Susan Rieger and Surviving Your Mother

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Book Case – Susan Rieger and Surviving Your Mother

Release Date: December 19, 2024

In this heartfelt episode of "The Book Case," hosts Charlie and Kate Gibson delve deep into the complexities of mother-daughter relationships through an engaging conversation with acclaimed author Susan Rieger about her latest work, "Like Mother, Like Mother." Additionally, the episode features an inspiring segment on Warwick Books, a historic independent bookstore in La Jolla, California, emphasizing the enduring power of community and legacy in the literary world.

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Introduction: Setting the Festive Tone

Charlie Gibson kicks off the episode with warm holiday greetings, acknowledging the bustling season and expressing gratitude to listeners amidst the Christmas rush ([00:33]-[01:05]). Kate Gibson echoes these sentiments, highlighting the importance of taking a moment to enjoy the literary journey despite the holiday chaos ([00:47]-[01:05]).

Exploring "Like Mother, Like Mother" with Susan Rieger

Initial Impressions and Book Overview

Charlie introduces Susan Rieger and her compelling book, "Like Mother, Like Mother," emphasizing its profound exploration of mother-child relationships, particularly focusing on mothers and daughters ([01:05]-[02:45]). He remarks, "It is a book that really gets you thinking about your own family and your own relationships to your parents" ([02:45]).

Kate shares her personal reflections, noting how the book lingered in her thoughts long after she finished reading. She discusses the book’s engagement with the nature versus nurture debate and its ability to prompt introspection about one's own familial relationships ([02:45]-[04:03]). Kate muses, "Do you become your mother? Do you become the opposite of your mother? How does your mother shape you?"

Delving into Themes and Characters

The conversation deepens as Susan Rieger elaborates on the book's title and its significance. She explains, "I chose it because it happens towards the end... you are your mother's daughter, and so you are like your mother" ([05:15]-[05:39]). This dual use of the phrase "Like mother, like mother" underscores the intergenerational similarities and influences depicted in the narrative.

Kate probes further, inquiring whether the title was envisioned from the outset or evolved during the writing process. Susan reveals that the title emerged organically from the story’s development, highlighting the fluid nature of her creative process ([05:39]-[06:20]).

Themes of Inevitable Relationships and Personal Reflections

Charlie and Kate discuss the book’s central themes, including the inevitability of familial relationships and the shaping influence of mothers. Susan emphasizes how traits, behaviors, and philosophies are passed down through generations, stating, "The central theme... is how we pass things down... the way we look, think, act" ([06:55]-[07:14]).

Susan shares a poignant reflection on personal loss and the concept of moving forward, encapsulating the emotional depth of the book: "You never... breathe your parents twice... to move forward, you have to change or continue to blame them." ([07:14]-[07:44]).

Character Relationships and Personal Experiences

The dialogue shifts to the multiple mother-daughter relationships portrayed in the book. Charlie notes the complexity of tracking characters across three generations and praises Susan for crafting distinct voices that make each relationship memorable ([09:57]-[11:08]). Susan discusses her own challenging relationship with her mother, revealing vulnerabilities and the profound impact of parental relationships on personal growth: "My mother took the first and the last, and I think his attention to me made me as successful as I was going to be." ([11:08]-[11:50]).

Charlie reflects on the universal significance of maternal relationships, quoting Richard Nixon’s sentiment about his mother being a saint and emphasizing the deep, often unparalleled influence mothers hold in individuals' lives ([10:43]-[11:08]).

Writing Process and Storytelling Techniques

Kate inquires about Susan’s writing methodology, particularly how she plots her novels. Susan explains her character-driven approach, allowing the narrative to unfold organically based on character development rather than strict plotting: "I start with a character and I go where the character takes me." ([16:10]-[17:18]). She highlights the importance of letting her subconscious guide the story, ensuring authenticity and emotional resonance ([17:31]-[19:51]).

Rapid-Fire Questions: Personal Touches

In a lively rapid-fire segment, Susan answers various personal questions:

• Favorite Writer Quotes: "One person found a quote that I didn't. It was about craziness in the family." ([21:23]-[21:38])
• Current Reading Recommendation: "It was pretty well known... 'Netherlands' by Joseph O'Neill." ([22:15]-[22:38])
• Best Compliment from a Reader: "When my granddaughter said she was obsessed with the book, I almost wept." ([24:10]-[24:38])
• Coda: "Tell all the truth, but Tell it slant, which is a line from Emily Dickinson." ([39:00])

These responses offer listeners a glimpse into Susan’s personal literary influences and the emotional connections her work fosters.

Feature Segment: Saving Warwick Books – A Community Triumph

Transitioning from author insights, Charlie and Kate highlight Warwick Books, a historic independent bookstore in La Jolla, California. Owned by Nancy Warwick, now in her fourth generation of ownership, the store dates back to 1896 and stands as a testament to family legacy and community support ([26:41]-[27:13]).

Historical Legacy and Family Business

Nancy recounts the store’s origins, emphasizing the seamless transition across generations and the familial harmony that has sustained Warwick Books: "My parents really enjoyed working together... it was always kind of a close relationship with the staff and with the customer base." ([27:13]-[28:41]). This enduring dedication has made the store a beloved fixture in the community.

Facing and Overcoming Challenges

The conversation shifts to a critical moment when the store faced potential closure due to a challenging lease situation. Nancy and Julie Slavinsky, the store’s events director, narrate how the community rallied to save Warwick Books. With strategic negotiations and heartfelt support, 34 individuals and couples stepped in to ensure the store’s survival ([30:10]-[32:36]). Julie emphasizes the importance of community-driven events in fostering loyalty: "There's a connection that I play in making and matching those people up that I think is as important, if not more important." ([33:05]-[34:10]).

Enduring Community Spirit

Nancy and Julie highlight the store's role as a "happy place" for many, where generations have found solace, inspiration, and a sense of belonging. Their collective efforts underscore the vital role independent bookstores play in nurturing literary communities and preserving cultural heritage ([29:43]-[34:10]).

Conclusion: Celebrating Literary Bonds and Community

As the episode wraps up, Charlie and Kate reaffirm the profound impact of Susan Rieger’s "Like Mother, Like Mother" and the inspiring resilience of Warwick Books. They encourage listeners to engage deeply with their own familial relationships and support independent bookstores that enrich the literary landscape.

Kate muses, "Books are not dead. It gives me hope," encapsulating the episode's optimistic outlook on literature and community ([35:48]-[35:50]).

Charlie adds, "The best compliment I ever received from a reader..." celebrating the meaningful connections between authors and their audience ([24:17]-[24:21]).

Finally, Susan Rieger’s coda leaves listeners with a thoughtful reflection on storytelling: "Tell all the truth, but Tell it slant, which is a line from Emily Dickinson." ([39:00])

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Notable Quotes:

• Charlie Gibson ([01:39]): "This book got me thinking about that."
• Susan Rieger ([05:15]): "I'm like my mother in many ways."
• Kate Gibson ([12:56]): "Tell all the truth, but Tell it slant."
• Susan Rieger ([24:21]): "When my granddaughter said she was obsessed with the book, I almost wept."
• Susan Rieger ([39:00]): "Tell all the truth, but Tell it slant, which is a line from Emily Dickinson."

This episode of "The Book Case" masterfully intertwines personal narratives with broader community stories, offering listeners both literary inspiration and a testament to the enduring power of books and shared human experiences.

Transcript

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[Charlie Gibson]

Oh, hi there bookcasers. I know there is high anticipation for Christmas. The fingers are tingling, the toes are turning. I'm Charlie Gibson from the bookcase with Kate and Charlie and it's good to see you. Merry Christmas. Maybe we'd be one of the first.

[Kate]

To wish you so Merry Christmas to you. I am the Kate part of the Kate and Charlie part and I know we've also caught you. It's six days before Christmas, so many of you are running around in very hectic, last minute etc. Etc. Wrapping, shopping, et cetera. So we are very thankful to have you here and listening to us.

[Charlie Gibson]

Yeah, give us a little time. I think you'll enjoy the next half hour. Going to be talking to Susan Rieger. She has written a book called Like Mother, Like Mother, little turn on the phrase. But you will certainly understand the applicability of the title when you read the book. She really explores the mother child relationships, but particularly mothers and daughters. It is a. It's a book that really gets you thinking about your own family and your own relationships to your parents. There's a lot of books that do that, but this one does it very well.

[Kate]

Yeah, and I think, you know, it's funny, we're late to the party. This has been out for a little while, but when I put it down, it really stays with me. I thought about the themes long after, you know, I finished the last chapter. And to me it's about the inevitability of the relationship you have with your mother. Do you become your mother? Do you become the opposite of your mother? How does your mother shape you? But I also think it's about. About there's a touch of the nature versus nurture debate in this book. I think there is a mother daughter relationship where a mother is circumstantially forced to give their children up. And yet the similarities between those children and their mother are very tangible. And so I wonder if Susan is saying, and again, this is one of the things that stays with me. My mother was very, very, very much involved in my life. Would I resemble my mother so much now at 48 years old. If she hadn't spent so much, if she hadn't been a shaper of my education, if she'd been forced to give me up, would I still be as Arlene Gibson as I am? I don't have a great answer for that. And I don't know what your experience was, but this book got me thinking about that.

[Charlie Gibson]

Well, you'll get to thinking about that. That's what the book excites. There's one small measure that I would bring up, and I don't mean to pick a nit with Susan, but there are a number of child mother relationships in this book, a lot of them. And as you mentioned, you're 48, which would mean by definition, I'm older. I won't get into how much older, but I'm older. And it would have helped me if I had kept a little family tree chart of the book as I read it, because on occasion, I would get uncertain as to which relationship we're talking about. But the critical part that you need to remember, there's three generations. That's the basic part of the book. Zelda is the oldest. Her daughter is Lila, and her daughter is Grace. Grandmother is Elda, daughters Lila and granddaughter Grace. And if you, if you keep those three straight, you're, you're, you're fine. And you won't have any trouble doing it because one of the sections of the book is Lila's section, then Grace's section, then Zelda's section. But it really does get you thinking about, about your mom. And this is a great book for book clubs because book club discussions get really interesting and can get very personal. And I would recommend it to any book club because it really, it's really a very thoughtful book in that regard and a good story. It really does read very well.

[Susan Rieger]

Yeah.

[Kate]

And I'm gonna take issue just a little bit with what you said. Yes, there are a lot of characters in this book, and yes, you are north of 48, but that's not what I'm taking issue with. I think that she does a great job of creating distinct voices in this book so that, you know, you don't have too much trouble paying attention to which character is which. Plus, I think that you need a bevy of relationships between mothers and daughters for this book to get a complete prism of mother daughter relationships. And I think she does an amazing job of examining that relationship, you know, almost at a 360 degree angle.

[Charlie Gibson]

Yeah, it's a, it's a wonderful book. Like mother, like mother and here's our conversation with Susan Rieger. Susan Rieger, it is a pleasure to have you in the bookcase. Kate and I are delighted that you've taken the time to talk to us. The book Like Mother, Like Mother. And I want to start there because the common phrase is like mother, like daughter. And indeed, even you have one of your characters at one point think, like mother, like mother. So why did you turn that phrase, and why does it fit so well with what you've written?

[Susan Rieger]

I chose it because it happens towards the end. And there are two generations of mothers, and they're looking at each other and they're thinking, this mother is like your mother. And so they just said, like mother, like mother. And you are your mother's daughter, and so you are like your mother. So I thought it worked as a title. I'm like my mother in many ways.

[Kate]

I'm interested, too, in when that became the title. Was that the title from the outset? Did you know at some point some character had to bring that up? When you wrote Grace's Thought, Like Mother, Like Mother, we were like, yes, that's the title.

[Susan Rieger]

No, I didn't. I wanted to call it Mother Hoodlum. And I was told I couldn't do that. So we went weeks without a title. We went weeks without a title. And then finally my brilliant editor, Whit Frick, remembered that from the book and said, like Mother, like Mother. And we. We would have applauded, but we were so tired. We just.

[Kate]

You know, this was. We always know. We're gonna have a great discussion about a book that we like when we call each other after we finished it. And we can't quite decide what we think. The central theme is we had a great sort of taste, great less filling debate, my father and I. You know, is it about the inevitability of family? Is it about whether women can have it all? Is it about what ambition means when it applies to. Throughout various ages in time? I guess I want to ask with. What was the first kernel and what, in your mind, is the central theme to Like Mother, Like Mother?

[Susan Rieger]

I think it's. The central theme, I would say, is how we pass things down. You know, not only the way we look, but the way we think and the way we act and the gestures we make and the work we do often. Actually, the book started with Lila's death.

[Charlie Gibson]

It does start with Lila's death.

[Susan Rieger]

Yes. And one of my theories is you never. You have to bury your parents twice. The first time you put them in the ground. And the second time you Come to the realization that they're never going to change. And if you're going to move forward, you have to change or continue to blame them. My rule with my children was 30 was the statute of limitations. I was no longer to be blamed for anything that happened. They were on their own.

[Charlie Gibson]

I didn't actually write it down, but I must have counted at least six and maybe more than that. Different relationships between mothers and daughters in this book. Because you go through three generations, and there are many people in each of those generations. And then. I'm not giving anything away. You introduce a whole other family to the book in the last part, and then there's more. Mother, daughter relations. I'm wondering, what was yours? Talk to me about your mom. What was your relationship with your mom?

[Susan Rieger]

Difficult. My editor asked me, where does Lila Pereira come from? And I was thinking about it, and I said, well, it took me a while to think about it. My first reaction came from my head, you know, Athena bursting from Zeus. But then I started thinking about it, and I thought, there would be no Lila Pereira without Roma Giovanitti, who is my mother. And she was older than Lila. She didn't have Lila's career. Lila's, in fact, would be younger than I am. But he had many of Lila's qualities. She was very smart. She was very funny. Her relationship with my father was the most important. She always had her back. She was never looked inward. Never looked inward. What was the point? Just keep moving forward. So there was a lot. I didn't realize it, but, you know, you do take what's available at hand. And my mother is always available at hand. I think of her, you know, at least once a day. And my father was an absolute sweetheart. And he was like Joe, like. Though less active in our upbringing, but he was a doll.

[Charlie Gibson]

Well, the principal relationships are the youngest generation, Grace, and her mother, Lila, who was such a hard charger. But as I say, there are so many other relationships between mothers and daughters in this book. And I kept feeling, Kate and I did have this discussion at great length. Read the book about whether it's just family or whether it's just mother and daughters. But there are so many different relationships. And I wondered if you were simply trying to say, well, there is no cookie cutter relationship. It's all different. But the relationship with your mother is absolutely paramount in your life.

[Susan Rieger]

I think for some people, not, I think, for instance, for Ruth, her real mother was her grandmother. Her own mother really didn't raise her. And as her grandmother said, she was 35 when Ruth was born and she said, I'm finally old enough to be a mother. And really. And then there's Frances, whom I absolutely love. I would like to be more like Frances as a grandmother, but I haven't succeeded. And that's a mother son relationship, though she. There's also daughter in law, mother and daughter in law. And the relationship between Ruth and Nico's mother. I mean, it's about family, really. But because the mother daughter relationship is probably the most fraught in my experience, people's relationships with their mothers are the most difficult.

[Charlie Gibson]

I wouldn't say most difficult. Well, yes, in many cases most difficult. But most important, I remember Richard Nixon, when he resigned, saying, my mother was a saint. And I thought to myself, you know, everybody has their own feelings about their mothers. They're so strong, and I hate to say it as a man, but probably more important in their minds, in most cases, that's terrible to generalize, but in most cases, more important than the mother.

[Susan Rieger]

It's very interesting that you're a father daughter working together, because I think my father feelings towards me, and I think I'm one of three in the middle. And I think I always think I was the one who was clearly closest to him. My mother took the first and the last, and I think his attention to me made me as successful as I was going to be. My mother gave me content, and my father gave me confidence. And so I really can't say that mom's relationship is more important than my father's. But she was so vivid. She was just so vivid. That does sort of occupy a lot of space. And like, all my friends loved her.

[Kate]

So it seems to me like you're saying the relationship you have with your mother is inescapable. But you can create mother relationships with other people in your life that you choose and still launch successfully. Is that a proper interpretation of what I'm hearing you say?

[Susan Rieger]

I think it's more that my mother once said to me that she shouldn't have handed me off to my father so soon. But I think I was quite lucky that she did that. And I think I've always thought if you had one really good parent who loved you and thought you were terrific, you'd be okay. Two was just a bonus of enormous. I think of my daughter and my son and their spouses who are terrific parents all around. And I keep thinking how my ex husband and I, how bad could we have been if they were such wonderful parents? And then they look at me with eyebrows raised. But I do think you need one really good parent. And I wouldn't have given up either parent because they made me who I am. And I'm pretty happy with who I am at the moment.

[Charlie Gibson]

My brother, at my mom's funeral wrote a piece, and he said no one was so aware of my faults, but so too, was no one so aware of my ultimate perfection. And I thought that was probably as good a description of parenting and of the feelings you have. And I kept thinking about that phrase as I read this book and thinking, in whose minds was that kind of feeling?

[Susan Rieger]

I think that was Joe. Joe would tell Grace when she was acting out in ways he didn't like, and actually, so would Ruth, and he would affirm her, too. But I also think Lila came in for a lot of affirmations. When she paid attention, it wasn't negative. Never teased her children, she was never mean to her children. As the starboard said, she never hit us. And that was kind of monumental for someone coming from her background. And so I think, you know, Lila would tell her she was good, she was a writer, and she understood Grace. I love when she says at one point, grace is a lot like me, but I'm nothing like her. And I think that was true. Sometimes your characters say things that are true that you didn't know were true.

[Charlie Gibson]

So I spent a lot of time while reading this trying to analyze the characters and looking at their relationships with their mothers, et cetera. And I wondered if you sort of, as you wrote, put them on the couch and tried to figure out exactly what they were thinking and how they might even talk to a psychiatrist about their mothers.

[Susan Rieger]

Ah, well, Lila would never talk to a psychiatrist about anything that's just outside of Lila's. Can. I can imagine Frances getting some help. I don't see Grace or the starbirds getting help. Ruth might. Ruth might. The softer characters might. But the whole point of Lila, what I tried to imagine was what would someone who grew up in a violent home be like to move ahead and to move ahead with such ambition and drive. And I felt she had to put it from my point of view, not having grown up in a violent home, I was never hit at all how she that she would never not looking back. There was just nothing to be gained by looking back. Just keep eyes front and not looking inward either.

[Kate]

When we call each other to find out if we're liking something that we're reading, it always comes down to the same thing, is, does the person stick the landing? Does the author stick the landing? So in some ways, it's not worth having a conversation until we're finished. And one of the things I love most about Like Mother. Like Mother is it's entertaining throughout, but it really sticks the landing. In fact, we were just talking about this before you came on. It has one of my favorite last lines of a book ever. So I want to know how careful a plotter are you, and did you know where you were going to end when you really started telling Zelda's story through Lila and Grace at the beginning of the book?

[Charlie Gibson]

And I would put one addendum on that, which was we've talked about the fact that there are so many different iterations of mother, daughter, relations, and yet that last line, and I'm not gonna give it away, but that last line sums them all up to me.

[Kate]

I just wanted to know, you know, you stick the landing so well, and I'm just interested to know how careful a plotter you are. And did you know what happened to Zelda and Lila's past when you. When Lila died.

[Susan Rieger]

There was once a Goodreads that I read, and it was a cranky reader who said, I don't know. She seemed to have made it up as she went along. And I was thinking, what do you think fiction is? I mean, Dickens plotted out his novels, and I know people who have boards up. I don't. I start with a character and I go where the character takes me. And the great thing about a novel, though, is when you sit down, you have so much space, you can go anywhere. And once you create someone like Lila, you begin to narrow the possibilities. What can someone like Naila do? And you keep going. And then my husband, who's a writer, said, well, there's a mystery about Zelda through it, so you better have a payoff. He kept on saying, you can't just have it boring or uninteresting. You've got to do something. And so I didn't know what was going to happen in the last part.

[Charlie Gibson]

And again, I would ask if you had that last line in mind. I'm not going to give away what it is. Readers should keep it in suspense as they read. But I thought it perfectly summed up mother, daughter, relationships.

[Susan Rieger]

No, it came very late. It came really towards the end. You know, I wanted Grace to grow up, and she has to grow up. She's, you know, life is going on and she's getting older. And so I thought you had to come. You have to come to grips with who they are, I think, to move forward. And Lila moved forward by. By blanking them out and could do it very successfully.

[Kate]

So you're sort of a seat of the pants writer. But there's a careful structure to this book. The first section is, you know, it opens with Lila's death, but in some ways it's an examination of her life, her past, her career. Then you talk about Grace and Grace's important relationship with Ruth and Ruth and their relationship with Frances, like. So why did these three sections, these three perspectives, why were they needed to tell the story from beginning to finish.

[Susan Rieger]

Well, but to have a three generation. I'm not really quite sure what I do. I was thinking the other day that Ruth. Ruth was named very much in the beginning. It was one of. I started with Lila's death, and then I went to Ruth and Grace in college. Those are in my first seven pages. And then I come to the end and there's Ruth and her grandmother is reading the story of Ruth. And it does fit in. And I keep on thinking, I am so grateful to my subconscious. I am. It just sort of pieces things together for me. I really do. And in between chapters, I always stop. I take off a week, 10 days, and I think, I say, I put my brain, my unconscious brain to work and I just give it a rest.

[Kate]

But I want to follow up too, because you're the first writer that said, I write a chapter and take time off and then write again. When did that become a part of your process? And what does that break provide you, do you think?

[Susan Rieger]

Well, I wrote my first book when I was dean at Yale and there was just a limit to how many hours a day I could work on something and. And I had a daughter at home at that point. So I think that was part of it. But I don't really remember that too much. But I know I did it with time in between. The second one, definitely by the second one, I was taking time off between the chapters. And I really do think that my mind works on it without forcing it.

[Charlie Gibson]

Susan Rieger, it's a pleasure to talk to you. The book again is Like Mother, Like Mother. It's been out now for about a month and it does get you thinking so much about relationships in your life. And this is a book, as we said, that would be great in book clubs. Thank you for being with us. And if you'd stand by for a few moments, we've got some rapid fire questions for you.

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[Kate]

Some rapid fire questions for Susan Rieger in your acknowledgments you write that you work several of your favorite writer quotes into the dialogue. You name like E.E. cummings and Herman Melville and Beckett and McCourt and and you ask folks to find those quotes and any that you missed. Has anybody taken you up on it?

[Susan Rieger]

No, but one person found a quote that I didn't. I had forgotten to put at the end and it was the quote about craziness in the family. The southerners take them out and you know, put them on the front porch. And that was from Designing Women and I I had to add a I have to add that to it. There you go.

[Charlie Gibson]

Finish a sentence for me. Writing a novel is blank is a.

[Susan Rieger]

Wonderful way to spend the last third of your life.

[Kate]

Lesser known book that you can't stop talking about that you recommend everybody at the moment.

[Susan Rieger]

Well, it was pretty well known oh by the lake by John McGarn and Seamus Heaney, I think said he thought he was the greatest Irish writer of the second half of the 20th century. And I love no, maybe it was Colm to Bean. It was some wonderful Irish writer who said that. But I love that book by the Lake.

[Charlie Gibson]

I think it's in the DNA of Irish writers to be writers. We have fallen in love with Niall Williams who wrote this Is Happiness and now his new book the Time of the Child is wonderful. Wonderful.

[Susan Rieger]

This is Happiness is on my side table.

[Kate]

You love that book. What do you use as a bookmark?

[Susan Rieger]

My daughter had a children's bookstore which closed during COVID called Stories in Brooklyn, which was heartbreaking all around. And I have Stories bookmarks left over.

[Kate]

Oh great.

[Charlie Gibson]

Do you underline? Do you highlight? Do you dog Ear pages. Do you take notes or do you just read and think the heck with it?

[Susan Rieger]

Mostly I just read. Sometimes if I really like something, I'll put a check in the margin and I'll put that page. I'll say what page it's on, but I don't know that I ever go back and look at it.

[Charlie Gibson]

I must say I've forgotten who it was. Ran a contest a couple of years ago and asked people to vote for the best English language novel of the 20th century. What might you have voted for the.

[Susan Rieger]

Best 20th century novel in the English language? A book I always recommend and I did love. I don't know if it's the best. It was certainly one of my top 10 is Joseph O'Neill's Netherlands. I love Netherlands. I thought it was. Oh, well. Oh, and then of course, because the greatest book of the 20th century, without a doubt, is the Great Gatsby. And I think the Netherlands, I think is. I connect those two. I love the Great Gatsby.

[Kate]

I do, too. Every sentence is a work of art.

[Susan Rieger]

It's just a work of genius.

[Charlie Gibson]

Best compliment you ever received from a reader?

[Susan Rieger]

The best compliment I ever received from a reader.

[Charlie Gibson]

I'm presuming you've gotten some.

[Susan Rieger]

I do, but I just can't think that I do. When my granddaughter said she was obsessed with the book, I almost wept, you know, to have a dog, somebody, you know, third generation old enough to read your books and to love it.

[Kate]

Awesome.

[Charlie Gibson]

Susan Rieger, again, many thanks. We appreciate your being with us and it's been fun to talk to you.

[Kate]

Yeah, thank you so much.

[Charlie Gibson]

So I really do recommend this book, Like Mother, Like Mother. And I'm pleased to see in my local bookstores it's very much featured. So grab it. If you're interested in a book for your daughter or your mom or your grandmother or even guys can pick it up. Because male mother relations are also explored in the book.

[Kate]

I think, you know, it's actually. It goes to show you. We do listen. It goes to show ya, just to use a Midwestern phrase, you know. But we do listen to the independent booksellers that we talk to because we'd heard about Like Mother, Like Mother from a few independent booksellers, and that was why we picked it up. So if you hear some scribbling when we talk to an independent bookseller, like the one we're about to speak with, it'll be because I'm taking notes and sometimes you'll see a guest or two come from an independent bookseller recommendation. Like this one did. So thank you.

[Charlie Gibson]

As Kate mentioned, this was recommended to us by some of the independent booksellers that we talked to. And indeed, it is one of the featured books in the bookseller that we're about to talk to. Warwick Books is in La Jolla, California, and its owner is Nancy Warwick. This store has been in the Warwick family for what, four generations, I think, Kate. And we also talked to Julie Slavinsky, who is one of her employees, and helped her save the store when its future became uncertain. They didn't want to let it die after so many generations, and they were able to save it. So here it is, Warwick Books in La Jolla, California. Nancy Warwick and Julie Slavinsky. Nancy Warwick and Julie Slavinsky. It's good to have you both with us. Warwick's Books in La Jolla. People can find it on Gerard Avenue. And I'm fascinated, Nancy, by the fact, first of all, your last name is Warwick, so obviously there's a connection. And secondly, there's a whole lot of Warwicks who have been involved in the store. How far back does it go?

[Susan Rieger]

So I'm the fourth generation Warwick to run the store, and my great grandfather started the store in 1896. His wife passed and he decided to move to La Jolla. His sister had been living in La Jolla, and a bookstore in La Jolla Readings, which started, I think, in 1898, was up for sale at our current location. So he bought Reading's bookstore, changed it to Warwick's, and actually bought the store and then married the woman who sold it to him.

[Charlie Gibson]

So did you just grow up expecting, expected to take over the business?

[Susan Rieger]

My grandfather was a traveling Salesman for Rand McNally, and he didn't take over the store till my dad was in college with my grandmother. And my dad was in graduate school and had a master's in biology and had been teaching, and they had other careers, and I was in anthropology and have a doctorate in anthropology. I was not expecting my parents to retire. They actually announced their retirement at age 65. And my grandmother worked till age 98, so it was off the radar. My husband and I were living in la, but it's always been in my blood. I love the store. One of the things that was also nice about the way my parents raised us with the store is not only did they not pressure us to take it over eventually, but at the same time, the store, it was part of our identities growing up, and it was not a dysfunctional family business. My parents really enjoyed working together. They shared an office they went home for lunch together every day and they had a lot of fun with it. It's always been kind of a close relationship with the staff and with the, the customer base. Very family oriented in a larger sense. And they would always include us in the good stories and the bad stories and ask our opinions from the youngest age. So we always felt like it was just part of all of us.

[Kate]

So I always ask bookstore owners why they're crazy enough to own a bookstore. But for you I'd have to go back four generations and ask your grandparents and your grandparents grandparents. So I mean at any point did any family members say boy, they keep, you know, I mean has the book business been in danger since 1896? Like is the insanity in the jeans? Tell me.

[Susan Rieger]

So one of the unique things about the store, we're a large store, people come, it's their go to place to feel good. We have people that every morning they start their day at 9 o'clock at the store, usually with their dog. And so it's very, there's an old fashioned element and yet we really stay current at the same time in terms of what we offer. And you know, it's, you always have to have a great selection but it's. We have a lot of employees that have been there for years. We have people who've been there over 30 years and, and then we have our young group that comes and goes depending on what they're doing next in life. But we have a lot of customers who come in and say this is my happy place.

[Charlie Gibson]

Oh, that's really nice. First of all, looking at your store on the web, you have a huge storefront and it's a good looking, inviting place. And I think Nancy wrote me, said there was some period of time where you thought you might lose the location and you were part of what helped save it.

[Julie Slavinsky]

Well, I'm going to let Nancy take the background of the losing it because I wasn't involved in that part of it. I was came at the end where it's like, oh, we should do something, we should be a part of this.

[Susan Rieger]

The Corey family built the building in like 1919, so their family always had it. And as you know, the shares, it's, it gets large and a lot of family members are in other parts of the country and people get disconnected to the business. So they had over 30 Corey family members in 2021 had a share in the store, in the building. So some of the family members wanted to sell it and they, they had always promised me they, they wouldn't sell it with this long term relationship. But it was profitable for them. But they took an unsolicited bid for the store. They accepted it. In the meantime, we've been renegotiating a new lease with the Corey family when this happened. And our realtor introduced us to a very well known local person, Jack McGrory, who was the city manager of San Diego in the 90s. And he's a beloved figure, does all these great things for the community. We were told by the Cory family we had two weeks to beat the offer and it had to be cash and then they would accept a counteroffer. And so Jack went to work with our real estate agent, Steve avoyer. And within two weeks they had 34 different individuals and couples who raised the money to buy the building. And Julie and her husband were one of the couples. And my husband and I, of course, we invested in it and it was a great story.

[Julie Slavinsky]

The building holds so much memories for you, Nancy. I mean, going up in the, you know, the, the dumbwaiter as a kid. And there's things about the building that while it's the business, the building was really important and for us and for me. I've worked for Nancy since 2010, but I've got, I've shopped at Warwick's since 1979 when I moved down to college. So I've been a part of Warwick's in my, in my life for a long time. And so for us and for my husband, it was one of those. I mean, we're of the age where we're investing in things and we're doing things and it's like, I kind of want a piece of this history.

[Susan Rieger]

They were all loyal customers who bought into the building. Jack was so amused because he said people so quickly when he called them said of course. I mean, they, it's so integral to the identity of La Jolla and, and the larger San Diego were right in the heart of La Jolla. And we've also invested not just in the interior of the store, but since I took over the store in 1997, I've always treated the building as though we own the building. So we've taken really good care of it.

[Charlie Gibson]

So Julie, you had people walking in the door and you were saying, would you like to buy a book? And oh, by the way, would you like to buy the store?

[Julie Slavinsky]

It's interesting. The people who did come up there and the feeling of ownership that they have is. They have their opinions too. They'll tell you what they would like to have happened.

[Charlie Gibson]

So. So, Julie, you now have 34 families who have ponied up. Now you bought the store. Do you have to take their advice on what books to stock?

[Julie Slavinsky]

Well, that's why I say it's really because I'm the director of events there, so I do a lot. I mean, all of our event programming that we do, they have very strong opinions about who we need to have come and be at the store.

[Charlie Gibson]

As the events director, I. You get people in and. And bookstores really depend on. But what's a successful event? I mean, do you have to sell X number of books to make it a worthwhile event?

[Julie Slavinsky]

I look at it a little bit differently, and this is a testament to Nancy too. There's a lot more to a successful event than just the hard dollars. Obviously the hard dollars are very important, but I find that my job is to bring fans and people who are beloved of an author and that author together. And I'm the one that makes that decision connection happen. You obviously have to have very successful events with selling lots of books. But there's a connection that I play in making and matching those people up that I think is as important, if not more important.

[Charlie Gibson]

And a number of bookstore owners have told us, Julie, that the events above and beyond the number of books sold are critical in developing loyal customers.

[Kate]

I think we have to. I have to talk to Nancy. I feel like this is a little bit of an intervention. Tell me if my father has told me wrong. If you go on your staff picks, you have in the hundreds. I mean, Nancy, do we have a bit of an issue here?

[Charlie Gibson]

She has 264 staff picks. I counted them.

[Kate]

What do you do? Like, do you do anything else, Nancy? And do we have to have an intervention that pulls you away from the books sometimes?

[Susan Rieger]

My husband and I, when we moved down here in the 90s, we bought a house in Point Loma. And it used to always be a 25 minute drive. And over the years with Rush hour, it's like 45 minutes often. So I include audiobooks in that.

[Charlie Gibson]

Nancy Warwick and Julie Slavinsky. Good to talk to both of you. May Warwick's go on for many, many years to follow. The oldest family owned independent bookstore in America.

[Kate]

Warwick Books in La Jolla, California. We actually talked to them a little while ago, but I'm so glad that we're having them on the 19th, which is like six days before Christmas, which is when this show will premiere, because it's got an almost It's a Wonderful Life aspect to it, you know, George Bailey of the old savings alone. You know, I mean, everybody sort of chipped in and saved the bookstore. And I just, again, if anybody's out there listening that's thinking about starting a bookstore that's listening to people say, the book business is dead. The book business is dead. This book business is four generations old. And when they turned to the community and said, give us a hand, the community was like, are you kidding? You're a part of our life's blood.

[Sponsor]

So.

[Kate]

So books are not dead. It gives me hope.

[Charlie Gibson]

Just a couple of pieces of business before we remind you who makes this podcast possible and gives you a coda from Susan Rieger. Number one, next week we're gonna break format and we're gonna talk about a classic. What better classic to talk about in this season than A Christmas Carol? And we're gonna talk to two Dickens scholars about why the book has had such. Such an impact. And secondly, Kate and I just recorded a piece for Good Morning America. Hasn't aired yet, but we recommended our favorite book for Christmas. And you do have a few days to pick them up, if you could. Number one, we both agreed Niall Williams book Time for the Child. And it's just, it's a wonderful book. It's beautifully written, perfect for the Christmas season. Ann Patchett's annotated Bel Canto. We think that's a wonderful book for readers who. Well, it's just a really, as we say, a great object lesson in how to read because she annotates her own book from 25 years ago, points out her mistakes. It's really a great insight into a great writer. Then Kate had two others. They were.

[Kate]

It's amazing that we Both agreed on 1 and 2 and we were so glad that they asked us for our book picks. And I agree, by the way, you cannot go wrong picking up people on your list. Time of the Child by Nael Williams or any reader on your list will love the annotated Bel Canto. They're just such a treat and they really do deserve a warm fire and a cup of cocoa. I don't know, I just. I wish I was getting them for Christmas so I could read them again for the first time. I'm that much of a nerd.

[Charlie Gibson]

And then because we were doing the piece for Good Morning America, you picked George Stephanopoulos book. You, you, you. I won't say it.

[Kate]

Suck up. Are you going to call me a suck up? Are you gonna call me a suck up?

[Charlie Gibson]

A little bit.

[Kate]

There's a reason that I think George Stephanopoulos book is everybody has a nonfiction reader on their list for the season. And it's really hard to, you know, we're a country divided. So maybe if you don't agree with Uncle Murray's political views, you can still get Uncle Murray's George Stephanopoulos, the Situation Room. And you can discuss history in an oblique, non offensive, we don't throw mashed potatoes at each other or get wine in the face kind of, you know, family table discussion.

[Charlie Gibson]

Right, Right. And your other book?

[Kate]

My other book was Table for Two by Amor Toles, a wonderful, wonderful book of short stories. The best book of short stories I think I've read in a long time. Although I did love Neighbors by Diane Oliver this year as well. But table for Two, every single short story was a gem and it was a real pleasure to read. He is such a talent.

[Charlie Gibson]

And my two other books were Jodi Picolt by Any Other Name, which I loved, and Elizabeth Strout's book, Tell Me Everything. So anyway, that's it for us. We hope you have a great Christmas. We'll see you after Christmas Day. And anyway, here are the folks who work on this show other than the two of us. And then a coda from Susan Rieger. Merry Christmas, everybody.

[Kate]

Yeah, Merry Christmas. The Bookcase with Kate and Charlie Gibson is a production of ABC Audio and Good Morning America. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions. Our executive producers are Laura Mayer and Simone Swink. We want to make mention of Taylor Rhodes, Amanda McMaster and Sarah Russell at Good Morning America and Josh Cohen, Asal Asanapour, Meg Fiero and Amira Williams at ABC Audio.

[Susan Rieger]

I think that my coda would be Tell all the truth, but Tell it slant, which is a line from Emily Dickinson. I tend to be an indirect writer and I interpret that as I'd like people to think this book is true, even though it was made up.