Dr. Orna Guralnik

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table Episode: Dr. Orna Guralnik
Release Date: August 4, 2023

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Introduction

The episode kicks off with Dan Natterman welcoming Noam Dwarman, the owner of the renowned Comedy Cellar, and his wife, Juanita Dwarman. They introduce Dr. Orna Guralnik, a clinical psychologist from New York University, who joins later in the discussion. The initial banter sets a candid and relaxed tone for the episode, highlighting the personal dynamics between the hosts and guests.

---

Business Discussion: Buying Out the Comedy Cellar

[00:00 - 03:10]

Dan initiates a light-hearted conversation about buying out the Comedy Cellar. Noam Dwarman expresses his exhaustion from managing the business, leading Dan to humorously propose a hypothetical offer to purchase the establishment.

• Dan Natterman (01:05): "Hypothetically, I offered you 15 million, Juanita."
• Noam Dwarman (01:21): "You want to take it for 15 million? Well, but..."

The discussion evolves into a playful negotiation about the real estate associated with the Comedy Cellar, including the value of a nearby McDonald's. Although the conversation starts with humor, it subtly underscores the complexities of running a longstanding comedy venue.

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Marriage and Couples Therapy

[03:08 - 32:46]

The conversation shifts to the personal lives of Noam and Juanita, delving into their 29-year marriage. They candidly discuss their conflicts, communication styles, and the role of therapy in maintaining their relationship.

• Noam Dwarman (25:46): "When I compare their relationships to ours, I know I think I'm very lucky."
• Juanita Dwarman (26:04): "We've had a happy 30 years, right. For the most part."

Dr. Orna Guralnik facilitates the discussion, providing insights into their marriage dynamics. She explores themes like emotional maturity, communication, and the impact of their backgrounds on their relationship.

• Dr. Orna Guralnik (27:10): "I've had time with couples where I felt like they're too, in a way, addicted to the fight, and they didn't really. They couldn't really let go of it."

Their honest portrayal of marital challenges and triumphs offers listeners a deep dive into the intricacies of sustaining a long-term relationship.

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Monogamy vs. Polyamory: Ethical Non-Monogamy

[32:46 - 46:21]

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing ethical non-monogamy and polyamory. Noam Dwarman expresses skepticism about these relationship structures, questioning their feasibility and impact on emotional well-being.

• Noam Dwarman (37:26): "The notion that you can really actually have people not feel jealous when they're attached to someone, not feel jealous of them having sex with another person. I find this very hard to believe."

Dr. Orna Guralnik provides a nuanced perspective, distinguishing ethical non-monogamy from manipulative behaviors like sociopathy. She emphasizes the importance of community, fairness, and emotional intelligence in polyamorous relationships.

• Dr. Orna Guralnik (35:17): "I have many thoughts about it. It's happening a lot among younger people. They struggle with possessiveness, jealousy, but they're gaining more love and community relatedness."

The discussion touches on cultural influences, psychological dynamics, and societal perceptions of non-traditional relationship models.

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Adoption and Racial Considerations

[46:21 - 54:00]

The topic of adoption surfaces, focusing on cross-racial adoption and its psychological implications. Dan Natterman raises questions about the importance of matching adoptive parents' ethnic backgrounds with that of the child.

• Dan Natterman (70:38): "Should consideration be given to the ethnic background of the parents when deciding which couple to give this child to?"

Dr. Orna Guralnik discusses contemporary adoption practices, highlighting the emphasis on cultural matching to support the child's identity and reduce potential conflicts related to race.

• Dr. Orna Guralnik (71:10): "The wisdom nowadays is try to match people to their cultural backgrounds... because they might have less questions about identity."

Noam counters by arguing that a loving and responsible home transcends racial considerations, suggesting that concerns about identity might be overemphasized.

• Noam Dwarman (71:04): "If you have a loving home with responsible, loving parents, these things are not going to upend the mental health of a child."

The exchange underscores the complexities of adoption in a multicultural society, balancing cultural identity with familial love and responsibility.

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Personal Stories and Experiences

[54:00 - 80:08]

The conversation becomes more personal as Noam shares childhood experiences related to therapy and understanding his emotions. He recounts a transformative moment involving his cat, Licorice, and a therapy session that triggered unexpected emotional responses.

• Noam Dwarman (64:35): "There's a process going on there, a number of processes going on there. All the time."

Dr. Orna Guralnik elaborates on the unconscious processes and the significance of building trust in therapy to address deep-seated traumas.

• Dr. Orna Guralnik (68:27): "In analysis, the experience is intense and you connect words and thought to those feelings, and you start really morphing. It's like you're trying to change the code."

Noam reflects on how these unconscious processes influence behaviors and emotions, emphasizing the intricate link between past traumas and present-day relationships.

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Closure: Insight into Therapy and Personal Growth

[80:08 - 85:19]

As the episode nears its end, the discussion circles back to the efficacy and nature of psychotherapy. Noam expresses his skepticism about the scientific aspects of therapy, suggesting that an insightful and sensitive therapist may be more impactful than formal training alone.

• Noam Dwarman (81:06): "I think whatever you have is much more just about your insight and your sensitivity to people than it probably is about what you've learned at NYU."

Dr. Orna Guralnik counters by explaining the multifaceted nature of therapy, combining both scientific methodologies and the therapist's innate understanding of human behavior.

• Dr. Orna Guralnik (81:07): "It's a combination... psychoanalysts don't have an answer for anything. They listen and..."

The episode concludes with lighter banter about comedy preferences and a warm goodbye, reinforcing the blend of personal and professional insights shared throughout the conversation.

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Notable Quotes

• Dan Natterman (01:05): "Hypothetically, I offered you 15 million, Juanita."
• Noam Dwarman (37:26): "The notion that you can really actually have people not feel jealous when they're attached to someone, not feel jealous of them having sex with another person. I find this very hard to believe."
• Dr. Orna Guralnik (35:17): "I have many thoughts about it. It's happening a lot among younger people. They struggle with possessiveness, jealousy, but they're gaining more love and community relatedness."
• Dan Natterman (70:38): "Should consideration be given to the ethnic background of the parents when deciding which couple to give this child to?"
• Noam Dwarman (81:06): "I think whatever you have is much more just about your insight and your sensitivity to people than it probably is about what you've learned at NYU."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table offers a rich blend of personal anecdotes, relationship dynamics, and philosophical debates on monogamy and societal norms. Through candid discussions and expert insights, Noam and Juanita Dwarman alongside Dr. Orna Guralnik, explore the complexities of marriage, the evolving landscape of relationships, and the profound impact of therapy on personal growth. The inclusion of notable quotes and structured dialogue ensures that listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the topics, even if they haven't tuned into the episode themselves.

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For comments and feedback, you can email [e-mail]. Don’t miss out on future episodes by subscribing to The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table.

Transcript

[Dan Natterman]

Foreign. This is live from the Table, the official podcast of the world famous comedy seller, coming at you on SiriusXM 99 Raw Dog and wherever podcasts are available. Dan Natterman here, along with Noam Dwarman, owner of the world famous, ever expanding Comedy Cellar, along with his wife, Juanita Dwarman. Hello, Juanita.

[Noam Dwarman]

Hi.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Thank you.

[Dan Natterman]

She's the first time she's been on the show in person. I think we've had her on.

[Noam Dwarman]

You've never been on the show before?

[Dan Natterman]

Well, in person, Lucy's never been on the show before.

[Noam Dwarman]

No.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I think I was here once before, maybe.

[Dan Natterman]

So Periel's not here. I'm not sure where she is, but she's not here. We have a marriage counselor coming a little bit later to discuss Noam and Juanita's marriage.

[Noam Dwarman]

As we started the show, Dan was making me an offer to buy us out, like Mo Green. Don't buy me out. I buy you out.

[Dan Natterman]

Noam was complaining about all the emails he's getting. And he said, leave me alone, world. And I said, are these business emails? And he said, yes. And I said, well, sell the comedy seller and you won't have any more business emails. So he said, make me an offer. So I don't have any money to offer, but hypothetically, I offered you 15 million, Juanita.

[Noam Dwarman]

You want to take it for 15 million? Well, but.

[Juanita Dwarman]

No.

[Noam Dwarman]

What does that mean, 15 million?

[Dan Natterman]

Well, plus the. You mean. Does it mean the real estate or just the. Yeah, you can still own the real estate, but if you want me to buy the real estate, I'll pay you fair market value for the real estate that you own that's associated with the comedy seller. So I guess that would be 7 million for the McDonald's. And. Oh, that was in the New York Post. So it's not 7.3. And whatever this building is worth, plus 15 million on top.

[Noam Dwarman]

Why would you think that the McDonald's is still worth 7.3? How do you know it hasn't appreciated?

[Dan Natterman]

Well, I don't know. I'm just throwing it out there. You know, whatever the fair market value is, as determined by whoever determines these.

[Noam Dwarman]

Things, it's worth whatever someone will pay.

[Dan Natterman]

Plus. Okay, well. But you can get it appraised.

[Noam Dwarman]

Okay, okay, okay, fair enough.

[Dan Natterman]

Plus 15 million just for the business, the comedy seller business. You can stay on for six months to teach me how to do it.

[Juanita Dwarman]

It is not enough.

[Noam Dwarman]

So let me see. So that's. You're talking about like 22 maybe, plus maybe $30 million. And then why don't you probably take half, plus child support. That's why it's not enough after taxes.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Is not enough after taxes. After I take all of the money from you, it's not enough.

[Noam Dwarman]

But dangle that kind of money in front of her, that says she's gonna go. Her and Jamal will be gone somewhere in the South Pacific.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Why do you always say Jamal?

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't know. That's how I picture.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, I mean, I figure.

[Noam Dwarman]

Figure after 30 years of a. You're going black. That's what I assume.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, we can talk about that.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Every guy. Every.

[Dan Natterman]

We'll certainly talk about that with the marriage counselor. Whether Juanita should, you know, there's something missing from her life because she's getting a small white penis. But are you taking the offer or no?

[Noam Dwarman]

No, no, no, no.

[Dan Natterman]

How about the real estate plus 30 million?

[Noam Dwarman]

No, the thing is, I need. I need some like that.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Maybe.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, look.

[Juanita Dwarman]

No.

[Noam Dwarman]

On the one hand, as our friend told us recently, you know, a lot of. A lot of people are reluctant to leave. We should ask this. We should ask or about this. A lot of people are reluctant to leave their kids with advantages because it's not good for them in a certain way.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Oh, yeah. Someone just said that to us.

[Noam Dwarman]

Warren Buffett wants to, you know, leave small amounts of money to his kids, and I get that. On the other hand, being your own boss, it's a very, very nice lifestyle. And would I want to foreclose that option to one of my kids should they want that? You know, like, I took it and I. And I put my own stamp on things. I grew it, I did stuff with it. I shaped it. So it's not like. It's not limiting them. They can take it and run with it, or they can take it and it up, which is usually the way. Usually what happens when kids take over.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Your scenario is very different than our kids scenario. Okay.

[Noam Dwarman]

Our kids are going to it up.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah. You built a business from scratch. Like.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, no, I built a few businesses.

[Juanita Dwarman]

So. So now you. We're giving them something that's already top notch.

[Noam Dwarman]

I didn't build a commissar from scratch.

[Juanita Dwarman]

No, but you improved it.

[Dan Natterman]

As to whether it could be further improved. I, you know, improved it. It's arguable. You've maxed it out. Given.

[Noam Dwarman]

You know, there's always other things can be done with it. With a name, you can. You can go movies, you can go into management. You can go. You can write. You can do all kinds of stuff with a. With a brand like that. You can, you can.

[Dan Natterman]

Right, okay.

[Noam Dwarman]

License it out, you know, trans. Franchise it. Who knows? Who knows?

[Dan Natterman]

Okay, so, so you, that's a consideration is, is leaving it to the kids is a big consideration for you?

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Or they can sell it to you, Dan.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, if I have, you know, if I, if I had the kind of money to buy it, I wouldn't, I wouldn't because I'd have that kind of money.

[Noam Dwarman]

If you own the comedy seller, would you like MC the shows every night?

[Dan Natterman]

And if you bequeathed me the comedy seller. No, I wouldn't emcee. I don't like emceeing.

[Noam Dwarman]

What's his name?

[Dan Natterman]

I would work here, but I don't like emceeing. I never liked emceeing. I did it like about 10 years ago. I wanted some extra money, so I asked Estie to emcee if I could emcee. And very quickly, as soon as I didn't need it anymore, I'm like, nah, I seize no more of this shit.

[Noam Dwarman]

That guy who I liked very much, but he's ghosted me since and he's disappeared. James Altucher.

[Dan Natterman]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He moved to Florida.

[Noam Dwarman]

He moved to Florida. Doesn't mean he can't answer his email. He had bought Stand Up New York.

[Dan Natterman]

He bought, yeah, part of it.

[Noam Dwarman]

And he was performing there regularly.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, that's why he bought it to.

[Noam Dwarman]

The chagrin of a lot of the comics.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Like doing a set or like doing his own show.

[Dan Natterman]

I don't know what he.

[Noam Dwarman]

And Carrie Hoffman owns Stand up, also owned Stand Up.

[Dan Natterman]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

And he was emceeing.

[Dan Natterman]

Oh, was he?

[Noam Dwarman]

For a while. Yeah.

[Dan Natterman]

That must have been earlier on.

[Noam Dwarman]

And Rodney Dangerfield, of course.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, no, I wouldn't be the. If I owned a Comedy Cellar, I would just do sets, you know, and I'd probably sell the comedy seller. If I own the. If you bequeath me the comedy seller, the first thing I would probably do is unload it.

[Noam Dwarman]

Now the next question. Let's say I decided, you know what, I'm funny, I'm gonna start emceeing. I'm gonna start emceeing some shows at the Cellar. What would the ripple be through the. Like, they, I mean, there would be.

[Dan Natterman]

A hue and a cry.

[Noam Dwarman]

The communities would just abuse me.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Oh, my God.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Dan Natterman]

I mean, I suppose if you actually stepped up to the plate and were killing, they would have nothing to say about it. I mean, some might be so infuriated that a non comedian all of a sudden was good at it that they would Hate you even more.

[Noam Dwarman]

Bingo. Because when John Mayer used to come down, the comedians were fit to be tied. And the truth was, he was very good.

[Dan Natterman]

But I wasn't getting this. Some of them were upset and others were thought. I mean, my take on it is whether he's good or he's not good, the audience is happy to see him. And that was. That was my take.

[Noam Dwarman]

First of all, that annoys comedians, too. Chris Tucker came down. There's a famous story where Chris Tucker came down, he wasn't doing well, and James Smith grew a hissy fit. And I said, james, and it's time. This is during rush hour. I said, I'm not going to tell the biggest comic movie star in the world that he can't do a set. He goes, I'll tell him. You know, the comedies don't respond.

[Dan Natterman]

My feeling is that if it's good for the comedy seller, it's indirectly good for me, albeit not as good as it is for you. But I don't mind when. Even if John Mayer sucked, the audience wants to see John Mayer for five, 10 minutes.

[Noam Dwarman]

But the important point is that he didn't suck. He was actually quite good. And the comedians couldn't bear to admit it.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, maybe just like they could. And I think you exaggerate the extent to which comedians are petty. I'm petty.

[Noam Dwarman]

It's not petty.

[Dan Natterman]

But, you know, I talk to comedians and I'm not hearing the kind of pettiness as I described it that you're describing. If there's killing, most comedians will acknowledge somebody that's killing.

[Noam Dwarman]

I said in an interview that the comedians don't like to laugh when civilians tell jokes. But maybe it's just because I'm not funny.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, or you're not their style. Can we quickly before we.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, to be fair, I was making a joke, but I've been there at the table when somebody was sitting there, whoever it might be, who said something funny. And I would laugh heartily because it was funny. And I have confidence that if I laughed hardly it was funny. And you'd see maybe one comedian, whoever it was, like a good natured comedian would laugh along, but there would always be a few comedians who would keep a stiff upper lip because it bugged them.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, maybe, maybe, maybe.

[Noam Dwarman]

And then they laugh almost like that fake, you know, they pat their. That's something another comedian says. It also isn't even that funny.

[Dan Natterman]

Anyway, yeah, I did want to talk briefly. We mentioned this last week when we had Todd Barry on. You weren't here. I think you're celebrating your birthday. Was that correct or. That was two weeks ago.

[Noam Dwarman]

Is it coming up? No, I just had it. I'm 61. July 17th.

[Dan Natterman]

How's that hit you? Is it worse than 60?

[Noam Dwarman]

No, 60 was worse.

[Dan Natterman]

60 is 60, I'm told, is a. Colin described it as a surreal experience to turn 60.

[Noam Dwarman]

Colin Quinn. Yeah, it's weird to be 60. I feel. I don't feel 60. Right.

[Dan Natterman]

But you know, it. You know that it's true.

[Noam Dwarman]

My wife reminds me of it.

[Dan Natterman]

I mean, 50. 50 was. Was, for me, was. You know, was. It was a. It was a biggie. But I think 60s, you know, logarithmically, it's like the Richter scale, you know? I mean, an 8 is bad, 9 is.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Gnome is so healthy, the decibels are saying it's ridiculous. But, like, he plays basketball with the kids, he's running around all the time, and that worries me sometimes. I'm like, you maybe shouldn't be doing that.

[Noam Dwarman]

I can still have sex.

[Dan Natterman]

No, he should be exercising.

[Juanita Dwarman]

You still got it.

[Dan Natterman]

He should be. Any doctor will tell you you should never just say, well, I'm too old to do this and not do it right. Do whatever you're capable of doing. I mean, if the doctor says you got, you know, your arteries are clogged or whatever, then.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I don't know. Sometimes I'm sitting in my yard and I go, oh, my God, that's my man up there. He's 60. He shouldn't be doing that.

[Dan Natterman]

60 is not what it used to be.

[Noam Dwarman]

And sometimes I see Juanita in the yard. I'm like, oh, my God, that's my wife. She's 51.

[Juanita Dwarman]

No, I'm not 51.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'll be 50. She's 40. She's 49. She's gonna be 50 years old. I've said before, my father, I don't think he ever slept with a woman over 40. I'm not kidding.

[Juanita Dwarman]

You've matured.

[Dan Natterman]

Even toward the end of his life.

[Noam Dwarman]

Even towards the end of his life. I don't.

[Dan Natterman]

Ava was under 40.

[Juanita Dwarman]

No, she was in her early 40s when he passed, but I don't know.

[Noam Dwarman]

If they were still sleeping. No, I guess. I guess. I guess. I guess so. Yeah, but, you know, that wasn't his style.

[Dan Natterman]

I did want to discuss, briefly. We mentioned, as I said last week, I mean, of.

[Noam Dwarman]

I mean, you know, fully, fully mature women.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, should we talk about Montreal? Is that. Did anything interesting happen? You went to the festival in Montreal, So if nothing interesting happened there, we'll Talk about the regal movie theater thing. If something is interesting about Montreal, then, you know.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, Montreal was interesting because I saw a lot of mezzanines, and we were trying to build a mezzanine in a new club. They went to four shows. I think I went to three of them. Apparently, the three I went to bombed, and they saw one that was good.

[Dan Natterman]

Was your purpose to go there to scope talent or just because you wanted to go to Montreal?

[Noam Dwarman]

None. Juanita wanted to go to Montreal. Esti.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I think Estee wanted to go.

[Dan Natterman]

And remember, the IRS is listening. So if you plan on deducting this trip, you better come up with a business rationale.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, yes, it is business. It just doesn't mean I wanted to do it.

[Juanita Dwarman]

But as they wanted to scope some new.

[Noam Dwarman]

But we all. We did. We saw shows and scope talent, and we saw. Apparently we saw some people, but I would have preferred not to have done it.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, did you find kids had a great. Did you find people that you're going to use here or in Vegas?

[Juanita Dwarman]

A few, yeah.

[Dan Natterman]

I mean, people ask me, why. Why is Noman Montreal? And I said, well, I don't know, but.

[Noam Dwarman]

Who asked you that?

[Dan Natterman]

I forgot. Somebody asked me. And I said, Trump uses that device as well. Well, no, I don't remember people saying to me. I remember saying to somebody I don't know, but I know that Noam has this thing where he. If he doesn't use somebody that later becomes famous, he kicks him, he'll kick himself. He wants to know if there's somebody he's not using. He asks that question all the time, is there somebody I'm not using?

[Noam Dwarman]

It's worse than that. There's a few people. Not me. It was not me. There's a few people who've been passed on. Not passed, but passed over.

[Dan Natterman]

You mean ignored. Not used.

[Noam Dwarman]

Not used, not used. Who became very big and they don't.

[Dan Natterman]

Come here as a result.

[Noam Dwarman]

And sometimes I have, like, shudders, you know, in the middle of the night about it because it bothers me so much.

[Dan Natterman]

You know, nobody bats a thousand. But do you think that.

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't know that.

[Dan Natterman]

Do you think they're cut not. Are they not coming here because they hold a grudge that you didn't use them at the time? Does that seem to be a thing?

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, I don't know how you want to put that. That could be the case. Or it could also.

[Dan Natterman]

Oh, these people not coming here.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, they don't come here. It could be the case that they're holding a grudge or it could simply be the case that they don't live here, they don't have any sentimental attachment here. So why would they. Why would they come here? Like, I know that, like, when Chappelle comes to town, he likes to come here, I'm assuming, because it reminds him of a happy.

[Dan Natterman]

But objectively speaking, to work out new material. It's a good place to come for them because you always get a big audience. You don't want to work out jokes in front of five people. Although. Although you can if they're listening and attentive and good. But also a bigger act, a name act, I don't think wants to go up in front of five people because it just looks. Doesn't look right. Yeah, like you're a major name to go up in front of five people kind of is, I think, affects the brand. So this is an objectively good place to work out material. So if somebody's not coming here, I think we can presume that. I mean, it might be just a little more than not having a sentimental attachment.

[Noam Dwarman]

It could be. So, for instance, Nate Borgazzi, he performed here from time to time, I think. But Steve Fabricant was always pushing Nate Bragazzi.

[Dan Natterman]

I know you've mentioned it before. Yeah. Mentioned Nate in this context.

[Noam Dwarman]

And I wasn't really on top of things at that point, and I don't know what went wrong with that, but clearly.

[Dan Natterman]

But did he. So you just. You saw him and you weren't blown away or.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, I didn't see him at all. Somehow the decision was made. He was never, like, not performing here. He just wasn't. He was underutilized. And Steve was always saying, you should be using more. You should be using him more. Now, I don't know that anybody. Nobody ever told me we shouldn't. I don't know what was going on. Like, that's the problem. I think sometimes.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, he doesn't. He lives in, I think, Nashville or something, so he's not even here so much.

[Noam Dwarman]

But anyway, he became huge, and we were not using him or not using him like we should have been. So I don't know what happened with that. There is some story also with Jim Gaffigan. He does come here from time to time, but something happened with Gaffigan years ago. I don't know. It was before. Was while my father was still alive. So I don't even know.

[Dan Natterman]

So the comedy seller is doing a simulcast, if that's the right word, at the Regal Movie Theater chain.

[Noam Dwarman]

They're at 48 theaters 48 theaters along the East Coast, I think, standing all the way west to Texas.

[Dan Natterman]

August 5th.

[Noam Dwarman]

I think it is August 5th. This coming Saturday.

[Dan Natterman]

So there's gonna be a show at I guess the Village Underground, I assume. Cause that's the best place to film shit.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Dan Natterman]

And it'll be simulcast again, if that's the word, broadcast simulcast at these theaters so the people can go to the theater, get their popcorns, you know, sit in the seat and watch make out and watch stand up comedy on a movie screen. Stand up comedy on a movie screen. I mean, I saw Eddie Murphy raw on the movie screen, but it was Eddie Murphy. So the question is, will this work? And is there. No. I mean, ticket sales is, you know, are they robust or.

[Noam Dwarman]

Ticket sales are not bad. Actually. Ticket sales are exceeding what I thought, but I don't know how to judge it because as I said to Bill, the guy, you know, who's involved in this with me, in my whole life, I've never or been or accompanied anybody who purchased a ticket for a movie before the day of the movie. I just don't. It's just.

[Dan Natterman]

Yeah, yeah. Precisely the case. Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

So I'm assuming this is a little bit different.

[Dan Natterman]

Maybe arguably or maybe not.

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't think so. I think that like the opening of a Star wars movie, you might buy in advance because you know it's gonna be sold out.

[Dan Natterman]

Right.

[Noam Dwarman]

This is the kind of thing you. You decide at the last minute you might even be. And then there's two ways to look at also. So this is an unusual period because we have two blockbuster movies out there, the Oppenheimer movie and the Barbie movie, which has been any block movies a long time. So the question is, is that going to suck the audience away from us? That seems most likely. Or will people be sold out for these shows so they'll end up going. Buying a ticket for the seller because often you go see movies because everything.

[Dan Natterman]

Else sold out also arguably, I don't know, maybe gets people into a movie going frame of mind. It just puts it out there that it's still a thing to go to the movie theater.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah. So we're having all kinds of internal political, like problems. The sound wasn't right at the, at the. At the test thing. I wanted a Dolby 5.1. They're having trouble getting that done for me. There was an article in Vulture magazine today which made it sound different than it was. There's always shit. It's always shit for these things. I should handle everything myself.

[Dan Natterman]

Assuming you want to.

[Noam Dwarman]

But No, I don't want to.

[Dan Natterman]

That's the problem. And Mint Comedy is involved as well. They do the. Every week. I guess they do.

[Noam Dwarman]

So Mint Comedy is the company that was started initially by Mustafa, who was Chappelle's manager. And they've been doing them as a partner. Arnold is my friend. And they've been doing weekly shows streaming. So we brought them in because they have a whole infrastructure for streaming now. So I brought them into this idea to take care of. Take care of the streaming end.

[Dan Natterman]

So whose idea was this initially?

[Noam Dwarman]

This was Bill Grundfest idea, who was, you know, the guy who founded the comedy seller. And I. And I didn't have much faith in the idea at first until I saw the first test. The first test of the movies was fantastic.

[Dan Natterman]

It just looks really good.

[Noam Dwarman]

It looked good, it sounded good, everything. The last test I saw was it yesterday, Day before yesterday. Yesterday that wasn't so good. So we had to get on Thursday night to fix it again.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, I mean. So you're sensitive. Are you optimistic, pessimistic? Or you're just. We'll wait and see. I think Orna is here.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'm pessimistic.

[Dan Natterman]

Okay, but you're. I mean, that's sort of your nature anyway.

[Noam Dwarman]

No.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yes it is.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, it's not my nature.

[Dan Natterman]

Okay.

[Noam Dwarman]

My nature is not to be pessimistic.

[Dan Natterman]

So you're optimistic about the McDonald's?

[Noam Dwarman]

Yes. My nature is to be realistic.

[Dan Natterman]

Which might be. Well, Periel always gives me shit because she accuses me of pessimism.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, cause you're depressive. But we'll ask Orno about that.

[Juanita Dwarman]

We're not in the movie business, you know, so we don't really know what's going to happen.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, the big question is in this question I can't answer is this. Are people going to want to watch stand up on screen? My only experience with it is having seen Eddie Murphy raw in 19 whenever the it was.

[Juanita Dwarman]

But this is different, right? It's. It's broadcast live. So you don't.

[Dan Natterman]

Right. This is live.

[Noam Dwarman]

Anything can happen.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Anything can happen.

[Dan Natterman]

This is live, but it's not Eddie Murphy.

[Noam Dwarman]

So yeah, now if you don't speak.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

English, you can't hear that bit. If all you hear is ass. Shit, shit. See, I got a lot of foreigners that come over.

[Noam Dwarman]

I got a lot of people from other countries that have seen my films that come over to the United States. Cuz in New York is like a tourist place and they get HBO and they catch Delirious and they can't Speak English and try to do my act on the street. And all they got is the curses. I got foreigners from all over the.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

World walking up going, eddie Murphy. You. You, Andy. I know you.

[Noam Dwarman]

I see you on television.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

You're the fuck you, man. Right?

[Noam Dwarman]

I love it.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Suck my dick, huh?

[Noam Dwarman]

Suck it.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Your black motherfucker. I love it.

[Dan Natterman]

We got what looks to be a husky, I guess. Siberian husky.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Beautiful dog.

[Dan Natterman]

Gorgeous dog. Hello, Orna.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Hi.

[Dan Natterman]

I'll just give you a brief intro while you're settling in.

[Noam Dwarman]

Is that a authorized therapy dog? That sounds like a racket to me. A therapist gets the authorized good person.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

She's an authorized everything.

[Dan Natterman]

Dr. Orna Goralnick.

[Noam Dwarman]

Trained. You know, a friend of ours just went through that. Yeah.

[Dan Natterman]

Clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst on the faculty at New York University. My fake alma mater. When I on stage, when I talk about my alma mater, I say NYU, but it's not true. It's UPenn. I say NYU because I think upenn sounds arrogant.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Oh, God. Just be yourself.

[Dan Natterman]

Be myself. There's nothing in my act that's myself. Everything in my act is a fraud.

[Noam Dwarman]

It sounded a little arrogant just now when you had to slip it in.

[Dan Natterman]

I have to say, okay, okay, if you say so. Although, yeah, NYU just sounds like, you know, a state school.

[Noam Dwarman]

Not a state school.

[Dan Natterman]

I know, but it sounds like one. I guess so does you. Penn. But anyway, she's featured on Showtime's documentary series.

[Noam Dwarman]

Now, if you went to Harvard, would you think. You wouldn't say Harvard?

[Dan Natterman]

You know, I would. If people say, where'd you go to school? I would say Harvard. Because it's. Even a lot of people say, I went to school in Cambridge. That sounds even more ridiculous. You just come out and say Harvard.

[Noam Dwarman]

Harrison Greenbaum shoehorns Harvard into every conversation.

[Dan Natterman]

I wouldn't shoehorn it in, but if somebody asked me point blank, I would say Harvard. You know, did you. Where did you go to school?

[Noam Dwarman]

Or.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

No, Many schools.

[Dan Natterman]

Many schools.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Spent half my life in schools.

[Noam Dwarman]

Okay, you have to talk.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, anyway, happy life in schools.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah. But my last school was indeed NYU postdoc. NYU. Postdoctoral program in psychoanalysis. 10 years there. Those were the last 10 years.

[Noam Dwarman]

Are you friends with Jonathan.

[Dan Natterman]

Are you Jonathan Haidt?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Who's.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I'm sorry, One at a time.

[Noam Dwarman]

Jonathan Haidt.

[Dan Natterman]

No. When in doubt, Antinom's questions.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

No, no.

[Noam Dwarman]

Okay.

[Dan Natterman]

No, he's the boss. I said I detected a slight accent. Am I incorrect in that?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Israel.

[Dan Natterman]

Oh, Israel.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Spent formative year in Israel years.

[Dan Natterman]

Okay. Yeah, very slight, very subtle.

[Noam Dwarman]

Did you serve in the military?

[Dan Natterman]

Yes, we had. We had on.

[Noam Dwarman]

We'd like to talk about the judicial override, if you don't mind.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Let's do. No, no, let's do.

[Noam Dwarman]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, I mean, we have enough to talk about here. Noam and Juanita are a married couple.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Climate and the judicial. Overall, I thought that's what we're here for.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, there is actually. There is actually an angle, so I will let Dan start. But I heard you. We were listening to you on the. On the radio, on a podcast on the way in, and you were talking about how politics bears on people's. You didn't use the word problems as my layman's word of it bears on a psychology, on the things they react to. How they react to things, whatever it is. And I had written an email to somebody not long ago that underneath all this hullabaloo about the judicial override is a psychological dynamic of the people on one side who feel that they're constantly dismissed and looked down upon, treated like deplorables. Kind of, you know, true. And the elites. And this is kind of fueling a lot of this stuff, although everybody talks about it in intellectual terms. You have an aggrieved, resentful population and an elite population that doesn't wanna say it out loud, but to some extent look down on these people and won't permit themselves to say it. So you wanna start with that?

[Dan Natterman]

Well, you know, given that, what else.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Is there to talk about?

[Noam Dwarman]

I brought my wife here. She's usually home washing dishes.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I don't think we should talk about that, too.

[Dan Natterman]

I don't think she likes it. She says, I don't think that the average listener would be quite as interested in Israeli politics as they are in marital advice.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Okay, so it is kind of. There is some parallel thinking.

[Dan Natterman]

Perhaps so. But why don't we focus on.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, go ahead, say what you want to say. Yes, of course.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I can't.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yes, of course.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Sick debate. But it is also a mindset that is then inducted into people, which is to think that way, to think into, like, elite versus deplorables. It's a particular kind of mindset. Mindset that the same people, let's say, in a different marital situation, would think differently.

[Noam Dwarman]

I agree with you. It is a mindset, but it's the political mindset of much of the Western world right now. It touches on Brexit. It touches on a lot of things.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Which brings us to climate.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yes.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, it's funny you should mention climate. Just we don't have to discuss it, but I went head to head with Dave Smith, who's a comic. He calls himself libertarian. I'm not exactly sure what that means because it seems to mean different things to different people, but I got in. He, quote, tweeted me, which is a nasty move, because that sicks all his followers on me, and I'm.

[Noam Dwarman]

Were you saying that climate change was a hoax or something?

[Dan Natterman]

No, I said it was real, and his people think it's a hoax. And so I got a lot of people coming at me. But if you wish to discuss that after we get through with you and Juanita, we can do so.

[Juanita Dwarman]

We're in desperate need of therapy here.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, I mean, that's why she's here. You know, I thought.

[Noam Dwarman]

Okay, so. Okay. So you have some questions you want to start with? Because I excerpted some stuff that I've read of hers that I wanted her to.

[Dan Natterman]

No, I think we should talk about marital bliss. And is it achievable?

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, my wife and I have been together for. On and off. For how many years?

[Juanita Dwarman]

29 years.

[Noam Dwarman]

29 years. And we. We met. She was a waitress here.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Here.

[Noam Dwarman]

Here. And I was. And I was the owner. I was 30. She was 19. Is that right?

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

And I harassed her mercilessly and chased her around. She was pregnant, and. But I won her heart. And. And we were married. And I would say, although we fight, you know, she. We don't fight. You know, she's. She's volatile, and she puts me down a lot, and she's impatient, and. But. But as. As mar. I think we have. We've had a happy 30 years, right. For the most part.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

What?

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, tell her. Have we not had a happy 30 years? We're still together.

[Juanita Dwarman]

We're still together. Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

Do you want to leave me?

[Juanita Dwarman]

No, I don't.

[Dan Natterman]

That's for the children.

[Noam Dwarman]

At this point. How come you don't want to leave me?

[Juanita Dwarman]

Because I love you.

[Noam Dwarman]

Okay.

[Juanita Dwarman]

But we've had a lot of bad times, too.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, yeah, we had some bad times.

[Dan Natterman]

You chased her down, you're saying? Because there's a school of thought that says, you know, Morgan Freeman once said, don't chase women. Let them chase you. But you chased her, and it worked subtly.

[Noam Dwarman]

Then she chased me back.

[Dan Natterman]

Okay.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I guess.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah. Anyway.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Not really.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Would you like to tell me?

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, tell her. Go ahead.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Well, a lot of that is true, but I think that everyone. Everyone's story is different. This is his story. This is how he sees our relationship. Right. I don't see it like that.

[Noam Dwarman]

You want to start with our previous couples therapy?

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah, we've been in therapy before. We've had a lot of issues before we marry.

[Noam Dwarman]

When we went to couples.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I'm a mom.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah, I think he. When we.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Because you. Because you were already in a pattern or because you were afraid she dragged me into it.

[Noam Dwarman]

Why do we. Why. Why did we go to couples therapy?

[Juanita Dwarman]

I think that was already. After, like, maybe almost seven years of dating.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I was like, maybe we were already in a pattern.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah, we were in a pattern. Look, we dated two and a half years, and I thought everything was great. And then one day he called me up and said, I don't. Do you remember this?

[Noam Dwarman]

No.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Do you want to talk about it?

[Noam Dwarman]

No. You can. You can.

[Juanita Dwarman]

So, you know, he's old. He's 11 years older than me. So we were dating, like two and a half years. And this is the first guy that's ever broken up with me, by the way. I don't even know if Noam knows this.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, you told me, like 20 times.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Okay. So he, like, calls me up and says on the phone, this is how immature he was at the time, in his 30s, to say, Listen, I. I don't think I. What did you say exactly? It was something along the lines of, I don't think I can give you what you need.

[Noam Dwarman]

I can't believe I did say that.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Because I was already a mom, you know? So I was looking for something a little more stable and serious, and he was still running around, you know, Carousing.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, as it were.

[Juanita Dwarman]

So half of our relationship was like that. Him running around, you know.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Wait, but running around you. You said, I don't think I can give you what you need. Meaning maybe he felt deficient.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah. Because he couldn't be faithful.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Or maybe he was unfaithful because he felt deficient.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I don't know.

[Dan Natterman]

I think he was unfaithful because he was in his 30s.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Is that what it is?

[Dan Natterman]

And owned a. I think he's unfaithful.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'm sorry.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I think it's a very selfish thing that men do when they can have.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

But when people like deficient, lacking, they try to compensate.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Okay, I never thought of it that way.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

One theory.

[Dan Natterman]

Look, he was. He was.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I don't think that was it, but go ahead.

[Dan Natterman]

The reason he couldn't be faithful is because he was a. Well to do, 30 something that owned a music club.

[Juanita Dwarman]

That's right.

[Noam Dwarman]

Playing on stage.

[Dan Natterman]

He's a musician. And I mean, that's a. You know.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Meaning.

[Dan Natterman]

Meaning it's hard to be faithful, given that situation.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, it's hard to wanna be faithful.

[Dan Natterman]

Because the options are fairly. Well, I don't think he was drugging, but he was drinking. He likes a Frangelico and an occasional joint. But the opportunities were boundless, you know.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

The opportunities boundless everywhere.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, I think if you're.

[Juanita Dwarman]

No, I think.

[Dan Natterman]

I think less so than if you own a music club and you're on the stage at that music club.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Right. What were you doing?

[Juanita Dwarman]

And women are throwing the stage.

[Noam Dwarman]

I play guitar. So look, it is. It. It was what? It was. There was. There is one story where we did go to couples therapy.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

And the therapy session ended with the. You want to tell her.

[Juanita Dwarman]

With the therapist giving him a foot massage. And I swear, I start.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

What?

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah, I start hysterically crying.

[Noam Dwarman]

She says, you're very. She says you must be very stressed. First she said. She says something else to me. She goes. She says, you must have been treated with a lot of compassion in your life. I said, she said, you're. You're very kind. And then she. You must have a lot of. I think you have a lot of stress. I've been studying reflexology, and she began to give me a full time.

[Juanita Dwarman]

She's like, can I try a little? And I just start. I just silently start crying, seeing the chat. And I. In the middle of that, I go, get up. This session is over. I, like, literally, I'll be there in a few minutes.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

So this is what we call.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, I think Juanita was correct.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I was what we call an enactment where the thing you're complaining about that's happening out there starts happening in the therapy session.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

I never even thought of that.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah. It's so fucked up.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Wow.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

But now you acknowledge it wasn't my fault. I didn't do anything.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

No. The responsibility is not.

[Noam Dwarman]

I wasn't.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Seduce her patient.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Right.

[Noam Dwarman]

But it wasn't sexual. It was. It was not.

[Juanita Dwarman]

No. I think she was so kooky and so, like.

[Noam Dwarman]

It was flaky. It wasn't.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

It was like peace and love kind of stuff.

[Dan Natterman]

Is there anything you guys are working on now that you'd like? We work Dr. Gnick to help you with.

[Juanita Dwarman]

That's what I'm working every day. Him.

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't know what is.

[Dan Natterman]

What is not working. This in the bedroom. Everything is.

[Noam Dwarman]

Everything's fine in our. Shut up, Dan. No, everything's fine. I mean, I. Listen, this is. This is one thing I do all the time. And I don't know if it's healthy or unhealthy. I know. We know so many other married couples, and when I compare their relationships to ours.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah, he does this all the time.

[Noam Dwarman]

I think that I have the healthiest marriage of anybody I know. I don't know any marriages where everybody's like, oh, my God, we still, you know, like, everything's fine. Everybody's had it up to here, where their husband and wife are always sick. They leave the cap off the toothpaste, doesn't take out the garbage, whatever. We fight about all kinds of stuff, Right. You have three kids. The kids play you against each other. You have different visions for how the kids should be raised. She's Puerto Rican. She's used to whacking her kids. I'm Jewish. I get turned off when she wants to whack the kids. These are real issues. However, when all is said and done, when I compare it to the other marriages, I know I think I'm very lucky. So that's right.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I guess you are very lucky.

[Dan Natterman]

I guess we can talk about climate change.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I don't ever compare our relationship. Our relationship to anybody else's relationship. But you do that all the time.

[Noam Dwarman]

I do that. I can't help it.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, you don't ever compare it to.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

What we were saying earlier about, like, lacking comparison. Ego.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

Is it ego?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, I make comparisons. Maybe. Maybe I don't realize that it's ego, and I'm just rationalizing this, but I feel like when I have a problem in anything in life, not just my marriage, to gain perspective, because it's very easy to lose perspective on one situation, because whatever you're thinking about, because the most important thing in the world, and you can, you know, I say, okay, take it. Zoom out. What is this, like, for the other. For 20 other people that I know, I say, oh, actually, what am I. What am I so upset about? I don't have. I don't have. This guy's cheating, and this guy's. This one's married to an alcoholic, and this one's mean, and she's, you know, like a million. A million things going on. You know, actually, my wife and I have a good relationship. You know, we. We spend time together. We. Everything's fine.

[Dan Natterman]

Noam's afraid to ask this, so I'll ask it on his behalf. What do you think about marriages wherein couples are authorized to have extramarital affairs?

[Noam Dwarman]

Thank you, Dan.

[Juanita Dwarman]

No one was afraid to ask this.

[Dan Natterman]

Can this work? Can this work? A more open type situation.

[Noam Dwarman]

Polyamory.

[Dan Natterman]

Yeah. Polyamory, any of these things.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Ethical non monogamy.

[Dan Natterman]

Okay, if you like. Is this a feasible strategy?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I will answer, but why are you asking?

[Noam Dwarman]

He's joking about me.

[Dan Natterman]

I'm jokingly saying that. Gnome. Well, look, I mean, I don't know if Noam would turn it down anyway. Well, it is.

[Noam Dwarman]

I would not turn down ethical one sided non monogamy.

[Dan Natterman]

I know a married couple, they go to this club where they, you know, they. They exchange swing. Yeah, but not often, but once in a while.

[Noam Dwarman]

But do I know them?

[Dan Natterman]

I don't believe you do, but we'll talk about it after the show. And it seems to work for them. But maybe there's some. Maybe they're sowing the seeds of discord without even knowing it. Or is this potentially a healthy thing? If everybody's on board, There are many.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

People that are engaging in what they call now E and M. Right. Ethical non monogamy. All sorts of variations of it. We have a few people on the show that are in those relationships. We have a polycule on the show now that we're taping that are.

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't know what that phrase means.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Polycule, meaning they have multiple relationships. They're polyamorous, but they are non hierarchical. There are many ways that they define their relationship. So it's like a. I mean, think of like a morphing kind of structure. Okay, anyway. But what do I think of it? I have many thoughts about it. It's happening a lot among younger people. A lot. I have all sorts of theories about why it's happening now. Some of them I have like a lot of admiration and respect for, like, why young people are choosing to go that way, which we can talk about. But I also see them coming up against the things that more traditional relationships are bound by, which is like possessiveness, jealousy, needing to feel special, needing to have some kind of boundary around even, you know, finance and bodily boundaries. So I see the struggle. But there are reasons why people are doing it nowadays. They don't trust the old structures anymore.

[Dan Natterman]

And should they? Are they onto something?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

They don't trust a lot of things. They don't trust hierarchy anymore in a big way. Everything's gonna lead back to climate. So just. They don't trust authority anymore. They feel like the older generations have seriously failed them. They don't trust this whole system of like, ownership and capitalism. And they're like, there's gotta be some other way to live in this world. They realize that they need different kind of kinship structures that they need to rely on Each other in ways that, you know, these tiny little boxes that we typically live in are not gonna work. If we're really facing what's coming, we're gonna have to find another way to live with each other. We really do depend on each other in ways that we don't like to acknowledge. So they're doing something different. They're really trying something different.

[Noam Dwarman]

Okay. My feeling is. And you tell me that you're wrong, where I'm wrong, I'll tell you that I'm wrong.

[Dan Natterman]

Or he might not be wrong.

[Noam Dwarman]

So in a broad topic, I'm interested to know how you parse what is biological and what is trainable in terms of these things.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I know these things, meaning monogamy.

[Noam Dwarman]

Monogamy, jealousy, you know, and. And. And how that bears on what innate differences there are or are not between men and women. And I. Jealousy and attack, you know, and jealousy of. For affection and things like this. You see this in your children. This is very. And at very young age. So the. The notion to me that you can really actually have people not feel jealous when they're attached to someone, not feel jealous of them having sex with another person. I find this very hard to believe. They can put on their game face for a while, but I think for most people, most healthy people, it shouldn't last very long. I think that the people who are okay with this, in my small mind, I'm like, there's something wrong with them because you're not supposed to just be able to not care that the person you love is off having sex with other people. Can I. Yeah, I guess. Was there, But I just. And just add to that, just to bring it back in. And I. And I feel like in some way this is harder for women than for men. And that unfortunately, this is my feminist side. I've seen this where women will put up with it even though they don't want to. To hold on to the man, and they'll pretend that they're okay with it, but actually inside there, it's painful for them.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

So those are all. You take any of those or all. None of it and tell me I can.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

There's so much to. You have to remind me of, like every sentence that you said. I have a lot to disagree with.

[Noam Dwarman]

Go ahead.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

To complicate.

[Noam Dwarman]

Okay.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Not necessarily disagree with. Let me just start with, like, a small point.

[Noam Dwarman]

Any part of it.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Pet peeve. But if someone is different from you, I mean, I think we're generally inclined to think if someone is different from me, something's wrong. With them. I'm not vibing with that. I'm like, if someone's different from you, oh, what's going on there? How are we different? I don't know if that means that something's wrong with someone who's okay with ethical non monogamy. They might be different from me, but let's think what's different?

[Noam Dwarman]

I know what you're saying and I purposely put it in a provocative way.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah, I was provoked.

[Noam Dwarman]

But, but, and I know, especially from, from your professional point of view. Yeah, these kind of things matter. Yeah, but I just. So instead of saying unhealthy, say at a tail end of some sort of spectrum which is outside the norm, you.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Know, the norms are changing. I mean, I'm assuming we're kind of of a similar generation. The norms are changing where this is a lot of this ethical non monogamy is coming from people younger.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, so for instance, just tell me. Wrong. A sociopath in a male sociopath who doesn't have a conscience or whatever it is, who I'm not saying is not normal, but these people exist in some way.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Not normal. Actually, sociopathy is not normal.

[Noam Dwarman]

But it exists. It exists, definitely exists. And somebody like that could be very manipulative in a relationship and allows and put up with certain things because he has inability to attach.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Right. But this is not what we're talking about.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, that's what I was thinking. Like a man who is really comfortable with things, which would make me very jealous and upset and hurtful in some way in my mind. Well, it's because they have difficulty attaching. That's why they're able to put up with it. That's why I said not normal, not healthy. Not healthy.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I get it.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Well, that's, I think that's. I mean, unless we're talking. I mean I'm distinguishing here between people who say serially cheat, lie, can't actually attach to one person, are looking for some kind of what I would think of as compensation for something else that's bothering them. I'm not talking about that. I'm specifically talking about ethical non monogamy, which I find really interesting. It's different from my generation. A lot of my younger patients are coming in with that and I'm watching it closely and finding it really interesting. And these are people that are devoting like an enormous amount of like emotional and intellectual resources to thinking about other people. They're deeply involved in relating, like way more than I'm relating. And I'm like an analyst. But they're caring and relating and thinking about fairness and equality and the goodness of other people is top of mind for them. So this is very, very far from sociopathy. And they talk very openly about, like, jealousy, possessiveness. It's not like they're denying those kind of feelings. But the overall message they're bringing into my office is, okay, we might be. We might have to struggle with those kind of feelings of feelings left. Feeling left out of certain kind of relationships. Possessiveness. But they're gaining a certain kind of both. Joy, love, more love. The more love, the more love. Getting fun.

[Noam Dwarman]

More love. Cause more people.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Because there are more people to love, more people to have sex with, more people to, like, learn from. And there's something about this kind of expansive community that is less, you know, let's circle the wagons around my little turf and my tiny little family. That is the future. I mean, there's kind of a real vision about what's coming in, the way they're conducting. And it's really not a lot about sex. It's about community relatedness, different kinship structures, and it's even about, like, different economic structures. They struggle with what's mine, what's ours. Like, how much can we share? It's kind of an evolved philosophy.

[Noam Dwarman]

Wanna give it a try, sweetheart?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

No.

[Noam Dwarman]

Okay, go ahead.

[Juanita Dwarman]

It's not of our generation.

[Dan Natterman]

Do you think?

[Juanita Dwarman]

Sometimes we have young children and I'm like, oh, my God, what is it gonna be like for them when they're getting into. We have nine year old also.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Who tells me about his relationships. And he was recently, last year, involved with someone who was married, had four kids, and wanted to be with him. And I was like, what is going on here? You know, it's scary to me. It's not. I don't want to say abnormal.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

It's not abnormal. Yeah, it's scary.

[Juanita Dwarman]

It's scary. Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Because I understand. Do you want to say what scares you?

[Juanita Dwarman]

Because of what Noam was saying earlier, There are emotions that go on. People get jealous. People kill one another over these kind of love type of triangles. And I'm like, I don't know.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Right. But people, you know, in certain parts of the world, people kill. I mean, a brother can kill his sister because she was raped.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Right.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

It's partially culturally determined. It's not from within. It's. What kind of. What is the kinship structure? What is the ideology around your relationship that you're living accordingly? I mean, this is. They're not alone. They're. They're. They're building communities.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I agree but, you know, there's something. There's a lot of reality shows about this now.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah.

[Juanita Dwarman]

That are coming out and I do watch a few of them. And it. Within that group of people, there is all of those things that no one was saying. There's jealousy, that one doesn't want her to be with the other person. And there's always one person that's in control of that group. So to me, it's kind of cult like also, because there's always one person who is in control of who's going to be where and do what. To me, that's not something that's like, shared and we're all agreeing and that's not communal. Yeah, that's cultish.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Interesting.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I don't know any of these shows, but that. That is interesting. That would worry me too.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Well, all of those poly shows too. This, the male that's married to all these women, you don't. You know, there's a new show now where there's a woman who's with two men and bringing on a third into her home, you know, into a relationship.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

So you're saying some of these arrangements are around, like one kind of cultish personality.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Juanita Dwarman]

One person who's in of everything that's going on.

[Dan Natterman]

I think Orin is saying that that doesn't have to be the case. It doesn't have to be the case.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

That's interesting.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, she's seeing is what's interesting for a television producer too.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I see.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah. No, but I've seen that. Look, we know people who were swingers. We know.

[Noam Dwarman]

I know people who've tried polyamory and without exception, it's been a phase and they couldn't actually pull it. But that doesn't mean that nobody can pull it.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

And I know plenty of people that go through that as a phase of their relationship and then they're like, ugh, it's. It's too much, too much to deal with. It's too much responsibility, too much pain, too much to think about. And then they're like, forget it.

[Noam Dwarman]

This would be interesting to me.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Can I just go back to one more thing about, like, biology and gender.

[Noam Dwarman]

Differences and where human nature is, you know?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

What's your, what is your view of.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Human nature, first of all, just in terms of, like, studies about sexuality? It's. What's funny is that when you do real studies about sexuality, women are the ones that are novelty seeking. So women get very habituated to sexual. And lose interest in sexual partners.

[Noam Dwarman]

Oh, you don't have to Tell me. I'm so sorry.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

But this is the explanation way faster than men. So it's not rooted in biology. I really do think it has to do with masculinity, ego, and the way women are kind of.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, is what you just described rooted in biology? Are women losing interest quickly? I don't know, but it's important to know, right? Because how could.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I don't know. I'm just telling you that empirically, like, that's what the studies show, that even though women are kind of given the role of like, being the ones that are like, relational and kind of pulling the relationship together and the men supposedly are pulling out sexually, women lose interest faster. So it's, you know, you could think that part of this whole. The way people are socialized is that women are actually, you know, their feet are tied in many ways because of this inclination.

[Noam Dwarman]

So relatedly, I'm sure you know this. When AshleyMadison.com got hacked, which was this website for people to find extramarital affairs, right?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

It got hacked.

[Noam Dwarman]

This is about seven, eight years ago.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

That's funny. What happened with the hacking?

[Noam Dwarman]

They found that it was something like 90% men and 10% prostitutes, that virtually no women were on that site, were actually on that site seeking the novelty. My presumption was that women, if they wanted to have extramarital affairs, they didn't want anonymous affairs so much with somebody on an app. They wanted romance or whatever, whatever corny thing you want to put to. But. And this is a pattern, of course, if you look at any online sex, Craigslist or whatever it is, they're all ads for women, geared, aimed at men or gay men. You don't see a market for women doing this stuff. So why is that?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Women are. I mean, first of all, the world is quite dangerous for women. And I think it would be pretty risky for women to go out there and like, look for sex. I mean, that's like a basic fact, horrible fact about the world we live in. So I think it's super risky, first of all, literally risky. But also psychologically and sociologically. I mean, women are not supposed to like and want sex. It's not the way women are raised. So they're not going to be suddenly jumping out of this whole, like, social narrative and like, going on, I don't know what websites and, and looking for sex. It's just like.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, I'm asking why. Why.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I'm saying it's.

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't think.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Dangerous socialize.

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't think it's the same.

[Dan Natterman]

What about.

[Noam Dwarman]

To some extent there might be a safety issue, but I don't think it's the drastic difference.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, what about the argument? Because you could.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'm sorry, alleged. Because you could create. If that. If you. If there was a market for it, you could create a safe way with, you know, I mean, you could create a brothel. You could create a safe brothel for women. If women wanted a brothel, you could do that.

[Dan Natterman]

Right.

[Noam Dwarman]

Some smart Israeli would figure out how to invest in that in.

[Dan Natterman]

Or a strip. A strip club that's well monitored. Yeah, that's, you know, strip clubs.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Another.

[Noam Dwarman]

Right.

[Juanita Dwarman]

There are strip clubs for.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, but you don't have women getting hand jobs in the VIP room.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Exactly. Women are not like men.

[Noam Dwarman]

That's what I'm getting at. But that's what I'm trying to.

[Dan Natterman]

The argument often made is that evolutionarily, men can have. Can, you know, they don't get pregnant, so they don't have to be quite as cautious having sex because they're not going to get pregnant. So they can just.

[Noam Dwarman]

And the argument goes further that they want to spread their seed as much as they can because who.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Men.

[Noam Dwarman]

Evolution teaches that the person who. Who reproduces the most wins. So men, if the more they have sex, the more likely they are to pass on their DNA. Women running around.

[Juanita Dwarman]

They're running around saying that norm.

[Noam Dwarman]

Of course there's whole books written about this and. But. And women can only have one child at a time, so they better make.

[Dan Natterman]

Sure that it's the right one.

[Noam Dwarman]

Evolutionary psychologists, we've had them on the show from Harvard, believe that this manifests itself in behavior patterns. I'm not for a guess.

[Dan Natterman]

Women have to be cautious. The few children that they can have, relatively speaking, they got to choose wisely.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I think generally we turn to these kind of biological explanations when we kind of don't know what to do with the information that's in front of us. I don't believe that biology explains these things.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, we see biology explaining behavior patterns in other animals.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Okay. I think humans are like incredibly complex. Change over time a lot. And the way we behave around sexuality and what we regulate and what we don't regulate changes across cultures, changes across time. I really don't think biology is our. Was our place to go for.

[Dan Natterman]

I think you guys are gonna have to agree to disagree.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, this is a disconnect that I've had my whole life with psychoanalysts, and some of them are very good friends of mine. And actually my uncle who died was. It was Mel Brooks's Psychoanalyst.

[Dan Natterman]

Are you supposed to be, huh, divulging.

[Noam Dwarman]

That 50 years ago? That's great that I'm not able to think that way. My. My thought process is that humans are animals like every other animal.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I believe we are.

[Noam Dwarman]

Right. And to think that something that controls every other animal doesn't control humans is without somebody proving that to me or showing me data that can demonstrate that, I'm like, well, no. The presumption is obviously, to me that men and women are different, humans in humans, just like they are in every single other species on planet Earth. Why would we be different? We share 99% of our DNA.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I think we are different and mostly the same, as you're saying, and in some ways different, but the ways in which we like to imagine that difference is very much influenced by other concerns. Because if you think, for example, about sexual behavior, it really changes so dramatically between cultures and across time that you can't go. You can't boil it down to DNA.

[Noam Dwarman]

That's interesting. How does it change between cultures?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Just think about, like, I don't know, go to Scandinavia and then go to Saudi Arabia, where it's not the same species sexually.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, it's because men control the women in Saudi Arabia.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Just what people do with their bodies. It's not the same species, the way they think about sex, what they do with each other.

[Juanita Dwarman]

And it's all culture.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

It's not like.

[Dan Natterman]

It's like, is there a culture either today or in the past where women behave as we stereotypically see men behaving? That is to say that they have sex without emotional attachment, with multiple partners?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I think most men that I work with have sexual behaviors with very powerful sexual attachments. And actually, one of the things that I see over my lifetime working with couples is that in marriages, often men are the emotional rudder of the marriage, meaning they're way more loyal and they kind of keep the marriage together way better than women.

[Juanita Dwarman]

That's interesting.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah. I would have thought they're like shepherd dogs that circle around the marriage. Really serious.

[Noam Dwarman]

Go ahead, go ahead.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I'm serious. They, they ultimately, they provide, they take care. They, they. They circle around the marriage and they keep it together. And in certain ways, they're more reliable emotionally than women in. In that respect. So.

[Noam Dwarman]

Wow.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

You just dropped a truth bomb. Well, would you think that's true in our marriage?

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

You think that I hold it together?

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Dan Natterman]

How so?

[Juanita Dwarman]

He doesn't. First of. Noam's more emotional than I am.

[Noam Dwarman]

He more what?

[Juanita Dwarman]

Emotional than I am. You've always been.

[Noam Dwarman]

What do you mean, more emotional?

[Juanita Dwarman]

Like, you're. Like, when you're with the kids, you like you.

[Noam Dwarman]

Oh, like more affectionate with the kids. Yeah, yeah. She doesn't mean. She doesn't mean, like, high strung. She means, like.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah, yeah. In that kind of way. I'm the one that's emotionally immature. I'm the one that's having the outbursts, and I'm.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Women. Women are. There's a lot more.

[Juanita Dwarman]

But. Yeah. And he's the one that's always keeping it together, where I'm always like, what the hell? What am I doing here? Like, this is crazy. Yeah. So it's kind of like. But not that I want to leave or anything. It's just always. I think that. Look, also a lot of what you're saying is culture and a lot of. Is our backgrounds. We both come from homes where our parents are divorced. So I think for us, marriage really means something different than someone else going into a marriage. We went into this thinking we're never leaving each other.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah.

[Juanita Dwarman]

You know, that's. That's our mindset.

[Noam Dwarman]

But we both came from divorced families, and you can tell me if you want me talk about this, but we came from very different backgrounds. I came from a very, very stable, in a certain way, and very loving. My stable. My father raised me, and I had a stepmother.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

But I had a very, very stable, loving home. Right. And I did not. She had a lot of trauma. A lot of trauma. Yeah.

[Juanita Dwarman]

A lot of abuse with my parents.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Juanita Dwarman]

My parents. To each other. Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

So divorced, though.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

So still abuse before they divorced or after? Oh, before. Before.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah. During their marriage.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

So.

[Juanita Dwarman]

But that stays with you forever.

[Noam Dwarman]

So traumatizing craziness with her family and.

[Juanita Dwarman]

And a lot of abuse in my family, for sure.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Right.

[Noam Dwarman]

I mean, night and day.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

And you said you're Puerto Rican.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Half Puerto Rican. Half Puerto Rican and half Indian.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

And half Indian.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah. So where, like, you know, I grew up where all of the women. My mother's Puerto Rican and my father's Indian, but all of the women, the majority of women in my family are divorced.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah.

[Juanita Dwarman]

You know, they don't stay in relationships. We don't hang around for that kind of bullshit. We're out. You know, that was what it was like in our relationship before we got married. The minute that he said whatever, I was like, okay. And he had said, oh, my God, you're not gonna ask any questions. Do you remember that? You were like, anytime that he was like, I want out, I was like, see ya. You know, so again, that's. That's really what. Because that's how I was raised. That's what I saw the women do in my family, you know, and that's how we're built, you know, kind of different. He's always, like, coming back and keeping it together.

[Noam Dwarman]

I hold the film together.

[Juanita Dwarman]

He does.

[Dan Natterman]

But they're still very different sexually. Insofar as Noam, you know, would.

[Noam Dwarman]

Perhaps my wife got around too.

[Dan Natterman]

Open to. Open to, you know, ethical, non monogamy. And Juanita is.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'm open to non. Ethical, non monogamy.

[Juanita Dwarman]

First of all, he is not open to any of that. He's the most jealous person. I've gone through hell with this man. But if he ever found out that I cheated on him, we wouldn't be together today. That's the difference between. Between the two of us, you know.

[Noam Dwarman]

If I cheated, we would be together.

[Juanita Dwarman]

We are together.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

You did cheat.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Right before we got married.

[Noam Dwarman]

Since we're married, I'm talking about.

[Juanita Dwarman]

No, no, we would not be together. You know that.

[Noam Dwarman]

Okay.

[Dan Natterman]

Even for the. Even for the children.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Even for the children. It's.

[Noam Dwarman]

But maybe, you know, it may be the opposite, because the truth is, if she cheated, depending on the entirety of the circumstances, I might stay together for the children. I might say we have. We have to try to work.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah, but you wouldn't love me the same. Why would you want to be with me?

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't know if I'd love you the same. I might.

[Juanita Dwarman]

You wouldn't love me the same. There would always be that resentment that I went out and cheated on him.

[Noam Dwarman]

You know, I could resent a lot of things, just add us to the list. But. But I don't know.

[Juanita Dwarman]

No, I know you.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, it would. No, she's right. That it would eat me up inside.

[Juanita Dwarman]

He would not. Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

However, that's on one side of the ledger of my life.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Right.

[Noam Dwarman]

On the other, the idea of my own loss in not being with the kids and. And. And what it would do to the children.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Right.

[Noam Dwarman]

Just tremendous.

[Juanita Dwarman]

So you would just stay married to me?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Would you.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Would you want to sleep with me after I cheated on you?

[Noam Dwarman]

I. I don't know what I would. I. I don't know what was po. I don't know what's possible for me. No, this. I'm being serious. I don't know what would be possible for me emotionally to overcome. I can't. I can't say that. And. And what amount of time it would.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Take to get there. You'd need to know why. What happened?

[Noam Dwarman]

As I said, the entirety of the circumstance.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah. What was going on in between the two of you that led to that?

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Dan Natterman]

I mean, if it was a period of your marriage where, you know, you were drifting apart.

[Noam Dwarman]

I mean, if it was. If it was. If it was Jason Momoa and you had a few drinks. But I'm just. The only point is saying that I would very much try to keep my head about me and say, well, you know, yeah, it sounds great. Fuck this bitch. I'm out of here. But, you know, there's three other lives.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

But there's something profoundly affected by this.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I think I hated.

[Noam Dwarman]

If we hated each other, that would be bad for the kids, too. So there's no easy solution.

[Juanita Dwarman]

We hate each other sometimes. We love each other. There are days where we hate each other.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'm just saying, for the kids to grow up. I don't want the kids to grow up. At some point, you would know better than I do, but at some point, the balance tips. Where the unhappiness of the home is worse than the breakup of the home.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Right.

[Noam Dwarman]

That's. That's a difficult thing to call.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I think.

[Noam Dwarman]

What. I would try to figure that out.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Well, this is why I think about us works and why Noam is so lucky. Right.

[Dan Natterman]

Because.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

So you're both lucky.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah, we are. But I don't. I don't ever hold anything back. I don't hide.

[Noam Dwarman]

Oh, I'm so lucky.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah, you're so lucky. Because it's not like I walk around every day like, oh, my God. Like, if I feel something, I say it, it just comes out. I can't hold anything in. So he knows if there's a day where I'm upset that he didn't take out the trash or pick up his clothes or whatever it is. I don't ever hold it back. I'm not, like, holding on to it for days. I let it out and then it's gone.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah. But, you know, now that you're getting closer to menopause, I don't know if I can be able to make the same excuses for you that I've been making all this.

[Juanita Dwarman]

But I've always been that way.

[Noam Dwarman]

She's on it makes me feel better, but.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

But I've always last a very long time.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Right. So. But that's just how I've always been in our relationship from the get, you know? So for him, he. He always knows where he stands. It's not like, oh, I. I'm not sure. Yeah, that kind of thing.

[Noam Dwarman]

So.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

So wait, so you're saying that's why it works?

[Juanita Dwarman]

I think that's why it works for him. You know, there's no meaning.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

He doesn't have to. Yeah. In all sorts of scenarios.

[Juanita Dwarman]

That's right. He knows if I'm not happy, and I tell him I'm out, I'm out. You know, it's not like.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Why does it work for you?

[Juanita Dwarman]

Because I know him too. I know that he loves me, and.

[Noam Dwarman]

I know that he's, you know, after 25. Pillar on the roof.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

Do you love me? Do I what?

[Juanita Dwarman]

Listen, there's so many times that he's left and ran back to me. It's like, where are you going now? It's like, you know, we're not playing that game anymore.

[Noam Dwarman]

We're almost out of time. So you've written a lot about the vicissitudes of attachment and trauma and how they. How they shape people's lives. So I'll tell a quick story. I told a story once before. Now I. I am. I am going to acknowledge that there are things going on in our brains all the time that we are not privy to and. And we don't realize them. And the story. I don't know if you know this story. When I was with. I think it was with Ava and I. And I. Licorice. Remember the cat? Licorice. Licorice was never an affectionate cat. Was always running away, like, basically always.

[Juanita Dwarman]

This infection to me.

[Noam Dwarman]

To you, but not to me.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

What, These are pets?

[Dan Natterman]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

Anyway, to try to condense it, a cat, which I had never been very attached to. Never. I took. At the end of its life, I had to take it to the vet to be put to sleep. And I put it to sleep. And I said, do you want to. You want to stay with. I stayed with the cat. And then I came out and obviously. Well, how was it? And I didn't. Wasn't feeling anything particular. I said it was okay, and all of a sudden I burst out crying. Just burst out crying out of nowhere.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Wow.

[Noam Dwarman]

And I didn't see it coming. I did not realize that this was going on somewhere. And it just erupted. That's the word. It just erupted. So that was. Not that I didn't believe it at the time, but it was a clear. It was a clear proof positive to me that there was some other. You think about a computer when you control, alt, delete, and you see all the processes. There was. There's a process going on there, a number of processes going on there. All the time.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

Which you're not aware of. They're taking your bandwidth and, and they affect you.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

And I believe from, from the reading I've done of what you've written that you believe a lot of these processes are instantiated early in life and they remain there forever unless somehow you can. It's your job, I guess, to get in somehow, one way.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

There are many ways. Yeah, there are many ways people kind of reach. I mean, what you're talking about is the unconscious, right. And there are many ways that people can try to make contact with the unconscious. Not only through psychoanalysis. I mean, people do it through art. People actually do it a lot through comedy. Right. Like jokes and humor is a way to kind of, kind of loosen the boundary between the conscious and unconscious mind and get in touch with things. Dreaming is huge meditation. Now, psychedelics, I mean, there are all sorts of ways that people want to get in touch with their unconscious. And all throughout the centuries they have, I mean, Joseph in the Bible, I mean, they're a dream interpreter. People want contact with all this stuff that's going on in the back of their mind.

[Noam Dwarman]

And what kind of success? Maybe you can tell us your best success stories. What kind of success can a psychoanalyst have in actually relieving somebody of some sort of trauma, whatever it is, in such a way that actually changes their life? They stop, they end a pattern of behavior which is damaging to them and has been for many years, lots and lots and lots.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I mean, that's the work. I mean, and we have ongoing success. That's the purpose of the work.

[Noam Dwarman]

But how does it work? Does it come from just acknowledging it?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

No, it doesn't come from. I mean, analysis takes a long time. And the reason it takes a long time is first of all, it takes a long time to build a relationship. First of all, that engenders trust that people can like relax enough and relax their defenses against knowing enough that they would like allow certain things to come into the fore, to come into the material. And then they have to have an experience with the analyst that to some degree will correct whatever happened. So if someone, let's say, grew up in like a super abusive environment and their whole system is geared towards self protection and being paranoid and assuming that everyone out there is out there to hurt me. And that's how they're geared towards their.

[Noam Dwarman]

Relationship, you actually hit on something. Because we have this all the time where I'm much less, I'm much more encouraging of my daughter, walk to the store, whatever it is, we Live in a very safe town. And she carries all this baggage of the danger of the world, which is not rational, actually, based on statistics and, you know, where we live and whatever it is.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

And she knows in some ways it's not rational, but she can't get past it.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Right.

[Noam Dwarman]

She's not happy unless I'm like Mila.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah. I don't like the kids to go anywhere by themselves.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

You have this, like, orientation towards the world that bad things can happen. Yeah.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I grew up in a really bad neighborhood. Bad things do happen.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah. So let's say you carry that in your way of being in the world. And in analysis, let's say you're in a safe enough environment that you can allow your mind to start remembering those things, kind of understanding how they shaped you, and then be vulnerable enough with your analyst that you're gonna allow maybe some new kind of experiences to register, and they're gonna be intense enough because you're really attached to your analyst. So it's gonna be intense.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I mean, I've had new experiences. Right. That are not abusive or whatever, but you just don't let go of the old.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

But in analysis, you do. That's the idea, is that, first of all, the experience in analysis is intense and that you connect, like, words and thought and narrative to those feelings, and you start really morphing. It's like you're going into that, like, program, and you're changing the code.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Right.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

But it's a lot of work and a lot of trust and a repeat. You have to do it.

[Noam Dwarman]

And it's so deep because it's not just isolated to that one issue. That issue becomes an issue between me and you. This causes a fight that erupts, and then it brings on a whole nother issue. It cascades, you know, so. But you have your work cut out for you in your profession. Now, you want to ask about adoption before we go.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Wait, wait.

[Noam Dwarman]

No.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I have a question, too. So have you ever had a couple that you just saw and you were like, listen, this is just not gonna work out for you guys. You guys should not be together. You ever had that one?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

I don't see it like that, but I've had. I mean, it's rare. I'm kind of an optimist and a romantic, and I kind of of hope the best for people. But I've spent time with couples where I felt like they're too, in a way, addicted to the fight, and they didn't really. They couldn't really let go of it. And whatever I was doing was just not working.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Right.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

And then I say if you're hurting each other so much, maybe you should think of another way to live. Why cause so much pain? Like mutual pain? Yeah, yeah. But it's rare. Do you see that Most people don't want to fight.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Right? There is a thing about being addicted to the fight.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah, yeah. It's quick discharge.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, no, I. As far as the adoption, I just figured if we couldn't cover the time, it's really not. I mean, unless you'd rather talk about climate change. I don't want to talk about climate change.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I don't have an obsession with trans adoption.

[Dan Natterman]

I don't have an obsession with it. I just. I wonder about the wisdom of cross racial adoption. Well, I wouldn't say that about. Wonderful.

[Noam Dwarman]

Sound like Archie Bunker.

[Dan Natterman]

I wonder if it's the optimal. In other words, you have two couples that want to adopt a black child. You have a black couple and a white couple. Should consideration be given in your estimation, and I don't know if this is necessarily your field of expertise, but should consideration be given to the ethnic background of the parents when deciding which couple to give this child to?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

That's an intense question. I mean the wisdom nowadays in the adoption world, and it changes, is that you should get. If it's a black kid, they should go. If there's a choice, they should go to black parents to prevent, you know, whatever you want to call it, colonization or.

[Noam Dwarman]

That's terrible.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Well, cultural, culturally, they're. They're more suitable to a black family.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

No, I don't know what that means.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Hair and things like that.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Meaning they will look more like their parents.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I don't.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

That's what you mean. And they will. They might have less questions about identity.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Right.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

But that's just one way to think about things because you know, if the parents are going to be loving, they can help the kid through whatever shit they got to go to. I mean everyone goes through shit.

[Juanita Dwarman]

That's right.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

But the wisdom nowadays is try to match people to their cultural backgrounds.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, with regard to the colonization question, I mean, don't you think that perhaps, you know, this notion the white savior has to step in and save the black child.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah. That is not a good optic.

[Dan Natterman]

You know, would that affect the child's self esteem knowing. Well, you know, it had to be white people to come in and save.

[Noam Dwarman]

This is my layman view on. Bothers me very much that people overlay the political trendy, you know, the, the political zeitgeist of the day. Because these things change every 20 years, you know, onto these kids. Yes, of course. We have to be honest that if two, If a black family adopts a black child, there's fewer awkward moments where someone assumes it's the nanny or with these kind of things, you know, these things are real. On the. What does all that matter if you have a loving home with responsible, loving parents? These things are not going to upend the mental health, in my opinion of a child. Some kids are overweight, some kids are ugly, some kids are. Everybody has something. By that logic, we should never bring a fat kid into the world. Because think of what I mean. That's nothing compared to what a fat kid has to go through. But you know, fat kids lead happy lives too. Yes, of course they have the fatness issue. So they. And people have worse things than this.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

But in this, in this particular moment in culture, it's a very complicated issue. Hopefully in 20 years that's not going to be.

[Noam Dwarman]

It's complicated. But in some way I'm actually offended by it because this whole notice of colonization, this is your own hang up that you're overlaying on this family. Like they don't know about colonization. I'll tell you one other story, but it might be the way to end. Or not, but when I was in summer camp, this always stayed with me. I don't know if I ever told you a story either. I was like, demolishation thing. No, not. I was like a rabbi did try to molest me. That's a true story. But he didn't. I can tell you that story too, if you want. When I was like, I guess I had to be 14 years old and it was like rest hour in the bunk and you're supposed to be quiet and some kid had drawn a swastika over the bed and I was using that as an excuse to misbehave.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Over your bed?

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah. What? But not. I don't even know if it was there before. I didn't remember all the details, but I was using an excuse to misbehave. And the head counselor, his name was Carl Laver. And I don't know if anybody out there. New England Music Camp, he was the head counselor. Huh?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

What do you mean, misbehave?

[Noam Dwarman]

I wasn't being quiet. I was acting out. I don't. I just. I got in trouble.

[Dan Natterman]

This was music camp.

[Noam Dwarman]

You said the music camp. Carl Lauber was the head counselor. He was a great man. This was a. He's dead now. He's a. This was a great Man. And he. I got in trouble with him and I said, yeah, but he. There's a swastika under there. And you don't know as a Jew what is. I'm a Jewish. What he was. What. It's like. And he said, will you just cut that out? You gotta behave. This is a. This is a, you know, just shut. Basically. I don't remember his exact words. Like. Like, who are you trying to kid here?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Right?

[Noam Dwarman]

And you know, and he read. He saw right through me and he was right. And he didn't allow me to work myself into a lather, convince myself nothing. He's like, just stop. You know. And today no head counselor in his position would have dared. Would have dared to say canceled up the river. They would have enabled and actually allowed this child to develop. And to somewhere we had to talk about Bruce Springsteen too. Feeling sorry for those. It's somewhere there's a healthy. It's mentally healthy for someone you respect to say, you know what? Just stop feeling sorry. Shut up with this.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

You know, I don't know as a professional, you have to be careful when you do that. But that is healthy to me.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

It goes back to where we started with these two different mindsets. Like, there's a mindset in which you can. Like if you're other than me. Deplorable.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

And identity politics is all around that. Or there's a mindset of like, let me try to understand what's going on over there. Wait, why did you put a swastika?

[Noam Dwarman]

Like, because kids do stupid things. There was no deep anti Semitic reason to it.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Or maybe there was, but I don't know. But who knows?

[Noam Dwarman]

It really didn't bother me that much. I was really just looking for an excuse to get out of. But you can't ever look through what everybody knows saw. It's like, come on. You know, and it's intoxicating.

[Dan Natterman]

But do you know who the kid.

[Noam Dwarman]

You can do that. And I didn't even really know it in those days, but now kids know it that you say this, say that the world stops. Oh, yes. You know that Twilight Zone with Bill Mummy. It's good that you did that with that kid who could erase everybody. Like everybody's solicitous to anybody who says a certain. Says anything.

[Dan Natterman]

How about their lived experience?

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, yeah. But.

[Dan Natterman]

But did you know who the kid was that did it, by the way?

[Noam Dwarman]

I mean, all I remember from the incident, and I was. And I was always very emotionally aware. Tell another story. But was that he saw right through Me and it was, it was profoundly shaping incident for me. I always remembered it and I, it always stayed with me as, as kind of like, you know, don't do that. You know, don't, don't bullshit. Like. So when I was young, when I, my parents divorced, I guess I, they, they must have, I must have been behaving in some way or maybe they were worried. They took me to a therapist and the therapist the first day says, well, draw a picture. I was five, she says, draw a picture. And at five years old and this I remember saying, I'm not drawing a picture. I know what you make. I know whatever I draw, it doesn't matter, just draw whatever you want. They're so stupid. At least they were in those days. They thought I didn't know at 5 years old that of course whatever I was going to draw, they were going to use to draw. And I went like four times. I would, I just never drew a picture. And finally my father who was very anti. Therapist. Ah, enough of this.

[Dan Natterman]

You know, I do think most children probably wouldn't know. I mean it sounds to me, I.

[Noam Dwarman]

Don'T, I think a lot of kids.

[Dan Natterman]

I mean, I don't, I can't think back to what would I, you know me as a five year old. But it does sound, I think a lot of kids wouldn't.

[Noam Dwarman]

My son Manny would have known in a heartbeat.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

But no, actually know what? You know, your therapist wants to know what's on your mind.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, that would be okay. Yeah, they would know that the therapist was lying to me by presenting it as an innocuous. Just draw a picture, have some fun.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Oh, I see.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Not saying I want to know what's on your mind.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yes, yes. I knew that they were going to judge me, but I didn't know what judgment could come from any particular picture. You know, just drawing a picture of, you know, mommy stabbing daddy. They're going to jump to conclusions, but I just kind of like those. I was a macabre kid. No, I'm kidding.

[Juanita Dwarman]

5. How do you know that though? That's so weird.

[Dan Natterman]

It does sound like something that would be beyond the grasp of the average five year old. Yeah, somebody told me go draw a picture. I would think that thing seems to be pretty sophisticated for a 5 year old.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I think so too.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Maybe if you're, if I'm just like riffing here, like just, just because there's a mic.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, it's okay.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

But if you're like growing up, if you're at an age like that where there's like conflict at home. And you're trying to figure out what's going on with your parents. You learn to read cues very fast.

[Noam Dwarman]

Maybe it's not.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

It's not regular going on living. It's like, oh, my God, what is going on? And then you read the grammar, and.

[Noam Dwarman]

There was terrible conflict between my father. Terrible.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Learned how to read everything.

[Noam Dwarman]

But they handled.

[Dan Natterman]

She was an Israeli woman, much like Oren, so I don't know if this is traumatic for you both.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Israeli.

[Dan Natterman]

Yeah, but your mother's more Israeli because she has an accent. Your father never did whatever.

[Noam Dwarman]

They both know my mother hates Israel. My father was bled. Bled blue and white, so. But in any case, they. They. There was terrible fighting between them. Terrible screaming. I remember it, but I never. They somehow they always managed to communicate to me that I was not part of this, that I wasn't responsible for. I don't feel like I was traumatized by it. I never did feel like I was traumatized by it. Maybe I just don't realize.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

It's not necessarily traumatic.

[Dan Natterman]

By the way, Noam, just full disclosure, has expressed some skepticism about psychotherapy in general. Has Dr. Guronik changed your mind at all?

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, no, you haven't changed your mind. You've actually verified something for me because you might bristle at this. As you recall, my opinion about psychotherapy has always been that an insightful person can be very helpful to people with their problems. My skepticism is not about the fact that an insightful person can be very helpful. My skepticism has been about the science of it all, that you go to professional, that you could somehow put it on a blackboard and blah, blah, blah. I feel like probably whatever you have is much more just about your insight and your sensitivity to people than it probably is about what you've learned at nyu. And that's just been my gut feeling about.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

It's a combination.

[Noam Dwarman]

A combination, but probably more because I think a lot of the science about therapy, you know, it holds up if the right insightful person is the person doing it, you know.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

But what. What do you even mean by the science? You mean, like, manualized treatments that, like, follow a certain kind of trajectory? I mean, that's. That's not psychoanalysis.

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't. I don't own. I don't know enough about it. Then I could read up. But I just. I just. I've had. We've had conversations with other therapists, not with you. I. And you know what I would say, so that hasn't. I've not had that feel with you or just roll my eyes. Because they have an answer for everything and it's always some sort of.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah, but that's not psychoanalytic. Psychoanalysts don't have an answer for anything. They listen and.

[Noam Dwarman]

But they can, they can. They always manage to attribute it. Oh, that's because you're this or that. They always have it. They always have a theory for it all anyway. But, but I, I, I think money to agree what comes through with you is a certain high level of understanding of humans.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Thank you.

[Noam Dwarman]

And that I agree. I don't know that that can be taught.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I agree with that.

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't know that that can be taught. I don't know if you can learn that in school.

[Juanita Dwarman]

I think we. I've been through so many therapists with my son and then with Noam and a bunch of disasters. There's only been two maybe out of the bunch, including yourself, that I feel like, you know, you have some kind of connection of understanding what humans.

[Dan Natterman]

Well, in line with what Noam was saying, do you think that they're just like, there are some people that are talented and some people that are talented athletes. Is there such a thing as a talented therapist? Somebody that was sort of born to do it? That's just, Is there an element that can't be taught? As Noam was saying, I think there.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Are different kinds of therapists that do different things. So I'm, for example, I'm not good at helping people with their phobias or if they have a particular OCD ritual that they want to get rid of. I'm not the right person for them.

[Dan Natterman]

Because of your training or because of something forensic.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Gravitated towards a training that is like, you know, depth psychology. I like to, like, sit with people and like, whoa, go deep and like, really, like, hold the world with them. Like, that's my orientation. I mean, talk to me about spiders. I'm like, I don't know what to do.

[Noam Dwarman]

Is CBT better for that kind of thing?

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yeah, it is.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah. And I'm not good with that. That's not what I, what I'm interested in. I didn't study it, and I wouldn't be good at it.

[Juanita Dwarman]

So if there was someone going to see a psychologist for adhd, what kind of psychologist would they go?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

They should see someone who focuses a lot on cause and effect behaviors. I mean, ultimately, some analytic work could be interesting too. But adhd, I mean, there's a lot about, like, cause and response and how to create kind of conditions that help the person like, get to their best self. It's very behavioral.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

We have to wrap it up because, you know, they have to play this on the radio and everything. But if you had a good experience, maybe in the future, when there's some issue in the news or something that I love this.

[Dan Natterman]

Is this dog full grown? Is this like some kind of mini husky?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Mini husky.

[Dan Natterman]

The mini husky.

[Juanita Dwarman]

Beautiful dog.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Right.

[Noam Dwarman]

And I don't know if you like comedy. Yeah.

[Dan Natterman]

Who's your favorite.

[Noam Dwarman]

Who's your favorite comic, besides Dan Natterman?

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Well, right now there is a favorite comic that I just. Danny. Exactly. I don't know if you'd call him a comic, but I'm interested in his work because of our team. But Gerard Carmichael, he performed here.

[Dan Natterman]

Yeah, I haven't seen him in a while, actually.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, he was here a few months ago, but I think he's mostly in LA right now.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

He's in between, but our team is following him with a documentary.

[Dan Natterman]

Oh, a documentary.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

So I. I just think he's great.

[Noam Dwarman]

He's fantastic.

[Dan Natterman]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

And he has an interesting story because he came out as gay.

[Dan Natterman]

Was he gay or bi? Did. He came out as.

[Noam Dwarman]

He came out as gay.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Gay.

[Dan Natterman]

Okay.

[Noam Dwarman]

And we know. We. He. He definitely. That wasn't known. At least it wasn't known by me.

[Dan Natterman]

Nor are you skeptical about bi men.

[Noam Dwarman]

All right, we have to go. But, yeah, we'd love to have. We'd love to have it. The comedy seller.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Yeah, love to. That would be amazing.

[Noam Dwarman]

Terrific. And maybe you can help my wife with a few things.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Okay, thank you.

[Noam Dwarman]

Thank you very much, everybody. Good night.

[Dr. Orna Goralnick]

Fun conversation.