24. Jane Austen, Nazis and Murder: The Ultimate Summer Reading List

Summary

The Book Club – Episode 24: Jane Austen, Nazis and Murder: The Ultimate Summer Reading List
Hosts: Dominic Sandbrook & Tabitha Syrett
Date: July 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This lively summer bonus episode of The Book Club is dedicated to the perfect holiday reading list. Hosts Dominic and Tabitha select three favorite books each—ranging from classic crime to highbrow literature and immersive historical fiction—that are ideal for the beach, countryside, or a quiet getaway. Throughout, the hosts reflect humorously on their own cherished and awkward summer reading memories, linking each book to personal travel anecdotes and historical context.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Magic (and Mild Peril) of Summer Reading

Timestamps: [04:33]–[08:29]

• Personal Reading Anecdotes:
  • Dominic shares his experience as a young teen encountering "scandalous" historical fiction in a cramped family hotel room, sparking his awareness of adult content in novels.
    • Quote:

      "It was the first book I'd ever read that had sex scenes in it... I was just, like, going redder and redder." —Dominic [05:32]

  • Tabitha recounts being given a stack of Philippa Gregory novels full of saucy scenes in childhood, her mother unaware of the explicit content.
    • Quote:

      "I was just slowly, like, consuming, like, sex scene after sex scene as an 8 or 9 year old... My teacher at school was like, your mum's bought those for you. Is she okay?" —Tabitha [07:57]

• Reflections: Both hosts highlight how formative and sometimes mortifying childhood summer reading experiences can be, including the fear of running out of reading material while away from home.

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2. Dominic’s Summer Reading Picks

a) And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie

Timestamps: [08:31]–[12:48]

• Why It Works:
  • Set on a remote island, ideal for the isolation of holiday reading.
  • Christie’s skill with suspense, psychological insight, and the darker aspects of human nature.
    • Quote:

      "She's got a really dark view of human nature. This idea that kind of we are all potential killers..." —Dominic [10:09]

  • The plot: Ten guests with mysterious pasts are drawn to Soldier Island and picked off one by one.
• Personal Connection:
  • Dominic visited the real-life inspiration, Burgh Island, and links the book to his holiday on the Devon coast.

b) The Talented Mr. Ripley by Patricia Highsmith

Timestamps: [18:07]–[21:50]

• Atmosphere:
  • Set on the glamorous Amalfi coast, read by Dominic on his honeymoon in Italy.
  • Highsmith’s anti-hero, Tom Ripley—a master of reinvention—draws in readers’ sympathy despite his escalating crimes.
    • Quote:

      "You want him to succeed, he's a hero. But... he starts killing people... And you absolutely, you know, you are on his side, you're on his team even as you're appalled by what he's doing." —Dominic [20:57]

  • Discussion of its connections to other outsider narratives and American identity.
  • Recommended as perfect escapism with a dark psychological twist.

c) The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco

Timestamps: [25:29]–[31:16]

• Setting & Substance:
  • Medieval Italian monastery, full of ecclesiastical intrigue, murder, and literary allusion.
  • Both a dazzling whodunit and a postmodern meditation on books, history, and semiotics.
  • Anecdote: Dominic's embarrassing experience watching the movie’s love scene with parents as a teen.
    • Quote:

      "There's this peasant girl who comes in... He disrobes this peasant girl and this was the first time I'd ever seen a scene like this on tv. But the worst thing was watching it with my parents." —Dominic [30:32]

  • Considered long and rich, suitable for a holiday with time to savor it.

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3. Tabitha’s Summer Reading Picks

a) Fatherland by Robert Harris

Timestamps: [12:48]–[17:53]

• Synopsis:
  • Alternative history thriller: Nazis win WWII, set in 1964 Berlin.
  • Blends gripping detective narrative with chillingly plausible world-building.
  • Perfect for devouring in a sunny, isolated setting (in Tabitha’s case, a beach in the Maldives).
    • Quote:

      "It's the ultimate what if... And the world building is, I think, excellent because he doesn't explain anything. He just will put details into this reimagined Europe." —Tabitha [13:24], [15:07]

• Personal Touch:
  • Both Tabitha and her fiancé rapidly read it, making for a memorable—if not terribly social—holiday.

b) Emma by Jane Austen

Timestamps: [21:59]–[25:29]

• Context:
  • Quintessential English countryside setting; leisure, picnics, and subtle social stakes.
  • Emma’s character divides opinion, but she’s always been endearing to Tabitha.
    • Quote:

      "I'm creating a heroine who no one but myself will much like..." —Tabitha (quoting Austen) [22:42]

  • Praised for sparkling dialogue, irony, and narrative sophistication.
  • Evokes nostalgia for English summers and family holidays.

c) The Winter King by Bernard Cornwell

Timestamps: [31:16]–[35:55]

• Unique Take:
  • A gritty, realistic, yet magical retelling of the Arthurian legend set in post-Roman Britain.
  • Vibrant characters and settings—muddy battlefields, dying pagan rituals, and sharply-drawn heroes and anti-heroes.
    • Quote:

      "It's so enjoyable. And I actually reread it last on a trip to... Hadrian's Wall. And the setting couldn't have been more perfect. You can stand on the wall and imagine..." —Tabitha [34:10]

  • Cited as foundational to her friendship with Dominic.

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4. Cross-Picks & Bonus Highlights

• Themes of Reading Location: Locations enhance reading—whether it’s a murder mystery set on an island you’re actually visiting, or reading about the English countryside while in it.
• Childhood and Family Mishaps: Many stories are linked to funny or awkward family travel mishaps, reinforcing books as both escape and memory-makers.
• Recurring Jokes: Light teasing about highbrow versus lowbrow choices and the relative quality of holiday destinations (e.g., Devon vs. the Maldives).
• Relatable Parent-Child Moments: Both hosts bond over the universal childhood trauma of accidentally encountering adult content in books or films with parents present.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Agatha Christie’s Enduring Appeal:

  "I think she is one of the most underrated modern writers... she’s a master or indeed a mistress of releasing information to you. But also, she’s got a really dark view of human nature." —Dominic [10:07]

• On Highsmith’s Tom Ripley:

  "You want him to succeed, he’s a hero. But he goes through the book... killing people... you are on his side, you’re on his team even as you’re appalled by what he’s doing." —Dominic [20:57]

• On Austen’s Emma:

  "Emma herself is a very polarizing heroine... Jane Austen herself said, 'I’m creating a heroine who no one but myself will much like,' because she is very flawed... but she is so amusing... I have always rooted for her." —Tabitha [22:42–24:09]

• On Cornwell’s Arthurian Saga:

  "The setting is glorious. It is so believable and immersive... It kind of catapults you between very dark, bloody realism and fantastical, epic, almost fantasy." —Tabitha [33:10]

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Host’s Final Recommendations

Timestamps: [37:22]–[38:02]

• Dominic: The Name of the Rose — "You can read it purely as a whodunit... it opens the way to so many other books. And it's also longer."
• Tabitha: The Winter King — "Because just speaking about it... I was so animated by it... I'm gonna go with the Winter King. I've probably read that book four times!"

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Upcoming Episodes Preview

Timestamps: [38:15]–[39:24]

The hosts quickly tease future episodes and selections:

• My Brilliant Friend (Italy)
• Brave New World
• For Whom the Bell Tolls (Spain)
• Rebecca (Cornwall), Lolita (road trip), Lord of the Flies, A Month in the Country, American Psycho (New York), Jane Eyre, Goldfinger, The Bell Jar, Dune, Harry Potter, Norwegian Wood, and more.

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Tone & Atmosphere

• Language & Style: Witty, playful, filled with digressions and warm banter. The tone mixes intellectual insight with nostalgia and gentle self-mockery about reading habits and past gaffes.
• Energy: Engaging, informal, and accessible—ideal for listeners who love both deep dives and cheeky asides.

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For the Summer: The Ultimate Book Club Holiday List

Dominic’s Picks:

• And Then There Were None (Agatha Christie)
• The Talented Mr. Ripley (Patricia Highsmith)
• The Name of the Rose (Umberto Eco)

Tabitha’s Picks:

• Fatherland (Robert Harris)
• Emma (Jane Austen)
• The Winter King (Bernard Cornwell)

If you only choose one: Dominic picks The Name of the Rose; Tabitha picks The Winter King.

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A perfect episode for listeners seeking gripping escapes, literary classics, and humorous memories to inspire their summer reading!

Transcript

[Dominic]

This episode is brought to you by the London Review of Books.

[Tabby]

And now we are certainly not shy of digging into things on the book club, whether that is why it is that a classic novel endures or why more contemporary novels manage to capture a particular zeitgeist or mood.

[Dominic]

So the London Review of Books, an absolutely brilliant periodical by the way, operates on much the same principle.

[Tabby]

Each issue is an archive of long form essays, poetry, cultural criticism, and of course, the famed book reviews.

[Dominic]

In an age of clipped opinions and half baked insights, the LRB is the outlier. It's a trustworthy source that prioritises the thinking, not the word count.

[Tabby]

So try three months of the London Review of Books completely free when you sign up today. Subscribe now at LRB Me Bookclub.

[Dominic]

So that is LRB Me Bookclub to try three months of the London Review of Books for free.

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[Tabby]

There was so much time that marvellous summer. Day after day, mist rose from the meadow as the sky lightened and hedges, barns and woods took shape until at last the long curving back of the hills lifted away from the plain. It was a sort of stage magic. Now you don't see Indeed, there is nothing to see. Day after day it was like that. And each morning I leaned on the yard gate dragging at my first fag and I'd like to think marveling at the splendid backcloth, but it can't have been. So I'm not the marveling kind. Or was I then? But one thing is sure, I had a feeling of immense content. And if I thought at all, it was that I'd like this to go on and on. No one going, no one coming. Autumn and winter always loitering around the corner, Summer's ripeness lasting forever. Nothing disturbing the even tenor of my way, as I think someone may have said before me. So hello, everybody, welcome to the book club. That was from A Month in the country by J.L. carr, with which Dominic and I are now both very familiar because we recently recorded it on the show and it will be coming to the book club in August, I think.

[Dominic]

I think so, yeah. Perfect for summer.

[Tabby]

Perfect for summer. And it is indeed a wonderfully elusive, haunting story about loss and beauty and art. And it's set in the aftermath of the First World War and it's in that long, hot summer of 1920. And so with summer at the forefront of our minds, we thought, well, we should probably do a summer reading bonus. So each of us has picked out three books that we think are fun reads, you know, escapist and gripping in different ways that you can take on holiday with you to some, you know, appropriately summary places sometimes tied into the book, at other times less so. Okay, yeah, Dominic, take it, take it away.

[Dominic]

Well, first of all, summer reading. Summer reading is quite a special experience, isn't it? Because you've basically got a week or two away from the office or whatever or away from school or university or whatever it might be away from your

[Tabby]

desk where you read endlessly to read endlessly on a beach.

[Dominic]

But I actually genuinely would. I do take loads of books on holiday and one of the joys for me of going on holidays is doing loads of reading when I think back to when I was a child. So our producer Nicole said, oh, have a think about your summer reading experiences. And actually the one that really sticks out for me. So I went on holiday and my parents on a sort of 1980s package holiday, and I ran out of books in this terrible hotel which I think was in like Rhodes or Crete or somewhere like this sort of high rise monolith, and they had a little bookshop in the lobby and not many English language books. And I bought this one. It was a historical novel about the Cathars. And it really stuck in my mind because I was about 11 or 12, and it was the first book I'd ever read that had sex scenes in it and descriptions of female nudity.

[Tabby]

So presumably at this point you were aspiring.

[Dominic]

I was just, like, going redder and redder. I was going kind of bright red. And what was worse was it was like a comical mishap with the hotel. So the booking had all gone wrong. And instead of having two rooms, like, me and my brother in one room, my parents in another, we all had to share the same room, which I remember, like, my brother and I thought it was quite fun. But my parents. My brother was like six or something, but my parents were gutted and I couldn't. We couldn't understand why they were so cut. Oh. Anyway, so I was reading this book and I kept thinking, oh, my God, I hope my parents don't see what I'm reading. But just kind of. It was like a sort of. My. My. This sort of nuclear bomb was in my head or something, getting bigger and bigger, and I was about to explode.

[Tabby]

So Innocence Lost.

[Dominic]

Totally. So that's my most memorable summer reading experience. What? What?

[Tabby]

I actually had something quite similar because, you know, I was going to say, well, presumably this book didn't look, you know, saucy. It didn't exactly like the Karma Sutra. Like, presumably it just had, I don't know, like a castle on it or something. So I had something similar. I went on holiday and the house that I went to, I finished my book halfway through, and there would, you know, we didn't have Kindles and stuff like that, so. And I just didn't know what to do. And I think this is probably why that fear of. It's quite pretentious, I know, but being left without a book, I hate, which is why I like to have two on the go at one time. So I got stuck with this dilemma. I was without a book, and I found in the bookshelves of this house something that looked wonderfully historical. And I was very into history. I was about to eight or nine maybe. And it was Philippa Gregory's. The. I think it was called the Virgin's fool or something. And it's about this girl from Spain at the high point of the Inquisition, who comes over to England because she's escaping persecution because she's a Jew. She comes into contact with Elizabeth first as a young girl, and Mary Tudor, whatever. But the important thing to say is that Philippa Gregory's books can be extremely ranch. Saucy, saucy bodice rippers. The Queen's Fool. That's what it was called. The Queen's fool had such passages in it. And my mum thought it was fantastic that I was really getting into the Tudors, you know, getting understanding of the geopolitical situation during that period or whatever it was. And so she was like, this is brilliant. And she bought me like 10 Philippa Gregory books to read for the next few months. And I was just slowly, like, consuming, like, sex scene after sex scene as an 8 or 9 year old. And my teacher at school was like, your mum's bought those for you. Is she okay? Are you okay? And I was very, very sad when I got rumbled.

[Dominic]

Well, as you know, this is Sambra Junior's experience for Game of Thrones.

[Tabby]

I do know this is true.

[Dominic]

My dad bought him Game of Thrones. I'd read the book, but I was like, I think it's much tamer than the TV series.

[Tabby]

Yeah, it's much tamer than the Cathars.

[Dominic]

And then I kind of opened it to try to justify this to somebody, I think my wife, and said, look at this, it's absolutely fine. And it fell open on this page. I was like, oh, God, it's terrible.

[Tabby]

Presumably that's the night that Daenerys Targaryen. It's her wedding night with Khal Drogo.

[Dominic]

It was that scene. And I knew he'd already read it and he said, yes, I did discuss it with people at school. I was like, of course he did. Anyway, we've got massively off track.

[Tabby]

Off track as usual.

[Dominic]

Let's get to this first summer read.

[Tabby]

So what's your first summer read? Why this one? And is it associated with any particular location for you?

[Dominic]

So, first of all, I thought, I'm a big fan of islands. I like going to islands on holiday.

[Tabby]

Sorry, say more. You like islands?

[Dominic]

I like an island. If I'm on holiday, I like the experience of island island hopping or similar. So, for example, the islands of the Adriatic. I like a boat trip. I'm obsessed with boat trips.

[Tabby]

You're a yacht man.

[Dominic]

I'm not a yacht man. I'm more of. I like a fair yacht. The book is one of the most famous books ever written set on an island. It is Agatha Christie's and Then There Were None. So lots of listeners will know that this book was originally published under a different title, which I don't propose to mention on the show because I don't want us to be cancelled. But the title was changed for, I think Fairly understandable reasons. The book was published in 1939 and it's set on a place in the book. It's called Soldier island, but it's based on a real place that I've actually been to, and it's called Berg island and it's just off the Devon coast. And basically, if you go there, there's this big beach and there's a sort of sea tractor that takes you when the tide goes out across the channel to this island. And on the island there's an art deco hotel, a hotel that's actually now been restored and it's an amazing kind of art deco condition.

[Tabby]

I read an article about this. You can literally only get there when.

[Dominic]

Yeah, by the sea tractor.

[Tabby]

By the sea tractor, yeah.

[Dominic]

Exactly. When the tide is out. Exactly. Amazing. Agatha Christie stayed at this hotel and they. Now it's very much a place that you go for Agatha Christie nights or murder mystery nights and stuff. Yeah, they completely buy into it. And you can understand why, because the book is one of her most famous, one of her most celebrated, I think, Agatha Christie. I mean, we are going to do Agatha Christie on the show in a few months.

[Tabby]

Yeah. Quite special circumstances.

[Dominic]

In special circumstances, exactly. And I think she is one of the most underrated modern writers. People have always decried her fiction as very underwritten, but I think, actually think she's a master or indeed a mistress of releasing information to you. But also she's got a really dark view of human nature. This idea that kind of we are all potential killers and that crime, evil is often born out of weakness and out of jealousy and all of this. I love all this. I love her sense of psychology.

[Tabby]

I remember you discussed this on our Sherlock Holmes episode and I thought it was very, very interesting. You compared the fact he sort of has these grand scales and this, you know, in the hand of the Baskerville's supernatural element. Whereas with her, it's kind of like the guy, you know, you're the person, you feel, you know, the person that shares a bed with you every night. What are they hiding? You know, the living room is full of dark secrets, not, I don't know, the moorlands.

[Dominic]

It's domestic. And the people. The person who's going to kill you is either motivated by, you see, it's either money or sexual jealousy. In Agatha Christie's fiction and in this particular book, it's such a brilliant. It's such a brilliant conceit. It's these 10 people who get an invitation to. An unexpected invitation to basically a sort of weekend party on this island. And they're like, oh, well, it sounds great. Why not go. And it's from an. A mysterious person called Mr. U.N. owen. I mean, it's unknown, basically. And they go.

[Tabby]

And none of them think to. To question this.

[Dominic]

No, because then there'd be no story.

[Tabby]

Yeah.

[Dominic]

And they all go. And the 10 people all have dark secrets. Of course, when they get there, they find out that he's not there, but this kind of tape recorded message, if I remember right. And then, I mean, without giving. I mean, it was published in 1939. This isn't a massive spoiler that the conceit is one by one they start to die and they are being punished

[Tabby]

for these dark secrets.

[Dominic]

Exactly. Things they did wrong, crimes they committed that have never been uncovered. They're a cross section of society, men and women, from a sort of nervous young woman to a kind of. Sort of septuagenarian judge or something. They become terrified and they start to turn on each other a little bit. Sort of Lord of the Flies or something. There's this mood of growing darkness, basically, if somebody is dying every couple of chapters. So it's absolutely gripping and I think it's. I think it's the kind of book that once you. Even if you dismiss Agatha Christie, I reckon if you start reading it, you will find it very hard to put it down.

[Tabby]

Is that your favorite Agatha Christie or is that the one that you most associate with a particular holiday in the summer?

[Dominic]

It's not my favorite, but I associate it with this place because we went there a few years ago to this beach, into this hotel. And I think the fact that it's on an island, you're isolated in a hotel on holiday, I just think it works. It's a really nice match for the holiday experience.

[Tabby]

I like that. I think that's an excellent choice and yeah, I'd love to get my hands on it. Okay, so my first choice. Yeah, it's an obvious combination. So it's going to be sun, sea and Nazis. Because I have chosen Fatherland by Robert Harris. And I slightly incongruously read it on a beach holiday that I was on last year. And, you know, it was actually a natural fit because this place that I was staying at, there wasn't loads to do.

[Dominic]

Where was the place, Debbie, just of interest?

[Tabby]

I think it was Devon.

[Dominic]

It wasn't Devon.

[Tabby]

It was Devon.

[Dominic]

It was the Maldives.

[Tabby]

Oh, Dominic, you're gonna make me start talking about package holidays.

[Mary Beard]

No.

[Tabby]

What did I say? Companion vouchers. Yeah, yeah, sorry. It was the Maldives. But there's not a lot to do because you, as you say, you're like on a. You're like an island. And to be honest, you could carry out a fantastic murder mystery in the Maldives because you're boated out to like this island with like 200 other people. You're all staying in this one place and there's nowhere else to go. There's not much to do. So I literally lay in the sun for a couple of days reading and I think I devoured Fatherland because it is totally gripping. So what's it about? It's the ultimate what if. It reimagines a world in which the Nazis triumphed in World War II. So it's set in 1964 in Germany. It follows a detective who is investigating what initially seems to be an ordinary murder. But he quickly discovers that there is this conspiracy at the heart of it and it extends to the very top of the regime. I'm not going to spoil anything because really this is. It's. You can't put it down and I don't want to ruin it for people that are considering reading it on their next speech holiday. But it's brilliant. It's a thriller. The pace is brilliant, it has very brisk pacing, short chapters, the tension builds, there's a sense of slightly grotesque mystery in the background. And the strange thing is as well is if you know the history of the Second World War, or at least you know what the Nazis did, which you know, I think most people do. Your. Your pre knowledge combined with this strange, alien, but yet believable world and the growing understanding of the reality of what has happened is very unnerving. And the world building is, I think is excellent because he doesn't explain anything. He just will put details into this reimagined Europe. You know, everyday details, street names, political names, the what's, you know, the fact that who's on the throne in England, the condition in America, that make you like it really does pack out every corner of a reality in which the Nazis might have won. And it's very, very engaging. And I couldn't put it down and it really sped up what could have been quite a dull holiday.

[Dominic]

It's a dull holiday.

[Tabby]

No, it wasn't. It was.

[Dominic]

Your traveling companion will be delighted to hear that. Oh,

[Tabby]

well, no, it was a wonderful holiday. It was a wonderful holiday.

[Dominic]

I could just imagine listening to this. His face. No, he'll be thrilled.

[Tabby]

He read it straight after me because

[Dominic]

I, you know, you're like, God, this is so boring. You have to read it.

[Tabby]

And I thought, well, maybe now we can talk about it. So.

[Dominic]

Right. No, I didn't find something to talk about. Brilliant.

[Tabby]

My poor fiance is getting a massive kicking right now.

[Dominic]

So. It's the book that made Robert Harris's name really, isn't it?

[Tabby]

It was a very big hit. So it was published in 1992 in the UK and it became an international bestseller almost straight away. And as you say, it made his name Tabby.

[Dominic]

You know, I know Robert Harris.

[Tabby]

I do know this. And I've always been very envious. And I think one of the times I've been most starstruck was when I produced on the Rest Is History, an episode that you did with him.

[Dominic]

I remember that so well.

[Tabby]

I was kind of a drooling mess, confronted by this guy whose books I've always so enjoyed.

[Dominic]

You said, after we did it, I said, what did you think of that? And you used an expression I've never. I've seen written down, but I've never heard anybody use. You said, I was pink with glee.

[Tabby]

Oh, God. I use that all the time.

[Dominic]

Yeah. Well, there you go. So you were pink wiggly. That's brilliant. And Robert Harris, I interviewed him in Covid for a literary festival. It was like an online thing. They moved online and he. He was. Exactly. First time I'd really met him, sort of virtually. And he was exactly like I'd hoped he would be. He was sitting. Because he's obviously made a lot of money from his books, and he was sitting in this fantastic library in his house.

[Mary Beard]

Yeah.

[Dominic]

And he was sitting there in this sort of leather armchair, facing the camera and smoking an enormous cigar.

[Tabby]

I was actually gonna say that as a joke. Sincerely.

[Dominic]

No, that's genuinely what he was doing. Anyway, I read. I recommend Fatherland to people as well. I read it. My experience of yours is in the Maldives. I read it on a bus in Wolverhampton, and I. I think that's very glamorous. And I remember, like, hoping that the bus would travel more. Yeah, yeah. Because that would be a traffic jam or something. Because I didn't want to get off the bus because I had, like, 20 pages to go. And it's the bit where he's. He's basically found what the mystery is all about.

[Tabby]

He goes to Switzerland.

[Dominic]

Yeah. Which has been sort of nagging at us the whole time because we, of course, know the story of the Third Reich. Anyway, it's a great book. It's an absolute. You know, if you're after a thriller, I think there are a few better.

[Tabby]

He does thrillers so well, like the Second Sleep. But then, you know, like he did Precipice more recently and that was a quiet, steady book that I thought about Asquith in the Build up to the First World when I thought that was a brilliant one of his.

[Dominic]

Like that. Yeah, I think sometimes they're better, the setups than the resolution.

[Tabby]

I, I agree. I, it. I don't want to speak ill of the great man, but I think sometimes the final portion tails off a bit. The pacing goes awry. Not however, in Fatherland.

[Dominic]

So I'm not going to choose my second book. I am going to Italy. Lots of people like going to Italy and if you're sort of, you know, a high end traveler like me, Tabby you might go to. Or James Bond, you might go to

[Tabby]

the amount who Loves a ferry.

[Dominic]

Yeah. You might go to the Amalfi coast. Some very good ferries at the Amalfi coast, by the way, because you get a ferry to Capri or to Iskia. So it's just outside Naples. So actually we went there for our honeymoon, went to Naples in the Amalfi coast. And I read this book then. So it stuck in my mind because it was set in this place. And the book is the Talented Mr. Ripley by Patricia Highsmith.

[Tabby]

You know what, that is a truly exquisite choice. Good for you.

[Dominic]

Oh, thank you.

[Tabby]

Good work.

[Dominic]

That's kind. So you've obviously read it. I have, I'm guessing. So for people who don't know, it's published in 1955. Patricia Highsmith, quite a strange woman, quite a dark woman, I think, with a very bleak view of human nature. She'd already published books like Strangers on a Train that made her name. But the talented Mr. Ripley is probably

[Tabby]

her best known book now, definitely because of that movie, because of the film

[Dominic]

and then the TV series. And she takes, she has a brilliant idea, which is basically, she takes this incredibly amoral, almost psychopathic central character, Tom Ripley, who is an everyman and he travels from the US to Italy and he basically insinuates himself into the lives of these incredibly rich, kind of playboy people. Rich Americans who are holidaying permanently. They're like a permanent gap year in southern Italy. And they're very cool and they've, they really do have the right yachting shoes and the right gear and stuff.

[Tabby]

They really do, yeah. Perfect. Like buffons. Yeah.

[Dominic]

He's very, at first, awkward nillities. He's not from a rich background, but he works, he copies them, he works his way into their sort of friendship group. There's one guy in particular, played by Jude Law in the film Dickie Greenleaf.

[Tabby]

Beautifully.

[Dominic]

Yeah. He's the ultimate kind of beautiful, posh rich boy, isn't he?

[Tabby]

There's an element, I think we discussed this very briefly in our Secret History episode that we did a while ago. I think that this was probably a big influence on the Secret History. The idea of someone from a different class trying to inveigle his way into what he considers to be the upper echelons of. Of society.

[Dominic]

Yeah, I think it's so. I think it's got links to a few books we've done on the show, actually. So the Secret History, the Great Gatsby. So the idea of the outsider coming in and trying to pretend to be something he's not. The. The American. The idea of reinvention, but also actually American Psycho. We're about to record an episode on American Psycho and in American Psycho, obviously the central character, you know, we are in a sense complicit in his crimes.

[Tabby]

I could not agree more. You're so that's what I've been thinking about kind of non stop for the last two days. That element of when you read books like this and you're like, ought I to be enjoying this? Ought I to feel ashamed? You know?

[Dominic]

And Tanis, Mr. Ripley, you want him to succeed, he's a hero.

[Tabby]

You do.

[Dominic]

But he goes through the book because he basically turns the spoiler alert. He starts killing people. And because he has to, he's driven to it because he's going to be found out as an imposter and whatnot. And you absolutely, you know, you are on his side, you're on his team even as you're appalled by what he's doing. I think that's a huge element of it, the sort of self reinvention, but also the location. You know, the Amalfi coast is. It's. It's real honeymoon territory. It's picture postcards. It's the sort of. They've got the sea, you've got the cliffs, you've got these little sort of Italian villages clinging to the side. It's drenched in the world of kind of 1950s Italy. So it's kind of ice creams and that kind of Italian.

[Tabby]

The birth of Pasta.

[Dominic]

Yeah. What is it like Carbonara, invented in 1978 or whatever. Exactly. So I think it's a wonderful book and if you haven't read it, you will definitely enjoy reading on holiday.

[Tabby]

That's an excellent selection.

[Dominic]

And what's yours? I bet you're Gonna go. You're gonna go really high brow and blow me out the water?

[Tabby]

I hate to do this to you, but I am. I'm afraid.

[Dominic]

Yeah, okay.

[Tabby]

Yeah. So you say that, you know, it has that. The setting. How you know, when you're. When you're reading on holiday, so often the setting can become totally intertwined with and associated with. With a book.

[Dominic]

Yes.

[Tabby]

So, for instance, Searcy, for me, I always think of, like, the sea and everything like that, obviously. But this book that I'm my next pick is very much intertwined with kind of the English countryside for me, because I would come here on holiday in the summers. And this is Emma by Jane Austen.

[Dominic]

Wow. You have gone highbrow.

[Tabby]

I have gone highbrow. I just want to show everybody the real intellectual is on this podcast. Okay, so it's written between January 1814 and March 1815, after she'd written Jane Austen, had written Mansfield park, and then it's published in December 1815. And it's set basically at the same time, like the 1810s.

[Dominic]

Yeah.

[Tabby]

And it's set in an imagined village called Highbury in Surrey. And it follows this heroine, Emma, over the course of roughly a year as she kind of maneuvers herself through the society of that wonderful kind of Jane Austen world. You know, everyone's drinking tea and going to balls, and the stakes aren't that high, and yet they are so. And it's wonderfully bitchy and witty. And the other thing is, much of the novel actually unfolds, you know, on walks in the English countryside and garden parties and kind of picnics and strawberry picking. Like, there's this famous trip to Box Hill.

[Dominic]

I was about to say Box Hill.

[Tabby]

Yeah, exactly. It's this kind of warm pastoral setting, which felt so appropriate to reading it on these trips to the English countryside. Stay with my aunt and my uncle, and it's very, very funny. And Emma herself is a very polarizing heroine. And when the book was published, she divided opinion. Some people loathed her and therefore couldn't get behind the book. And some people really liked her. And Jane Austen herself said, I'm creating a heroine who no one but myself will much like, because she is very flawed. She's petulant, she's childish, she's spoiled. She jumps to conclusions that she ought not to. She can be quite harsh with people, quite judgmental. But she is so amusing. And for some reason, I don't know, I have always rooted for her. And the dialogue is sparkly and witty. I was just obsessed with. I think I used to honestly dress up. I used to kind of get my mom's son hats and try to turn them into bonnets and stuff.

[Josephine Quinn]

Right. Oh.

[Tabby]

And yeah, it's. And it's a very easy read as well. It's, it's, you know, the plot's fairly simplistic, and yet you're kind of hooked with every page. You want to know what happens next. You want to know whether Emma will succeed in trying to set everyone in Highbury up. Essentially, will she herself find love? It's very rewarding. It's very rewarding in literary terms.

[Dominic]

It's very sophisticated because basically, there's such an irony between what, you know, it's one of the great examples in literature of. Emma sees everything one way.

[Tabby]

Exactly.

[Dominic]

You know, she plans everybody's future and she judges everybody's character, and she's totally, utterly wrong. And I can't think of many examples before that in literature of a heroine, you know, somebody with whom we're invited to kind of sympathize. We see the world through her eyes, but about two thirds of the way through, it dawns on us that she's utterly mistaken about everything. The story is her realizing how wrong she was.

[Tabby]

Yeah. And kind of growing up. And even though she's wrong, you still want her to be happy. And she feels real guilt and remorse as well. And it's this wonderful. Jane Austen has this wonderful way of voicing a character without you actively always being in her head. So you get a very strong sense of her from the outside with this slightly satirical, knowing voice guiding you through it all. One of my favorite books ever, I think, by one of my favorite authors. So I would say it's a fantastic summer read.

[Dominic]

Okay, brilliant. So let's go darker with the next one.

[Tabby]

Always you bringing us down from our highs.

[Dominic]

Yeah. Well, this book should appeal to you, Tabby, because I know that you like, you love visiting, like, historical sites on holiday.

[Tabby]

Oh, yeah. I have a real weakness.

[Dominic]

You probably do it more than I do.

[Tabby]

I think I probably do.

[Dominic]

If there's some, like, crumbling monastery or something, you're absolutely there.

[Tabby]

I made my fiance drive me to Whan Smithy for a bank holiday, and

[Dominic]

what do you think of it?

[Tabby]

I loved it.

[Dominic]

I.

[Tabby]

People always say, oh, it's so disappointing. I didn't. It's so. Places like that, there's ancient sites, you know, old ruins. So full of possibility.

[Dominic]

Okay, well, I, I, I thought it was.

[Tabby]

I know.

[Dominic]

It's a massive trudge from the car park.

[Tabby]

No, it is a massive trudge from the Car park. But if you're, you know, vigorous and spry.

[Dominic]

Yeah, no challenge, then you don't know. Well, I didn't find a challenge, just find it boring also. Okay, so that's Waylon Smithy. The possibility of advertising from them is now well and truly disappeared. So you might. Some people here might be thinking, I'd love to go to the monastery of Samichele and Piedmont.

[Tabby]

Or, you know, it's amazing you took the word straight out of my mouth.

[Dominic]

Or they may be thinking, do you know what, it's good. But there are better monasteries in Germany. And if I was going to film, if I was going to make a film based on Italian monastery, I'd probably shoot it in Germany. If you're one of those people, you're laughing because the book I'm about to choose is the Name of the Rose by Umberto Echo. So it's another mystery. I make no apology for that because I love who Done It.

[Tabby]

And for holiday. Yeah, nothing.

[Dominic]

Yeah, of course.

[Tabby]

Yeah, of course.

[Dominic]

For holiday reading. Who Done it or A Mystery, you absolutely need it. So Umberto Ecker wrote this book and published it in 1980 and it was a truly gigantic worldwide hit, won lots of awards. And then there was a film of it made in 1986. It is set in 132097 in an unnamed monastery in northern Italy. And heroes, they're sort of Holmes and Watson duo. They're a monk called William of Baskerville. There's literary Nod and his sort of apprentice or whatever, or his novice, who's called, I think, Adso of Milk. And there's an abbey Milk in. And in the film they're Sean Connery and Christian Slater. And they arrive and there is a series of crimes, murders at the monastery. Monks are dying and they have blackened fingers and blackened tongues and we don't know why. And Umberto Eco, who was a professor of kind of semiotics in Italy and absolutely steeped in history and literature. This whole book is drenched in, first of all, it's drenched in 14th century history. So the rivalry between the Franciscans and the Dominicans, between the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope. The papacy is an avenue, not Rome at this point. There's loads of the kind of political background and whatnot, and they're sort of ecclesiastical politics, which might make it sound a bit dry, but also the actual whodunit element is. Is riveting. It's narrated by the young Christian Slater character himself. For people who are interested in literature. It is also a book about books. It's A very postmodern book. There are lots of. In jokes, the William of Baskerville is obviously a Sherlock Holmes in joke.

[Tabby]

It's like a literary treasure hunt.

[Dominic]

Almost totally is.

[Tabby]

I don't think I got that when I read it because I was a teenager. I think your experience of reading it later in life would have been so much richer than mine because I wasn't aware of all of these.

[Dominic]

So I've read it twice. I read it most recently and really picked up on all this. So, for example, one of the big characters is modeled on another monk. He's the librarian. He's modeled on the Argentine writer Jorge Luis Borges.

[Tabby]

Is he really?

[Dominic]

And the library, he's called Jorge of Burgos. The library that's at the center of the monastery and is the center of the story. This secret library is based on the libraries that Borghes wrote about. And for example, in the short story the Library Hybrid Babel. So there's loads of. In jokes and stuff, but you don't. I mean, even beyond that. So I first read this as a. On another family holiday, right? Another package holiday to like Greece or something.

[Tabby]

Gotta stop doing this to yourself. Having these sort of like teenage awakenings.

[Dominic]

Well, wait, get this, right? So you want like a teenage awakening. So I led. I read this book and I. And there were sections in Latin. And at the time, because you don't realize, you don't know why, you sort of skip over these. Obviously, because no one can really, really read Latin.

[Tabby]

Yeah, it's like the songs in Lord of the Rings.

[Dominic]

Well, some people read the songs, some people don't. And that's poor. Or the. Or the Hamilton sections in east of Eden. Anyway, there's the bits.

[Tabby]

And the Internet is coming after you again.

[Dominic]

I know. Again, I'm just doing it to provoke them. And when I was reading it at the time, I thought, well, it's kind of obvious what's happening. These are like sex scenes or stuff that Adso, our narrator, is embarrassed by. And then a few years later, I decided I was at home with my parents. We decided to watch the film of the Name of the Rose. And I'd forgotten about this element of it. And I was probably then about like 13 or 14. And I remember watching this film with my parents and then such a poor decision. There's this peasant girl who comes in, like the Christian SATA finds her in the kitchen. He finds this peasant girl. She's absolutely. She's extremely good looking and good. He disrupts, he disrobes this peasant girl and this was the first time I'd ever seen a scene like this on tv. But the worst thing was watching it with my parents.

[Tabby]

That's actually one of the most.

[Dominic]

It's mortifying.

[Tabby]

I had that love, actually, when I was young. Oh, really good.

[Dominic]

I mean, insanely, I had that with Basic Instinct.

[Tabby]

Oh, my God. You want Basic Instinct with your parents.

[Dominic]

I know, Mad.

[Tabby]

That's just inviting family drama.

[Dominic]

It so is. Anyway, so that was a traumatic experience. However, the Name of the Rose is great.

[Tabby]

Back to the book.

[Dominic]

We'll definitely have to do it on the show, so that will give me the opportunity to tell this anecdote again.

[Tabby]

Oh, good. Yeah, your Hilary Martel story.

[Dominic]

Well, I'll work on it and it'll be better, it'll be more. I'll embellish it. Yeah. So Name of the Rose. Brilliant. And now Tabby, your final choice.

[Tabby]

Yeah, so my final choice. I'm going to take us even further back. So I'm going to take us back to the late to late 5th century Britain, because my final pick would be the Winter King by Bernard Cornwell. And this is the first book of his Warlord Chronicles, which is a historical, I suppose, fairly, you know, supposedly realistic retelling of the King Arthur story.

[Dominic]

Yeah.

[Tabby]

But it is not set in its traditional sort of medieval chivalric setting, which is, you know, when the King Arthur stories became popularized. It is set in the late fifth century Britain, as I say, approximately kind of 480 to 500 A.D. and it's after the Romans have withdrawn from Britain around 410 AD. And this is what we know as. It's kind of a nothing term, but we know as the Dark Ages and Britain has been is divided into competing kingdoms. This is kind of Bernard Cornwell speciality, isn't it? Because he also does the last kingdom and the Saxon invaders are pushing west and while all of this is happening, the old pagan religions. And there's an element of magical realism to this because you never really know if the magic in the book is real or if nothing's really happening. And. And it's just kind of the force of people's personalities because the old magic and the old pagan religions are dying because Christianity is on the rise and Christianity and the old pagan religions come into conflict. And Arthur is not a king in this book. He is merely a gifted warlord who has been given the future King of Britain, young Mordred, taken him to ward, essentially. And the setting is glorious. It is so believable and immersive. It's the Dark Ages, you know, brought to life because there are muddy battlefields, everyone stinks. You know, it's tribal kingdoms and monasteries, these rugged landscapes. Everything feels incredibly vivid. Arthur is the Arthur that you want him to be. If you love the King Arthur legend, which I know you do as well.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Yeah, I do.

[Tabby]

There's nothing disappointing about him. But our narrator is a guy called Dervil, and he's kind of a soldier who rises up alongside Arthur. And all the characters in it are extremely, wonderfully real and sort of believable because you have Arthur, you have Durfil Kadan, you have Merlin, who is.

[Dominic]

He's a druid, isn't he?

[Tabby]

Yeah, he's a far cry from the Merlin of, I don't know, mythology. He's this eccentric, enigmatic, slightly odd druid who's constantly talking about eating cheese. And it kind of catapults you between very dark, bloody realism and fantastical, epic, almost fantasy. And I remember, I think, some. One of our sort of earliest, actual, proper conversations on the Rest is History. And I said, I loved this book. And I remember you like, I love that book. And I'd never really come across anyone else. I was so annoyed that it wasn't his big hit because I loved it so much. And I know I always say this with so many books, but I really have gone back and read it many times.

[Dominic]

It was a foundational bonding moment. Tabby.

[Tabby]

Yeah, it was a foundational bonding moment of this show and I hope listeners are wiping away tears from their eyes. And it's just fantastic. It's so enjoyable. And I actually reread it last on a trip to. You say, like sort of old historical written on a trip to Hadrian's Wall. And the setting couldn't have been more perfect. You can stand on the wall and

[Dominic]

imagine, you know, I can so imagine you doing that. Yeah, that's so you to take it to.

[Tabby]

We're sobbing in the background.

[Dominic]

Not another one. Yeah. He was traumatized enough by the Maldives and now he's been forced to go to hatred.

[Tabby]

As well as Wayland Smithy.

[Pharmaceutical Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Dominic]

And Waylon Smithy. Oh, my God.

[Tabby]

I know.

[Dominic]

So, yeah, I agree with you, actually. So I've read quite a lot of the Bernard Cornwell's books, never the Sharp books, but I've read the Last Kingdom and I think these are in a different league. There was an ITV version adaptation which I refused to watch because I thought the trailer made it look rubbish. I agree.

[Tabby]

Don't even talk to me about that. The trailer condemned it for me.

[Dominic]

Okay. But I think you're right, actually, that Bernard Cornwell's books are quite sort of earthy. They're quite earthy, aren't they? They're quite so. They're very. They're quite. There's a grittiness to them. They're very readable, but they're kind of. They are unsentimental, I think.

[Tabby]

Yeah. So I think. Have you ever watched Vikings, the historical.

[Dominic]

Yeah, of course.

[Tabby]

Yeah. So I always think that style of shooting, that style is what they should do the Winter. They should do with the Winter King. Yeah, it's kind of, you know, d' oeuvres were saying how smelly he is and. And it's actually quite romantic, like they do. He does Guinevere so well.

[Dominic]

So isn't this one of the interesting things? I mean, there's actually. There's a lot to talk about with this. We should do this on the show.

[Tabby]

Yeah.

[Dominic]

So with the Winter King, Guinevere and Lancelot are kind of horrible, aren't they? Isn't that the point of them?

[Tabby]

Yeah. Guinevere is more complex than that, though, because she sort of comes good. But, yes, Lancelot is an antagonist.

[Dominic]

Yes.

[Tabby]

And commits, you know, terrible crimes against King Arthur and d'. Urville.

[Dominic]

He's arrogant and he's.

[Tabby]

He's a Frank.

[Dominic]

He's a Frank, that's right.

[Tabby]

He's always brushing his hair, his long, luscious hair, because, you know, he's, you know, in the myth, it's, you know, beautiful, handsome Sir Lancelot. He's not chivalrous, you know, chivalrous at all.

[Dominic]

He's a massive show pony. But the other thing that I was going to say was why I think your analogy with the Vikings TV series is good is because in the Vikings TV series, there is a kind of slight magical, realist element. There's that weird character, Flocky, who's like.

[Mary Beard]

Yes.

[Dominic]

Like, I don't know, communing with the gods. Yeah, exactly.

[Tabby]

And, you know, in. In Vikings, you. He'll turn around and see a raven and you think, oh, is that Odin in this? You think, oh, is. Is this cauldron that they have to dig up to save Britain and the pagan religions, you know, is that going to save them? Does that save them? Or is that just kind of a lucky coincidence?

[Dominic]

You know, that's the second book, isn't it?

[Tabby]

The Battle of Baden.

[Dominic]

Yeah, all good. They go to the second book. They go to get this cauldron. Anglesey.

[Tabby]

Yeah.

[Dominic]

And actually, Anglesey is where I've been spending lots of my time because, you know, I'm doing this Welsh walk with my mates.

[Tabby]

I do indeed. Yeah. Your very own odyssey.

[Dominic]

We're walking around the coast of Wales and we've got to Anglesey. And it's gutting because at that point, you have to stop and to finish the walk, you've got to walk around the whole coast of Anglesey.

[Mary Beard]

Yeah.

[Dominic]

And a lot of angles.

[Tabby]

You think you're done?

[Dominic]

Yeah, there's nothing there.

[Tabby]

Worry not. There are about 20 more pubs to conquer. We should ask Nicole if we can. If we can do this book in Anglesey.

[Dominic]

Wow, that would be amazing. Also, I could knock off some of the walk, which.

[Tabby]

Yeah, brilliant.

[Dominic]

You can only choose one. You can choose one to recommend to people. Of your three books, which is it?

[Tabby]

Okay, so we're going on holiday. Us, the whole production team, we're going on holiday to Anglesey. Which book are we taking?

[Dominic]

Yeah.

[Tabby]

Okay. Okay. I can only take one. So tough.

[Dominic]

You've only got three to choose from. Or you could choose one of mine if you want.

[Tabby]

Really? Can I. I'm not gonna.

[Dominic]

Okay.

[Tabby]

I'm actually gonna go with. Because just speaking about it, it's probably because it was last on the list and I was so animated by it. I'm gonna go with the Winter King.

[Dominic]

I just want to ask you one question, see if I get an honest answer. How many times have you read that book?

[Tabby]

Probably four.

[Dominic]

That's a lot. I think that's a lot.

[Tabby]

But that's not. That's like. That's the whole series. That's the three books.

[Josephine Quinn]

Wow.

[Dominic]

Okay, So I can choose one. And I'm going to choose the Name of the Rose.

[Tabby]

Nice. Okay.

[Dominic]

Yeah, Because I think it's got. I think you can read it purely as a whodunit. It's because you can read it on so many different levels and it opens the way to so many other books. And it's also longer.

[Tabby]

So you want our listeners to suffer. Yeah.

[Dominic]

No, because Agatha Christie, you'd be done and dusted in two days. The Name of the Rose. Could you get a week out of it?

[Tabby]

Yeah, it's true. The Winter King's like. It's over 400 pages, so plenty of reading to do. So coming up, we have my brilliant friend. So we're back to Italy. Brave New World. For Whom the Bell Tolls. We're in Spain.

[Dominic]

Spain.

[Tabby]

Rebecca. We're in Cornwall. Lolita.

[Dominic]

American road trip. Perfect for an American road trip.

[Tabby]

Yeah. Fun for all the family. Lord of the Flies. A month in the country with which we started this American Psycho. So we're New York.

[Dominic]

I guess it's not really a holiday read.

[Tabby]

It's not a holiday read. I don't like reading before I go to sleep at night. Jane Eyre. Fantastic. Goldfinger. The Bell Jar. White Nights. The Shining. So we're in a creepy hotel, things fall apart. Master and Commander. To Kill A Mockingbird. Money. So you've got a great anecdote about money.

[Dominic]

Yeah.

[Tabby]

Tinker, Tailor, Soldier Spy, Tess of the d', Urbervilles, Dune, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone and Norwegian Wood. And that brings us to the end of the year and then we're starting January with a real bang. But I'm not going to spoil it yet.

[Dominic]

So much reading. Do you know I'm taking American Psycho on holiday?

[Tabby]

Are you? Oh, that's depressing.

[Dominic]

Which is. That's my. That's my summer reading on that Bombshell Tabby. Have a very nice summer and have a nice holiday.

[Tabby]

Dominic. Have a wonderful time on holiday. You're about to. You're off in the blink of an eye.

[Dominic]

Yeah, I am. So everybody who's listening, thank you for supporting the show and have a wonderful summer. Read loads of books and recommend books to us and we'll hopefully do them on the book club.

[Tabby]

Thanks for listening. Bye.

[Josephine Quinn]

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[Mary Beard]

I'm Mary Beard. And I'm Josephine Quinn. At the Rest Is Fest this September, we're putting on a show that can only be described as an iconoclastic romp through the ancient world. We're talking about leaders behaving badly, emperors putting their horses in charge, cities built by asylum seekers and empires getting their comeuppance. There will be some proper myth busting, but we'll also be asking why these myths matter even when we know they're wrong. So if you love your ancient history and you're free on 9-3-6, get your ticket now and join us at London South Bank Centre. Tickets are on sale now. Just visit southbankcentre.co.uk that's southbankcentre.co.uk.com.