← The Deep End With Lecrae
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- [00:00]
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Abdu Murray
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Abdu Murray
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Abdu Murray
Book with VRBox. I thought the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Cross all insulted God's greatness. If God the Father is God, why does he need help from God the Son and God the Holy Spirit? The cross is like the ultimate insult to God's greatness because the God who can create the entire universe subatomic particle that God gets trapped in the body and dies at the hands of the very sinners he creates. Say, that was a great God.
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Lecrae
What's the aha moment for you where you're like, all right, I had the
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Abdu Murray
evidence for Islam stacked on my desk on the left side, the evidence for Christianity stacked on the right side of my desk. And I was playing a debate between a Christian and a Muslim on the resurrection of Jesus. And I remember asking God saying, why can't I accept this? Why can't I embrace this as true? My dad walked by and he smiled at me because I was such a studious Muslim. I remember thinking, I can't break my dad's heart. Can't do it. I knew that in that moment it wasn't the evidence wasn't good enough is that I wasn't strong enough for the
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Lecrae
Christian nationalist, so to speak, who says, like, hey, we've got to send bombs over into this nation because they're dangerous.
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Abdu Murray
I will tell you, when I was becoming a Christian, that was a stumbling block for me because people were telling me God loves everybody. And I'm like, well, he loves some people more than others. This is the deep end with Lecrae.
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Lecrae
All right, ladies and gentlemen, today we have the esteemed pleasure of speaking with Abdul Murray, who is a speaker, an author attorney based in metro Detroit who spent most of his life as a devout Muslim. He had a nine year investigation into history, philosophy, theology, and science, and it brought him face to face with the Christian faith. He's a graduate of the University of Michigan with a BA in psychology and a JD in law. Abdul practiced law at major Detroit firms. Name one of the best lawyers in Michigan. You know, Michigan super lawyer. He's founded Embrace the Truth Ministry in 04. He has debated and dialogued at universities from Yale to Berkeley to institutions in Peru and Hong Kong. The man is an apologist of apologists. He is a cultural and theological expert. He's authored multiple books, including his forthcoming book or his, his recent book, Excuse me, Fake id, which talks about how AI and IDE identity ideology are collapsing our reality. He's a host of multiple podcasts and, you know, they get millions of views globally. And he lives in metro Detroit with his, with his family. Wife and three kids, if I'm not mistaken.
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Abdu Murray
Yeah.
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Lecrae
And so we are honored to have this esteemed scholar in our presence. There are just a million different questions and things that we could lay before you. But, but, but sincerely, we appreciate your presence.
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Abdu Murray
Oh, it's great to be here, man. Thanks for having me. And always appreciate the thoughtfulness with which you bring, either you bring to the table, whether it's these podcasts or through your music. It's been a real pleasure and an honor to, to work alongside you in the past.
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Lecrae
Yeah, man, it's a pleasure, man.
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Abdu Murray
Yeah.
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Lecrae
So I, I know that, you know, you are more than an apologist, but you are a phenomenal apologist.
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Abdu Murray
Oh, thank you.
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Lecrae
That's actually how we met was, you know, various different events and conferences where you were, you know, articulating truth to especially like, it was a, it was a younger demographic.
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Abdu Murray
Yeah, it was a young adult conference.
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Lecrae
Yeah, that's right. And, and I was blown away at your perspectives. I mean, you were just able to understand what culture was wrestling with and, and then to give answers in a very. It was accessible. It was very intellectual, but it was accessible. And I thought that that was so profound. And so I was like, man, there's so many questions that people have today that I feel like you would be great to bring some clarity to.
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Abdu Murray
Yeah, I'd love to. Yeah, absolutely. And part of that's the lawyer training. You know, you had to. As a litigator when you go to court on tv, everyone gets to argue and be as articulate as possible and they give their full argument. In reality, you have about 10 minutes total, you and the other side and the judge is going to interrupt you and you got to make your point as quickly as possible, as excessively as possible, in a way that is compelling but also commensurate with the evidence. So part of that ability to do that was sort of beaten in me through the school of hard knocks of being in a courtroom where inefficiency of language.
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Lecrae
Yeah.
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Abdu Murray
Can be punished.
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Lecrae
Oh, you got 10 minutes. That's it.
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Abdu Murray
Yeah, that's right.
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Lecrae
No, it's really great to have that perspective just a little bit about, about your background. For those who don't know you, you grew up in a strong Shiite Muslim, devout Muslim household.
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Abdu Murray
That's right. That's right.
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Lecrae
You know, Lebanese American family in Detroit. So Islam wasn't just like a religion, it was like the framework of your house.
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Abdu Murray
Yeah, it really was. And like every family that's religious, you have varying levels of devot practice within, within a family dynamic. That's in every religious family that I know. But no, it was, it was the lens through which I looked at the world. It definitely was. And I was encouraged to really care about Islam. And so I'm a, you know, I was born in the 70s, I'm a child of the 80s, which means that I remember the 80s and I remember the 90s as my formative years. And back then it wasn't, it was still fashionable to say you were a Christian even if you didn't mean it. Now it's sort of. Everyone's dropped the pretense and if they don't really mean it, they say, I don't really mean it. Back then people said it all the time. So I was engaging with Christians at a young age on worldview issues because, you know, I thought Islam was true and I wouldn't have any of this, like, if it's true for you, it's true for you. If it's true for me, it's true for me. Leave me alone. It was, if it's true, it's true and you should believe true things and not false things. And let's hash this out. I thought Christianity was right hearted but wrongheaded. There was this whole thing about like the sentiment of God loves you and he'll do anything for you. That's great. But this cross trinity incarnation, all that stuff is, it's just wrongheaded. And it also insults God's Greatness, because that is the central thing. I think that if, if people wanted to know one thing about Islam, use a lot to know, but if you wanted to know one thing about the worldview of Islam, regardless of the level of devotion of a Muslim, whether they're sufa, orthoprax, you know, they pray the five daily prayers, they read the Quran daily, they've gone on Hajj and they've gone to the pilgrimage, they fast Ramadan without fail and super strictly, or it's just more of a cultural marker for them. They still have this fundamental understanding of this phrase. And we hear it all the time. It's Allahu Akbar, we hear this phrase all the time. And the reality is, is that Muslim, it means God is greater. So for the Muslim, God's greatness is the central doctrine of all of Islam, which means that for me as a Muslim, I thought the Trinity, the Incarnation and the Cross all insulted God's greatness. And that's why I rejected them. Because, you know, if God the Father is God, why does he need help from God the Son and God the Holy Spirit? And it sounds a little bit like tritheism, not really monotheism. And the cross is like the ultimate insult to God's greatness because the God who can create the entire universe in terms of its great expanse, but also the most infinitesimal subatomic particle, that God gets trapped in a body and dies at the hands of the very sinners he creates, say that was a great God. And most Christians had no idea how to respond to that. But along the way, there were Christians who knew what they were talking about and knew how to not only give me answers to those objections, but answers in a way that addressed the thing I cared about, which was God's greatness. And so I come to understand through the various searching and through the interactions that is the Trinity, the Cross and the Incarnation don't insult God's grace. They actually demonstrate it far better than any other worldview. So that's where the melding of the intellectual, the philosophical understanding of those ideas with the heart like, well, why should I care? That was a big part of my journey. Which is why, hopefully, as a ministry, our goal is to not answer questions. We answer people because questions don't need answers, but people do.
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Lecrae
Oh, I love the way you articulated that. That kind of makes me think, like you said, questions don't need answers, people do. Yeah, like we're in this, this kind of period of time where because there's tension between the us and Iran and Israel and Iran, that there's more conversation about Islam and specifically in America.
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Abdu Murray
Oh, yeah.
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Lecrae
And I'm curious for somebody who grew up in Islam, I mean, obviously there's the Sunni, there's the Shiite, there's delineations. But for a lot of us Americans, we have questions like, as people who aren't Islam or aren't Muslim, you know, there's people who are like, well, what does this mean? And if they come over here or if they begin to, you know, populate America, what are these realities? And I'm curious, from somebody who was raised in Islam, like, what. What are people really asking when they ask these questions?
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Abdu Murray
Yeah, well, that's actually a great way to put it. That's a great way to ask the question, because I get the question all the time, is Islam a religion of peace? And so I have two responses to that. My first response is a lawyer's response, which is, it depends. Any good lawyer will tell you the. The answer to any question is almost always it depends on what this or this means. So when I ask the qu. I respond, I say, what do you mean by religion? That's the first thing. And then my second question is, and why do you want to know? Because if the answer is going to be absolutely not, it's a religion of violence, and it teaches subjugation and all these things, well, that's going to cause you to interact with the Muslims around you in a way that's a little bit. And maybe you want to fear them or want to be angry. Or is it. Are you okay with a subtle answer, a nuanced answer, which is why the. It depends on what you mean by religion. So as I grew up, there were no, you know, plots to take over the country that I was aware of. There were no. There was no Muslims sitting behind the airport, you know, stairwell, twisting their mustache, thinking ways to blow the place up. Now, that doesn't mean that there weren't Muslims who were doing that.
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Lecrae
Sure.
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Abdu Murray
It just. I didn't know any, and I still don't know any. That is to say, though, that when I say it depends on what you mean by religion, what I mean is, is that if you were to ask what is at the heart of Islam as a religion, and you mean by that is, what did the founder teach and what was the original message and ethos of the founder and of the original years of the founding, that's going to be a disturbing answer. If by religion what you mean is, what do the majority of the people who follow that Religion actually believe it teaches or how do they actually practice that? It's going to be not as disturbing answer.
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Lecrae
Okay,
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Abdu Murray
so when we look at the original documents, there's some issues there and some we have to wrestle with that. And we can't, we can't shy away from the reality that there is passages in the Quran, for example, that talk about the subjugation of those who aren't Muslims. You're allowed to practice your religion, but in order to do that you have to pay a tax, as one example. And then there's also violence and these kind of things that are commanded against people because of what they believe, not just because of what they do. So those are things we have to wrestle with. By far, the vast majority of Muslims don't even know that exists. And by far the vast majority of Muslims in America or the West, I should say, are just hoping to sort of live the quintessential American dream, find a job, find the spouse of their dreams, marry that person, have kids, have those kids, find the spouse of their dreams, enjoy grandkids, and then die. And that is very familiar to all of us. And that's the vast majority. So for me, the question is, when we ask the question, what is our motivation in asking now if it's the fine truth? You need to make sure you understand there are some troubling issues and there's some nuance to it as well. We need to interact with these people who are all made in God's image, by the way. That's a fundamental thing in a way that I think pulls them toward the person of Christ. And that's what happened with me. I didn't leave Islam because I thought that was false. I became a Christian because I thought this was true. Now, by implication, Islam is false because it contradicts Christianity in fundamental ways, not the least of which is the deity of Christ and the cross itself. It denies that the crucifixion of Jesus actually happened, therefore there's no resurrection. So, but ultimately, how I think we're going to reach the. The Islamic community is to find out what individual Muslims care about and they're as different as anybody else. Find out the way the gospel speaks to what they care about and then tailor the, the. Your. The way you deliver that truth in a way that speaks to them personally. And I think that's the way to do it. Yeah, yeah, we can be angry and cautious and all these kind of things and shout and all that. I don't know how productive video that is. So I guess in the End. I would say it's all about not answering a worldview. It's answering a person. Yeah. And then by doing that, you start to answer everybody. But you can't shy away from the fact that there are parts of that worldview that are troubling. Yeah. And we need to deal with that. We just do. Keeping naive really quick.
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Lecrae
I want to interrupt this because I've talked to people who love God, but they feel trapped in their own thoughts. It's like you've been praying, but it never feels right. Or a thought hits your mind and now you're questioning everything. You think it's you, but it might not be. It could be religious. Ocd. OCD attaches to what you care about most. So your faith becomes a target. You start repeating prayers, overthinking, trying to fix every thought, and it just keeps cycling. That's where no CD comes in. No CD is the world's leading OCD treatment provider. All their licensed therapists are trained in erp, or Exposure and Response prevention therapy, the most effective treatment for ocd. They understand what's happening and they help you break free from it without compromising your faith. In live virtual sessions, they'll help you break free from OCD's grip while honoring your faith so you can get back to focusing on what really matters most. NOCD is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. And they provide support between sessions so you're never alone. That sounds like you. Then go to nocd.com and book a free 15 minute call. That's n O C D. I hope you're not falling asleep as you're watching this episode or listening to this episode. All right, I need you to focus now. I used to think I needed more coffee, but honestly, a lot of times I just needed more hydration. Better hydration. Like you feel all flow energy, brain fog and you don't realize you're just dehydrated. And that's why I keep Drip Drop on me now. Every day I keep it on me. Especially with my workouts, my travel and my long days. Drip Drop is doctor developed proven fast hydration that helps your body and your mind work better. Which is exactly what 2026 version of you needs. Okay? So I want you to think support for busy days, long workouts, everything in between. It works. Drip Drop uses science based formulas for rapid hydration so you feel results fast while getting three times the electrolytes of leading sports drinks. That's why real professionals use it. Drip Drop is trusted by firefighters, medical professionals over 90% of top collagen proteins because it's engineered to hydrate you faster and more effectively than water alone. And the new Zero Sugar plus is clutch, especially for your guy here. It's advanced electrolytes, 15 vitamins, no sugar. And I like the lemon lime flavor. I use it daily, honestly, not just for workouts. It's part of the routine now. So if you're trying to level up your health, go to drip drop.com, use my promo code, LECRAE for 20% off. What is it like, I mean, like, for. For you? Because obviously in America, everyone's like, oh, I'm a Christian. Yeah, I'm a Christian. I'm a Christian. I'm a Christian. And most people who say they're a Christian probably don't really have a grasp on grace or the atonement or anything like that.
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Abdu Murray
Right.
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Lecrae
So I imagine similarly with Islam as a. I. You got family who is Islam, who. Who are Muslim. You. You grew up around this, in this. This is your identity, your. Your worldview as a kid growing up. These are still your family members. These are still people that you're close to. What is the general perspective that you would say they have of. Of us as Americans or.
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Abdu Murray
Yeah, it.
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Lecrae
When we're in this tense place with Iran, like. Like, how are your family or friends or people that. You know, what is the general consensus of this? Because there are some people. The original point I was making is that there are some practicing Muslims who. They're. They're not thinking about all these nuances and, and all these deeper things that Americans are raging against and like, oh, this is a bloody religion and you guys are trying to kill us and so on and so forth.
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Abdu Murray
Right.
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Lecrae
But what. What would. You know? Obviously, you can't speak for everybody.
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Abdu Murray
Right.
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Lecrae
But in your experience, what are people thinking from looking from the outside, looking in?
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Abdu Murray
Yeah. So as a Muslim looks, if they're on the outside because they're a minority in terms of the religion, if they're looking from the outside looking at it, sort of the American Christian experience. And what is this all about? There's a couple of things that they would. They would look at. Is one, they are. Whether the right or wrong isn't the issue, but they are perplexed by a unilateral support of one country. They're perplexed by that. They don't understand it. And I will tell you, when I was becoming a Christian, that was a stumbling block for me. It was a big issue because people were telling me, God loves everybody. And I'm like, well, he loves some people more than others. And that, that was a stumbling block for me. And that was in 1999.
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Lecrae
Now why is that?
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Abdu Murray
I became a Christian in 2000, but. Well, because, okay, in 1999, the Y2K bug was everything, right? Everyone's talking about the end of the world's going to happen, we're going to have one world government and all this stuff. I wasn't a Christian at the time. I was exploring the things of faith. I was on the tail end of my nine year search into this whole thing and I was finding the compel, the evidence for the Christian faith to be compelling in so many ways. I mean, I was there, I was there. But during that whole Y2K bug experience where everyone was talking about there's going to be, this is a sign of the end times and it's coming and here's what's happening. And you're already seeing these, these, these, these nations align against Israel and there's going to be the time of Jacob's trouble and all this stuff. That was the loudest voices, those were the loudest voices speaking in the evangelical world at the time, at a time when I was looking for reasons not to become a Christian. Okay, so because I'm Lebanese, there is a, there's a history of the interaction of Lebanon and Israel, whether from the Christians or the Muslims of Lebanon or the Druze, there's a small minority of people called the Druze that are there. And so there's a history and there's baggage. Whether it's accurate isn't the point. The point is it's emotional baggage and it's there. So as I was seeing a lot of evangelical Christians talking about the end times and emphasizing that and that the, the armies that were gathering around Israel were the enemies and they were all Arab nations. It became this us versus them thing. To me, whether I was accurate wasn't the point. The point. I was hearing more voices talking about that and less voices talking about the validity and the beauty of the gospel in the midst of conflict and how the gospel actually answers conflict. So that was a stumbling block for me because everyone was telling me God so loved the world. I'm like, well, God so loved most of the world or at least part of the world, but he doesn't seem to love us. And I was wrong. Obviously. That's the perception I had.
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Lecrae
But the thought process, just not to cut you off, the thought process is that from evangelical Christians were saying we're either explicitly or non Explicitly communicating that we're the good guys and the Muslim nations, the Muslim countries are the bad guys.
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Abdu Murray
That's absolutely. And I was attributing that to. To the religion as well, but also the ethnicity, because I was getting more and more aware of Arab Christians. Okay. I knew they're always there. I mean, and in Palestine, for example, and in the west bank, and especially in the west bank, there is a Muslim. Sorry, a Christian population that's there. And I was becoming more and more aware of them. And so I was equating the ethnicity as well. It's like, well, they're not as. We don't. We don't hear them. We don't believe them as much. Okay. As maybe Jewish voices or Christian voices and these kind of things. Again, whether I was accurate about it isn't the point. The point is I felt that because the voices were loudly speaking on dividing lines. So from the outside looking in, the short answer is it looked like there was a very much an us versus them kind of a thing, and we were them. And that was a block for me, because. Stumbling block, because John 3:16 was a bridge of the us versus them is not so much verses. It's the us was once them and we're all being brought in, and that's good news. And it was being obfuscated by a lot of the divisive rhetoric. And I think that has only amplified in the 26 years since I became a Christian.
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Lecrae
I want to talk a little bit about your conversion because nine years is a long time.
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Abdu Murray
Yeah. Yeah, it is.
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Lecrae
Were you trying to disprove Christianity? Were you. Was it the lawyer skill set that was trying to wrestle, like, how. Why did it take nine years? And then, like, how did that. Like, what was the aha moment? What was the inception? And then, like, the aha moment?
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Abdu Murray
Yeah, yeah. So it took nine years. And this is. This is the fundamental reason why it took nine years. It didn't take nine years because the truth was hard to find. It took nine years because the truth was hard to accept.
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Lecrae
Okay, that's good.
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Abdu Murray
I found the answers sufficient to become a Christian within two years of my search. I wrestled with the consequences of becoming a Christian for seven more years because I did not want to deal with those consequences. And so I try to find ways around it.
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Lecrae
What were the consequences?
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Abdu Murray
Well, there's the chief one we've already talked about is identity.
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Lecrae
Okay.
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Abdu Murray
When Sam Solomon, who is a former Muslim as well, he's passed away now, but he did a very helpful diagram. He drew a square and he put a dot in the middle of the square. He says, in the west, the square is your identity and the dot is religious identity. It's a very small part of who you are. We're hyper individualistic. We tailor our lives around multiple facets of our lives. We're hyper individual. So religious identity is a small part of who we are. In the Middle east, it's exactly the opposite. The square is religious identity and the dot is you. Religious identity permeates everything. So that's why you can sit across the table from a Muslim who has never prayed the five daily prayers, who reads the Quran only when it's convenient to do so, and doesn't fast Ramadan and all this stuff. And they will get involved in a verbal death match with you about whether Islam is true or not. And you're like, why do you believe it if you don't practice it at all? Because it's identity. So one of the consequences was I would lose that.
- [26:01]
Lecrae
That's good.
- [26:01]
Abdu Murray
And I very much didn't want to. There's, of course, with that, there's social consequences. Friends, family, etc. There's, of course, what I was hearing and, you know, whether it's going to be threats on my life and all that. None of that happened, by the way. Not here, at least. You know, people. I didn't get any threats. And they always tell you the credible threats are the ones that never come. So I'm like, maybe, maybe it's worse than I think it is, but I've never heard them. But anyway, for me, that was the consequence, the chief of which was identity. Yeah, I, I formed an identity as a Muslim, especially in, in the immediate community, as somebody who kind of knew what they were talking about and was religious. And I didn't want to give that up. Yeah. And of course, there was the social consequences as well. So that was a big part of it, because I come from an honor and shame culture. And honor and shame culture elevates honor at any expense. So you can believe true things if they're honorable, but we will hide against false things or we'll sweep false things under the rug because we don't want to have shame. So we will believe things we know to be false, even if they are, even if it comes to our awareness, because to believe otherwise would be shameful. So, you know, every culture has its, its, its light sides and its shadow sides and honor and shame culture has a wonderful communal aspect to it. Yeah. But the shadow side is, is that the community at all costs? Yeah. Even to the cost of truth. So that was my big thing. Okay, so.
- [27:34]
Lecrae
So two years, you had sufficient truth.
- [27:36]
Abdu Murray
Yeah. And so that started because there were. I would ask Christians a question, and the question was, why are you a Christian? And they normally said, I don't know. I'm a Presbyterian that go to the Presbyterian Church on Christmas and Easter. And it sounds like a question, not an answer. I'm like, are you sure? And I said, wait, are you telling me that you trust the destiny of your eternal soul to a worldview someone else thought through, and you haven't thought through it yourself? You don't do that with your retirement, you don't do that with school, you don't do that with who you're going to marry. Why would you trust your eternal soul to just. They thought about it. It's good enough for me. Like, well, it's a matter of faith. You don't think about faith. I'm like, actually, you do. I thought about it for you. Here's 10 reasons why you're wrong. And along the way, there's these two guys who came to our apartment at the University of Michigan in my undergraduate days, Dave and Pete. Dave and Pete were two Baptist guys, older guys from down the street. They were going door to door at the apartments there in Ann Arbor is basically Berkeley, California, but snow, okay? So it's not exactly warm to like these, you know, gentle old Baptist guys from down the street. It's gonna be like, nope. And it's a lot of door slam. They came to our apartment, and I was like, you guys deliver. This is great. So they came into our apartment and we made these guys extremely uncomfortable for hours at a time. But I could tell these guys really wanted us to go to heaven and I wanted them to go to God's paradise. So we developed a nice relationship, and they kept coming back and kept coming back. And I was reading the Bible to try to find an unresolvable contradiction, especially in Jesus's words, between him saying this and then saying not that in different Gospels. Or the Gospel of Mark records this and Gospel Luke records not that, the opposite. Not that he didn't. Didn't do it, but says he didn't do it. And I was having a hard time finding that. And Luke, chapter three, verses seven. And following jumped out at me, John the Baptist. And this is a parallel passage in Matthew, chapter three. John the Baptist is talking to those who are coming to him, and he says, who told you to flee from the wrath to come? Meaning God's judgment. He says, Something fascinating. He says, do not even begin to think to yourself, you have Abraham as your father, as if your heritage will save you. For I tell you, God can raise up children of Abraham from the stones. And it suddenly occurred to me, I was telling Christians, tradition is not a good enough reason to believe anything. And John the Baptist was agreeing with me. And that bothered me so much because I suddenly was convicted. It's like I was asking Christians, why are you a Christian? And they never, I put them on the defensive so they never really fundamentally asked me, why are you a Muslim? And John the Baptist did. And I believe the Holy Spirit, God himself preserved that word over the 20 centuries from when John spoke it to when I read it, so that I would be challenged by my own motivations. And my motivation was tradition. And I was a total hypocrite. I was saying, that's not good enough, but it is for me. So I decided that day I am going to find out what the truth is, regardless of tradition. I was totally confident Islam would win, by the way. Totally confident. But that changed my mindset ever so slightly. And the first, I had many aha moments. The first one came when, with the slight mindset, mindset shift, I was reading the Quran. And the Quran has, has numerous patches that speak of the Bible in very positive terms. So this is like 1991, 1992. And the, the, the Quran says, for example, in the fifth chapter of the Quran, it says, let the people of the Gospel, meaning Christians, judge, present tense. That word in Arabic is yaakom. It's a present tense imperative verb. It means you can do it right now, in the seventh century in Arabia, judged by what God has revealed in the Gospel. And those who do not judge by what God has revealed are among the evildoers. So if the, if the Bible was changed, as most Muslims believe, then why is the Quran telling Christians that you are an evildoer unless you judge by the gospel, which they'd have to have available to them to do the judging. Same chapter, verse, verse 68. It says in Arabic it's people of the Book, which is a euphemism for Christians and Jews, which is you have no foundation, you are not on anything, you stand on nothing. And that word is a present tense verb, once again, meaning in the seventh century, you can do this until you observe. That's what it means, the Gospel, the Torah, and all the revelations that have come to you from your Lord. Well, how can they observe the Gospel in the Torah if they don't have it? And if it's been lost and corrupted. So that got me thinking. Oh, my goodness. The Quran doesn't say what Muslims have been saying. It says, it says that this Bible is trustworthy and authority, but they contradict each other. So now the question is, how do I resolve the contradiction? Was the Bible changed after the Quran or was? And so you look into the history. Nope. What we have now is what they wrote then in terms of the Bible. So how do you mess with the contra. How do you deal with the contradictions? Because I don't want to make it. I don't want to make a choice. And so what I did was I played with the words, I did a lawyer thing, and I said, well, it could mean this and it could mean that. So when Jesus says I and the Father are one, he doesn't really mean ontologically in terms of our nature. What he means is in our mission, in our goal, in our message. Right. Which of course, that's not what he means, but I wanted him to mean that. Yeah. Oh, the Quran says they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him. I'm like, that's a tough one because the history is all there. And the Bible, that's the whole point of the Gospels. So what do I do with that? Well, you do what a lawyer does and you try to find a loophole somewhere. Like, oh, wait, in the Old Testament, the prophecies of the Messiah being stricken, it was God who struck the Messiah. So, ah, so they didn't kill him, but maybe it was God who did it. And so I can get around this. I was playing fast and loose with this whole thing.
- [33:52]
Lecrae
You know, are you like, what does it feel like to see the.
- [33:57]
Abdu Murray
The
- [33:59]
Lecrae
scriptures that you have held fast to begin to deteriorate in front of your eyes?
- [34:07]
Abdu Murray
Yeah, yeah, man. It is not a pleasant feeling. It is sort of what Al Gore would call an inconvenient truth. You know, you're engaging in this. You've trusted your worldview to this book, and you've almost idolized this book to the point where it's almost God to you. Because for Muslims, the Quran is the literal, dictated word of God. It's not the inspired word of God, it's the dictated word of God, perfectly preserved throughout the centuries and all this. So there is almost a talismanic idolization of a book and on the equation of the God who revealed that book. So that's a worldview shift. That's a huge worldview shift. And it's incredibly uncomfortable. And the likeness I often give Is that if you ever tried to pry someone's hand open from a fist and they don't want you to, it's very difficult for you to pry their hand open. It hurts. You and them, you both experience the pain in that. That's what it's like. Because for me, Islam wasn't just a thing I believed. It was a worldview. The Quran wasn't just a book that I read. It was the foundation of reality for me. And so reality felt like it was crumbling. And that goes into the whole identity issue. Because, man, when you wrap up your identity in something and that suddenly starts to shift and you don't know anymore, a lot of things become disoriented.
- [35:30]
Lecrae
Yeah. You're essentially deconstructing.
- [35:33]
Abdu Murray
Yeah, absolutely. And that's why I talk about the deconstruction movement that happened. Like, look, I know what that's like. I know what it's like to experience a season of doubt and think to myself, whoa, is what I believe this whole time really true or is there something else to this? The good news, I was not just deconstructing for the sake of deconstruction. It was deconstruction for the sake of reconstruction. Come on. Of a truth. Of a truth.
- [35:56]
Lecrae
You talking my language.
- [35:57]
Abdu Murray
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, yeah. So it could be a valuable thing if we're going towards reconstruction. Yeah.
- [36:03]
Lecrae
So eventually, what's the aha moment for you where you're like, all right, this is it. Like, is it a. Is it, Is it gradual? Is it like Jesus is real?
- [36:13]
Abdu Murray
Yeah.
- [36:14]
Lecrae
What is that?
- [36:15]
Abdu Murray
It was gradual and sudden. So the gradual part was I began to see that no matter how many holes I tried to poke into the historical reality of the crucifixion and the resurrection, I was, I was not. Not able to do it. And the more I saw the solidity of that case for the resurrection of Jesus, among many other things, for the. For the gospel, the more uncomfortable I got with opposing it. I remember, though, there was a moment where that aha moment of why I wouldn't believe it came. And it was when I literally had the evidence for Islam stacked on my desk on the left side, the evidence for Christianity stacked on the right side of my desk, and I was playing a debate between a Christian and a Muslim on the resurrection of Jesus. This is back in the dial up days when the Internet got angry at you for joining and they would yell at you and these noises would come on and a three minute video would take two hours to buffer. But I was listening to this video I was surrounded by the evidence. And I remember asking God, I remember praying, saying, why can't I accept this? Why can't I embrace this as true? I had intellectually assented to its truth. I didn't embrace it as true. Which is why our ministries call to embrace the truth. It's not just knowing it. You have to embrace it. And it's a different thing altogether because it now becomes your. It becomes your, your world, your worldview. And my dad walked by and he smiled at me because I was such a studious Muslim. And I remember thinking, I can't break my dad's heart. Can't do it. And I knew that in that moment it wasn't that I. The evidence wasn't good enough. It said I wasn't strong enough. And over the course of some time, as I began to look at the. The evidence, more and more, I found myself reading the Bible. Not to see if it's true, but to pull truth out of it and apply it to my life. And who is this person of Christ? And here's the aha moment. Remember I had said that God's greatness was the most important thing for a Muslim. And I thought that the cross insulted God's greatness. I came to realize though this, that if God is the greatest possible being, then he would express the greatest possible virtue. And the greatest possible virtue is love. And he would do it in the greatest possible way. If he didn't do any of those things, he wouldn't be any greater than us. But of course he's the greatest possible being there would be. So if he exists, he would express the greatest possible virtue, which is love, in the greatest possible way. And the greatest possible way to express love is self sacrifice. And that's what the cross actually is. So if God exists and God is great, then God is the God of the cross and empty tomb. And that was my aha moment. And that's when I gave my life to Christ.
- [39:09]
Lecrae
Wow. That's extremely powerful. Let's have some real talk, shall we? All right. So lately I've been thinking a lot about legacy. Like not about what we build, right? But about what we pass down. And when I think about my mom, I think there's so much of her story that I didn't grow up fully understanding. And I wish that I had more of it. Like her words, her memories, her perspective. That's why I love Storyworth, because it's more than a one day gift. Every week they're going to send your mom a question about her life and she can answer however she wants. Writing voice or a simple phone call. No text stress. And then after a year, they turn all her stories into this beautiful, hard book cover. And that's not just a gift, right? That's something your family keeps forever. I remember reading one of the responses and thinking, man, that's crazy. Like, I never knew that. That just. That hits different. So use Storyworth. It's great. You need to use it. Trust me. It'll bless your life and create a family legacy. So this year, give your mom a gift that helps her reflect her life spent with fresh perspective. Gives the whole family a gift of her stories. Mother Day, Sunday, May 10th. Right. So. So listen, just. Just. Just order right now. You're gonna save up to $20@storyworth.com Deepend you're gonna save up to 20 bucks@storyworth.com Deepin that's storyworth.com Deepin all right. So order now. Mother's Day's May 10th. You're gonna save up to $20. Just go to storyworth.com Deepend all right, I'll see y' all there. Love your mom. All right, back to our program.
- [40:51]
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- [41:54]
Lecrae
you. You mentioned your father. How did he respond to this? Like, what. What was that relationship like once you transitioned?
- [42:05]
Abdu Murray
Yeah, and so I want to make sure I'm. I'm not careful in the sense that I need to tiptoe around something. It's just my relationship with my dad is profoundly good. We were super close. He did. He didn't take it like didn't take it lightly. It was serious. It was, it was, was. I could imagine if my son. I got a. My son came to me and told me he's a Buddhist or an atheist or whatever it was tomorrow it would. Painful, yeah, very painful. It'd be worldview shattering. So I don't fault anybody for their reaction to this kind of thing. I mean, you think about that. I mean, I'd be pretty hard to deal with. So it was bewilderment, anger, it was confusion. But I was blessed with an extremely close family and a fiercely loyal family. And despite lasting disagreement on this issue, on the issue of worldview, in many ways the Lord restored the years the locusts had eaten. And I would be remiss if I didn't say this because. And the reason why I wanted to be careful was, and this is a bit of a bomb drop in 2024 on October 11, two men who impersonated utility workers conned their way into my parents home, lured my dad downstairs to look for a gas leak, and then murdered him about 15, 16, almost going on 17 months now ago. And I think about that moment, I was actually flying to Dubai when I found out. And it's a very tough thing to turn around on a plane and be on a plane in this dark tube for 16 hours, not including the layovers and all the stuff, you know, and think about that. And my relationship with my dad was good. It was good despite the differences and despite the disagreements, sharp disagreements, it was good. I miss him terribly. Like really, really miss him. And anyway, I bring that up because talking about my dad and then not talking about the thing that was the most seismic thing that happened in our lives in the past year and a half would be odd if I didn't say something about it. But we resolved to make sure that we never. I say we, my wife and I, and they love my wife to death even before we got married. That we would, in the very hard throes of identity, shift and the world is crumbling underneath you, whether it's me or them, is recognize they're going through just as much pain as me and will say dumb things and they'll say dumb things that no one means. And we have to recognize that ultimately we love each other and we care about each other's eternal destinies. And my witness in the middle of that will be more powerful than any argument I ever give. I can give you 10 reasons why Jesus is God. I can give you five lines of evidence for the resurrection or why the Bible is preserved and sort of a First Corinthians 13, if I have not love sounding gong. So we had to be careful that, make sure that that was something that was really important in our, in our witness. Yeah. Yeah.
- [45:37]
Lecrae
I appreciate you sharing that.
- [45:39]
Abdu Murray
Yeah.
- [45:39]
Lecrae
And you know, I know that's, that's painful in my, in my condolences.
- [45:45]
Abdu Murray
Thank you.
- [45:46]
Lecrae
I'm. I'm grateful. Another reason why I'm grateful you shared that is because specifically in the time we live in, I think there's a lot of dehumanization of people, especially people who don't see the world the way that you see the world, don't believe the way you believe. And there's just kind of like this, you know, which I mean, it does go into some of the work that you're. You're currently doing. But we're, we're so self absorbed in this kind of framework that we have says, hey, my way or the highway.
- [46:19]
Abdu Murray
Yeah.
- [46:19]
Lecrae
And we're very brash and we're very. And not considering. Like you said, they're hurting and I'm hurting. They're wrestling and I'm wrestling. And it's not a key. You can just turn.
- [46:32]
Abdu Murray
Yeah.
- [46:32]
Lecrae
And it's like, okay, we'll change your perspective and then we'll. We'll be happy.
- [46:35]
Abdu Murray
That's not how the world works. Right. Not. We're messy and we're complicated and we require effort to not only be cared for, but to care for others. But this is the fundamental thing I think is a part of the Christian worldview that is, I would say, refreshingly unique when it's fully lived out is the imago day. Is that the idea that we're made in God's image, this is not a concept that a lot of other worldviews share. And so if you take someone and you say, this is a person who's made in God's image, every single person. And you know, it's sort of cliche now, but it's true, is that you've never met someone who isn't made in God's image, no matter what they believe, say, think, do, or define themselves as. Which means that in essence, that person bears the imago dei. It bears the image of God, which means they have objective, inherent, eternal, transcendent worth. Their ideas don't. They're not objectively true or always. Sometimes they go right against the evidence and all these things. And sometimes they're bad ideas, sometimes they're horrible ideas. But we have. As a Christian, I have the obligation I have to have the moral humility within myself, but also the obligation theologically to look at a human being and say, you're made in God's image. Which means that I can divorce the value of you as a person from the value of your idea. And in our current culture, those two things are overlaid on top of each other. So that if your idea is terrible, I am justified in hating you. So if I want to be able to eradicate your idea, I am justified in eradicating you. Whether it's cancel culture or what I believe is the leveling up of cancel culture, which is becoming assassination culture. And we're okay with people's deaths and we're celebrating in the street and we're talking about and making fun of these things and all this. It's like, oh my goodness, are we. We've lost our sense of what it means to be human and what other people have in that humanity nested identity thing. And that is part of the work that, that I'm focusing on now with the new book and all this is we went from this thick, robust, beautiful idea that we were a soul. And a soul is connected to a body. And that body isn't wrong, that body isn't perfect, it's subject to decay. All these things that the world is put puts into that body. And you know, all that stuff, but it's, it's not wrong. Inherently, we're meant to be a union of physical and spiritual. But that, that spiritual side, that soul was thick and robust and it was connected by the capacity for relationship with the divine first and then laterally with each other. That's what we thought of ourselves as. You know, when a ship goes down, how many souls were on board? You know, and we used to say things like that over the course of the centuries, we over psychologized and under spiritualized human beings and we shaved a little bit off of the soul concept and we still had a thick idea of what it meant to be human. But that word became self. You know, and I remember my psychology days and all the studies about what is the self? And the self essentially is more, more skull centric. It's like the world outside exists, but how does it affect my sense of self? And then how does my, how does that affect make me affect other people? So it's all about cause and effect. So it's less spiritual and it's now more material. So we went from the soul, which is connected to God and to others, to this more centralized version of ourselves because we over psychologize and under Spiritualized. And in recent decades we've shaved it off even more so now we went from the soul to the self to this, I believe, unbiblical word of identity. I don't mean unbiblical in the sense it's against the Bible. I mean it's non biblical. It's not in there. You won't find it in there. And this idea of identity has become as thin as the bumper stickers we put on the back of our Subarus to tell everybody our opinions. And so we can interchange our identities that fast. Because everything is about this hyper skull centered. My world is in my skull. And in a post truth world where feelings and preferences matter more than facts and truth, everything is about whether my feelings and my preferences are being catered to. So if the truth happens to align with my feelings and my preferences, great. If it happens to go against my feelings and my preferences, well, you're hateful for having brought it up. And now because of hate. And now your identity in my view becomes your opinions. Because my identity in my view has become my opinions. It's not that I just voice this on you.
- [51:35]
Lecrae
Wow.
- [51:36]
Abdu Murray
It's that I think of myself that way, so I'm naturally going to think of you that way. And so now we're these thin people, we're just paper thin. And our identities are held on by nothing stronger than the glue of our bumper stickers. And if we return to that thick idea of the soul, man, we'll be rooted. And I think we won't see people as these opinions to be eradicated. We'll see people as people who are made in the image of God. And we can anchor ourselves amidst this, I believe, a cultural tsunami of superficial identity.
- [52:13]
Lecrae
So, so from this perspective, if the soul matters, if the, the imago dei, the humans made in the image of God, if they matter, then regardless of their opinions or their ideas, they're worth loving, caring for, even working with. To have a different perspective, in some ways it sounds like there should be an effort for diplomacy before eradication.
- [52:44]
Abdu Murray
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Let's take, let's take an example of social example right now is the gender question. Okay, so I do believe that there are some gender issues that are out. I, I do believe that people do have genuine gender dysphoria. That's a real thing. It's not really up for debate. Some people have, a very small minority have genuine actual gender dysphoria, which is a crippling, sometimes psychologically crippling condition where their mental impression of what gender they Are does not coincide with the physical reality of what gender they are. Sure. And such people, I would hope, deserve compassion and a listening ear. And how can I help? So here's an example. If I looked at two sides of this. The two sides are change the body, change the mind. Those are the two sides of it. The change the body people or change the social identification people think that the change the mind people are horrible hateful people. And the change the mind people think that they are horrible hateful people. What if we just assume for a moment that I'm a change the mind person. I think that scientifically, I think that we're seeing more and more evidence of this that that in no other way when someone's mind and their body don't agree do we change the body in no other time. This is the only exception to this. This doesn't seem right. And plus we're seeing the consequences of this ideology really having serious problems. So as a change the mind person, I have two things I think about. One, I want to deeply care for someone who's confused and who doesn't feel that congruence. They feel a dysphoria, they hate that. And I want them to not have that. My prayer would be that they become happy and or at least comfortable in the body what they were, they were born in. And I'm going to assume, number two is I'm going to assume a person who is saying maybe we should change the body or do whatever loves that person too and what's the best for them. Now I think they're dead wrong. But let me assume for a moment that they're doing it out of care.
- [54:55]
Lecrae
Sure.
- [54:58]
Abdu Murray
And then deal with the ideology itself as opposed to saying you're a horrible person. And that allow that comes from a worldview that says you are bathing in God's image, which means you are valuable. And I'm going to assume the value of even though if your ideas are bad ideas. So I don't want to eradicate those people. What I want to do is I want to talk about how do we actually find the solution together. Let's assume we love this person who's suffering and say let's hash out which which one is better. Yeah. The problem is, is that when we love our, our idea more than we love the person we're trying to help, we'll defend our idea more than we'll defend the person we're trying to help.
- [55:41]
Lecrae
That's interesting because I'm literally, my brain is thinking about NBA superstar Dwyane Wade. And how he has a son who is. I. I don't know if they're experiencing gender dysphoria or whatnot, but Dwayne is okay with his son being presented as a woman.
- [56:00]
Abdu Murray
Right.
- [56:01]
Lecrae
And there's a community of people who are mad at him, saying, like, you are an idiot. You are a terrible father. And not saying, oh, he cares about his child. And maybe his perspective on how he wants to change the body instead of the mind to your perspective from your example. So there's tension instead of care for each other. There's. There's. There's hatred for him for not being a good dad or there's hatred for people who think that he should. He's doing something wrong.
- [56:35]
Abdu Murray
Yeah.
- [56:36]
Lecrae
And.
- [56:37]
Abdu Murray
Yeah.
- [56:37]
Lecrae
And. And I see that in that example that you're. That you're bringing up.
- [56:40]
Abdu Murray
Yeah. And. And I don't know him, but I assume he loves his. Loves his child.
- [56:46]
Lecrae
Right.
- [56:47]
Abdu Murray
And I. I assume that he has. And this is why the ideology is so important, is divorcing the value of the ideology from the value of the people who the ideology is influencing is. I had a woman name on our show. Her name is Chloe Cole. Chloe Cole is a d. Transitioner. She came on and she talked about her story. She started. She started transitioning from female to male at age 14, I believe it was. And she'd say, I didn't hate being. I didn't. I didn't think I was a man. I just didn't like being a woman. And the reason was because she was developing and people were paying attention and she was uncomfortable by the attention they were being paid. She suddenly felt the sense of being physically weaker because the boys had leapt in their physical development. Strength and speed around the age of 12 or 14. That's what happens. You're sort of kind of equal. You know, an eight year old girl and an eight year old boy fight. It kind of is the same thing. But then 10 years old is different. And so she suddenly felt the distinction. Mm. Well, she'd expressed some discomfort with that. And a psychologist told her parents, if you don't help your daughter transition, she's gonna die. She's gonna kill herself. Wow. And her parents, because they love her, bought it. And she went through the physical transition up top. Never went through the hysterectomy and all that stuff, but took hormones, all that stuff. Thank God she didn't do the hysterectomy because irreparable damage would have happened then. And started doing that because her parents were. Who loved their child, were Scared into the. The grizzly, sort of. Would you rather game. You know, that game is, you know, would you rather. It's like, would you rather do this? Or it's like the game you played with your kids. Like, would you rather have super speed but only be able to go north, or would you rather be invisible when no one else is looking? You know that. Which one would you rather? Well, this game is dire. It's grizzly. It's like, would you have rather have a live son or a dead daughter? When you're a parent and you're faced with that and you're told by someone who in authority, this is the reality, you will do whatever it takes to keep your daughter alive, including believe things that are inherently just wrong. Yeah. So I'm going to assume that Dwyane Wade, for example, loves his child and wants that child to be happy. I don't think that's going to get them there. And I do think it's an obligation on every father or every mother to say, okay, I've been told this. Is that true? Yeah, I'm going to look into this. But there's that moment of desperation where you're told something and you're like, oh, my goodness, you panic. I get it. I'm a dad. I know how I would panic. But you have an obligation to go search out the truth. So I ultimately don't think this is going to be good for him. But I also understand if he's trying his best to. I'm going to assume the best and say he's trying his best to help his child, but ideology warps us sometimes. We have to be guarded against that. Yeah, yeah.
- [59:53]
Lecrae
So I'm thinking about your book, Fake id, and. And then I'm thinking about, like, even the idea that people are struggling with right now, with feeling like they'll be replaced by AI.
- [60:06]
Abdu Murray
Yeah, right.
- [60:07]
Lecrae
Like. Like people are like, oh, well, my job's going to be taken from me. I'm not going to have any worth out here. I don't. My ideas can be replicated or better ideas can come from AI. What is our value as human beings if artificial intelligence can do all the things that we can do?
- [60:27]
Abdu Murray
That is. That is the central issue in. In that I'm trying to tackle in the book. And that's why having that rootedness in the, I believe, objectively verifiable claim that we're made in God's image, I don't think it's just an idea that I hope is true. I think that actually you can Reason yourself towards it, and there's evidence for it. But it all comes down to the what do you see as a human being? Do you see human beings as the sum of their capabilities? Or do you see a human being as something inherently and transcendently worth that soul once again? Because if we're just this identity, and that identity is thin, it's depending on what have you done for me lately? What can you do for the culture? What can you do? These things like, can you produce a sonnet? Well, AI can produce a sonnet for you. Can you produce a hit album? I mean, Solomon Ray doesn't even exist. And yet number one on the downloads for a short time. Don't get me started on Solomon Ray. But that's an example where I think people are, and I think young people especially, are in the middle of the throes of an identity crisis. We're saying, if this soulless thing can do what I do. And those things were the things that I once thought made me distinctly human as opposed to a primate or, you know, some kind of a. Like an animal of some kind. Those are the things that elevate us above animals and this machine, how the soul can do it, does that mean that I don't have a soul? What do I need a soul for? If this thing can do it, what does that say about me? I think that is a central identity issue. I think people are. And that's why I think we're also getting people who are having these relationships with the chatbots, and those relationships are becoming romantic, and then they result in terrible things like the suicides that happen that are soul sets her. Killed himself in order to be with his AI chatbot. Then there's depression that comes in. People are reporting they're mourning the loss of a loved one when the AI software updates and it forgets something and its personality changes, like, where's my. You know, whatever she's gone, where she. She was never really there. But that's a real thing. We're identifying with machines. And so this is my central worry. My central worry is that we are mistaking output for creativity. It's not creative. AI does not create. AI generates. This is very different. As an artist, if I were to think about the lyrics of your songs, I would think to myself, there's a story behind every one of those. Word choice was agonized over cadence, the speed, the meter agonized over. It wasn't just an accident. It didn't just happen because your algorithm produces that kind of a thing. Now, I Do believe there's an inherent talent that I don't have and that no matter how much I practice, I will never get. That is God given. And that seems reductionistic, like, that's the machine part of you, and it's not the machine part of me. But that's a gift, and you were inspired. Something happened in your life. You saw something. Here's a good example. And this is not to toot your horn or anything, but there's a song that I play of yours, and it's the. It's about looking out the window on an airplane. Wheels up. Yeah. I love that song, man. And you can tell there's something about. I don't know the story behind it, but my imagination tells me you were probably on a plane and thought about this. You know, it captures the exact feeling. It captures it because you experienced it. AI will never experience what you experience to write that song. It can take a look at your catalog of songs, and it can duplicate something that sounds a lot like you. You can even sample your voice and come out with an album that would fraudulently represent itself as you. It'll never be you because it generates. It doesn't create. You created. It generates. Yeah. Whether it's paintings and images or whatever it is, because it doesn't get inspired. It doesn't look at a sunset and say, oh, my goodness, I've got to paint that. C.S. lewis. I won't pair. I won't quote it exactly, but he made this point. He said the lights and the lamps and the paintings in our. In. In our paintings are real representations of the light that shines in the world that gets us to be able to see those lamps and those lights that we can create in the first place. And so if we begin to think of generation of AI and it can create spreadsheets faster than you and read data faster than you and make reports and do your. Do your slide decks, we begin to think of output as the real thing. We got to remember the paintings of those lamps and those lights and those candles, as beautiful as they are, they are a simulation of the real. But what makes them so beautiful is that a human being made them. AI does it. It's not the same thing. So I do think there's an identity crisis. Yeah. But we need to make a fundamental distinction is that output and productivity is not what makes you human.
- [65:50]
Lecrae
That's good.
- [65:51]
Abdu Murray
It can't be. Yeah. I mean, what do we say then about someone with down syndrome? What do we say then with somebody who is in a coma or Someone who has a traumatic brain injury, they less human because they don't output. Rooting ourselves back in this imago day helps us to understand what does it mean to create as opposed to generate. I think that helps us in those areas.
- [66:17]
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- [68:20]
Lecrae
of a weird term, but in the concept of Imago Day, right? We all have infinite worth and value, right? Just because we're made in the image of God.
- [68:32]
Abdu Murray
Yeah, right.
- [68:36]
Lecrae
Would you say then for, I don't know, the Christian nationalist, so to speak, who says, like, hey, we've got to send bombs over into this nation because they're dangerous and, and they, I don't know, they create a problem for us to exist as a Christian nation. Is there should, like, is there a, I won't even say Christian nationalists, just a Christian in general who's okay with sending bombs over to another nation, a Muslim nation, so to speak, is there a responsibility, like, and I guess it would depend on where you land theologically, on what happens to the soul after death. But if you know you're sending missiles into a crowd of people who don't accept Jesus as their savior, what are the implications there? What should people be thinking through?
- [69:44]
Abdu Murray
Yeah, well, I mean, that question involves questions about just war theory and about pacifism, because there's Christians who are pacifists because they, they think about the, if, if we were to do violence even in the name of self defense or to defend the, the, the vulnerable, what happens to the person who doesn't believe in Jesus? And are we condemning them to, or consigning them to eternal Christless existence? There's a lot of things to be thinking about that I think the use of force in any way, shape or form. Let me just say this. Despite the fact that there have been theologians who have wrestled with just war theory from a Christian perspective because of the consequences or pacifism, the good news is that we've been wrestling with this. And the good news is we need to continue to wrestle with it as a broad theological thing so that it informs our, our, our granular decisions in our everyday lives, including whether or not we should engage in military offensives against certain nations, whether it's Iran or whatever it is, because there are consequences to this. Now, having said that, the reason why we have to wrestle with it as opposed to just have a blanket, we never, we should never do that kind of a thing. The reason why I think that there's nuance to this is when you talk to Iran, for example, because it's going on right now. There are Iranians who are super happy this is happening. And it's not because they get to rise to power now.
- [71:18]
Lecrae
Right?
- [71:20]
Abdu Murray
It's because they have felt powerless forever and they have wanted, even if they would identify as Muslim. And this is something else people don't really realize. A lot of Iranians, I wouldn't say, I don't know if it's most, but a ton of Iranians are Muslim. Because they have to be, not because they want to be. And so they're looking for. They're inherently religious people. They're very. Iranians are incredibly spiritual people. And so there's a connection that they can have. They want to have to God, but they don't want it enforced on them. So because of the way the regime has acted for them, they're like, we're actually glad this is happening. And you're seeing Iranian voices at the protest against the war who are Iranians saying we're in favor of it. So I look at that and I say, well, do you have, Is there a, I don't know how to say this, a benefit, whether it's a good decision or bad decision, Is there a benefit that God is using in the middle of maybe even whether it's a good decision or a bad decision for those folks? So there's nuance that has to happen with regard to that. I don't know enough. Me personally know enough about the threat situation to say they're an imminent threat. Sure, okay. And I have an obligation to know more, and I probably should, and lots of folks should. But I personally believe in the idea of the use of force for self defense and for the defense of the vulnerable. Whether or not America should be doing it or not, that's a thing we should be debating. And that's the beauty of it, is that we can actually disagree on this and we recognize this has got serious consequences. But we should, and especially Christians shouldn't just have lockstep opinions. It shouldn't just be, my guy said so. Therefore I agree with that person, whoever my person happens to be, that's. We have an obligation to. The opposite is to really think these things through and say, is that the right decision? Nuance is really important in these situations. Definitely. But there's consequences of these things. And without going on too much of a tangent example, is our decisions have to be rooted. I guess this is my real answer to your question. Yeah. Our decisions have to be rooted in the value of the human beings who will be directly affected. And if those things don't haunt us, and this is something I do not envy of our leaders is that they make decisions that I hope haunt them for the rest of their lives. Even the good ones, even the right ones. Even when they're proud of the decision, they recognize in a messy world there are consequences they wish they could avoid but couldn't. Which means we have to inject human discernment and I would dare say spirituality in every, every decision we Make. So when the Iran conflict started, the we started a thousand targets using the Maven SMART system created by Palantir. Palantir is an AI company and Palantir uses Claude Anthropics AI as its AI engine. Well, it selected a bunch of targets very quickly, very expediently, very efficiently. One of those targets was this girl, the girls school in Manab. Because the, the, the Department of Defense didn't update the data. That school was once a part of a military complex 10 years ago, but then got walled off and it's now a girls school. And the AI selected it as a target without knowing the change because no one had bothered to change it. But for the sake of expediency and efficiency and because we relied and trusted this thing to be objective, we didn't double check. And hundreds of girls died and they shouldn't have. And the irony there is that the regime has been oppressing girls.
- [75:20]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [75:21]
Abdu Murray
And then they lost their lives at the school.
- [75:25]
Lecrae
It's messy.
- [75:26]
Abdu Murray
It's messy. And we can't abdicate. My point is we can't abdicate our moral decision making. No matter how efficient. No matter how whatever. We can't abdicate that to the machine. That's good. It's gotta be a human decision every time. We can use the machines to help us determine data, but don't rely on it. Double check it.
- [75:49]
Lecrae
Yeah, you know, yeah, that's really good, man. I am eternally grateful for your vantage point, your perspectives. I think, you know, for those of us who wrestle with nuance, having people like yourself, who are qualified researchers to help us navigate, that is a blessing, you know, it's extremely beneficial. Abdul, man, thank you. This has been an honor and a privilege and a pleasure. My wheels are just consistently turning and I think, man, you know, hopefully everyone goes down to support. You have at least five books. Yeah, so go get all of his books, including the newest one, fake id and man, you know, where else can they find you?
- [76:39]
Abdu Murray
Yeah, so our website isembrace the truth dot org. We got lots of articles, lots of video, lots of links to various things and of course our YouTube channel, Abdu Murray Official and all the. The usual Twitter, Instagram, etc. On Instagram though, you have to Type in Abdu Murray 1, 2, otherwise you'll get my cousin.
- [77:03]
Lecrae
Love it. Thank you again, brother. We appreciate you, man.
- [77:06]
Abdu Murray
My pleasure.
- [77:06]
Lecrae
Oh, man, this is the deep end with Lecrae.