Red Flag On The Play

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Book Lisp with Jon Ryan & Sarah Colonna

Episode Title: Red Flag On The Play
Date: February 9, 2026
Hosts: Jon Ryan & Sarah Colonna
Featured Book: Look Closer by David Ellis

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Episode Overview

This week's episode, "Red Flag On The Play," marks week two of the Book Lisp’s February deep-dive into Look Closer by David Ellis, a psychological thriller from Sarah's shelf. True to form, hosts (and married couple) Jon Ryan and Sarah Colonna deliver their trademark mix of light-hearted banter, sharp wit, and genuine insights. While avoiding spoilers, they touch on the book’s core premise and use it as a jumping-off point for a series of profound (and often laugh-out-loud) conversations about confidence, delusion, secrets, and "red flags" in life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Updates & Context

• Jon’s Cold and Super Bowl Timelines (00:30 – 02:50)

  • Jon’s under the weather but jokes about being “clammy.”
  • Sarah is prepping for standup shows in Iowa, mentioning how this episode is pre-Super Bowl due to their travel schedules.
  • They promise Super Bowl stories in the next episode and plug their Patreon short story club.

• Tour & Club Announcements (03:10 – 06:06)

  • Sarah shares an extensive run of her upcoming comedy shows.
  • Jon announces a new soccer stadium being built in Portland, humorously roasting Instagram commenters (“Sorry Don Matthews that we can’t just... build [the stadium] in your backyard." – Jon, 06:52).

2. Look Closer Discussion (No Spoilers)

• Book Setup & Halloween Murders (08:16 – 11:30)

  • Sarah describes the novel’s premise: a mysterious death on Halloween with layers of infidelity and secrets.
  • They riff on the dark absurdity of being found murdered in a Halloween costume, citing comedian Chris Franjola’s joke about “what you die in.”
  • Sarah’s long-held suspicion of haunted houses (“I don’t go to haunted houses because I don’t want the axe murderer to decide to... go off on people.” – Sarah, 11:09).

• Crime Rates & Halloween (12:11 – 13:18)

  • Jon asks about crime rates on holidays, revealing Mother's Day has the lowest (“No one wants to ask their mom for bail on Mother’s Day.” – Jon, 13:15).

3. Banter, Book Club Routine, and Listener Engagement

• Patreon, Book Picks, and Group Details (02:52 – 05:42, 08:19 – 08:28)
  • Monthly short stories, Facebook group “Book Lisp Spinners,” and Patreon exclusive episodes get mentions.
  • March’s book pick will be One Day by David Nicholls—teased as romance-but-not-fluffy.

4. The “Who Secretly Runs the Show” Question

• NFL Stories: Confidence & Leadership (15:03 – 19:40)

  • Jon shares how outsiders (like a magician) can get destroyed when speaking to NFL teams unless they “bring it.”

  • Example of Brene Brown commanding a Seahawks’ room:
    “For five minutes she just owned the room... and it was Brene Brown.” (Jon, 17:47)

    • Brene “looked unassuming but just walked up and... destroyed the entire room and then sat down.” – Jon

  • Broad reflection on respect and owning a room: “You had to be very experienced and have... respect of the team before you’d get this.” (Jon, 16:45)

• Comparison to Standup Comedy

  • Sarah relates it to comedy: “You gotta know what you’re walking into, and you gotta be ready, and you gotta have your skin ready and thick...” (Sarah, 18:45)

5. Underestimated vs. Feared

• How Would You Rather Be Perceived? (19:46 – 24:59)

  • Sarah prefers being underestimated: “Then I have something to prove which puts a decent sort of chip on my shoulder...” (Sarah, 20:37)

  • Jon: “I’d rather overdeliver and that’s how they respect me... than be like ‘oh shit, here he comes...’” (Jon, 21:15)

  • Discussion on how certain professions, especially women’s experiences in business, can change what’s empowering—being feared isn’t always a “shitty attitude.”

6. When Does Confidence Become Delusion?

• Comedy & Acting Cautionary Tales (25:32 – 35:13)

  • Sarah reflects on seeing delusional performers: “You gotta know if you’re good or bad at something.”

  • Cites a bartender-turned-actress who never improved: “There was this delusion of, no, but I’m so good at this. And it’s just... but you’re not.” (Sarah, 28:33)

  • Jon’s story of an overly confident friend who couldn’t play basketball: “This motherfucker can barely dribble a basketball but has the confidence of Michael Jordan.” (Jon, 33:15)

  • Both emphasize self-awareness: Admitting when things don’t work is “not only good for you, but it’s good for everybody else.” (Sarah, 37:39)

7. Is Keeping Secrets a Skill or a Red Flag?

• Trust, Boundaries, and Red Flags (38:38 – 43:06)

  • Sarah: “It’s a skill, I guess, to keep your mouth shut, but also... being a good friend or partner... in keeping someone’s trust.” (Sarah, 39:57)

  • Jon clarifies boundaries in close relationships: “You and I, we tell each other everything to a certain extent... but there are some things you’ve had times when your friends have told you something [private] and you’re like, it’s not mine to tell you.” (Jon, 41:16)

  • Distinction: Keeping secrets for trust ≠ being secretive to avoid confrontation or manipulate, which is a red flag.

8. Lightning Round & Sign-off

• Wrapping Up and Callback Riffs (43:06 – 44:09)
  • Jon jokingly: “Don’t cross me, motherfuckers.”
  • Friendly roast of Jon’s “Sick, ramped-up” energy, more expletives than usual.
  • Final reminders: February’s book (Look Closer), March’s book (One Day), and Patreon pick (The Last Father Daughter Dance by Lisa Wingate).

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

“For five minutes she just owned the room... and it was Brene Brown.”
— Jon, 17:47

“On Halloween, something goes real wrong... and then you’re found hanging from your stairs in a kitty cat costume.”
— Sarah, 10:08

“No one wants to ask their mom for bail on Mother’s Day.”
— Jon, 13:15

“You could get water if you fell out of a fucking boat. I mean, you were terrible.”
— Jon, 33:53 (about a delusional friend)

“It’s a skill, I guess, to keep your mouth shut, but also... being a good friend or partner... in keeping someone’s trust.”
— Sarah, 39:57

“I can walk in with confidence without being like, ‘You motherfuckers should fear me.’”
— Jon, 25:06

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00 – 02:50] – Welcomes, Jon’s cold, travel & scheduling logistics
• [02:52 – 05:42] – Patreon and book club logistics, upcoming shows, guest name banter
• [06:06 – 08:05] – New soccer stadium news, social media trolls, Instagram comments rant
• [08:16 – 11:30] – Book summary, Halloween murder, haunted houses
• [12:11 – 13:18] – Crime rates, especially on Halloween and Mother’s Day
• [15:03 – 19:40] – Who “secretly runs the show,” NFL team speaker examples, Brene Brown story
• [19:46 – 24:59] – Underestimated vs. feared: deep-dive into respect and confidence
• [25:32 – 35:13] – When confidence crosses into delusion: standup, acting, sports stories
• [38:38 – 43:06] – Is secret-keeping a skill or red flag? Trust, relationships, boundaries
• [43:06 – 44:09] – Wrap-up, reminders, ongoing and upcoming book picks

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Final Thoughts

This episode delivers classic Book Lisp: irreverent, honest, and full of behind-the-scenes insight—whether about the NFL locker room, standup struggles, or the psychology of secrets. Fans will enjoy the hosts’ playful chemistry, but also gain genuine perspectives on confidence, humility, and interpersonal trust.

Next up: Detailed discussion (with spoilers!) of Look Closer on week four.
March pick: One Day by David Nicholls.
Patreon story: The Last Father Daughter Dance by Lisa Wingate.

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Follow and join the Book Lisp community:

• Instagram: @thebooklisp
• Facebook Group: Book Lisp Spinners
• Patreon: Exclusive episodes & short stories ($5/month)

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Sarah Colonna.

[B]

And I'm John Ryan.

[A]

And you're listening to the Book List. The Book List.

[B]

The Book Lisp.

[A]

Oh, that's right. You're listening to the Book Lisp. Hello and welcome to the Book Lisp with John Ryan and Sarah Colonna. Hey, John.

[B]

Hey. How are you?

[A]

It's. It's great to see you.

[B]

It's great to be seeing.

[A]

How are you feeling?

[B]

I'm feeling okay.

[A]

John's got a little bit of a cold this week, as you can hear.

[B]

Just a little bit. Just like. It's just a little, like, annoying. Like, I can still work out. I can still do everything. But then at night I'm like, I just want to have, like, a good sleep, and then I'll sleep for like four hours, and then I can't go back to sleep. So if I just get a good.

[A]

Freaking sleep, I know better. I think if you could get a good sleep, you would. It would kick it. He also gets, like, a little bit, like, clammy when he doesn't feel good. John gets a little. He gets a little sweaty.

[B]

I'm already, like a pretty warm guy. So then when I get a little bit sick, I'm just. I'm constantly clammy. It's great. It feels awesome. Love it.

[A]

Feels amazing to sleep next to.

[B]

Yeah, I'll bet.

[A]

I. No, I. Listen, I'm lucky that I get to slip sleep next to you, clammy or not. Okay.

[B]

Thank you, baby.

[A]

No problem. Hello, listeners. It is week two of your February book list where we are reading Look Closer by David Ellis. Big hit. Big hit.

[B]

Yes. People are loving it.

[A]

People are loving it. I loved it. That's why I picked it. I'm rereading it with you guys. John's already read it. He loved it. We haven't talked about it yet because we saved that for week four. If you're new here, don't worry, no spoilers until week four. We just kind of. Kind of picks, pull some things from the book that won't spoil it and have random conversations, which you see every week on the book list. And it's a lot of fun. We're recording a few days in advance. So because I'm traveling to the beautiful Jefferson, Iowa, this tomorrow, right now, it's Wednesday, February 4th, when we're recording this, because I'm. I'm traveling tomorrow to Iowa to do a show. I'm actually. I'm very excited about these shows in Wild Rose Casino and Resorts. It's. They're going to be super fun. It's one this week, this Friday in Jefferson, and then I'm doing the 27th and 28th in Emmitsburg in Clinton, Iowa, all at the Wild Rose Casino Resorts. Mary Radzinski is with me for all those. But we're recording ahead of time because I'm going there. I we Mary and I have stuff to do when I'm there. So John and I were like, we don't have time to record. So by the time you hear this on Monday, I just want it clear, yes, we will have been to the super bowl and no, we can't address the super bowl right now because it's were in the past recording.

[B]

You guys are living in the future right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I already know.

[A]

We will certainly talk about it for our next episode. The fun that we had. We'll probably discuss some of it. For our short story on Patreon, and we were doing the short story, which is the the short story for Patreon is the Last the Last Father Daughter Dance by Lisa Wingate. So we do that every 15th of the month. We do a short story. They're super fun. They're short. This one I think is 57 pages. It's a great way to just read something different. Read a new author, read something short by an author you already like. That's on Patreon. There's always on the 15th. So we'll probably talk that about that a little bit because we'll have to record that once the super bowl is actually over. And we're going to put up some content from the super bowl probably on our Patreon. And all our socials. All of our socials. The book list, Instagram Book List Spinners is our Facebook group. And then we do two other Patreon exclusive episodes that are just random. Those are it's only $5 a month to join Patreon if you want to join us and support us and support us in supporting our editors and all the good things that we do. So. Yeah. And then I have other shows next week. I'll be in Springfield, Missouri, the 12th through the 14th. So. So. Well, that this week, when you're hearing this, the 12th through the 14th Missouri Springfield at Springfield Comedy Club, Chicago City Winery, the 20th, St. Louis City Winery, the 21st. And then those two casinos, the 27th and 28th of February in Emmitsburg and Clinton, Iowa. And then. And then Boston laugh Boston, March 6th and 7th. And then sprint Appleton Comedy Club, Skyline Comedy Club in Appleton, Wisconsin, March 26th through the 28th, April 10th and 11th Arlington Drafthouse in Arlington, Virginia. And then more to come after that. Sarah Colonna dot com. Did I get it all? Do you ever call Mary Emrad Imradzinski?

[B]

Yeah, you just call Emrad, like her baseball, namely, Emrad.

[A]

Oh, I like that. I'm gonna. I'm gonna call her that this week. And you know what? She's gonna like it. She's gonna like that. No, she will. I know Mary well. I know very well.

[B]

Emrad or Emrads.

[A]

I think I go, emrads.

[B]

Emrads. Yeah, Emrads.

[A]

I go. I'm gonna. I'm going to. I don't think she listens to this podcast, so that's good. So. Well, even if she does, this will come out after I see her, so. Because I remember the first time I ever called her Mayor Bear on her other podcast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she got real excited.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

And in turn, she called me Sarah Kuda.

[B]

I think it took her a couple weeks to come up with that, but maybe.

[A]

Or maybe she did it right away. And then. And then I. And then she questioned herself, but then it stuck because we all thought it was good. And then. But yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna call. I'm gonna say when I see her in Iowa, I'm gonna say, what's up, Emrads? And her head's gonna explode.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

If you guys don't know Mary, she's my co host on Are you? My podcast, and she's effing hilarious and amazing, so that's who I'm talking about. And if you don't listen to Are you? My podcast. Put that in your rotation, too.

[B]

I don't have any dates to announce, but, you know, we did announce this morning. What we announced that we're building a brand new soccer stadium right beside our baseball stadium in Portland.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yes. A 1700 seat stadium for the Cherry Bombs and the Bangers. Our two soccer teams are going to play right beside Walker Stadium in Southeast Portland.

[A]

That's so exciting. When does. When does it start? When does it go into.

[B]

Right away. We got the first games in May.

[A]

So I was going to say it's got to be fast.

[B]

We got to be pretty great. It's very funny because we announced it this morning. And then you read through the announcement or you read through the Instagram, like the post, the people, the comments.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And it's like, this is awesome. This is the best. Can't wait. Thanks a lot. Now I got to travel all the way to Southeast Portland. The team used to Live down, play down the street. Oh, sorry, Don Matthews, that we can't just. We didn't talk to you before we built the new stadium. We should have talked. We should have built in your backyard. Don Matthews. I'm so fucking sorry.

[A]

Don Matthews loves a stadium in his backyard, whoever that is.

[B]

Then there's like four other good comments. Then it's like, oh, good, all the seats, look, they're shitty. Yeah, we're going to build a stadium with all shitty seats. Thank you, Daniel Johnson from Southwest Portland. Your comment is great.

[A]

I think what John's saying here is sometimes Instagram comments are annoying.

[B]

What I'm saying is I'm a little bit sick and a little bit on edge.

[A]

A little bit on edge. I know. And you can't even get. You can't even get a sweet release right now from me. Sorry. What?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I'm so sorry. Our list spitters do not want me to say that ever again. And I'm really sorry.

[B]

Where did that come from, baby?

[A]

Well, just. I thought maybe you were a little tense because you're a little. Because you're sick, and then. Oh, you know what Relieves tension. But I can't have sex with you because you're sick. I can't get sick. I gotta go to Iowa.

[B]

I don't think that would make me feel any better right now.

[A]

How dare you. Okay.

[B]

Sex does not. Does not relieve my nasal congestion.

[A]

You don't know what I can do.

[B]

Yeah, we've been together for 12 years. I know exactly what.

[A]

I'll tell you what it's not right now. It's definitely not gonna release anything right now because you're not getting it.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

Can we talk about books like we're supposed to?

[B]

I would love to. There's nothing I'd rather talk about right now than book.

[A]

Well, first of all, reminds everyone, your March pick. John's. It's John's pick in March.

[B]

Okay, One day, but David Nichols.

[A]

One Day by David Nichols, I believe. Nichols with two L's and I C H, O, L L S, if I recall. So that's your March book, and it's going to be lighter than Sarah's February pick. Look closer.

[B]

Yeah, but David, I don't think it's. I don't think it's like a real. Like a real fluffy p. It's like a real fluffy romance book. It's. There. Has some depth to it.

[A]

I. I'm not saying there's no.

[B]

There's no. No one. I don't know how Many people die like in your book.

[A]

Since this, this book does start with a death. My book does start with a death. There's no. I'm going to say one thing because it's not a spoiler because if you've read the first page so that this page is a. For those that aren't reading along. It's a, it's a. Who done it? We, I, I'll tell you what it's about when we read our, when we do our week four. But there's a body at the very beginning. A woman is, is found hanging from her own like staircase right on Halloween. And then it's. She was married, but she was also maybe involved with someone else. And then the person she was involved with was also married. And so it's all unraveling this story. So that's what the book is at its core. Small story, small description is about Anyway. But she's found on Halloween.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And in her costume. And this makes me.

[B]

I knew you're gonna get upset by this.

[A]

Well, it just makes me think Chris Franjola used to do this joke about like how Pat when Patrick Swayze died in Ghost and then he was just wearing that like purple button down and jeans the whole rest of the movie and how it like really makes you think about what you leave the house in. And so I'm not, I, I'm, I, I'm, I'm thinking of that right now. Now that I've brought this up, I'm thinking back to Chris's story joke. So. But, but think about on Halloween, something goes real wrong. Someone wants to murder you. And then you're found hanging from your, your stairs in a, in a kitty cat costume. This one. I mean, whiskers and heels and the whole thing.

[B]

Yeah. I don't want to say too much, but you've always said if you want to murder someone, you go to a haunted house. Oops. Accidentally put the chain on the chainsaw. Oops. Now your head is cut off. And no one's the wiser because I ran out the back door. And now you're sitting there with no head.

[A]

Okay, thank you. So we are not doing the book review. But since, since we do know that it. The murder happened on Halloween and John brought that up. That was something I was going to bring up on week four, but I'll bring it up now since it's not a spoiler. Exactly. At one point someone says what better night to murder someone than Halloween because you can walk away in your costume. And someone goes, oh, that's just the Grim Reaper. Oh, yeah. That actually just killed someone, but nobody thinks they did because they think it's just a costume. And this is why I've always said I don't go to haunted houses because I don't want the axe murderer to decide to. If you're a psycho, what better night to get a job in a haunted house and go off on people?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That'S.

[B]

That haunted. That Haunted Hayride in la. Those a little crazy. I feel like they could. They're on the verge of maybe doing that.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's. It's not that scary, the Haunted Hayride, but they do come out of nowhere, so it gets kind of spooky. But you're on a ride with like.

[B]

You walked out of a haunted house on the emergency exit pretty quick, by the way, so don't act all high and mighty.

[A]

Well, that wasn't the haunted Heyright. That was like one of the houses within it. And I didn't like those.

[B]

But the whole thing is called the Haunted Hayride, isn't it?

[A]

Well, but. I know. But part of it is actually on a hayride. And then there's other things you do around the property and. And some of them are the haunted house. And I go, no, thank you, because I think there's psychos in there.

[B]

Do you think.

[A]

Do you know I'm still alive?

[B]

Yes. Do you know what the highest. The day with the highest crime rate of the year is? I don't know the answer. No, probably. No, that.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

It's probably. I know that, like, officers obviously, like, full moons are like the worst. A lot of high crime rate on full moons. But you think that Halloween would probably be up there, right? New Year. New Year's Eve is probably up there. You know what the lowest crime rate of the year is for a day? The absolute lowest crime rate for a single day of the year is the same day every year.

[A]

Is this something you actually know? You're just making it up.

[B]

Yes. No, this is. I actually know this answer.

[A]

What is it?

[B]

What do you think it is? Mother's Day.

[A]

What do you think it is? It's Mother's Day.

[B]

Mother's Day. Mother's Day.

[A]

Okay. Because everyone's at home with their mom, so they're.

[B]

Yeah. Even the criminals.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'll rob that bank tomorrow, Mom.

[A]

Yeah. Well, it's nice.

[B]

Yeah, it is nice.

[A]

It's a.

[B]

It's a gift that they only comes once a year.

[A]

You don't want to embarrass your mom and Mother's Day, of all days. So no. Oh, wow.

[B]

No one wants to ask their mom for bail on Mother's Day.

[A]

No, she busy. Okay. Rant over. If you guys go to haunted house this Halloween, enjoy yourselves, but hope you come out of it.

[B]

I'm not a big haunted house guy. I mean. I mean, two years ago, into the Universal Studio haunted night or whatever, went to all those, like, there was, like, 15 different haunted houses, but they're all very corporate. It was all very, like, predictable. It was fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's a couple stops for alcohol along the way. There should have been more stops for alcohol along the way, but other than that, yeah, it was fine.

[A]

They weren't super scary. It wasn't super scary, but I don't.

[B]

Want to be scared.

[A]

I know, but the ones that are scary, those are the ones I. There's the. The Honda Hayride, the one we're talking about. They have this, like, a maze, and that is awful because you just can't see anything.

[B]

You hear, it's like pitch black in that field.

[A]

Pitch black. And then all you hear is chainsaws. And I'm like, this is someone's perfect opportunity to just.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Even if he didn't work there, sneaking with a chainsaw. Chainsaw into the middle of a field, chop someone's head off, go right back out. No one would be the wiser.

[A]

No, they go, that guy just works here. Employee parking. Probably gets a nice spot up front.

[B]

Yeah. Free episode of Dateline.

[A]

Anyway, happy February, everybody. This is already taking a dark turn, but we're going to get.

[B]

For absolutely no reason.

[A]

For no reason. Well, we're going to do some random topics as we do.

[B]

We already got some really, really random topics here.

[A]

John's been pulling.

[B]

Well, no, because you go to chat gtp and then you have to, like, keep on. Like, you have to keep on massaging it until you get what you want out of them. They're like, maybe little more funny. Make it a little more this. Make it more aimed towards the characters. Make it more aimed towards looking. You just keep on massaging it until you get what you want.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Okay. That's how you work AI people. That's how you work these Robux. You know, who's winning, who's taking over who, you know what I'm saying? All right, let's get on with the show. Okay. One of the questions that popped up. What I'm gonna. I'm gonna change it says, what's a real life version of someone who looks harmless but secretly runs the show. So I want to change it from someone who looks harmless, someone who looks maybe unassuming, someone who looks honest. Because this, this tailors the question to. To me and something that popped into my head right away. Someone who looks unassuming but secretly runs the show. Okay, do you have any examples right away or should I go.

[A]

You can go first.

[B]

Okay. The first thing that popped my mind is when I played in the NFL and if you got up in front of a team and you were going to talk, you better fucking bring it. Like if you, if you aren't on your game, if you aren't respected, if you haven't been the league for five or six or seven years, you're going to get destroyed. You're going to get booed off the stage. People are not going to listen to you. We had in the Seahawks one time, we had a day where we had people magician in to perform and we absolutely destroyed this poor guy at the end. He was like yelling at the player, being like, you don't know that it was, it was awful because he just, he couldn't, he couldn't hang. He couldn't handle it. And I've seen guys walk up there, especially from the outside and try to talk to the team and just get destroyed.

[A]

You.

[B]

If you, if you aren't comfortable in that room, you ain't fucking doing it.

[A]

So this guy was just trying. So Pete. So John said Pete hired him. So that was his old coach, Pete Carroll.

[B]

Yeah, sorry. Pete Carroll the head coach was at.

[A]

So P. Hired this guy to, to entertain you guys or.

[B]

Yeah, there was supposed to be a message behind it. I don't know what it was because it just got all combo related with Ash just trying to destroy this poor guy. And he just basically left. And it was ugly, it was bad. But like if anyone tries to come and talk to a team like that and they can't, if they can't hang, if they don't have a really good message and deliver it right away, they just get destroyed.

[A]

Was the guy sad?

[B]

Yeah, he looked distraught. Absolutely.

[A]

Poor guy. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. And so it just like you had to like. I remember even like younger guys when they try to talk, they'd get destroyed. So you have to be like very experienced and had to be very, like have the respect of the team before you. They'd get this. So one day we had this, this author, it's a female author, and she came to the front of the room and for five minutes she just owned the room. Like completely owned the fucking room. Like no One could say. Shit. And it was Brene Brown.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yes. And she walked in. It was like, the most badass thing I've ever seen. She wasn't, like, confrontational or anything. She. She was just asking questions, and no one could answer them. And she just, like, ran the room for five minutes, and it was just like, people. Guys are like, holy fuck. And then she just went and sat down. And that's. That's someone where. It was like, she's maybe looked, especially in that environment where looks unassuming and just walks up and just freaking destroyed the entire room and then sat down. And that's what. Right. When we talked about that, it was like, someone that looks unassuming just absolutely runs. Run.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think a lot of people in this world have seen that from her, from her books, from her appearances, that she's just, like, a badass.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, that's cool. I still feel really sorry for that magician. It's just. Just you don't know when you're walking into the lion's den. That's right.

[B]

Poor guy.

[A]

I know, and I felt bad for.

[B]

Him, but it's like, you had. You had to be, like, on it with that crowd, or they were just gonna destroy you.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, in some ways, standup comedy is that way you got to know what you're walking into, and you got to be. And you got to be ready, and you got to have your skin ready and thick, and you got to be prepared, and if someone. You know, and then you got to handle people if they act up. But, yeah, I can't. I'm trying to think of somebody that looks, like, unassuming but just runs stuff that I can think of. But, yeah, I. I don't have nearly. I mean, your examples were just so good that I don't feel like trying.

[B]

To follow, but I was all like. That was. I mean, God, that was like, a decade ago, and I still remember it. It was just like, so. And. And I was also a fan of hers, read all her books, love her. But just to see her in live and just see what she did was, like, with that, one of the hardest crowds in the world to impress was really, really cool.

[A]

Yeah. That's awesome. And I'm glad that she got the respect she was supposed to get, for sure.

[B]

Okay. Would you rather be underestimated or slightly feared?

[A]

So I think I would prefer to be underestimated, personally, because I think probably due to what I do and. And. And my profession and the things that I've set goals on throughout my career and the things that I've overcome throughout my career. I'm not trying to make it seem like I'm, I don't know, some kind of genius, but you know what I'm saying? Like the, the, the, the things that I've accomplished when I wasn't supposed to or the things that I've accomplished that in that it took me way longer to get than I thought it was ever going to take. And that people, some people probably counted me out before I finally did. So I think I like being underestimated because then I have, I can, I have something to prove which puts a decent sort of chip on my shoulder. Is that weird?

[B]

Yeah. No, not really. No, not at all.

[A]

Not a chip on my shoulder. But I just mean I, yeah, I'd rather be underestimated and prove people wrong personally than be feared because I don't get a lot of pleasure out of people being afraid of me.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's kind of the difference between glass half full and glass half empty. So I feel like I don't want to get respect through people fearing me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I, I don't. I, I rather, I rather, I rather over deliver and that's how they respect me. I didn't expect him to, I didn't expect him to walk in this room and do this. I didn't expect him to go on the football field and do that. I don't expect her to get on the stage and do that. I'd rather have respect through that than be like, oh, shit, like, here he comes. I respect him because I'm scared of him.

[A]

Right? Yeah, you said that a lot better than I just did, but I don't think so. But I agree with that. And I think someone, you're the same way. Someone like you, the position that you played in football for so many years, it's, it's, it's one that some people immediately, especially before, right, people are a lot more savvy now about football and understand every position and how important every position is and understand what the punter does and how important their job is. But there was like old school, you know, kind of meathead guys would be like, oh, yeah, punter, whatever. You're not athletic, this and that. And it's like, okay, just watch me.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, I. Every once in a while you still hear that and you're like, tell me, show me you know nothing about football without saying a word. And you just did.

[A]

Yes. That's what I say to people.

[B]

You just showed me, you know, nothing about football.

[A]

Anytime anyone makes a little bit of a crack like that, I go, oh, so you don't know anything about football? And then they, you know what they do? They just, they just stare at me, open mouth, open mouth, breathing. And have nothing else to add to it. Because I'm like, yeah, because you don't know. You just picked up some joke that your dad told you in 1927.

[B]

Yeah, those aren't real players.

[A]

But that, that adds to the sort of over perform after being underestimated. So I think that's a com. It's not a comfortable position because being underestimated kind of sucks to be honest, at times. But then when you grow a certain amount of self confidence and you know that you're going to deliver, it's actually kind of fun. Yeah, it's, it's, it's actually way more fun. Oh, okay. Did you think that I'm not. Okay, well just wait and then, and I don't have anything to prove to you right now because my resume or my career or my thing I'm about to do that you don't even know is coming speaks for itself. So buckle up now. I sound angry. Exactly.

[B]

I know, I like it.

[A]

But I would be interested in listeners sort of, they're, they're different takes on that. Because some people probably love to be feared when they walk in a room. Right. Some people get something out of that. And it doesn't mean that they're mean people or, or people that are actually to be feared. But if you can put off a certain air that makes people kind of stand back when you walk in a room, even though maybe you're the kindest person in the world, there's definitely something to be said for that too.

[B]

I know a lot of business people that like to be feared when they walk into a room.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think it's a shitty attitude to have.

[A]

Well, I don't know if it's a shitty attitude. Like I said, I think it varies, but I think that it kind, I think a lot of it does depend on your profession because I think in business for women especially over a certain, during certain periods of time and probably still not probably still, I'm sure still, but I mean throughout different periods of history, you almost had to be feared when you walked into a room because you were always under underestimated. So now it's like kind of nice to be feared instead. So there's probably a little bit of a satisfaction on that end of being like you always underestimated and now you get to fear me. So I don't think it's a bad attitude to necessarily have that feeling.

[B]

I just think walking into a room with a bunch of confidence is different than walking to a room being like, you should fear me.

[A]

Right?

[B]

One of the things you're carrying with you, one of the things you're trying to. To put onto other people. And I can't control what other people feel, so I walk in with like, I can walk in with confidence without being like, you motherfuckers should fear me.

[A]

Right? I wish you guys could see John's face when he said, you motherfuckers should.

[B]

All you motherfuckers better fear me.

[A]

You better fear me. Looks so scary.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, guy, that's a fun conversation.

[B]

Okay, I'm going to continue on with our mishmash of questions, all inspired by the book. This actually could be a good conversation right here because I know a lot of people in this. When does confidence cross into delusion?

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I know. I. There's so many good stories right now that we could tell.

[A]

I don't even know. Yeah. I don't know if I don't know how to say a time frame on when confidence crosses into delusion. Like, you know what I mean? Like, sometimes when AI words things for you to give you ideas, it's just a weird wording.

[B]

But does I like the word on this one? Yeah, but I like the word on this one.

[A]

Okay. Because confidence crossing into delusion. I guess I'm just saying there's no when. When it does. You've seen it. I mean, I'll tell you, there's in, in, in acting and stand up comedy, there's so many examples of this. And what's hard about that is when you're, when you see other people that you go, oh, my God, is this person serious? What they're doing on stage? And, And I'm not talking about someone just having an off night. Okay? I'm not talking about comedians that are good having an off night or I'm not talking about an actor that's really good having an off night in a play or a, or a bad day on set or whatever. I'm talking consistently. No, you're not. This isn't for you. And I have seen it so many times. I have seen stand up comedians that I go, oh, oh, my God. Oh, no. And then. And they keep. And there's not a. There's at some point, you, of course, when you're first starting out, of course, when you're learning you're Going to have your good nights, your bad nights. You're going to have a learning curve. But there's a. There's an underlying knowledge that you're good at what you do. There's an underlying. There's. There's some feedback that's coming to you that's good and you're not on the wrong path and this and that. I mean, you see some people that just go, yeah, whatever. Guess they didn't get it. Every single night, every single joke for the, for the entire half hour, 40 minutes, whatever they're doing, and you go, what are you doing?

[B]

How?

[A]

I remember, there's this one woman that I used to work with as a bartender, and she was. She was just a horrific actress. And I'm not trying to. To say that I know good versus bad, but we all. I mean, sometimes. I mean, talent. Things that make you laugh is subjective. Things that make you cry is subjective. But for the most part, when you see someone act, we all can kind of agree if they're at least decent at their job or not, right? And then you can tell when someone's just real bad. Am I explaining this well enough? Okay.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And this woman, she was so bad. She was. I was in an acting class with her, and I was like, it's like the craziest thing just to hear her read a line. Sounded like she was doing a sketch of herself. Right. It was just. And everyone in class was just. But she just, day after day would talk about how this was what she was just meant to do and meant to do and ends and just. And that never changed. It never happened for her. And I feel bad, but there's. There was this delusion of, no, but I'm so good at this. And it's just. But you're not. And, and you got to know if you're good or bad at something. You got to know if you're. I mean, you got to know if you're a good football player. You can't just assume you're going to be able to make it in the NFL. I mean, we already know even when you're in a fantastic football player, you're barely going to make it. And even when you're a fantastic actress, it's hard enough to make it. Or when you're a fantastic comedian, it's hard enough to get the right. In front of the right people and, and all these things. So I. Now I'm talking in circles because I feel bad that I'm talking about how delusional this one person was. But I'm just saying you can. Sometimes you just got to go, hey, guys, hey, you're not good at this. You gotta, yeah, you maybe love the industry. You gotta find it behind the scenes situation for yourself.

[B]

And it's a hard conversation to have with people.

[A]

That's why I didn't ever have it with her. I just, I just. That was great scene. Yeah.

[B]

I'll never forget you had a show in Indianapolis. You had five shows that were like great shows, solo shows. I think it was like the early show Saturday. A guy came, he goes, I travel with 30 people. I'm a good stand up comedian. The club said it was okay, if you wouldn't mind to let me do a guest set. And this guy went up there and ate the biggest pile of shit I've ever seen in my entire life. Like, this guy was awful. Yeah, awful. Like, like, like a zero out of a thousand awful. And then he comes off the stage, he goes, so, what'd you think? Pretty good, right? I was like. And you were just like, yeah, yeah, that was awesome.

[A]

Because there's no.

[B]

But there's a delusion there where, yeah, you are so terrible. And it's not just like, it's almost like you're not even trying. You're so bad, but you think you're good. And like, I feel like you need a no person, but you probably don't have any. No people. And you just keep on going. And I love the fact that some people just keep on going and going and going until they figure it out. But when you're so bad, sometimes it's just not for you.

[A]

Sometimes it's just not for you. And, and, and it's hard because there is a fine line. There are times that I probably would have just given up if I didn't believe enough in myself. And maybe some people thought I was delusional, but I, I. And, and so it's a hard line to say, which is how to know if you're being delusional or if you're just not getting the right breaks. It's really hard. And even that person I remember you're talking about, it was like, oh, no. If he would have come off stage and said, I was so off tonight, but thanks for letting me have a set, I would have thought, oh, okay. I'm not gonna judge based on that. Exactly. I'm gonna assume, you know. And instead he was like, crushed the room. He was like, crushed it, right? I'm like, people were leaving. I Laughs I have to be here. I didn't Leave. But, yeah.

[B]

So I. But the, the first story that comes to mind is a guy that's actually a really good friend of mine. I love him, so I hope he's not listening to this, but I've actually told him this to his face 1000 times. This guy was the most confident person I've ever met, but crossed over to delusional. Okay, we met in ninth grade. Okay, we met in ninth grade. And he was telling us how great of a basketball player. This is just one example. And he goes all the way back till he's 14, 30 years ago. I'm such a good basketball player. I have, like, I have a shooting coach my dad hires. I have a university coach that trains me in the, in the weekdays, can't wait for tryouts November, blah, blah, blah. So we're all talking like, well, Dave. Oh, sorry, Dave. I was going to say his name. Oh, Dave's. Dave's obviously going to make the team. Blah, blah. Who else going to make the team? There's only 11 spots left. Whatever. So this guy, he never plays basketball at lunch, never plays after school because he has a private trainer, private shooting coach. So we come, like, day one of trials. I wasn't trying out for the team because I was playing hockey and football. He comes out in. This motherfucker, can barely dribble a basketball, but has the confidence of Michael Jordan. Okay, like, he is awful, like, terrible. Like, this motherfucker has no chance of making the team. He couldn't make a mighty mite team, but he thinks he's the best player on the court.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Is that much confidence, like, good in life? Does it carry over to life where you're just like. You walk into a room like, I'm here, motherfuckers. Or people just like, oh, my God, this, like, eventually, can you trick people? Because this guy tried for years to trick people on the sports field and he failed brutally.

[A]

Right?

[B]

But it was. It was incredible how he kept. He kept up for years being like, man, I can't believe these losers cut me from this team, man. I would have led the team in scoring. I'm like, you get water if you. You could get water if you fell out of a fucking boat. I mean, you were terrible.

[A]

Yeah. And just know. Realization of.

[B]

No, no realization.

[A]

Because that. But. And I do think, because the. You're almost answering it. And I'm probably not going to say this as, as. No, no, no. I'm not going to say as intelligently as it's registering in my mind right now, but I Think part of the difference between delusion versus just not doing something to the best way that you can in that certain moment is exactly that. It's being able to admit when you didn't do it the way as. As well as you should, when you didn't execute the way you should have. I mean, it's just what I just said about that guy coming off stage. If he would have just said I had an off night, I would have said, okay, this guy gets, you know, he just had an off night. We've all had that. But instead, he probably did exactly what he did that night every single night. And never occurred to him that maybe he's supposed to hear a laugh or people are supposed to.

[B]

Comedy show.

[A]

Yeah, People aren't supposed to ask for their money back. But, you know, if you come off of a. If, if you came out off out of a game and you felt like you didn't punt the way you wanted to punt, you would say, that didn't go the way I wanted it to.

[B]

Which also was like 99% of the football games I played, I wasn't happy.

[A]

Well, I. Well, yes, you're also extremely hard on yourself. But that's what I mean. There's balance. There's a balance between all of that. And I remember that time. I forget I was. It was. I was shooting in Sasa Ball and so I was in Atlanta and I was watching the game. You're you playing a game with Chris Gorham in Dallas Roberts, two of the other stars of Insatiable. Very talented actors. Chris is currently on Sheriff country or County Country? I don't know, one of the two. It's great show. It's on cbs. Why I can't remember Kentrew county, but you guys know it. He's on it with Marina back. Marina, background. Dallas is an amazing actor. He was great in the Menendez Brothers. He played the psycho, the psychiatrist, whatever. Anyway, they're both on Insatiable. Great guys. I remember we were watching a game and I forgot what happened. Was it a trick play?

[B]

It was a fake field goal.

[A]

It was a fake field goal and it was not the cut like the fake field goal that you're famous for.

[B]

No, it was a little, like a little inside. Little inside pass to Luke Wilson flipping the ball. Everything. I did everything exactly as I supposed to. Luke did everything exactly as it's supposed to. It just didn't work because they sniffed it out. And the second I threw it to him, he's got tackled for like a minus 1 yard. Play ended I think they got the ball back. They kneeled on it, went into halftime, like, no harm, no foul, really. But we could have kicked the field goal, so we lost three points.

[A]

And the way. The reason I bring that up is because we're just talking about when people just go, yeah, that didn't go how it was supposed to. The minute they went right to the locker room for halftime. So John texted me and he wrote, well, that didn't go how it was supposed to go. And the guys were, so. Dallas and Chris were both so just blown away of seeing an immediate reaction after a play from someone that was actually in the play because they both knew you and they love you and they think you're great, but they were like, it's so crazy just to see him, you know, see this happen. And as he just go, like, yeah, well, that didn't work. Instead of, you know, banging your head against the lockers and Dallas screaming brought that up.

[B]

So he's like, this is my favorite NFL moment because we're just all watching the game in the bar, like, oh. Then a minute later, this technical. That didn't work.

[A]

So, yeah, sometimes admitting when things don't go the way they're supposed to is a. Not only good for you, but it's good for everybody else. It gives. Honestly, if something isn't working. When I'm on stage, sometimes I just. If I just acknowledge it, I go, listen, this is something I'm working on. I get it. We're not all here on this, and I find a way out of it, or I acknowledge it, or I say, thanks for letting me work that out. Things like that. So there's. There's comfort to other people in not being delusional and just admitting being human and admitting you didn't get something right.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It took a long time for me to get there, but you know what I'm saying?

[B]

You got there, and I understand it was good.

[A]

Do you?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Good to know.

[B]

Get it, baby. Let's do what? I got one more. One last one.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Before we call it a week.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

This is good. Is being good at keeping secrets a skill or a red flag?

[A]

I mean, honestly, both.

[B]

I guess. It depends, right?

[A]

It depends.

[B]

My initial reaction is a skill.

[A]

Sure. Because I, I. It's hard to keep secrets, so it is a skill in that sense, no matter what. For personally, for me, it's hard to keep secrets, but not if it's a secret that is necessary to keep somebody safe or. Of course, yeah. Or to keep. Or. Or it's somebody's you know, something that they share with you that's just. Nobody else's effing business. Just something very personal. Something. So I don't. It's a skill, I guess, to keep your mouth shut, but also it's a skill in just being a good friend or a good partner in. In. In keeping someone's trust. I would say when it's a red flag is when it's like little. The little weird white lie shit that people keep from people for no reason. Like.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Then it becomes almost like a game for them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like they, like, they always try, like, manipulate the truth. They're like, like keeping little. I don't know. I don't know how exactly to say it, but. Well, times with certain people, and I think it's gross.

[A]

Yeah. Like, excuse me. A good example is on Are you My podcast, we talk about Married at first sight. And there was this guy this season that he just. He would just lie about everything to this girl. He would just. He was following someone on Instagram and. And she said, oh, why do you follow your ex? I don't. No, I don't. She's like, well, I could know, but I can see that you do. Right. And then, oh, why did you message that girl? I didn't. Well, she wrote me and she showed me that you did. Right. So when it's that kind of dumb stuff, like secrets like that, that stuff to me is a huge red flag. And it's keeping secrets just. Just to either avoid confrontation or because you're actually just being shady. And so that kind of stuff is always a red flag to me or keeping, you know, or sometimes if there's. Is there something that you have to tell to. To help somebody too? Sometimes that's a shitty skill to have to have, but you have to know when it's the right thing to do, right?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, there's judgment involved. I think I'm pretty good at keeping a secret. And I think there's. There's something like. I know some people. Well, I'll just say I was thinking of this. Like, you and I, we tell each other everything to a certain extent.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And when I say by that, I mean there's some things you've had times when your friends have told you something. I said, oh, what was that about? And you're like, it's not mine to tell you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You're not keeping a secret from me. No, it's just not your. We talk about everything, but there's certain things that it's not for you to tell me. There's been times where my family has said things to you, and you said, just so you know, if you don't want me to tell John, I won't.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's not keeping anything from me. Because you'll come to me and be like. Or if I. If I ask you about. You're like, we had a conversation, but it's not for me to tell you. I'm sorry. But that's. It's. It's not like, oh, you're keeping that from. You're keeping secrets from me. That's not what that is.

[A]

No.

[B]

I think some people think that in a relationship they have to tell each other absolutely everything and break the trust of other people. And I don't like that.

[A]

No, absolutely.

[B]

Does that make sense?

[A]

Of course.

[B]

You know. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yes, I know. I'm just trying to say, because you were like, some people are like, oh, you don't tell your wife everything. Well, that's kind of messed up. I'm like, no, it's not.

[A]

No. Because if you. If a friend tells me something that they are like, usually, if any. If anyone's talking to me about something that they don't want you to know, I would probably already know that going in. Like, they wouldn't. You know what I mean? It would probably be very personal thing where it's like, oh, they don't. They probably don't want me to share this no matter what.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I don't. They don't even have to have that conversation with me. But if someone is like, hey, I know you'll. You know, you'll probably share this with John, I don't mind. Then I go, okay. And then I'll decide later if you want to be involved in that or not.

[B]

That if I went to you and asked you about it and you said, that's not for me to tell, I can't talk to you about that. I wouldn't be, oh, my God, you're keeping secrets from me. No, it's like, I'd be, oh, okay. Of course, not that. That's not for me to know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And, you know, I think some people can't tell. Some people don't know where that line is.

[A]

No, they don't. That's true. There's always a line for everything. Guys don't cross.

[B]

Really is don't cross me, motherfuckers.

[A]

Ramped up Sick. John is really on one today.

[B]

I really am sorry.

[A]

I know. I think I took it all out of you.

[B]

A lot of f bombs today. I apologize.

[A]

That's okay. You don't feel great. We. We had. This was a fun conversation, though. We covered a lot of randomness. And we started off with being murdered on Halloween. To who? Who keeps the best secrets? And there you go. There you go. Week. This is week two of your February book list. And it's Look Closer by David Ellis. The Last Father Daughter Dance by Lisa Wingate is your Patreon short story. It's only $5 a month to join Patreon. It's fun content over there. And your March book is One Day by David Nichols. That's John's pick.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

So there you go. We'll see you next week. Bye.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

The book list.

[B]

The book lisp.

[A]

The book list.

[B]

The book lisp.

[A]

The book lisp.