← The Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Show
The Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Show
Why Strength Beats Cardio After 50: Muscle, Longevity & Bone Density - Lisa Smith-Batchen
01:23:19
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- [00:00]
A
The longevity of running. You have to start when you're young or by the time you are my age, it's hard to catch up.
- [00:11]
B
You aren't just any ultra runner. You are a first American female runner in multiple races. That makes you incredibly unusual. How do you begin to think about putting together both new nutrition and training for them? Who's just starting out?
- [00:34]
A
You have everything in your power to try your best to get to the starting line, you know, and getting to the starting line is half the battle along with your nutrition and strength and everything else that goes with it.
- [00:46]
B
All this information that was being said, for example, reduce your protein intake. That may be okay if you're younger, but if a 60 year old is hearing reduce your protein intake, the magnitude of effect that will change the trajectory of their life.
- [01:01]
A
Protein is my main source and I am concerned about youth with all carbs. All carbs. You know, back to running hundreds with only carbs and you know, that never worked for me.
- [01:16]
B
Your 66th birthday is approaching, which you may or may not be excited about. But what are some of the things that you've seen change with age?
- [01:23]
A
Oh boy, that is such a great question. It was humbling to realize that I.
- [01:37]
B
Friends, I wanted to personally let you know that our next four week Forever Strong Foundations challenge begins in July. This is back because you asked for it. This challenge is built around the same evidence based principled nutrition and training you've come to expect from us. Along with. I'm very excited. Updated content designed to help you build and preserve the one organ system, that one system that matters most for longevity, which is skeletal muscle. We'll also be hosting live events throughout the challenge, including conversations with me, members of my nutrition team and trusted fitness professionals who will help answer your questions and support your progress. What excites me most is not just the information, it's the community. Every challenge brings together people who are committed to taking ownership of their health, raising their standards and investing in their future. Now I look forward to working alongside you as we continue to build a stronger, healthier and more resilient community. Because man, it is up to to you. And let's get to work. Lisa Smith Batchen, welcome to the show.
- [02:56]
A
Thank you for having me.
- [02:58]
B
I'm going to read your bio and it is one that I've never read before. Are you ready? Lisa Smith Bachen, one of the most decorated ultra endurance athletes in American history. First American female to win the marathon Desks Sables which is a 150 mile stage race through the Sahara. Two time winner and 10 time finisher of the Badwater ultramarathon. And this I think has become very famous. It's 135 miles through death Valley. This is the one that Goggins talks about. First female to complete the Badwater quad, which is 584 miles. First and only person to run 50 miles in all 50 states. In 62 days, you raised over a million dollars for orphans and clean water projects. You've been featured in Born to Run, which myself and my team were just talking about that book. And as a coach, you've trained athletes from first timers, which, by the way, you did give me a little pep talk about how I should begin to think and set my sights to ultra race and also elite ultra competitors. And you've been doing this for 40 plus years. You're known for your fusion of physical discipline, spiritual grounding and a fearless pursuit of purpose.
- [04:24]
A
Wow. Thank you.
- [04:26]
B
You and I were talking about being able to express the things that you've done. And by nature you are a very humble human. And as we sit here in this conversation, you aren't just any ultra runner. You are a first American female runner in multiple races. And in fact, your 66th birthday is approaching, which you may or may not be excited about. But you know, when I asked you when your last ultra race was, it was February. That makes you incredibly unusual.
- [05:03]
A
I didn't realize it.
- [05:05]
B
Well, I don't know anyone else that is, is it motivated? Is it the idea and the challenge of doing something hard? And I would even say at the time that you started this, you couldn't go on the Internet and look up Badwater, who was running it? Female training of female. Other female endurance athletes. I mean, you were doing it before. It was really being thought about.
- [05:34]
A
Very true. There weren't many of us, you know, there weren't many of us. And it really just sort of fell into my lap. So when, you know, you think about trailblazing, you know, I have to look back and think, yeah, maybe I did. I guess I did, you know, myself and a few others. There are some others and some are still doing it and others aren't. And mine really just comes because I still love to do it. I don't love to race anymore. Like, I've taken the word race out of, like, I want to beat you, I want to win. I've taken that out of my, you know, line of vocabulary or my feelings of purpose has just turned into I still love to participate, you know, and I don't care if I'm Last. Because man, you learn either way.
- [06:22]
B
I love that you don't care if you're first or last. But it's really about the learning.
- [06:27]
A
The learning, continual learning, always gaining wisdom.
- [06:31]
B
How did you decide to start running ultras?
- [06:35]
A
I decided to start. I got invited to do the first Eco Challenge, which was in Utah. That's a multi day adventure race. That was in 1995. And before that I was doing Ironman races and, you know, marathons and all kinds of.
- [06:53]
B
Also equally crazy.
- [06:55]
A
It's equally crazy. I mean, my first race started with a 5K and I just kind of went on and on and on and you know, there's more that you can do. And I met a good friend of mine, Marshall Ulrich, who really is one of the legendary ultra marathoners and has done the Seven Summits and all that, met him at the first Eco Challenge. We ended up on a team together called Team Stray Dogs. And he said to me after, you really need to do Badwater. And I said, what is a badwater? And he told me it was 135 mile foot race through Death Valley in July. The hottest I believe I've been out there was maybe 125, 125. But at that time in 1995, I'd never heard of anybody running anything over a marathon. That was in April, July. I found myself at the starting line of the Badwater 135. You know, asking Marshall, like, how do you train for this? What kind of food do you eat? What do you, you know, I'll just wear a few extra clothes to get used to the heat and, you know, jelly beans and red Gatorade. Like there was not everything that we have today as far as nutrition and shoes and. And I really learned that I was ready to kill my friend Marshall Ulrich when I got out there and felt that heat. Because there was nothing to prepare you for it besides somebody else who'd already done it.
- [08:23]
B
You're at the starting line, you're thinking, okay, I've done how many? What was the longest race you had done in mileage prior?
- [08:31]
A
The longest race I'd done was that Eco Challenge. It was over 300 miles, but that was being in a canoe and climbing and mountain biking and all kinds of stuff. The longest I'd done as a runner at the time was a marathon.
- [08:47]
B
A marathon is 26 miles, correct? 26. So you went from 26 miles to 130 miles. 135 miles, yeah. That seems like a big jump.
- [08:58]
A
It was a big jump. It was a Big jump.
- [09:01]
B
It seems like a big jump when you were doing the marathon, 26 miles, you know, my husband is really into marathons, and he was supposed to be studying for his board, so he ran a 50. 50 doesn't compare to 135. But he did tell me something interesting. He said the reason he chose to do it is he gets to tap on that pain cave. And that by entering this pain cave, there is a moment or a period of time where there is nothing else.
- [09:34]
A
Very true, Very true.
- [09:36]
B
How has that. Do you experience that in the same way?
- [09:41]
A
I believe it's different for everybody and it shows up differently for everybody. I never quite felt that pain cave in a marathon. Like, I think it's in a marathon, there's so many people, you know, and there's aid stations every mile where it's just so much shorter and more focused. In ultra running, you're going a whole lot further where you're really tapping into the spiritual side of yourself, the physical and the mental side of yourself. That really gets put into question of how you're going to handle what you do. Sure, many people can experience that in a marathon, but that didn't really ever happen to me. The longer I went, the more the pain cave. And it wasn't so much the pain cave. It's more you're in pain or. Or you're hurting. People always use the word suffering, which I don't use the word I'm not suffering because it's by choice. People who really suffer don't choose to suffer. I think that you're in pain, your feet hurt, you know, something hurts and it shifts around that pain. But the learning, the growth, the wisdom that comes with all of that, the further you go, the longer you go, the more you learn.
- [11:10]
B
Is there a cadence for what one could expect? And I know that it's different for everybody, but I imagine there's similar experiences. Yeah, I just imagine that potentially for you, it might be mile 100. For, I don't know, Goggins, it might be mile 75. But there's probably phases to the human response and challenges.
- [11:39]
A
Right. I think, you know, like you said, your husband Wyatt, he wanted to do a 50 was to get into that pain cave. So he actually probably found where he got comfortable with that pain cave and it kept its shifts. And I think for some people it might be mile 60, mile 70, 100. But I feel like those of us who do these endurance events know we're going to get there. We look forward to getting there, which is a Little kooky, right. We look forward to getting there and you can maybe bring it on. Like you can bring on this mental, spiritual part of yourself and it feels like it's a really good place to be. It's like being in this box of just repetitive motion where your mind is somewhere else.
- [12:34]
B
That first race, do you remember the first one?
- [12:36]
A
I do really well.
- [12:39]
B
Do you remember what you learned, boy?
- [12:42]
A
I learned that first of all, you probably shouldn't jump from a Marathon to 135 miles.
- [12:48]
B
That seems reasonable.
- [12:49]
A
As a coach, I would not recommend that to you.
- [12:52]
B
That seems very reasonable.
- [12:53]
A
Seems very reasonable. And now, you know, things have changed. You can't just enter the Badwater 135. You have to qualify to get in this year. You have to have run 400 mile races beforehand to get in. So I would say back in the day when I first started, that wasn't the case.
- [13:11]
B
Is that for a safety perspective that you have to run because the, the Bad waters only won 135 miles.
- [13:17]
A
Correct.
- [13:17]
B
But you have to run 400 in
- [13:19]
A
totality or in totality within a certain period of time. And I'm sure every year it'll keep getting, you know, you'll. Your qualifications have to be more and more to get in because it's become that popular. Ultra running, like most running events, are exploding. So more and more people are doing the event. And the Badwater race, officially only 100 people can be chosen.
- [13:48]
B
What was that like?
- [13:50]
A
Exciting. You know, honestly, I had no idea what I was truly getting myself into. When you think like I didn't drive the course, when you think of 135 miles, it's inconceivable to think of when you only gone 26.2 miles. So there was a lot of unknown and it was the unknown that I was drawn to. I was drawn to the unknown of climbing the first climb, which is, you know, 10 miles uphill, then downhill and then back uphill and then downhill and literally the finish is 13 miles uphill. So you're going from minus 282ft below sea level to over 8,000ft up and down, up and down. So the, the challenge of the altitude, the change of weather, the heat, all of that was so unknown to me because I only knew what somebody told me their experience was.
- [14:51]
B
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- [16:22]
A
I did not. I set a goal to finish.
- [16:26]
B
How long did it take you?
- [16:28]
A
To be honest with you, I'm not quite sure I'm correct on this. I don't really remember, but I think it was 42 hours.
- [16:35]
B
42 hours because you did actually you did it 10 times. I did after the first one. You know, you said that you were looking forward to the unknown. You know, as I think about that right now in society, what I see is that people actually shy away from challenge. But for some reason you were drawn to it.
- [16:57]
A
I think challenge is such a huge part of life. Whether it's physical challenge, spiritual, mental, challenging yourself to improve. You know, for myself, I did it 10 times because I yearned to go back to the challenge to challenge myself differently, to see if I could do it differently, or to go back to experience the way I was feeling at that time because it's such a journey into the unknown. I mean the desert doesn't. You're not going to beat the desert, the elements of the desert. But there is a way to move through it differently.
- [17:42]
B
Were you ever disappointed in how you did it?
- [17:47]
A
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean you just don't know. There's more known now because of the evolution of nutrition, hydration, shoes, clothing, salt, sodium, all of those things that were so unknown, we'll say back in the day in 1995, the first time I did it to this year, people stepping up to the starting line in July, there's a whole different level of known that we didn't. That I didn't know. So I was stepping into the unknown of hydrate, you know, all of those things that are put out there now, which is great. This is why people are going faster, further. You know, there's so much more information out there.
- [18:36]
B
And would you say that that lack of information when you started created more suffering?
- [18:42]
A
Yeah. And again, I don't like the word suffering. It's just different. I think of people suffering that are really sick or so suffering. I think that it brought a lot more lack of knowledge, you know, just lack of being able to feel great. Like, you know, they'll say to get ready in a marathon at mile 22 or mile 20, you're gonna hit the wall. You know, I mean, there is no wall. There's not a wall in a marathon. You're not hitting a wall. What happens, the same thing is in an ultra is that your nutrition and your hydration in your training is not up to speed for you. So they're like, people aren't bonking as much anymore.
- [19:28]
B
Explain to me what the idea of bonking is or how people experience it.
- [19:34]
A
Well, I do feel like people are experiencing it because the races are filling up super, super fast. Right. And there's a lot of people doing these things without knowledge. Maybe back like I was back in the day when I first started, because there is. And they're not looking for the knowledge. They're just signing up because it's exploding and everybody else is doing it. I see more people getting hurt, more people doing way too much and not recovering, which is a big deal, you know, as we age. But the bonking is like, you've either not trained, you started the race out too fast, you're not staying hydrated, you're not getting the sodium that you need or the calories. All of that is very known now of how can you take care of yourself?
- [20:29]
B
It's physical. What I'm hearing you say is that there's a physical limitation versus a mental limitation. When you were at that first race, it didn't matter. You didn't really, really think about the idea that you were one of only two women doing it. Is that correct? It was just, I'm here to run.
- [20:48]
A
Exactly. Yes. I didn't even think that I was one of the few. Like, it didn't cross my mind.
- [20:55]
B
And at the time, the sport ultra endurance wasn't. It wasn't popular at all in the 90s.
- [21:03]
A
No.
- [21:04]
B
From what I understand, how did you even think to train for something like that? Meaning, I mean, what I'm also hearing you say is that you weren't totally prepared, that you had trained the way that you did as a marathon runner and then stepped on the starting line of probably. It's, from what I understand, one of the hardest races that exists.
- [21:28]
A
Yes, for sure. Foot race. So, you know, there's races that are really hard, that are like, I would think I've been on a crew. Riding your bike across America, or there's things that last 10 days, 20 days that I would put in a harder division. But as far as, like a road race, 135 mile road race for an ultra bad water is definitely at the top of the list. As far as difficult.
- [21:57]
B
When did you prepare yourself before? Meaning you knew things were going to get really hard. Did you prepare yourself for the moments that you were going to try to talk yourself out of it?
- [22:14]
A
That's such a great question. I don't think you ever prepare yourself to talk yourself out of it. Or you can prepare yourself for when the bad moments are going to arrive because you prepare yourself for the best. You know, you prepare for, like, this is my A game, my A race. And you prepare and you prepare knowing that the wheels could fall off. And however, if the wheels fall off, what are you going to do about it? You know, a big sandstorm shows up or lightning storm and it's pouring rain or something like that, which does happen. And I asked my friend Marshall, what do you do? Because he's done this a few times before I did. What do you do if this happens? He goes, you keep going. You keep going. Because everybody else will get in their van and hunker down. You keep going. And I took that with me as you keep going. And that's where the adversity of the real you comes out. Going through the tough parts of it when the wind is blowing and knocking you over or the sandstorm is approaching, those are the elements that Death Valley will throw at you. So it's unknown. Like, you can't say mile 100. I know I'm going to feel terrible. You hope that you feel great and
- [23:40]
B
you coach other people.
- [23:41]
A
I do.
- [23:42]
B
To do this, yes. Can you tell who's going to make it versus who's not? Are there core attributes that exist within people? Because also before the camera turned on, you said everybody has an ability.
- [23:59]
A
I think that for Badwater in particularly, you really have to want to do it. And I'm glad that they have qualifying standards now that you have to do 100 miles, you know, four times in order to qualify to run the race because it's gotten really competitive and the faster you go, the harder it gets as well. So I do feel like there are. If you've run a 400 milers, you've proven that you're capable. If you've only run one, I need to see you do a little bit more. Only because all of the qualifications have changed. I mean it used to be you had 60 hours to finish, now it's moved to 48 hours. So you have to go faster. It's not about just, you can't just go there and say I'm just coming here to finish. You really have to go there to push yourself.
- [25:00]
B
It sounds simple, right? It sounds like, okay, well I'm going to go, I'm going to do this thing and I'm going to push myself. But there are probably really dark moments, I'm assuming where one has to anchor deeply into the why? Why am I choosing this thing to put myself through? Like you said, it's not a sacrifice, it's now a choice. How well thought out does someone need to be or how do you encourage people? Because my sense is that you coach people physically. But you and I both know that a coach isn't someone who is just teaching someone how to hydrate, teaching someone how to carb load, but they're teaching someone how to think and have a framework for thinking or at least leading them into that.
- [25:53]
A
Correct. You know, my way of coaching is very old school and I love to take the person through it, you know, to get there. And it all is so much about the training and heat training. It's not just about showing up like I did, just showing up and doing it. And it was not easy to just show up and do it. It was unbelievable what I learned. Like really. I mean I know people think I'm crazy but like connected to the other side of, you know, people who've passed on or just the beauty of the desert, the mountains, the heat, every bit of it just brings you to not only your lowest of lows but the highest of highs.
- [26:42]
B
Was there something. And I don't think anyone's going to think it's weird or woo woo. Because you're not the only person that has experienced that I think connection to that spiritual side. And that's exactly why it drove drives people to do this type of thing to put oneself and there's probably not that many moments that we can find to put, you know, to push a limit. So you said, for example, you're not really entering the pain cave, if you're doing a marathon, I mean, I don't know, because for myself, because I haven't done that. But I would say that when you're there and you say it opens kind of this spiritual connection, do you think it's because everything else has to be so silent, or is there a reason that it's that position that one finds themselves in?
- [27:39]
A
Boy, that's a great question. Again, I think that for myself personally, it's because I yearn for it, I'm looking for it, and I'm seeking it. And I think for many people, whether you're seeking it or not, it appears. It appears when you're exhausted, you're sleep deprived, and you're in a place of being very vulnerable, that it shows up whether you want it to or not. And I think a lot of that is why people go back. I know it's part of why I go back, because I cannot wait to experience that.
- [28:20]
B
It's such an interesting mindset. And I just. I wonder, is part of that a genetic capacity to be able to experience pain and discomfort and find something positive or just be open to the connections versus the other way, which is pain and more pain. And this sucks. And I'm ready to quit. And then, of course, there are many people that quit.
- [28:49]
A
Yeah, for sure.
- [28:51]
B
Can what you were talking about be trained in an individual?
- [28:55]
A
I believe it can be taught. It can be taught, but you have to be willing. You have to be willing to want to go there. Like teaching somebody how to meditate. It's. You become still. You become still with movement. You become in a meditative state. For myself, it's like where all the worries of the world are gone or where you write your book, because you're this meditative state of mind. And I think that you can explain it to people. Your experience, and I hear so many other people's experience at the same time. But I think where we can be taught, because we're all students, I can explain it to my students and they can look out for it, and then they can come back and share their experience with me.
- [29:50]
B
What are some of the biggest lessons that you have taken forward in your life?
- [29:57]
A
I've taken forward that when we are in pain, when we do want to quit or stop something, that you take a time out. Take a time out and go back to your why. Go back to your purpose. Like, I believe that purpose and passion and passion and purpose all bring us to our why? Why do I want to do this? And I ask my students that all the time. Why do you want to run the bad water 135? Why do you want to run whatever it might be? Because I think when you have your why, it helps your passion and your purpose move forward.
- [30:41]
B
Have you heard whys where you're like, no, that's not gonna.
- [30:44]
A
I have. Absolutely.
- [30:46]
B
Can you give me an example, a reason why?
- [30:49]
A
Well, because you did it. You know you did it. Well, just because I've done it doesn't mean that you should do it. You know, you need to figure out why you want to do it. That has nothing to do with me. That your why is all about you finding your sense of purpose with that passion, which you did.
- [31:10]
B
You ran all through 50 states.
- [31:15]
A
It was called Run Hope Through America.
- [31:17]
B
Did that push you?
- [31:19]
A
Absolutely.
- [31:21]
B
Was that easier because you were running for someone else and something else?
- [31:24]
A
It's always easier for me personally, when I'm doing it for something greater than myself, because it brings me back to my why. My why is to use my gifts and talents like you do, to help other people and that it isn't all about me and that I feel really good about what I'm doing and the time I'm spending to do it knowing I'm helping other people. And for me, that's love. That's just love of life. And what my why?
- [32:01]
B
You were what I would consider obviously an early adopter in the 90s. Again, first of all, Ultra wasn't a thing. And also, women weren't really running this. Was there something that drew you to it where you said, okay, I'm going to do this because this is what I need to do to come out on the other side? Meaning were you working? You know, you hear Goggins talk about how he was working through, so. And I know that your friends that he was working through something or perhaps trying to solve something.
- [32:41]
A
Absolutely. I think there's such a similar trait there. I definitely got into the world of endurance. I was running away. You know, I would say I was running away from childhood issues or things that had happened. We all have past in our lives. And I used running to cope. It was my coping mechanism. And then I actually found out that I was good at it, you know, good for then. Back then, I was winning races all the time. I'd run one on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and I'd win them. But it never made me happy. Winning never made me happy. That wasn't what I was really yearning for. What made me happy was when I met my good friend, Sister Mary Beth Lloyd, who said, what are you running from? And I said, that's a good question that I never really looked at. And she goes, why don't you help me? And I said, well, how am I going to help you? And she was the mission director for. And she still is a mission director who lives. She lives in rome, and she's 75, and she still runs well. She's the one who started all of the water projects, homes for children in Ethiopia, Eritrea, Brazil, India. So my helping her meant raising money.
- [34:04]
B
I see.
- [34:05]
A
Helping to raise money, which I did and we did. And that brought my why into such passion and purpose.
- [34:15]
B
The idea that it wasn't about winning. I didn't even consider that because most people are entering. I mean, that's probably why they call it a race. I'm sure there's some Latin definition for race, but people go for this competitive spirit, I'm guessing. Again, I'm only speaking from what I've seen other patients experience and what I've seen people orient themselves to. But the idea that winning didn't make you happy, I think is unusual.
- [34:48]
A
I think it's unusual, too. I mean, I wouldn't say it didn't make me happy. It wasn't fulfilling. Okay. It was really like. You know, I remember the first marathon I did. I qualified for Boston Marathon, and as I'm running across the finish line, people are yelling, you're going to Boston. You're going to Boston. And I was like, what's a Boston? The same thing as I said, like, what's bad water? I had no idea about Boston Marathon. But then I found myself in the Boston Marathon. You know, I was. It was. I don't know. It was humbling to realize that I had a gift. I had a gift, and I was told by somebody else, you have a gift, My friend, Sister Mary Beth Lloyd. Why don't you use these gifts to help other people? That's what made me so happy and ecstatic. To see a clean water well get built. To see children eating food who were starving to death. Like, that brings me joy and brought me happy. And it still does. And that's. You know, I try to get the athletes I coach to think outside of the box of your why. Like, you can use this to help other people. And it doesn't have to be running. It can be if you play the piano or if you. Whatever your gifts and talents are, you can use them.
- [36:14]
B
That is what drives us as a team. It's a group effort.
- [36:20]
A
Mm.
- [36:21]
B
I mean, frankly, I love. This is my favorite part of the job, is Sitting down with people like you that do have so many gifts and are just so humble, because there is a plethora to learn. I learn every single time. And I think that as you're talking about your experience, which, the way that I view it, it actually wasn't about you. You didn't think. Whether you were male or female, you didn't think, well, I'm going in to win it. You went in to think, what do I learn from this? And then subsequently, how do I give back what is what I'm doing, contributing? And that is extraordinary and meaningful. And again, you are still running. You're 65. You're still running. That gift, that ability to run, do you think that that gift is a mental gift or a physical gift?
- [37:21]
A
Both very equal.
- [37:24]
B
I think it's awesome. And I also think that because you're such an early adopter, you find that other things are important from a physical perspective. So I've met many of your friends, your female friends, and there are more mature women closer to your age, and you've watched these women really focus on cardio. And you've said, ladies, listen, if you want to do what you're doing till you're nine, I think that the oldest person that you train is, what, 90?
- [37:53]
A
She just turned 94 this week.
- [37:55]
B
94. And I've heard you say, and teach your students that they have to lift weights and they have to do resistance training. And I'm sure that that has evolved as you've been in the sport. And I think part of probably that evolution has come from your own experience.
- [38:10]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's been a huge part of my life. I have three older brothers. I watch them with football and hockey and lifting weights. And, you know, it's been something that I've done probably my whole life, and it's something that I promote and preach. And I feel like being. I would rather be strong than fast. I would rather, you know, being strong helps me be able to go 100 miles. It's not running that helps me run 100 miles. It's being strong. I'm huge into cross training.
- [38:48]
B
Being strong is what you would choose over being fast.
- [38:53]
A
Absolutely.
- [38:53]
B
Because being strong helps you run fast.
- [38:57]
A
Yes.
- [38:58]
B
And just helps you run, as opposed to the idea of running simply helps you run.
- [39:03]
A
Right. It's not the running that helps me run, it's the being strong that helps me run.
- [39:09]
B
Thank you to one of the new sponsors of the show. If you are someone who is intentional about what you put in your body and how you use it this is something I've been experimenting with in a very specific and particular way. It's called Lucy and I use the 2 milligram nicotine gum. For me, it's not something I use passively, like I'm chewing bubble gum. I use it as a tool at specific times when I want to stay focused and locked in. The science here is actually quite compelling. Nicotine mimics acetylcholine and that's a primary neurotransmitter involved in learning and focus. There's data that can support that. It improves visual attention, working memory, motor processing speed, all of these things that I need. When I have lots of long writing sessions, travel days, high stakes projects, I need sustained attention. What I love is that Lucy is a tobacco free product. It's clear in its dosing you're isolating the compounds to leverage its potentially neuroprotective effects and neurotropic potential without all the junk. I recognize that this may have caught some of you by surprise. Why is she using nicotine? Was she a smoker?
- [40:22]
A
No.
- [40:23]
B
But I will say that for me, I wanted to look for something other than caffeine to help my memory, to help my focus. There is really good data about nicotine and brain function. They also have a nicotine pouch called breakers which have a small tiny capsule that you pop for an extra release of flavor. But for me, I keep coming me back to the gum. You might see me chewing gum all the time. It's simple, predictable, I love it. And if you are going to use nicotine, the key to using it is with intention. If you want to try for yourself, go to Lucy Co and use the promo code Dr. Lion for 20% off your first order. Also, Lucy has a 30 day return policy. That's Lucy, Lucy Co. And the code for 20% off is Dr. Wyan. Lucy Products are only for adults of legal age and every order is age verified. Now, the warning is this product contains nicotine and nicotine is an addictive chemical. Was there a moment where you had just an aha moment? Because again, probably you've been exposed to training, like you said, resistance training your whole life. But in the running space, people are running, they're not lifting weights. Because everything that I've heard over the years has been like, well, that's going to slow you down. If you have too much muscle, it's going to slow you down. Obviously things are evolving now. But when you started coaching people, did you get a ton of pushback? Especially from the women?
- [42:02]
A
Both.
- [42:03]
B
Both?
- [42:03]
A
Oh yeah. Men and Women with lifting weights. Yeah, I mean, being thin, you know, I'll do pushups or I'll do pull ups and I'll do some upper body weights, but I never want my legs tired, you know, And I'd be like, no, you have to do wall sits and squats and lunges in order to help your running. You know, the longevity of running. The longevity meaning 60, 70, 80. You have to start when you're young or by the time you are my age, it's hard to catch up. You know, your bone density, you like the growth of it. You know, I try to get my daughters who are in their 20s, they both are strong, they both lift weights because I have, they watched, you know, and they've learned. And I think that it's. It's been tough to get both men and women, believe it or not.
- [42:59]
B
Yeah, it's surprising. What are some of the myths that you heard or reasons as to why? So I heard you say that those that were running specific didn't want to put on masks because they didn't want their legs to feel fatigued.
- [43:12]
A
Correct.
- [43:13]
B
But I know that you coach a lot of people outside of endurance, but also just coach them. What are some of the myths that you hear, the reasons why they're going to get hurt?
- [43:27]
A
The weights are too heavy. They'll do very lightweights, high reps, 1 pound, 2 pound, 3 pound, 4 pound. But they're not going to lift heavy because mostly they're going to get hurt and they don't want to get big.
- [43:41]
B
I don't know about you, but I've been trying to get big for the last 20 years.
- [43:44]
A
I've been trying to get big too.
- [43:45]
B
I just think as we're talking about resistance training and lifting as an early adopter, because you were. Do you think that there's a moment and I'm gonna. I don't know exactly how to ask this, that the body just doesn't respond because everything that I'm seeing and everything that you've done means that the body can push itself beyond what you think is possible. I mean, the idea that you're going bad water, this was 130 degrees Fahrenheit. That means that if that was on asphalt, it would be hot enough to melt shoes.
- [44:19]
A
My shoes never melted, but some people's have.
- [44:22]
B
I mean, you're running in 130. I can't even be. I live in Texas. I'm complaining. When I walk down the block 135 miles on a surface that could melt the soles of My shoes, you know, And I just think over multiple days, I mean, you're 40 plus hours that. Is there a point at which the body just is, I'm good, I can't do anymore. Or have we not even found that point?
- [44:52]
A
We have not found that point. We have not found. We have nowhere near come to find what we're capable of. And I think that that's what I love the most about coaching, for sure. Or even myself. Like, I don't know what I'm capable of. Even at almost 66, I know I'm not going to go run a 35 minute 10k, but I can still do a 10k, you know, but I don't know how far I can go. I believe I can run further, but not as fast.
- [45:26]
B
With age, what are some of the things that you have seen slow down or I don't even want to enter it in that way. What are some of the things that you've seen change with age? Because I'm sure some things get better. For example, I'm assuming we all get wiser.
- [45:41]
A
Yeah, right.
- [45:42]
B
We have more experience. I mean, the 10th time you're doing bad water, you're a little bit older and you're more experienced, which means you're smarter.
- [45:50]
A
Correct. All of that changing with age. I think that it really is. You do slow down. Like you slow down, but then some people aren't slowing down. I think there's such a mindset of just how hard do I want to work? Do I want to work hard enough to win that race or do I want to work hard enough to participate in that race? You know, going fast, you have to do a lot of hard, fast work to get there. So I feel for myself personally and many other people, we slow down because the desire to train to go fast kind of diminishes. Been there, done that, been there, done that. But I can still challenge myself and I can still participate and be there in winning age groups or whatever it might be. But I think staying strong is the key to even being able to continue the sport.
- [46:54]
B
When you are training older women, their 60s, let's say 50s, 60s, and they've never trained before, do you ever think, man, they, they're missing this, this piece, that they have the opportunity because you started, I think you won one of your first races at 35.
- [47:14]
A
Yes.
- [47:15]
B
So you started earlier and that was in, in the 90s.
- [47:18]
A
Yep.
- [47:19]
B
People weren't even. Many people weren't challenging themselves in that way. And there's always a first person. Right? There's always A first woman or a first guy or the first. That's decades of having the opportunity to have the experience because you knew what was on the table. Someone comes to you and they're in their 60s or late 50s, and they say, you know, I've never done this. How can I find what's on the
- [47:49]
A
table for me, guiding them through experience, you know, sharing my experience, but also showing them facts and showing them other people that have just begun. You're not the only one who's just beginning. And it's becoming bigger and bigger and bigger and showing them the difference between lifting weights or being strong compared to not doing it at all. You know, bone density, there's. That's one of them. And aging, looking at posture and every bit of, from the tip of your toe to the top of your head is one big connection. And I think that many people that know me or that I met or trained say like, well, you're just a freak of nature. I'm like, no, I work really hard at it. You know, three, four days a week, I'm in the gym. Like, you have to do this if you want to do what I do. You, you have to do this if you want to do this. If you want to keep skiing until you're 80, 90, if you want to keep riding your bike or keep walking fast or running, this is what you need to do. And I'm not a freak of nature because I do it. And I think more and more now are coming along. And you're helping that a lot, by the way, for sure, of all ages. It needs to start when we're young. You know, I started when I was young because I had a good mentor. Watching my brothers, I had a good mentor. I started pulling tires and carrying backpacks and weights when I was young. More and more and more they're doing it. So obviously somewhere down the road, somebody was watching. And, you know, and to me, if you can help one person, you've made a huge difference because then that one person will help another person and another person and
- [49:49]
B
becomes a ripple effect, A ripple effect. That 50 year old, we'll just say that she's 50 is coming in, never trained before. How do you begin to think about putting together both nutrition and training for them who's just starting out?
- [50:05]
A
I think about asking, you know, sitting down, obviously, or having them keep a food journal to see what they do eat. I think when people write down, you know, this is what I've eaten for the last three days, and they're like, whoa, you know, they can actually see that's where changes can be made. Because I think it takes a realization of this is where you can make changes. And small, you know, small ones. But somebody who's never started lifting weights, start them light so they're not too sore, they don't feel defeated that the weights are too heavy. But encouraging to keep building, you know, keep adding more weight and adding more weight. And that's very difficult to get people over 50, I'm going to say 60, I mean, but I have 70, 80, you know, in there I've got an 85 year old who's doing farmer carries with two 30 pound kettlebells. We started with five pound weights. But it's really helping somebody believe that they can and believing that they are capable of so much more. And what do you have to lose by trying? You have, you're losing by not trying.
- [51:21]
B
I absolutely agree with you. When you think about designing a program, because you do design programs for people, what does it look like from a movement perspective? And here's what I mean. Oftentimes if someone is starting out, we know that machines are safe. Even if in the training and athletic world, people say, oh, don't use machines, you need to do functional movements, again, whatever that means. How do you begin to think about. And let's say, let's assume this person has access to everything. So they have access to a gym, you, they have access to kettlebells. How do you start putting together patterns of movement for them?
- [52:03]
A
Well, it's uniquely different for each person. Obviously we're all uniquely different based on age, size, goals. But I try to get people to learn how to use the equipment. First of all, say I'm coaching somebody who lives in Houston, Texas and I'm in Wyoming. There's always somebody in the gym who, who can take you around and show you how to use the equipment. Most important, form. I'm a form fanatic. I think that form keeps you injury free and will help you move forward with getting stronger. So always finding somebody who is willing to show you how to use the machine.
- [52:42]
B
Do you always have someone start with a squat or is it a leg extension? Are there particular movements or body parts that you want to have? Everyone be doing squats 100%.
- [52:54]
A
Sit to stand, sit to stand, sit to stand. You've got to. When I'm teaching classes, which I do, squats are so crucial to longevity of life. In my opinion. I just think you're sitting in a car, you sit in the bathroom, you have to sit on a soft sofa and you watch people get up and they can't.
- [53:16]
B
And so that is the non negotiable first.
- [53:18]
A
Non negotiable.
- [53:19]
B
You teach them the squat so that they can sit to stand.
- [53:22]
A
Absolutely. Number one, what's next? Wall sits. Lunges, Push ups. Push ups. Being able to get yourself off the ground, whether you're 20 or 80, if you somehow land on the ground doing a push up to help get yourself up.
- [53:42]
B
And was there something that happened along your career that made you reorient yourself to this? Because this is. It's really wise again, you know, I trained in geriatrics, and when people are young and healthy, they're not thinking about pushing off the floor, they're not thinking about sit to stand, they're not thinking about how long it's going to take them. Because you and I have both seen people try to get up out of the chair. And, you know, it's heartbreaking.
- [54:10]
A
It's heartbreaking.
- [54:11]
B
But most people aren't necessarily thinking about the end point and the movements at the end point that people need to get to.
- [54:19]
A
I think the end point should be taught at a young age so that you're not getting to the end point. Your end point is when you're very, very old. You know, in that you've actually trained yourself your whole life, because it is about life and longevity is life. And it starts young. We don't. You don't have to start when you're 80, but if you're starting when you're 80, that's where we start. You.
- [54:45]
B
Even if someone is. Would you say even if someone Is in their 20s, you want to see them squat well, wall sit well, absolutely. These are. Okay, these are the foundations.
- [54:55]
A
These are the foundations. And you asked. And I'll go back to what you asked, how my dad started shuffling his feet. And it drove me crazy. And I'd say, dad, pick your feet up, pick your feet up. You know you're going to fall. And he was afraid he was going to fall. So the reason he was shuffling his feet was because he was afraid he was going to fall. Well, he did fall and he broke his hip and that was the end of his life. He died because of that. So this was 12 years ago. I have been on a mission with all of my aging athletes to pick your feet up. Like, the minute you start shuffling, that's it. You fall, you're going to break something. You know, you're lucky if you don't. So if you do fall, you have to get yourself up off the ground. And these things need to be taught young. Like, if you're running, you're picking your feet up, and you watch people, how they move and pick their feet up. But picking your feet up really stems from your core. It stems from your upper body, too. So you can't just think. Picking my feet up requires picking my feet up. I have to be strong to be able to continue to pick my feet up. And that fear is so real with aging athletes, aging people, that I'm going to fall, so I'm going to shuffle my feet, but they do it without even thinking about it, and that's when they do fall.
- [56:31]
B
Well, I'm sorry that that happened. It's heartbreaking.
- [56:35]
A
It was heartbreaking. It was very tough.
- [56:37]
B
And it must be also tough for you to see. I don't know if you're really on social media looking at it, but you'll hear all these things like, oh, falling is not that big of a deal. And people are falling, but they're not really dying from falling. And you're just thinking, what. What world are you in that you don't think that that's happening?
- [56:59]
A
Or they're never getting up, they're going to get a new hip, or they're. And their rehab and they are never. Their quality of life is so diminished.
- [57:09]
B
It is such a different. I, again, I worked in geriatrics, and part of geriatrics is palliative care. And, you know, from an epidemiology standpoint, we just see numbers. Oh, 150,000 people will fall. And, you know, and in my mind, and I'm sure in your mind, that means nothing. We don't know how many are unreported. People don't know that. What happens after the fall and how devastating it is and the time beforehand, the idea that we have to get strong and stay strong is everything.
- [57:44]
A
Absolutely.
- [57:45]
B
The cardiovascular activity is important.
- [57:48]
A
It's an addition.
- [57:49]
B
But the foundation is strength. And I'll just tell you a quick story. So when I finished fellowship, I did my fellowship at WashU, and I had done a fellowship in nutritional sciences and geriatrics. I hadn't really been on social media before. I mean, who's got time? You're working a lot of hours, and then with the hours that you're not working, you're studying so that you can be a better doctor. And I go on social media, and there's all this nonsense out there. People that are not. They don't have the experience necessary to then inform the public in a way that I think is some, you know, correct. And Honorable and right in many ways. You know what I mean? That it's important if it's your opinion and what experience an individual has versus what the science says and what we know from good data. Where I'm going with this is that I realized that all this information that was being said, for example, reduce your protein intake. So you hear this information that may be okay if you're younger and might not be important if you're younger, but if a 60 year old is hearing reduce your protein intake or if a 65 year old is hearing red meat is bad for you, or that strength training isn't important, the magnitude of effect on those individuals or that those people should be fasting, the negative effect and the inability to then recover, say that muscle that will change the trajectory of their life.
- [59:27]
A
Agree.
- [59:28]
B
And that's why we need to have people like you talking and that's why, why we need to have the podcast so that there is a form of education that has a conversation around it to really be able to experience what happens if the negative happens.
- [59:49]
A
True. And I've, you know, and I see it, I see it, you know, I've saw it in my own family and it was devastating. Where, you know, I wish. I hope everybody listens to your podcast and reads your books and I'm so excited for what you are doing and your mission out there because that's how I've lived my life and that's my philosophy and I'm just me trying to get it out there. But I'm so grateful to you who is getting it out there. And kids are listening, my children are listening. They're following you. And the ripple effect is what it's all about, you know, and one person might hear what I have to say. Mine comes from so much experience, trial and error, but I'm definitely here to tell you that protein is my main source. And I am concerned about youth with all carbs. All carbs. You know, back to running hundreds with only carbs. And you know, that never worked for me. It just didn't. And I'm a real food person, you know, in hundreds. I eat avocados, I eat string cheese. You know, like real food is the way to go. You have to try, you have to try to find out what's going to work for you.
- [61:16]
B
When you are starting to work with someone, they do a food guide, write down their food. I'm sure in your mind you're thinking, okay, this person needs to have at least 100 grams of protein and how they're going to do it. Have you seen changes over time? Meaning what people come to you with?
- [61:36]
A
Absolutely.
- [61:37]
B
And then the change that they get.
- [61:39]
A
Yes. I mean a lot of people, cookies and candy and chips and they don't realize what they're eating until they actually write it down. You know, you, you. And then you see it like, well, can you replace those cookies with an apple or can you replace that with some cottage cheese or something like that? You know, there's vegan and vegetarian and there's so many different ways of eating now more than ever. You know, people who are on keto and only eating, you know, protein. I think that trying to get people into the mindset where you are leading, which is great, the more protein, but really just paying attention to yourself, you know, there has to be something with size of a person, the weight of a person, you know, all that. So I, I do look at that with different people. But getting people to change is tough. They have to want to. And I always go back to if you don't try, you never know, so why not try? Because this way you'll find out and
- [62:47]
B
hopefully try quickly and then pivot.
- [62:49]
A
Yeah.
- [62:50]
B
What is necessary if you think about someone who is doing endurance? And I'm always curious because that's its own beast, right? You hear people fueling from jelly beans like you said, and Gatorade versus. We had Zach Bitter on the show last year and he was talking about how he was mostly, I mean, he's a low carb athlete, which is crazy. And then I see my husband's cereal stash. Yes, Shane, I found it. And yes, it's now in the garbage. How do we formulate kind of a game plan as someone is listening to this and they're thinking, okay, well, you know, I'm not quite ready to run a ultra, but maybe I'll start with a marathon, something to that nature.
- [63:35]
A
Even a mile. Yeah, you know, you've got to start with something. Get off the couch, get. You've got to start with something.
- [63:41]
B
But from a nutrition standpoint, but even
- [63:43]
A
for a mile, your nutrition, it all goes hand in hand. Physical exercise, being strong, it all goes hand in hand. If you're going to try to get strong or you're going to try to run a mile or a 5k or a marathon, put it all together at once. Don't, don't wait. Like, what are you waiting for? You know, you can say, oh, next Monday I'm going to start. And then Monday comes and you wait till next Monday. Well, soon it's 20 years of Mondays and you've been saying every Monday, every Monday. I mean, you have everything in your power to start today. Like quit postponing.
- [64:19]
B
I like that.
- [64:20]
A
Give it. I mean, what are you waiting for? Find your why? I want to feel better. I want to be, be stronger. I want to live a long, healthy, thriving life. I don't want to be sitting in the chair barely able to get up. These are personal choices. So why not take a choice?
- [64:38]
B
So you're saying strength is responsibility.
- [64:40]
A
Absolutely.
- [64:41]
B
And it's a choice.
- [64:42]
A
People take better care of their cars than they do their body. You can trade in your car, you get one body. It is up to you. It is so up to you. You could tell me, I can tell you. But you just have to make the choice and do it.
- [64:58]
B
Fun fact. I have been using Kettle and Fire, one of the new sponsors of the show for years. Their bone broth has been a staple in my kitchen when I was pregnant with my first child. And as a physician, I'm always thinking about the quality of the foods that I consume, that we consume. But aside from bone broth, what are we cooking with? And I spend a lot of time trying to secure ingredients. But fat is something that I cook with every day. And one reason I appreciate brands like Calon Fire is that their tallow, they have 100% grass fed and grass finished beef tallow. It has one ingredient, no additives, no preservatives, just traditional cooking fat. And it works beautifully with higher heat cooking, roasting, building flavor. And their bone broth, for example, I appreciate products that simplify healthy choices, making it easy to make good choices. It doesn't have to over complicate things. And for a limited time you can go to kettleandfire.com drlion and use the code DRLION for 25 off site wide. I love their bone broth and their beef Tallow. That's kettleandfire.com doctorlion code doctorlion do you find that there's a formula, for example, we know, and this is just the numbers that if someone is training at a certain heart rate, let's say 120 beats per minute, that their carbohydrate use will be between 40 and 70 grams per hour. Are there calculations that you think about or do you send that to someone else or do you go, okay, so roughly that this hour, this race is going to take 10 hours. Your target carbohydrate is around 500. Is, are there formulas that for each person?
- [66:51]
A
There is. I mean I try to go more on calories, my calories 80% is protein. But say in training or in an event. I definitely calculate.
- [67:01]
B
Yes. During events.
- [67:03]
A
During events I calculate. And I get 200 calories an hour, 250 at the most. Which I've learned. That's all I can tolerate.
- [67:14]
B
Because you'll get GI side effects or
- [67:17]
A
bloating or just not feel well. Too full. But less than 200. I feel awful. And when you feel awful is when you really need to get the calories.
- [67:28]
B
2. Do you care where the calories come from?
- [67:31]
A
I care that they come for myself personally. More protein than carbohydrates. Because that's what I've learned works best for me.
- [67:40]
B
I always think about the biochemistry of people. It sounds really nerdy, but your body generates its own carbohydrates from protein. And it just seems for whatever reason that you are someone who's. And typically that takes longer. But perhaps because it's endurance. And I'm sure someone will send us the science. Perhaps because it's endurance. There's a length of time. Because you don't. Do you not do gels or any of that?
- [68:05]
A
I do. Maybe every few hours I'll do a gel. I prefer applesauce. 90 calories and the squeezies. And applesauce. It's easy, digestible, goes down quick. Even in the heat, it's still cold. Feels cold. That's when gels taste terrible. But yes, you can feel a gel. Especially if it's got caffeine and you're tired.
- [68:30]
B
Does it help you?
- [68:31]
A
It absolutely helps.
- [68:32]
B
And you use caffeine?
- [68:34]
A
If I'm tired.
- [68:35]
B
We would consider caffeine an ergogenic aid. You don't routinely use it unless you feel like you need it.
- [68:41]
A
In an event. Like I drink a cup of coffee every day because I love the taste, but I wait till I need caffeine because then it does really help.
- [68:50]
B
What about supplements? Do you use any essential amino acids when you're training? Or branched chain or creatine?
- [68:58]
A
I use creatine. I don't use amino acids right now.
- [69:02]
B
Outside of training. You use creatine?
- [69:04]
A
I do.
- [69:05]
B
You find that that helps?
- [69:06]
A
Absolutely.
- [69:08]
B
When you see people go wrong.
- [69:10]
A
Right.
- [69:11]
B
Cuz you think about your first race, the bath water, the asphalt's melting, people's shoes are melting, their face is melting off.
- [69:17]
A
And they say you can fry an egg on the road. I bet you I've never seen it,
- [69:20]
B
but I would totally eat that. You know, a little alcohol, clean it up. But I would totally eat that. Do you see common mistakes that are being made I do.
- [69:31]
A
The common mistakes are going too fast in the beginning because you feel great. You feel like Seabiscuit, you know, you feel like the racehorse. Not having a plan in place.
- [69:43]
B
Tell me, what do you mean by having a plan?
- [69:45]
A
First of all, you have to have a nutrition strategy plan. Like, what are you going to eat the day before? You're going to go eat a bunch of bags of spinach and have gastrial distress? No. So trying to get people to eat normal and hopefully that normal comes up to, like eating lean fish or chicken and rice and things that are going to be sustainable. What do you eat for breakfast that day? How soon before the race do you eat that breakfast?
- [70:18]
B
Do you have recommendations for.
- [70:21]
A
Preferably, I like, like a bagel with almond butter, banana, things of, you know, calories that are protein and carbs that are easily digestible and sustainable. And drinking your sports drink, whatever. There are millions of choices of drinks like the one that you have chosen, that you've trained with, and that's going to work with you so that you actually start out hydrated and getting like 100 calories before the event starts. That's when you start your. I'm going to try to get 100 calories every 30 minutes so that I sustain myself for the period of time and constantly sipping fluids. Like, if you. If you wait an hour in 120 degrees, you're done.
- [71:12]
B
You're done.
- [71:12]
A
Or if you, you know, you wait so you're. It's constantly sipping. Constantly. You know, I have my students do a sweat test. How much sodium?
- [71:20]
B
Let's talk about that. That is so cool.
- [71:22]
A
Much sodium do you need? Like, everyone's different.
- [71:25]
B
Yeah, that's very cool. Do you have a kit that you use or something like that?
- [71:29]
A
Well, you can buy kits, but there's also a formula that you can use. You know, you. It's a dry heat, but, man, you are hot and you are sweating. How much sodium? People are afraid to take sodium. When you're in an environment of that kind of heat, you need sodium.
- [71:47]
B
Would you say it's fair that when people are sweating, it's not. I mean, it's not just water. They're sweating out electrolytes or sweating out sodium and that if you just replete with water, that's probably not the most effective repletion strategy?
- [72:02]
A
No. I mean, water is water, but it's not electrolytes and it's not. I mean, you're not going to make it on just water, you know, so you have a plan. You have a plan with you know how much sodium you need, the calories that you need. You know, you're smaller than me. Maybe you only need 150 calories an hour. But you've worked on that in your training. And that what is what fuels you to feel good. And if you stray off that, you're gonna bonk.
- [72:31]
B
And, you know, and by bonking, you just mean like, that's it.
- [72:34]
A
Well, that's it. But you can come back. But you might have to rest. You know, if you're having to sit down and chug bottles of electrolytes, you're way behind. Yeah, like there is a way to stay on top of it.
- [72:45]
B
We recommend. So I still have a medical practice, and obviously I'm here in Texas, but we have athletes all over the country. And one of the things that we always have them do is again, we always have them use electrolytes. One of the electrolytes that formulas that we have them use is. It's a company called Body Health and it's Body Health Electrolytes. And these electrolytes all also have some essential amino acids.
- [73:10]
A
Yeah, that's great because I have to try those.
- [73:12]
B
I'll give you some, actually. I'll give you a box. What we're seeing is that it's not just the utilization of carbohydrates, but they're also using the body's protein. And this, when you replete it, you replete the fluids, but you also replete some amino acids during training. And it seems to be able to help people go further.
- [73:35]
A
Makes perfect sense.
- [73:37]
B
Again, I don't. I personally don't recommend people just replacing water, especially if they are sweating or being super physically active. Is there an obvious mental toughness difference between those that are going to make it, those that are going to stay at the 10, assuming they all have a strong. Why is there something that you're like that person? They got it.
- [74:03]
A
It's really watching the evolution of the person, the growth of the person and your why is forever changing. Sometimes, you know, your passion and your purpose, your purpose and your passion, they change and they evolve with growth. Some people decide that they don't love it, you know that there's something else out there for them. Maybe the 10 miles made them perfectly happy. Then there's others who get to the 10 mile and they want to try something more and more and more. But some are quite satisfied. And to me, you can pick some of these people out, but you can also change your mind if you see potential in them, in growth, and that they're really capable that we all get stuck, you know, sometimes or maybe they had a bad experience and that, you know, they say, like, you didn't finish something. There's reasons why we don't finish things. I mean, I have certainly not finished things. And I don't call them dnf. You, you stink. You, you know, you're no good. That's basically what it says to people. Dnf. I call it an mtrc. You know, live to race another day. Sometimes the wheels fall off and there are necessary reasons why you're not going to be able to finish. But we shouldn't be made to feel bad about it. Those are the best growth lessons right there is to learn from not finishing something. It's not failure. It's literally learning. And if you learn something, you've won.
- [75:44]
B
I'm hearing this common theme through the conversation, and there's a level of reframing to positivity. Do you experience that the same way?
- [75:54]
A
Absolutely.
- [75:55]
B
Is that a conscious choice?
- [75:57]
A
It is a conscious choice. I mean, you can either walk around and feel bad about something, or you can find the silver lining. I definitely believe that we have experiences good, bad and ugly. And hopefully more are good than anything. Sort of like average good or great. Average good or great. Average, good or great. I mean, you can be an average golfer. I'm an average golfer. I'm a good cook. But greatness, how do you hit greatness?
- [76:26]
B
How do you hit greatness?
- [76:28]
A
It's a lifetime of work. It's a lifetime of work to hit greatness. I mean, you are hitting greatness. So amazing to watch, you know, and you have a lot more greatness in you because you're still striving, you're still moving forward. You know, for myself, I'm. I want to be a great mother, a great, you know, spouse, a great friend, a great daughter, and then a great coach or a great mentor or somebody who can influence even one person to really find what you're capable of doing. And not just physically, but emotionally, spiritually. And that comes with being peaceful. It comes with being peaceful and accepting. Not everything is going to turn out the way you trained for.
- [77:14]
B
And it doesn't have to be this our society, part of what I think society does is they say, okay, well, this was a failure. You turn the failure into success and feel bad about it because that feeling bad about it is going to move you to a place where you're never going to do it again. Again. But what you're saying is definitely more of the way of this peaceful Warrior that, okay, it didn't go as planned, but that doesn't mean it was bad. Means whatever that decision you made at that time was the right decision for you. And that simple fact of being the decision that you made that was right for you at the right time can perpetuate into something even greater.
- [77:58]
A
Yep. Make the right choice or I made the right choice for me. I. I didn't fail. You know, a DNF does not mean you fail. It means you actually learn. And you made a really good choice that I'm not able to finish today. Something I trained really, really hard for or, you know, in the Olympics, I trained to win. Somebody trained to win, and they were 10th place because. Because they got a flat tire during the triathlon. I mean, the wheels fell off. You had to make a choice.
- [78:32]
B
How does someone practice that?
- [78:34]
A
By believing that anything is possible. Good, bad, the ugly, average good or great. Like you can train for the best, the best of the best, and hope to have your best day. And. And it doesn't turn out that way. Are you going to spend the rest of your days never doing it again because you feel bad?
- [78:55]
B
Some people do.
- [78:56]
A
Some people do. But, you know, I heard your assistant this morning, she had a terrible experience in her first Ultra because it didn't turn out the way she had thought the course would be. It was more rocky, so she's never doing another one.
- [79:10]
B
So let's say she had completed it and it was what she interpreted as a terrible experience. Is that enough to say, you know what? That's not for me? Yes, but the idea that there is something that is unfinished, do you believe that that should be finished and then the decision should be made?
- [79:32]
A
I believe in seriously contemplating unfinished business. Like why your. Why. Why did you sign up in the first place? Okay, I didn't finish this time. I'll give you an example. So 10 bad waters, right? 10 bad waters. But I had one unofficial finish, meaning I didn't finish the official race course. I had landed in the hospital getting an iv. You're disqualified from the race. But I left the hospital and I went and finished the race. I went and finished, but it was unofficial. So for years that I was fine with it. Got 10 bad waters. Got 10, even though one's unofficial. But it never went away. Like I, you know, readings. She did nine bad waters and one unofficial. So she had 10, but it was one unofficial. So I really was eating at me that unofficial. So that's when I went back and got the 10th official. So in my mind it was Unfinished business. But that was me. I really wanted to have the official. So you got to decide what's important to you. You know, was it so bad when you made the choice to not finish that you truly were not enjoying it at all? You never want to go back again. You found out that this isn't for you. That's okay, because there is something else for you.
- [81:04]
B
But there's a danger in having unfinished business.
- [81:07]
A
There's a danger in having it. You have to live with it. You have to be okay with it. You're the one who has to say, doesn't matter to me. But does it really not matter?
- [81:18]
B
Would you say it's more dangerous to start something and not finish it than it is to not start it at all?
- [81:25]
A
Oh, boy, that is such a great question. I think if you can't stop thinking about it, you really should sign up. Like, if you just can't stop thinking about it, sign up. You have everything in your power to try your best to get to the starting line, you know, and getting to the starting line is half the battle, along with your nutrition and strength and everything else that goes with it. If you want to dedicate yourself to improving yourself, and if it doesn't work out, you'll be okay. You'll be okay because you'll be better for it.
- [82:01]
B
But then you better complete it the next time.
- [82:03]
A
And if it doesn't work out the next time, I mean, I know people who've gone back five, six, seven times to finish to, like, do something. Look at Diana Nyard. Like, what? It took her six tries to swim across the ocean the first five. She didn't make it, but I have such respect that it was so important to her that she figured out how to finish. She figured it out, but that's not for everybody. But finishing and completing things are important.
- [82:37]
B
Lisa Smith Batchen, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm extremely inspired. I know that the listener is going to be and the viewer is going to be inspired by your commitment to both excellence and living someone's dream, living their dream so that it's not left on the table. And then finally, I know that you're on a mission to make people stronger. And it means so much to you. And I know you personally, and I've seen it, and I'm just really grateful. Thank you.
- [83:10]
A
Thank you. Grateful for you.