“Summer Sisters” Full Discussion

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Summer Sisters" Full Discussion

Podcast: The Book Lisp with Jon Ryan & Sarah Colonna
Episode Date: July 27, 2026
Hosts: Jon Ryan & Sarah Colonna
Book Discussed: Summer Sisters by Judy Blume

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Episode Overview

Jon Ryan and Sarah Colonna, husband-and-wife book club hosts, dive deep into Judy Blume’s iconic 1998 coming-of-age novel Summer Sisters. The hosts explore the layered friendship between Victoria (“Vix”) and Caitlin, unraveling themes of loyalty, betrayal, family dysfunction, sexuality, and adulthood. The episode balances humor, vulnerability, and honest debate, offering both light and serious takes on the book’s many plot turns.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Initial Impressions & Judy Blume’s Legacy

• Sarah confesses it took her a while to get into the book, partly due to reading another title, but “couldn’t put it down” once she was in. (07:06)
• Both hosts praise Judy Blume as a formative coming-of-age writer.

  “She’s a… she’s America’s Margaret Atwood.” – Jon (07:27)

• They discuss Blume’s ability to authentically portray adolescent anxieties and relationships.

2. Setting, Family Dynamic & Class Layers

• Hosts explore the initial surprise at the supposed “wealth” of Caitlin's family, which appears far from glamorous in their Martha’s Vineyard summer house.

  “[Vix] gets there and she’s like, ‘this place is a dump...’” – Sarah (10:10)

• The contrast between appearances and reality in class is highlighted, with the hosts unsure if the messy summer home was an intentional subversion. Jon notes that only when Abby (Lamb’s new wife) renovates do we realize the family is well-off. (11:02—13:34)
• Separation and parental choices are scrutinized:

  “She basically said, ‘I’ll take the daughter, you take the son.’ Splitskies. I mean…” – Sarah (09:56)

3. Character Deep-Dives: Victoria & Caitlin

• The complex, sometimes toxic, dynamic between Vix and Caitlin is central.
• The hosts debate Caitlin’s quality as a friend:

  “You could argue that she’s the worst friend in the world and sometimes she’s the greatest friend in the world.” – Jon (33:32)

• Sarah examines survivor’s guilt and class mobility through Vix’s lens, relating to her personal life. (36:22)
• Jon notes Caitlin’s early best-friend overtures gave Vix “all the confidence in the world.”

4. Sexuality & Adolescence—Bold Judy Blume

• A listener’s discomfort with the frank sexual talk among teens gets addressed. Both hosts defend Blume’s realism:

  “This is how teenagers think and talk…not all of them. Of course, I never counted anyone’s pubic hairs when I was a kid, but I’m sure someone did.” – Sarah (15:08)

• Jon appreciates the equality with which adolescent sexual curiosity is depicted for girls as well as boys. (16:33)

5. Plot Structure, Nonlinear Revelations & The Love Triangle

• The hosts recount the pivotal events (the fateful birthday beach party, mix-up with Brew and Vaughn, Vix’s heartbreak after her brother’s death, Caitlin’s betrayal.)

  “When she calls Victoria to tell her...she goes, ‘Who are you marrying?’ She goes, ‘Brew, I thought you knew.’” – Sarah (29:01)

• They analyze the book’s shifting perspectives and open-ended storytelling.

  “There’s one chapter where it’s like—Sharkey’s only page in that chapter is just—it just says, ‘What did they expect?’ and then it goes on...” – Sarah (32:21)

6. Themes of Guilt, Envy, and Female Friendship

• The discussion focuses on the envy both women feel, even though it’s mostly unspoken on Caitlin’s part (18:00).
• Survivor’s guilt, family expectations, and the divergent paths of siblings are contrasted (23:36).
• Vix’s loyalty to Caitlin is attributed to both gratitude and emotional complexity:

  “Caitlin gave me this entire life in a way.” – Jon (34:58)

7. Caitlin’s Mental Health & The Ending’s Ambiguity

• The hosts muse on whether Caitlin’s globe-trotting, impulsive choices suggest untreated mental illness, noting changing times and how this would be more explicit in a current novel (39:51–40:23).
• They debate the ambiguous ending—did Caitlin die by suicide, meet an accidental death, or simply disappear to restart somewhere new?

  “It was almost like maybe she’s gonna pop up in 15 years. We don’t know.” – Jon (44:50)
  “The loudest and most beautiful and the people we envy are the most insecure.” – Sarah (45:25)

8. Most Memorable Elements, Minor Characters, & Takeaways

• Sarah praises Victoria’s dad (“real sweetheart”) and Lamb’s consistent kindness (45:42).
• Both hosts appreciate Judy Blume’s lasting impact, noting the way she captures the pain of changing friendships and growing up.

  “I think, you know, Judy Blume is incredible at making you go through sort of journeys of characters together.” – Sarah (47:00)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “If our marriage survives this podcast…” – Sarah (02:35)
• “It’s stupid because it [breast size envy] doesn’t matter. They’re all beautiful.” – Jon (17:48)
• “There’s a little bit of guilt over her younger brother… and she feels guilty because she was away for the summer when he got sick enough to pass away.” – Sarah (24:03)
• “Why does Vicks keep on going back to her? … she gave me this entire life in a way.” – Jon (34:58)
• “She left her own child… left him and left her in the arms of Lamb and Abby…” – Sarah (43:40)
• “I think there’s a very much a note of hinting to Caitlin having a mental illness here…” – Sarah (39:51)
• “This is the kind of book that… I’ll still be thinking about this book [in years].” – Jon (46:21)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Getting into Summer Sisters / Judy Blume’s legacy – 07:06
• Family backgrounds and initial impressions of the Vineyard – 10:10–13:41
• Sexual exploration and Blume’s frankness – 15:08–18:00
• Vix & Caitlin’s friendship: toxic but transformative – 33:05–36:22
• Major plot turns: betrayal, heartbreak, and the wedding – 29:01–33:26
• Ambiguous ending & mental health speculation – 39:51–44:50
• Final reviews & rankings – 46:11 onward

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Overall Tone & Style

• Conversational, candid, frequently humorous (“Run of the Roost—it sounds funny when you say it, though.” – Sarah, 11:55)
• Occasionally personal and heartfelt (Sarah relating to survivor’s guilt, 36:22)
• Balanced with literary insight (analysis of structure and multi-POV storytelling)

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Final Ratings & Wrap-up

• Sarah: “Six out of five martinis. I’m giving her an extra martini… with blue cheese olives in that bitch.” (46:11)
• Jon: Equally enthusiastic, predicting the story will “stick” with him like Where the Crawdads Sing.

“If you want to support us, join our Patreon… If not, please rate, review, and subscribe only if you have something nice to say.” – Sarah (47:59)

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Next Month’s Pick

• Gray After Dark by Noel Eiley (Sarah’s pick for August)

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For fans of nuanced friendship stories and nostalgic, sharply-observed coming-of-age fiction, this Book Lisp episode offers humor, heart, and an honest reckoning with Judy Blume’s Summer Sisters.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Sarah Colonna.

[B]

And I'm John Ryan.

[A]

And you're listening to the Book List. The Book List.

[B]

The Book Lisp.

[A]

Oh, that's right. You're listening to the Book Lisp. Hello and welcome to the Book Lisp with John Ryan and Sarah Colonna. Hi, John.

[B]

Hello. How are you?

[A]

I'm great. I'm in the ADU, where my office is. It's not really an adu, but it's an attachment to our house. But it's all included. Doesn't matter. It's a little warm back here because I forgot to turn on the air before I came back here. So it is 78 degrees in my office right now. And you're in the nice, cool part of the house where it's not 78 degrees.

[B]

I only turned it down to 73 over here in this part of the house. I see 74 actually turned it down, too. Upstairs is 78 right now. We got a heat wave going on right now. It's 96 degrees outside.

[A]

It's very warm.

[B]

It's almost Nicolet.

[A]

What's that?

[B]

98.

[A]

Oh, 98 degrees. Oh, good one.

[B]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

[A]

Yeah, we. It's very warm everywhere across the United States. I understand that. And in other parts of the world as well. I enjoy the heat, but I will say this one's gotten me a little bit as we walk around and. And as I forget to turn on the air conditioner in my office right before we record. So I'm. I'm. Listen, I'm glowing. It's called sweating. And we are here. It is week four of your July book list, which means we are about to fully discuss our thoughts and Summer Sisters by Judy Blume. Great pick, John.

[B]

I want to thank you.

[A]

Give you that. It's a. An older. Older, but a goodie. And I think it's really cool that you picked out a Judy Bloom book and also one from the 90s, which. When was it published?

[B]

1998, I believe.

[A]

I will say at the end. My. Go ahead. What?

[B]

When I was in 10th. 11th grade. 11th grade, maybe 10th grade, good. I graduated in 2000.

[A]

Congratulations. He's waiting for me to say when I graduated. You know what? I'm not going to.

[B]

I'm not.

[A]

No, I'm not.

[B]

I'm not playing these. I'm not. I'm not playing the game. Go ahead, talk about what you're going to talk about. Talk. A boot.

[A]

If our marriage survives this podcast.

[B]

You probably didn't.

[A]

Don't be crazy.

[B]

No. Just because we have to go to dinner after this.

[A]

Oh, yeah, we do have to go to dinner after this, don't you? Don't worry about that now. Okay. I will say we have some. I have some upcoming shows for those of you that are out and about. Want to see some comedy? I'm in Vegas next week, August 3rd through the 9th at Brad Garrett's Comedy Club in the MGM. I do one show every night. I. It's. It's so fun. So come see me if you're there. August 27th, I'm in Nashville at the City Winery. September 24th through the 26th, I'm in Batavia at the Comedy Vault. Amazing club. October 29th, I'm in Omaha at the Funny Bone, which is so fun. And then the November 12th at the Albany. Albany. Albany. It's Al. Al Albany.

[B]

I say it wrong, Elani. I think it's Albany.

[A]

Stop it. Albany. I. I was saying Albany before and someone corrected me, and then they apologize for correcting me. No, always correct me. I want to say your city. Right. Because people get weird about that.

[B]

Their own city.

[A]

Wrong. Well, everyone says Regina. He.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. We say it wrong. It should be Regina, but it's not.

[A]

It's Regina.

[B]

No.

[A]

And then I'm.

[B]

It's not knowledge. Look at it. Look at it.

[A]

Can I finish my dates? And then I'm in Columbus, Ohio, December 17th at the Funny Bone. There, it's all on Sarah Colona dot com. Doesn't it seem fun to come see me right now as I yell at John and he yells at me?

[B]

I've never yelled at you.

[A]

No. And then don't forget that Gray After Dark is our August pick. We. I have not picked out the Patreon short story yet, but that will be up probably by the time you hear this. I will have picked it out. But if you're on Patreon, we always do a short story on the 15th. It's such a good way to discover new authors. We have so much fun doing it. Yeah, we have. And we also do like our favorite authors and get to read something short by them. And then the 5th and the 25th of the month, we also do a Patreon. So it's only $5 a month. If you want to support us, join our Patreon. And big news that John and I decided the other day when we were recording our patreon for the 25th. So that came out, if you're listening to this, on Monday, our Patreon that came out on Saturday. We were realizing where we are in the packing order for our monthly picks. And we realized that I keep getting December. And by keep, I mean one year because that's. We've only been doing this for a year, but I get December and that doesn't seem right because John is Mr. December. He's Mr. December. He was Mr. He should have been Mr. December on the Seahawks calendar if they would have had still time. Right. So we decided that we're going to keep it the same. I'm doing August, he's doing September. I'm doing October. And then I'm going to do November

[B]

so that I can have December.

[A]

December. So heads up, December. Buckle up, buttercups. John Ryan is going to be in charge of the book list for December. I just feel like that's big. And you know what? I'll balance it out. I'll pick out a really up Patreon story for it. I've got a couple already bookmarked, like short stories. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That are a couple like dark Christmas stories. So. So I'll. I'll still pick the Patreon short story. I picked them all. And anyway, I feel like I picked

[B]

some early on and apparently I didn't do a good job because then you just like, oh no, I pick them now.

[A]

Oh no, you did a great job because you picked some really good ones on the short story to pick them anymore. I think I just stopped bothering you with it because you always seem so bothered by everything so hard done by.

[B]

I'm not hard done by. I. Okay. I'm not hard done by.

[A]

Let's talk Summer Sisters by Judy Bloom. I gotta tell you, it took me a second to get into this book, John, but mostly because I was trying to finish that freedom McFadden. The divorce book is divorce. I've been talking about this all month. Once I got into this book, couldn't put it down. Loved it. Was just really curious to see where it goes because I liked what I like. Listen, we all love Judy Blume. She's a. I mean I, I would say she's famous for being kind of a coming of age author.

[B]

She's a. She's America's Margaret Atwood.

[A]

Oh, okay. I like that.

[B]

In Kinnat Canada, we love Margaret Atwood. We just, we just, we, we lent her to you about 20 years ago. But we're going to take her back now.

[A]

What? Can we keep her at least?

[B]

You're welcome. You can keep Justin Bieber.

[A]

I love Justin Bieber.

[B]

I do too.

[A]

But no one from Canada wants really talented. He's super talented. If you.

[B]

He's super talented.

[A]

That Halim Show. I mean, I haven't even. Maybe we need to jump on the trend of doing a. A book list. Palelujah

[B]

like you. And she loves everyone.

[A]

That's such a good song. I feel like it's about your mom and all her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean all your exes, you know who wrote.

[B]

I think Ed Sheeran and Billy Blanco wrote that song.

[A]

Yeah. I don't. Or no. What's the other song? I don't Care whether With my Baby. Yeah, I think that was. That also sounds like it is Ed Sheeran and just.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't know. I might have just made that up. Anyway, can we get back.

[B]

Yeah, go ahead.

[A]

Judy Bloom, Summer Sisters I. I like that. It's. So what was interesting about this book is it starts with telling you that, right. Caitlyn's marrying Brew. And so the second that you find out that Victoria is dating Brew and obsessed with Brew and in love with Brew, throughout the book you're like, how the.

[B]

Where does this happen?

[A]

Where does this go? Why is Caitlyn with him? And, and, and, and then, you know, you kind of threw out them. You almost get your answer throughout it because you kind of know it's coming because she's. She kind of sucks, right? Caitlyn sucks.

[B]

She's an interesting character, interesting type of friend.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, she does great things for. For Victoria. Victoria has. Her mom is tough. Her family doesn't show emotion. That comes up a lot. Victoria doesn't show emotion. But. And Tawny, her mom, right? Tawny, yeah. Is. Is. She's a tough one. And, and Caitlyn's mom is a tough one. Phoebe, who basically when she separated from Dad's name. Lamb.

[B]

Lamb.

[A]

She. She basically said, you find out. She basically goes, well, we have a son and a daughter. I'll take the daughter, you take the son. Splitskies. I mean.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Super up. Way to figure it out. But. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. But, but Caitlyn loves going for the summers. It was one thing that was interesting at the beginning of this book was when Victoria is all excited to go with Caitlyn. She gets invited to be her summer best friend. And she kind of can't believe it. She's never been out of Santa Fe. And she's going to see the ocean. She's never seen the ocean. She's asking her mom, have I never seen the ocean? And they go to. Is it. It's Cape Cod, Right. I feel like an idiot right now. Yeah. And they go There. And she's basically like, this place is a dump. The house sucks. It's dirty. The mattress is dirty. Everything's dirty. So I never. I. I don't. I don't know what I missed, but in the beginning of the book, I never understood that Caitlin and Lamb and the family had money.

[B]

Right. That's. It's a very. It's. It's actually Martha's Vineyard. Right, Right.

[A]

But.

[B]

But anyways, it's like they have this place on Martha's Vineyard, and for Lamb, it's not a summer spot. It's where he lives year round.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so they made it sound like, oh, well, she's like. Almost like Vix is from the wrong side of the tracks. Now she's gonna go with Caitlyn, who's this mega rich person. And they get there and she's like, well, what? She's like, she's run around two weeks straight in the same underpants. Like, they don't shower. The house is in squalor, and I don't know if that was meant to be. Almost like they kind of live the summer just, like, however they want. They're kind of like free spirits. As if that's where Caitlyn's, like, free spirit came from, where lan was kind of like, whatever. It's like, you guys are here for the summer. Do what? Here's your brother who lives you year round, but you just kind of have the run of the roost. Run of the. Run of the Run of the Roost.

[A]

Run of the Roost. I think that's the saying. I think you got it. It sounds funny when you say it, though.

[B]

Yeah. It doesn't sound like a real word, but I feel like I. Because I was trying to figure out. Because the whole thing is kind of like, oh, she's going to this, like, rich family. And it's like, well, that's not what it felt like when it happened.

[A]

Right. When it. Ha. Well, because when it happened, I thought, oh, so that that was appearances. And they're also broke. But then when you find out later on, no, they're not. They're very well off. And then. And when he's with Abby and. And then his mom, like the matriarch or grandma, whatever it is. Grandma. Because the. His mom died.

[B]

Lamb's mom.

[A]

Yeah. No, but Lamb's mom died, and it's his. Wait. Because didn't his parents die in a car accident and then his grandma took care of him?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or am I conf.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Is that right?

[B]

Let's Go with that.

[A]

Sure doesn't. Listen, the family tree in this is big, but we have, once we find out they have money, I was just like, oh, I thought, I thought they were trying to say that she, she was going to be the, the kind of kid that pretended she had money and then when you got there, you found out she didn't and then she didn't want you to tell anyone, but then it turns out no, she does. That's how Caitlyn goes on to live this sort of free spirit life by. By having Lamb and his new wife, I guess, take care of him. Her. But anyway, I just thought that was an interesting sort of way to introduce, like how they lived.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where I thought they were going to be,

[B]

you know, mansion on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Vineyard. That it was going to be.

[A]

Yeah. But then, so I thought, oh, that means they're going to be broke. But then it was like, no, it wasn't then. Because then Abby comes along and they just fix up the house because she wants it fixed up. And Lamb's like, sure, do whatever you want. We have the money. So it was, it was just sort of. I wasn't sure what that dynamic meant, but now that you said it, maybe it was that purpose was to sort of set up that they just have this sort of free spirit living. And also with Sharkey, with the sun, her Caitlin's brother, they alluded to him making noises and being kind of awkward at times and then. And, and something about him making noises a few times they alluded to, talked about how he. Oh, he makes these noises when he sits there. There and this and that. So I thought maybe he was gonna have, I don't know, a spectrum or an autism or something or what. But then that just kind of went away as he got older.

[B]

Right. Because then it's like later on, like different universities are fighting to get him. Like MIT fighting to get him. So maybe they're, you know, actually, like a lot of people in Harvard, MIT are on the spectrum because.

[A]

Oh, totally.

[B]

So may. Maybe there was some like they're trying to say something like that. I don't know. Because that kind of went away pretty quick.

[A]

Well, yeah, and I don't. Of course you can be on the spectrum and, and in all the spectrums and be super smart and be in all the universities. I just mean in the book it went nowhere. In the book it was.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Oh, he grunts and groans at the table or he does this and that. But in the book it just kind of. They, they, she just kind of Dropped that. So there was just a couple things where I felt that they got dropped. But overall, the story we have Caitlin and Victoria. I know that someone in our book list. Book list. The Book List Spinners is our Facebook group. I know someone in there mentioned they felt a little bit weird about the sexual talk with teenagers, but that's kind of Judy Bloom's, right? She's our coming of age author. She's. This is how teenagers think and talk. And not all, all of them. Of course, I never counted anyone's peba cares when I was a kid, but I'm sure someone did. Yeah, maybe, maybe she did. And, and I, I think the, you know, they talk about their power and they obviously experimented with each other here and there. And then as they got older, it never quite left to Victoria's mind, right? She, she references even when I'm jumping all over here, but she references even when Caitlyn comes back from Spain and does her flamenco dance for her. She's like, oh, I pleasured myself thinking about how that dance could have ended, but only once. And the other times it was about brew. So I think there's just a lot of nods to sexual exploration, which I appreciate.

[B]

I, I personally, I love it because I feel like people do this thing. I think we still do it where they go, oh, oh, teenage boys are so gross. All they do is talk about sex. All they talk about, yeah, they do. But you know who else does? Females. And they have the right to do so. And so when people say like, oh, boys are so gross, it's almost like shade. It's sexist against men and women. Really? Cause you're basically saying like, oh, men are so gross. Or these teenage boys, so gross. Starts talking about sex all the time. And then it's like, but you girls are better than that, right? It's like, well, we're not better than that. We're not worse than that. We want to talk about the same things too. And I think this book talks about that. How it's like at 14 or 13, you're talking about your power or how many pubic hair you have because that's just a natural, normal thing to talk about.

[A]

And comparing your breast size, I mean, I can sure as I definitely. I was a, I was a slow grower, guys, and I don't have. Well, no, I don't, I don't have large. It doesn't really matter. I mean, the size of breasts. Everyone, everyone, I think everyone wants what they can't have. If you have small, you, you want Them bigger. And if you have them bigger, you want them smaller. Because, God, the back pain that comes with having them too big and people right there's just. Well, it's. No, no, no, it's not stupid because

[B]

it is stupid, because it doesn't matter. They're all beautiful. It's like whatever you got, you got. You have no control over it.

[A]

Oh, no, of course. Yes, that. I'm saying, yes, I appreciate that you're

[B]

stupid for thinking that.

[A]

No, but I'm just saying, I'm just saying that women with like really large breasts when they get older, have back problems and this and that and they wish that they, you know, so there's just all layers to all the different things. So I think seeing Victoria, who seemed a little more self conscious, but then she comes up with the big breasts and she gets her period first and she loses her while they thought she was going to lose her virginity first. And then Caitlin's like, well, I have small breasts, but I'm. I'm the sexy one and I'm the natural one and I'm this and that. Like all, you know, there's just this. There's like a weird layer of both of them kind of envying each other throughout. But Caitlin never admits to envying Victoria until the end of the book. Whereas Victoria, you can always kind of see she didn't envy maybe Caitlyn, but her life, like her, Liam and Abby and even she, she starts going there every summer and she starts feeling cared for and she's like, they're Summer daughter. She's not just Summer sister, she's their Summer daughter. They end up getting her, helping her get her into Harvard because they, they want to help her through all these things. And Caitlyn ends up, it seems resenting it towards the end, but Caitlyn didn't want it, so they couldn't write to her.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, that's interesting point that, yes, Caitlin never really wanted it, but I feel like there was almost like a competition between them that Caitlin didn't really care about. And she's like, if this happens first, it happens first. Whereas like Dick's or the other way around, sorry, Vic's like, I don't really care if this happens first. And Caitlyn's almost like, oh my God, I'm so jealous, dude. Now I'm gonna go make up a story to make sure that I beat you to the next finish line.

[A]

Yeah. And. And you see as their relationship grows and then right when, when Vicks does go to college and Caitlyn basically goes, I'm taking a year off. And she takes several years off. But she goes traveling the world, and she's having experience. Experiences. And she's defending herself, going, well, yeah, I'm not having a traditional life. I'm having experiences. And, hey, like, that's great, too. I mean, it sounds super fun. You got no problem with it. She's always checking in with Vix and saying, can you. Aren't you gonna come? Aren't you gonna visit me? Aren't you gonna come there? You're such a stick in the mud. This and that. And you could see where Victoria's like, well, but I'm at Harvard and I have to finish this paper. I can't really come to Spain for the summer or all these places on your whim. But. But there's kind of a balance where you see where both are, right? Where you're like, well, she should be able to go do something fun and see her friend. But also Caitlyn's completely just off the map at this point, doing whatever she wants. So I thought that was. It was a good, like, dichotomy, especially when you. Is that the right word? Whatever.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But when you. When you meet her friends in college, because his friends in college, and they kind of basically say, like, your friend's a wild card and you need to let that part of your life go. But you see where both can be true, right? But it can be. She can be taking her college too seriously and to. And not having fun, and Caitlyn can be going way too unserious with her life. So there could be a balance. So I like that about the book where there's sort of both are. Both are too extreme. I mean, K. Victoria is obviously the one that seems less extreme in your mind because you think, yeah, she's going to college, she's trying to get a job, she's trying to have a future. But at the same time, there's a little bit of a point where it's like, yeah, but are you having any fun? Are you doing anything?

[B]

But I think Caitlyn, Caitlin's or Vix's life arc takes, like, a normal thing where it's like she grows up and then she, like, goes to high school, and then she wants to be successful and she goes to Harvard and then she wants to get a job, she moves to the city and does all this stuff. Whereas, like, Vic's, Vix's life just kind of stays on a flat line in terms of. She's just what she's like kind of a wild child. She just wants to be a first. Caitlin, you mean?

[A]

Yeah, Caitlin.

[B]

Sorry. Caitlin's life is kind of like she's supposed to be a free spirit and wants to do whatever she wants to do. And then it's like, Vix would be like, well, like, Vix's new friends. Like, why do you keep on, like, carrying this girl along? Like, why are you still friends with her? And I think part of it's like, well, like, she gave me so much as a. When I was young. Like, she gave. She afforded me this new life that I have.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I was younger.

[A]

Wouldn't have it if it wasn't. Yeah.

[B]

And that's part of the reason. And she's like, also. But she was like my best friend since we were, like, 12 years old, and I can't just get rid of her. That's not how this works.

[A]

Right. And to your point, she's. She's like, I wouldn't have all this if I hadn't. If these steps hadn't been taken. And I guess we can all kind of look at that in our life and go, well, if this. If this opportunity hadn't come up, then I wouldn't have this. Or met this person through this person.

[B]

And Vicks even says that where she's like, I play the what sometimes at night, I just play the what if game. What if I had never been invited for. What if I never met Caitlin? What if she never invited me to the Vineyard for the summer? What if I never met Abby? What if I never met Brew? Like, all these things. All these things happened because she met Caitlin and she invited her to go for the summer. If that never happened, her entire life might take a totally different course. And I think where you really see that is where you see where her younger sister. What happened to her younger sister.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So the whole. In her back of her mind is like, well, my life could have been like, my younger sister who got pregnant, 17, now lives in a trailer park now, has bullet holes in the side of her freaking truck. Like, my life could have been that had not this one thing happened to me. And it took my life on a totally different trajectory.

[A]

100%. And she has a little bit of guilt over her younger brother, who is for sure with. Was it muscular.

[B]

Muscular dystrophy, I think.

[A]

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he. And so. And so he had a. Obviously was in a wheelchair and all these different. And then he dies young. And she feels guilty because she was away for the summer when he got Sick enough to pass away, but they didn't expect them to and all those layers. But I think you know, obviously this big the other than their friendship this big crux of the story of course is centered around brewing Victoria's relationship with Brew. Her being in love with Brew at a young age, having this just uncontrollable, just like cruel like lust and love and, and, and, and it, it just. And at the time Caitlin's with Vaughn and that whole time we think that I thought that Caitlin was having sex with Vaughn. We don't. She hasn't revealed until later that she actually never did. He didn't want to wear a condom. She wasn't as quote unquote wild as she wanted everyone to think she was. But those two are best friends and at. And they see them every summer. Every summer and every. Until they're basically legal to hang out with them. And Bruin. Victoria start hooking up. Caitlin Yvonne have been hooking up. They go to the beach one day for Victoria's birthday. 17th birthday. 17th birthday. They get su. Yeah, they were saying that was legal. I was like I think it's 18, but maybe this, maybe it was different.

[B]

Yeah. But in the, in the 90s, I don't know.

[A]

Anyway. Still seems illegal. Yeah, still seems like it's still crossing a line. But so, but she and and Brewer hooking up by that point and Victoria, I mean and Caitlyn and Vaughn are hooking up at that point and then they got super high on the beach and Victoria thinks that she's making out with Brew but then she kind of hears someone talk and I guess so I guess it was Vaughn, right? Yeah, Caitlyn. Yeah. It was just like a little. They left that. She left that a little vague. Judy Bloom like she left that little vague where she goes oh baby, oh baby. And then she goes wait, that's not Brew. And so then she like runs out to the ocean and then they save her from the ocean. And it is until much later that you're kind. Well, Brew comes to see her and says I don't care what happened with you and Vaughn. And she's like me and Vaughn? Nothing happened. What happened with you and Caitlyn? He goes nothing. And then. And then is until like much later that at the wedding for right. Caitlyn and Brew where you hear Vaughn actually he says oh, I keep thinking about that night. I've thought about that night on the beach for a long time. So I'm like okay. So it was. You know what I mean? Like it felt like it could have been. Was it Caitlyn? Was it a group thing? Was it this and that? But it seems like, okay, we're kind of confirmed, it was Vaughn coming on to her, whatever. And then she snapped out of it, realized it was him, got freaked out. Maybe everyone else realized that right away, but. But we never really found out if anything happened with Caitlin and Brew. But apparently it didn't that night. But it did after her, her brother Nathan passed away.

[B]

And right after she wasn't back on the Vineyard.

[A]

Yeah, and after she had, she had left the vineyard because she was pissed off at Caitlyn for that night. And then her brother died. And then a month later, Caitlin comes to see her. They basically, you know, they don't talk about it, they just make up because they. Now she's been through, Victoria's been through a tragedy and she says, just tell Brew I can't see him, but this is what happened. And we find out that Caitlin and Brew, that day or night, whatever, it was actually hooked up. And so I thought. So of course we're jumping around because if you've, if you're listening, you've probably read the book and if you haven't, you might be somewhat confused, but hopefully, hopefully you're following. But there's this up and down with, with Victoria and Bru, but at the end of the story, and at the beginning of the story, you find out Caitlyn's actually going to marry him. And she's been off running around, but then she comes back to the island and basically there's no, there's no real story about how they got together. She's only been there a couple months and they're already engaged. It says, and I'm sorry, I'm like ranting right now, but no, no, go ahead. But, but when she calls Victoria to tell her, yeah, you gotta be my maid of honor. I'm marrying, I'm getting married. She goes, who are you marrying? She goes, brew, I thought you knew.

[B]

And it's like, yeah, that was weird.

[A]

What do you mean I thought you knew, obviously. Why would, why would you think she knew? Why would you think she knew you guys were even dating? You clearly. So that was a cop out, I think, right? Yep, it was a cop out on her end of just going, oh, I thought you knew. Huh, Sorry. But, but it. And then I'm kind of jumping around, but just, I just want to get to a point. But then, so she, she's like, okay, I'm going to be your maid of honor. I'm going to suck it up. Doesn't matter. I've been broken up with Brew for a long time. And then she sees Brew the night before the wedding. They end up hooking up. And then she wakes up in the morning and she leaves and she's like, I don't want anyone to ever find out about it. So of course, as we're reading, we're thinking, is Brew going to call it off? Is Caitlyn going to call it off? Is Victoria going to tell Caitlyn what she did so that they call it off? And that's when Caitlin tells her. Victoria's not told her anything. She's not telling her that she slept with her now fiance the night before. But she basically, Caitlin tells her, oh, you didn't know I lost my virginity to Brew. You didn't know? You never guessed? And I'm like, well, why would she have guessed? Why would she even think that? And then she ends up telling her it was.

[B]

Well, because you told me you had sex with. You said sex? The ski instructor. When you went to wherever with your mom, all these guys.

[A]

Yeah, she, she had, she had said, oh, well, I was. No. She's like, no, you told me you lost your virginity with the ski instructor. And she goes, well, I just made that up. So then of course, now you're going backtracking. How much did she make up? How much is Caitlyn fantasized in her life that she's just making other people believe is true? How much is she embellishing? What is she doing? How crazy is she at this point? And how much is true? But just the one point I want to ask you, John, is because. So, so Caitlin says, I slept with Brew that night. Right? And I thought you knew. Blah, blah. It was after I told him that you weren't coming back. It just happens. And then Victoria never asks Brew about it. She's like, I don't even want to know. Maybe she was making it up. Like she makes other stuff up. But I don't even want to know at this point. Let them get married. Fuck it. I'm going to tell him. We're not talking about it. It's cool. Let them get married. I'm done. Like, this is where it ends kind of thing. And then, and then you hear Brew, Bruce perspective, which I love about this book, how it just goes, Sharkey, Drew, Gus, Daniel, you know, Victoria, Caitlin, like I love. There's one chapter where it's like Caitlin goes off or something. And, and Sharkey's only page in that chapter is just, it just says, what did they expect? And then it goes on to the next chapter. Like I love all those perspectives, but so you hear Bruce perspective and you do know he goes, oh, it didn't, I didn't mean for it to happen. But she told me that Victoria wasn't coming back. So it is confirmed right in the book that Bruin. Caitlyn did have sex when she said they did. But later, a few, a couple pages later, Caitlin asks Victoria, did you ask Brew about our night together? And Caitlyn lies or Victoria lies and says, yes. And Caitlyn says, well, did she he tell you the truth? And Victoria says yes. And then that's. And she goes, oh, I thought he would. I thought that was interesting. It was almost like it set it up if, if you hadn't heard Bruce perspective it. And I know that she obviously put it in there for us to know for sure it happened. But if you hadn't heard Bruce perspective, that conversation would have left that so open ended. And I thought that was interesting. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it is interesting. But I think that's why, obviously why she put it in there. But I just feel like this is just another example of why she's such a shitty friend where she's like, my friend's brother just died. The guy, the girl that you're dating's brother just died and she's not coming back. Let's fuck.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is what she did. My brother just died. Her brother just died.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean she has like, you could, you could argue that she's the worst friend in the world and sometimes she's the greatest friend in the world.

[A]

When was she a great friend?

[B]

When she went into this class where Vicks had very little confidence, was just like, wow, this is like the new girl. And this new girl who knew she had all this power, who she knew that every single girl in this class wanted to be best friends with her and she went up to this one girl and chose her. Or Caitlyn went up to Vix and said, basically, I choose you. I know that I have all this power right now. Why don't you come and hang out with me this summer? And that just gave Vix all the confidence in the world and set her on this path and kind of introduced her to someone that she kind of hated. But was Abby, who. Abby helped her get a scholarship to Harvard, get into a private high school, do all this stuff where I think

[A]

she ended up loving Abby. She thought she would. She wish she could have been her mom. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. So I think that's when she was a good friend. But boy, what I know she's. She's a bad friend 99% of the time. One of the worst friends in the world 99% of the time. But what. Like, it's what. But, but when we talk about that, we say, why does Vicks keep on going back to her? And I think it stems all back to that, the, the root of the whole thing where she's like, yeah, but I think that, like, Caitlyn gave me this entire life in a way.

[A]

Yeah. Because. So a little deep maybe here, but. But I think Victoria's character, we see sort of struggles with what I was told in therapy many years ago, it's called survivor's guilt. And this isn't. I, not. I didn't survive anything tragic, anything like that. But when you are the most successful one in a small family or quote, unquote, successful in, in people's minds. I'm not saying I'm the most successful person in my family by any means. I'm just saying when you financially and personally have better, quote, unquote, success in other people's minds to people that you grew up with or were around. So in this case, it would be Victoria and her siblings. You know, obviously her brother dies, but then her sister has the. Not that she has a shitty life, but she doesn't seem happy and her

[B]

sister doesn't help her whatsoever by keep on being like, oh, like telling her daughters or her kids, like, oh, like auntie, Victoria's rich and she has such a good life, but she doesn't give us the money because she spends it on herself when she's, like, struggling in. When she's just like struggling in the big city, trying to make it herself. Like when she has no extra money, but it's like, I'm not there back.

[A]

Yeah, she's like, I'm not rich. I'm just making it in this city. And I can, I can just relate to that aspect of Victoria's life because I went through that sort of on my own in my personal life with my sister and myself and sort. And going out and doing something on my own, but struggling the whole time. But everyone thought I was, like, shining because I had moved, but it's like, no, but I'm. I'm in hell here a lot too. Right. So. So I think that I liked that perspective of Victoria of if. Of, of she was grateful what. For what was given to her. And I think, yes, you're right. That's why she's never gonna let go of Caitlyn, but also all the experiences they had. And she did get to see life outside of this small world that she was given at first, just because her mom was like, you're not ever leaving Santa Fe kind of thing, which is fine too. But it just was. I don't know, it just. It felt like her. A lot of her relationship with Caitlyn was almost out of guilt or feeling like she owed something. But she truly loved her. I don't deny that. And I think had even mixed feelings about her in other ways, you know, sexually, romantically. I think they both did about each other, just because I think there's also

[B]

where they've been best friends since they were 12 and spent all these summers together and went to private school together and done all this stuff together. Whereas I think sometimes when people spend so much time together, they see a different person than people see when they go into big groups or going to the outside.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, she sees this, like, wonderful human being that's like. Has her back in private and like, I love you. They love each other. And sometimes they go in the public and they go into a bigger social setting. She's a piece of shit, right? Caitlyn?

[A]

Yeah. Selfish. Yeah.

[B]

Like, we've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours together, just her and I, and she's wonderful. And it's just maybe she's a little bit selfish on the outside.

[A]

Yeah. And I think, you know, with. With Caitlyn's almost repeating her mom. Right. Phoebe's a traveler and a. Like, she's like. Like I said, she's just split the kids up. She's like, I get the girl, you get the boy, whatever. They'll be fine. And. And Lamb is obviously very distraught when Caitlyn just becomes sort of. She goes from country to country to la. And then she experiences, of course, her. You know, they. She wrote this in the time where AIDS was a huge pandemic. Epidemic. Pandemic. I don't know words. Okay. Thank you. And. And she experiences loss with two gay friends. And. And then she goes on another. And then she's like this. And then she goes to a monastery, and then they can't get hold of her. And then she. And so she's. She's all over the place. And I think it's never really talked about or addressed, but I, I. Do you feel like there's a very underlying or not so underlying or maybe it's super obvious and I thought it was underlying. Do you think there's A very much a note of, of hinting to Caitlin having a mental illness here. Romantic thing. Or did I.

[B]

You know what? That's interesting you say that. I think that this being written in 1998, we weren't really that aware of it. We didn't really talk about mental health, mental illness very often. Whereas I think if this book was written last year, we would have definitely thought that right away.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Whereas reading this book in 1998, I don't think anyone would have thought that.

[A]

Interesting. That's a good point.

[B]

You know what I mean? I think there was a big difference between 98 and 2026 in how we address mental health and mental illness.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. Because I, I, I felt the whole time once she, once she left the island, Caitlyn, that is, and once she started just traveling and, and call me and do you want to come here? It sounded, it, it sounds very much like someone sort of struggling through mania almost, or manic episodes or something to where they're like, why you're not going to come to Rio. I'm in Rio and I'm not. And, but then also, you can just mix it with free spirit. Okay. So you don't know really where they're going. But then at the end, we get to the ends and she says, oh, I met another guy. And of course, Victoria is now onto her, where she's like, did she really meet another guy?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Did he really ask her to marry him? I won't know. But she's supposed to call me today and say if she's going to say yes or no. And she never calls her. And then we cut to. They're honoring her in a. Not a. They don't want to call it a memorial because they never found her body, but they're honoring her because she went out to her sailboat and never came back, and they never found her body. And so that's where I wondered if it, it was supposed to kind of allude that, okay, she's actually a very un, deeply unhappy person, so she did take her own life. Or, or I was like, or is she gonna pop back up out of the water at the end and be like, I'm here, you know? And even Victoria says that she's like, I don't see her.

[B]

Basically send me a plane ticket on her 40th birthday and say, come meet me. Whereas, what do you think about the ending? I kind of liked the ending. I thought it kind of left it way open. But however you deciphered the relationship, how Caitlyn was Where you're like, well clearly she's dead. She went into sailboat, she ran into rough weather or she maybe killed herself or she's had enough. Whatever it was, that's definitely what happened. Or you could be like, you know what? She's such a free spirit. She might just be on a frickin island somewhere with the fricking king of somehow the small country or just some guy she met or just whatever. And she's going to pop back up in a few years. And it's almost, I feel like it's almost kind of cool. That's the way Victoria thinks about it. She's like, well, who knows? Like yes, we all assume she's dead, but she might just pop up in a few years. Who knows?

[A]

That's what I did. Like I liked that. You know, we don't know. And I think it left you an interpretation for your own. Because my first interpretation was she finally for the first time confessed to Victoria that she was a piece of shit friend. That she was always kind of trying to take things from her. That's why she married brewing. I mean this woman left her own child. No looking back. Left him and left her in the arms of Lamb and Abby which she knew that she'd be safe there. But then also didn't even ask Victoria about her own child for the first few days. But then finally asked her but only on the last day that she saw her. She wanted to ask her about Maisie. Right. Was her name. And then, and then said, you know, I sucked, I was a bad friend. Basically kind of confessed all these things. So almost when you get to from at first, when you get to where we find out that she's gone. I think, oh, she took her own life because she basically got to almost come clean about a lot of things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then this was her sort of swan song moment in her own mind. But then I thought or she's like I'm just going to disappear now that I've admitted all this or I, I, it, it is open very much to I almost. That's why I was asking you on the way home because we never talk about the book until we get here. But I did ask John. I was like when was this written again? Because I almost was like we're summer sisters too. Where she pops up out of the water. Let's, you know. So I don't know. I, I liked the ending because it didn't end. It wasn't sad per se. You know, it wasn't right. I mean it's Sad. But it wasn't.

[B]

It was. It was almost like maybe she's gonna pop up in 15 years. We don't know. But if she died, she died. Does it. Doing. Being the free spirit that she was.

[A]

Yes. On her terms. And what she wanted is. Is how you felt about it. Or like. Or. Yeah. Or just because she was being a free spirit and the water took her away and it wasn't her. It wasn't intentional, but she. She was soaking up the sun and loving every second up until it happened. So I do think it. There were times that she was super unlikable, but she was also just so insecure. You know, sometimes the most. The loudest and the most beautiful and the most people that we envy are the most insecure. Right. And so I thought that was well pointed in this book. I feel like we're being very serious about this book. But I'm liking it.

[B]

I like it. It was good. So what was your overall? Are you ready to rank it? Are you ready to do your review? Your.

[A]

I think so. I think we've kind of covered everything. Right. All that. I. I want to say that I love Ed. Was that the dad I love? Victoria. If I got the name wrong, I'm sorry. But Victoria's dad. Real sweetheart. Yeah. Just doing the best for his family that he could. Love that guy. Yeah. And lamb, too. And I'm going to. I'm going to surprise you.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[A]

I'm going to surprise you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm. I'm going to give her. I'm going to give her a six out of five Martini. Wow. I'm giving her an extra martini. Shaking it, putting a couple cheese olives in it.

[B]

Wow. Blue cheese olives in that bitch. 11 and a half out of 12. There's a lot of books. Even though I really love a book there. It's a book that I'll read and I'll love it, but I won't think about it again. Really. I think I'll, like, a year or two from now, I'll still be thinking about this book. Just like where the Crawdads Sing. I still think about that book. What was that book? I couldn't think of the name of it. Letters to whatever that I read the other day.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

I'll think about that book for a long time. So this is the kind of book that it'll still enter my mind every once in a while when I think about it or think about something.

[A]

Agreed. I think, you know, Judy Blume is incredible at making you go through sort of Journeys of. Of characters together. And I thought you really went through these. These girls journey, their life's journey.

[B]

The pain of Golden. Sorry, Theo of Golden was the book. Sorry.

[A]

There you go. The pain of what it can be like to grow older and not even older, just high school to college, but just to grow apart. I mean, you think about all this by the. By the time I think Victoria goes to visit Caitlyn, and she's pregnant and married to Gus, which of course, was also awesome, by the way. It's hard to get to everything here, but it. It was like she was still only in her 20s, you know?

[B]

Yeah, right. Everything happens because at the very end she's like, well, maybe someday on her 40th birthday, she'll just call me. I was like, well, what, you guys aren't even 40 yet? So much.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, by the. When she goes to see her. Under 30. Yeah, it's her 30th. When she goes to see her where she. Where they never see her again. So. So they're all. They're just so young, but. But the journey of all the different things you can go through in life and all the pain that you can go through with a. A friend and the changes I just thought was, like, beautifully done. So I loved it. I really did. I love it. So, yeah. So August, we're back to getting real dark with Gray After Dark. Noel Eiley, My pick. Join us on the Book List Spinners on Instagram or the Book List on Instagram Book List Spinners Facebook group. Join us on Patreon. We have a ton of fun over there with our short stories and then two other episodes a month that we do randomly. It's only five bucks if you want to support us. If not, please rate, review, and subscribe only if you have something nice to say. And we'll see you next Monday.

[B]

All right, See you guys.

[A]

The Book list.

[B]

The book lisp.

[A]

The book list.

[B]

The book lisp.

[A]

The book List.