47–28:55
• Nowhere Bookshop with Vicki Leondo: 29:18–35:05
• Closing Coda/Quote: 36:37

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Tone and Takeaways

The tone throughout is candid, compassionate, and offbeat—affirming that laughter and vulnerability can coexist, even (or especially) in the darkest moments. Jenny Lawson’s candid self-deprecation and surreal humor make space for hard conversations about depression, self-care, and the myth of “having it all together.” Both her book and this episode invite listeners to embrace their quirks, build individualized toolkits, and seek out community—reminding us, in Lawson’s words, that none of us are ever truly alone.

For readers and listeners who may shy away from advice books: Jenny Lawson makes the case for trying advice that doesn’t prescribe, but instead shares, connects, and encourages us to laugh—even if it’s through tears.

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Transcript

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[Kate Gibson]

Hello and happy Thursday. Book nerds. Spring is knocking on our door and I am very, very excited about today's show because it is an author of which I am a huge fan. So we'll hurry up and get to the introductions and live them down quickly.

I'm Kate Gibson.

[Charlie Gibson]

And I'm Charlie Gibson. And if you live in Minnesota, you're hungering for spring. I live in the state of Washington and it's lovely. It's a beautiful day and there's no rain. And I know it becomes a joke about the state of Washington and all the rain. I don't mind it, but it will be nice to have it a little warmer.

[Kate Gibson]

But that being said, we always get

one really angry snowstorm in April.

Prince wrote the song Sometimes it snows in April.

A lot of people think it's a metaphor. It was not. Prince lived here.

[Charlie Gibson]

So as Kate alluded, we have a brand new book for your consideration this week. It's a Jenny Lawson book. The name of the book is how to Be okay When Nothing Is okay.

[Kate Gibson]

Woo hoo.

[Charlie Gibson]

And it is. Well, Kate's a big fan and I have become one and hear me out. It's a self help or advice book, but if you know anything about Jenny Lawson, you know how very, very funny she is and how she herself is plagued by bouts of severe depression. So how to Be okay When Nothing Is okay is sort of her toolbox for how she deals with it. So it's not a straight on self help book. It is a book that she herself needs and she uses these tools when she is in deep depression. But it is funny. That's what sets it apart. And we asked her to read one of the very, very funny passages in the book.

[Jenny Lawson]

Hailey had encouraged me to join them for something called hot yoga, which is like regular yoga if it literally took place in hell. About halfway through, I saw God, probably a heat induced hallucination. I was shaking so much it looked like I was being personally targeted by an extremely localized earthquake. And I was Sweating so profusely it looked like I had peed on my yoga mat, which I might have instead of the calmness that I was promised. I violently hated everyone in the room, including the instructor, who whispered, you can use this as she handed me what seemed to be a very fancy brick. For some reason, I considered throwing it through the window to let in a breeze, but my muscles had stopped working. So instead I gave up and sprawled out on my mat like a giant starfish, with the brick perched on my stomach until it was over. I have named this position the Completely Unnecessary Paperweight.

[Kate Gibson]

We wanted to start with the funny and I also want to say before, because we're going to let her read a serious section because we want you to see that this is also very well written and that it really does reach out to readers. But I want to say that my father and I also don't like self help books and we loved this. Here's why I don't usually love self help books, because the first chapter is here is why you need this book. Here are all the things you were doing wrong. And then the next few chapters are all about, here's how I did it right and here's how you can apply what I do to what you do. And to me it always feels very didactic. And I don't like those books. Now you may, you may find those inspiring and that's okay. More power to you.

[Charlie Gibson]

Robin Roberts and I have had this conversation many, many times. She finds them helpful and if she finds them helpful, great. I just don't. But this book different. I'm sorry I interrupted you.

[Kate Gibson]

No, it's okay. This book is different because it's essentially Jenny Lawson suffers from treatment resistant depression. So when she goes down, she goes way down. And so she has had to amass a huge number of techniques and tools in order to get herself to right the ship, as it were. So basically what she's doing is opening her toolbox to us. And she does it with great humor and great heart. And the first time that I read Jenny Lawson, I think the first book I read of hers was let's Pretend this Never Happened. I felt seen. Whenever I read Jenny Lawson. I feel seen because she makes me laugh at the dark side. And so this is a section that, that helped me feel particularly seen.

[Jenny Lawson]

I often struggle with the helplessness that comes from being empathetic in a world where I am constantly bombarded with a million messages of things going wrong in the world. They can easily get on top of me and leave me paralyzed, filled with dread and unable to appreciate the things that bring me joy. It can feel selfish to practice self care or to find laughter, or simply live when the world seems like a dumpster fire. But these feelings are traps designed to distract you, drain you, and keep you from moving forward. Instead, I do two things when I see myself falling into the dark pit of dread.

[Charlie Gibson]

Yeah, when he first had Jenny Lawson, I think it was three or four years ago with us for one of her earlier books. My favorite line was, read the jokes. It's very funny. Then stay for the serious parts. And then she gets back to the jokes.

[Vicki Leondo]

Yeah.

[Charlie Gibson]

And that makes it such a wonderful read. And as she says, as you'll hear her say, this is my toolbox. You know, take it or leave it. But it may be different five years from now. Anyway, we love talking to Jenny Lawson. And, and, well, I'll say it after we've talked to her. Here's our, here's our conversation.

[Kate Gibson]

Gives you something to stay tuned for.

His dad has thoughts.

[Jenny Lawson]

Dad has thoughts.

[Charlie Gibson]

We need to book for people who have scattered thoughts like us. Anyway, here's our conversation with Jenny Lawson.

[Kate Gibson]

Jenny Lawson. You know, I am a huge fan of yours, so I'm really excited to have you back in the bookcase. I generally avoid self help books and I am, I think one of the reasons that I so enjoyed this one and was tickled so much by this one is it seems like I am reading an inspirational advice book with someone who struggles with the idea of getting any advice.

[Charlie Gibson]

Is there a question here?

[Kate Gibson]

Not really. Well, I wanted to know how you conquered your like innate hatred of advice and taking orders into giving advice and

releasing it to the world.

[Jenny Lawson]

When I was writing this, I wanted it to first of all be very accessible, very easy to get into, very much organized in a way that you can sit down and read it all the way through in a day or two. If you're having a bad time, you can go, okay, well, I need to read something about how am I going to deal with, you know, this part of my depression or with anxiety or imposter syndrome or creativity or you can just kind of, kind of pick and choose. And then I threw a lot of humor in there, which I think, and I am a little bit worried, I have to say. So this book is coming out and I, you know, this, I've never done sort of a, you know, self helpy kind of thing before. And I just keep thinking, I wonder if people are going to pick this up and, you know, find me for the first time and Go, oh, self help, you know, with therapists and doctors and people who know what they're doing and they've got their research together and they've got their footnotes. And like, my footnotes are all about like, is it can you buy a decapitated head? And you know how to leave a party early? And just. It's. Yeah, yeah. I'm a little worried I'm going to disappoint some people or scare them.

[Charlie Gibson]

So I, I read the book before Kate did and I called her up and I said, it's very funny. It's Jenny Lawson, but it is a self help book that is very funny. And she said, well, Jenny actually doesn't like that. She would rather have it characterized as an advice book. So which is it in your mind and tell me the difference.

[Jenny Lawson]

To me, it is more of an advice book because all of these things that are in here are things that I have personally messed up. So they're all learn from my mistakes. Here are the things that I have gotten wrong. Here is how I have learned to deal with them. And that's one of the things that I do feel really comfortable about, is the fact that this is sort of my personal toolbox of here are a hundred things that worked for me, whether they're reframing or, or their tools. There's, you know, all sorts of different things and everybody's different, right? So the thing that works for me is maybe not going to be what works for you, but if I put a hundred in there, you're probably going to find three where you go, yep, she knows what she's talking about. Maybe the other 97 you'll go, this lady's crazy.

[Kate Gibson]

I want to ask you about your dedication. I'll just have you tell us about it rather than I telling the audience with less articulation and less emotion where the dedication of the book came from. And was that the inspiration for conquering an advice book when you yourself are not an advice person?

[Jenny Lawson]

There are so many times when I go out on book tour where somebody will come up in line and they have the same eyes that I do this, like, panicky sort of look. And they're, they just think, you talked to me in a way that I knew that I wasn't alone. And I felt very alone before. And I have them, like, turn around and see the line behind them and recognize that none of us are really alone. Like, we're all struggling, maybe different struggles, but everyone is struggling. And then I have to remind myself of that as well. On a On a pretty regular basis. Like, it shouldn't. It should be like, oh, everybody else is doing great. I'm looking at them on the Internet, and they look perfectly fine. Everything looks happy. But instead, you look at those and. And if you don't know that, those are lies. You know, the people that have it completely together all the time, it. It really messes with your head. So being able to find those people. You know, I always say, if you go to a dinner party, which I don't because I'm scared of people, but if I did, and I was sitting with people, and there was one person who, like, has everything together, and they're like, look at me. I'm so. Like, I've got the perfect car and the perfect family. And then I look, I'm super skinny, and I never worry about diarrhea or whatever. And then the person next to me on the other side is like, this is the most embarrassing thing that happened to me in seventh grade. First of all, I will love it. I will love you. Then I feel comfortable because I can be authentic and be like, let me tell you the most embarrassing thing that happened to me yesterday. And suddenly you're sharing and you're deep, and that is what humanity is about.

[Kate Gibson]

So when you finally said, okay, I want to write this book, what was your plan? Did you have rules? Did you say, the book will not

be this, the book will be this?

Or were you just like, oh, heck, I'm just going to take a shot at this, and then we'll just cut around the edges.

[Jenny Lawson]

I am very bad at organization, which is one of the things of all these tools that I have to use for organization. And so when. When I finally was like, oh, you know what? I think this actually is a book. And it got to the point where I had an editor, and, you know, she started looking at it, and she was like, this is all great, but it is just. There's no order to this. I was like, oh, no, absolutely not. And so. And so she was like, okay, well, let's, you know, think about how you want to divide it up. And I was like, okay, well, I maybe like part of its brain and part of its heart. And she was like, okay, maybe. And I was like, no, maybe it's this, maybe it's that. And then. And we kept going back and forth and back and forth. And I was like, can we just put it in a big glob? Like it is. And she was like, no, that's not how people like to find things. And so I ended Up. If you could see the. It looks like a murder board. It is an enormous storyboard where I have written out all of these ridiculous titles and they're all like circled and it's like, does this go here? Does this come here? Ooh. Maybe creativity is what I mean. Oh, is this motivation or is this encouragement? Or is this, oh, focus, memory and it. And then, then in the middle of it, I'm like, I don't have enough room and so I have to get another piece of paper and I'm like tying things and it is all over the. My. My office floor. And then a cat comes in and I have this orange monster who loves to eat paper and especially post it notes because there's something. There's something in the adhesive that is, I guess, animal based. And so he walks in and he just picks up. Cause I have the post it notes all over and I'm moving them around and he just picks one up and runs. And I'm having to like, try to pull it out of his mouth because I don't remember what it said.

[Charlie Gibson]

There's one line and I forgot if it's in this book or one of your earlier books. It stuck with me and I think about it a lot. You wrote depression lies to you. Tell me what that means or how that manifests itself.

[Jenny Lawson]

Your brain tells you things that sound absolutely illogical when you are not in a depression of the world would be better off without you. You're too much work. It's not worth going to get help. And these things when you're in a depression are such cunning lies, but they sound so absolutely true. And it doesn't matter how many times I have been through a depression, when I'm in one, there'll be just a little piece of me that listens and says, oh, that sounds right. And then I have to remind myself, depression lies. It will tell you the worst possible lies. And when I come out, which, you know, my depressions usually last anywhere from two days to two weeks generally. And when I come out and it feels, I mean literally, it feels like. Like I can breathe again. And when I do, I can look back at those lies and think, wow, that was. That was nuts. Why would I possibly think that? But when you're in it, it's just such a vulnerable place. So reminding yourself over and over, this is not real. This stuff that's going on in my mind, that is saying the worst things ever. Things that you would never say to anyone else because they're so cruel. Those things are lies. Those things are just what your depression is doing to you.

[Kate Gibson]

I'm an alcoholic, and I'm a member

of a group that, you know, recognizes other alcoholics.

And we talk about being wary of your own brain, that we're very wary of the fact that our disease wants to get us alone so it can kill us, because the first lie we tell ourselves is, we could have just one drink. That's not a problem. But because we've become so wary of our own brain, we know not to trust those feelings. But that takes training. That takes connections. That takes reframing things in your brain, as you said. And it's hard.

[Jenny Lawson]

Oh, my gosh, it is. It is so hard because I. I mean, our brains are the most incredible things, but they're also the most manipulative things. They are. So, I mean, just like anything that has extreme power, has danger associated with it, I think it does help to have. Have support, have a community, have a. Even if it's just, you know, being able to call a crisis line or reach out and, you know, do that. First step to find a therapist, which is, you know, when you're in the middle of a depression, you have no energy, you are absolutely exhausted. You've convinced yourself that you are not worth the work that it's going to take. And for some reason, it is so hard to take those first steps to, like, find the right. To find the right doctor, to find somebody who takes your insurance, to find the right medication and to. And you have to go through all of this stuff. And it is. It becomes so easy for your head to say, maybe this is too much. Like, why can't you just be normal? You know, just smile.

[Charlie Gibson]

Would a sense of humor be a good antidote for depression? Or does the sense of humor hold people off so that they don't get too close and that you can take those people in moderation and not have to share too much.

[Jenny Lawson]

That is a good question, because I think a lot of people do use humor as a way to be like, ha, ha, I'm fine. For me, I use humor as an on ramp to invite people in to the darkest parts. Because, like, I think it can be overwhelming, especially people who have never dealt with that before and think this is scary, but if I can make some sort of a joke about it, very often they can feel like, okay, well, all bets are off. You know, maybe there's something here for me. Maybe I'm not, you know, maybe it's not as scary. Like, if you laugh at something that's big, it becomes A smaller monster. And I. I also think that it kind of depends. I'm the. I'm the. The, like, laugh at a funeral person. I am the, like, my. My absolute favorite, the funniest moments are typically the ones that are the, honestly, the most awful. And I. I feel so, so lucky that my family, or at least my. My mom and my sister have the same sense of humor. If we can find joy in this and we can find laughter in this, even in the scary part, then it becomes something that I can own and something that I can deal with and something that I can use to move forward. My grandmother died during COVID before the vaccines. She was in the emergency room, and this was at a time when you couldn't be in with anybody else. And the doctor called and they were like, I'm so sorry, she's passed. And we were like, well, that's really sad. But, you know, she was older. She probably would have wanted to go. And then they called right back and they were like, oh, we got it wrong. We got it wrong. It was somebody else. It was somebody else. She's alive again. And my mom called. She was like, never mind. I guess she's. She's alive. And she's like, hang on a second. And she's like, nope, she died again. She. No, now she's. Now she's really dead. And I'm like, like zombie Granny. And we could not stop laughing, even though it was so sad, it was so funny. And. And my sister and I were like, granny would have loved this. I wish she was alive just to hear this. This story. Because she could not have planned this better. And she absolutely would have been the laugh at a funeral. It just. If you find the people who can find the joy and laughter in not a mean way, but in a. Like, we're all in this together. Let's just laugh about it through our tears. That is such a gift.

[Kate Gibson]

One of the things you said in your book is that a friend gave you a piece of advice which says, just because something is working for you now and lifting you up now and inspiring you now, it doesn't mean that that's going to work a few weeks from now. So I wanted to ask you, is. Is Jenny, the writer of this advice book, is Jenny Lawson ever going to stop searching for more tips and tricks that work for her, or is this a lifelong process?

[Jenny Lawson]

Oh, it is absolutely lifelong because it does continue to change. And you know, it's interesting because it's very similar to. With my depression because it is treatment resistant. You do still. It's a weird name because treatment resistant makes it sound like give up on treatment. But instead what it means is you try lots of different treatments and something may work for a while and then it stops working. And the same thing goes with this. But very often before I knew a lot about especially treatment resistant depression, when I would take a medication and I would realize, okay, well this isn't working. And then I would try another one and that wouldn't work either. And I would feel like I am failing my doctor. I have failed science and medication. And that's not true at all. It's really just that that failed to work for me. Like if, if somebody has cancer and they're like, oh, okay, well this type of chemotherapy didn't work, they wouldn't go like, well, we give up. They'd go, okay, now we'll go to the next thing. Now we'll go to the next thing. You never say like, I blame your cancer. It just, you just, you keep working. And so, you know, that's, that's the same way with, with this book. I really think like these were, these are like the things that are helping me. I would say the last five years, these are the biggest tools that I have. But probably five years from now I will have a completely different list of things of like, okay, well, some, some of this stopped working for me, some of this was working even more. Some of this, that didn't work for me in the past. I mean, who knows, maybe one day I'll be one of those people who will be like, oh, you know what's really great? Running. I mean, I doubt it. That sounds awful, but maybe.

[Charlie Gibson]

Jenny Lawson, it's a pleasure to talk to you again. These are important books because people go through so much of what you go through to hear the ebullience and your voice sounds up all the time and I gives you hope. It's hard to me to imagine sometimes that you're going through this kind of tough stuff, but you write about it very helpfully. And so as somebody who is wary of advice books or self help books, I was delighted to have read this.

[Kate Gibson]

For sure.

[Vicki Leondo]

For sure.

[Jenny Lawson]

Thank you so much. That's so lovely. Thank you. And I have such a good time with you guys. You guys are amazing. I wish you lived here in my house and we would just like eat cheese and binge watch tv.

[Kate Gibson]

Would love that.

[Charlie Gibson]

Jenny Lawson again, the book how to be okay When Nothing is okay. You know, it's interesting, she has deep depression as she is so frankly talks about and yet her voice, I hope she doesn't object to this word, her voice is sort of chirpy and she's up and enthusiastic and it sort of belies the very serious and deep depressions that she's talking about.

[Vicki Leondo]

Yeah.

[Kate Gibson]

But it also, I think, speaks to what a sneaky bastard depression is that it can sneak up on the cheery trooper, you know, people that are very, very funny. And again, she uses her humor as a great portal into her depression. She doesn't use it to keep people at bay. She uses it to bring people in and says, hey, these really dark, horrible things happen to me and I have no choice but to laugh at them. So please laugh at them with me. And I hope it encourages people to laugh at their own darknesses and that maybe that will allow people to be

more open about that.

[Charlie Gibson]

So we'll take a break. When we come back, we have some rapid fire questions for Jenny. And you won't believe what she has on her desk. It involves taxidermy and animals that you would not think you want on your desk. Also, Jenny owns a bookstore, Nowhere Books in San Antonio, Texas. And the events manager of that bookstore is a young woman named Vicki Leondo. We talked to her about what it's like to, to work for Jenny. But wait till you hear what's on Jenny's desk. You're not going to believe it. We'll be back.

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[Vicki Leondo]

Did you say someone got shot?

[Charlie Gibson]

Brian Pata, senior defensive lineman from Miami gunned down. The key to this case, It's Brian,

[Jenny Lawson]

an hour before he died, he was on the phone arguing with somebody.

[Ryan Reynolds]

This might be a hit.

[Jenny Lawson]

You want the truth, they just want a conviction.

[Charlie Gibson]

Being placed under arrest. We had a killer amongst us. Murder at the U.

[Jenny Lawson]

Listen now.

[Charlie Gibson]

Some rapid fire questions for Jenny Lawson. Is there a writer who makes you laugh?

[Jenny Lawson]

Samantha Irby. Love her.

[Kate Gibson]

Okay, how do you arrange your book collection?

[Jenny Lawson]

It is supposed to be by order of color, but I've moved recently and I thought, okay, well, I'll just put it all up on the shelves and then next week I will go and put it in order. And that was six months ago and you can see it behind me. And no, there is no rhyme or reason to it whatsoever. Except for these are books that I need to read and these are books that I've already read.

[Charlie Gibson]

You put all the orange books together and all the blue books together and all the.

[Jenny Lawson]

I do, because in my head I can never remember, like, who was the author. Sometimes I can't even remember, like, what was the title, but I can remember, okay, it had a red cover.

[Kate Gibson]

What is the emotion that you feel

when you turn in a manuscript and do you do anything to celebrate?

[Jenny Lawson]

I feel panic. The. I. I really am very lucky that the people that I work with understand enough to say, I got this manuscript. I'm not going to open it until Monday. Do not panic. If you don't hear from me. I love you. I'm not mad at you. Even if this is awful, I will still love you, which is such a wonderful thing. And then after they look at it and say, yeah, this is good, I feel. I very often feel a little depressed because it feels like a big part of that project is over and now it's a team project instead of this little baby that I've made by myself. So I, I very much try to make myself celebrate as much as I can and go back and say, this is a good thing. This is an adventure, this is an experience. Don't just get mired up in the, the angst of creating. Like, really love those moments. Especially those, like, in the zone moments where you think, oh, that was. That's exactly what I want to say. Because it doesn't always come that way, right? Sometimes you're struggling for weeks and then suddenly, oh, this is how I need to write that thing. Oh, finally I've got it.

[Charlie Gibson]

What's your favorite room in your house?

[Jenny Lawson]

Whatever room my cats are in. But I will say the room that I like the most is not a room, it's my back porch. Because that's where I go to read. And every single weekend, that is where you will find me. On a little porch swing, reading a book.

[Charlie Gibson]

And finally, what's the strangest thing on your writing desk?

[Kate Gibson]

Oh, God, don't ask Danny that question. She's not just like.

She's got really weird stuff on her desk, man.

[Jenny Lawson]

I have. I have. Right here at my desk, I have two taxidermied squirrels who are. They're doing a swing dance together, and they're wearing, like, rockabilly clothes. And then right behind them, I have a burlesque taxidermied rat. And what's really lovely about this is that she's wearing six pasties for each one of her nipples. And I just.

[Kate Gibson]

Yeah, I didn't think we were going to be talking about rats with pasties. This is why when he wrote that question down, I'm like, you're going to get a seriously weird answer, man. Are you. By the way, are you doing your own taxidermy now? Like, are we saving sawdust and newspaper and trying to shove it into dead animals yet?

[Jenny Lawson]

I can't. I can't do it. I. And all of the. The taxidermy that I have is either ethical, like, you know, I have taxidermist friends who, you know, get a lot of roadkill, or lots of it is. I'll find really old pieces that are, you know, 200 years old and are kind of falling apart. And I'm like, this guy needs a top hat, and let's bedazzle this.

[Kate Gibson]

So did you purchase the rat and then make the pasties, or was it sent to you in its stripper outfit?

[Jenny Lawson]

That one. That one was created by someone else with much more talent. I can't figure out how to draw, how to. How to make the clothes I'm really good at. Hats, wigs, makeup, the fake eyelashes. If it's just a head, I find like a head at an estate sale. I'm like, oh, I've got this, but if I have to dress it.

[Kate Gibson]

So, as Jenny mentioned, she has a

bookstore Nowhere Books on Broadway in San Antonio. The assistant manager slash events coordinator Vicki Leondo's life is very busy right now because when Jenny comes out with the book, as you can imagine, lots of folks are drawn to know where books. And of course, Jenny will be doing a stop on her tour at her own bookstore. So I would imagine Vicki's life is a little crazy right now. She took a moment to pause and talk to us, and we're thankful for that. So here she is. Vicki, Leando,

Do you have A book coming out next week. So what are you doing as event? Like what hat are you wearing as events coordinator to launch the book at her store?

[Vicki Leondo]

I mean we're actually going to be the tail end of her tour. So a lot of what we're doing right now is actually the pre order stuff. We did the sign pre order through the store and so all of that is going through our warehouse. We've got it signed, putting all the goodies together and getting all of those shipped out. So we actually get a little bit of a break on the event end. It's not starting here, it's ending here. We have lots of other event stuff happening in the meantime.

[Charlie Gibson]

There's no secret that book tours are arduous for an author and it's something of a coup when a bookstore can book a really popular author. Is it easier for you being owned by a well known author?

[Vicki Leondo]

It definitely doesn't hurt. Jenny has so many wonderful friends. You know, she's a very beloved author and so there were a lot of people that wanted to come here in support of her. So we had some wonderful authors reach out and want to get involved in the beginning and I think it's helped us establish program and our events that get people excited to come here. But it doesn't, it doesn't hurt at all to have a New York Times bestselling author as your owner when it comes to events.

[Kate Gibson]

You have a relatively big space though. Are you able to have the events in house?

[Vicki Leondo]

It depends on the author for sure. Our space is, you know, at once bigger and smaller than it looks at capacity. We can hold about 80 seating and 20 more standings. So we can get 100 in the store which like is a lot for certain authors and then not a lot for certain authors. So it really depends. Sometimes we take it on the road and we've sold 200 up to 600 depending on the venue of the author.

[Kate Gibson]

Something that Jenny mentioned when we talked to her the other day. And I don't want to get too political, but you are in a conservative city in Texas and you are a very open minded bookstore with liberal leaning. So do you have to book events to. I mean because this country is so divided, do you ever worry about your events? Do you have to do de escalation training?

[Vicki Leondo]

We are very fortunate that San Antonio is a rather like, you know, progressive city. We are a bit of a blue dot. Our neighborhood can be a little bit conservative, but we found that our customers know who we are, know what we need. But we definitely. It's something that we take into account every time we.

[Charlie Gibson]

I'm curious how an events coordinator deals with publishers. When you call them and you say one of your authors has got a new book out, we would love to have her or him come to San Antonio and to the Nowhere Bookshop and we'd love to have an event with them. Is there a tripwire, I guess that will get an author to come to San Antonio in terms of how many people will see that authority if he or she comes?

[Vicki Leondo]

Sometimes it depends on the author. You will have some publishers that will voice that they want so many tickets sold that they want bundle tickets, which means you sell ticket with a book and then sometimes no. So you kind of just have to guess. Like there's a lot of like. Because there's very few guarantees. But in my experience, like talking with publicists and the people who do the booking, they really do just want your best guess essentially. So you do have to sell yourself. It is putting yourself, I like to think of it as like you put yourself on the menu per se. Like publicists and the people planning the tour, they essentially read what you have to offer, pick what they think looks tasty.

[Charlie Gibson]

So let me ask you your favorite event that you've ever staged.

[Vicki Leondo]

One of my personal favorites you got to do was David Sedaris. I've been reading David Sedaris since I was a teenager and he's just so funny. Like he's really one of the funniest humans you'll ever meet. And you know, I got the privilege of kind of helping the signing line move along. So I got to spend quite a bit of time with him and he's just, he's a hoot.

[Charlie Gibson]

Have you ever had an event that bombed?

[Vicki Leondo]

Honestly, you're going to have a lot where people don't show up. Especially when you work with indie authors or smaller authors or like new authors with less resources. They're just not going to have that kind of crowd established. And people kind of expect to have like a bookstore to have a built in crowd that just comes to every single event. That's not really the case. So I've been to a lot and I've experienced a lot of events that have. Honestly, you feel a little awkward. You know, it's never fun to have an author event where there's nobody there for the author. It's not a good time. But what I've always tried to do is we're like, we're going to regroup. This is now a book club situation. There's now Four of us here and we're having an intimate chat.

[Kate Gibson]

You're.

[Vicki Leondo]

We're now best friends, and sometimes those have ended up actually being really fun. So, like, there's definitely been times where you're like, this did not go as planned. But I thankfully have never felt like I've had an event that I couldn't recover something from it. I gave them a glass of wine. They get to tell their friends and family there's a stack of their signed books at their local bookstore. Yeah, you can't let an author see you sweat. As the coordinator, you constantly have to act like you're not panicking. Like, I totally expected this. Yeah, no, this is fine. This is exactly what we wanted.

[Kate Gibson]

Vicki, thank you so much joining us from the Nowhere Bookshop.

[Vicki Leondo]

Thank you. It was really nice chatting with you guys.

[Kate Gibson]

Nowhere Books on Broadway in San Antonio. I love talking to authors that I love. And so today was a huge feat for me and last week was huge. Louise Erdrich and Denny Lawson. And next week I'm excited, too. I'm always excited because we always are enthusiastic about the books whose authors we interviewed. Next week we're doing the great Tana French, the Irish mystery writer who has, I don't know, started doing, like, cool western type motifs right smack in the middle of small town Ireland. This is. Does that sound weird? But it isn't. It's really cool and it's compelling. It's also a little weird, but it's awesome. So we're going to talk to the great ton of French next week and our first intern, FCNL Bookstore, because we talked to a bookstore in Ireland as well to pair with her. So a reminder about the great folks who make this podcast possible. And then a coda from the great Jenny Lawson.

[Charlie Gibson]

The Bookcase with Kate and Charlie is a joint production of Good Morning America and ABC Audio. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions and our executive producer is Simone Swink. We want to make special mention of Amanda McMaster, Sabrina Kohlberg and Ariel Chester of ABC Good Morning America and Josh Cohan of ABC Audio. You can follow us and rate and review this podcast wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like to find any of the books mentioned on this podcast, you can find them listed in the episode description.

[Jenny Lawson]

You think your pain and your heartbreak are unprecedented in the history of the world. But then you read James Baldwin. Nine, one, one.

[Charlie Gibson]

Where's the emergency?

[Juju Chang]

It's the middle of the night in a small town on the Jersey shore. Someone reports an abandoned car on a bridge. A search gets underway for the missing driver, 19 year old Sarah Stern.

[Jenny Lawson]

Is it a missing person? Is it a suicide? At this point, nobody knows.

[Juju Chang]

Old friendships, buried cash, and a sinister plot that was once pitched as a movie plays out in real life. I'm juju Chang from 2020 and ABC Audio. Listen now to Bridge of Lies. Wherever you get your podcasts.