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- [00:01]
State Farm Announcer
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doomscrolling.
- [00:06]
Kate Gibson
Smart move.
- [00:07]
State Farm Announcer
Another smart move getting help from one of State Farm's 19,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts, and savings and eligibility vary by state.
- [00:34]
Kate Gibson
Welcome, book nerds, and happy post 4th of July to you. It's about. I don't know, I don't want to acknowledge it's halfway through summer, but summer continues, so we'll just say that. And I am the Kate part of the Kate and Charlie part that hosts the bookcase and hello.
- [00:46]
Charlie Gibson
And we're just getting going on summer. I'm the Charlie part. And even though Kate makes mention of the fact that we're going to drop this podcast after the 4th of July, I want to guarantee all you listeners there's going to be a lot of fireworks in this episode of the podcast. It's all gonna be in Technicolor. It's gonna be. Terri, you're giving me that look.
- [01:05]
Kate Gibson
Yeah, I am. And I'm rolling my. You guys can't see it, but I'm rolling my eyes really hard. I'm really good at rolling my eyes, by the way, because I have fan for a father, so. But I just was impressed with the way we were managing to combine a conversational segue with a dad joke. I thought that was really good. I'm really excited. We're very excited about every show because every show we're essentially recommending a book to you that we both loved. But this week is an author of which I'm a particular fan. When we first started this podcast, the producers were kind enough to allow me to do a little horror series. And as long as we're talking about horror, even though we won't be talking about a particular horror book, let me remind you of those amazing authors that we had on the show. Chris golden was one godfather of the genre. Stephen Graham Jones, an amazing author. Jennifer McMahon, Josh Malerman, and this gentleman who I thought was the crown jewel of the little horror series, Paul Tremblay. Now, again, this is not a horror book, so please don't turn us off. I'm not about to tell you about guts and gore and all that, but every time horror comes up, I feel like I have to put a sandwich board on. Reminds you about its great authors and that I love it.
- [02:04]
Charlie Gibson
But this has nothing to do with horror.
- [02:06]
Kate Gibson
This book, it doesn't. But again, it was a sandwich. It was a sandwich board opportunity. And I saw it and I took it. That's what the American dream is.
- [02:14]
Charlie Gibson
You've just driven away half of our list.
- [02:17]
Kate Gibson
No, I grabbed my dream and wore my sandwich board. I'm an American. American.
- [02:21]
Charlie Gibson
Okay.
- [02:21]
Kate Gibson
Anyway, Paul Tremblay's newest is called Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep.
- [02:26]
Charlie Gibson
Yeah. You could characterize this novel, I think, not as horror. Not, not, not, not. Not as horror. It's disorienting, I think, in a way, but I think we take that as a compliment. The novel keeps you thinking. And I would add, Kate, I think that Tremblay has some very rich imagery in this novel. I kept picturing what he was writing, and I think that's a real skill on the part of a author. And I thought that what I pictured was really interesting. He does many things in this book. Tremblay does he. First, what is always true of a Tremblay novel, he gives you a good story. And this one is not, so far in the future, science fiction. It is, I think, primarily a science fiction book, but it's right around the corner. In this one, a company named Decilion, I think it's called, is using AI and developing a software that can be implanted into the body of a man who is in a vegetative state, and that allows an outsider to create movement for that seemingly lifeless body.
- [03:27]
Kate Gibson
And the outsider that the company chooses is this woman named Julia who's like a semi professional video gamer. And the company sort of hands her a remote control that allows her to move Bernie, which is what she calls this patient in a vegetative state through space. It's on a phone, so I think it probably looks a little something like a Nintendo controller, like a Nintendo PlayStation controller. And as I said, it's a great story. But also through this framework, he gets an opportunity to explore some great questions about AI and its ethics, or lack of ethics. Bernie can't talk, he can't move on his own. But through some of this technology, he begins to sense somehow that he is not in control. And again, Paul does this largely through imagery, I think, which speaks to his talent that you're able to get Bernie's perspective through this.
- [04:13]
Charlie Gibson
And he's really exploring what is consciousness and all that. And if that weren't enough, he has injected some roadblocks into this book to try and keep AI from hijacking his novel. AI programs could, you know, copy books and. And Paul writes that it's done that to some of his books. So he's written some pages with all kinds of strange shapes that will be impossible for AI to imitate. Take that, AI Anyway, he's basically saying, I'm going to make it impossible for you, AI to rip off my book. Read Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep, and you'll see how all this comes together.
- [04:48]
Kate Gibson
And on top of that, there are some interludes, like he breaks the fourth wall and speaks to his readers directly on occasion. It may sound like Paul Tremblay is trying to do a lot in this book, and he is, and I think it's really enjoyable. A great conversation starter and I think also some real darkness about what we might be facing in the future. So we'll let Paul Tremblay make the case for the book. So here it is, our conversation with Paul Tremblay.
- [05:11]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
Foreign.
- [05:16]
Charlie Gibson
It's really great to have you in the bookcase. And this is. Well, I think the title gives people an idea that it's going to require a little something on the part of the reader themselves. Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep. That covers a lot of ground there. And it could be anything. But I associate you as a. Generally, as a horror writer, I considered it more science fiction than I did anything else. And yet it's science fiction that could be very soon in the offing.
- [05:45]
Kate Gibson
I was about to say, I think it's optimistic to call it science fiction.
- [05:48]
Charlie Gibson
Well, people. People are working on this right now. Where did I go? I went on AI And I asked, AI, is anybody working on stimulating the brain of people who are in vegetative states so that they can operate as your character does? And it said, yeah, people are working on it. They're working on it right now. So did you feel you need to had to get this book out before it became reality?
- [06:12]
Paul Tremblay
Oh, yeah. Even though. Even though I feel like the initial what if? Which was a man in a vegetative state, basically brain dead, being remote controlled. Like when I first had that what if? I was like, oh, that's really silly. Put it away for a few years. But once I started writing the book, I was like, I really need to finish this and have it published before. Before it can be true. I don't know. I just flashed on the weird image of being on a plane as a way to transport a body and someone's controlling it. And again, I was like, oh, that's silly. But fast forward a few years. Suddenly that what if occurred to me and it was like, oh, I don't think it's that Silly at all. These companies would totally do this without a second thought to, you know, morality or. Or ethics, you know, as long as they could use it to make money.
- [06:54]
Charlie Gibson
Well, this revolves around a company that is able, in some way, to take control of the body of someone who is almost dead or basically in a vegetative state. And Julia is hired to accompany him on an experimental trip. Tell me about how that idea came to fruition and what you want to say with it.
- [07:18]
Paul Tremblay
Yeah, I mean, so I mentioned once I had the conceit, pretty quickly I realized, you know, that the book was gonna be about two. The mystery of two characters to me. One was Julia, who's the person that's controlling. We'll call him Bernie for now, you know, who's remote controlling. But I also really wanted to explore, you know, the man or Bernie's experience, what it would be like to have your mind, like, be hijacked or colonized, you know, in a way that's, like, difficult to recognize, certainly at first. So that. That was really what drove me, you know, to want to write the book. And also, it was a challenge because, as you mentioned, Charlie, like, you know, I. I haven't done a lot of science fiction, and, you know, I also wanted it to be really funny. Like, I hope, you know, I know we'll talk about heavy topics, but I really hope that the Julia chapters, which are probably, you know, like, 60% of the book or so, you know, I really hope a lot of those are really satirically funny.
- [08:06]
Charlie Gibson
But one of the things that struck me in the book is that while Bernie is basically close to death and in a vegetative state when the book starts, as Julia becomes more in control of his body, he becomes more sentient as time goes on. He becomes close to being able to think, if not move, without this outside aid. And I'm not sure what the question here is, except how did you decide to take Bernie from this vegetative state to a time where he couldn't speak and he couldn't move on his own, but he could think.
- [08:45]
Paul Tremblay
Yeah, I mean, for me, it was. It's just a little bit of a logical outgrowth of, like, you know, to me, it's a science fiction horror story because it's, you know, the science gone wrong. Like, he's not supposed to, you know, according to the. You know, to the company. Oh, no. Like, he's. You know, he's. They never really say brain dead. He's vegetative. He's unconscious. So, like, the more that Julia controls that controls him that's training more the AI that's sort of in Bernie's brain. So, yeah, there ends up becoming like. I don't want to say improvements, because I don't know if it's an improvement because Bernie's not having a good time for sure, you know, as this is happening to him. So, yeah, I wanted that to sort of model, you know, sort of what's happening now.
- [09:24]
Kate Gibson
There's so many ways to talk about AI and AI getting out of control and our lack of regulation of AI and all of the ethical questions that it brings up. My father and I were having that debate about Bernie earlier because he said, if Bernie's in a vegetative state, we got to the debate of how ethical is this really? And I said, but there's no proof that Bernie opted in. And as the operator, you have no proof that you have permission to operate his body.
- [09:49]
Charlie Gibson
It occurred to me that what's your envisioning of people being able to stimulate the brains of people in a vegetative state? That you raise the possibility that it could be used for ill in this book, but couldn't it also be used for good?
- [10:05]
Paul Tremblay
Sure, yeah. But, you know, I don't think it's a huge spoiler that in the book that the company chooses, they don't choose that path. Right. I mean, that's the, you know, the. The insidious part of it is it's, you know, the motive isn't for good. The motive is to make as much money as possible. You know, and like, yeah, I even mentioned earlier, like, hey, you know, it'd be great for AI to be in the medical field because it could recognize maybe the symptoms first. But how is it currently being used? It's currently being used by health insurance places to deny claims. I mean, so. I mean, so that continues to be. The fear is just the un. As you mentioned, Kate, before, like, the unregulation, like, wild, wild west, smash and grab of it all.
- [10:44]
Charlie Gibson
How did you go about researching this?
- [10:47]
Paul Tremblay
I'm terrible at research, Charlie. I must admit. For me, the biggest research that I did enjoy was. And not the science part of it, but I really wanted to, like, think more about what is consciousness? How is it. How is it defined? Like, because we don't know. Like, there is no universally accepted definition of consciousness. So I read this. This book called the Feeling of Life Itself by Christopher Koch, and it was really this interesting book. It was very warm and like, and a conversational voice, but it explored, hey, what is consciousness? And the definition that Christopher came To or worked on, or I should say worked by, was that consciousness is tied to. Are you able to directly experience the environment, the universe? And that's how he defines what's conscious. But he kind of proved that, like, a. A computer would never be able to directly experience the universe, therefore, or therefore it won't be conscious, which actually oddly made me feel good. And he also sort of mathematically proved that you would never be able to upload your consciousness into a computer.
- [11:48]
Kate Gibson
I watched something with you talking about the fact that you didn't carefully plot this book. And I have to say, I know you're not a careful plotter in general, but that with this book, because you got a lot of balls in the air with the book. You've got multiple perspectives, different plot lines, a ton of characters, a bunch of ethical issues. You're confusing. What was the process of writing this book like for you?
- [12:09]
Paul Tremblay
Yeah, I mean, there was definitely some research as we go, but I feel like my approach, at least, you know, for the early Julia chapters, I wanted that to feel almost like quotidian, as real as possible without getting into the science part. But what was real as possible was Julia's experience. Like, she'd have to train and it would be hard. Like, getting him into a car is a hard thing to do. So that was the part I wanted to make it feel like this is almost mundane in certain parts. You know, it's almost like drudgery, what she has to do, you know. And then I could get really wild with Bernie's, you know, what's happening in his brain in his chapters. So, yeah, I mean, there was some research along the way. I mean, that's the advantage of being a 21st century writer is while you're writing, if something comes up, then I can search on the Internet for it. And, you know, I avoided using AI as much as I could. But the other thing that ended up happening is my first full draft ended up being like 30,000 words longer than what you see because I didn't plot it first. Like, I had to cut and trim and do stuff like that.
- [13:06]
Charlie Gibson
You do something that I have. I don't think I've ever seen it in a book before. You stop and say, we're going to take a little break here. This is going to be an interlude, and I'm going to talk to you, the reader, and I want you to know certain things.
- [13:21]
Kate Gibson
A couple times in this book, Paul actually puts, like, his story aside and speaks directly to his readers in sort of a break. The fourth wall monologue this is an aspect of the book that's somewhat difficult to describe. So we asked him to read a passage which will explain it best. And then in this passage, he tells us readers that AI should stop ripping off writers and copying the style of their novels.
- [13:42]
Paul Tremblay
Writing a novel is difficult. That isn't to say it's more difficult than other endeavors that require anywhere from six months to two years on average to complete. That average refers to human written work that did not rely on or employ the idea algorithms and bots that you use to write insipid emails and to complete other tasks shortsightedly greasing the skids for your eventual replacement within the workforce. This shouldn't be a controversial statement, but writing requires experience. Not writing experience, though that of course helps, but the living, existing, everyday kind of experience. Writing is not computation and it is not pattern recognition, as some narcissistic dolts claim. Otherwise more mathematicians would be writing books. And who the hell wants that? Nobody. So sorry, but not everyone has a book in them any more than everyone has a house they can frame, wire and roof in them.
- [14:36]
Charlie Gibson
So now back to our conversation with Paul about his new novel, Dead but Dreaming of Electric Sheep.
- [14:42]
Paul Tremblay
So at the point where the first interlude happens, when I was initially writing, like, the interlude sort of jokingly says, like, instead of doing all this character stuff, I sort of did, and I knew it was like way too long and it slowed things down and it wasn't necessary for the reader. And I don't know, I wish I could remember exactly when I hit upon the interlude, but I think it was more. I think at that point I finally sort of knew a little bit more about what was going to happen at the end. So without getting, like, too crazy spoilery, like, you know, when you read the first interlude, it's funny a little bit, and it sort of asks, I think, a little bit of a chilling question at the end of the interlude and by the time you get to the end, you know, I think you really understand the point of the interludes or what that is. You know what that means when you're reading sort of the last pages. Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know how spoilery you all get on this.
- [15:27]
Kate Gibson
I don't want to get too spoilery, but I found myself as I got towards the end of the book asking if these interludes were, in a sense, Paul's poison pillow.
- [15:36]
Paul Tremblay
The poison pill is in there elsewhere. I mean, the interludes are at least complete sentences, but there are sections where there's like, some of Bernie's thoughts overlaid over like, jumbled up text. So if it were to scrape the jumbled up text, that would be. That would be more. More the thing. And then there's a reason as to why when you read the book, it'll be obvious why there's some jumbled up text with the overlaid text.
- [15:56]
Charlie Gibson
But you're trying. As I read it, I kept thinking, he's trying to foil AI here.
- [16:02]
Paul Tremblay
Yeah, for sure.
- [16:03]
Kate Gibson
I have the same thought.
- [16:04]
Paul Tremblay
Yeah. No, I, you know, I have to admit it's kind of weird, like for most, if not all my career, I think, you know, one of the things I've always tried to do is, you know, the story idea that I have. I want to make sure I'm not just writing like a treatment for a screenplay. Like I'm trying to make whatever story I have have its best form. Be the book to. To the my best of my ability. And I'd be lying if I didn't say now, like, I think about that, but I also think about how am I going to write something that AI wouldn't produce. I mean, some of that is every writer's ego is like, oh, it'll never be able to reproduce what I do. But I'd be lying if I wasn't thinking about that.
- [16:36]
Kate Gibson
I wanted to ask you sort of about the aesthetics of the way that thought is presented and what sort of thought you as a writer had to put. I mean, I want to ask a little bit about the you chapter because I want to ask about the aesthetics first.
- [16:48]
Paul Tremblay
So with Fernie's chapters, I mean, here's someone who was, I mean, in a vegetative state. You know, part of his brain had died because of the stroke, but he's been sort of another character jokes about it being like jumper cables, which is. But you know, his brain's been turned on in, in some sort of way. So I really wanted to replicate how strange that would be because he's unable to move and someone's moving him. You know, I just figured what, what would be happening in his brain would be really strange and bizarre. And I, I just wanted to. To have a way, one to make. Try to bring the reader as close to that as possible, like how strange that would feel. And that got. Ended up being represented in sometimes as, as you mentioned, like the text that's floating around and, and things like that. And eventually I also wanted like a visual way to have to differentiate between when the AI is sort of talking to Bernie and when he's talking. I just didn't want to have, like, quotation marks. So I wanted it to fit in with just the overall strangeness of his experience of having, you know, this hacked or even, like, colonized mind.
- [17:46]
Kate Gibson
But there's an art to it, isn't it? I mean, I would think there would be an art of writing. Cause you want the reader to be disoriented but not lost.
- [17:54]
Paul Tremblay
Sure.
- [17:55]
Kate Gibson
And that must be hard.
- [17:57]
Paul Tremblay
The hope is, I feel like if I can follow, I hope other people can follow. And how the book is read is, I did it in Microsoft Word that way. Not to make it an ad for Word, but, like, you know, you know, the publishing company. I mean, just having to do the book the way they did it was a lot of extra work for them. But, like, I did it myself first and just said, hey, can you guys replicate this? And I promised them to never use text boxes again because they really. They don't play well with PDFs, and they certainly don't play well with ebooks either. But they did it. They managed to replicate an ebook, too, which is really cool.
- [18:27]
Charlie Gibson
One of the things that bemused me about, specifically the first interlude, was you said, I've spent a lot of pages here writing about how Julia gets comfortable with operating. Bernie and I could have written a lot more, but I didn't. And I thought, I think he's just making an excuse for himself for cutting out a few pages, and he's writing that sort of for himself. I had to cut those pages. I sort of would have liked to have had them in the book, but maybe I've gone on a little too long on this point. So I'm going to give myself a little relief.
- [19:00]
Paul Tremblay
No, for sure. I mean, it was a little bit of a poke at myself. And some of the realities and frustrations. Look, like everybody else, my brain is affected by social media, like, attention spans and stuff like that. I don't know. Like, I feel. It's funny. Like, the whole AI thing that's been happening is. I would rather it hadn't happened, but it's helped sort of crystallize and remind me, like, why I love reading and. And especially now, like, reading is like giving yourself permission to slow down. Like, what other. What other thing in your life does that. Like, to sit with a book and not just try to blast through it, like a speed read, and, like, keep it, you know, and saying, oh, I read 200 books this year. Like, how much time did you spend with those? No, no. Part of that was just, like, me just thinking and talking a little bit about it. Like, hey, you know, a book is different than any other art form. Just like the other art forms are different than books. But you know, one of the reasons why people love books is because you do get to and even like for not even the escape part of it, it just allows you to sit with your brain for a while. And I think we all need more of that in our lives.
- [19:58]
Charlie Gibson
Anyway, the book is dead but Dreaming of Electric Sheep. I love the title.
- [20:02]
Kate Gibson
I do too.
- [20:03]
Paul Tremblay
Thank you.
- [20:03]
Charlie Gibson
It will mystify people as they begin the book, but it gives them a really interesting puzzle to try to solve, I think as they go on.
- [20:11]
Kate Gibson
And so we asked Paul some rapid
- [20:13]
Charlie Gibson
fire questions and we'll have those in a moment. As well as a bookstore, this one in Wichita, Kansas.
- [20:25]
Paul Tremblay
Awkward time to ask this, but hey, did you download the trail map?
- [20:29]
Charlie Gibson
Yeah, no, I don't need to.
- [20:30]
Paul Tremblay
I don't understand.
- [20:31]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
You're trusting your signal out here?
- [20:33]
Charlie Gibson
I'm trusting T Mobile. They have the best network. And if we end up in bumtots nowhere, well, we've got T Satellite for backup. Whoa.
- [20:39]
Paul Tremblay
I don't trust my carrier that much.
- [20:42]
Kate Gibson
What?
- [20:42]
Charlie Gibson
Just use your phone as a flashlight.
- [20:45]
Podcast Host/Interviewer
With America's best network and T Satellite, we're keeping you connected in places you never thought possible. And if you switch today, you get free phones for zero down and only 25 bucks a month per line for four lines. Find out more@t mobile.com or visit your local store. Best Mobile Network Based on analysis by Ooklo speed test intelligence data 2H 2025 with 24 monthly bill credits and 4 eligible port ins on essentials for well qualified customers with autopay plus taxes, fees and $35 connection charge per line Credits and imbalance to if you pay off earlier. Cancel Contact Us Finance Agreement example 299.99 Moto Edge 5G required T Satellite available with compatible device in most outdoor areas in the US where you can see the sky. Included with experience beyond or $10 a month. However, news monthly cancel anytime visit t mobile.com.
- [21:31]
Kate Gibson
Rapid Fire Questions for Paul Tremblay what do you use as a bookmark?
- [21:35]
Paul Tremblay
Nothing consistent. Like I'll get excited if I have a bookmark and then it's gone instantly. So I have letters from other publishers. I use sort of any piece of paper that's around.
- [21:44]
Charlie Gibson
Do you take notes in the margins?
- [21:46]
Paul Tremblay
No. I'll sometimes dog ear pages or underline passages I really love, but I don't take notes.
- [21:53]
Charlie Gibson
What would surprise me? That's on your writing desk.
- [21:55]
Paul Tremblay
What Would surprise you.
- [21:57]
Kate Gibson
That's.
- [21:57]
Paul Tremblay
I mean, I think, Hmm, I don't know. Well, maybe a Larry Bird Funko Pop. Like, in my. In another. In another life, I think I could have very happily have been a sports writer or a sports radio talk show host. That's. That's how I shut my brain off. Like, in a good way. Like, because reading and watching things, my writer brain is still working. You know, sports is. Helps me. That's my escape is sports.
- [22:23]
Charlie Gibson
It's a Larry Birdhead.
- [22:25]
Paul Tremblay
A Larry Bird. It's Funko Pop is the type of toy company, you know, just a thing with big head.
- [22:30]
Kate Gibson
They have these weird square heads with the big eyes.
- [22:32]
Charlie Gibson
And how does that help you write?
- [22:34]
Paul Tremblay
It doesn't. I. I just have a lot of, like, my favorite things that I think are cool around me because honestly, everything I write, when I. Whenever I start writing, it's always from a place of being a fan. Like, I want to write, like, oh, I love Philip K. Dick's novels. I love, you know, the Coen Brothers. I mean, every. Everything I write starts from a place of. Oh, I want to just get kind of next to something I think is cool. So I'm sort of surrounded by the things I think are cool.
- [22:59]
Kate Gibson
That's a really good answer. Because if it had been, well, Larry talks to me, Charlie, and tells me my books, and we have long conversations, that would have been really terrifying. What's your writing environment like? Do you listen to music? Do you. Is it utter silence? Do you read aloud?
- [23:14]
Paul Tremblay
I prefer silence, but if there's noise, I'll put on music. But it has to be no lyrics. It has to be instrumental. So I typically listen to a lot of soundtracks if I. If I need to close, you know, I don't read aloud until I'm at the end and everything's done. And then. Then I'll read it aloud.
- [23:29]
Kate Gibson
Oh, I gotta know. What score do you listen to when you write?
- [23:31]
Paul Tremblay
Oh, it can change. And I almost do it, like, book by book. I think with this book, I did a lot of Nine Inch Nails put out a whole bunch of, like, they call them the ghost records. So there's a whole. Just a bunch of instrumentals?
- [23:43]
Kate Gibson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [23:45]
Paul Tremblay
I mean, you wouldn't be surprised to hear, like, I listen to a lot of horror movie soundtracks, too.
- [23:49]
Charlie Gibson
Is there a book that you wish you'd written?
- [23:52]
Paul Tremblay
Oh, there's so many, but I'm usually not. Like, the ones I love is like, I could never write that. And that makes me super excited. Well, I don't know. How you feel about this admission, but my main midlife crisis now is getting tattoos. And weirdly, it's my daughter's fault because I took her to get her first one and I got one. So I have three book tattoos. One of them is Roberto Balano's 2666. Another is Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five and Mariana Enriquez's Our Share of Night, which is one of my favorite novels of this century. So I would call all three of those books. I wish I could write. Write those, but I would never be able to
- [24:31]
Charlie Gibson
somebody saying to themselves, I wish I could write a novel that would get on Paul Tremblay's arm.
- [24:37]
Paul Tremblay
Yeah, that'd be heart Stewart,
- [24:43]
Kate Gibson
the great Paul Tremblay was so amazing to talk to him. I love talking to Paul Tremblay. He's. He's a master of many, many, many things. And it's really interesting to me that he went from horror, which, again, I love his horror, to something that I think is a really interesting and groundbreaking work of science fiction that. I don't know. I feel like I've read a lot about AI and this felt very different to me.
- [25:04]
Charlie Gibson
He's a very smart guy, and it reflects that in this book.
- [25:07]
Kate Gibson
Yeah.
- [25:07]
Charlie Gibson
Again, it's dead, but Dreaming of Electric Sheep. We have a bookstore for you this week. It's in Wichita, Kansas, and it is just opened. Final Draft is the name of it. And a young couple, Natalie and Josh Macy, have opened this bookstore in the Delano section of Wichita. They've just had a soft opening as we post this podcast. They've got a hard opening. I'm sort of interested in what the difference between those two are, but anyway, we'll find out. And it's a young couple that you're really rooting for to make this bookstore a success here. They are, Josh Macy and his wife Natalie. Natalie, Josh, good to have you with us on the bookcase. This is a whole new venture for you. Tell me where you are in the
- [25:52]
Kate Gibson
process and why you were crazy enough to do it.
- [25:54]
Charlie Gibson
Right?
- [25:54]
Natalie Macy
Yeah, we were crazy because we were naive. But we're on day five of our soft opening, and it's just a dream that I've had and a husband who was willing to accept it. And so that's where we are.
- [26:10]
Josh Macy
We're.
- [26:10]
Natalie Macy
We're in the middle of opening.
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Charlie Gibson
Tell me what a soft opening and a hard opening is.
- [26:16]
Natalie Macy
So my idea was that for two weeks, we would market just on Instagram and Facebook and have two weeks of slower hours, days off, and it would give us the ability to work as a team and figure out our strengths and weaknesses and then also in order to restock our bookshelves. And so our. Our plan was two weeks of soft opening and then a grand opening. But we're on day five, and it's just been madness. Like, Wichita's been super excited. I love Wichita. Like, I wanted to start this store in Wichita because it's the place that raised me.
- [27:01]
Charlie Gibson
So that sounds to me like you're getting a lot of business in the soft opening phase. Is that right, Josh?
- [27:07]
Josh Macy
A lot more than we expected. You wouldn't believe the amount of gallons of milk I've had to go buy.
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Kate Gibson
Wait a minute. Why are you buying gallons of milk? I just want to clarify that.
- [27:16]
Josh Macy
Yeah, yeah. Maybe to rewind a little bit. The name of the bookstore is Final Draft Books, and the concept is the bookstore and equal parts coffee shop and, like, cocktail bar. And so all of the coffee and lattes that we make require a lot of milk.
- [27:31]
Kate Gibson
Okay.
- [27:32]
Josh Macy
A lot of milk. More than you would imagine.
- [27:35]
Natalie Macy
I've wanted to own a bookstore for so long. I really, in my mind, I thought we would just have this cute little shop. So we were naive, but no complaints. Like, I love it. It's really.
- [27:47]
Josh Macy
They're good problems to have.
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Kate Gibson
So she's had this dream. So, Josh, when you guys got married, was that part of the vows? To love, honor, cherish, and own a mutual bookstore? Someday, I promise.
- [27:59]
Josh Macy
It probably was in the footnotes. I should have read them.
- [28:04]
Natalie Macy
He did. When I sat down with him, it's been almost a year, and I asked him, like, do you think we could do this? Do you want to do this? And he said no. And so we joke that, like, it didn't take him much convincing. I mean, he's been so incredibly supportive.
- [28:21]
Kate Gibson
What do you hope to learn from a soft opening? Like, are you trying to figure out what's selling really well in your community? Are you trying to bank conversations for later? Like, what are some of your strategic goals when you do a soft opening?
- [28:34]
Natalie Macy
Yeah, I think I had all of those. How many of one title will sell? How many titles do we need to stock? What are the genres that we need to stock? Do people really gravitate towards local authors? And then on the coffee side, it's like, what coffee drinks sell? What are people looking for? How is our team navigating things? We have seven team members, and they're incredible. And they have learned how to make coffee and cocktails in two weeks.
- [29:06]
Charlie Gibson
How did you get the word out that a soft opening be a hard opening to come. How have you made the community aware that you exist?
- [29:16]
Natalie Macy
Social media, Instagram and Facebook. Word of mouth. Wichita has some like local influencers who really like kind of took our message and ran with it.
- [29:29]
Kate Gibson
So it really helps then Josh, that you're visiting all the dairy farms in Kansas to get all of the milk. Is that just how.
- [29:38]
Josh Macy
Yeah, every spread, every grocery store in a five mile radius knows me by my on a first name basis shout
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Natalie Macy
out to our local bronze.
- [29:47]
Kate Gibson
I gotta ask your cocktail menu. This one was telling me some of the names of the cocktails last night. You gotta be telling our listeners about that and how you came up with your cocktail menu.
- [29:58]
Natalie Macy
Some of the more obvious ones are. Are you there, God? It's me. Margarita. Of course. Off of Beauty Bloom's book.
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Josh Macy
Orient Murder on the Orient Express. Espresso Martini.
- [30:10]
Natalie Macy
We can't even say them.
- [30:12]
Kate Gibson
Murderer. Espresso martini. Nice.
- [30:16]
Charlie Gibson
Okay, and what do you plan to do for the, for the grand opening?
- [30:21]
Josh Macy
The grand opening is only to be next Friday at 2:00pm Right?
- [30:24]
Natalie Macy
Yeah.
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Josh Macy
So we're going to like doing like an evening, like an afternoon evening grand opening and then like starting that next day we'll like be full, full hours from there now, but we'll have the
- [30:34]
Natalie Macy
community involved business next door. That's Sailors tattoo shop. They're going to do little tattoos and then there's a business on the other side of us called Grit. And so they have some stuff that they're going to set out for the opening and then the community we're in is called Delano. So the association and people of Delano will all gather for a ceremony.
- [31:00]
Kate Gibson
Oh great.
- [31:01]
Charlie Gibson
Very nice. Do you want a distinct reputation in effect for what you carry or are you just going to be a general neighborhood bookstore?
- [31:10]
Josh Macy
I have my perception. I wonder how closely it matches yours.
- [31:13]
Natalie Macy
It's probably a little different.
- [31:15]
Kate Gibson
You guys haven't discussed this.
- [31:18]
Josh Macy
I think, okay, maybe I give you like my, my, my three words or something and you give your three words. I think it's community, consistency and quality. That's what I'm after. What about you?
- [31:28]
Natalie Macy
Yeah, I think definitely community. And as far as our books go, like we really have a pret. Selection or genres, so there's not something we're specifically focused on. But we do have one huge custom bookshelf that hosts all of our classics, which I love. That was kind of my vision going into it was that all of the books, you know, you would walk into the bookstore, there's alcoves of different genres. And then when you walk to the back, you're just hit by this 10 foot bookcase with all of our classics. So I think that on the book side, that's my answer. And then we really wanted to source as much locally as we could. So our coffee, our pastries, our stickers, our journals, our pens, tote bags. Like, everything comes from people in Wichita and in Lawrence, Kansas as well.
- [32:20]
Charlie Gibson
Terrific. Well, we wish you well. We hope things go well.
- [32:23]
Kate Gibson
You sound like you're already in love with this space, which I love when you talk about. You have this dreamy quality. It's like alcove over here and alcove over there. An awesome bookshelf in the. And so way to go, you guys. I hope this opening is just everything you dreamed of. I really enjoyed talking to the two of them. It's an interview I wish you guys at home could see. Just because, I mean, yeah, they were worried. Yeah, they were a little frantic. Yeah, they were a couple of days away from opening. But when they described the space, when they talked about what they wanted, when they talked about their opening night, they get this dreamy, like, you know, their excitement.
- [33:01]
Charlie Gibson
Their excitement was infectious.
- [33:03]
Kate Gibson
It was lovely. It was lovely.
- [33:04]
Charlie Gibson
The bookstore is Final Draft Bookstore in Wichita, Kansas.
- [33:08]
Kate Gibson
And if you're around this weekend, go. They're opening.
- [33:11]
Charlie Gibson
Yeah.
- [33:12]
Kate Gibson
And give them a high five.
- [33:13]
Natalie Macy
Yep.
- [33:14]
Charlie Gibson
We'll bring you up to date on who keeps this podcast going. And then a final word from Paul Tremblay.
- [33:19]
Kate Gibson
The book Case with Kate and Charlie Gibson is a production of ABC Audio and Good Morning America. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions. Our executive producer is Simone Swink. We want to make mention of Amanda McMaster, Sabrina Kohlberg, Arielle Chester at Good Morning America, and Josh Cohan from ABC Audio. Follow the bookcase wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to listen, rate and review. If you'd like to find any of the books mentioned in this episode, we have them linked in the episode description.
- [33:48]
Paul Tremblay
I hope the book makes people mad. I hope it makes them laugh. I hope it makes them a little terrified. And I promise it's entertaining and it all fits together in the end and everyone's happy.