Can God's Love Be Real? What If My Real Dad Was Just Abusive?

Summary

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The Candace Cameron Bure Podcast

Episode: Can God's Love Be Real? What If My Real Dad Was Just Abusive?

Guest: Pastor Francis Chan

Date: March 31, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this deeply heartfelt episode, Candace Cameron Bure welcomes renowned pastor, author, and speaker Francis Chan for a candid, vulnerable discussion on experiencing God's love—especially when earthly relationships have left profound wounds. They explore how our understanding of God's love is shaped by personal stories, including Francis's harrowing childhood and Candace's own experiences. The conversation aims to encourage listeners to reflect on the nature of God's love beyond intellect or good theology, inviting an honest reckoning with pain, faith, and hope.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Impact of Upbringing on Understanding God’s Love

• Candace introduces the season focusing on deeper spiritual growth, launching with a six-week conversation with Francis Chan.
• Francis's new book "Beloved" becomes a springboard for discussing how even strong believers can struggle to fully grasp God’s love.

Quote ([10:44] B):
“But then to think that he has so much love and desire for me, that's just a lot harder for me to believe. I can believe in someone way beyond me. But then you tell me what he feels about me, like, what the scriptures say, and that he's jealously desiring, you know, this spirit that—the me. You know, like, he wants all of me, that. I don't know if it was my upbringing or just human nature. I don't know.” —Francis Chan

• Candace shares that her understanding of God’s love was shaped by a loving, supportive family, while Francis’s was marked by loss and abuse.

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2. Francis Chan’s Testimony: From Rejection to Acceptance

• Francis recounts profound trauma: his mother died giving birth to him, his father rejected and abused him, and he experienced being an unwanted child passed among relatives.

Quote ([16:58] B):
“And then my siblings don't want me. Like, who's this kid? ... My dad was remarried and my stepmom again, it felt like, okay, seems like she cares. And then when I was 7, she got in a car accident and she died. And so now I'm left with my dad, who is just... the beatings for, like, anything I did wrong.” —Francis Chan

• Francis describes his eventual relief at his father’s passing at age 12—a mixture of sadness, confusion, and freedom from fear.

Notable Moment ([17:58] B):
“I just remember vividly one time... him tying me to the tree and just grabbing branches off the ground and just hitting me till they break. And I’m just screaming... it gets to a point where you can't make any noise anymore.” —Francis Chan

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3. How Pain Shaped Faith

• Despite suffering, Francis explains that God's promise to be a “father to the fatherless” became real; his story became one not of resentment but of providence.

Quote ([25:42] B):
“That’s the crazy thing... when the Bible says God will be a father to the fatherless, that's not just a cute phrase, like, he really became my dad. ... Seriously. Even the deaths of my parents, I go, God, you caused me to immediately, like Psalm 90 says, teach me to number my days that I may gain a heart of wisdom.” —Francis Chan

• Francis expresses concern for his own children, worrying loving parents might stop them from realizing the special comfort that comes only from dependency on God.

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4. Sitting in God’s Love Versus Doing for God

• Both Candace and Francis confess that it’s easier to “do” for God (serve, obey, strive) than to truly rest in His love.

Quote ([30:07] B):
“I love being productive, so I love crossing things off a list... And so to check off these lists and feel productive, but then to sit and meditate on how much he loves you, it’s very easy to feel like that’s a waste of time.” —Francis Chan

• Francis compares sitting with God to sitting on a beach with a loved one—sometimes, the value is simply in being together, not accomplishing.

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5. The Tension of God’s Wrath and Love (Listener Q&A)

• Listener Vicki asks about reconciling God’s anger and love, especially confusions arising from Old Testament stories where God becomes angry with Israel.

Question Read by Candace ([33:06] A):
"This part of scripture feels like God just found out how rebellious the Israelites were, and now he really is angry and he's gonna punish them. This rubs me the wrong way that a God who is love would destroy his own people. Frankly, it scares me and makes me afraid of him at times." —Listener Vicki

Francis’s Response:

• Francis points to Isaiah 55: God’s thoughts and ways are higher than ours.
• We will not understand everything about God’s actions or emotions; divine anger is not like human anger.
• God’s sovereignty includes mystery—stories (such as Moses interceding for Israel) are not just theological puzzles to solve, but invitations to reflect on God’s character and the power of prayer.

Quote ([34:09] B):
“There are a lot of things I read in this book that I personally don’t like because it’s not the way I think. ... But so that side—I just think logically, I get it: you’re almighty God. But then to think that a being that powerful is looking at us right now—like, right now, looking at us going, love those two. I’ve loved those two ever since they were born. ... Those types of thoughts didn’t enter my mind back then. And now it’s like my whole life is centered around that.” —Francis Chan

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6. Reconciling Opposite Aspects of God’s Character

• The hosts reflect on how God can be both a righteous judge and endlessly loving; as finite humans, we can only meditate and wonder—sometimes without answers.

Quote ([43:41] A):
"That's what Full House was all about. Yeah, it's a great sitcom. You package it up with a bow, and there's a happy ending. That's what we all want.” —Candace Cameron Bure

• Francis notes that in Scripture, stories are rarely packaged that way; they’re complex, open-ended, and designed for contemplation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On realizing the depth of God’s love:
  “It's like, I know God loves me. I believe that without a shadow of a doubt that God loves me. ... But I just haven't given it much thought to the depths of that love.” —Candace Cameron Bure ([29:10] A)

• On vulnerability:
  “I have deep respect for you. ... I don't want to start crying already, Francis, but...the fact that you would come here and be on the podcast and share with me and have these conversations, take the time to do that means a lot to me.” —Candace Cameron Bure ([04:33] A)

• On the experience of answered prayer:
  "I still have some of those journals from high school...My wife found an old journal, and I hear [her] in the other room just laughing...cause there were some really stupid ones, like about girls or whatever." —Francis Chan ([24:13] B)

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Important Timestamps

• [04:07]: Francis Chan joins the episode, recalling their shared church history.
• [09:47]: Transition into talking about Francis’s new book and its focus on God’s love.
• [15:09]: Candace invites Francis to share about his upbringing and how it impacts his view of God.
• [16:58]: Francis shares the trauma of his abusive childhood and losing both parents.
• [22:54]: Reflection on his early spiritual experiences and journaling answered prayers.
• [25:42]: Francis unpacks how God "fathered" him through suffering.
• [28:33]: Discussion about the challenge of resting in God’s love versus resting in parental love.
• [32:32]: Listener Q&A on God’s anger and Old Testament passages.
• [34:09]: Francis addresses reconciling God’s wrath and love.
• [43:41]: Comparing life’s complexities with “Full House” story arcs—accepting mystery in God.

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Takeaway Themes

• Childhood trauma and pain can block or deepen our understanding of God's love—everyone's journey is unique.
• Experiencing God goes beyond "knowing the answers" to entering relationship, acceptance, and awe.
• Reconciliation of God’s justice and mercy is not always available in neat answers, but is an opportunity to meditate, wonder, and trust.
• The discipline of sitting with God in love—without agenda or busyness—is vital and countercultural.

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Closing

This episode lays a powerful foundation for the season’s focus on God’s love, especially for those who struggle with trust due to painful histories. The vulnerability of both host and guest creates a safe space for listeners wrestling with their own questions about faith, suffering, and belonging.

Next week: Deeper dives with Francis Chan into practical and theological questions of living beloved by God, regardless of one’s past.

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For more listener questions, episode extras, and community discussions, visit candace.com.

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Transcript

[A]

Before we begin today's conversation, I want to give you a heads up. We will be talking about some sensitive subjects. This episode is intended for mature ears, so please listen with this in mind.

[B]

I found an old journal I hear in the other room just laughing, just look at your prayers and she's just dying. But it was just that was like the start of seeing God answer these prayers.

[A]

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[B]

So good to be with you.

[A]

You too.

[B]

This is seriously fun for me.

[A]

Is it?

[B]

Yes, it is. Because it's. I know. Just coming over here, I'm thinking, this is so cool. Who would have thought that we'd be doing this? I mean, just remembering you growing up at the church.

[A]

I know.

[B]

And your parents and everything else. I just. Everything we've been through many years. And now here we are.

[A]

Here we are. I know. I have to say, I'm a little nervous having you here because I. I respect you so much and I don't want to start crying already, Francis, but I have. I just have. I have deep respect for you. And so the fact that you would come here and be on the podcast and share with me and have these conversations, take the time to do that means a lot to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So thank you.

[B]

No, it's an honor. I. And I don't do very many of these.

[A]

I know you don't. That's why. I know it's a really big deal.

[B]

That's why I talked to Lisa. I'm like, should I do this thing? And she goes, you have to do it. It's Candace. And. And then I just started thinking back. Oh, yeah, of course. I mean, I know you weren't that little, but I just. I always thought you were like this little kid. Because you looked like a little kid.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I remember one time, I'm still the

[A]

same height as I was when we

[B]

first met, but you looked like you were 7, 8 years old and you were probably a teenager.

[A]

I was.

[B]

And. Exactly. And I remember just thinking, okay, is that girl lost you know, do you know where your mom is? And she goes, yeah, I'm actually, you know, you told me you age at that time. And I'm like, I'm so sorry. I thought you were one of the kids in the kids ministry that got lost.

[A]

She's so funny. Yeah, I, I, Chalene. Some of my listeners know Chalene, Bryan. Chalene's a good, really close mutual friend, which is really how I met you. And Chalene was on tour with me last year. And so yeah, Shaleen. Shaleen was this pivotal person in my life that during those late teenage years, she was the one friend that was like, how's your relationship with God?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And which was pretty much non existent. I mean, I believed in God, but I wasn't reading my Bible, didn't go to church, and she would lovingly push me. And that's when she's like, well, if you're not going to church, you should come to church with us. And so I started going to Cornerstone and hearing you. And aside from my church as a young, like a 12 year old, which was Calvary Chapel.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Then in my mid to late were my later teenage years, I started going to Cornerstone and you were really the first pastor that I listened to and started to understand the depths of sermons which sparked my relationship with God and started to change everything. So you're very instrumental in that way in my walk with God.

[B]

Thank you. That's so cool. I mean, I'm thinking back and remembering meeting Val for the first time going, I don't know about this guy.

[A]

Was that at a marriage retreat?

[B]

Yes, yes. And I still don't really know about this guy, but no, I love him, but it was just to see where you guys are now. And I think that was the main thing that drew me here was like, not a lot of people make it. Like so many people that I just really loved in those days, their lives kind of fell apart and they distanced themselves from God and it's so sad. So that's, it's been so fun meeting your kids and go, wow, that's awesome. You know, just hearing about their walks with the Lord and out of their mouths, it's like, ah, yeah, this is, it's the best.

[A]

I know, it is the best. And I'm just, I'm, I'm so grateful. I, you know, you sent me your new book.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Beloved.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't know if, you know, you sent it to me. You did write something inside. It was like Candace and Val, they

[B]

give me like a list and then

[A]

I just like, I know I do the same thing.

[B]

I hope I wrote something nice.

[A]

It was very nice. Nice. And so I read it and I read it quickly because it is a bite sized book, which I really appreciate it because I actually read the whole thing.

[B]

Okay, good.

[A]

I have a. I have a bad habit of getting three quarters of the way through and then never finishing a book.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what struck me so deeply in reading Beloved was that your ministry over the years has again been greatly impactful to me because you've talked so much about holiness and sin and wrath and judgment and all the things that I feel like there are a lot of pastors that are afraid to talk about and don't hold this deep reverence for God. And it's more like, Jesus is my homeboy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Type of preaching. And so that has greatly ministered and has made me think my whole life about my relationship with God in the most holiest of ways. So when you write this book that then says, hey, I have done, I have worked, I've lived my whole life to love God.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

As much as I possibly can. And then in the next breath say, but I didn't really understand the depths of God's love for me was like, it felt mind blowing and relatable because I, I have really liked your preaching because I'm a lady of truth. Like, I like the truth. I like black and white. Give it to me straight.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

And, you know, I feel like, oh, I can deal with the hard things if I just know what the truth is.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And to receive love and to sit in it and to rest in it feels more challenging to really know it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so you, you write this book and it doesn't, it feels very cohesive, honestly, in my mind, of the things that you've written in the past. But it was shocking to me that the way you explained it in the book and correct me if I'm wrong, that you, you never could understand the depths of God's love for you. And yet I look at you as one of the most faithful servants. Like, how could you not know God's love for you?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's one of those things where I hope I didn't overstate in the book, but it's. I'd kind of waver in and out of it. Like, I know it, but I just gravitated towards those things that no one was talking about. Or maybe it's just easier for me to understand and accept. Like, I have no problem understanding that there's a God who's just so far beyond me, and he gets to judge. He. He determines what's right or wrong. Who am I? I. It's. I don't know. For some reason, that's very natural for me. I go, if someone spoke me into existence, like I was just a thought in his mind, and if he never thought that thought, I wouldn't exist. Okay, so that's a pretty big gap between he and I. But then to think that he has so much love and desire for me, that's just a lot harder for me to believe. I can believe in someone way beyond me. But then you tell me what he feels about me, like, what the scriptures say, and that he's jealously desiring, you know, this spirit that the me. You know, like, he wants all of me, that. I don't know if it was my upbringing or just human nature. I don't know. Like, some people have a really hard time believing God would judge people. To me, I go, that makes perfect sense. He can tell me what's right and what's wrong and tell me, I ought to do this, and then tell me, you shouldn't have done that. He can do whatever he wants.

[A]

He's God.

[B]

Yeah, he's God. Like, that's very easy for me. For some people, they go, no, he shouldn't have the freedom to judge. I should be in charge. I'm like, that doesn't make any sense to me. But so that side. I just think logically, I get it. You're almighty God. But then to think that a being that powerful is looking at us right now, like, right now, it's looking at us going, love those two. I've loved those two ever since they were born. I saw her in those late teen years in that church, and he was watching you right then and loving you and going, oh, I just want. I just want to get so close to her. Like, really. And he's saying that to me, like, looking at me at those days and going, oh, I just want Francis to really know my love. I just. I want to get so close to him. Those types of thoughts didn't enter my mind back then. And now it's like my whole life is centered around that.

[A]

It's incredible. Those thoughts didn't enter my mind that much either.

[B]

Yeah,

[A]

not to the extent that I know that. I mean, I try to understand the depths of God's love, but it's not something I just have thought about that much. I also think, too, which is very different from your story. About how you grow up. I have felt love from my earthly father, from my dad. Can you share a little bit about your upbringing?

[B]

And that's good to hear because, you know, you always. You guys always look like a loving family. Like, seeing your mom and dad, it's all real, Francis.

[A]

It is real.

[B]

Well, yeah, because so many times I've seen that before. And then you realize what they're really about, and I'm like, what the heck? And. And to hear you say that you felt that, and it's. It's very much like my daughter, you know, writing the book with me. Gosh, we have such a different perspectives. I go, honey, at the moment you were born, I was crazy about you. I've always been crazy about you. I mean, you're almost 30, and I'm just in love with you. We still go out and shoot baskets or whatever. I'll just stare at her and go, oh, God, I love this girl. Like, that's all you've known.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then for me, you know, my mother died giving birth to me. And so my dad just didn't even didn't want me and gave me up for adoption. And so the moment you're born into the world, the one person that would have loved you, your mother died. And now your dad resents you because you killed my wife. And so I don't want him. And so you're this baby. And he had a woman that was going to adopt me. No clue who she was. And. But my grandmother ended up taking me away to Hong Kong and raising me until she was too old. And then she gave me back to my dad, who didn't want me. He's got three other kids now, and it's like, I don't want him, but I'll take him. And it was very clear. And then my siblings don't want me. Like, who's this kid?

[A]

How old were you when you went there?

[B]

I was five. And so I had two older siblings and one younger half sister. But I was interrupting their lives. I didn't even speak English at the time. So they're telling secrets in English and I don't know what's going on, but suddenly, here's this bratty kid coming from Hong Kong. We have to accept him as her brother. Now. My dad was remarried and my stepmom again, it felt like, okay, seems like she cares. And then when I was 7, she got in a car accident and she died. And so now I'm left with my dad, who is just the beatings for, like, anything I Did wrong. It was just. It treated me so differently than my siblings. And I just. That's all I can remember of him. I mean, never spoke. We never had a single conversation. I just remember vividly one time. And I did bad things. I was a kid. I was probably a bad kid. But I remember him tying me to the tree and just grabbing branches off the ground and just hitting me till they break. And I'm just screaming till to, you know, it gets to a point where you can't make any noise anymore. Oh, you know, just like welts all over my body and I'm tied to this tree. And then he just walks away. And it's getting dark. I don't know if I'm supposed to untie myself. I. I don't, you know, those types of things. And so then when he died, I was about 12. It was like, oh, good, I don't have to. Like, I hated coming home from school. If I could have just stayed at school and I would have been thrilled. Like, I just never wanted to come home. I just. When he died, there was a sadness because it's like, okay, I'm confused now. What happens? And he had just gotten married for the third time and I'm gonna be living with this woman. And I don't know, it's weird to not have a dad. But the other side was just so relieved. Like, oh, I can breathe. And so that's all I know of a dad. And then I'm reading the Bible and you accept it because it's God's word. But to know that he loves me, to have an authority figure like that, any authority figure, to love me was a weird thought. But then when you go, no, him. Holy God loves you and he's always loved you and he is so crazy about you right now. Like, okay, you know, that's what it says. I'll accept it.

[A]

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[B]

not? We had gone to church, but I believed there was a God. I think even as a I still, my earliest memory was at a Buddhist temple in Hong Kong staring at statues. You know, I was four or five years old, and I would try to talk to them, and I would, like, stare at their mouths, like, hoping they'd say something back. Hello, you know, so there was something as a kid, like, I, I, there's something. And, and then after my parents died, some friends took me to a youth group and. And the youth pastor there taught me how to read the Bible. And I really began praying, and he would tell me, God will answer you. In fact, write it down. I still have some of those journals from high school. He says, write down what you prayed for. And then on the next page, write the date when it's answered. And it was like, whoa, this really works. It was crazy. And my wife found an old journal, and I hear in the other room just laughing. I'm like, what? She was looking your prayers. Because there were some really stupid ones, like, about girls or whatever.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

Like, God, tell me, should I date several girls at once, or is it okay? Do you want. And she's just dying. Yeah, but it was just. That was like, the start of seeing God answer these prayers. And he did say it was okay to date multiple girls at once. That one wasn't really answered, but it was just funny. But it was also, like, amazing. Like, God, have me meet someone today. Or I'm praying for this guy I met on the basketball court. And the way he would just supernaturally answer. That's kind of how it all started for me.

[A]

When did you come to the U.S. i was five.

[B]

I was a little kid.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. Got it.

[B]

Yeah. So I was shipped to Hong Kong as a baby. So my passport. I'm like, two weeks old. And.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then I came back to the US When I was around five.

[A]

Got it. Now I understand. Okay. Wow. So. Well, there's so many places I can go. I didn't know. I. I didn't know quite the depths of that relationship with your dad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you were young. So that's.

[B]

Yeah, it's hard to hear that it is, but it's. It's like, I really don't have any regrets. That's the crazy thing is, you know when the Bible says God will be a father to the fatherless, like, that's not just a cute, you know, phrase, like, he really became my dad. And, you know, I'm realizing I didn't know the depths of his love, but I look back and really go, wow, he really did set everything up in my life, even in my childhood. And I don't have any regrets from my childhood. Wow, that was a great childhood. Seriously. Even the deaths of my parents, I go, God, you caused me to immediately, like Psalm 90 says, teach me to number my days that I may gain a heart of wisdom. And so as a kid, I always knew my days are numbered. You know, I'd go to bed at night, like, gosh, I just saw my stepmom in a casket. And, okay, I don't know if I'll be here tomorrow. Oh, there's my dad now. Now he's six feet under. Okay. I really don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. I better know what. You know, I, I, I got serious about the things of God and I can look back and go, wow, Then you put this person in my life, then this person, and then this person. And it doesn't even make sense. Why would this person befriend me? Why would that, like, it's, it's bizarre, but it's the love of God. And I actually tell my kids, I go, I get a little sad for you. I sometimes think you might be missing out on something that I got to enjoy, which was the way God provided for me and cared for me. He's all I had. I said, I'm concerned that your dad loves you so much that you'll get so much from mom and dad's love that you won't get the same dependence that I had. And I really see that as an advantage. I really do get concerned, like, ah. I think they rest in my love so much. I'm scared they don't understand how much better his love is.

[A]

And I relate to that very much, having a great relationship with my dad and my mom. And I think that's a big reason why I haven't really sat in the love of God. I'm like, yeah, God loves me. Like my parents loved me. And it's great. I know he loves me.

[B]

Yeah. And it's supernatural, though. That's why there's some miracle that has to happen for everyone. I don't care if you had the best upbringing or the worst upbringing. And there's people who've had it way worse than I have. And it equally takes a miracle for us to finally go, it's crazy about me.

[A]

Well, that was the relief in reading each. I mean, just the introduction of the book, Francis. It's like crazy. I was crying after the introduction.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But that's because of, because of truth and holiness and those things being so important in my life. I was like, I know God loves me. I believe that without a shadow of a doubt that God loves me. I really do.

[B]

Good.

[A]

But I just haven't given it much thought to the depths of that love. And that's why the book was like, I've never spent time thinking because I just feel like I inherently know it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That because my parents have loved me. And that's why it really captivated me from the start. And I'm like, I bet there's even so much more love that I have no idea. I don't even know what I'm missing out on because I've never thought about the depths.

[B]

Yeah, it's it. And for people like me. And I don't know if you're the same way, but I, I love being productive, so I love crossing things off a list. I love, like, okay, it's 9:00am and I've already got so many things done is so awesome, you know, and. And in today's world, there's so many things that you can do so quickly. And so to check off these lists and feel productive, but then to sit and meditate on how much he loves you, it's very easy to feel like that's a waste of time.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, what's that going to accomplish? Because you don't. We don't see this as a relationship. It's almost like, well, I'm not going to go sit on the beach with my wife. What's that going to accomplish? It's not supposed to accomplish anything. It's just life. It's love. I just, I wish she was here right now. I wish we were sitting on a beach right now and just hanging out, doing nothing. And then when you start understanding that about God, like, he wants to sit there with you. And it can be the greatest, like, beyond a human relationship, to sit there and go, oh, my God, gosh, you're just loving on me right now. And I feel it, I sense it, I know it from the core of my being. I don't want to leave, I don't want to go anywhere. I don't want to do anything else. I just want to sit here. And then you go, oh, that's what the Scriptures meant when he says, this is the one thing I ask, that I could just dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, and to gaze at his beauty in the temple. And it's like the psalmist is just saying, I gotta have this every day. This is so good. I just want to sit here with you, tell you how beautiful you are and just enjoy you and have you minister to me in these mysterious ways. It's just the best.

[A]

Yeah, it's incredible. Well, we've got five more weeks of these conversations, so this is just a preview of what we're going to talk about. And I mean, my heart is already so full.

[B]

Good.

[A]

We always take listener questions on the show, so let's, let's take one. Great. Okay. So, Francis, because you're here, we're giving you the Bible questions and the theology questions that I can't always answer.

[B]

Let me just preface. So I don't see myself like this Bible scholar Okay. But anyways, go for it. It.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm probably a little better than you.

[A]

I hope you're a little better than me. This is from Vicki. And this is a. This is a.

[B]

A little.

[A]

A little lengthy one. Okay, so.

[B]

All right.

[A]

She writes, I know that God is good, but I do get confused when it said that God is slow to anger. I remember that Moses especially or specifically intervenes for the Israelites when God wants to destroy them. And Moses defends the Israelites. This is confusing. And frankly, it scares me as it does show that God is angry. I'm confused because if God is sovereign, would he not know that the Israelites were going to be rebellious? And if he does know, why, would he become angry and wanting to destroy them if he knew that they were gonna act this way? This part of scripture feels like God just found out how rebellious the Israelites were, and now he really is angry and he's gonna punish them. This rubs me the wrong way that a God who is love would destroy his own people. Frankly, it scares me and makes me afraid of him at times.

[B]

Wow, that's a great question.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You didn't want to take that one? You can. No, that is really good. Let me. Let me say a few things. First of all, you know, Isaiah 55 says that, you know, your thoughts are not like my thoughts, your ways are not like my ways, because as high as the heavens are above the earth, that's how much higher my thoughts are than your thoughts and my ways than your ways, says the Lord. And he says that about, you know, it's in the context of something very. That we would see as a real blessing about how he forgives. And he's like, no, you don't understand. That's the way you think down there. And so right off the bat, though, he says, the way you think is not the way I think. My ways are so much higher. And we always have to start there and go, okay, God. There are just things I won't understand. And the anger of God, the wrath of God is one of those things that for most of us, I go, wow, that's really intense. Now, there are a lot of things I read in this book that I personally don't like because it's not the way I think. I go, well, I don't get that angry. Why would God get that angry if he's so much better than me? And yet he talks about, well, because man's anger and God's anger, it's two different things. He has every right. And he goes See our anger. We're called to. To be angry, but not sin. Or. And. But he's a God who says, vengeance is mine. I will repay. And then he says, don't you do that, though. Don't you show. Don't you take revenge. And it's like, well, that's not fair. He's got these rules, and I got different ones, right? Yeah. Usually the creator and creation get two different rules, you know, and there's. There's things where I go, God, why? I mean, you. Right from the beginning, you see God flooding the earth and killing everyone in it. It's like, oh, I wouldn't have done that. And then you just save Noah and his family. And then Noah doesn't seem that great, you know, after the flood, you're like, whoa, what's that all about? There's some weird things there, and it's. We gotta understand. There's just certain things that God puts in scripture, and we have to dig it out and try to figure out what does he want me to learn from this. I mean, there are certain things about God that I go, yeah, I'm afraid, too, Vicki. There is a fear of God. There is this gap, and there is this. I'm under this God now. For me, like, what that book is about, it's like, gosh, even though I may not agree with some of those things, I just go, okay, your mind is beyond your mind. And so you'll explain things in the end that. I just have faith you're a good God. I look at the cross like I would never have thought to. Like, that seems very unfair to me. You know, if you want to talk about what doesn't make sense, what doesn't make sense to me is, okay, if I've sinned against you, you have a right to be angry and a right to punish me. But instead, you send your son and have him punished instead of me, and he take. That's not the way I would think. It's. It's weird. So. But usually we're okay with those parts.

[A]

Like, well, right.

[B]

That's good, because they're for me, because I like it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, but it's these other things. But. But I understand. What Vicki is saying is, okay, was this really okay? I'm thinking about. I can't remember the passage exactly. It's in John, where Jesus is praying to the Father, and he's praying these things or saying these things. I say these things before they happen. But it's for your sake, so that when it happens, you'll Know, but it's almost like his prayers, his words. Sometimes he's just saying it for one purpose. He didn't have to say that out loud. He could have prayed to his Father silently. And it wasn't for a show. It was for us. Like, I'm trying to communicate something here. I want you to. In, like, John 17, I go, Whoa. We're listening to the second member of the Trinity speaking to the Father. Like, wow, that's. That's pretty cool that we get to listen into a conversation now. Why did he do that? He wanted us to hear that prayer. And in the same way there with Moses, for some reason, I believe he knew all those things and he wasn't figuring it out right then, but he wanted us keyed in on a mystery that somehow. And I don't know how it works, because if he already knew everything and planned everything, then why pray? But then you have. In this passage, God's showing you, look, Moses interceded and something happened. I don't think the point was that, in my opinion, that God was like, oh, I'm going to do this. And like, oh, good thing Moses saved you guys.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think it was all this. He wanted us to learn something there about prayer that, you know, later on in James, he talks about Elijah and the prayers of a righteous man are powerful and effective. And I don't know that it's one of those things where, I mean, I understand what you're saying, Vicki. Like, it is confusing, and it's confusing to me, but a lot of times we have to look at Scripture and go, what's he trying to get across there? Is it really that God just snaps? No, because the Bible says that he is slow to anger and he lets things run their course. And I think that Moses prayer was part of that because he could have just had it happen.

[A]

Right. And in showing us as a visual that we can intercede in prayer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And God listens, which I don't think

[B]

we'll understand right here, you know, but all it's communicating is, whoa, okay. Well, Moses did that, and it worked. So, God, you just love on my aunt right now. You love on my sisters. Would you. Gosh, just show them your love? And like, he's hearing that right now, and somehow it has an effect. Even though he's a sovereign God and even though he knows everything.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not going to try to answer that after.

[B]

You know.

[A]

I know, I know there. But I think you said it well, in that there's some things that we won't understand within our human mind.

[B]

Yeah. And we don't know how to put things together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's the thing is, like, we're like, well, either he's loving and nothing bad should happen to me, or he's angry and there's no mercy. And, like, these extremes. So how can you put these two attributes together? How could God be a God of wrath and anger and love and mercy and grace? And you're saying that's all the same person? Yeah, he's 100% wrathful. He's 100% loving. How this all comes together, I mean, that's where I'm like, yeah, I'm trying to enjoy that. But that's what we were talking about at the beginning. How can he be so holy? Like, how can he be a being that great and then have such great affection for my soul? That seems contradictory because we don't have someone who's our greatest authority and yet also our best friend. You know, like, our. Our leaders in this world are not our most intimate friends. You don't feel like you want to just cuddle with them. It's just like, wow, how do you put that together? And those are some of the things where we go, okay, I'm a human being, and I'm going to see in part, and I'm going to study this, try to understand it, pray for revelation. But there will be times where we just. And it's an American thing. I also heard a guy speaking. He was saying, you know, we like to package everything with a bow and go, well, here it goes. Here's the complete story.

[A]

That's what Full House was all about. Yeah, it's a great sitcom. You package it up with a bow, and there's a happy ending. That's what we all want.

[B]

We can summarize when all the information is like, oh, I get it. And he says, a lot of cultures were not like that. They were just storytellers. And so you tell this story, and you just ponder the story. You don't try to get all these stories and then just package it together perfectly. Yeah, you just learn what you're supposed to learn from each story. Like, if I tell you a story right now about something that happened, you know, it's just, yeah, this happened for

[A]

me to think upon.

[B]

Yeah, you just dwell on it.

[A]

Well, we're gonna have a whole week to think about all of these things, because we have to go. But we're gonna be back next week.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay, so we'll be back. Come back. We have a free gift for you this season. It's an excerpt from my upcoming book, Wild Hope. Just go to Candice.com to find the link and it's in our show Notes. You'll also find a [e-mail] to ask questions for future episodes. If you want to join a private podcast discussion group, I invite you to become a part of the Together community. Download the app and learn how to become a monthly member@candy candice.com together. Until next time. Be grateful all day, every day. Candy Rock Entertainment all rights reserved.