← The Book Lisp with Jon Ryan & Sarah Colonna
The Book Lisp with Jon Ryan & Sarah Colonna
“Kill For Me, Kill For You” Full Discussion
00:50:38
It's Week 4 of your June Book Lisp, which means it’s time for Jon & Sarah to discuss this month's read, “Kill for Me, Kill for You” by Steve Cavanagh. Jon & Sarah discuss the many twists that made this book so fun to read. Jon picked up on a couple hints that Sarah missed. Is Amanda unhinged, justified, or both? Should she feel peace at the end? Jon shocks Sarah with his rating. Plus, we find out the UK version had a different twist, and much more. Enjoy!
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Sarah Colonna.
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B
And I'm John Ryan.
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A
And you're listening to the Book List. The Book List.
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B
The Book Lisp.
- [00:09]
A
Oh, that's right. You're listening to the Book Lisp. Hello and welcome to the Book Lisp with John Ryan and Sarah Colonna. Hey, John.
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B
Hello. How are you?
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A
I'm great. It's good to see you. You were gone to Portland for a couple days and then you just got back this morning.
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B
It was a quick two days and I'm very tired.
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A
I know. He. John, actually. Listen, Book List spinners, you need to know how dedicated he is to this podcast. Okay. He changed his flight to get home early. So this is a Thursday that we're recording the 18th, which is a little earlier than normal, but we have a wedding that we're going to this weekend in Palm Springs. And John got on a very early flight this morning to get back because he realized he. We need to record before the Canada World cup game, which is 3pm as
- [01:04]
B
the pickles game last night and we won. So I had to have a beer with the coach and the dugout. So I was there until like 11 and then I had to wake up at 4am so it's, I mean, it's just been a lot now. But now we have the Canada life
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A
of a show girl, baby.
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B
Canada game in two hours, baby.
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A
I know. I, it's, it's. I always hate talking about sports on a podcast that we're recording before we know the end result. But just because it's like by the time everyone listens to this, either Canada will have won or not won, lost or tied. Right? They did tie last time. Would you like to explain to our book listeners who are not necessarily World Cuppers or soccer knowledge, knowledgeable in soccer, why it can end in a tie or that it can and end a tie. This is mostly for me because these
- [01:54]
B
aren't knockout rounds yet. So you play, there's four teams in each pool and you play each team one time. So there's three games. So after 90 minutes plus stoppage time, the game's over. If it's a draw, then we get to the knockout rounds. Then it goes to two 15 minute overtime halves. If it's still tight after that, then they go to a shootout with penalty kicks. Okay, so right now we're still in the group stage.
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A
And when does it go to the knockout rounds?
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B
After three games. So after, after about next Wednesday, the 24th, we'll know if Canada made it to the, to the next round of 32 right now there's 48 and it goes down to 32. Then it's just like any other tournament. Whereas you lose, you. You go home.
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A
Now is the U.S. how they're. They've gotten points already, right too.
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B
They've already. Yeah, they got a big win and they won by three, which is really good because the top two teams in each bracket or each pool make it on, plus the top 12 third place teams. So really, if you have a win, you probably are going to move on.
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A
Okay.
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B
Most likely.
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A
So this is also an educational sports podcast. However, we have a lot to talk about today and that is because we are doing the full review of my June pick, Kill for Me, Kill for your by Steve Kavanaugh after On a Quiet street maybe or possibly tied with as my favorite pick of mine. It's also because I can't remember all my picks right now.
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B
Yeah, I know. I write them down.
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A
I mean I have them all. By the way, we have a Facebook group called the Book List Spinners and there's a feature tab and it has, I start. It starts with the most current read and then it goes down. But it's archived all the way back from the first book we've ever read. So you can go on the features tab, expand it and you can see what we've done along with our Patreon short stories. Our Patreon short stories are, are so fun. We had a really, really fun one. This one, the 15th, it had it just. It was the 15th of this month. That's we record them on the 15th of every month and they're always just a quick, a very quick read. I think it was 39 pages and usually free on your Kindle. So if you do that. But I suggest joining Patreon, we discover a lot of authors that way and we have just a really fun video Patreon where we dissect the short story. But then it also just like this podcast leads to other stories. And then on the 5th and the 25th we also do video podcasts on there. It's only $5 a month. So if you want to give us a little, a little follow on the Patreon, it's a good time over there. And I just added a date in next week. Very bold move. July 2nd in Irvine at the Irvine Improv, which is a fantastic club if you happen to be an Orange county book listener. Orange County, California. Or if you happen to be in or county or near Orange county or maybe you're coming here for the 4th of July and you Go. What's there? Colon is performing at the Irvine Improv. And you say it in that voice. Come see me at The Irvine Improv. July 2nd. See me at Brad Garrett's comedy club at the MGM for an entire week, August 3rd through the 9th. I will be honing an hour special set, I believe at that during that week, September 24th through the 26th at Batavia, Illinois at the Comedy Vault. All of that's on sarahcolona.com follow us on the book list on Instagram. And yeah, this is our full review. There's five Mondays this month, so next Monday we're just going to do a random, quick, little fun podcast. You know, don't miss it. Maybe, just maybe that week I'll announce my August pick. Maybe I'll do that just to give you guys a little extra something something for the bonus Monday in June. And then also for July, John Ryan
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B
has picked Summer Sisters by Judy Blume.
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A
Very excited for that one. That's going to be a great summer read. John has a lot of pressure on him to pick the ultimate summer read, and I believe we're all going to really enjoy that. If you've already read it, it's going to be a fun one to reread with us. I actually haven't read it, but I love me some Judy Bloom. Yeah.
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B
Yeah, I think it's from like 98.
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A
She's the reason I accepted my freckles. Is that right? Freckle juice? Yeah.
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B
Oh, that's right.
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A
Yeah. I used to have a lot more freckles that will.
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B
That one will not make the book lisp, but yeah.
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A
Why not?
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B
Because we don't read kids books on here.
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A
Oh, that might get weird if we did. Might be. Or just be dumb. It would just be. Anyway, okay, let's talk about Kill for Me, Kill for you by Steve Kavanaugh. I loved it. I. I just. I did not see the. The first twist. Now for, to recap the book, we've got a woman who is hunting down a man that she is certain is the reason her is the man that kidnapped and killed her daughter. Her daughter, William Crone. And that is Amanda. She's hunting him down. She's been hunting him down. And shortly after he did that, her husband also killed himself because he felt guilty for the daughter Jess being taken and killed. So it's a little dark. We know that. And then she's going to a trauma group and she meets somebody named Wendy. And Wendy basically says that she has a similar. Well, she doesn't say she has a Similar story, but she says that her daughter was murdered and she can't handle it, blah, blah, blah. They bond, they go to a bar, they come up with this. I'm gonna kill the guy that killed your daughter, and you're gonna kill the guy that killed mine, period. That's gonna be our deal. And it's therefore the kill for me, kill for you. And. And then we also start following a story about a woman named Ruth who's attacked in her home. But she survives. The killer runs off. We find out later because the. Someone in. In the neighborhood had a med. Medical emergency, so police sirens scared him off and he turned. He's a serial killer. But she survived and she's flipping traumatized as. As one would imagine. So that's what. That's the story. And Ruth, who is the person who was traumatized but survived and attacked in her home at one point in the book, kind of later in than I would have expected a twist like this, but in a good way. Cause while you're reading it, you're, you know, the kill for me, kill for you is clearly Amanda. And at the time they're calling her Wendy. And then also then she thinks her name's really Naomi because then she thinks Wendy is an alias and she finds her real name, Naomi in this, like, file that. That. That she had on her desk when she went snooping to find out the story of Naomi's daughter Amanda. When she went. They were hanging out one night at her house, got drunk. And then the next morning she snooped around and she found the articles about Wendy's daughter who disappeared. And her name was NA And.
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B
Yes. And she claimed that her daughter was being. Having sex, being raped by her high school teacher, and then their high school teacher killed her, Right?
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A
Yes. And so it was a claim. Yes. And so these. The crimes weren't the same that these women went through, but they were similar in the sense that it was a creepy man preying on a younger girl and blocked. Okay, so we're. I was like, where is this story about Ruth tying in? Because we've already got the kill for me. Kill for you, Right? We've already got the two girl. The wet. The two women. So I wasn't sure what was happening, but I was fascinated by it. And then at. At. I don't know what percentage of the book, because I was reading.
- [09:47]
B
It's pretty late. It's like 75 of the way in.
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A
Is it that late? Yeah, it's pretty late. It. Ruth is taught. Ruth is. They were referring to something About a story about Ruth. And, like, the end of that chapter talks about who was president and what year it was. And it was like, bush.
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B
It was 2007. So she was like. She's kind of talking like, oh, this idiot just. He's golfing now. He's, like, gonna address the country. That's like, blah, blah. And then she said it was something addressed as 2007.
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A
Right.
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B
Very next chapter picks up. So then you realize that they're on different timelines here.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And very next chapter picks up, and they say something about 2018. So all of a sudden.
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A
And the president's Trump. Yeah. And you're like, wait, what? I mean, I was. I. I obviously knew that meant something. So I'm highlighting it right away, and I'm just going. I didn't. So Ruth is living in the 2007 story, and Amanda and Wendy are living in the 2018 story.
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B
The interesting thing is that the one thing that connects the two stories are the two detectives.
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A
Yes. So there's two detectives.
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B
And Hernandez.
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A
Pharaoh and Hernandez. Detective Farrow's the one that has been looking for William Crone, the one that killed or looking to nail William Crone, the one that killed Amanda's daughter. Because he know. He believes he did it, too. He knows he did it, but there was just not enough evidence. He knows that he's done this before. He's a gross person. All the things. Gross person. But. Yeah. Pig. And. And then he's also called to the home of Ruth when. So he's a. You know, they're obviously in the same area. A lot of stories about Detective Farrell having back pain, a lot of references.
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B
When I listened to it back, I thought that that's where they were trying to give a hint that they are in different years, that they're 11 years apart. Because at the very start, they talk about how he has some back pain. And then I thought, the first time I read, then I was like, oh, because then there's the back pain.
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A
Was.
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B
They're doing so much attention to the back pain, which there was no part of the story. And then later on, it says his back is, like, worse. When we don't know yet. That we're going back and forth.
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A
I didn't even catch that because I was like, what is the point of this back pain? Yeah. And that's what it was when they
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B
talked about it being worse. That was. That was the M.O. that was 2017 or 2018, as opposed
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A
to 11 years later.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Oh, well, I'm glad that you picked up on that, because I did not. I, I just kept thinking, where did. Why didn't this ever go anywhere? And basically it was like aging him and telling you that his. He's been living with this pain that got chronic and, and lasted. See, this is why we, this is why John's the smart one in the family.
- [12:36]
B
Yeah. Right. When Ruth first meets him, she describes him as a, a younger looking man, like maybe in his early 40s with blonde hair. And I think there might have been some references where he's clearly a little bit older in 2018.
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A
I tell you what. So I missed. I missed. I missed all of that. Missed it all. Not missed it. I mean, I, But I didn't. I never went. Oh. These were little hints along the way that this was a different timeline.
- [13:04]
B
Listening back to the second time, that's the only time I really picked up on any kind of hints about the, the different years. But because when you're lit, I caught onto it there was going to be different timelines. Like, I'm not bragging because it's like the first time in any of your novels I ever caught on to anything. So I'm not bragging on this. Complete fluke. But at some point you're like, they're telling two totally different stories. And then you're like, after a year, like, as you said, like 60, 70 of the book, you're like, somehow these have to connect. Like, somehow these have to run into each other. And then, you know, the year thing is how it did.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So basically find out that Ruth, Ruth has been like having people killed for 11 years.
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A
Yeah. So we find out that Ruth is Wendy. So she goes to trauma groups, she befriends people, and then she tries to either. I, I mean, I. She's tried to do this before. Right. She tried to do it with someone else. And then, and then. And she, I think what she met. Because she met Billy before, quote, unquote. Billy.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And. And so she's in these trauma groups and then. And. But it turns out, so like she has. She's Wendy. She's. She's tricking Amanda into, into believing she's like, I'm going to kill that William Crone guy and then you're going to kill this guy for me.
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B
And it is funny though, at first, you know, they're like hanging out a little bit. Amanda brought it up first.
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A
Yes.
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B
Do you think we should kill them together? And she's like, no, no, why don't we kill for each other? So, you know, we have it. If, If Krone ends up dead, everyone's going to be looking for Amanda and the same way around with blue eyes and her. So she says if we're in, like, around a bunch of people, like in our group or something, then no one will put it on me if I have a good alibi.
- [14:54]
A
Right? But she's not calling him blue eyes because it's not who she's. She's killing anyone with blue eyes. Now, to the guy that attacked her, had these blue eyes and called her sweetheart. Sweetheart. She's had a confusion.
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B
That's all she seemed to be all she was going on and just killing people that had blue eyes and had a similar voice. They even said, like, so many of the people that she was killing or attempting to kill all looked exactly alike.
- [15:18]
A
Yes. So that's how Amanda starts putting it together towards the end that, like, this woman is Ruth and who she. And what she's done. Because she's been killing for years, ever since she was attacked. Because what happened was first her. First her and her husband go. She's afraid to leave the house. Who wouldn't be? I mean, she's afraid to go to the house. Who wouldn't be afraid of it? So they go stay in this hotel for a really long time. She thinks she sees the guy that attacked her. She's like, he's, like, staring at her, cutting a steak. He's acted psychotic. And. And you're. While you're reading it, you're like, is it him or is she imagining it? I'm not sure. And so she tells her husband, that's him. That's the guy who attacked me. And now he's. He's found us at this, and he's going to finish the job. So her husband goes and it kills him. Her husband, like, he goes and kills him.
- [16:07]
B
And it starts, like, stalk them down. Down a hallway at. At the hotel they're staying at and, like, beats them to death with, like, wine bottle, right?
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A
Yeah, because. Because the guy said, I hope your wife's okay. She seems like a real sweetheart. And that was like. That was his confirmation. He's like, oh, God, he called her sweetheart, just like the guy did when he attacked her. And. Yeah, yeah, beat. Kills him with a wine bottle. Gets him, you know, has to go get clothes, puts the do not disturb on the door, comes back, cleans the blood. Like, kind of professional for someone who just basically was like, I'm just gonna kill this guy because you attacked my wife. I mean, I don't blame him for wanting to kill the Guy. But I would have wanted a little more evidence.
- [16:47]
B
I want to tell people. I've watched Dateline. I think I've watched every episode ever made. If you're an employee at Walmart and someone comes in and buys bleach, garbage bags, gloves, duct tape and zip ties, and that's it, Fucking call the police, please. They're not doing gardening. They're going. Or they throw in a shovel, too. Someone throws in a shovel. Then it's like, just, yes, please call. Reach out.
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A
Reach out. See something. Say something, please. Because, yeah, that's what he does. He goes and gets that. Changes his clothes, does all the things. He kills her. He kills him. And so then, of course, they decide to. She. He tells her. He breaks down and tells her, and then they decide to. Because now she can feel safe. And then they decide to flee.
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B
That's when you really kind of like, almost like it feels like it was a good thing. Not. I don't say a good thing, but it feels like. What's the word I'm trying to say? Like he had it coming.
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A
Yes. Yes. It feels like vengeance that he deserves.
- [17:48]
B
Yes, thank you. Vengeance. And then that next day, Ruth is, like, walking around, she's like, oh, my God. I'm like, I'm free now. Like, I'm free of this. This awful. Like, being scared of seeing this guy. This guy coming after me all the time. And she's like, go get coffee. And she's acting like she's so great. And they come back and then basically they're like, that wasn't the right guy.
- [18:06]
A
Right? And he. They. They're watching the news, and the news is out, and they talk about who the person is that was found in the. That's murdered or missing, I think, at first, and then murdered. And then because of who he was, the. Like a lawyer, I think, or something, they talk about where he was the night that she was attacked. Not that they were suspecting, I forget. But she puts it all together and she's like, oh, my God, you killed the wrong person. And. And by the way, just real quick on their way to. To flee and go to this, like, peaceful little house that they went to. Doesn't turn out peaceful at all. There's a moment where they're in the train station and they pass Amanda. You remember that?
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B
Oh, really? No.
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A
Yeah. There's a moment in there where they're in the train station and she's fighting. I think she's between sort of freaking out, but. Because he. He. He takes her out of the hotel to leave. And, like, she went from a. I can't be in public to going through, like, Grand Central Station and doing all these things that I thought I was like, this is a little overwhelming. But I remember there was a moment that Amanda's in there, too, and she's. She's. She talks about how she's. It's like, in a separate chapter, but she talks about being a train station and seeing a. A couple and a man sort of walking this woman. So. And it was obviously talking about Ruth and.
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B
Right.
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A
Scott, her husband. So now Scott finds out that he killed the wrong person. He sicked his stomach, as you would be, and then he jumps out a window and kills himself.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So.
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B
And before he did that, he called 911 and said, come quick, my wife is not well. Not mentally well. Like, she's mentally ill. And then jumped out the window.
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A
Yes. He's trying to protect her at the end. He's basically trying to say. Because she's basically saying, like, whatever, it's fine. We're just gonna find him. Find the right one. Anyway, big deal. This guy was probably a bad guy. Turns out he was a bad guy or something. And the guy's like, what? So obviously. So now Ruth has been attacked. She's had a psychotic break. She thinks everyone with blue eyes is the guy that tried to kill her. And now her husband has killed himself in front of her. So she's not doing great. That's why she becomes Wendy and starts going to trauma groups and trying to. But she goes on a murdering spree because. Because he didn't kill the right person. She starts finding people that look like that guy and look like the guy that attacked her. And she's killed. And she's been killing. She's killed a handful of them.
- [20:29]
B
She did go to the mental. I don't know what you want to call it. Mental hospital.
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A
My mom was Funny Farm.
- [20:36]
B
Oh, boy.
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A
Not anymore. But.
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B
And I.
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A
But can you believe people used to say. Wasn't there, like a song or something where they said the Funny Farm? And you're like, wait a minute.
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B
I don't think.
- [20:50]
A
Yeah. Anyway. Things we don't say anymore. I know it's awful, but it's a. It was supposed to make everyone laugh. I hope it did. Sorry.
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B
No, I just. I've never heard that before.
- [21:02]
A
Oh, yeah. I don't. I don't. I don't. I hope it wasn't my mom. Now that I said it out loud, I feel like it's what people used to say. And thank God we know better now. Anyway. Go ahead, John. Call her. Go ahead.
- [21:18]
B
I had nothing. Go ahead. I was just. I was still talking about.
- [21:21]
A
Oh, how she went. She went to the mental. Yeah, she went to a mental institution. She had. She saw a psychiatrist. Luckily, we. We see that that doctor comes around later to help. But I gotta tell you something, John. As I was. As I was doing a little like, just writing down names and doing a little googling about the book, I came across something I didn't know happens that the UK version is very different than the US version. And why. And the reason I found out is because AI asked me which version I was reading. I was like, really? I want to know that. Yeah. And it said, it's completely different. And then I went to Goodreads and I saw that some people said the same thing. We're on Goodreads. The book Lisp. Follow us there. So differences. In the UK Version, Scott is alive. Unlike the US Version where Ruth's husband dies. The UK version reveals he survived his being thrown out the window. He jumped is. Is. Oh, maybe. And is alive and incarcerated in Sing Sing Prison. So he gets arrested. Obviously. They figure out that who. You know that he murdered the guy at the hotel. Amanda and Billy. So Billy is the guy that she hooks up with that is in another trauma group. And he says his wife was murdered and he loves Dolly Parton. And they go on a hunt to find Wendy.
- [22:56]
B
Yes.
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A
Right. They're looking for Wendy at the time. They don't know it's Ruth yet because of the fact that she tricked her into. She. The whole part. The whole part where she tricks. Wendy says, I did kill the guy that killed. That killed your daughter. Crone. Is that now you got to go kill the guy that killed my daughter. And. And then Amanda can't do it. She tries. She attacks him, but that she ends up like she can't do it and she leaves. And then, of course, that guy is still alive. And then she figures out that she's been tricked into trying to murder somebody when she finds out Crohn's alive. There's a lot of twists in this story, guys. If you didn't read this one, it's probably a little confusing for you right now, but Amanda and Billy. So Billy, it says in this that they. They track Ruth by. By visiting Scott in prison. Scott tells them about a friend named Jack who originally helped procure the fake identities for Ruth. But that person is in our story, says Jack provides Amanda with the final active list of aliases that Ruth is using because on the. In. In the book, she just talks to him on the phone. This guy. Right. And gets the aliases. And then instead of finding a weapon through alternate means, Ruth gets her gun directly from Jack in the UK version and UK version. But it says the core resolution holds steady with the US version, where both. Billy ultimately assassinates Wallace Crone, which. So that's the big. The biggest twist of all is when Billy and Amanda realize that Ruth has been murdering people that look alike, and they talk to her doctor and they're trying to track her down to keep her from doing this again. I. There's no part of me that ever thought that Billy was anybody but, like, a new friend that Amanda made in trauma. Did you. Did you think anything else?
- [24:48]
B
I thought there was something going on. I didn't know what, but I thought there was something more to his character than just, like, a Good Samaritan.
- [24:56]
A
Right. Yes, I guess I should say. I'm not trying to. To backpedal. I. I knew. I figured something was cut. Like, why was he so invested in this and why was he being so helpful and all that? But I didn't. I never thought that he was going to turn out to actually be Blue Eyes, because that was the biggest twist of all, as he ended up being Blue Eyes. So he actually used Amanda to help him hunt Ruth so that he could try to finish her off because he was tired of seeing that she kept killing people that looked just like him. And she. And he was obviously concerned that eventually she'd be able to actually identify him, and he wants her gone so that this can be over and people with blue Eyes will stop getting killed and he can slink back into the darkness. Well, that I didn't see comic.
- [25:42]
B
No, I did not either. That was a. No, that's a good twist.
- [25:46]
A
Yeah. Because they get. They. They tell Pharaoh that what they think Ruth is up to. They get the doctor coming. They get. They. They track her to a hotel where she's about to try to kill this family. A whole family.
- [25:57]
B
Yeah.
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A
Because the guy. Because they ran. She ran into them in an elevator, and the guy had blue eyes. And she's. And she starts panicking and thinking he's calling her sweetheart. And literally, she says, like, this is. When you see that this won't. Like, it's escalated over the years. Right. Her son psychosis, because she's like, I'm going to go into. I. She found out where he lived. She's like. It said, like family on the. On the. In this apartment building. It said like, the somethings instead of just a one name. So she knew that was their floor that they lived on. And she's like, I'm going to kill him. I'm. But first I'm going to kill his children and make him watch and then
- [26:33]
B
kill his wife right before I kill him. Yeah. She's like, really off the deep end by this point.
- [26:38]
A
And I'm like, yeah. And I know that you're. I know you had a psychotic break, and I know you went through something awful, but. But, you know, I. I don't just. Don't you just want to kill the guy that came after you instead of, you know, I'm going to kill children and make him watch. You're like, oh, my God. And when she first. When she. When she goes to that apartment, this is all. Towards the end when it's. When she goes to their apartment building, there's a security guy and she poses as someone that's bringing them flowers. And then the second the security guy turns his head, she attacks him. I thought she killed him. She didn't, luckily. And you're just like, what the fuck? This woman's lost her. And then she gets up to his floor and then they are. They're all there. And then Billy's there, and Billy's like. Billy's there before the cops. So Billy's gonna go up after her, and Amanda's down there tending to the. The security guard and calling the cops, and just everything's hitting the fan. And when he's up there and he says. And he confronts her in the hallway, and he's like, do you remember me, Amanda? Do you remember me, Ruth? And she's just, like, looking at him. And he takes out his contacts because he has brown eyes. He takes out his colored contacts and he has blue eyes. I was like, what the fuck,
- [27:57]
B
Billy?
- [27:58]
A
Mr. Blue Eyes. I mean, it was good. I thought that was crazy, and I didn't see it coming. I mean, Billy had been a nice guy all along. He likes Dolly Parton and.
- [28:12]
B
Sure. Why. Why do you think he needed Amanda to go along and do all this with him? He. He.
- [28:20]
A
He somehow needed her to help him help track Ruth. He needed someone to help. I don't. I guess. I don't know why. I mean, I feel like it was explained. I'm sure it was. Well, he says it. I mean, he. He said no.
- [28:38]
B
I know. He says then, like, he need, like, yeah, yeah, I thought. I was wondering, like, why he couldn't have done it himself, right?
- [28:45]
A
Because he.
- [28:45]
B
He already knew, like, when they're trying to figure out who it is. Like, he already knows, obviously. Like, he's like, I didn't need your
- [28:51]
A
help with that, but, yes, I'm gonna. He says, I want to thank you for all your help in finding Ruth. I want to return a favor. So I guess he was just having a hard time finding her. And he knew that Amanda would be able to find her. If you guys are screaming at your app right now because you know the answer and we somehow missed it or are being dumb about it. Sorry. But he. So he doesn't end up being able. He thinks he's going to finish off Ruth, but he's not able to. The doctor. The. They've already called the psychiatrist that knew her before. And so she comes. She sticks a needle in the arm, calms Ruth down. And Ruth is now in, like, psychiatric prison, but. And she'll never get out. We just. Detective Farrow's telling Amanda that later. Like, she'll never get out. We've got at least a. We at least have enough proof of a couple of the crimes. Maybe not all of them. Of them. Maybe not everyone. That with blue eyes that she killed is going to get justice, but at least most of them are. And the fact that she just tried to kill the Grangers, that whole family. So he doesn't end up killing her, but he ends up getting her put away. And they're probably not going to believe anything she says after that about him. Right? They're just going to. I mean.
- [30:13]
B
Right.
- [30:14]
A
Nobody's going to say any. I guess he slipped the contacts back in before he went back down. That part I missed. But it was. So after that, he gives her tickets. Gives Amanda tickets to a Dolly Parton concert that he says he's going to go to. And he doesn't go. And then he writes her a letter, drops it in her mailbox, and she. He says, I hope you enjoyed the concert. I'm just reading it to you guys. My apologies. I couldn't be there. As you will no doubt learn, I was otherwise engaged. I wanted to thank you for all your help in finding Ruth. I wanted to return the favor. I'm sorry I lied to you. I never had a wife, never mind one who was murdered. It was my hope you might forgive me. I already knew Ruth's real identity even before I met you. But I didn't want to draw attention to myself. There you go. I needed a buffer between me and the police. A person Dr. Barron would trust. That's the doctor that came to help. Someone to help Cover up a few things. It was better for me that I had someone with me for the ride. I would like you to burn this letter, if you don't mind, after reading it. But I want you to know that before Crone died. Okay, so that's a twist that we'll get back to in a second. He admitted to killing your little girl. I thought you deserved that closure. It's unlikely we'll meet again. Good luck and enjoy the rest of your life, sweetheart. So he's letting her know I'm the. I'm Blue Eyes. I'm the serial killer. And why he. Why he didn't go to the concert, why he was, quote, otherwise engaged was because he killed Krone for her. Okay, so there's like, give her an alibi and gave her an alibi by. Not by. By. Detective Arrow says when Detective Farrell comes up later and says, you know, I gotta ask where you were, because Crone turned up dead. And she's like, I was at a Dolly Parton concert. And so then you find out he'd given him an alibi and that Crone was beaten and tortured as. As deserved, it seems. And he got the truth out of him, probably with the torture part. And she now has closure on that person, like she had always said when she first believed he was dead. When Ruth lied to her and said he was dead, she had this sort of peace, just, you know, vengeance justice for her daughter and for her husband. And so now he wants to give her that peace, this Blue Eyes guy. But, I mean. But now. But now, you know, he's also a serial killer.
- [32:40]
B
Yeah.
- [32:41]
A
You know what I mean? Like, she just. And she just burns the letter and is like, I'm at peace, kind of. And I. I got it. I mean, I thought it was a great twist. And we like that this guy ended up giving her the closure. And he did. He got rid of the bad guy. But then you're like. But you're also a. He's also a bad guy, right?
- [33:03]
B
Bet. But Pharaoh knows. When she talks to Pharaoh at the end, you. You know that Pharaoh knows that Amanda killed someone, right?
- [33:14]
A
He knows that she killed. That The. The guy that she attacked the first time for. Can't think of his name right now. That. That when, quote, unquote, Wendy had her attack because that guy lived, but they ended up dying later from his injuries. So he does. He says something about DNA, and he's like, I guess. I guess it kind of let it go.
- [33:33]
B
He mentioned somebody, too. Yes, because she banged her knee that night, jumping the fence to kill that guy. It is. Is Amanda, like, is she a little deranged, too? Like, she's a little crazy too? Like, she was. She was like, obviously, I don't know how I'd react if someone murdered my child or anyone around me, but she was, like, stalking this guy. She has a record for stalking this guy, and she's like, going to stalk him and kill him.
- [34:03]
A
Yes.
- [34:05]
B
So she's out there, too.
- [34:08]
A
Yes. I mean, at the end of the day, what you really. What I found really interesting. And now that we can. We can just sort of just talk about our feelings about it, I feel like just be. I mean, that's what we do anyway. But it's just like so much to kind of get through to sort of to. To set up how we feel about it. But at the end of the day, even. Even at the end of the book, when he ends up killing Crone, that's another kill for me. Kill for you in a lot of ways, right? I mean, he. She doesn't kill Ruth, but she got Ruth put away for life. And, and so. And she didn't think. She didn't. She wasn't. She didn't think she could go through with killing the other guy at the beginning that ended up dying. And he was a bad guy. I guess they found, like, money and he was like a mob or, I don't know, laundering money or doing something, but he ended up dying later from his injuries. And then. So she. Because even when she was going after him, at first, she's like, I can't do this. This isn't the person that killed my child. Like, I'm. I'm only after the person that killed my child. I'm only after him and ruined my life, and my husband ended up taking his own. So there's a little bit of a. Like, a little bit of a difference in her. But at the same time, it's. It's. It's not that different. I mean, it's like still hunting somebody, but for the reason is like, you're like, yes. You're behind her because.
- [35:40]
B
Yeah.
- [35:41]
A
Especially since we get. I. I never thought it. That was my only wonder at the first was is it going to turn out it wasn't this guy? But the reason he got away with it all the time because he has his family with. And they were always able to cover it up. And even. And. And I believed it was him for sure. Crone. Because Farrell believed it. And Farrell is like the most reliable character in this book by far. Right. Because. Yeah. Because he's so. He. He's wanted justice for her for. Since, you know, 2007 or when or whatever it was not 2007. That's not right. But whenever it was. So he's wanted justice for her for a long time. And. And he's wanted justice for Ruth. He want. Because he wanted to find Blue Eyes all those times. And because of that, the way he ties into everything, as they say, him and Hernandez, because of that case going unsolved to the. To up to 2018, he's like, they always get a courtesy call for any kind of home invasion or this and that. So that's why he was at the one where Amanda attacked that guy. That's why he was there. Because at first I was like, why are they at this?
- [36:52]
B
Right.
- [36:52]
A
You know, there's a lot of cops. There's a. Like, it's not the same neighborhood. Why are they at this crime? But it's because they. They kind of explain that by saying he gets a courtesy call for anything like that. Okay, but this doesn't match any sort of evidence of our unsolved crimes that we're after. But little do you know that it was he. It was Amanda that went after that guy. Anyway, he ends up dying. So she does kill somebody.
- [37:16]
B
Yeah. I would say, like, if you. If you murder someone, don't go back to the scene of the crime the next day. Yeah, that was. It wasn't the smartest move. You accidentally murdered someone. And she kept on trying to, like.
- [37:29]
A
But she heard her knees leaving, fleeing. Right.
- [37:32]
B
No go. I thought. No, she heard it going in. She hit it on the. She hit it on the fence going into the backyard.
- [37:38]
A
Right.
- [37:39]
B
And then they said that he, Pharaoh, saw a woman, like, limping away and then got picked up by Billy in his Escalade, randomly being there because he was watching over it. So. Yeah, but I mean, every, every character in this book is a murderer except for the detectives.
- [37:57]
A
Yeah, that's a good point. Scott. Even Scott is a murderer. And, and, and what's interesting, I think, about this book is everyone's everyone and kind of including Pharaoh and Hernandez in the sense that they're always looking for justice for people, but legally. And, and he's wanted to get crone forever. So he doesn't. He just, like, I don't really give a shit that this guy's dead, but I thought you'd like to know that he's finally actually dead. And also, where were you? Yeah, and, and, and, and like you said, he also knows that she was the Reason the other guy died. But she knows he's like, he was a bad guy. He was going to die anyway. And guess I'm going to have to close the case on that one. Because he forgives her. Because he's probably put all this together and. But in. In. In everyone's effed up way of their murders, they're all seeking, like, vengeance on somebody that's doing something else bad. Even Blue Eyes, because he's seeking vengeance on Ruth, who's going around killing innocent people who look like him, you know, but also he just wants her out of the. Obviously gone.
- [39:15]
B
That's true.
- [39:16]
A
But it's all like.
- [39:17]
B
It's all like full circle. Everyone's trying to kill everybody.
- [39:20]
A
Yeah, it's like full circle. Weird, justific justification for everybody's shitty, terrible, awful behavior. And because even. Because Amanda's like you said, yeah, she's pretty unhinged. She comes across pretty unhinged at the beginning that she's on a subway thinking about just taking this guy out. But like you said, I don't know how I'd feel. I'd probably feel the same way. And if the cops can't get him, I'll go to prison, but the guy will be out of the world. Like, I. I understand. You understand her characters, you know, arc at the beginning, but. And then you understand it more when she goes after the first guy that Wendy. Wendy, quote, unquote, sends her after, and she's like, this isn't the one. This isn't my. My thing. But she feels like she's supposed to be doing something because Krone's gone and she's supposed to, quote, unquote, kill for you. So, yeah, you're right. I'm just babbling now. But all. All everyone's a murderer.
- [40:22]
B
And I'll say this about Amanda when she's like. When Ruth comes to her as Wendy and says, okay, Crohn's done. Now you gotta go kill this guy, like tonight. I want pretty solid proof that you went through with it. Not. Not USC today. Her fake website use today.
- [40:42]
A
Yes, I know. It's a. It's. By the way, she. That was one of the funny things when she went. Not funny things, but the crazy thing. When you find out how far Ruth went to pretend she was this person she knew Amanda would snoop. She had created fake websites, fake news stories about her daughter that had died so that she would believe her name was Naomi. Naomi. And she would believe that she needs to go kill this guy for her. And. But, yeah, I thought that too when she comes and says Crohn's dead. But there was something that she did. I. She. She noticed that he wasn't at the train station that morning where he usually is because she knew he's routine. Right. And. And Ruth had made sure he got picked up for something and made him look guilty for something like creeping around a school or something. And then it turned out he wasn't. So that's. But she made sure he wouldn't be somewhere that and so that she would believe he was dead.
- [41:39]
B
It's an elaborate setup.
- [41:40]
A
It was a very elaborate. Very elaborate. Ruth is completely unhinged. But you'd want her on your side. Like if I need to find, I don't know, information on someone a friend of mine is dating. I would have been. I would have hit up Ruth way before it hit up Detective Farrow. Yeah. You know, she seems.
- [42:00]
B
You really like to get dirt on people's not dirt. You like to get facts of people who are dating your friends.
- [42:07]
A
I do. It's the. For one of my friends is. Is she does the. A lot of the dating apps and so I immediately. I'll just look up when she gets someone's name and then if I can't find them, that's our first red flag because it should be pretty easy to find people at this point especially if they. If they're not on social media or something. Okay, but if you're telling me he like owns a business which one guy did. And he. He doesn't even have a LinkedIn. Come on.
- [42:34]
B
Yeah.
- [42:35]
A
And what
- [42:38]
B
a mortgage broker that could not be found. Mortgage brokers sing from the frickin rooftops at their mortgage brokers. That's all they do is like. They're all like real estate agents. They need to hustle all the time. And this guy wasn't even findable.
- [42:50]
A
Nah, girl.
- [42:51]
B
Ruth would have found him if he had blue eyes. So going back to the. The two timeline things where they. Where they try to throw you off with Ruth, Wendy, Naomi is when she gets attacked by blue eyes. Originally the doctor comes to her room and says I have bad news. You're like, you're going to survive but you're never going to be able to give birth.
- [43:14]
A
Right.
- [43:14]
B
And then when you fast forward she talks about her daughter Rebecca who was murdered by. Raped and murdered by her school teacher. You realize like okay, now it can't. That's what they throw you off with that.
- [43:26]
A
Right? They do. They throw you off with that because it's a made up story. But we don't know that yet. Yeah, and, and that's a good point. I forgot about that and kind of throw you off with that, but also give you the hints with the aging of Detective Farrell, like you said, that I didn't quite pick up on. I was like, why is this guy. Who gives a shit about this guy's back pain? Like, I mean, not that it, it didn't bother me at all. And I, and I know, I mean, I love when an author brings, you know, it's. I just kind of thought, all right, it's. You're letting us know he's a cop that's been at it for years. And yeah, he's, he's out there anyway with the back pain and it's just kind of painting the character. But little did I, little did I know it was, it was a big hint all along.
- [44:13]
B
Also, not that you can see visually see anyone, but I was just thinking, like, probably the least amount that anyone changes physically is from when you're like 42 to 50. I guess it's an 11 year gap. So say it's 41 to 52. You don't really change physically that much in that, that window, Right? A little bit. But like any other 10 year, like 18 to 28, you're like a different person. Obviously 8 to 18, you're a completely different person. But that's kind of the one window I could think about that was. Not a lot happens to you.
- [44:42]
A
That's true. Unless you get like some kind of facelift. I'm doing a facelift thing at him right now.
- [44:48]
B
I'm going to get Botox in my, in my forehead.
- [44:52]
A
You are?
- [44:53]
B
Yeah.
- [44:54]
A
Where? Like at the top one.
- [44:57]
B
Yeah. I don't get, I don't get those elevens. Really?
- [45:01]
A
No. You don't.
- [45:02]
B
Well, I do want to go like that, but they're not, they don't sit there. I don't, I don't think I really ever focus on anything long enough to do that. So I just, you know, people have like laugh lines or whatever, but I'm never really, like. I don't really have that much to focus on that I need to like squint that badly that I'm ever gonna get those lines. I'm good.
- [45:18]
A
You're like, I'm a retired football player.
- [45:20]
B
Yeah.
- [45:21]
A
I don't focus on anything like.
- [45:24]
B
Yeah, I'm good.
- [45:25]
A
You do that. You're going to get these. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, these lines. Okay. You can go to my guy. I can't get those. I can't get my forehead done because I have hooded eyelids and it bothers me.
- [45:37]
B
I do too, a bit, though.
- [45:39]
A
Well, you'll have to see how you like it because I did it once years ago and I was like. It made me feel like. I just. It made me feel so weird. I just didn't like it. And he did. Minimal amount. He's really good. And every time I go in, he's like, are you sure you don't want. Just a little bit? They're getting. And I'm like, I don't. I don't, don't. I can't. So I just do the alerts because I do focus on things.
- [45:59]
B
My dermatologist, last time I went in, I was like, I'm going to ask her about some Botox. And she walked into the room and it looked like someone just drew two eyes on an egg. She had so much Botox in her face. It was like. It was literally just looking at an egg. I was like, oh, never mind. I'm gonna ask someone else about this one.
- [46:18]
A
Yeah, you. That's a good. That's when, you know, I had. I had a similar experience once and. And she, she was like, you know what we can do? And I was like, no, I know what you can't do, which is touch my face.
- [46:29]
B
Yes.
- [46:30]
A
Anyway, not sure how we start talking about Botox.
- [46:32]
B
I don't know, but I'm looking through my notes and I. I mean, I'm. I'm. I think I've gotten everything out.
- [46:38]
A
You think you've gotten everything out? Do you feel like everyone was confused when I was describing. I mean, everyone read. I mean, most of y' all read it and if you didn't read it, I know some people didn't read it. That's why I kind of like go through the book. But that's when it's these twisty. I feel like I. Am I being confusing when I do that or.
- [46:54]
B
No, no. It kind of gets us all on the same page.
- [46:57]
A
Okay. Okay. I just like to give a little summary. Not even just for the non readers of the book, but just for some people. Read like I read so far ahead. I had to.
- [47:06]
B
Yeah.
- [47:07]
A
Reread this book like you.
- [47:08]
B
My biggest confusing thing about this podcast today was why the UK version is so much different.
- [47:15]
A
I know. I. I think that's. I wonder if anyone else read the UK version, like on accident. Because what I was reading it was someone talked about it on this, like this thriller thread on Reddit that I look at sometimes for book ideas. But I Went to it today after reading from the AI about the. About the different versions, because I don't always trust that AI is even. I don't even know if it's telling me the truth all the time. So I went and I found that. And, like, when I Googled it and then put Reddit and someone had read the UK version, and they were like, I was reading. I was reading a version on my Kindle and I downloaded an audiobook, and I. And for whatever reason, one of them was the other, and the other end, they didn't know, and they were like, why is the Scott.
- [48:01]
B
It would have been so funny if you had read one version. I'd read the other. And you're just like, you know, like, when they go and visit Scott in prison, I'm like, what the are you talking about? Scott's dead. He jumped out the window. And you'd be like, no, but he survived. Like, no, he didn't. It would have been so. Because we never talked about the book before, so it would have been so funny had we just both read the different book and try to talk about it like, we're talking about the same thing. It would have been so confusing for us. Wish I went back and done that. Would have been really entertaining.
- [48:27]
A
I almost want to do it with a book, but then I feel like it would just be a frustrating full review for everybody.
- [48:34]
B
It would have been hilarious.
- [48:36]
A
Yeah. I'm just making sure I didn't miss anything I wanted to talk about. About. Oh, I did think it was just always really funny. Wendy when she. Oh, Quinn is the guy that. That Amanda tries to kill but also kills. Right. Wendy had, like, such a specific plan. I remember, like, highlighting it while she. Because she's like, you know, you go to the shed, you hit him from behind, and you're like, what? She just had this whole plan about how he would go outside. I mean, she. Obviously. Because she was stalking him. And I just had a note that I liked the crossover stuff because Amanda passes Ruth and Scott at Grand Central, and we don't really realize that until later, but that was a hint, I suppose, for us. Okay. All right.
- [49:28]
B
Can you give your ranking?
- [49:31]
A
I'm giving her five out of five martinis. I'm giving her six out of five martinis. This book. I loved it. I loved it.
- [49:36]
B
Nine and a half. Nine and a half out of 12 years.
- [49:41]
A
What?
- [49:42]
B
I don't think it was your. Your second best book. I was. I. I would rank it down a little bit more. It's not a bad. It was not a bad book. I enjoyed it.
- [49:53]
A
Jesus Christ. I did not see that coming.
- [49:58]
B
That was the biggest twist, is that I gave it nine and a half.
- [50:00]
A
That's the biggest twist is I just. I thought I was gonna get. You were gonna give it a full quesadilla.
- [50:08]
B
It was really, really good.
- [50:11]
A
Nine and a half out of 12.
- [50:14]
B
Yep.
- [50:16]
A
Things are.
- [50:18]
B
But I will, you know. You know what's a 12 out of 12 right now? You know, it's a 12 out of 12 right Now. How badly I have to go to the bathroom.
- [50:24]
A
Okay. Thank you, guys for listening. We'll see you with your bonus Monday next week.
- [50:30]
B
Bye.
- [50:31]
A
Bye. The book list?
- [50:32]
B
The book lisp?
- [50:34]
A
The book list?
- [50:35]
B
The book lisp?
- [50:37]
A
The book lisp.