Can Watching a Scary Movie Open a Spiritual Portal—or is That Just Fear Talking? - Jonathan Pokluda

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Candace Cameron Bure Podcast
Episode Title: "Can Watching a Scary Movie Open a Spiritual Portal—or is That Just Fear Talking? - Jonathan Pokluda"
Release Date: June 10, 2025
Host: Candace Cameron Bure (CandyRock)
Guest: Pastor Jonathan Pacluda
Guest Co-host: Lev Bure

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Introduction and Season Overview (00:00 - 03:22)

The episode kicks off with Candace Cameron Bure reflecting on her 10th season of the podcast, aptly titled "Your Story Has a Villain." She introduces her son, Lev Bure, and guest host, Pastor Jonathan Pacluda, highlighting the season's focus on deep spiritual conversations about faith, family, and purposeful living. Candace emphasizes the importance of navigating life's ups and downs together, setting a warm and inviting tone for the discussion.

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Exploring Spiritual Warfare (03:22 - 10:25)

Candace: Begins the conversation by addressing the concept of spiritual warfare, referencing Frank Peretti's "This Present Darkness." She shares her own experiences teaching the Bible and grappling with the reality of spiritual battles.

Lev: Expresses surprise at realizing the depth of spiritual warfare, contrasting his own lack of awareness with Pastor Jonathan's teachings. Highlights the importance of acknowledging these battles ("[05:33] Lev: Yeah. You said something there a second ago. You said, we can't fight an enemy that we don't know exists. Is that what you said?").

Pastor Jonathan: Agrees, emphasizing that recognizing the existence of spiritual warfare is crucial ("[04:58] Lev Bure: Yeah."). He recounts his introduction to the concept through reading "Screwtape Letters," which illuminated the pervasive and subtle tactics of the enemy.

Key Insight: Understanding and acknowledging spiritual warfare is the first step in effectively combating it. Without this awareness, believers are ill-equipped to face the unseen battles affecting their faith and daily lives.

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Impact of Media and "Portals" (10:25 - 15:00)

Candace: Shares her concerns about media acting as spiritual portals, specifically mentioning R-rated movies like "Passion of the Christ" as potential conduits for demonic influence ("[06:34] Candace: ...that's a portal that could let stuff inside our home").

Lev: Extends the discussion by highlighting how entertainment and even products (e.g., "Liquid Death" water) can be vehicles for satanic influence, stressing the deceptive nature of such mediums ("[07:59] Lev: ...the enemy wants to.... He tries to disguise under that stuff...").

Pastor Jonathan: Clarifies that avoiding certain media is not about legalism but about protecting one's spiritual well-being. He underscores the importance of setting boundaries to prevent demonic intrusion into personal and family life.

Key Insight: Media consumption can have profound spiritual implications. By being selective and setting clear boundaries, individuals can safeguard their homes and minds from negative spiritual influences.

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Conflict and Unity in Faith Communities (15:00 - 29:45)

Candace: Reflects on personal experiences with conflict, particularly during the COVID-19 pandemic, which heightened divisions both globally and within personal relationships. She emphasizes the importance of maintaining unity despite differing opinions ("[13:32] Candace: ...the conflict was so real of us in so many different forms...").

Pastor Jonathan: Discusses the biblical approach to conflict resolution, referencing Matthew 18 and Ephesians 4. He outlines practical steps for addressing grievances:

1. Private Resolution: Addressing issues directly with the person involved within 24 hours.
2. Involving Others: If the first attempt fails, bring in another person to mediate.
3. Church Involvement: Escalate the matter to church leadership if necessary.

He stresses that true discipleship involves fostering reconciliation and understanding, rather than perpetuating division.

Lev: Adds that much of his role involves conflict resolution, whether in church settings or personal relationships. He highlights the importance of seeing others as individuals rather than enemies, promoting love and understanding over prejudice and division.

Candace: Shares a personal anecdote about maintaining friendships despite political and religious differences, reinforcing the message that love and respect can transcend disagreements ("[20:02] Candace: ...I can still love you if you voted different than me...").

Key Insights:

• Biblical Conflict Resolution: Following scriptural guidelines can lead to healthier, more united faith communities.
• Personal Responsibility: Each individual plays a role in fostering reconciliation and avoiding unnecessary divisions.
• Love Over Disagreement: Maintaining love and respect in relationships, even amidst differing beliefs, strengthens community bonds.

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Doubts About Faith and Overcoming Them (29:45 - 43:36)

Listener Question: Holly asks Candace and Lev to share a season when their children had doubts about God and how they handled it.

Pastor Jonathan: Shares his personal struggle with doubt during his theological studies. He describes a pivotal moment where, despite intense doubt, he chose to believe in God's existence through prayer and community support, leading to a restoration of his faith ("[43:03] Candace: Tell me. [43:03] Pastor Jonathan: There was.").

Candace: Encourages listeners to openly discuss their doubts with God, assuring them that God is unafraid of their questions and doubts ("[40:34] Candace: ...If you doubt, talk to God about it...").

Lev: Emphasizes the importance of addressing doubts without panic, exploring the root causes, and seeking understanding through prayer and community. He reiterates that faith involves a journey from uncertainty to certainty, supported by supportive relationships and spiritual practices.

Key Insights:

• Open Dialogue: Encouraging honest conversations about doubts fosters spiritual growth and deeper faith.
• Community Support: Surrounding oneself with a supportive faith community aids in overcoming periods of doubt.
• Prayer and Reflection: Turning to prayer and reflective practices can help navigate and resolve spiritual uncertainties.

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Practical Steps for Maintaining Unity and Overcoming Division (43:36 - 37:48)

Pastor Jonathan: Provides actionable steps for maintaining unity within the church and personal relationships:

1. Address Offenses Promptly: Use the Matthew 18 process to resolve conflicts privately and respectfully.
2. Overlook Small Offenses: Practice forgiveness and understanding to prevent minor issues from escalating.
3. Minister of Reconciliation: Strive to mend broken relationships rather than deepen divisions, embodying the role of peacekeepers.

Lev: Highlights the prevalence of divisive behavior within the church, citing examples like denominational splits and gossip. He advocates for transformational discipleship that prioritizes unity and love over personal preferences and prejudices.

Candace: Reflects on her own tendencies towards judgment within her family and the importance of embodying the fruits of the Spirit—love, joy, peace, etc.—to foster harmonious relationships ("[36:21] Candace: ...I can be the first one to act in a way that I need the rest of my family to remind me...").

Key Insights:

• Biblical Guidelines: Adhering to scriptural principles ensures effective conflict resolution and unity.
• Personal Growth: Individuals must continuously work on embodying the fruits of the Spirit to nurture positive relationships.
• Avoiding Division: Actively combating gossip and divisive behavior strengthens the church community and personal bonds.

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Conclusion and Listener Engagement (37:48 - End)

The episode wraps up with Candace inviting listeners to join the podcast community through email lists and highlighting upcoming content. She mentions a free gift for listeners— the "No Fear Guide," aimed at facilitating spiritual conversations. The episode concludes with a teaser for future topics, including faith, and encourages continuous gratitude and community engagement.

Notable Quote:
Pastor Jonathan: "Christ are a string of statements that can be likened to destroying a bomb. We're going in with the right tools, the Holy Spirit, to disarm these explosive situations."

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Key Takeaways:

• Awareness of Spiritual Warfare: Recognizing the unseen battles influences how believers navigate daily life and media consumption.
• Media as Potential Portals: Being mindful of the media one consumes can protect against negative spiritual influences.
• Biblical Conflict Resolution: Applying scriptural principles fosters unity and resolves disputes effectively within communities.
• Open Conversations About Doubt: Addressing doubts openly with God and community strengthens faith and personal growth.
• Embodying the Fruits of the Spirit: Personal growth and compassion are essential for maintaining harmonious relationships and overcoming divisions.

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This episode of The Candace Cameron Bure Podcast delves deep into the intersection of spirituality, media influence, and interpersonal relationships, providing listeners with both theological insights and practical steps to enhance their faith journeys and community interactions.

Transcript

[Candace Cameron Bure]

There are things that I'm more accepting of that Lev has a much stronger boundary on than I do.

[Lev Bure]

Like, what's an example? Like, she's watching Passion of the Christ and you're like, hey, that's rated R. Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

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[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

I think you're on mute.

[Lev Bure]

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[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

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[Lev Bure]

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[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

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[Lev Bure]

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[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

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[Candace Cameron Bure]

Welcome back. My friends. Life is like a roller coaster, but it's better when we go through it together. Welcome to the Candace Cameron Bure podcast. This is my 10th season. It's kind of amazing to me. And this season is called you'd Story has a villain. My son Lev is in the studio and my guest host this season is Pastor Jonathan Pacluda. On YouTube, you can click below to describe to subscrib and then tap the bell so you'll never miss an episode. Come join us. Hey, let's go.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

We're back.

[Lev Bure]

Come on. We're doing it.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

This has been such a great season. I have loved talking about all of all things spiritual, but you know, on the dark side that we don't normally talk about, that can be kind of.

[Lev Bure]

Scary, warm and fuzzy.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

No, not at all.

[Lev Bure]

I love it. This is the tenth season. Come on.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I know.

[Lev Bure]

Super special.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I feel like we just started this yesterday and it's pretty amazing. We've had some cool conversations in these seats, you know, and I love that. Like, thank you, jp for being here so much.

[Lev Bure]

Thank you, love for jumping in with us.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah. It's exciting that I've had my kids on the podcast as well after they begged me and they were like, you're never letting us on the podcast. But no, it's such a pleasure.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Oh, thanks for having me. I love that. Specifically in this season, with what, you know, your book is all about, we're talking about conversations that sometimes are harder to have.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

I think they're kept in the dark.

[Lev Bure]

Right.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

And I think it's just amazing that we get to approach those, obviously with humility, but in a way that, man, like, we get to walk into this conversation so that the world might hear and really expose what's been hiding in the dark for a long time.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Lev Bure]

You talked about. I think it's Frank Peretti, right?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Lev Bure]

What's it called again?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

This Present Darkness.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah, this Present Darkness. Do you have an influence, Lev, on as you think about spiritual warfare? Like, is it something that you feel like you've thought a lot about or is it. Are you, like, similar. Are you similar to me where it was like, man, I don't know, I haven't. I haven't thought a lot about this. That's what it felt. What was odd to me is I'm literally teaching the Bible for a living. And there's this whole portion of it where we would talk about the enemy almost generically, like, oh, yeah, Satan and Satan and Satan. And I was like, man, I don't. I don't know that I know that much about what he can do and how works and how he operates. What about for you?

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Yeah, for sure. I think I fall in a similar category. I mean, not thinking about spiritual warfare as much growing up. And as of recent, it's something that was a little bit more unknown to me, but has been eye opening and really even like heart changing, soul shifting to bring up. Because for me personally, I feel like the acknowledgment of spiritual warfare for me is half the battle.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Like, you can't fight a battle that you don't know you're in.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

And so it's been amazing to really uncover it.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Did you. Did, yeah. I know. You read Screwtape Letters, didn't you?

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Because you did. I did. I wrote, I wrote, I read Screwtape Letters and that was probably my first introduction to the reality of spiritual warfare. And man, to. I would say in detail where, you know, we are being tempted and, you know, attacked in some ways that we might not even know small and big. And from there, I would say it's where my. Yeah, the journey really started for me.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah. You said something there a second ago. You said, we can't fight an enemy that we don't know exists. Is that what you said?

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Yeah.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah, man. That's good. That's the good Sun Tzu and the Art of War said something similar to that is. Yeah. You can't win. You can't. I think he's. It's that I don't, like. Now. Now your verb. Now your words are verbiage is stuck in my head. But it's like, you can't defeat an enemy that you don't. If you don't know how they work or what they do or something. So I don't know. He said something that was really profound, similar to what you said. That was profound.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

You know, there's a lot of profound words going on here.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

I think our family is fairly competitive.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Slightly.

[Lev Bure]

Slightly.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

But for me, change the game. Just knowing that we're in battle. Totally as believers.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Because even then, you know. You know, you said, I think, like, something along the lines of, if we're not worshiping God, if we're not giving God our time, then, you know, there's a void that's only going to be filled by evil.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

And I think just the acknowledgment of that makes you want to stand up and fight, knowing you're under attack. And so for me, that really changed the game.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I'm glad that you said that, because sometimes, honestly, though, in our house, as a mom, like, I feel like you guys make fun of me when I talk about. Well, they make fun of me all the time, but. But particularly when I'm serious about a spiritual thing happening. And then they're rolling their eyes at me, like, the portal, and I'm like. They laugh at me because of the portal. I'm like, you're opening up a portal. Like, if you're watching this or you're playing this video game or whatever, like, that's a portal that could let stuff inside our home. Like, I don't even want someone watching a scary mov in our house on the tv because to me, that's just a portal. Listen, I'm in the film industry. I understand how it all works. I know that movie specifically has a crew of 200 people, and they're lighting it, and they're adding the sound effects and it's makeup and camera people and actors. However, there's still something that can be incredibly demonic while they've made it. And I feel like it's a portal that gets opened up and let in. And that just reminded me, like, you posted something a while back about liquid death.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And you're like, so do you want to buy a product that is literally being cursed? Cursed as it's going out into distribution.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah. And you can sell your soul so big. Because I know we talked about deception already, but this, like, the whole, like, okay, Karen, you know, like, hey, that's just a. It's just. Right. Just. They're just kidding. It's just a Halloween ploy. Like, this is how he works. I'm telling you. He tries to disguise under that stuff. Like, that's what he wants you to feel like if you ever are like, oh, I'm not. I'm not going to be impacted by that. That's what Satan wants you to feel.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Lev Bure]

That's the whole essence of it. So, yeah, it's. There's. And there's. What's sad is there's so many examples of that. And I. I've heard. And again, I know I sound like Karen. No offense, Karen, but I've heard of, you know, act actors and actresses, like, learning witchcraft to better understand a role, actually casting spells through the tv, and they're like real spells. They actually read the things I've heard. Witches actually sound the alarm.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Me too.

[Lev Bure]

Say, hey, this is not okay, guys. You don't. You're messing around with stuff. You don't know what you're messing around.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

That's wild.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah. And then you're speaking in all these homes. If you're watching it on tv, like, those are real witchcraft words.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah, you were the. Like, this came up. I'm really confused.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I'm really confused about the nature of.

[Lev Bure]

This conversation because you're talking about the portal. But we were talking about. We were. I think my memory. Because everything got delayed because of the. The LA fires. But when we were talking about this, I was thinking that he had maybe a more conservative movie boundary or something.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Oh, he does.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

This is true. And I like to clarify when you say that we make fun of you. For clarification, we in no way are making light of the reality of spiritual warfare. We just love my mom and her mannerisms and the way she talks and how. How she talks about things. I think we give her a hard time about that, but we don't in any way make light of the reality of. Yeah, yeah.

[Lev Bure]

Why are you inviting Satan into your home?

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

I'm not.

[Lev Bure]

That's what I'm trying to.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Listen, this is. This is a big topic of conversation. It actually is between us.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Right. So now it's going to kind of flip because there are. Right. There's certain things that we. I don't want in the home. And yet there are things that I'm more accepting of that Lev has a much stronger boundary on than I do. Which can.

[Lev Bure]

Would you say legalism?

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

You know.

[Lev Bure]

I think today's about unity, by the way.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, it is. It's conflict. Conflict in unity.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

I say the only thing conceivably worse than your sin is trying to justify it. Mom, let's talk about it.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

The church. Constantly.

[Lev Bure]

The church will be at the height of its heresy, and it's called obedience. Legalism.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Exactly.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

He's like, mom, I'm questioning your salvation right now.

[Lev Bure]

What.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

So what is.

[Lev Bure]

What's the. Like, what's an example? Like, she's watching Passion of the Christ, and you're like, hey, that's rated R. Yes.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Not in the slightest. This is an exaggeration. No, I mean, listen, it goes with media. Any. Any kind of media, you know, I think we become what we fill ourselves with.

[Lev Bure]

Sure.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

And my boundary for what I would. What I think is, you know, beneficial.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Is I would say, more strict than what your boundary is.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, yeah. So, Leb, we know that if Lev is coming over and we're all gonna watch a movie, he. He will not watch rated R. Let's get, like, honest.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Like, the language. I don't like language. Like it.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I don't like language either, but go ahead.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Well, you gotta elaborate on that.

[Lev Bure]

A little bad language y' all are saying. But you don't like. Badly bad.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Bad language. Foul language. And it's not like. Yeah. I think that my heart wrestles with that. It was awesome. That I struggled with growing up, like, being on the ice, being hawk. Like, I let out a lot of bad words that I did not like to. And so it's a sensitive.

[Lev Bure]

Sure.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

To me, you know, being real about the media. There. There's a lot of foul language. There's, you know, nudity, sex, all of those things. And so, you know, even me struggling as a person, I would say with lust in general. Like, that's a constant temptation. Like, it's difficult for me to pretend that it's okay for me to.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

View those things.

[Lev Bure]

I mean, that whole thing flipped real fast, guys. So you're talking about portals. And then all of a sudden you like, hey, no R rated movies. And I'm. I'm left here just confused.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

I'm not against the already movies.

[Lev Bure]

I do, I do family pastoral counseling. And so I'm just here to offer my services to you guys. That's what I do, man.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Listen, if this is, if this is the worst conflict in the beret home, I think we're okay, you know?

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Yeah. And talking about conflict, what I love is, you know, I love that in our confliction, we want to push each other towards Christ.

[Lev Bure]

Yes.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Which is true.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

I really, I really enjoy. It's not a. You know, there's a lot of different kinds of division and I'm thankful that, you know, when we engage in these kind of conversations, it's like, how can we be more like Jesus?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, yeah, it is, it is very true. And. But conflict isn't always like that.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Right.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

You know, and I think that, I mean, I want to hear about conflict in your life, JP and particularly I go back five years in that, that good old 2020 when the pandemic happened and the world kind of shut down. Yeah. The conflict was so real of us in so many different forms because of what was happening in the world. And then, you know, being forced to get a. Get a shot or not or lose your job and, and liquor stores and marijuana dispensaries were being considered essential, but the church was not being considered essential.

[Lev Bure]

Preach.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And shutting down like that created so much conflict, fear and division among so many people. So I'm sure you have a pretty great perspective and some stories during that time.

[Lev Bure]

Let me go back and just say that last thing you said. So like liquor stores and dispensaries. THC dispensaries are essential, but church is not. I'll go back to what I said in the very first episode. Second Corinthians 4. 4. The lowercase G. God of this world. The Prince of the air. The God of the air. Like this. That's. That's his lowercase K. Kingdom. That, that's what he loves. He. He wants, hey, this is bad. Go get drunk, go get high, but stay away from church. Like this is what he's after and, and he wants to divide us. The book was largely inspired. You talked about screwtape. The. It starts with a screw tape letter. So the entire book starts with these two demons talking about 2020. And the, the strategy is he just says divide, divide, divide. So it, it starts with this kind of meeting that I saw, like had a vision for in the spiritual Realm. I'm not saying that this happened literally. It was just a. A creative vision, if you will, that I. I saw so much division in that time, politically, socioeconomically, racially, gender, like, according to gender. You know, anything that you age is, anything that you could be divided on, people were divided on. And so I just thought about how Satan had some sort of meaning in the spiritual realm. Say, all right, here's your strategy. Divide, divide, divide, divide, divide. Just divide them, divide families, divide. You know, turn a father against his children, turn a husband against his wife, co workers, neighbors. Just divide them, divide them. And they're like, how? And he's like, okay, we. We've got this disease. We're going to unleash this disease on the land, and we're going to have everybody just have a really strong opinion, one direction or the other. There's going to be no charity for any. Any diversity of thought. Just divide them. And I. I think we saw that play out, and I think there was something. I strongly believe there's something happening in the spiritual realm there. And so it's like, we must believe the wor. Ephesians, chapter six, when he says, our battle is not against flesh and blood, that. That someone who voted different than me is. Is not my enemy. Everyone, there's this word out there called sonder. Sonder means it's the. It's your journey. It's. It's the things that brought you to this moment. It's every. Every instance, everything you lived up until this time that have made you think the way you do, believe the way you do. It's the things that you were a victim to. It's the family that you were born into. And so. So much of us are a product of that and what we can do. When you truly believe that, all right, I'm not fighting people, but demons you can begin to think through. All right, how do I be what the scripture calls us to be, a minister of reconciliation? That is, to put the pieces back together. What does it look like for me to meet someone where they're at, to understand, to seek to understand why they believe what they do and then try to bring them to the things of God. Not necessarily my. My political ideologies or my, you know, opinions on any matter for that, as far as that goes, but to bring them to the things of God. And because it's like, I can win a debate about vaccines. I can. I can win a debate about who to vote for, but ultimately, I want that person to walk away more in love with Jesus. And so it's like, what does it look like for me to. To direct the conversations that way?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah, I just had a conversation with two friends. They are both friends, but it was in a work environment and they were on the job. And one of them doesn't think the same way that I do. I mean, doesn't have the same political beliefs. And we started talking about politics. And she went, oh, hold up, hold up. And I said, listen, this is a safe space. I already know that we don't agree on politics. And she kind of said, I know, but it's, you know, we're in a. This is a work thing. And I just don't. And I was like, I. It doesn't bother me. I'm. My best friend has different political beliefs and is a different religion than me. My best friend. I said, this is a safe place. I don't know about your friends. Maybe some of your other friends can't have a conversation and still like you if you don't agree with them. Yeah, I said, but I can still be friends with you and like you and we can have this. And my whole point is, I'm like, I'll do. I can. It's not about debating. I can have the conversation. I'd love to share my opinion with you. But my whole point is what you said is like. Because I want you to see a different perspective and I want you to see Jesus in it. But even if you don't agree with it in this moment, it's just to get you thinking. And I. I still love you. And I still hope you love me.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah. The enemy wants us to. That's beautifully said. He wants us to put people in camps and build fences. Yeah, and. And it's just like the. The gospel goes beyond fences. The gospel penetrates all kinds of camps and different views, and it goes out into the nations and it changes hearts. Hearts and changes lives and gives people hope in the most hopeless situations. But the enemy wants us to see someone as. Because what we can do is if I. If I don't, you know, if I don't like you, if I don't like something so much, if I don't like coffee so much that I just think it's bad and I think it's poisonous, and I think people that drink it are bad, and that's propaganda whatnot. And then I find out you. You drink coffee, then I can begin to put you in this camp and I can begin to hate you. This is a tactic and it's been. Been done. I mean, it's been done with genocides. Honestly, people have killed over a million people because of the propaganda that just stirred up in their heart that caused them to, to hate someone. And, and that's when I, I'll go back to what I said is we are really programmable beings. God made us programmable beings so that we can set our mind on the things above. But when we, when we live so deeply entrenched in the natural world, when we're still so focused here, then it, it becomes this strategy of only the strong. And if you're, if you don't believe what I believe, then you know, you're. You missed the, the train. I'm going to keep going and I'll run you over if I need to. And I hate you and I'm going to cause all them to hate you. And so what does it look like to you know that I love what you said. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hey, I can still love you if you voted different than me, right? I can still love you if you don't love my God. In fact, he instructs me to. Isn't that crazy? And by love you I'm talking about an emotion. I'm talking about like I can, I can identify your needs and meet them at a cost to me. For the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as ransom for many at, at the center of my faith. You have my God giving up his entire life for the very people who killed him. Okay, like that. That's what I believe at my core. And so that's what I'm looking to do in microcosms of my life and in tiny ex. Looking to be charitable toward people who believe something very different than me. And that's how I overcome the enemy. And that's how we become ministers of reconciliation.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Always feel most confident day to day when I know exactly what's in my makeup and skincare products. And honestly, the less ingredients necessary, the better. That's why I wanted to try Adele Natural Cosmetics. Adele's faith based values also play a role in the way they do business. Adele Natural Cosmetics believes that true beauty comes from the heart and strives to reflect that in everything they do. Read first Peter 3, verses 3 and 4 if you want to know more. I've personally been using the highlighter glow stick and the bronzer stick. Both products are super creamy, but not in a way that's overpowering and they blend to perfection. I've been really impressed with them and not to mention their beautiful selection of lipsticks. I absolutely love their colors. They protect and nourish your lips. They also offer personalized customer service with real people. Yay. And they even provide complementary foundation color matching. All you have to do is reach out to customer service and ask. Follow Adele on Instagram. That's Del Natural Cosmetics for lots of tutorials, behind the scenes and encouraging content. And use my one time code for 25% off your first order. That's the code. Candice for 25% off your first order. And Canyon University, a private Christian university in beautiful Phoenix, Arizona, believes that we're endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. GCU equips you to serve others in ways that promote human flourishing and create a ripple effect of transformation for generations to come. Proverbs 11:25 says, Whoever brings blessing will be enriched and one who waters will himself be watered. By honoring your career, calling you impact your family, your friends and your community. Whether your pursuit involves a bachelor's, master's or doctoral degree, GCU's online on campus and hybrid learning environments are designed to help you achieve your unique academic, personal and professional goals. Find your purpose at Grand Canyon University. Private, Christian affordable. Visit gcu.edu learning through play starts with Lego Duplo. With Lego duplicates, toddlers can develop real life skills while having fun with colorful bricks made just for them. Large, easy to grip and safe to explore. When children express themselves with Lego Duplo, they build patience, problem solving and empathy. See your child learn perseverance and self expression with everything they imagine and create. Visit lego.com preschool to learn more. Can you give us some examples in church history where it's been really divided? I feel like people are going, this is the most divided the world has ever been. Ever been.

[Lev Bure]

There's this little thing called the Civil War.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Exactly. Can you give us a few church examples?

[Lev Bure]

Oh, history. I mean, like the Reformation. I mean you have Martin Luther nailing 95 thesis to the door at Wittenberg. I mean that's a, that's a pretty big division. It started the, the pro. Like, so I'm a Protestant. I was Catholic, by the way, I was raised Catholic and now I'm Protestant, which the, the root of that word is protest. And so he protested something. So that would be one. I mean there's, there's lots like Jan Hus was literally burned at the stake with, I think, I'm pretty sure Wycliffe too, where, you know, because they wanted to, you know, advance copies of the scriptures. So there's. There's a lot. I mean, the Crusades guys, right? I mean, people are going around killing people in the name of Jesus. It's. There's. There's some pretty big and even back.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Bruises on the church in biblical times, like in Philippi.

[Lev Bure]

Sure. Yeah. And. Oh, you're talking about. I was. I wasn't following, but I think you're talking about, like, Yodia and Tiki.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Lev Bure]

Where he's like, hey, as he writes this letter, he's. He's like, hey, y' all, stop arguing.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Lev Bure]

And that's when the church had authority. Like, a pastor could just say, hey, YouTube, knock it off.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Lev Bure]

And he said, okay, we better. Yeah, we better quit. You know, But I mean, so much. I would say, like, probably 80%, that's a little bit arbitrary statistic of what I do is conflict resolution, which. Really. Yeah. I mean. And I mean, even anything from, like, mediating business deals, you know what I've gone wrong. To mediating impending divorce. As you shared your story in a past episode about your parents, like, doing a lot of that. I mean, just so much of our conflict in a small group. So about 80% of what I do is conflict resolution. And I've heard it well said that 100% of what I do is discipleship. Because when you're resolving conflict, that's discipleship. You're teaching people how to navigate difficult situations to bring about unity. When Jesus prayed for us, I mean, when Jesus prayed for the church, he prayed that we would get along. That's the part in John 17. Like, Jesus could have prayed anything for us. I mean, he could have prayed health, wealth, and prosperity. He could have prayed, you know, that we'd be great parents. He could have prayed for our family. He prayed and. And, Lord, I just pray that they would get along, that they are one.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Lev Bure]

As you and I are one. Ephesians 4 says. Ephesians 4. Three, be diligent at preserving the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace. That we're to work hard at it. That it's. That it's hard work. That we're to do. It is difficult.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And that. And he's talking about the unity between believers and non believers, believers to believers, and believers to non believers.

[Lev Bure]

That's right. Yeah. That. That primarily, a lot of what he's talking about as believers is. Is in the church because there's so much dysfunction and disagreement in the church. Like, for me, like, sometimes the biggest. My biggest critics are Christians.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Right.

[Lev Bure]

The atheists leave Me alone, but the Christians, you know. Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

And that's always, it's always a hard one. It's always a hard one. Even, Even with something like gather 25. That was there. It was like all denominations. It was just the whole body of Christ invited all over the world, but that meant different denominations. And I heard lots of comments on Instagram that was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. But this denomination is invited.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I'm just like, hey, what do you believe about Jesus? Because if, if we believe the same about his death and resurrection, like, I will lift up Jesus with anybody.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Y. Yeah.

[Lev Bure]

And. And if you. We don't believe the same about Jesus, then I'm gonna, I want to minister to you and minister. That word minister really means like render aid, care. I'm gonna, I'm gonna offer you care. And so just trying to live the fully leveraged life. But I think we can get really divisive around this. And so gossip is a big one. I mean, that's a, that is a tool of the enemy that Christians under the banner of prayer requests. You know, we got some. Hey, will you and will you just pray for my boss? Because he's. Yeah, just pray for so. And so we pray for my neighbors because their dog barks in the middle. You know, whatever it is. We're just so, we, we try to operate under this like, self righteous banner of. And we're actually divisive.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

So how, how do we resolve that?

[Lev Bure]

Yeah, it's a great.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

How do we grow in those relationships that feel really divisive.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah. A couple ground rules, you know, I think that are helpful. Matthew 18:15 says, when your brother or sister sins against you, go and tell them just between the two of you. And so it's like, if you, if you hurt me, I wouldn't go to Lev and say, man, you're not going to believe what your mom did. If I did, what Lev should do is like, hey, man, my mom is a spiritual Christian. You should go tell her. And so at Harris Creek, where I get to pastor and serve, we have something called the 24 hour principle. So if somebody says something to me about someone else who's not present, I simply respond, hey, they need to hear that from you. You have 24 hours to tell them. And so in 24 hours, I'll follow up with them just to make sure that they heard from you. And I'm happy to go with you, I'm happy to bring you with me, but because you told me something about someone who's not here you need to go and talk to them about it. And so just to make the place unsafe for gossip. So it is a safe place for everything but gossip. Yeah, not safe for gossip. And Matthew 5 says, if you go to leave your gift at the altar and realize that someone has something against you, to run and be reconciled to that person before you leave your gift. So if I go to take communion or I'm at church and I'm worshiping God is like, hey, I don't want you worshiping me, because your, your horizontal relationships are broken, so your vertical relationship is going to be broken. So go mend your horizontal relationship before you come to, to work on this vertical relationship. So that's, there's just like a sense of urgency there. And then Matthew 18 goes on to say that if they listen to, you've won them over, but if you don't, then, then take someone with you. So I might go to Lev and say, hey, I talked to your mom, but she wasn't really receptive. Can you go with me now? And then we come back and say, candace, you really hurt me when you said, or when you did, or whatever. And, and if you listen to the two of us, then we won you over. And it says if you, if they don't, then you would bring in the church, you would bring in a pastor. And so that's a process that's helpful. The scripture says that you're to overlook a small offense. And so if I need to think about, man, I may have been too sensitive. And so if I need to, as I, as I drive down the road, I think about can, you know, she may have just made a mistake. She may have not meant that. That may have been a joke, you know, sarcastic comment that I, I, I took too personal. Can I overlook that? And if I can overlook it, I should. The way that I know if I can overlook it or not is I overlook it. Right. If it comes back up, if I'm driving down the road or later on I think about it, it's like, all right, clearly something bothered me, and I need to go to that person I like. And it's like, when you eat some, like, I ate bad sushi once recently.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Nothing worse than bad sushi.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah, man. And I, you know, it's sad that there. And I'm like, oh, I'm gonna see that again. Yeah, that's gonna come back. And so it's kind of the same thing with a thought. It's like, all right, that thought's gonna come back to me. That's not going away. I need to go and talk to her. Yeah, and so you know that, so you, you, you go and you tell the person you can walk that Matthew 18 process over. Look, a small offense. I just liken it to. If you guys ever seen like in a movie, like if people are in the grocery store or something and somebody yells bomb. There's a bomb. Like, you know, everybody's running from the bomb. You know, you've seen that like kind of play out.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lev Bure]

It's like, ah, scatter.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

It's a bomb.

[Lev Bure]

There's a bomb. And then like if it's a movie, like Hurt Locker or something, like the camera pans and then all of a sudden there's this guy and he's like fully like geared up, SWAT all black, you know, helmet on, and he just. Slow motion. And as everybody runs from the building, like he's moving toward the building.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Yeah.

[Lev Bure]

Why, like, why is he able to move toward the building when everybody else is running away?

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

It's protected. He's guarded.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah, he's guarded. Any other words you think?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Those are literally the two words I thought of as.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

He's armored, if you will.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah, he's armored. And he's trained to deal with the explosion, the explosive device. Like he has training to disarm it. Christians fill with the Holy Spirit. We have the training.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Oh, I like it.

[Lev Bure]

If we understand the word and we know the scriptures, we have the training to disarm the situation. And so we're going in with different, with different armor, we're going in with, with different tools, we're going in with different training so that we, but the problem is there's a lot of people, so called Christians or, or Christians that, that aren't trained and they don't do what they're supposed to do. And they, they, instead of being a minister of reconciliation, they're, they're a minister of further division, which is satanic. It's what, it's demonic. It's what the enemy is, is trying to create.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yep.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

That's a mic drop.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

It's so true. Thanks for sharing that.

[Lev Bure]

It's attached. I would drop it.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

No, those are really, really good practical steps. I'm sitting here thinking in my own mind how to do. I mean, I, I can get very quick to judge within my own family as the matriarch of like, hey, you know, God says this, let's practice those fruit, the fruit of the spirit, let's have this and that. And yet when I get upset or angry or there's a, you Know, a rise stirred up in me. I can be the first one to act in a way that I need the rest of my family to remind me of the fruit of the Holy Spirit and that I, I am, I am trained.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah. Because people, they, you know, church splits. That's like my world, you know?

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Lev Bure]

And it's over. Music, it's over. Building campaigns, it's over. It's preferential things.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Right.

[Lev Bure]

And often will say, like, don't let your preferences rob you of paradise. I mean, there. There are brothers you think about gather 25. I mean, there's brothers and sisters throughout the world that are walking miles to attend an open air church that lasts hours and hours and hours or days, you know, and. And for us, it's like, if you got to park across the street, it's like, well, I'm not going. I'm going back home to stream. And just like, we can be so, so upended in our preferences. And it's just like, what does it look like for us to have conversations that we need to have to keep short accounts with one another, you know, to overlook a small offense. These are things that don't come natural. They're supernatural, that you have to yield to the spirit. Because the spirit, you know, the fruit of the spirit. Disunity. No, it's not a fruit of the spirit.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Right.

[Lev Bure]

Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self control. These are fruit of the spirit. So if we're, if we're, if we look in the rearview mirror and we see a lot of broken relationships and we're the common denominator, then. Then we have to understand. All right. There may be a spirit of disunity attached to me that I need to deal with.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

That's great. Thank you. We're going to go to a listener question.

[Lev Bure]

Let's do it.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

It's that time. This one is from Holly.

[Lev Bure]

Holly Shout Out. It's fairly like. That's kind of. It's a cool name, you know?

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Yeah, I'm a fan.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I feel like I've probably been Holly in many Christmas movies because Sophie's like a Christmas name.

[Lev Bure]

See, that's Shameless Plug.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah.

[Lev Bure]

Okay.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Well, this one is a kind of a good one for our. Because Lev's here. She says, please share a season when your children had doubts about God and how you handled that. Oh, well, we can. I mean, you have kids too, so you can share. And I'm trying to think. I love is probably not the right one for this question because I don't know that Lev is have you happy?

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

I was about to say like I'm the perfect person. It just happened. I mean I don't think it's.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

When you're a kid, I'm thinking as.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

A mom, but even I'm like, you know, you are and will always be my mom, you know, and there's that special relationship where I look up to for no wisdom. And you know, obviously I'm married now, but even like the aspect of nurture and whatnot. But I would say three years ago was I went through probably like an eight month period of like flat out doubt and it was like, like waking up and knowing the head knowledge and being like, why is it so difficult?

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

To believe? Like so bizarre and you know, thoughts of like, what if this isn't real? You know, I don't remember me. I mean I was telling you all about this and I would, there were then all of these tiny little theological questions that fed into, you know, the reality of doubt.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

But, but this is also while you were studying, like while you were, while.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

I was in school studying biblical and theological studies when I experienced the most.

[Lev Bure]

Experience happens a lot.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Yeah.

[Lev Bure]

I mean I think a lot of people, people go to seminary and lose their faith.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

Yeah. And I think, I mean I remember the things even my dad, papa, what he told me, but I was encouraged by the very like core basic truths of the gospel and even be being comforted by you both that it's okay to not know everything. Yeah, yeah, no doubt. You know, we should put in work to, to know why we believe what we believe.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

But you know. Yeah, just, just being encouraged by the simple truth of Christ and you know, community, community I think is so incredibly important. So having people to walk alongside me in that with my questions, you know, my parents at the time being two of those people, it was huge.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Yeah. I've always said and encouraged that if you doubt, talk to God about it.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

God's not going to be scared of your doubt. It doesn't make him nervous.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

He's not gonna leave you or not love you and it's nothing that he hasn't dealt with before and doesn't see. So if you doubt, talk to him about it, pray about, confess it. I'm doubting.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

I don't understand. I want, I don't want to doubt. I want to have faith in you. But maybe you are like Thomas, you know, and you, you need the proof. You got to put, put the finger in the, the holes of his hand. Yeah. And the holes of his hand. So I Always I'm like, don't be scared to ask God the big, big questions. And the ones that are, even if they're trying to disprove him.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Or what he did. It's, it's okay.

[Lev Bure]

Don't panic. The opposite. We're going to talk about faith in a, in a episode that's coming up, a future episode. And I would just say, like the opposite of faith. Faith is not doubt, it's certainty. Like, like, for faith to exist, there has to be some level of uncertainty. We, we have faith here because we're not fully in the presence of God. One day we won't really, we won't need faith. We will just exist in the presence and reality of God. And so when somebody doubts, you can try to identify, hey, what are the questions? What the, what is the foundation of that doubt? And you can go slow in those terms and, and, and sit in it with them, but when it's your children, I think the, one of the worst things we can do as parents is panic. Oh, no, hold, wait, wait, wait. What? And just be like, oh, sweetie, that's okay. Like that, that you're challenged. Let's, let's sit with you. Let's talk through your questions. Let's, let's understand where this is coming from. Is this the influence of a friend? Is it the influence of some media? And is it the influence of something you watched or listened to or heard or read? What's the source of this? And let's begin to challenge it, because what we believe is true. So no amount of scrutiny or criticism is going to prove it untrue. And so we're not afraid of questions. Let's just talk about it and pray. And so often those seasons, like it did for you, will pass. I mean, most often they pass. And so that's what I would say, love.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Was there a defining moment when your doubt stopped?

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

There was.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Tell me.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

And so quick, quick little background. The deception from the enemy in that season was, you know, there's no point in going to God if he doesn't exist.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

You know, in that. And I remember, like, I want to say again, at the end of this, like, six month period, it was when, like, through encouragement, through family, through community, I remember waking up one day and just praying this prayer of like, lord, like, even in my doubt, like today, I will choose to believe you exist. And from there, boom, everything changed.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Wow. Yeah, I love that. Thanks for sharing.

[Lev Bure]

Yeah, man, it's awesome.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Okay, we're coming back. Yep, we're coming back next week, so you don't want to miss it. And hey, are you on our email list yet? Every week we send out show notes, notes, ideas, and sometimes we answer listener questions there too. Our free gift this season is called the no Fear Guide, Talking about spiritual stuff. It can be scary for some people, but it doesn't have to be. And you'll also find a link to Pastor JP's book, you, Story has a Villain. The links [e-mail] and in our show Notes. Until next time, be grateful all day, every day. Candy Rock Entertainment. All rights reserved.

[Lev Bure]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying Big Wireless Way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

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[Lev Bure]

We want to make this summer the.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

Summer of Shipping Summer Shipalooza so you can start crossing items off your must ship list.

[Pastor Jonathan Pacluda]

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[Lev Bure]

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[Candace Cameron Bure]

You told your mom you would send her ages ago.

[Lev Bure]

And with our pack and ship guarantee.

[Candace Cameron Bure]

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[Lev Bure]

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[Candace Cameron Bure]

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[Lev Bure]

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[Candace Cameron Bure]

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