Alexis' Full Contact History

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Duncan & Coe History Show – “Alexis' Full Contact History”

Release Date: November 7, 2024

Hosts:

• Mike Duncan: Bestselling author known for The History of Rome and Revolutions.
• Alexis Coe: Presidential historian and senior fellow.

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1. Introduction to the Duncan & Coe History Show

The episode kicks off with Mike Duncan welcoming listeners to the inception of the Duncan & Coe History Show. He mentions that the series will feature a blend of previously recorded episodes alongside fresh content currently in production.

[00:00] Mike Duncan: “Hello, Mike Duncan here. As we get the Duncan and Company show off the ground, we are bringing you a mix of episodes that we've recorded over the past few months, plus new stuff we are recording right now.”

[00:24] Mike Duncan: “I am presently in the basement of the Anderson house in Washington, D.C. which is the headquarters for the Society of the Cincinnati.”

[00:37] Alexis Coe: “I was at the Greek ambassador's house, and then I went to a weird dinner and then I ended up in the Senate chambers at like 11pm it was. It was a night in D.C. yeah, you were.”

This brief exchange sets a personal tone, highlighting the hosts' active involvement in historical locations and events.

2. Book Review: Erik Larson's The Demon of Unrest

The conversation shifts to Alexis Coe discussing her recent review of Erik Larson's new book, The Demon of Unrest, which marks Larson's inaugural foray into Civil War history.

[01:31] Alexis Coe: “The Demon of Unrest is Larson's first foray into the Civil War. And I will say that Larson brings up a lot of feelings among historians that I previously did not share.”

Alexis praises Larson's ability to engage the mass audience despite the dense historical details, likening the reading experience to floating in the Dead Sea—overwhelmed yet carried along by the narrative.

[02:14] Alexis Coe: “It's like the Dead Sea. It's so dense with details that it's best just to float. Like, if you try to swim, you try to look for the origins, you're not going to find it.”

She notes Larson's strength in capturing pivotal moments leading up to the Civil War, particularly focusing on the months between Lincoln's election and the outbreak of war.

3. Terminology in Civil War History

A pivotal moment in the discussion arises when Mike skillfully puts Alexis on the spot, probing her understanding of terminology related to slavery and emancipation.

[03:45] Alexis Coe: “Or the standard is self emancipation.”

[04:00] Mike Duncan: “A free person.”

[04:10] Alexis Coe: “Exactly. Or you can say someone who freed bonds, who fled bondage. Someone who claimed their own freedom.”

This segment delves into the complexities of terminology, highlighting the importance of precise language when discussing historical subjects. Alexis further criticizes Larson's portrayal of enslaver James Hammond, urging the use of unequivocal terms like "rape" instead of euphemisms.

[06:35] Mike Duncan: “Rape.”

[06:36] Alexis Coe: “Yeah, you just say rape.”

4. Alexis's New America Series

Shifting gears, Alexis introduces her involvement with New America, a bipartisan think tank in Washington, D.C., where she has been developing a discussion series centered on America's 250th anniversary.

[07:20] Mike Duncan: “Let's move now from something that you wrote to something that you did, which is this new America series. So please tell me what on earth this New America series is and what you've been doing with it.”

[07:36] Alexis Coe: “New America is a bipartisan think tank in DC, and I have been a fellow there, and I have been working on a discussion series... I'm not so sure I get it anymore.”

Alexis articulates her motivation to bridge the gap between historical analysis and contemporary political discourse, aiming to engage audiences in meaningful conversations about presidential qualities and America's evolving narrative.

5. Challenges in Programming: The Firearms Talk

Not all of Alexis's initiatives have been met with enthusiasm. She recounts the difficulties she faced in scheduling a talk on firearms, which ultimately resulted in low attendance despite her bipartisan approach.

[14:13] Mike Duncan: “So what was the topic of like, what were you trying to talk about with guns?”

[14:18] Alexis Coe: “It's often treated like a 21st-century problem... I am approaching this from a bipartisan standpoint.”

Despite her efforts, institutions hesitated to engage with the topic, citing various reasons including the contentious nature of gun control debates.

[15:00] Alexis Coe: “But it’s exactly what I wanted. But I do think there's one final thing I'll say about it... pride in the founding, and then you see people's eyes wide... reckoning for the ways we've fallen short... aspiration towards a better future.”

6. Presidential Qualities: Empathy vs. Narcissism

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to dissecting the qualities that define effective leadership in presidents. Alexis shares insights from her talks, emphasizing empathy as a desirable trait contrasted with the narcissistic tendencies observed in some leaders.

[19:17] Mike Duncan: “Yeah. He's narcissistic.”

[19:19] Alexis Coe: “Yeah. And so that. That was fascinating to me.”

Alexis mentions how audiences frequently cite empathy as a key quality, noting the stark difference between current presidents in terms of empathetic leadership.

[18:19] Alexis Coe: “...what presidents do better and what's brought nuance to it more than I think I have ever seen.”

7. Conclusion and Teaser for Next Episode

As the episode draws to a close, the hosts hint at future discussions and content, with Mike Duncan suggesting that upcoming episodes will feature his own projects and experiences, continuing the reciprocal interview format.

[20:07] Mike Duncan: “And so, yeah, as we go forward, we'll talk about the new things that are coming along. You know, what we're working on, what's getting dropped, and next week, you can ask me questions about all the things that I have been up to.”

[20:21] Alexis Coe: “I'm excited.”

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Key Takeaways:

• Erik Larson's The Demon of Unrest receives a nuanced critique from Alexis, appreciating its detail-rich narrative while questioning its portrayal of certain historical figures.
• Alexis's New America Series aims to foster deeper conversations about America's history and presidential leadership but faces challenges in covering sensitive topics like gun control.
• Presidential Leadership Qualities remain a focal point, with empathy emerging as a highly valued trait contrasted against narcissistic behavior in political figures.

Notable Quotes:

• “It's like the Dead Sea. It's so dense with details that it's best just to float.” – Alexis Coe on Larson's writing style. [02:14]
• “You should not be someone who is immersed in the Civil War to know that you should not.” – Alexis Coe on historical terminology. [04:22]
• “We can do better. It can be better.” – Alexis Coe on America's future aspirations. [17:44]
• “He's narcissistic.” – Mike Duncan on presidential traits. [19:17]

This episode offers a compelling blend of book critique, historical terminology discussion, and an exploration of contemporary presidential qualities, providing listeners with deep insights into both hosts' scholarly endeavors and personal projects.

Transcript

[Mike Duncan]

Hello, Mike Duncan here. As we get the Duncan and Company show off the ground, we are bringing you a mix of episodes that we've recorded over the past few months, plus new stuff we are recording right now. We are going to start back in May chatting with Alexis about projects that she's been working on. Enjoy. Welcome to the Duncan and Company Show. I'm Mike Duncan.

[Alexis Co]

I'm Alexis Co and this is our history show.

[Mike Duncan]

I am presently in the basement of the Anderson house in Washington, D.C. which is the headquarters for the Society of the Cincinnati. And Alexis, you were just here in D.C. the other night. We almost crossed paths.

[Alexis Co]

I was at the Greek ambassador's house, and then I went to a weird dinner and then I ended up in the Senate chambers at like 11pm it was. It was a night. It was a night in D.C. yeah, you were.

[Mike Duncan]

You were in the U.S. senate chamber at like 11:30pm After a weird dinner at the Greek Ambassadors.

[Alexis Co]

No, the weird dinner happened somewhere else. And it's fun. And then it's also very fun to leave.

[Mike Duncan]

So what we're doing today, in today's episode and then the subsequent episode is kind of interviewing each other about what we've been up to so that, you know, you guys out there, the audience can get a handle on who we are. If you don't know me or you don't know Alexis, we're going to learn about each other. So you did a book review just the other day. Like, that just dropped the other day. Right. On Larson's new book. So, Eric Larson, tell us what you think of Erik Larson's new book.

[Alexis Co]

Oh, book reviews are tough. Right? They're arduous. I feel like I have to read it at least once. And as someone, you'd be shocked, guys.

[Mike Duncan]

How many reviewers don't actually believe that?

[Alexis Co]

Read it and don't read it once.

[Mike Duncan]

Don't even read it once. They'll just. They'll just flip through it and review it anyway.

[Alexis Co]

And we can tell this is thanks for at least.

[Mike Duncan]

Thanks for at least reading the book.

[Alexis Co]

Yeah. And this is one of the things that authors always know. When you read a review, you can say, and sometimes they're glowing. So you're a little conflicted. You're like, I'll take the win. But you didn't read the book. And that's really clear and across the board. That's like one of the first things authors talk about.

[Mike Duncan]

Okay, okay. So you took the time to read Larson's new book. And what's it about? Like, what's the topic of this book.

[Alexis Co]

So the Demon of Unrest is Larson's first foray into the Civil War. And I will say that Larson brings up a lot of feelings among historians that I previously did not share. Really popular. And I like when people have the ability to transmit history to the masses in a way that is, you know, not perfect. But it was typical Larson in a lot of ways. Just stuffed with details, I think I call it in the review. It's like the Dead Sea. It's so dense with details that it's best just to float. Like, if you try to swim, you try to look for the origins, you're not going to find it. Everything's dead. You float, you go, you're there for the ride, and that's fine. There have been books about Fort Sumter. It's the lead up to the Civil War. So he's focusing on these, like, pivotal months between Lincoln's election and his. The outbreak of the Civil War.

[Mike Duncan]

Yeah. Cause it's really, it's over that, like fall, winter, into. Into Sumter, like that's the entirety of the book is just focused on those couple of months.

[Alexis Co]

Yes. And that's when Larson usually shines. He traps you in a place. He traps you in this small area in time and space and he goes to town and it wasn't. He kept going back and forth between, you know, North Carolina and D.C. and other environs. There are a lot of fully developed characters who are not main characters. What do you. So I'll ask you this because it's just you, you haven't. You don't do the Civil War, but you know this. What do you call someone who escapes slavery?

[Mike Duncan]

What do I. What would I call. Well, number one, I'm not. I'm not ever writing about the Civil War.

[Alexis Co]

Yeah, right.

[Mike Duncan]

I'm not touching the Civil war with a 20 foot finger.

[Alexis Co]

Fair.

[Mike Duncan]

Fair.

[Alexis Co]

What would, what would you. How would you describe a person who escapes bondage?

[Mike Duncan]

A free person.

[Alexis Co]

Yes. Or the, the standard is self emancipation.

[Mike Duncan]

Oh, so. Okay. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so there's, there's a word for this and it's self emancipation.

[Alexis Co]

Yes. Or you can say someone who freed bond, who fled bondage. Someone who claimed their own freedom. Right.

[Mike Duncan]

An enslaved person who achieved their own freedom. Self emancipation.

[Alexis Co]

Exactly. I put you on the spot on purpose because there are so many ways to go and a lot of them are acceptable. Right. You do not have to be someone who is immersed in the Civil War to know that you should not. Are you ready? Escape minded blacks? That's what he.

[Mike Duncan]

Right. Yes. Escape minded blacks. Which leads to the question.

[Alexis Co]

So there were bondage minded blacks.

[Mike Duncan]

Yeah. Yes.

[Alexis Co]

And it, not only, not only that, I mean, it's just, it's when I read it, like my eyes sort of, you know, I had to read it a few times. It's, it never goes in. So why don't people escape? Not so you're saying, you're suggesting that people are just like, oh, well, I don't know, I'll just stay here. It's not so bad. You're ignoring the fact that they ran the risk either way of never seeing their family again. Their loved ones. It's not like they can cut their hair. It's not like you're a woman cross dressing during the Civil War. You stand out. You could be caught, you could be. Someone else could steal you, claim you for their, their own. You could be beaten, you could be sold. All sorts of things could happen to you that are, that are terrible. There are lots of reasons people did not attempt to escape. And black people were lumped together like a monolith. Like they were as ubiquitous to slavery as cotton is to the South. And then the other thing is when you are reading the words of an enslaver, you quote them. You do not adopt their language for a reason. So another guy named James Hammond, who was governor and then a senator, he's the one who gave the cotton is king speech in Congress. Okay, so Larson, again, not a main character, but Larson just loves these white men. And Larson focuses on him and he, he talks about how Hammond bought a woman and made her, quote, his mistress. And then when her daughter turned 12, he made her his mistress as well. That's the word that Hammond uses in his will. You know what word we use?

[Mike Duncan]

Rape.

[Alexis Co]

Yeah, you just say rape. And that followed this like. And that was about two paragraphs and that followed maybe pages about how Hammond had had, quote, a four way affair with his underage nieces, also called rape. It's not a four way affair. And the emphasis in the, in the perspective of only coming from one side was so hard. And so I, I pan the book. I pan the book. When you pan or praise, I always think that you should substantiate what you're saying. And I substantiated everything. The title of the review that the Times chose was Erik Larson probably should have stayed away from the Civil War.

[Mike Duncan]

Yeah, it sounds like he probably should have stayed away from the Civil War. Let's move now from something that you wrote to something that you did, which is this new America series. So please tell me what on earth this New America series is and what you've been doing with it.

[Alexis Co]

New America is a bipartisan think tank in dc, and I have been a fellow there, and I have been working on a discussion series. And this is new for me. I mean, everything about this is new for me. I wasn't producing anything like a product. I wasn't producing a podcast or a book or a magazine article, although probably all of those things might come from it. I, as a presidential historian now, have been through a few different election cycles in which I have given commentary on what's happening. There have been times where I've been on the same panel with the same presidential historians three or four times in a week. I know what they're going to say. They know what I'm going to say. And so creatively and intellectually, while I always feel excited, I'm not sure that I'm challenged. Like, I'm really scared anymore. And that's. That's a problem. And so I knew that I wanted to create a series in which there was less of a disconnect between what I was studying and what I was hearing and seeing from the electorate and what America is progressively becoming, because I'm not so sure I get it anymore. Even though you'd think I would know the answer to the question that I posed, which was, how should a president be? I'm not so sure anymore. You know, these deceptively simple questions are always the most complex. I pitched this to New America. I applied for the Fellowship, and at the time, I thought I would do like five or six talks. But the fellowship is really thinking about America's 250th. Our 250th birthday from the Declaration of Independence, which is happening in 2026, and low key. This is a battle for our collective memory. Right. This is very much a fight for the hearts and minds of America and to tell our story. And so I thought, okay, I don't. I mean, like, these. This ambition will kill me. But I needed to do 13 talks for the 13 colonies.

[Mike Duncan]

Of course. Of course. Thirteen. Perfect. I love this ambition.

[Alexis Co]

Sure, why not? And I wanted them to be somewhat unexpected, to be in traditional places and not. And the first one was with Jamel Bouie, and it was on TikTok, because he loves TikTok. And so.

[Mike Duncan]

And everybody. And everybody loves Jamel. He's. He's every historian's favorite columnist.

[Alexis Co]

He is. He's unimpeachable. He's a great person. He's a great cook. He's a great dad. He's all the great things. He's just wonderful. And he's always fun to talk to. I am almost always doing something with Jamel Bowie on whatever I'm working on.

[Mike Duncan]

Yeah, I mean, we've been, you know, we were both guests at separate times on podcast because you did JFK and I did. I did Sneakers. But anyway, so you pitched that. When did you pitch this to them? To New America?

[Alexis Co]

I think it was 2023. You know, there's a deadline for these things. I pitched it. I had a couple interviews and the. I have not interviewed for a job or, you know, I do interviews all the time, but it's about me and my work. It's not interviews for a position. And so that was a little bit different for me. And had an interview and then I got it, which was very exciting. And I went around the country or sat at home and talked to people. And so Jamal started it. Then I talked to Taylor Lawrence at the Post about technology, which for me, again, I know nothing about technology. The AP wire, to me, when that was installed in the White House, that to me is like technology that really changed everything. I had. I went to the Mershon center for International Security Studies at the Ohio State University, talked about national security studies. And that's when I think I told you this last time. I had that moment with the grad student.

[Mike Duncan]

No, I don't think I heard about the moment with the grad student.

[Alexis Co]

So when you give a talk at a university, they don't. It's not just a talk. Right. They want their money's worth. And so they. Because, you know, New America pays for it. But they also.

[Mike Duncan]

Yeah, they always. They always just kind of like tack on another thing and another thing. And, oh, by the way, there's a lunch you're coming to. And it's like, okay, well, you didn't tell me about the lunch when we.

[Alexis Co]

It's a six core set menu. But I mean, if you want to.

[Mike Duncan]

Yeah, right. No pressure, but okay, no pressure, no problem.

[Alexis Co]

And usually there's a grad student who kind of ferries you back and forth or a professor. And because the Ohio State University is so big, there were also robots everywhere. But because it's so big, it was grad students and they have a hotel on campus. Different grad students picked me up and dropped me off from the events. And one of the students was, like, particularly starry eyed and I thought it was. She seemed young. She said, okay, I have a confession. I Was so excited to walk with you because I have been watching you almost my whole life. And for a minute I was like, oh, the hyperbole on this one.

[Mike Duncan]

But how long is it, how long has it been, though?

[Alexis Co]

But then she, the story checks out because she cited a CNN documentary, my first big documentary on the Kennedy that I recorded in 2013. And I think it aired around then. So she was about 11 or 12.

[Mike Duncan]

She was like 10.

[Alexis Co]

Yeah, yeah, 12. It was again my big, my first big thing. And she watched it with our family and it, she said that for her because, and I remember this in particular, I was so much younger and I'm still so much younger, but then in particular I was. Than everyone else in the documentary that she, it was the first time she realized that she could do that.

[Mike Duncan]

That is so cool. That's amazing.

[Alexis Co]

Yeah, that wasn't just reserved for men.

[Mike Duncan]

Yeah. Or like old, you know, gray haired luminaries. It's, you know, somebody like me could be out there. And then she got to meet you. And then she got to meet you and say that to you.

[Alexis Co]

Yes, that's very cool. And I got to. Then of course, I had already given her some advice, but after she told me that I gave her a bunch of rapid fire advice and I could tell her how I had to observe, like real advice. Oh, then I was like, honey, here's.

[Mike Duncan]

How, here's how it actually worked also.

[Alexis Co]

I mean, and then I had a great dinner with professors after that went really late. You know, you have a lovely boozy dinner. The New York Historical Society, I did an event on historical reckoning with Dr. Kevin Young, who's also a New Yorker writer, a bunch of other people. So I did 13 in total. And then the last one was at New America. And here's what was interesting is all my events, you know, you get like a couple hundred people readily accepted by all these places. Even the Gerald Ford Presidential Library and Museum, they did one on presidential accountability. I could really. For presidential history. That sounds mild, but it's really sort of pushing the envelope for them. I could not get anyone to take this last talk, which was on firearms.

[Mike Duncan]

So what was the topic of like, what were you trying to talk about with guns?

[Alexis Co]

I wanted to talk about. It's often treated like a 21st century problem. So presidents can't look to the past. But I don't think that's true. And I also think that is incongruous with the argument that keeps working in the Supreme Court, which is that they cite, you know, court cases that are from the colonial era. So the winning arguments in the Supreme Court for less gun regulation, for less gun control, which is fascinating, I have to say. I am approaching this from a bipartisan standpoint. It is interesting because that argument would not work with anything else.

[Mike Duncan]

Right.

[Alexis Co]

And it doesn't work with anything else. Okay.

[Mike Duncan]

I won't editorialize too hard on my opinion of these opinions, but yes, keep going.

[Alexis Co]

I think it's quite evident. And yeah, then. But even every town, no place wanted to touch it. And they kept saying various reasons. It doesn't quite fit with our programming this year. We think that you would be better suited for this other focus we have. And then some would just say it's an election year and we don't want to do this.

[Mike Duncan]

Yeah.

[Alexis Co]

So then I got someone from the Duke Law School who runs a center there to come out and I knew America was so supportive. They had wanted me to do like a triumphant final talk where I discussed all the other talks that they paid for and were totally amenable to this. And it was by far the least well attended talk I've given in years. And so we talked about that. We talked about all the different presidents and how actually there's quite a lot to look at. All presidents had guns. In some ways, they all were hunters. They even Obama would talk about how he liked to skeet shoot at Camp David, but that a lot of them had pre presidential relationships with firearms that can influence people now. And I thought it was interesting to see, for example, that Calvin Coolidge had thought that excessive guns were unacceptable when he was the governor of Massachusetts and had passed legislation. And so I was making these connections and trying to understand what a president could do because Biden has opened a new office nobody talks about for gun violence prevention. I will say this is my final comment on that talk in particular, which is that after every national crisis or disaster, like for example, 9, 11 or Katrina and things that did not happen under W, the government has somehow been reorganized to prepare for this. And that has never happened, even after Sandy Hook. And at first it looked like it might happen. Obama gave all those great speeches in quick succession. He cried and then it just didn't. And that's why the response. It's haphazard. It seems haphazard. Because it is. Yeah, I am just getting started. I don't know what I'm going to do with it, but I'm like, I'm overwhelmed. So it's exactly what I wanted. But I do think there's one final thing I'll say about it, no matter the talk. I had three themes in mind, which was pride in the founding, and then you see people's eyes wide. And so I have to very quickly say the second part, which is a reckoning for the ways we've fallen short, an aspiration towards a better future. And I'm looking at how a president has been and also how president should be. And I want to create some sort of portrait going forward. We can do better. It can be better.

[Mike Duncan]

Yeah. Because you're asking the question, how should a president be? Right. Like, what do we expect out of a president? What do we need out of a president? Because the next 50 years is going to be. Yeah, it's going to be rough. Right. No matter what. Like, you can just see it everywhere. And we do need to think about the quality and capacity and character of our leaders. So the feeling that I'm getting here, though, is that you've done the classic thing where you've spent all of this time asking, trying to answer the question, like, how should a president be? And maybe have even less of a clear idea about. It's like, do you have. Do you have a firm answer now? Do you know how a president should be? Tell us.

[Alexis Co]

Yes and no. I mean, I think there's this complexity, but because I don't think of it as a liability, I think of it as pretty exciting. So I don't think there's one answer. I will say if I. If you're asking me, you know, I think national security, youth culture, there are all these different things, and each talk, each thing could have been its own book and maybe will be. Yeah. But I do. Then I would just ask people to name the qualities at the end. That was always my final question. How should a present be? And with few exceptions, the first thing everyone said, this is anecdotal, small sample size, but still empathy. We have a really empathetic president right now, and we have an incumbent who wants to, you know, or rather someone who has been in office, who wants to be in office again, who is the opposite of empathetic. And whether you are a supporter of Trump or not, I think you can agree he's not an empathetic person. That's. That's his thing.

[Mike Duncan]

Yeah. He's narcissistic.

[Alexis Co]

Yeah. And so that. That was fascinating to me. And then a few people, just a few said experience, and a few people said good managers. And I agree with all those things. Those are three important qualities. Then we can go and on and on. But I think it. It was. And was not. I don't think I fully answered it. I don't think I fully answered this question. I'm not sure it can be answered. But I have brought more nuance to it than I think I have ever seen. And that's really exciting. And I do want to figure out how to. I mean, there are videos that exist of some of the talks, but I want to figure out how to get this. Get this organized. This is going to take forever because, of course, I've been doing other things this whole time, too.

[Mike Duncan]

And so, yeah, as we go forward, we'll talk about the new things that are coming along. You know, what we're working on, what's getting dropped, and next week, you can ask me questions about all the things that I have been up to.

[Alexis Co]

I'm excited.