The Centaur Podcast

Episode Title: Wild Herd Dynamics with Mary Ann Simonds and Barbara Wheeler, Part 2
Date: June 6, 2025
Host: Camron Adibi
Guests: Mary Ann Simonds (Equine Behavioral Ecologist), Barbara Wheeler (Wild Horse Photographer)

Episode Overview

This rich and illuminating conversation explores the intricate dynamics of wild horse herds, focusing on communication, emotional intelligence, social bonds, and real-life stories from the field. Host Camron Adibi is joined by guest experts Mary Ann Simonds, an equine behavioral ecologist, and Barbara Wheeler, a noted wild horse photographer. Together, they dispel common myths about wild herds, explain subtle and complex behaviors, and discuss how these lessons can enhance both our understanding of horses and the ways we interact with them—whether in the wild or in domestic settings.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family Structures and Social Bonds

• Barbara recounts a poignant story about a young palomino foal who lost his elderly mother and was raised thereafter by a bachelor band. The foal later reunites with his younger brother in a tender greeting, demonstrating deep sibling bonds even after band separation.

  • “But I could, I don't think I could probably say other than things like — no, just because his ears are pinned does not mean he's mad.” — Barbara Wheeler [07:49]

• Mary Ann contextualizes the behavior, describing the greeting as deeply ritualized and rooted in the horses’ social structure.

  • “The greeting of a youngster or foal is doing a submissive greeting to his brother... It’s permission to enter space because so much of nation is my space, your space.” — Mary Ann Simonds [03:25]

2. Subtle Communication and Emotional Intelligence

• Marianne emphasizes the importance of subtle signals in equine communication, especially gestures like mare glances, ear positions, and eye contact.

  • “Mares had about 11 different ear positions that I was able to figure out fairly clearly identify because they were repeated by other mares in different groups.” — Mary Ann Simonds [06:35]

• Barbara reflects on how photographers learn to ‘read’ herd behaviors in order to anticipate and capture meaningful moments, stressing the need to interpret whole-body language, not just obvious cues.

• The complexity of emotions is highlighted, with both experts acknowledging that wild (and domestic) horses are highly emotionally intelligent.

  • “Everything in their world from a functional standpoint is to manage the emotion of the herd because there’s awareness toward each other’s emotions.” — Mary Ann Simonds [09:42]

3. Interspecies Relationships and Adaptation

• Interspecies communication: The guests recount wild and domestic horses befriending or tolerating sheep, bighorn sheep, pronghorns, and elk—a testament to the adaptability and social openness of horses.

  • “He found his people. They were horses.” — Mary Ann Simonds, referring to a bighorn sheep integrated into a bachelor band [11:32]

• Field anecdotes: Marianne and Barbara describe how horses perceive humans in their environment and how non-threatening postures (sitting, lying down) can break barriers and foster curiosity, even making humans part of the sleeping circle in a herd.

  • “When you’re in the field, you reach down into a different level of existence. You become one with nature.” — Marianne Simonds [13:32]

4. Rituals and Greetings Among Stallions

• The group examines a video of two senior stallions, including the famed Picasso, reuniting after about a year apart. Their greeting ceremony—simultaneous posturing, urination, defecation, and mutual displays—lasts for nearly six minutes, far longer than typical encounters.

  • “You can see there’s no aggressiveness, but it is tit for tat. I get good poop, I get good pee. I can arch my neck. It’s like, yep.” — Mary Ann Simonds [21:19]
  • “What was so unique about it was that it went on so long. And I think that really told me what a unique bond these two had…” — Barbara Wheeler [31:30]

• The importance of scent: Marking with manure (“stud piles”) is a form of communication, especially for stallions who, in domestic contexts, may become frustrated if their “markers” are routinely cleaned away.

  • “Just leave his manure. Leave him a little manure out there, will you? Once they did that, he was fine because he couldn’t make any more to mark.” — Mary Ann Simonds [23:55]

5. Parallels in Domestic and Wild Horses

• Mary Ann draws parallels between wild and domestic horse behavior, especially relating to the need for social partners and a sense of belonging. She underscores how misunderstanding these needs can lead to problem behaviors.

  • “If you are a good social partner, they’ll bond to you, and they won’t even go off to another group of horses... That’s not my herd. You’re my herd.” — Mary Ann Simonds [40:38]

• Adoption stories: Barbara shares that successful mustang adoptions often result in unusually strong human-horse bonds, which many describe as fundamentally different from those with domesticated horses.

6. The Value of Friendship and Allowing Natural Interactions

• Discussion of domestic management: They critique the practice of isolating horses or preventing natural social interaction due to fear of injury or overly “valuable” animals, and stress that forced or mismatched pairings can be detrimental.

  • “They all need to get along. No, they don’t… There were different cultures, and it was much better to keep the same cultures together because they all could read each other’s behaviors.” — Mary Ann Simonds [39:24]

• On forced friendships: Not all horses will bond; keeping familiar bands together supports harmonious integration.

  • “You also can’t force friendships.” — Mary Ann Simonds [39:24]

7. The Multiplicity of Greetings and Group Dynamics

• Check-ins and group greetings: Both discuss that horses often greet in groups rather than pairs, with check-ins serving to reaffirm social roles, group health, and current environmental safety. These can involve two, three, or even seven horses together.
  • “It’s very hard for us to do that...because we only use our ears, where they’re exchanging all kinds of information—health, where the water is, what’s happened.” — Mary Ann Simonds [45:19]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There is a whole interspecies communication going on in the wild... and so, of course, why wouldn’t they be having conversations with the other animals there?” — Camron Adibi [18:43]

• “If a horse, say you’re out on trail together, wants to pass a mare, she’ll pin her ears back… They’re communicating: I see you, I understand you ask permission to walk through my space… There’s nothing aggressive about using your ears.” — Mary Ann Simonds [06:15]

• “When you’re in the field, you reach down into a different level of existence. You become one with nature.” — Mary Ann Simonds [13:32]

• On marking piles:
  “It’s like going on Facebook for them.” — Mary Ann Simonds [22:49]

• “That’s not my herd. You’re my herd.” — Mary Ann Simonds (describing adopted mustang loyalty) [40:38]

• “Meeting… it was a very unique experience for both Marty and I. I don’t think we ever saw anything quite like this particular greeting.” — Barbara Wheeler (on the Picasso video) [32:40]

Important Timestamps

• [03:25] Submissive greeting rituals between young horses
• [05:57] Mare “eye glance” and subtle communication; the 11 ear positions
• [09:42] Emotional intelligence and herd harmony
• [13:32] Interspecies integration and fieldwork stories
• [21:19] Stallion greeting video analysis: posturing and mutual mimicry
• [23:55] Domestic parallel: stallion “stud piles” and behavioral problems
• [29:23] Elaborate greeting behaviors and playful mimicry in herds
• [31:30] The significance of a prolonged stallion greeting
• [36:30] Importance of friendly greeting rituals in domestic stables
• [39:24] Forced friendship and herd integration in captivity
• [45:19] Group greetings and what horses learn from each other
• [48:10] Training differences based on herd role (stallions, geldings, mares)
• [49:12] The impact of social deprivation on stallion behavior

Episode Takeaways

• Wild and domestic horses share deep need for social connection, ritualized greetings, and communication through subtle cues such as position, posture, scent, and expression.
• Proper understanding and observation of these behaviors—whether in the wild or in managed environments—can help forge deeper, more trusting relationships with horses and improve their wellbeing.
• Interspecies curiosity and adaptability allow not just horses, but also other animals and even humans, to become part of their social world if approached thoughtfully.
• Letting horses “be horses”—giving opportunities to greet, bond, and choose friends—results in healthier, happier, and more emotionally resilient animals.

For more stories and resources:

• Mary Ann Simonds: maryannsimonds.com
• Barbara Wheeler (photography): barbarawheelerphotography.com
• Camron Adibi (host): camronadibi.com