Podcast
The Deal with Animals with Marika S. Bell
Hosted by Marika S. Bell · EN
Humans interact with animals every day of our lives: diet, wildlife, clothes and even medicines, are all intersections we often don’t think about.
This is a podcast about the interactions and connections between humans and non-human animals.
Our mission is to make research more accessible to the public while sharing the voices and lived experience of our human connection with animals.
33episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
149. The Science/Advocacy Tension: PHAIR Animal Advocacy Conference 4/5
1w ago00:21:20Tap to summarizeEpisode 4 examines the tension and opportunity where animal-advocacy goals and research on the psychology of eating animals overlap, drawing on conversations from the PHAIR conference. Researchers and advocates discuss credibility, bias, conflicts of interest, and “epistemic pollution” in a climate of distrust, including how carnism can be treated as invisible ideology and how advocacy incentives may shape interpretation of findings. The episode also highlights a mismatch in urgency—advocates want rapid change while science moves slowly—and the need to make research accessible, relevant, and collaborative so it can be used off the page.This episode features:Joshua Rottman — Associate professor of psychology. Studies moral reasoning, human–animal relations, and how people reconcile beliefs about harm with everyday behaviour.Tobias Leenaert — Author and strategist focused on pragmatic, evidence‑based advocacy. Known for promoting incremental change, cultural sensitivity, and long‑term movement strategy.Brooke Haggerty — Executive Director of Faunalytics. Works at the intersection of research and advocacy, helping organisations use data to design more effective interventions and understand public attitudes toward animals.Jared Piazza — Senior lecturer in social psychology. Researches moral judgement, meat consumption, and the psychological mechanisms people use to justify animal use.Ondine Sherman — Author and co‑founder of Voiceless. Works on compassionate education, narrative change, and the emotional dimensions of advocacy.Sue O’Neill — Crisis‑support practitioner and applied researcher. Brings frontline insight into how people make decisions under pressure and how advocacy organisations can better support them.Matthew Ruby — Senior Lecturer in Psychology. Research explores moral cognition, food choices, and the psychology of eating animals, examining how cultural norms and identity shape dietary behaviour and openness to change.Chris Hopwood — Professor of psychology specialising in personality and interpersonal behaviour. Examines how people navigate moral conflict, identity, and the tensions between caring about animals and everyday habits.Related Links:PHAIR Society A biannual gathering of researchers and advocates focused on human–animal intergroup relations, moral psychology, and behaviour change.For more info check out the blog at www.thedealwithanimals.comGuest Book Recommendations List
Transcribe →148. What Actually Changes Behaviour: PHAIR Animal Advocacy Conference 3/5
2w ago00:36:36Tap to summarizeEpisode 3 shifts from frustration to forward motion. This episode looks at the strategies that genuinely help people change — not the ones we wish worked, but the ones supported by evidence. Researchers and advocates unpack how small, well‑designed interventions can reshape habits, reduce defensiveness, and make compassionate choices easier. The episode traces what works, why it works, and how advocates can use these insights to create change that lasts.This episode features:Brooke Haggerty — Executive Director of Faunalytics. Works at the intersection of research and advocacy, helping organisations use data to design more effective interventions and understand public attitudes toward animals.Matthew Ruby — Senior Lecturer in Psychology. Research explores moral cognition, food choices, and the psychology of eating animals, examining how cultural norms and identity shape dietary behaviour and openness to change.Tobias Leenaert — Author and strategist focused on pragmatic, evidence‑based advocacy. Known for promoting incremental change, cultural sensitivity, and long‑term movement strategy.Antonia Gifford — Social psychologist and incoming doctoral researcher. Studies communication, moral development, and how children form attitudes toward other living beings.Chris Hopwood — Professor of psychology specialising in personality and interpersonal behaviour. Examines how people navigate moral conflict, identity, and the tensions between caring about animals and everyday habits.Sue O’Neill — Crisis‑support practitioner and applied researcher. Brings frontline insight into how people make decisions under pressure and how advocacy organisations can better support them.Jared Piazza — Senior lecturer in social psychology. Researches moral judgement, meat consumption, and the psychological mechanisms people use to justify animal use.Joshua Rottman — Associate professor of psychology. Studies moral reasoning, human–animal relations, and how people reconcile beliefs about harm with everyday behaviour.Ondine Sherman — Author and co‑founder of Voiceless. Works on compassionate education, narrative change, and the emotional dimensions of advocacy.Katja Liebal — Biologist and comparative psychologist. Studies communication and facial expressions in non‑human primates, and how children develop attitudes toward unfamiliar animals, including through the “fantasy animals” project.Related Links:PHAIR Society A biannual gathering of researchers and advocates focused on human–animal intergroup relations, moral psychology, and behaviour change.For more info check out the blog at www.thedealwithanimals.comGuest Book Recommendations List
Transcribe →147. Why Adults Get Stuck: PHAIR Animal Advocacy Conference 2/5
4w ago00:29:23Tap to summarizeAdults don’t simply lose empathy for animals — they learn out of it. This second episode of the PHAIR Mini-series: traces how early openness narrows into adult resistance. Researchers describe the developmental arc: children begin with flexible, generous moral concern, but adolescence introduces pressures that harden attitudes and make adult behavior difficult to shift. Advocates and psychologists unpack why adults cling to entrenched patterns even when they they care about animals.This episode Features guests:Tobias Leenaert — Author, strategist, and co‑founder of the Center for Effective Vegan Advocacy. Known for pragmatic, evidence‑based approaches to behaviour change and movement strategy, with a focus on incrementalism and broad‑tent advocacy.Antonia Gefahrt — Social psychologist and incoming doctoral researcher at the University of Burg.Chris Hopwood — Professor of Psychology at the University of Zurich. Specialises in personality, identity, and interpersonal dynamics, with recent work examining how moral identity and self‑concept influence human–animal relationshipsJoshua Rottman — Associate Professor of Psychology at Franklin & Marshall College. Studies moral reasoning, cognitive development, and how people justify eating animals.Brooke Haggerty — Executive Director of Faunalytics. Works at the intersection of research and advocacy, helping organizations use data to design more effective interventions and understand public attitudes toward animals.Jared Piazza — Senior Lecturer in Social Psychology at Lancaster University. Research focuses on meat consumption, moral conflict, and the belief–behavior gap.Matthew Ruby — Senior Lecturer in Psychology. Research explores moral cognition, food choices, and the psychology of eating animals, examining how cultural norms and identity shape dietary behaviour and openness to change.Ondine Sherman — Author, advocate, and co‑founder of Voiceless. Focuses on youth engagement and ethical storytelling.Katja Liebal — Researcher studying childhood perception, fantasy animals, and early moral development.Related Links:PHAIR Society A biannual gathering of researchers and advocates focused on human–animal intergroup relations, moral psychology, and behaviour change.For more info check out the blog at www.thedealwithanimals.comGuest Book Recommendations List
Transcribe →146. How We Learn to See Animals: PHAIR Animal Advocacy Conference ep. 1/5
Jul 600:27:11Tap to summarizeFirst episode in a five‑episode series recorded at the Psychology of Human–Animal Intergroup Relations (PHAIR) Conference, exploring how beliefs, identity, childhood perception, and social norms shape human–animal relationships. Across conversations with ten speakers — researchers, advocates, and strategists — the series traces the tensions, hopes, and emerging ideas shaping the future of human–animal relations.This episode features:Katja Liebal — Researcher studying childhood perception, fantasy animals, and early moral development.Jared Piazza — Senior Lecturer in Social Psychology at Lancaster University. Research focuses on meat consumption, moral conflict, and the belief–behavior gap.Antonia Gefahrt — Social psychologist and incoming doctoral researcher at the University of Burg.Ondine Sherman — Author, advocate, and co‑founder of Voiceless. Focuses on youth engagement and ethical storytelling.Sue O’Neill — Brings frontline insight into how people make decisions under pressure and how advocacy organizations can better support them.Joshua Rottman — Associate Professor of Psychology at Franklin & Marshall College. Studies moral reasoning, cognitive development, and how people justify eating animals.Related Links:PHAIR Society A biannual gathering of researchers and advocates focused on human–animal intergroup relations, moral psychology, and behaviour change.For more info check out the blog at www.thedealwithanimals.comGuest Book Recommendations List
Transcribe →145. Patreon Bonus Content Preview! From Dogfighting to Rabies to Runaway Dogs: Clips from Past Guests
Jun 2900:19:41Tap to summarizeSpecial Bonus Content Episode - Sneak Preview from Patreon!This special bonus‑preview episode shares three curated clips from past conversations — deeper dives, tangents, and moments that didn’t make it into the main show. You’ll hear Scott Giacoppo on dogfighting myths and industry beliefs, Suzanne Clothier responding to Marika’s early experience with her newly adopted dog, and Daniel Ettinger discussing the history of animal control, rabies, and the shift toward community‑based practice. This episode also includes a thank‑you gift for early Patreon supporters.Guest Bios: Scott is a longtime animal‑cruelty investigator and former special state police officer with the Massachusetts SPCA. He has extensive experience in dogfighting investigations and national training work with HSUSSuzanne is an internationally respected trainer and author known for her relationship‑based approach to canine behaviour. Her work focuses on trust, emotional clarity, and understanding dogs as individuals.Daniel is a Field Services Manager with a career spanning animal control, field training, and shelter operations. He is internationally recognised as a speaker and educator who challenges stereotypes in animal control and promotes compassionate, community‑focused practice. He co‑hosts Keep It Humane: The Podcast and The Animal Control Report.Be a supporter- Become a WILD Scholar at The Deal with Animals Patreon pageRelated Links:TDWA BlogGuest Book Recommendations List
Transcribe →144. Engineered for Exploitation with Amber Canavan (S16)
Jun 1500:46:31Tap to summarizeEpisode 5 of Series 16: The Captivity Conversation - Transcript Amber reveals what happens when an animal’s entire life is shaped around the profitability of her reproductive system, and what it means to rethink captivity from the inside out.Guest Bio: Amber Canavan is the Associate Director of Vegan Campaigns at People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), where she focuses on improving the lives of animals used for food. Her work includes persuading major retailers like Costco, Target, and Albertsons to stop selling coconut milk sourced from brands that rely on forced monkey labour in Thailand; pushing Kikkoman to end decades‑long animal experiments; and convincing Starbucks, Dutch Bros, and other coffee chains to drop their vegan‑milk upcharge.Book Recommendations: What the Chicken Knows: A New Appreciation of the World's Most Familiar Bird by Sy MontgomeryRelated Links:E92. with Patrice Jones of VINE Sanctuary (Mar 2024)E111. Special Episode with Sy Montgomery (Dec 2024) See the 'cage free' videoWhite Paper on Cage Free (PETA)Cage FreeVINE SanctuaryTDWA BlogGuest Book Recommendations List
Transcribe →143. The Captivity of Fishes with Dr. Culum Brown
Jun 100:40:08Tap to summarizeEpisode 4 of Series 16: The Captivity Conversation TranscriptDr. Culum Brown's insights challenge our assumptions about agency underwater and ask us to reconsider what captivity means for animals whose intelligence we’ve long underestimated.Guest Bios: Dr. Culum Brown is a behavioural ecologist and Professor at Macquarie University, known for his pioneering research on fish cognition, learning, and welfare. He has published extensively on how fishes navigate their environments, form memories, solve problems, and experience stress, and his work has helped reshape scientific and public understanding of intelligence underwater. Culum is the long‑time Editor of the Journal of Fish Biology and a leading voice in global discussions about fish sentience and the ethical implications of keeping fishes in captivity.Book Recommendations: On the Origin of Species: Or; The Preservation of the Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life by Charles DarwinRelated Links:121. Is the Joy of Sex Common Across Species? with Dr. Jonathan Balcombe (S13)48: Underwater Bioacoustics with Dr. Michelle Fournet (S6)123. Are We Turning Marine Mammals into Breeding Machines? with Dr. Lori Marino (S13)The Fish LabTDWA BlogGuest Book Recommendations List
Transcribe →142. Creating a Multispecies Community with Animal Welfare Scientist, Lauri Torgerson-White (S16)
May 1700:39:16Tap to summarizeEpisode 3 of Series 16: The Captivity Conversation - Transcript In this episode, animal welfare scientist Lauri Torgerson‑White unpacks how sanctuaries can become true multispecies communities, exploring what agency, choice, and ethical care look like when we design environments with animals rather than for them.Guest Bios: Lauri Torgerson‑White is an agency‑focused animal welfare scientist working with New York University’s All Animals Initiative and serving as Director of Sanctuary Animal Well‑Being at Operation Angels. Her career spans the Detroit Zoo’s Center for Zoo Animal Welfare, Mercy For Animals, and Farm Sanctuary, where she helped establish sanctuary‑based research programs. Her scholarship explores animal cognition, behaviour, welfare, and ethical research design across farmed and zoological settings. Guided by data and driven by compassion, Lauri’s work asks how humans can re‑enter multispecies communities with humility, curiosity, and a commitment to shared flourishing.Book Recommendations: The Arrogant Ape: And A New Way To See Humanityby Christine Webb and Birds as Individuals by Len HowardRelated Links:TDWA BlogGuest Book Recommendations List Ep 111. What the Chicken Knows...with Author Sy MontgomeryEp 92. Speciesism and The Chicken Encounter That Changed Everything with Pattrice Jones of VINE Animal SanctuaryMentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Minis-series coming Summer 2026
Transcribe →141. Where Primates Go to Heal with Primatologist Andy Gray
May 400:41:43Tap to summarizeEpisode Two of Series 16: The Captivity Question- Transcript (linked)Primatologist, Andy Gray explains how primate sanctuaries exist to provide lifelong, species‑appropriate care—especially social companionship—for primates who often arrive with trauma, abnormal behaviors, or complex medical needs. She describes the growing demand for sanctuary placement driven by illegal pet trade, confiscations, and increased awareness, alongside the emotional and logistical challenges sanctuaries and staff face. She also highlights the importance of collaboration between sanctuaries and zoos, the rise of operant conditioning for stress‑free veterinary care, and the urgent need for legislation like the Captive Primate Safety Act.Guest Bio: Amanda “Andy” Gray is the Director of NAPSA and has worked with primates since 2008, beginning as a volunteer at Chimpanzee Sanctuary Northwest and the Chimpanzee and Human Communication Institute while studying Primate Behavior, Ecology, and Anthropology at Central Washington University. She earned her Master’s in Primate Conservation at Oxford Brookes University, conducting research on slow lorises affected by the illegal pet trade, and later worked as a caregiver and fundraiser at several NAPSA member sanctuaries, including Save the Chimps. Most recently, she served as Program Manager for Second Chance Chimpanzee Refuge Liberia, overseeing operations, strategy, and development; she now lives in Southern California with her family and two rescue dogs.Book Recommendations: Holidays on Ice by David SedarisRelated Links:WILDLIFE CONFISCATION NETWORKCaptive Primate Safety Act- 2008Great Ape Heart ProjectEp 133. Speaking Across SpeciesEp 124 What Can A Matriarchal Society Teach UsEp 93. Human Relevant TestingMentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Minis-series coming Summer 2026
Transcribe →140. Choice and Control with Applied Behavior Scientist, Dr. Susan Friedman
Apr 2000:52:42Tap to summarizeEpisode One of Series 16 : The Captivity Question - Transcript (linked)Dr. Susan Friedman joins me to explore captivity through the lens of behaviour science — from choice and control to “freeing the operant,” honouring the no, and shaping the yes. We discuss how environments shape agency for animals in zoos, sanctuaries, and homes, and what true welfare requires.Women Podcaster Awards- VoteGuest Bio: Dr. Susan G. Friedman is a professor emeritus of psychology at Utah State University and the founder of Behavior Works Consulting. She has co‑authored chapters in five veterinary texts, and her widely read articles have been translated into 17 languages. Susan’s online course, How Behavior Works, has reached students in 64 countries, and she consults internationally with zoos and animal‑care organizations, including teaching for BIAZA’s Animal Trainer Accreditation program. She served on the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service’s California Condor Recovery Team and currently chairs the Scientific Advisory Committee for American Humane’s Film and TV Unit. Her newest initiative, Behavior Works Zoo School, launches in 2026.Susan's Book Recommendations: The Science of Consequences: How They Affect Genes, Change the Brain, and Impact Our World by Susan SchneiderRelated Links: bwzs.orgbehaviourworks.orgTDWA BlogGuest Book Recommendations List - USAUK Guest Book Rec List Behaviour Science Glossary- Operant BehaviourBehaviour animals learn because it works — it produces outcomes they want or helps them avoid outcomes they don’t. It’s shaped by consequences, not instinct.Freeing the OperantDesigning environments where animals can choose how to behave to get outcomes. Instead of training step‑by‑step, you provide meaningful reasons to behave and let the animal’s natural problem‑solving emerge.ReinforcersAnything an animal values enough to work for: food, social contact, exploration, novelty, comfort, problem‑solving. Reinforcers are the “reasons” animals behave.For‑Shortened ReinforcersA concept from Susan Schneider: boredom isn’t caused by small spaces but by limited access to meaningful reinforcers. Captivity reduces the variety of things animals can work for.Engaging EnvironmentsSusan’s preferred term over “enrichment.” Instead of adding extras, it means creating a lifestyle environment that naturally invites exploration, agency, and species‑typical behaviour.ContingencyThe relationship between behaviour and outcome: If I do X, Y happens. Animals constantly test these relationships to understand what they can control.Differential ReinforcementReinforcing one behaviour while not reinforcing another, so the animal learns which behaviour “works.” It teaches what to do, not just what not to do.Extinction (Behaviour Science)When a behaviour stops because it no longer produces the expected outcome. Not punishment — just a missing payoff. Susan discusses new methods that avoid extinction because it can be frustrating for animals.Poisoned Cue / Poisoned LabelA cue or word that has been paired with something unpleasant so often that it becomes aversive. For example, a dog who hears “come!” and expects scolding.Honouring the NoRecognising and respecting when an animal communicates discomfort or refusal — shifting weight, turning away, freezing, widening eyes. It’s the ethical foundation of cooperative care.Shaping the YesAdjusting our behaviour, tools, timing, or reinforcers so the animal can eventually say yes willingly. It’s about building consent, not forcing compliance.Dialogue (Human–Animal)A two‑way interaction where both individuals influence each other’s behaviour. Not negotiation — a responsive conversation built from cues and feedback.Study of OneTreating each animal as an individual learner rather than a representative of their species. Behaviour science is always personal.AgencyAn animal’s ability to make choices that matter — choices that influence their own outcomes. Agency is central to Susan’s welfare philosophy.Mentioned in this episode:PHAIR Conference CoverageNew Miniseries begins Summer 2026
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