← The Dr. Josh Axe Show
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- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by. Prime Obsession is in session. And this summer, prime originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice off campus. Elle every year. After the love Hypothesis, Sterling point, and more slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime.
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B
There are pathogens lurking in our body and our organs that most people are unaware of.
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C
They'll be doing fine. And literally someone would get a mosquito bite or they get a small cold and they go into a high histamine response. They love me and they say my blood's sweet. No, it's because possibly those infections get in there. And when you look at even the routes those parasites go straight to the brain.
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B
Infections are so much more common than people realize. These low grade infections like parasites and Lyme disease and molding Candida and H. Pylori, they think there's something else going on. But the reality is, is if you want to heal, you've got to find the root of what's going on and be able to address those conditions at its root. Every day in my practice, I see patients with brain fog, chronic fatigue issues, hormone imbalance, thyroid issues, infertility, insulin bounce, inflammation, and joint pain, and so much more. And there are pathogens lurking in our body and our organs that most people are unaware of. Everything from mold to parasites to Lyme to bacteria to Candida and so much more. Today, I've brought on one of the world's leading experts in infections. It's Dr. Christopher Motley. He's a close friend of mine. And today we're gonna do a deep dive into how to heal multiple organs in your body and reverse issues with chronic infections. And we know this is a big deal today. I'm thinking about people today dealing with chronic infections that have caused their health issues. People like Jordan, Michaela Peterson, like Justin Bieber, Chris Williamson, people that have battled Lyme and issues like mold and. And it's absolutely destroyed or impacted their life in a negative way to where they had to seek out, move away from conventional medicine and start seeking natural forms of medicine to finally completely heal their body. And we're gonna walk through the top herbs, diet, supplements, lifestyle advanced treatments today for healing your organs and chronic infections. Dr. Criss, welcome to the show.
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C
Thank you, my friend. I appreciate it. It's always a pleasure. We always have the best time. One of my closest friends, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it, brother.
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B
Thank you. Well, I love having you on. You're probably the number one repeat guest here. On. The reason is I love. You've got a great background. You really have studied a lot of functional medicine, but you've also studied a lot of ancient Chinese medicine, Ayurveda, and do a lot with your patients. And whenever we have family members sick in our house or I have family members having issues, typically there are three main practitioners I send them to. Typically it's yourself. You're at the top of the list. We have our friend that is Chinese medicine, Gilbert Ami and then Gezagoli there in Atlanta. And then of course, most of the time, you know, there are things that I personally deal with in our clinic, the Longevity Clinic or the Health Institute. But there's so much value in getting the opinion of a second physician. And that's when I'll reach out to people like you or Dr. Ghez and we'll have these conversations, especially with hard cases. And there are so many people today struggling with major symptoms. You know, the brain fog issues, the chronic pain in their joints, the, you know, these, these, these inflammatory conditions that are causing histamine reactions. That's right. You know, these are, these are really common today. And my first question for you is, what is at the root of so many of these new conditions that have started growing over the past 20 years?
- [04:02]
C
There are quite a bit of infections and microbes that would cause that over response of histamine. So when the patient comes in, I'm always trying to find out what would create high histamines even through their blood work, if they have histamine that's overflowing through their joints, because many of the individual individuals, they'll be doing fine. And literally someone would get a mosquito bite or they get a small cold and they go into a high histamine response and it kicks on this process. One of them, I'm not saying it's the only one, is we talked about mold before and I'm not saying it's the only thing, but when we go down the wire and we keep doing testing, even blood work and even urinalysis testing, when you start cleaning out different parasites and different microbes, one of the biggest things is the mycotoxin load. And when we read things like Dr. Shoemaker, those guys, those doctors who very smart and they do mold protocols, they are talking about the mitochondrial damage and how the mold toxins literally make your mitochondria go into a defense mechanism, a defense mode. And this in turn creates more oxidants, more oxygen species, rusting the inside, injuring your mitochondria, hurting your brain, literally tearing the layer of the fats off your brain. And I'm not trying to sound too harsh, but. But when you get down to some roots, I would say mold toxins can be one of the top ones that's creating these.
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B
Well, and this is where to your point why mold is such an issue? Such an issue. And by the way, I wanna say it's like 24% of the population does not detoxify mold. Well, and most people are familiar with things like mthfr, right? Your body not being able to methylate as strongly as other people. A lot of people have that gene, but there are others like comt, moa, a glutathione variant. So there are other genetic variants that most people aren't educated on that can actually bottleneck those detoxification pathways. And some specific ones like COMT is one where if you have that and you can do a genetic test, this is something we do in my practice, I know, is testing for not only mthfr, but all of these other genetic variants that can indicate whether somebody might need help and support and better eliminating mold. And you've seen this before. It's like I've walked through friends with a hotel who might be mold sensitive and they're way more reactive than let's say I am in those, those cases. So, so when it comes to mold, what are the biggest symptoms? What are the biggest organs typically affected with?
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C
With mold issues, you're hitting dead on. Brain fog is probably one of your biggest indicators. Brain fog, not remembering, short term memory, joint pain that is unexplainable and also deep muscle ache. And whenever you have those three to four that are in combination, I normally lead into mold, especially if you cannot. People say I'm okay and I can't remember and then exactly what you said. If they walk into a room, if they come back into an area where there's a lot of pollen and dust in the air, they automatically get triggered. So when they get infected with mold and it's sort of laying underneath, they get some more mold in their body, they overreact. Lungs are a big thing. I mean literally lungs, liver and even the spleen. And I would say like liver and spleen can be very, very injured. And when liver methylation gets affected, one of the biggest things I find with methylation that was really intriguing to me is like when they breathe in the mold, it actually when the mitochondria goes into defense mechanism, it will shut down your methylation. Pathways in your mitochondria because they're going to try to fight off the mold. So individuals get all this histamine response. They can't dump it out of their liver because their methylation is so, you know, screwed up. And so they start to have more higher histamine redness, eczema, any type of rashes. So I always go for the liver. I look for the spleen and the lungs. Those are my top ones.
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B
Yeah, yeah, I definitely see. See that. And of course, you know, when you hear brain fog, you tend to think, well, that's an issue with the brain. Right. We tend to think that. But of course, there's this great connection between any sort of digestive process, whether it be liver or gut, and how that affects it. And so I. I definitely see that as well. You know, the other thing that I think about when it comes to mold, obviously it can impact the lungs. I mean, there's. There's numerous organ systems there. I want to stick with the brain for a minute and go. Go kind of through these eight different organ systems. And so let's start with the nervous system.
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C
Yes.
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B
And. And you mentioned something about molding. You mentioned it impacting the brain or nerve tissue. Right. I had a patient many years ago who was diagnosed with ms, was in a wheelchair. We radically changed her diet, put her on a detox protocol, was able to get out of the wheelchair in a few weeks. And then later on, they said, oh, we misdiagnosed you. It was an issue with mold toxicity. And we know that there are certain types of microorganisms that will actually cause demyelination.
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C
Yes.
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B
Of some of the nerves. And so we know mold is a big one. Talk about that for a minute. But are there any other pathogens that cause similar. Similar neurological effects?
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C
You're hitting it, like, right in the. Like right dead on. It's usually mold that I find, or even Lyme disease or those infections that demyelinate mold. It's very, very injurious because mycotoxins, especially like okra toxins, have been known to actually create enzymes that tear down lipids. And so that's the hardest thing. They tear down the fats around your. Your nerves. And so the. The fats around your nerves transmit the signal faster. So that's why you can't think faster. You think slower. And then also with Lyme disease, Lyme disease, they love to munch on the myelin sheath they embed into that area. They will eat that stuff up. They'll actually process it because they need it for their own processes. So whenever I see that brain fog come up, those are the top two that I would see that actually injured the brain.
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B
Yeah. And one other type of infection I do want to mention with brain and brain tumor specifically, are parasites. Now, parasites can go anywhere in the body, but I covered this in a previous podcast episode where I focus solely on parasites. And the studies show that the glioblastoma.
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C
Yes.
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B
Is correlated with parasitic infections.
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C
Yes. You know, like when we were talking, like, about astrocytes or glial cells in the brain, one of the most fascinating things is that parasites, like the common ones that people don't really look for, but they actually, on the cdc, look for them. Things like Trichomonas, literally, Leishmania. And you hear about these in other countries, like leishmaniasis. And when you get a mosquito bite, the mosquito has the parasite within them, they transfer it to you, and then it kind of cultivates, it actually starts to grow. And then the mosquito will bite you again and pull that parasite back in, because it's a whole full cycle of creating eggs and creating the mature adults. And the mosquito grows one aspect of the parasite and it transfers to you to help it develop in you. So that's why individuals will have. Well, I'm always getting eaten up by mosquitoes. There are people out there listening right now that go, man, they love me. And they say my blood's sweet. No, it's because possibly those infections get in there. And when you look at even the routes, those parasites go straight to the brain, many this is on cdc, they go to the heart, the lungs, the intestines, the liver and the brain. And so they tell you that, like, when it gets up here and you start to get it in your head, a lot of people will actually cough up out of their lungs and they swallow it down to their digestive system and it spreads throughout that area. And this is not to sound scary, but they get into the air and they say some of the things like leishmaniasis on its own will cause etching away of the brain tissue. And they've seen like those reports, like on even scans, where they've had areas of the brain that have been eaten away and they've had high amounts of parasites in their body.
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B
Yeah. So we see these infections, and again, one thing I would just tell everybody is that infections are so much more common than people realize. These low grade infections like parasites and Lyme disease and molding candida and H. Pylori, and we tend to think of the bacteria ones as maybe a little bit less harmful, but those are really common as well. So I want to dive into those in a minute. But actually, before we dive into that, I want to dive into the liver and talk about the liver more. Our liver is our body's main detoxification organ. Now, there's a lot of others that are very helpful. Of course. Your lymphatic system is a big deal. Your digestive tract is great for elimination, your kidneys, but the liver is that chief detoxification organ.
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C
Yes, yes.
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B
What microbes most impact the liver in a negative manner? And what are some things people can start to do to. Or what are some of those symptoms related to these liver issues?
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C
You're right. Main ones be parasites. Mold really hits the liver. Lyme can do that as well. But you're telling the people what I love to hear. Because the back bacteria is a really big issue too, because many times strep and even staph can get into your liver and create a lot of dysfunction. So when you get strep throat when you're a kid or get a staph infection, like skin issues, even at a young age, unfortunately, the infections can stay in your system for quite a while. And your liver is trying to detoxify them. And they will grow in the liver, because if your liver starts to get weak, it will not actually help you methylate very well. And the infections and some of their pathways, guys, they literally will eat up B vitamins. Some of these parasites, some of the Lyme infections, actually metabolize B vitamins. And so it gets into the liver, creating some of this dysfunction. You'll get jaundice at times. You'll get vision. Because the liver is connected with the eyes, your vision will get spots, blurry points, little floaters, as you would say. Some people actually get yellow around the eyes. They'll even have discoloration in their skin. Waking up in the middle of the night from like, you know, midnight to 3am is a big one. Liver would also do this is a big one. Liver controls the joints and the sinews. Because your liver creates the tendons and ligaments components like collagen, it helps it metabolize. So you will have instant joint pain. So joint pain where I feel so stiff I can't move. Adding all those together, if you guys have those, that's where the liver's coming involved.
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B
Yeah, yeah. And obviously you need your liver working right. Your liver is responsible for detoxifying estrogen, balancing out numerous hormones, cleansing your blood.
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C
Yes.
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B
And one Other thing I think about too, that I see an issue with when it comes to the liver is I see it oftentimes people might not think of it like this, but it can be connected to sibo and overgrowth of H. Pylori, more related to the gallbladder. But it's, you know, your liver helps create all of this bile, but your gallbladder stores it. So if you have a high fat meal, it's more there to go ahead and help break down and detoxify. Bile really matters. I think we're gonna see more and more talk about supplements like ox bile and tudka and a lot of these. More. More bile support supplements, more these bitter herbs and things like that. Because what happens is if your body isn't producing enough bile, you can't fully break down and digest and absorb fats. But also it puts more stress on the small intestine. And bile is also partly responsible for keeping your microbes balanced. So is stomach acid. And so if that's not correct, then you can have this H. Pylori start to creep up and start to overtake your small intestine. And I see so many patients today that have sibo, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. And I know it's probably something you see as well, but I think the liver and gallbladder and bile production is somewhat key there as well.
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C
When you look at a blood panel and you'll see high amounts of H. Pylori, because most individuals think they had heartburn, they get an ulcer, they get antibiotic, they get rid of it. H. Pylori are stubborn. I always say in the practice, H. Pylori, salmonella and E. Coli, those are the bane of my life at times. You get somebody cleared out, they're doing great, go get a panel. Oh, H. Pylori. Exactly. And they're not breaking down fats. And one of the crazy components I also find is that many of these infections are lipophilic. So they love the bile and they'll stick in the bile. They'll get in the bile, they camp out in it, it goes into your intestines and they stick to that bile. And your body recirculates bile at times, it pushes it right back up, so you'll recirculate it the whole time if you don'. One of the interesting things is that when you make bile, your body takes the old hemoglobin, old red blood cells been torn apart. That H. Pylori gets in there, some salmonella. And some of these infections will actually basically Munch on your blood like your hemoglobin.
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B
Well, parasites do that. We know, but there are multiple infections, multiple infections.
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C
And then when it gets back, it's recirculating that, you know, that broken down hemoglobin up to your liver, you're going to make your bile. And so you'll start to find people also with like anemia type issues. And that's just like from H. Pylori and Sibo. And most people do not think that that could be that affected. So you'll start having the bloating, you'll have indigestion, you'll have gas, you'll have regurgitation up into this area. You won't break down fats. They always say if you have sinkers or floaters when you poop or you're floating, that means you're not breaking down your fats very well. If your poop is sinking, you're breaking them down. So if you start to see those small signs and symptoms. And with gallbladder, one of the biggest things I always find is people have intense mid back pain right at that T4 thoracic 4 level, start to combine those gallbladder all day.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see that. And the other thing is, I mean we're talking about individual organs, but all these organs are interconnected. Because the other thing that my mind starts going to, when I think about the liver, gallbladder, digestion there, well then I also think, well, there's also a connection between of course the stomach acid not producing enough acid, that of course can cause H. Pylori as well. But also your hormonal system, you know, if you have excess cortisol and excess estrogen, yes, those will feed candida growth, microbial overgrowth, sibo. But so many people, especially the people with histamine reactions, I found that the single biggest driver, not to say that there's not others, but I found that the single biggest driver, I think is sibo. Now I think mold's an issue. I do think there's numerous other issues. But I do think that when you have those microbes creep up there and I find it from high cortisol, that being the biggest driver too. Because if somebody starts really de stressing, going on daily walks, doing the right things, body, you know, rhythm wise, over time I'll start to see those histamine reactions start to greatly decrease.
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C
I'm with, with sibo, I would always try to target the big ones, you know, parasites and Lyme. And I cannot tell you how many times that sibo is underlying because I think as we're kids, I used to eat pop tarts all day. I would drink so much coke. I would drink so much coke and. And then you look at my gut and you think how much H. Pylori. I had ulcers when I was 11 and 12. Literally. They did upper GI's they found when I was a kid. And it's just from my diet. You know, we eat biscuits and gravy in the south and we ate like a whole bunch of sugars. And those infections, salmonella, E. Coli, the sibo, the strep, staph, those will grow. And usually people overlook them. So it's always something to look into.
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B
All right, so we talked about the brain, we talked about how these microbes impact the liver. So let's talk about the thyroid and the adrenal glands. Let's talk about these sort of stress hormone related organs and how those are typically affected. So what pathogens do you see most impacting the adrenals and the thyroid?
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C
Thyroid, I say, would always be mostly viral infections. So I see a lot of Epstein Barr virus, cytomegalovirus even they call roseolar, mostly the herpetic viruses, like herpes viruses are very common. Those really affect the thyroid. I do find a lot of strep because we get strep throat, it's in that area, and even some parasites. So I find a lot of those in the thyroid affecting it. When you start to lose the outer third of your eyebrows, when your hair starts to get brittle, when you start gaining weight, especially around your throat and your shoulders, like people get the buffalo hump or they get the inverted T or V. I think it's like this is thyroid. Those are like mostly thyroid. Adrenal glands, adrenal glands in the kidneys. We in Chinese medicine, we talked about this, how they're right together. So really the adrenal glands can be affected. Like even infections in there from parasites, sibo bacteria like strep, those will get into those areas. But I say one of the biggest things I always look for is the viral component when it comes to those organs.
- [19:52]
B
By the way, I'm so glad you said that because I think about all the people that dealt with issues like long Covid, right? And what was the number one symptom of long Covid? It was fatigue and it was issues with sort of that blood coagulating and sticking together. And there was a study that came out, you know, when you think about 80%, I think, is the number of cases when somebody has hypothyroidism. 80% of the time, it's Hashimoto's thyroiditis. Right. So it's almost always an autoimmune component. And there are studies showing that certain types of viruses can activate autoimmune disease.
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C
Yes, right.
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B
We've seen this time and time again. So I absolutely agree that when I think about the adrenals, when I think about the thyroid, the biggest culprits are viruses. You know, I think as well, probably as much as any other invader in the body, those viruses put your cells in the cell danger response, where your body is getting more in this fight or flight state. So more cortisol is gonna be continually being released there. And of course, when cortisol goes up, that's the biggest hormone that's gonna shift those thyroid hormones and things like conversion from T4 to T3, which is such a big deal. Now, when you say viruses, what have you found to be some of the biggest viral infections? Maybe the top three that might impact the body and specifically those organ systems?
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C
I would say Epstein Barr virus is probably my number one. That I would say is the biggest one. One that's often overlooked because we think it's common is like parainfluenza. Flu viruses really get in the body and they will wreak havoc. I'm not saying it's only. But it's very big. And I would say mostly like the herpes viruses family is really, really big. But cytomegalovirus. So I find Epstein Barr virus parainfluenza or flu or cytomegalo. So I always ask patients if you have this. We're gonna send a panel off to see if you have high. I even get them to do a whole herpetic virus family or even shingle viruses. Like those people who get shingles and had chickenpox, when they're really young, they'll have, like, intermittent rashes or welts on their body. But those are my top, because I literally have overlooked them so many times.
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B
Well, you know, I had a family member, and she went through it's incredibly stressful, you know, period of time and had really severe shingles. And you think about something like shingles. I mean, whether you go to, you know, WebMD or NIH or whatever website you're gonna see on there, it's connected to stress, Right? The single biggest driver of stress. And again, what organ is releasing stress hormones predominantly? Well, it's your adrenal glands. Right. And there's this relationship between the adrenals and the thyroid. So it just makes sense that, again, viral infections are the things that are most going to impact those organ systems. And so if you have a thyroid problem and you've done everything right and it's not resolving or you're constantly in fight or flight and you don't know why, again, I think most of the time there are things you can do emotionally, spiritually to help fix that dietarily. But oftentimes it's important to look at. Is there a viral infection going on that's impacting the body? What are some of your favorite. I meant to do this with the first two organ systems. What are some of your favorite herbs and supplements and treatment protocols for dealing with viral infections? Specifically the ones you mentioned.
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C
Top four for me. Elderberry tincture. Elderberry tincture. You can give it to kids. It's amazing. I love astragalus. We love astragalus. That's like the. Go to astragalus. You can make combinations of them. Olive leaf is really good because olive leaf keeps viruses from replicating. Not only does it clean up mold and fungus, but it'll keep a virus from replicating again, growing. And my last is Chinese isotis or Isatus. It's called wode. Wode is an amazing one. So those top four, if somebody comes with those viruses, I don't overload them, give them like a combo if I think it works well. And I will have patients that have had, you know, when they get the skin tags, because skin tags around the neck are a little overgross, like viral. They'll dry up and fall off when you give them that combination. Those are my top four.
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B
It's amazing. I want to mention, too, from a dietary standpoint, or let me do more of the vitamin mineral standpoint. You know, zinc is really crucial. Vitamin D is crucial. Just supporting the immune system. I agree. That's a great combination of herbs. If you also know you have a lot of heat in the body, Andrew Grafis would be a good one there, too. But I totally agree with Dr. Chris. That's a great combination. Let's jump back to the brain. We talked about mold toxicity. When you're thinking about mold, what are your favorite supplements or what do you think about in terms of a protocol for ridding the body of mold? Because I think a lot of times people will say, well, I'm going to get an air filter, or I'm going to try and take these herbs to kill it. But there's really a very important process of binding to it that's important for getting Rid of molds.
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C
I love listening to your podcast when you talk about mitochondria and you talked about tadka. So when we talk about aspects of helping the mold to get out of the the liver and the gallbladder to keep it from connecting, tadka is really, really important. I love tadka. Building back the mitochondria with the phosphatidylcholine you have talked about, even any type of alpha lipoic acids, those help rebuild a lot of the membranes, help the liver to flush a bit more with mold. When you start to rebuild the mitochondria, you also have to get rid of some of the mycotoxins. So I like a good charcoal or a binder of some sort. Some people can handle binders really well. But my for mold, olive leaf is one of my favorite ones. I love to give people, individuals. I love cat's claw. These are my favorites. Olive leaf, cat's claw. And I love neem, which is an ayurvedic herb. So if we said top three, those are very good at killing mold. One of the gentler ones that you give, like with kids with cradle caps, so you the kids that get cradle cap and they get the thick head, that's like a lot of fungus and mold. What I have found is skull cap. Chinese skull cap is very gentle and you can give a little higher amounts to even ladies that are pregnant or breastfeeding. And kids can take it too. So olive leaf, we have neem, we've got the Chinese skullcap and even cat's claw. Those are my favorite.
- [25:39]
B
Yes, skullcap is an amazing herb. You know, skullcap is probably one of those top 10 anti inflammatory herbs. Think of it more like maybe even something. Of course, during pregnancy you can have things like ginger. It's more related to an axe, somewhat like that. It's anti inflammatory, but also supports sleep. So typically. And when we think of that in western medicine, it's a sleep aid and it's a natural anti inflammatory. But again, it's gentle on the body. I love that you mentioned skull cap. And that's one of the most, you know, in different cultures, different herbs are used for because of what grew there indigenously. Right. So when you went to India, they would be using turmeric. We wouldn't have been doing turmeric in the United States, you know, thousands of years ago, you know, we would have been doing other herbs like probably rosemary to reduce inflammation. Instead, you know, over in the Middle east, they're probably using things like boswellic acid, acid from Frankincense, So I'm just saying. But in skullcap, this was used in Chinese medicine and in Asia as their tumor. This was one of their natural anti inflammatory herbs, along with a lot of ginger as well. I mean, it's predominantly used in Asian medicine. But I love that you're bringing all this up. And then I'm using tudka regularly. You know, the organ that I get most stressed in my body is my gallbladder. And I found if my bile is flowing well, my body does really well. And so I take tudka anytime I'm doing a meal that has any amount of fats, probably more than 10 grams, I'm doing tudka. And tudka is basically taurine plus bile. Right. So it's very similar to ox bile, but you've got the taurine there. And it's actually found naturally in certain animals in their bile, like bears really is actually where. So what? So, yeah, so this is used in an ancient form of medicine. They would actually go. And so you know, this in Chinese medicine, I mean, they used everything from tortoise shells to deer antler for, you know, stimulating, you know, yang energy and helping with erectile dysfunction in men. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, so. So Chinese medicine would use all of these different, even parts of animals, organ meats, glandulars. But they actually discovered they would use the bile of bear and certain other animals. It's more than just bears, but there are other animals that have this unique bile that has taurine in there. And taurine is an amazing compound that's great for sleep, really critical for mitochondrial function, important for stimulating, detoxification your liver, your gallbladder. So again, but tudka, we're going to see that growing in popularity because it's such an amazing compound.
- [27:59]
C
I love it. I did not know they had it in the bare bile. I always feel that when a patient had like a high amount of mold or even a parasite, that gallbladder, it gets congested. And I love in Chinese medicine where they say the gallbladder is like a little bag where all this bile flows. And if you look at a picture of the gallbladder and the bile ducts, from the gallbladder, it looks like a tree up into the liver. And what happens, what I see is that those little branches get clogged up and they'll have a lot of caked up junk in the branches and you need tudka to help smooth it out. You need to get some like movement back in there. Because when people get Their gallbladder taken out, they'll still come back, and their liver levels will still be off. Even after their gallbladder, I still have some symptoms because the gallbladder is just the tail end. It's the stump, it's the little root of the bile duct. So there's still infection. There's tadka. To me, just helps stuff flow. So it's one of my favorites.
- [28:54]
B
It's great. Well, obviously, one of the other big areas that infections will impact, and this is what we most think of as an organ system, but it's our immune system. Right. And your immune system predominantly lives in the colon. It lives in the lungs. It lives in these areas. But I want to talk about how infections invade and impact the immune system and some things we can do there. So when you think about what pathogens most negatively affect, and this is hard because it's kind of like all of them. I mean, it's gonna affect one thing, but let's kind of tie this to. Somebody is chronically coming down with a cold, the flu, the rundown, constantly where their entire immune system seems like it's devastated.
- [29:34]
C
Yes.
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B
What pathogens do you tend to see most impact the body that way?
- [29:41]
C
Top three that come to mind is when we're talking about immune system, I love. That's why I always go to the colon. I look at the small intestine, the colon, but I also see how it affects the lymphatic system. So when I look at immune system, I normally look at the big lymph nodes, your tonsils, your adenoids, behind your throat, behind your nose, like that area where you had to suck up the snot, your tonsil area, your lymph in your neck, your thymus gland, your appendix. These are big issues. So because they'll get congested. So viral infections really love to get into lymphatic. They will infect lymphatic cells, and that's how they hide. So Epstein Barr virus, the cytomegalo, those type of virus number two would be a strep or staph. Those are some that hide, and they're. So it is unusually very alarming how much they do that. And then the third one, any type of Lyme or CO infections, they have been known to get into lymph areas and trick your body to have your lymphatic cells surround them because they're trying to protect it. But they will sit there and live and insist and go into a dormant state. So when we talk about immune system, those are the three that I first Target out. And then whenever I try to, like, try to move the immune system, I love using things like andrographis. Andrographis is really good at helping break down some astragalus and anything that moves the lymph nodes. But those are my top three brother. Like, I love to go after that.
- [31:04]
B
Yeah. Well, you know, when I'm thinking about the immune system, too, I'm also thinking about, of course this isn't problem a. Well, you know. Cancer.
- [31:10]
C
Yes.
- [31:11]
B
It's interesting. There have been so many practitioners over the years that have said cancer is like a virus. No, cancer is like a fungus. No, cancer is like a, you know, a parasite. And of course, it's its own thing. But you'll tend to find other infections in areas nearby. Cancerous tumors. Right. And so when I think about the immune system and what to do for that, I totally agree with you. Like strep and staph, and these are things that can linger in your body. It's not just when you come down with a strep throat. Strep can live in your body for years longer. And so, that being said, the first thing that comes to mind for me is medicinal mushrooms. Right. Everything from maitake to shiitake to reishi to cordyceps to turkey tail. Maybe my favorite antiviral of all the mushrooms. And so I think that basically what you want to be doing is very similarly, if your immune system is down, you want to stimulate it almost like you do have a cancer. You want to do things that are going to boost up your immune system. Because here's the most powerful thing I want to share with everybody is that a lot of these herbs, they don't necessarily heal you. Your body heals itself. Sometimes what your body needs is a change in terrain. It needs strengthening. It needs vitamins and minerals. So I think the more you can do things that are going to lift and strengthen your own system so then your own cells can fight and kill things off. This is why, again, I think mushrooms are so fantastic. But that's the way that I think about it. And also where I think doing zinc, doing vitamin C, doing D, doing selenium, making sure that you're getting these vitamins and minerals that are immune, supportive, of course, that's critical as well. I love it.
- [32:48]
C
I love it. I think that one of the biggest keys that I've seen with my patients, that their immune is really low. They'll have their vitamin D levels down in the 20s, and most of the time they'll say, well, it's In a decent range. You need to be like, you've talked about this, like 70 to 80, maybe even 90 for some patients need to be that high to help their immune system. But 100% agree. We are mostly deficient in zinc. If they do a consensus, most people are deficient in zinc, vitamin D, magnesium. So just getting the basic minerals in your body and just getting a good analysis like you through your clinic, get a basic analysis of where your vitamins and mineral levels are at.
- [33:23]
B
Yeah. You know, one of the things we do, and we do a really in depth one at the Longevity Clinic here in Nashville is we basically do intracellular testing in the. And you know what's so crazy is most people go and get this blood, get blood work done. They may go to a company like, I know some of the popular ones even online.
- [33:37]
C
Yeah.
- [33:38]
B
And they're not testing for nutrients, you know? You know what I'm saying? No, I mean, listen, let me, let me. I mean, are you getting your magnesium and your zinc and your folate and your, Are you getting all those. Most people are not. They don't know. Or MMA. That's a type of vitamin B12, right. Really knowing where your B12 levels are. Your copper, I mean, you know, copper too. That's a whole nother one. That's so important for fighting parasites.
- [34:00]
C
Yes.
- [34:00]
B
So all that being said is this is something we do really advanced panels and looking at what's going on in your cell, not just what vitamins are floating in your bloodstream. Most people don't even test for that. But also looking at. And there's a way to test it. It's called RBC magnesium or RBC zinc, where you can actually see how much of the nutrients in the red blood cell. So it's actually in the cell. Yeah. So. So there's more and more advanced testing today that people can do to actually tell what's. Where their levels are at. And it's so, so important. But I bring all that up to say the biggest things I'm seeing deficiency in are zinc is number one, vitamin D number two. I mean, those are the two nutrients. And then probably magnesium number three. I mean, you mentioned those three. And those are the ones on blood panels that I see. Okay. Those levels are too low. And then probably fourth is actually maybe surprisingly copper as being another, another big one there. Wow.
- [34:51]
C
And copper deficiency. I think there's even more research coming out and there's been good research about copper and I need to pay more attention to that too.
- [34:58]
B
Well, that, that's one I Think that parasites will also kind of throw off, you know, and they'll destroy and impact iron as well. I mean, you know that. But it's.
- [35:07]
C
Wow. Like, do you. When do. Are there any things that you love to use for lymphatic, like, any types of therapies? What do you like for lymphatic flow for?
- [35:16]
B
Well, you know, I love some of the basics, like doing a mini trampoline and rebounder, you know. So when my mom had cancer, yeah, we decided to do everything we could to start moving her lymphatics and her qi. You know, in Chinese medicine, moving your qi and getting rid of stagnation. I mean, they will say in Chinese medicine, the root cause of cancer is a qi stagnation and blood stagnation. So where your energy, your mitochondrial energy is not moving and your blood is not moving enough. And so my mom would do 10 minutes once to twice daily of a mini trampoline rebounder and then a lot of walking. And then she would even go and then get lymphatic drainage massage on a regular basis. And then, of course, dry brushing that was used in Ayurvedic medicine and gua sha, those sort of things. I mean, those are great too. So I love those. From just a daily movement standpoint, of course, qigong's amazing in Chinese medicine in a very similar way, but. And qigong is almost like standing on a rebounder. I mean, part of what you're doing there, you know, you're kind of going like, you know, you're just kind of like shaking your whole body there when you're doing that, that. That type of ancient exercise. But, yeah, getting the mini trampoline at home, I think that's such a fantastic way. And of course, there's a lot of herbs. What do you like for herbs and supplements and foods for moving the lymphatics?
- [36:29]
C
There's two that stick out to mind. There's. I know there's so many. There's great formulas. I love one called Rubio. It's called Mangistha. Mangistha is a really good Ayurvedic herb, and they use it as a. As a lymph tonic. So it's really known in that arena. And what it does, not only does it help nurture the lymph nodes, because really it's your muscle movement that moves the lymph, but it's been shown to go in there and actually clean out your lymph nodes and actually strengthen them. The next one, though, is like chanca pedra. We talked about it's like stone breaker. What I have found with individuals that have, like, the lumpy lymph nodes.
- [36:59]
B
Yeah.
- [36:59]
C
Those areas get really, really congested. Not only can the chanca pedra, It's a stone breaker. Clean up gallstones, kidney stones, even liver stones. It's been really working well for me to help with lymph congestion.
- [37:12]
B
Yeah, yeah. And I know in Chinese medicine, there's certain foods that they would recommend there as well, and herbal teas. You know, I think that, you know. Do you remember Holda Clark? She had this old gallbladder cleanse.
- [37:22]
C
Yeah.
- [37:23]
B
And they would have you prep your body before that, but it was a lot of apples and lemons, you know, and in Chinese medicine, I want to say one of the lymphatic. It's not an herb, but it was used as a form of medicine, was orange peel. Right. And so they would do some orange peel to move the lymphatics. Lemon juice first thing in the morning with some water. And so I think those things just kind of those daily protocols, you know, because that sour flavor and then the. Which is the flesh of the lemon or citrus fruit is moving for the liver, but then you also have the peel, which is more of this kind of bitterness, almost a sweet bitterness. And I think that's also moving of the lymphatics. And so, you know, I think that doing the whole piece of citrus, because,
- [38:08]
C
you know that every patient that it triggers my brain because I've had patients that had such good lymphatic flow, and every one of them did lemon juice or lemon peel in their morning tea every single day. So it totally works really well.
- [38:21]
B
Yeah. Yeah. It's a great way to go. So that's what we're talking about. Of course, when we think about infections, we think about the immune system the most. You know, we talked about a lot of things here. Yeah. I just want to also mention that I'm a big fan of a lot of the things you talked about earlier as well, for supporting the immune system, like elderberry, echinacea. I mean, these are great herbs for supporting the immune system. We talked about the medicinal mushrooms, basically, a lot of things that boost up your T. Killer cells and your B cells and those sort of things. But again, mushrooms are at the top of the list. Even green tea would be high up there.
- [38:55]
C
Oh, yes. Like, even green tea. What? I found that whenever I have to help a patient, and a lot of people can't do green tea. I understand. But we even talk about liver cleansing and gallbladder Cleansing along with immune boosting. One of the things that Chinese medicine books tell us, like, give them green tea. And I have seen some people, their immune system function so well at a good quality organic green tea. So I love green tea.
- [39:17]
B
Yeah, I agree.
- [39:17]
C
Yes. I do it every single morning. Like, I make a green tea every morning. So, yes.
- [39:20]
B
That's great. Well, I know you and I are big, big Matcha fans.
- [39:22]
C
Big Matcha fans.
- [39:23]
B
Anytime Chris and I are doing a speaking event or trip together, you know, our buddies tend to do coffee. Yeah, right. But you and I are the ones getting our matcha. Matchas.
- [39:32]
C
Yeah, we gotta do the matcha. I'm half Asian. I have to do it. Come on.
- [39:36]
B
So I remember. So we were on this trip to New York. You know, we went with Chelsea came, and then Stephanie and Isaac Meek. And I remember, you know, and I'm trying to think where. Where Isaac was, because I think you and I went.
- [39:47]
C
We went.
- [39:48]
B
And I know Steph was there. Did Chelsea go with us too?
- [39:53]
C
I thought she did, but I knew she wasn't there.
- [39:55]
B
Anyways, we went to this great, you know, Chinese tea shop in New York City. Yeah. This is probably in 2019.
- [40:01]
C
Yes.
- [40:02]
B
Because actually, I remember we found out on the trip that Chelsea was pregnant, like at the very tail end, like the day we were leaving. And we had a great time just doing all that, the T flights and doing all that together. Of course, when we were in London last year, we went with Will Cole and we did our, you know, London tea time. And that was a great time. But, you know, I think, you know, there are so many benefits of just drinking tea. Of course, that's a practice of the English of taking time for your afternoon tea. It's a practice in Asia of drinking your daily tea. And we tend to be a little bit more coffee heavy here in the United States. Now, I do want to give a warning. You know, I did a recent podcast episode on microplastics, and one of the top two sources of microplastics.
- [40:45]
C
Yes.
- [40:46]
B
Was in tea bags.
- [40:47]
C
Oh, my word.
- [40:48]
B
Now because. And you'll see some of those tea bags.
- [40:50]
C
Yes.
- [40:50]
B
It's actually made of a plastic like material. Now, of course, there's companies that are not doing that, but most of them are from the cheap brands. It's plastic. So you're pouring this steeping hot water over these tea bags and you think you're drinking this healthy herb. Instead, you're basically drinking a credit card worth of microplastics. You know, when you are gracious, doing the conventional Tea bag. So if you are buying tea bags, buy organic trusted brands. There's a brand, there's a couple I really like. I like traditional medicinals. Oh, yes. I think that they've got a really good brand and there's a couple others I like too. Organic India. There's a few good ones out there.
- [41:30]
C
Traditional medicinals. I've had some patients brought their boxes in just like, let me check that. And it's really done really well for them. I've never done the organic India though, or ever tried that one. I need to try that one.
- [41:40]
B
Well, I predominately just use them for. They have a blend of Tulsa with turmeric, ginger.
- [41:45]
C
Yes.
- [41:45]
B
That I like.
- [41:46]
C
Relaxes you right down.
- [41:47]
B
Yeah.
- [41:48]
C
Oh, dude, I gotta try it. I will, I will, man.
- [41:50]
B
All right, so we have two more organ systems I want to dive into. I want to dive into the reproductive system.
- [41:54]
C
Okay.
- [41:55]
B
And then I also want to get into the digestive system. Right. The gut microbiome, maybe the most important system. We'll talk about when it comes to infections, but when it comes to reproductive health, you know, there's a lot of women today and a lot of men where we've seen testosterone levels declining. We've seen progesterone lower for women, we've seen more estrogen based breast cancer, just major reproductive issues over time, more now, of course, PCOS was renamed now to pmos. And so there are. But we are seeing a lot of people with reproductive health issues and major hormonal issues. What pathogens do you most see impact reproductive health?
- [42:31]
C
Usually with ovaries or the testes in men, there's a bit of combination. I see a lot of fungal yeast issues that are in those areas. And predominantly because, not to sound crass, but when individuals get what they'll say like jock itch, or they'll get a reoccurring UTI or they'll have a vaginal yeast infection. At times they say, well, I got a smell down there. And like. Or if they work out and it's a heavy smell that is yeast and fungus trying to come out of the system. And they have shown that there are high amounts of. You can get an oats test, an organic acid test, and they found that there can be high amounts of fungus that grow in those areas because it's a good food supply, there's a lot of blood flow down there, there's a lot of nutrients because your body's creating a lot of ATP. So I say yeast and fungus are a big, big concern. I often find though, that there are certain bacteria that love to go down there too. Like we talked about sibo. So I'm going to say like sibo has been known to flush down and get captured in those areas too. And I don't try to harp on strep, but I find strep infections in the testes are a really big issue. And I would say parasites as well. Those are like top three that I've really found that really affect those areas. And you'll find evidence if you have those reoccurring UTIs or yeast infection. Men too, but these are the slight symptoms. If you have warm urine, like you have a warm urination quite a bit, or if you have itching down there, if you have tenderness on right above the pubic bone for women and even in the testes for men, you start to see that or any type of scaling or redness. Because I have patients that get rashes down there. And like, for instance, like even little boys, little kids, their parents will come in and they'll just say, hey, they're getting real red around their primates. Are there some herbs or something of that? I say go get them tested for a kidney infection. But they go into the reproductive system with all that to say in embryology, when we grow, like in the Chinese medicine books we read, when you are forming your kidneys, your prostate and the reproductive organs of women, those are all made from the same they call cord in your body as you're creating, so as you're being formed in the womb. So anything that's affecting your urinary system is going right to reproductive. So you have to be mindful of that. It's going to be there.
- [44:45]
B
Yeah. And this is where, I mean, there are a lot of women that deal with these chronic UTIs on a regular basis. And I see candida related there. I see as your point, yeast, of course, being related there. And this is where, you know, I love cranberry extract. I think D Mannose is a great supplement there. And then I think for men, one, of course, across the board we're mentioning herbs here, but you need to clean up your diet right first. That's more, even more foundational than a lot of these herbals going higher protein, higher fiber. Typically if you have sibo, you want to do more of a type of sun fiber or modified citrus pectin that doesn't ferment as much, but generally higher protein, high fiber, really nutrient dense foods. If you have UTIs. And even for men, in a similar way, to reduce the oxidative stress. Pomegranates, cranberries, blueberries. Right. Doing more of those types of berries. And pomegranates are going to tend to be better for. And then citrus fruits like lemon juice are going to be very cleansing and then steaming a lot of vegetables, doing those. But I would say organic lean meat, steamed vegetables, lots of berries and pomegranates. That's sort of the basis of the diet there for healing and fixing some of these issues.
- [45:56]
C
Yes. Pomegranates. Oh, I'm not a big fan of pomegranates, but I do powdered pomegranate, like whenever you break it down. And it really does help. I love. We've talked about this before. I like uva ursi. Uva ursi is a really good berry. Yes, it really does. It's it. If you grind it up, it really does well. So uva ursi, like UVA for UTIs. UTIs amazing. It's so good. And when you say D Mannose and whenever you have these infections, always remember that if you have chronic low back pain around the flanks, that's a big indicator. And also one of the big key too is when you take that. And I like Chinese coptis. Chinese coptis is a really good herb that will clean it along with the D Mannose. One thing to remember is if you ever feel like your mood's changing too, when we talk about reproductive health, when people. When a lady has a cycle, of course it changes her hormones. But if you ever feel manic, like, literally, like, man, my head is fried. Anytime the ovaries, the kidneys, anytime those are affected by infection, they call it like a crazy brain. That's what some doctors call it when they get like a chronic infection of the urinary and the reproductive system. So anytime you have that, try these herbs that we just mentioned and the D Mannos. These work really. And reishi, you told me about that one. Yeah, I tried reishi on some patients UTI and it cleaned it up. Yeah. That's awesome.
- [47:11]
B
That's great. All right. I want to hit on actually two more now. I do want to hit on cardiovascular health.
- [47:15]
C
Okay.
- [47:15]
B
And there's one in particular in my head that's very recent in terms of infections and that's long Covid. People dealing with COVID still impacting the cardiovascular system. Is that been the main virus or pathogen you see impacting cardiovascular? Is there one other that you might say is affecting the heart?
- [47:32]
C
I would say it's one of the major ones that that is showing up is Covid and with patients that have come in with their testing with the amount of proteins that are spiked that are in there and congealing around that area. The second one, I would think there's. It's a little bit of a tie. For me. It's because people get flu viruses so bad. I'm serious. Flu virus will get into the heart and will cause a lot of caking. And again, like any type of herpetic virus, but a lot of cytomegalovirus. So I say Covid will be at the top with a flu. Maybe a cytomegalovirus. Epstein Barr can be in there as well. One of the things that when they talk about caked up cardiovascular system is there are a few tinctures that have been shown to work pretty well. Even through some research, they're showing that as Venus fly trap tincture is very good because the venous flytrap juice actually breaks down flies. But they found that it actually helps break down a lot of protein structures on there.
- [48:20]
B
Well, and that's key because you mentioned this. You want to break down these spike proteins. This is why I'm a huge fan of nattokinase for this. Probably my single favorite. Of course, this is part of the natto dish in Japanese and Chinese medicine. But yeah, natto and nattokinase is an amazing thing. And I love combining that with turmeric and ginger together as a combination. But I think the more you can break down and support. And this is where also if you think about things that are proteolytic enzymes, I mean nattokinase acts as a proteolytic enzyme, but you also have bromelain and papain. And a lot of these enzymes that are found in different tropical fruits like kiwi, which has actinidin or we talked about bromelain from pineapple. That's where I really like doing those combinations and higher doses for treating long Covid.
- [49:10]
C
That's exactly. I love when you take anything like from papaya. You've talked about ginger before. Ginger's really good at doing that.
- [49:17]
B
Ginger bean.
- [49:18]
C
Yeah, yeah, it will do that. And when you talk about nattokinase, I literally brother got. I had to get my blood drawn for like a life insurance policy. And I never had got tested for Covid. Never had it. But when I talk about blood thickness, I had a thermography is done. I got my blood drawn and I felt like thickness in my neck. I was like, dude, when I got my blood drawn, this felt weird. Like I said, okay. So I went and got like thermography. And I was lit up. I was all red right here.
- [49:44]
B
Wow.
- [49:44]
C
So get this. We talked about nattokinase. So I did every day. I did nattokinase morning and night because we talked about it. And I started doing ginger and I did papaya. I did these ground up. I went back and got my blood drawn, and it was the smoothest blood. I'm telling it was bright red. It wasn't dark. So I'm telling you, that combo works.
- [50:03]
B
So.
- [50:03]
C
So, you guys, kudos to you, brothers. Thank you so much.
- [50:06]
B
That's huge. Well, last system I want to talk about here in terms of infections invading, is the gut microbiome.
- [50:13]
C
Oh, yes.
- [50:13]
B
Okay. So now, of course, the gut microbiome, it's connected to so many of these organs. We know that infections. Of course, we know that there are hundreds, if not thousands of different types of bacteria in your gut. You know, we know that there are probably the equal amount to double the amount of bacteria in our gut than cells in our body.
- [50:33]
C
Yes.
- [50:35]
B
So we are partly bacteria. I think back to the Bible about this. When God says, we're made of the dust of the earth, we are so connected to the earth and microorganisms. And so it's important that we keep these microorganisms balanced. So when you see the most chronic types of infections that cause imbalance of the gut microbiome. And of course, again, the gut microbiome is responsible for creating serotonin, for detoxifying, for creating nutrients like fatty acids, like butyric acid. I mean, it does a lot.
- [51:05]
C
Yes.
- [51:06]
B
So which microbes are most creating havoc within the gut microbiome?
- [51:10]
C
I learned this a lot from you and Jordan Rubin. We talked about probiotics and the imbalance. But one of the biggest thing is competition. We usually have high amounts of mold that's in the gut system. We're talking about Aspergillus. You're talking about those. You can even have yeast or candida yeast, fungus type that are in there. Those are some of my top ones. If I'm going to the gut, I start to try to balance those out. You talked about H. Pylori, but salmonella is very. An E. Coli. I'm sorry, Salmonella, E. Coli, yeast and fungus. So those are always in competition, and they will create a lot of their own toxins, pooping a lot in your gut. And then at the very end of it, I would say if you have that area where it's just combined infection, parasites build up, and that could be anything from little, like round Worms to even liver flukes. I'm saying that's a lot to say, but it's in there.
- [51:58]
B
Yeah, I, I think Candida is. What I see is probably. And all the ones you hit on are absolute. But I do think Candida is maybe the biggest one that I see. In addition to probably second, I would say is maybe H. Pylori. And then I would also say, what are your thoughts on Blastocystis hominis?
- [52:16]
C
Man, you're jogging my brain.
- [52:18]
B
Yes.
- [52:18]
C
Blastocyst and hominis is something that when you randomly don't even look for it and then you get some kind of testing, like a GI map, it's in a lot of people, isn't it?
- [52:27]
B
Do you find that so many? Well, yeah, we run GI maps in the clinic.
- [52:30]
C
Yes.
- [52:30]
B
And I would say along with Candida is probably number one. Okay. And H. Pyloris number two. But number three is this Blastocystis hominis.
- [52:38]
C
And one of the crazy things was I had a patient that I. I thought I was doing really well. She's doing well, but she would keep having a reoccurring. Not only colon infection, she'd get pain in the gut, but lung infections. And long story short, she had to go to like this disease center, doctors here in town. And they were finding that. And not only histoplasmosis and blastocystis all through it. And they had to put her on a year long medication just to kill. It was so much in her body though. Wow. Yes, man. I'm telling you. And what I like to do for blastocystis, I go for the big dogs. I like to use neem. I like to go neem. Chinese coptis we talk about. And one of my favorites though. So guys write that. And one's called noni, like morinda. It's a dried fruit. It's the shell of the dried fruit and it, it will make them detach. They do not like it. So those are my top three.
- [53:29]
B
That's amazing.
- [53:30]
C
Yeah, brother, I love it.
- [53:31]
B
And one of the great things is, is with almost any infection you can use plant based medicine. You know, you got the common cold, you can use oil of oregano. Right. You can do a lot of these herbs. We talked about the echinacea, the elderberry. Right. Doing the nutrients. We talked about. So most people are most common when we think of infections, most aware of the common cold or the flu. But there are so many of these infections, mold parasites, candida, that are negatively impacting people and they think there's something else going on. But the reality is if you want to heal, you've got to find the root of what's going on and be able to address those conditions at its root. And a lot of these infections live in our different organ systems. And I know this is one of the things you're the world leader in, is being able to go and find where those infections are living and then go and prescribe the right herbs, the right diet, the right treatment plans for helping people heal at the root. So I want to say, Dr. Chris, thanks so much for coming on. I want to encourage Everybody. Check out Dr. Chris's podcast. It's the Ancient Health Podcast. You can look up Dr. Christopher Motley. Also follow him on social media. He's got a huge following on Instagram. He's posting a lot of different herbal and Chinese and natural medicine there as well. And Dr. Chris, I want to say thanks so much for coming on the show. And everybody, I want to say thank you so much for watching. Also, thank you for subscribing. It's the number one thing you could do to support the show. It allows me to bring on these amazing, high profile guests here like Dr. Chris. And also, if this episode resonated with you, think about one person that could greatly benefit from it. Please share it with them. Be on mission with Dr. Chris and I trying to change the health of this world with the power of natural medicine. We can't wait to see you guys on the next episode.