“Look Closer” by David Ellis - Full Discussion

Summary

The Book Lisp: “Look Closer” by David Ellis – Full Discussion

Podcast: The Book Lisp with Jon Ryan & Sarah Colonna
Episode Date: February 23, 2026
Hosts: Jon Ryan & Sarah Colonna

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Jon and Sarah dive deep (and hilariously) into David Ellis’s psychological thriller, Look Closer. They unravel the book’s clever twists, tangled relationships, and the moral ambiguity that defines its deeply flawed characters. The duo gleefully picks apart plot mechanics, critiques the big twists, and discusses what made this intricate thriller so engaging and hard to put down.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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Initial Impressions and Book Summary

• Sarah’s Pick & Re-Read:

  • Sarah had read Look Closer before and picked it for the podcast, praising its “messy” yet ultimately satisfying structure.
    • “I had read it before…funny the way our brains work…I didn’t remember how it ended until I got to the end again.” (00:45)
  • Jon praises the intricate structure:
    • “They broke everything up for the first 80% of the book, and the last 20% they put all back together because the web was so wide.” (01:09)

• Plot Recap:

  • The story kicks off with the murder of Lauren, a paralegal married to a wealthy man, found hanging in a Halloween costume.
  • The investigation peels back layers: affairs, old grudges, and elaborate cons.
  • Central figures:
    • Simon (her apparent lover and possible murderer),
    • Vicki (Simon’s supposed wife),
    • Nick/Christian (a prolific con artist).
  • Money, revenge, and long-game con artistry tie the characters together.

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Untangling the Web of Cons, Crimes, and Characters

• Simon’s Past & Motivation:

  • Explores the backstory: Simon’s father cheated on his mother, left Lauren (the murder victim) his fortune, the mother’s tragic death, and the tangled financial legacy.
  • Jon probes the sketchy $21 million inheritance and Simon’s complex, spiteful nature.
    • “[Simon’s] like a real long game…he didn’t forget anything.” (10:07)

• Vicki’s Role and Fake Marriage:

  • Revealed not to be Simon’s wife, but his partner-in-crime; they met in a suicide survivors’ group, both seeking vengeance.
  • Vicki’s tragic past, identity theft, and fake persona add another convolution, which the hosts note sometimes felt like a “loose end” (15:04).

• Nick/Christian the Con Artist:

  • The ultimate scumbag, seducing women for money under false identities.
  • Sarah and Jon lampoon the over-the-top way he’s written:
    • “After jackhammering Vicki on my office couch…” (12:04, Jon reading)
    • On the unrealistic sex scene: “You’re jackhammering her for two hours? You’re not doing it right.” (12:10, Jon)
    • “I don’t want to be jackhammered, I’ll be honest.” (12:19, Sarah)
  • Nick is ultimately set up expertly—the conner conned.

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Plot Mechanics, Twists, and “The Long Game”

• Twists Unpacked:

  • The hosts praise the book’s ability to keep readers off-balance and how everything clicks into place:
    • “Everything fit together so perfectly at the end.” (01:26, Jon)
    • “None of what you think you’re reading is actually happening until you find out.” (05:23, Sarah)

• Simon’s Confessions and Therapist Confidentiality:

  • Jon questions the therapist’s role and whether confessions of murder could be legally protected.
    • “I was curious…confidentiality could be thrown out when there was a violent crime…” (08:51, Sarah)

• Writing and Structure:

  • The book’s shifting perspectives, faux journals, and burner phone subplots are lauded as ingenious misdirections.
  • “You’re almost looking for like, oh, no, but did he forget about the…No, he didn’t forget anything. David Ellis, the author, he ties it all together.” (13:06, Sarah)

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Character Morality & Emotional Responses

• No One Is Good:
  • “It’s a tough book to read…there's not any good person in the book.” (07:10, Jon)
  • Nick/Christian is universally reviled: “Just a giant douchebag.” (42:18, both)
  • Simon and Vicki evoke conflicted sympathy: “They’re both complete psychopaths…[but] you’re like, oh, they’re only getting rid of bad people now.” (33:03, Sarah)
  • On Vicki protecting Simon and their unusual bond: “He’s actually in love with her…she just doesn’t feel that way.” (44:05, Sarah)

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Plausibility, Loose Ends, and Minor Quibbles

• The mechanics of Simon’s inheritance, Vicki’s police contacts, and the role of fake identity are parsed.
• “That was the only not really like loose end maybe, but seemed it was adding a layer that I wasn’t sure we needed.” (15:04, Sarah)
• Jon: “I still, like, I didn’t quite know how. I’m like, why is this husband and wife? Like, how is this adding up?” (22:45)

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• Comic Relief:
  • Running gags about “jackhammering” sex, misremembered therapy laws, and fake names (“Dean Cumstain”) provide levity.
  • “If I jackhammered you for two hours, I wouldn’t have any skin left on my penis.” (12:10, Jon)
  • “I don’t want to be jackhammered…We have a nice time because I don’t get jackhammered.” (12:19, Sarah)
• Sarah, on authorial genius:
  • “I don’t know how he kept up with his own story. To be honest, David Ellis.” (20:30)

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Literary Craft & Final Thoughts

• Both hosts are blown away by the expert plotting:

  • “Every single character had a purpose, and it was like the net was cast so wide…It did perfectly. Amazingly written book.” (44:48, Jon)

• High Praise and Ratings:

  • Sarah: “Five out of five martinis. I gotta read more by him.” (44:19)
  • Jon: “11 out of 12…highest rated book…in a year and a half.” (44:47)

• Fiction and Morality:

  • On the satisfaction of the ending:
    • “It was a more interesting ending to me that they got away with it…They played such a long game.” (43:30, Sarah)
  • “It’s nice that this is a fiction novel, and then I enjoy the characters if I want.” (41:47, Sarah)

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Important Discussion Timestamps

• 00:45: Sarah discusses her experience re-reading the book
• 01:09: Jon talks about the book’s unique structure
• 02:03: Plot summary and set-up of the murder
• 04:09: The convoluted family and financial history
• 07:21: No truly “good” characters
• 10:11: Simon’s calculated actions and long-game mentality
• 12:04: Roasting Nick’s “jackhammering” sex scenes
• 15:04: Discussion of Vicki’s fake identity subplot as possible loose end
• 18:39: Journals, burner phones, and intricate plotting
• 20:30: Praise for David Ellis’s craft in keeping the story straight
• 31:04: The law school promotion subplot and Vicki’s willingness for drastic measures
• 33:03: Hosts discuss the odd likability of the protagonists
• 42:18: Agreement on Nick/Christian’s awfulness
• 43:28: Climax and the killers getting away with it
• 44:19: Final ratings and recommendations

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Looking Ahead

• Jon’s March Pick: One Day by David Nichols.
  • “It’s happy, it’s sad, it’s romantic.” (45:47)

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Takeaways for Listeners

Look Closer delivers a labyrinthine story that’s both darkly clever and grimly entertaining, populated by amoral characters redeemed only by the excellence of the narrative. Jon and Sarah’s breakdown rewards close listening for the clarity they bring to an intentionally tangled yarn—and for the comic relief as they gleefully rip into the book’s most outrageous moments. If you love psychological thrillers with true “long game” plotting and morally grey anti-heroes, their review provides a full appreciation of just how much David Ellis pulls off.

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Notable Quotes:

• “He must have had something…some kind of vision board or something to get that all together.” (45:24, Sarah)
• “It’s a tough book…There’s not any good person in the book.” (07:10, Jon)
• “It is. It’s a whole quite the web.” (05:56, Sarah)
• “They’re terrible, but they seem like they got a little bit of good egg in there somewhere.” (41:10, Sarah)

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For readers craving detailed book analysis—and plenty of laughs—this episode is essential listening before, during, or after finishing Look Closer.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Sarah Colonna.

[B]

And I'm John Ryan.

[A]

And you're listening to the Book List. The Book List.

[B]

The Book Lisp.

[A]

Oh, that's right. You're listening to the Book Lisp. Hello and welcome to the Book Lisp with John Ryan and Sarah Colonna. Hi, John.

[B]

Hello, Sarah.

[A]

Hi. It is. It's week four already. Week four of February. We did it. We're already to the full book review for Look Closer by David Ellis. Sarah Colonis Pick because I picked.

[B]

Good one.

[A]

Those are the books that I pick is the messy one.

[B]

It was a good one.

[A]

It was a good one. I had read it before, so I had picked it knowing that I really liked it. But I hadn't read it in a long time. So I fully reread it. And it's funny the way our brains work. I. It. It wasn't until I basically got to the end that I remembered how it ended.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This one has quite a bit of twist.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's a very well written story. When he has like, so many things, like most, most of your stories, it takes like half. The first half, they break everything up. In the second half, they put it all back together. This one, it felt like they broke everything up for the first 80% of the book. And the last 20% they put all back together because it was like the web was so wide. They cast such a wide net and they brought it all back and everything fit together so perfectly at the end. It was a very good piece of writing.

[A]

See, I agree. I would say because sometimes with a book like this, it can get too convoluted and too messy to where you. You can't. You can't keep up. I mean, yes, I didn't remember how it ended this because it's. It's been a little bit since I'd read it, but it. Like you can't keep up. But. But I knew when I finished it that I would have no problem talking about exactly what happens. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't. Confused.

[B]

I think there's still going to be some things that I talk about today where I'm a little bit lost.

[A]

Okay. Okay. Well, we'll talk about those too. So this book, for those that don't read along. I know most of you do, but if you don't, this book, and just to summarize it for everyone, starts with a murder of a wealthy. A woman who's married to a wealthy man in this Chicago suburb. She's hanging from a banister. I Guess whatever you call it, right from her staircase and in a Halloween costume. Terrible way to go. Nobody wants to die in their Halloween costume. Gonna make me.

[B]

After she, After. After she got hung, she like she herself too, which I didn't think they need to mention that, but go ahead.

[A]

Oh, well, sometimes they do the very big details because they're, you know, they do the detective. They let the detectives chime in. So they wanted the detective to chime in about how things like that happen. And anyway, well, I. I didn't need

[B]

one more thing to have to worry about my death.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It was bad enough that now I have to worry about bowel control. Like, I. I just didn't need that.

[A]

Okay, well, I got enough stress. I knew that already. As the. As the daughter of a lady who ran a funeral home for many years, I already knew and have already feared it. But. Good point. We didn't need it all. And then you find out. We start to. Things unravel. Was she having an affair? Is the guy responsible that she was having an affair with, he's got crazy journal entries to her. His quote unquote wife that we believe is his wife is supposedly in the dark, but then she starts banging this guy who is going to help her get his money. Simon is the guy who we believe murdered Lauren, the dead woman, because it seems they're having an affair with all these journal entries and burner phones. And he's got a lot of money from his dad. That part was a little convoluted because it was like his dad got money and then his dad went broke.

[B]

Yes. And I was trying to. I was trying to figure out the second time around, like, okay, where did this $21 million come from? Because they talk about the reason why everything goes haywire with him and his dad because his dad cheats on his mom and then signs the money over to this person who they later kill. Yeah, they have. And then they have no money to take care of their mom anymore. And that was part. That was a whole storyline. And then all of a sudden, where does this $21 million come from?

[A]

Yeah, his dad was a lawyer and was rich at one point. And then. And Lauren, the dead woman, was his paralegal. And Simon was just a younger, younger man at that time. Anyway, you got it. That's the. It's a convoluted story. We're trying to find out who killed Lauren. And yes, we believe this whole time that Vicki, who he. They. We believe he's married to at the beginning of the book is waiting until the 10 years are up so that when she leaves him 10 years of marriage, her, his dad put in a thing where she can't touch money until they're together for 10 years. That anniversary is coming. She's banging a guy that's supposedly going to help her with the money.

[B]

But he's also a con artist.

[A]

Yeah, he's a con artist. So he's just trying to get his hands on the money. He's got a bunch of people. Turns out it's all. None of it, none of what you think you're reading is actually happening until you find out.

[B]

Yeah, the financial advisor that was, she was conning to kill this person who missed on and on and on. He was the guy who gave the drugs to his sister that she overdosed.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So the whole thing, it's a whole quite the web.

[A]

It is. And what we end up finding out, all of you that read it, we, you know, as, you know, just to, just to give a summation for all of us so our brains are on track when we review it is Lauren was the one that was banging his. Simon's dad. That's. And then like John said, Simon's. He signed all his money over to her. The mom killed herself. Simon's always blamed Lauren. And then Vicki just turns out not to be his wife and is just his partner that he met in a suicide survivors group. And because her do her sister took her own life after the guy, this con artist guy, Nick, that she is set up to basically think that he's going to get a bunch of her money when she leaves Simon. Turns out that that guy had conned her sister. That's why she took her own life because she was, he was giving her drugs and all this stuff and she gave him a bunch of money. So he's got a track record for all this stuff. So they're really setting him up. Long game. Talk about long game. These two.

[B]

That's what, that's what Simon was kind of known for is working a long game. And it was, it's a tough, it's a tough book to read and that there's not any good person in the book.

[A]

No, that's true.

[B]

I mean the form, all the however many main characters, they're all not likable.

[A]

But maybe they like Simon.

[B]

Sure. But you're like, okay, like he, you go back and he was bullied in high, he was bullied in high school. So this guy used to always steal his Gatorade. So he drugs his Gatorade and makes him Fail a PD test. So he's no longer going to be. I get a scholarship for wrestling.

[A]

Yeah, well, that's what you deserve when you're a bully.

[B]

And then we find out he kills his dad. Because. Here's my question. So he killed his dad. He had like a final. The next morning he drove to St. Louis, killed his dad, drove six hours back or whatever it was, wrote the final, but then he went and like poured his guts out to his therapist and the therapist was never allowed to say anything. But therapists, they have like the.

[A]

Whatever you call it, patient confidentiality.

[B]

Confidentiality. But there's a certain. Where they don't.

[A]

Yeah, I thought that too. I thought so. Because he. He says, you know, we start the book with. With wondering did he kill his dad or not? You're kind of not sure. And then they do at the end tell you. Yeah, I sure did. And I timed it exactly as they said I did so that it could look like I couldn't do it because I made the drive back and got to my final. But then I had a weak moment, called my therapist and I was curious about that too because I thought there was doctor patient confidentiality could. Could be thrown out when there was a violent crime involved or their life

[B]

is in immediate jeopardy, I think as well.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

So the patient.

[A]

John and I are just lawyers in our free time, so we could be. Could be wrong. I'm thinking David Ellis did most of his research on all of these things. By the way he wrote this crazy story. So did you think from the beginning just to talk about all that stuff? Like, did you think that Simon had killed his dad or did you wonder if.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Else did it?

[B]

No, I thought he did. Because, I mean, right from almost like the opening chapter, he's in there, he's doing an interview because he wants this new full time law professor job. He's talking to the dean. And dean's like, no, like I would like you to withdraw because Reed, his dad has donated a bunch of money we're probably need to read. So it just be easier if you withdrew. And then he's pissed off. He. And he walks out and he just keys the dean's car.

[A]

Yeah, like.

[B]

Like right off the hop, you're like, okay, this guy's like very spiteful. This guy's like an angry dude. That's like, he'll do it then. Even like when he does kill his dad, he caught. When he caught his dad cheating again on his mom, he was drinking champagne out of these like red glasses and Drinking this bottle of champagne. He saved the bottle. Then when he went to murder his dad, he hit his dad over the head with that bottle.

[A]

Yeah, like.

[B]

Yeah. Like everything was like a real long game with him. Like, he didn't forget anything.

[A]

No. And then. And also when he. Because he saved all those things too, because he saved the glasses, they ended up having Lauren's DNA on it. And he ended up getting to frame her. Post. Post. Humously.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Post. Hu.

[B]

Hu. Yeah, let's just all nod. Y.

[A]

After she was dead. Yeah. And he was able to end up getting her framed for it by the DNA was on those glasses. And they. And so they go, oh, she went and killed her boyfriend to get his money, basically. And so his long game with Vicky was not his. Like we said, not his wife, just his partner in crime. They. They basically said, we're going to kill Lauren and we're going to kill this Nick guy because they both hurt us.

[B]

How. How can we do it together in the same con? And they came up with this and

[A]

they end up setting up Nick because he's just that character. So I forget what he. What does he go by?

[B]

Christian.

[A]

Christian. He goes by the name of Christian, but it's a fake name. His real name's Nick. And he's conned like five, six ladies.

[B]

And she's number seven. Vicky's number seven.

[A]

Oh, okay. So he's.

[B]

So he thinks.

[A]

Yeah, so he thinks he's Connie Vicki. But she's, you know, con gets the Connie or the Connor Connors. Anyway, she. He is so well written as just the biggest douchebag.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yes.

[A]

Oh, he's like, I took so many good, long ride and like all these different things.

[B]

Yeah. Every. All guys talk about sex, all girls talk about sex, but there's certain people. You're like, you're taking it to a level that's gross. Like, he goes, oh, I. Here's the quote. After jackhammering Vicky on my office couch. Jackhammering. He's like, yeah, because at one point, like, we had sex for two hours. I'm like, you're jackhammering her for two. Oh, yeah. You're not doing it right. Yeah, you're not. It sounds like someone's going to get hurt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If. If I jackhammer to you for two hours, I wouldn't have any skin left on my penis.

[A]

Oh, you. You wouldn't. And you also would.

[B]

It's not how you do it, baby.

[A]

No, it's not how you do it.

[B]

And your face was just so scared there.

[A]

Well, Because I don't want to be jackhammered. I'll be honest. I don't. I don't know what people are looking for out there, but John and I have a nice. We have a nice time because we don't. I don't get jackhammered.

[B]

And it doesn't take two hours and.

[A]

No, thank God. Doesn't take two hours either. If it does, that's another indication you're doing it wrong. Anyway, keep on going. No, that's it. He's just so. He's written so well because he's just such a D bag.

[B]

So here's my question. When. Because Simon also has sex with Lauren when he's like 18 or 19. I think he, like, lost his virginity to her because she was working at the family law law office. So was it clear? Did she have sex with him first and then the dad?

[A]

I think so.

[B]

Okay, I hope.

[A]

Because I think so. Because they didn't say for sure, but I think so because when she. When, you know, they. Earlier, the way this was written so well, in my opinion is that there's all these references to things that then tie together later. And you would. You're almost looking for like, oh, no, but did he forget about the. And it's like, oh, no, he didn't forget anything. David Ellis, the author, like, he. He ties it all together and he talks about walking in on his dad with another woman and being upset with him because of. His mom's an invalid at home at this point, and he can't believe that he's doing this to her. And. But they never say it was Lauren. And then you find out later it was Lauren and he goes back to the whole story. And even then she says in his memory about that moment when he's upset and says, I can't believe you're doing this. She goes, is this about what happened the other night? Because that was just, you know, basically like a. That was a. You're welcome. Referencing that she had sex with him like that he lost his virginity to her. Yeah, she's like, that was why.

[B]

I think that was a birthday present or something.

[A]

She said, yeah, that's why. I think that she had sex with him first and then moved on to the dad. And. And then. So, yeah. And so he. He basically was going to kill her all along, but he had to wait years to do it. And the. And Vicki had to wait all these years to get her revenge on the guy. On this Christian guy slash Nick. What I liked too about Vicki is she's got this sorted past she's talks about how she used to have to bang her landlord for. To pay the rent and she stole someone's identity. At one point she's. They find the body of the girl whose identity she stole and she has to check in with her old cop friend Rambo.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Ramble sure that she can still use her. That was the only thing that didn't feel like. Went anywhere. Yeah.

[B]

I was a little bit like. I was just thinking, I wish if that was more of like a story. It was like, I guess he was just like they're trying to say like how badly she was trying to escape her past that she almost came up with like a fake.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Id A fake. Become a fake person. And this Rambo guy helped her and he helped her. She kind of said like, oh, like it was good to get a cop on your side by just like basically offering I think like free prostitution toward to him kind of thing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Is what she said. So then she. He was on her side and then. Yeah. The body of the real Vicky. Linear. Right. Winds up dead. And then she's like, oh, now what do I do? Around was like don't tell anyone who you are and if whatever you're doing, stop doing it. But then it didn't really go anywhere after that.

[A]

Yeah, that was the only. Not really like loose end maybe, but seemed it was adding a layer that I wasn't sure we needed. But then later on. God, this book is crazy now that I was talking about it out front because later on when. The. The friend Gavin, he's Nick's friend and he knows what's going on. But they, he's always. He always helps him out. But they try to not give each other too much information. But after Vicky gets. Convinces Nick to go kill Lauren, which he does. Yes, he actually does kill her. Simon doesn't do it. They just convince. They get him to do it. They get him to do his dirty work and then he gets back to his place and Vicki drugs him and gets him and then shoots him. Basically tries to make it look like a suicide. And the friend, the friend is still around. So he kind of basically is like, I'm going to find out where this $20 million is. I see that you set up Nick this and that and he thinks he's got one over on her because he's like, I know that you have a fake identity, therefore you better do what I say because if they find out you guys aren't. If you got married under a fake identity, you're never Getting the money that you're supposed to get after the 10 years. Right. And so he thinks he's got one over on her. And I'm thinking that, too, because they haven't revealed yet that Vicki and. And Simon aren't even really married. And I'm thinking to myself, oh, how did she. For. That's a big detail to forget. Like, if you fake. If you have a fake name, you don't have a real marri. Marriage. And it's because they were never married. Anyway.

[B]

It's kind of genius because Gavin and Nick, or Gavin and Christian are these con artists that work together. Their whole goal is to get. Basically get women out of their money, get them to get divorced and steal their money that they get from their. Their marriage or whatever. And through the whole book, it's actually. You find out that actually Vicky and Simon are always, like, one step ahead of them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So they think they're. They think they're fucking geniuses. And really, they. They're. They're a couple stooges because they're always behind. Like, even after Christian dies. Then Gavin's like, all right, I'm gonna get this money. He goes to Simon's house. He's like, oh, I'm the FBI. And he's like, okay, get it. Come in here. But, like, he was already, like, way ahead of him, where he almost. With them in the house, and be like, I know you're not the fucking FBI, buddy. Like, I got you again.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And he's like, the cops are. And then he's like, the cops are on their way here. You might want to. Do you want to talk to them because you're FBI. Well, it was funny because the way that it's written with Simon writing in this journal about his relationship with Lauren, and we don't know that it's not real, so it's not real. It's all a fake. It's all a setup so that. So that. Wait, what's the journal for?

[B]

The journal just kind of. I think, just kind of, like, tell the readers as well. Because he writes this story like he's talking to, like, oh, this woman he's so in love with. And all when you looked at me, blah, blah. But it's all fake. So then when. When Gavin sees it, when the cops get. They try to piece everything together. Going back and forth from the burner phones was also genius because that's all fake as well.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It starts to add up. Going. Going back and forth like, oh, this is like, this was a real Relationship. This. All these journal entries correspond with what they were doing on their phones. And this was their whole love story. Their whole, you know, their whole cheating love story.

[A]

But wait, the cops never saw the journal?

[B]

The Green drill.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Didn't they? Or did Gavin just see it? I think Gavin saw it.

[A]

It was Gavin. So I think that the journal. Right. Right now. So the journal was for Nick to convince him so that she. Because she went to him and said, look, I found this journal and it says, he's going to leave me. So basically she. And that's why. And that was impetus for him to have to go kill Lauren now so that they can. He won't leave her while right after Lauren dies because he'll be too distraught. So there was so much long game and so much, like, back and forth. And those were the things that I was wondering. I'm like, well, wait, now the burner phones don't make any sense. Well, yeah, they. Because Vicki had one and he had one, and it was all a setup to throw everybody off. Because when they found the one burner phone at phone at Lawrence, they knew there was another burner phone and that she was having an affair. And then they made like it was

[B]

with Nick every day. He ran. He ran. He went on his run, and he would stop behind this Mediterranean restaurant and. And phone her or text her from the burner phone and be like, why is he always going to this one place? Well, because Christian lived right around the corner, which always pinged off the same cell phone tower that he would be pinging off of. So when they come to try to put it back together, the police, they think it's him.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

In terms of Gavin or in terms of Christian and Nick or.

[A]

And it's so funny because I never even questioned any of that because, like, all these people talking about Viva Mediterranea, all the place where that he went. Because I never even question when. When he goes, oh, that's right, I know about. I know what you're doing with Vicki. Like, he's. Simon is the character is talking about all that stuff. If you think back to that, you go, oh, but that's weird. Why would he be saying, I know you're doing about. With Vicki if him and Vicki were in on it together? It's like, oh, because he's saying, I do know. Yeah, I already know about that, buddy. Like, I'm the one that sent her to do it. Like, it's so well written in the. I don't know how he kept up with his own story. To be honest, David Ellis.

[B]

So there's a couple things in there that I thought were confusing. I think later on in the story when Vicki is kind of like, kind of being. Saying something about Lauren and he's. She's like, oh, this serves you. Like, in her head. She's like, oh, this serves you right for my husband. I was like, well, wouldn't. Why would she be saying that in her head?

[A]

Wait, say that again.

[B]

She's like, well, it serves this right for my husband. Or something like that. Like, in her head.

[A]

Vicki says that?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

No, she says it to Nick or Christian. No.

[B]

I thought there was a couple times where she almost, like, it was almost like a narrator type thing where she was thinking some things, but I feel like, oh, that doesn't totally add up. Maybe I'm wrong.

[A]

Okay. Maybe. No, you might be right. I was thinking. Because those are the things that I thought back to and maybe there are a couple mistakes that. On. On that end. But I. I think mostly it was stuff that she was telling Christian because. Right. She's. She's basically like, well, fuck this woman. Anyway, she's mess. Serves her right for messing with banging my husband. So. I think so. But you might be right. But that's where it was so well written that you didn't. I didn't know. I did not suspect that it was the first and the second time I read it. No, I didn't suspect all along that it was going to be that Vicki and him weren't even married. That they basically did this long game to both get rid of someone that had really hurt them. And I thought that. Did you suspect it about.

[B]

Because I read on kindle it's about 70% in. You know, the whole time you're trying to figure out, like, who it was, who's doing it, who's who, and then was. I'm like, the last. The only two people that would make sense at this point are Simon and Vicki. They have to be working together somehow. But I still, like, I didn't quite know how. I'm like, why is this husband and wife? Like, how is this adding up? And like, why is he just, like, allowing his wife to bang Christian?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that part where he wasn't gonna. But then. But yeah. When you. When you. When he's. When you find out that he says he knows about her and Christian, which is, of course, now we know because he. They were in on it together. But when you first hear that, you're kind of like, oh, it's because he's so in love with Lauren that he figures, well, whatever. I can't really.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

I'm here doing it too. Right. And that was all that stuff that he. Yeah, all this stuff he wrote to Lauren so much to set it up. I think the cops couldn't have seen it. Right. Because then they would have had a handwriting thing. I don't think the cops ever saw it. I think it was just they.

[B]

They pieced everything together with the phones, obviously.

[A]

The phone. They did, yeah. Yeah. But it was. It's, it's. It's. Yeah. Anyway, doesn't matter. All these things. And it was also great for us to. Yeah. It says the journal's true purpose was not a real diary. It was a carefully constructed fictional narrative written by Simon to frame Christian. Nick. Vicki brings the diary to Christian, claiming to have found it to make him believe. Yeah.

[B]

And the cops had the phone. Right.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Okay, here's. Here's one thing that I thought of is he writes in the diary like that Lauren's pregnant.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Right. So then when, if, when, when they do. When they do the. Everything. The forensics on this woman Lauren, aren't they like, well, she actually wasn't pregnant. Or if she was, it's not your child. When they be able to figure that

[A]

out, or does it matter?

[B]

Because they don't have the diary that

[A]

was in the diary. And I think that, that. I think that piece was another part that was like, you got to kill this bitch, because now that she's pregnant, he's for sure going to leave me before I get the money. And then therefore, you're not going to get the money. And so it was all to frame Christian to move faster, to make sure. Like, they had to make him want to kill her. They had to make him think, I got to get this 20 million and she's pregnant and he's about to leave Vicki before the date's up. I mean, this Christian, for being a big swindler, wasn't too smart, if you really think about it, a little.

[B]

Dumb. Dumb.

[A]

I mean, if you come at me with all that information, I might be. I. If you're a con artist and someone gives you all these, they're like, oh, I, I, He. It's five days away before. And if he files before that, I'm screwed. And. And he's got all this money, which he did have all this money, and we still. That was the. Like I said, the only thing I couldn't trace back where all the money came from because it was like he did lose it at One point.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. I. I thought I was gonna pick it up on the. Because they talked about the kid that's electrocuted and that's how they got the first 30 million. He got a third of it. The law firm got a third of it. That's how he got his first bit of money. And I don't know what the second

[A]

one was like in St. Louis, it was like some big. Yeah, some big class action type thing.

[B]

They kind of made it sound like the mom died because they had no money and she's basically killed herself, right? Overdosed. Because they just, you know, whatever.

[A]

And then they made it seem like he got rich again later, I guess when he moved.

[B]

Yeah, I guess.

[A]

Just assumed, but yeah, they said it was from. I forget, almost like an Aaron Brockovich type thing or something. I don't know, something made up. But. But I, I did. One thing I liked about Vicky and his relationship, though just in general, was how protective she is of him. And, and he's in. It turns out the whole time he's actually in love with her. He's. He hates Laura and Lauren's responsible for his mom's death. Like, he's. That's. That's the genius of this whole plan is that the cops, you know, the cops come to him thinking, well, were you having an affair with Lauren? And he's like, lauren, I hate that woman. Right? And even the cop knows that. She knows that too because she knows the, the history. So he makes it. He makes it almost impossible for them to figure out a way that he could have possibly actually had an affair with her, done any of this stuff. That's why they finally assume that Nick was the one having an affair. Although at the end Jane for sure knows that Simon masterminded the whole thing, but they got no proof.

[B]

Yeah, it's funny because they, they leave a lot of like, loose strings that Jane is on to. Like the receptionist. The receptionist what? Like, knows that she's basically worked for a fake company and she's like, no, something's up. The phones is obviously on the phones. The two loose strings were one where she complained that her husband was snoring all night. They didn't realize they weren't living together.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

So they little fuck up on, on their, on Vicki and Simon's. And the other one was she complained to her, her friends that she was complaining to them about not getting enough sex. And then Simon, they. Jane is like, well, if Simon and her are having this crazy Affair. She wouldn't complain to her friends about having sex.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Also, even Simon even said his. His one up was looking up Lauren on Facebook that one time after he saw her, however, a couple years ago.

[A]

Yes. And then he, and he goes out and says he's like, when the cop, when Jane is asking him about that, she. He's like, I saw her walking down the street and she said, what'd you do? He said, well, I went and looked at her on Facebook.

[B]

Right. He kind of showed that up. Yeah.

[A]

He went ahead and threw that out there because he knew that they might look at his search history. So all these days after she's dead, he never goes on his computer and searches her name. He never does anything. He has to resist looking at anything. And he basically has to go by the newspaper, which is. Right. I mean, that's what it's gonna have. It's not. Definitely not having real time information the way you can get on social media or whatever now. So. But he avoids doing all of that because he doesn't want them to look at any of his stuff and see that he's even googled this woman.

[B]

Smart.

[A]

But what I was going to say about Vicki is that when he's. He's looking for that promotion, Simon and basically this guy, the Dean, they call him Dean Cumstain, right?

[B]

Yeah, Cubstock. But Vicki calls him Cumstein, which is.

[A]

Yeah, that makes me laugh. Vicki seemed like a good time. They. He basically says, you're going to give it to this other guy. You're not going to get the. You're not going to get this promotion. We're going to give it to this other guy. And if you read. Yeah. And if you do still apply for it, I'm gonna have to tell them that you were under investigation in St. Louis for killing your father and that they never pressed charges, but you were never not a suspect. So Vicki basically says, I'll kill that guy if you want to. She basically is when he's telling her the story because he's so upset. And at this point they are living together because she's living with him for appearances, even though they don't actually live together and are not married. And then he says, don't do. I mean it, don't do anything. Because he knows she's unhinged. And it kind of tells us that she's maybe done something in the past to people we're not quite sure, but they're kind of alluding to it. And it's not at that time we don't know that they're in on this whole thing together all along, but.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But she then goes and it's this. It's the guy's. The guy that's going to get the promotion. It's his father. Right.

[B]

Because Reed's dad's the guy who donated all this money to the law school. And that's why he's going to get the job, because his dad's donated millions of dollars to this freaking law school. So it's obviously going to go to Reed and not. Not to Simon.

[A]

Right. So she. She gets. She sets up the dad to go to a hotel, go to a hotel bar, and then get and. And goes to a room with one of her pals, probably from her old.

[B]

Yeah. Has her all mic'd up and everything.

[A]

Yeah. Has her all mic'd up and gets evidence that he's banging around on his wife and hands it to Simon to say, here you go, if you want to use this. I guess this guy might have his son withdraw his application and you could probably get that job. But Simon doesn't do it.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

I was surprised by that.

[B]

Yeah, I was, too. Because he really wanted that job, Simon.

[A]

But he doesn't want. He doesn't want it tainted. He didn't want to get it that way. As completely unhinged as he is, he's got his lines that he draws and he doesn't want a job handed to him because Reed's dad couldn't keep it in his pants.

[B]

Exactly. It's. They stay right from the start because there's so many things that are like, they say a good lie is a lie that's really close to the truth. It's so true. Because like, like there he said, like it is. I do have a rule that I can't. My wife can't touch my money for 10 years. I am going to get $21 million right away. Like, all this stuff is actually. Actually happens. And that's why it's like, at the end, they try to, like, justify their actions. Vicki and Simon look at, like, Vic. Vicki works at, like, a battered woman's shelter and she takes really good care of her nieces and all this stuff that has, like, great qualities. But then she's also a murderer.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then Simon, I mean, he's. I mean, he's poisoned a kid, killed his. Killed his dad, helped to murder his ex girlfriend, his ex lover. And then at the very end, he's given his $21 million and donates all of it to charity. $5 million to 400 charities and then a million dollars to this battered woman's shelter in Wisconsin that Vicky works at. Yes, you like, it's like the last couple pages, they try to justify their actions and you're like. But you said you kind of like them.

[A]

I did. Well, I mean, I just thought they were so well written. There was something. They were oddly endearing about both of them. I mean, I know they're both complete psychopaths, but at the. There, at the end of the day, they're, You're. You're like, oh, they're only getting rid of, like, bad people now. Does that mean that they should have murdered them? Absolutely not. But I'm just saying they. They're written well enough to where, you know, Simon has that whole thing where he walks around and he's like, why don't monkey and donkey rhyme? And why is there a. Why is it there a D in fridge but not in refrigerator? And like, he, you know, you're in the mind of this guy. He's clearly tries to keep his brain busy because he's got too many. Too many thoughts.

[B]

It's funny how that's. That they always comes up whenever he's trying to calm himself down. He goes to, like, word games in his head. Yes, that's kind of funny.

[A]

Yeah, I like that about him. But, yeah, I don't mean that I liked them as in, like, they're awesome people. I want. But I just, I thought they were well written. And there's this little bit of. Even though they're. Even though. Even in the whole time, because she's working at this battered women's shelter and you don't know that she's not married to Simon, but you know that she's had a really rough upbringing and that she ran away and changed her identity to get away from her family and her. And you think that she's married to this guy that works in a. You know, has a pretty good job at the university, but meanwhile she's really just living on her own and volunteer. I mean, she said she's not a volunteer, but she gets paid very minimal amount of money to work at a battered women's shelter. And so, yeah, you're just kind of. The whole time you're like, oh, well, this woman, she's got a good heart in her somewhere. She's working at a better woman shelter. And then him, at the end, when he get. When he does get all that money, he. Which that was the only question I have, is why was he just getting the money Then

[B]

it was something about

[A]

the timing because he wasn't married, so it wasn't really coming up on the table.

[B]

He had to wait 10 years for something. I forget what it was.

[A]

Okay, so it was that he had to wait 10 years, but the clause in there about if he was married, the woman couldn't touch it until then was also part of it. Okay. Because. Yeah. At the end, when he. When we. Even though we find out and we know everything these two have done together and that they've been planning all along, when he gets the money, even the guy giving it to him is like, you don't want to keep a little bit for yourself.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, he goes, no. And he's. He gives it all to charity a bunch, like you said to that women's shelter. And then Vicki later says, you know, that she wanted to say that she knew who this person was that gave it to her, but they had to keep it quiet. But did you wait real quick, before we get into. My next question is, I forgot to say that I am going to be performing this coming weekend. When you listen to this, the 27th and 28th in Iowa in Emmitsburg and then in Clinton, and those are at the Wild Rose Casino and Resort. And then the week after that, March 6th and 7th, I'll be in Boston at Laugh Boston. And then March 26th through 28th, Appleton, Wisconsin, and then at the Skyline Comedy club. And then April 10th and 11th at the Arlington Draft House. Sarahcolona.com yes. And please join us on Patreon, where we do bonus content. We do short stories, and we love our short stories. They're so fun. Great way to read either new authors or read something by an author that you love. That's a quick thing. And we always do those on the 15th of every month. And then the 5th and the 25th, we do random little podcasts, video podcasts. So just join us over there. It's only $5 a month. Okay, back to the book.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Did you. If you. This is actually an interesting question because the Seahawks right now are about to have to. The team is going up for sale. I just saw that. They just started the process. Did you see that?

[B]

Talked to a lot of guys today about it.

[A]

Yeah. Are we gonna buy it? I'm just kidding.

[B]

We had a whole group of guys. We'd all like to go in and buy, like, 1% of the team.

[A]

Yeah. I mean.

[B]

And apparently Roger Goodell's on board.

[A]

Oh, for people to do that.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, Listen, right now, 1% of the team is $68 million, just so you know.

[A]

Okay, yeah, so we're not. But point is, it ties into this because it was in Paul Allen's estate that she has to sell it. His sister, who, who was running the team, has to sell it by a certain amount of time. I don't know the timeframe, but that. And then it go. And all the money goes to charities. All of it.

[B]

Yeah. He also, she also recently sold her. The NBA team that Paul Allen owned, which is the Portland Trailblazers, they recently sold for $4.2 billion. And all that money is also going to charity?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The first time it's ever happened a major sports franchise has sold and all the money is going to charity.

[A]

It's an incredible legacy to leave behind. And who, who's going to purchase them? Lord knows. I hope there's a say in. Yeah, I don't know how it works, but anyway, incredible, incredible thing to do. So, speaking of, in the book, he has all this money, and I think he's doing fine working at this university. Right. He obviously didn't get the, the, the raise or the, or the promotion, but he seems to be doing all right. You know, you never get the idea that this case, like, doesn't have money, lives in a nice neighborhood and whatever. But even though he says, I don't want any of this money because it was his dad and his dad's got a big stink on him from cheating on his mom and all this stuff, wouldn't you want to keep a little bit. A little bit of it?

[B]

Yeah, 100%. I mean, the one, the only thing is you get. It's like a, it's like a write off. So if you've donated $20 million, you'd get like 7 million back from taxes.

[A]

Okay, so he. Wait, he'd get. No. You get that much back?

[B]

Well, whatever your tax rate is, if he did a 32% tax rate, he'd get $6.4 million back.

[A]

Oh, I didn't know that. I knew it was a write off. I didn't know it was a write off like that. So.

[B]

Okay, well, they don't really talk about that. I think he just thinks he's gone.

[A]

I know. I just, I just say, don't you want to keep a little bit for yourself?

[B]

Yes, 100%.

[A]

Even if some money had it. And, and it's different in the sense of, obviously Paul Allen's money does not have a stink on it like this guy's does. But. Yeah, I just in. And, And I think Jody Allen's. They're all good. I'm just saying. It just made me think of that because of the fact that they're giving all this money. It's incredible.

[B]

It'll be over $11 billion between the basketball team and the football team when it's all said and done. Maybe closer to 12, depending on what Seahawks sell for, but it's going to be a pretty. They say 6.8 billion. I don't know what they said today, but the original was 6.8. But I bet you it goes like over 8 billion.

[A]

I mean, it's crazy, but you know

[B]

what he paid for it?

[A]

No.

[B]

330 million.

[A]

Wow. Yeah.

[B]

Sorry. Go ahead.

[A]

Anyway, back to the book. If I'm Simon, no matter how pissed off and I am at my dad, I get it. I want to believe that I would say, no, I don't want any of that dirty ass money. But I got to tell you, that's a lot of money. And you. And still giving a ton away and feel really, feeling really good about it, but then just keeping enough to go to, I don't know, take a nice private private jet to Cabo for the weekend. You and Vicki go over there, see what's doing.

[B]

Yeah. Even at the very end, they're like, oh, they have this last $130,000. What do you want me to put it in, like a money market or something? And he said like, no, I know.

[A]

I'm like, simon. And I guess that's the, that's where I say you end up kind of these, these people, they're terrible, but they seem like they got a little bit of good egg in there somewhere, even though. Yeah, they're terrible.

[B]

I mean, it's kind of like one of those things where like, everyone deserved it. But then I'm like, well, if you like have an affair with someone's dad and take their money, because he kind of says like, that's the reason my mom died is because you had this affair with my dad and took his money. So he didn't have money to take care of her anymore. So he kind of blames Lauren for the death of his mother. That he kind of thinks eye for an eye. But I don't know.

[A]

No, I agree. You're not supposed to murder. And that's why this is nice, that this is a fiction novel. And then I enjoy the characters if I want.

[B]

Well, exactly, because at the start I kind of felt like it was succession, the TV show in that none of the. None of the. No one was likable. Like everyone was a bad guy. But then you kind of start to do. You know, like, they start to like them in some of the things they're doing.

[A]

Yeah. Except for Nick slash Christian.

[B]

Oh, no. He's just a giant douchebag.

[A]

Just a giant douchebag.

[B]

You like Jane because Jane really has her finger on the pulse listings. Just can't quite get it all together. And they're very forcing, they're very forceful on her to be like, come on, let's just put this in the books. Let's get over with the small town needs to, like, put a cap on this. This, you know, homicide or whatever it is Suicide.

[A]

Yeah. Because she even gets the other cop on board with her. He. He. He sees. He sees the cracks. He sees that the whole thing where Simon didn't. He slid the phone and then he slid it again and it up the bread. Blood trail.

[B]

When Vicki went to shoot him and she. She. The first shot went awry. So there's like. You know, usually people commit suicide, there's not two shots.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That one too.

[A]

There was some mistakes and left some crumbs. Yeah. And. And Jane caught him. But at the end. And I. That was the only thing I was wondering. I was like, are they gonna end up being able to. Because the one interview where her and her. Her partner. I forget his name now, but are interview or talking to him and they bring up Vicki's name and he gets a little freaked out and the other cop notices it too. I wondered. I was like, oh, are we going? Are they gonna get busted on this? But I like that they didn't.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I do too.

[A]

I like that they didn't. It was. It made for a more interesting ending to me that they got away with it at the end of the day because they played talk about, like I said, such a long game that nobody could pin it on them.

[B]

Now do Simon and Vicki get together?

[A]

I wanted them to, you know, and

[B]

they're going to get together now at the very end, the next chapter, they're going to get together.

[A]

I don't think they are, babe, because the book's over and they didn't. She just doesn't. She just doesn't feel that way. She even says at one point in the book, I. He deserves someone to look at him the way he looks at me or whatever. She knows that he. She just doesn't feel that way.

[B]

Well, you know what's coming out in September? Look closer.

[A]

Oh, really? Oh, interesting.

[B]

No, no, I'm joking.

[A]

Look closer.

[B]

Yeah, I'm kidding.

[A]

I know you are. I knew that's not the name of a book. Thank you for clarifying.

[B]

There was Dumb and Dumberer.

[A]

True. But I don't think David Ellis is writing. Okay, well, I loved this book. It's a five out of five martinis. I got to read more by him and John.

[B]

The highest rated book that you have done in a year and a half that we've done this.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Is 11. I'll give it 11 out of 12.

[A]

Oh, wow. Wow.

[B]

It was good. It was good. Like, it was really. Every single character had a purpose, and it was like the. The net was cast so wide that I had no clue how this going to put back together and how it was all going to, you know, mix together. And it did perfectly. It was pretty. It was a pretty amazingly written book. It was. I keep on thinking, you know how, like, on those, like, investigative TV shows, how they have, like, a bulletin board and they have, like, people's face in it, and they have, like, yarn tied from one person to the next to the next.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, he must have had done that while writing this book to keep everything straight in his head.

[A]

Seriously. Yeah. I mean, like, I got burner phones and journals, and I got to remember what to do with these. Yeah.

[B]

Keep it all connected. He must have had something kind of some kind of, you know, vision board or something to get that all together.

[A]

Agreed. And remind everyone what your March book is.

[B]

John One Day by David Nichols. Actually finished reading it today, and it. It's a little bit different than some of my other books, but it's. It's really good. It's really, really good.

[A]

Okay, I haven't started it yet.

[B]

It's happy, it's sad, it's romantic.

[A]

Okay. We love all those feelings. Well, guys, thank you for listening. David Nichols. One Day is your March book. And next Monday, when we start kickoff March, I will announce my next read. Look Closer by David Ellis. No, I will announce my next read after that or during that podcast. And thank you guys so much. Join the Facebook group, Book Listeners, Follow us at the book List on Instagram, and we will see you if you're on Patreon. We'll see you on the 25th with a fun, silly Patreon episode. And if not, we'll see you next Monday.

[B]

All right, See ya.

[A]

The book list.

[B]

The book lisp.

[A]

The book list. The book lisp to the book list.