Podcast
The Deal with Animals with Marika S. Bell
Hosted by Marika S. Bell · EN
Humans interact with animals every day of our lives: diet, wildlife, clothes and even medicines, are all intersections we often don’t think about.
This is a podcast about the interactions and connections between humans and non-human animals.
Our mission is to make research more accessible to the public while sharing the voices and lived experience of our human connection with animals.
27episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
143. The Captivity of Fishes with Dr. Culum Brown
3d ago00:40:08Tap to summarizeEpisode 4 of Series 16: The Captivity Conversation TranscriptDr. Culum Brown's insights challenge our assumptions about agency underwater and ask us to reconsider what captivity means for animals whose intelligence we’ve long underestimated.Guest Bios: Dr. Culum Brown is a behavioural ecologist and Professor at Macquarie University, known for his pioneering research on fish cognition, learning, and welfare. He has published extensively on how fishes navigate their environments, form memories, solve problems, and experience stress, and his work has helped reshape scientific and public understanding of intelligence underwater. Culum is the long‑time Editor of the Journal of Fish Biology and a leading voice in global discussions about fish sentience and the ethical implications of keeping fishes in captivity.Book Recommendations: On the Origin of Species: Or; The Preservation of the Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life by Charles DarwinRelated Links:121. Is the Joy of Sex Common Across Species? with Dr. Jonathan Balcombe (S13)48: Underwater Bioacoustics with Dr. Michelle Fournet (S6)123. Are We Turning Marine Mammals into Breeding Machines? with Dr. Lori Marino (S13)The Fish LabTDWA BlogGuest Book Recommendations List
Transcribe →142. Creating a Multispecies Community with Animal Welfare Scientist, Lauri Torgerson-White
2w ago00:39:16Tap to summarizeEpisode 3 of Series 16: The Captivity Conversation - Transcript In this episode, animal welfare scientist Lauri Torgerson‑White unpacks how sanctuaries can become true multispecies communities, exploring what agency, choice, and ethical care look like when we design environments with animals rather than for them.Guest Bios: Lauri Torgerson‑White is an agency‑focused animal welfare scientist working with New York University’s All Animals Initiative and serving as Director of Sanctuary Animal Well‑Being at Operation Angels. Her career spans the Detroit Zoo’s Center for Zoo Animal Welfare, Mercy For Animals, and Farm Sanctuary, where she helped establish sanctuary‑based research programs. Her scholarship explores animal cognition, behaviour, welfare, and ethical research design across farmed and zoological settings. Guided by data and driven by compassion, Lauri’s work asks how humans can re‑enter multispecies communities with humility, curiosity, and a commitment to shared flourishing.Book Recommendations: The Arrogant Ape: And A New Way To See Humanityby Christine Webb and Birds as Individuals by Len HowardRelated Links:TDWA BlogGuest Book Recommendations List Ep 111. What the Chicken Knows...with Author Sy MontgomeryEp 92. Speciesism and The Chicken Encounter That Changed Everything with Pattrice Jones of VINE Animal SanctuaryMentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Minis-series coming Summer 2026
Transcribe →141. Where Primates Go to Heal with Primatologist Andy Gray
May 400:41:43Tap to summarizeEpisode Two of Series 16: The Captivity Question- Transcript (linked)Primatologist, Andy Gray explains how primate sanctuaries exist to provide lifelong, species‑appropriate care—especially social companionship—for primates who often arrive with trauma, abnormal behaviors, or complex medical needs. She describes the growing demand for sanctuary placement driven by illegal pet trade, confiscations, and increased awareness, alongside the emotional and logistical challenges sanctuaries and staff face. She also highlights the importance of collaboration between sanctuaries and zoos, the rise of operant conditioning for stress‑free veterinary care, and the urgent need for legislation like the Captive Primate Safety Act.Guest Bio: Amanda “Andy” Gray is the Director of NAPSA and has worked with primates since 2008, beginning as a volunteer at Chimpanzee Sanctuary Northwest and the Chimpanzee and Human Communication Institute while studying Primate Behavior, Ecology, and Anthropology at Central Washington University. She earned her Master’s in Primate Conservation at Oxford Brookes University, conducting research on slow lorises affected by the illegal pet trade, and later worked as a caregiver and fundraiser at several NAPSA member sanctuaries, including Save the Chimps. Most recently, she served as Program Manager for Second Chance Chimpanzee Refuge Liberia, overseeing operations, strategy, and development; she now lives in Southern California with her family and two rescue dogs.Book Recommendations: Holidays on Ice by David SedarisRelated Links:WILDLIFE CONFISCATION NETWORKCaptive Primate Safety Act- 2008Great Ape Heart ProjectEp 133. Speaking Across SpeciesEp 124 What Can A Matriarchal Society Teach UsEp 93. Human Relevant TestingMentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Minis-series coming Summer 2026
Transcribe →140. Choice and Control with Applied Behavior Scientist, Dr. Susan Friedman
Apr 2000:52:42Tap to summarizeEpisode One of Series 16 : The Captivity Question - Transcript (linked)Dr. Susan Friedman joins me to explore captivity through the lens of behaviour science — from choice and control to “freeing the operant,” honouring the no, and shaping the yes. We discuss how environments shape agency for animals in zoos, sanctuaries, and homes, and what true welfare requires.Women Podcaster Awards- VoteGuest Bio: Dr. Susan G. Friedman is a professor emeritus of psychology at Utah State University and the founder of Behavior Works Consulting. She has co‑authored chapters in five veterinary texts, and her widely read articles have been translated into 17 languages. Susan’s online course, How Behavior Works, has reached students in 64 countries, and she consults internationally with zoos and animal‑care organizations, including teaching for BIAZA’s Animal Trainer Accreditation program. She served on the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service’s California Condor Recovery Team and currently chairs the Scientific Advisory Committee for American Humane’s Film and TV Unit. Her newest initiative, Behavior Works Zoo School, launches in 2026.Susan's Book Recommendations: The Science of Consequences: How They Affect Genes, Change the Brain, and Impact Our World by Susan SchneiderRelated Links: bwzs.orgbehaviourworks.orgTDWA BlogGuest Book Recommendations List - USAUK Guest Book Rec List Behaviour Science Glossary- Operant BehaviourBehaviour animals learn because it works — it produces outcomes they want or helps them avoid outcomes they don’t. It’s shaped by consequences, not instinct.Freeing the OperantDesigning environments where animals can choose how to behave to get outcomes. Instead of training step‑by‑step, you provide meaningful reasons to behave and let the animal’s natural problem‑solving emerge.ReinforcersAnything an animal values enough to work for: food, social contact, exploration, novelty, comfort, problem‑solving. Reinforcers are the “reasons” animals behave.For‑Shortened ReinforcersA concept from Susan Schneider: boredom isn’t caused by small spaces but by limited access to meaningful reinforcers. Captivity reduces the variety of things animals can work for.Engaging EnvironmentsSusan’s preferred term over “enrichment.” Instead of adding extras, it means creating a lifestyle environment that naturally invites exploration, agency, and species‑typical behaviour.ContingencyThe relationship between behaviour and outcome: If I do X, Y happens. Animals constantly test these relationships to understand what they can control.Differential ReinforcementReinforcing one behaviour while not reinforcing another, so the animal learns which behaviour “works.” It teaches what to do, not just what not to do.Extinction (Behaviour Science)When a behaviour stops because it no longer produces the expected outcome. Not punishment — just a missing payoff. Susan discusses new methods that avoid extinction because it can be frustrating for animals.Poisoned Cue / Poisoned LabelA cue or word that has been paired with something unpleasant so often that it becomes aversive. For example, a dog who hears “come!” and expects scolding.Honouring the NoRecognising and respecting when an animal communicates discomfort or refusal — shifting weight, turning away, freezing, widening eyes. It’s the ethical foundation of cooperative care.Shaping the YesAdjusting our behaviour, tools, timing, or reinforcers so the animal can eventually say yes willingly. It’s about building consent, not forcing compliance.Dialogue (Human–Animal)A two‑way interaction where both individuals influence each other’s behaviour. Not negotiation — a responsive conversation built from cues and feedback.Study of OneTreating each animal as an individual learner rather than a representative of their species. Behaviour science is always personal.AgencyAn animal’s ability to make choices that matter — choices that influence their own outcomes. Agency is central to Susan’s welfare philosophy.Mentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Miniseries begins Summer 2026
Transcribe →139. Spring Special! With Dr. Patricia McConnell on on Solving Murders and Herding Dogs
Apr 600:40:40Tap to summarizeThe is the Spring Special Episode! Transcript McConnell describes learning the craft of fiction, developing protagonist Maddie McGowan, for her recently released murder mystery, 'Away To Me'. The conversation also explores what herding teaches about partnership and training without leashes, how breed and context affect behavior, and what she hopes the next generation of trainers advances.Women Podcast Awards- VoteGuest Bio: Patricia McConnell, PhD, CAAB is an internationally renowned animal behaviorist and author whose acclaimed books, including The Other End of the Leash, For the Love of a Dog, and The Education of Will, have sold more than 1.2 million copies. She saw clients whose dogs had serious behavioral problems for twenty-five years, and spoke around the world about canine training and behavior. A former adjunct professor in Zoology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, her nationally syndicated radio show, Calling All Pets, played in more than 110 cities for 14 years and her television show, Petline, aired on Animal Planet for two and a half years. Her debut novel, Away to Me, is her first venture into fiction, and has received rave reviews. She lives with her husband, Jim Billings, her Border Collies Skip and Maggie, and a spoiled flock of sheep on a farm in Southern Wisconsin, and can be found online at PatriciaMcConnell.com.Book Recommendations: The Salt Stones: Seasons of a Shepherd's Life by Helen WhybrowRelated Links: Book Recommendations: The Salt Stones: Seasons of a Shepherd's Life by Helen WhybrowRelated Links: Spring Special 2025Spring Special 2022Ep. 82 Expanding Understanding of Canine Behaviour with Suzanne ClothierTDWA BlogGuest Book Recommendations List TDWA BlogGuest Book Recommendations List Mentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Miniseries begins Summer 2026
Transcribe →The Captivity Question: Series 16 Trailer and Series 15 Wrap Up
Mar 2300:08:09Tap to summarizeWrapping up Series 15: I’m filled with gratitude for the incredible insights shared by researchers on animal communication. From primates to birds, it's evident that the way we connect with animals echoes far beyond what we initially perceive. This series to be continued...(TBD)Introducing Series 16: We navigate the complex dynamics of captivity, I aim to challenge our preconceptions and invite diverse perspectives. Whether you're curious about our roles as caretakers or questioning the moral implications of captivity.Patreon and a call to Sponsor at... www.thedealwithanimals.com31d7784affd88366d6f8bd8a9f2f8d37e35c0ee9Mentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Miniseries begins Summer 2026
Transcribe →138. Crows, Cuckoos, and the Evolution of Avian Communication with researchers Kaeli Swift and Will Feeney
Mar 900:55:23Tap to summarizeEpisode 6 of Series 15: Animal Communications - Transcript (linked)I’m joined by Dr. Kaeli Swift and Dr. William Feeney to explore how birds learn from one another—sometimes within a species, sometimes across species lines. From crows passing along reputations to magpies inheriting the neighbourhood’s opinion of a cuckoo in seconds, we dive into the fast, social, and surprisingly nuanced ways information moves through bird communities, and what these systems reveal about communication, cooperation, and survival.Guest Bios: William Feeney currently works as a Research Fellow at Griffith University in Australia and at the Max Planck Institute for Ornithology in Germany. His PhD focused on understanding the ecology and evolution of cuckoo-host arms races in Australia, and since finishing his PhD he has continued working on this as well as predator-prey relationships in coral reef fishes. His current work is split between working on fishes and birds, and in particular at two long-term projects in Australia.Dr. Kaeli Swift is a research scientist with the University of Washington. For the past 5 years she has lived and worked on the remote island of Tinian, where she studies the ecology of the endemic Tinian monarch. She received her PhD from the University of Washington where she studied crow funerals.Book Recommendations: Will's Recommendation- Letters to a young Scientist by EO Wilson, Kaeli's Recommendation- Any local birding book you can find! Here is one for England and EuropeRelated Links: Episode 2 of Series 13, Sex and AnimalsEpisode 1 of Series 13, Sex and Animals Mentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Miniseries begins Summer 2026
Transcribe →Consciousness in Animals: Intentionality Dialogues - Descript
Feb 2300:03:51Tap to summarizeThis is a quick explanation of a phenomenon seen in animals who are considered 'conscious' beings. Essentially the difference between automatic or reflexive responses to their environment and reactions that are thought out.This was my final project for the IAABC Foundation class "The Thinking Animal" with Instructor, Dr. Kristina SpauldingRegularly scheduled programming on March 2nd.This was my final project for the IAABC Foundation class "The Thinking Animal" with Instructor, Dr. Kristina SpauldingMentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Miniseries begins Summer 2026
Transcribe →137. Under Rocks and Soil: Cutting-Edge Discoveries in Reptile Communication with Dr. Emily Taylor and Dr. Julia Riley(S15)
Feb 901:06:59Tap to summarizeSend us a textEpisode 4 of Series 15: Animal Communications - TranscriptThe discussion dives into the often misunderstood social behaviors and communication methods of reptiles, from chemical and tactile cues to visual displays. The episode also explores ethical considerations in reptile pet ownership, conservation challenges, and groundbreaking research on reptile emotions and personalities. Guest Bios: Dr. Julia Riley is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Biology at Mount Allison University (MtA) and a Canada Research Chair in Integrative Wildlife Ecology. She leads the Integrative Ecology Lab that aims to increase our knowledge of amphibian and reptile behaviour, evolution, and ecology, as well as aid in the conservation of these imperiled taxa. She was a postdoctoral fellow at University of New South Wales in Australia, Stellenbosch University in South Africa, and at Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia, Canada. Her research has broadly fit into the fields of behavioural ecology, evolutionary biology, and herpetology. Dr. Emily Taylor is a professor of biological sciences at California Polytechnic State University in San Luis Obispo, where she conducts research on the physiology, ecology, and conservation biology of reptiles and amphibians with her students. She is the author of the California Herping Guides. Learn more at EmilyTaylorScience.com and follow her on social media @snakeymama.Book Recommendations: An Immense World by Ed Yong, The Overstory by Richard Powers, Snakes and Snake Hunting by Carl KauffeldRelated Links: From Strange by Nature Podcast, Please Fish Don't Eat Me109. How Do Aboriginal and Bengali Stories Shape Cultural Understanding of Nature? with Dipanwita Pal, PhD. (S12)31: Attitudes Towards Animals with Matti Wilks (S5)www.jonathanbalcombe.comWhat a Fish Knows (NYTimes bestseller)Super Fly (National Outdoor Book Award winner)Jake and Ava: A Boy and a Fish (illustrated children's book)Support the showShow Credits Read the Blog! (Guest profiles, book recommendations, trailers and more!) What to start your own podcast in he Animal Advocacy or Animal Welfare Space? Check out my Podcast Mentoring Services! Become a Patron! Sign up for the NewsletterMentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Miniseries begins Summer 2026
Transcribe →136. New Year Special! The Future of Scientific Ethics: Trust and Transparency in Animal Research with Dr. Nuno Henrique Franco
Jan 2600:56:00Tap to summarizeSend us a textWinter Special with Dr. Nunro Henrique Franco! The conversation covers ethical frameworks, the importance of transparency through pre-registration and non-technical summaries, and the impact of public trust on scientific practice. They also explore the philosophical perspectives that shape animal research ethics and emphasize the role of scientists in advancing animal welfare.Guest Bio: Nuno Henrique Franco has degrees in Natural Sciences and Teaching (BSc + MSc), Animal Biology (BSc Hons), Basic Studies in Veterinary Sciences (BSc) and a PhD in Biomedical Sciences. Nuno is a researcher at the i3S (University of Porto) on the topics of laboratory animal welfare, animal ethics and the 3Rs, scientific quality, thermoregulation, veterinary education, and other topics. He is vice-president of the Portuguese Society for Laboratory Animal Science (SPCAL), Past-President of the E.U. Education & Training Platform for Laboratory Animal Science (ETPLAS), and President of the Animal Research Tomorrow society. He sits on the Animal Welfare Body of the i3S and of the U.Porto faculty of medicine, and founded and coordinates the Portuguese Network of Animal Welfare Bodies – RedeORBEA.For Nuno's Book recommendation see Episode 134Related Links: E21: Spring Special! Hal Herzog: On the the Past, Present, and Future of Anthrozoology119. April Special! What Does the Future Hold for Human-Animal Studies? with Dr. Ken Shapiro84: How To Build a Bond With a New Dog with Stacey Colino and Jen Golbeck (December Special!)www.jonathanbalcombe.comWhat a Fish Knows (NYTimes bestseller)Super Fly (National Outdoor Book Award winner)Jake and Ava: A Boy and a Fish (illustrated children's book)Support the showShow Credits Read the Blog! (Guest profiles, book recommendations, trailers and more!) What to start your own podcast in he Animal Advocacy or Animal Welfare Space? Check out my Podcast Mentoring Services! Become a Patron! Sign up for the NewsletterMentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Miniseries begins Summer 2026
Transcribe →