← The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #64 Featuring Dr. Chris Rhodes! The ULTIMATE MASTERCLASS ON FASTING! Learn EVERY KEY aspect of fasting! How fasting ACTUALLY works, Creating Mimio for fasting WITHOUT fasting and more!
01:01:35
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign hey everyone, Dylan Gemelli here today with an extremely exciting announcement. I am now on the Minect app as an expert. That is Patrick Bet David's app. So you can hire me today. You can ask me questions about hormones, peptides, ne, neuroscience, cardiology, cellular health, finances, faith, religion, whatever it may be. I am there. You can book me for your podcast and you can also apply to be on mine. But go over download the Minecraft app, find Ylan Gemelli. I will answer either by audio, by text, you can get video responses, you can even book a phone call with me. I'm extremely excited to be available to work with all of you and I thank you all for your support. So check me out on Manect today. Today's episode is brought to you by Mimeo Fasting has shown to be a key component to enhancing longevity and healthspan. Implementing and staying consistent on fasting protocols is often very difficult for most, and many have a hard time incorporating it consistently into their lives. Enter Mimeo. Mimeo is the world's very first fasting mimetic. Designed from human biology to optimize metabolism and support longevity. Mimeo puts a unique combination of clinically validated fasting metabolite in a daily dose to help promote your body's beneficial fasting and longevity pathways on demand. So what does this mean? It's fasting without the fasting. Mimeo's biomimetic formula activates your biology to support optimized metabolism and energy, reduced appetite and cravings, improved mood and cognition, enhanced performance and recovery, healthy aging, and so much more. Start taking control of your health and longevity today by incorporating Mimeo into your daily supplement routine. Check my link in the description to get an extra 20% off your first order of mimeo. All right everybody, welcome back to the Dylan Gemelli Podcast on set and I have a great friend here today that I am super excited to introduce to you. He has his PhD in nutritional biochemistry from UC Davis. Now this is where he's a specialist. He's an expert on human fasting and he has a company that I hold near and dear to my heart after he introduced them to me and started discussing what it does. And that is mimeo and I've actually been talking about them recently on a lot of my postings as being one of my new favorite products. And this is a biomimetic supplement. I'm going to let him discuss all of that because it is unlike any other. It is the first and only true fasting mimetic on the market. So my friends without further ado, Dr. Chris Rhodes.
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B
Thanks so much for having me, Dylan. I'm super excited to be here, dude.
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A
Thank you so much for taking the trip. I always feel extremely blessed and I never take it for granted when people take the time to come here and speak to me because while we can do virtual, it really resonates a lot better in person.
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B
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
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A
You know, and the conversations and the things that we get into and the video and so I really appreciate it, man. It means a lot for you to come down here and see me.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. I'm happy to do it and really excited to talk about Mimi.
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A
Well, I'm a spiritual guy, first of all, and fasting since the beginning of time has been important. Right. And I always tell people Jesus wasn't fasting to lose weight or preaching to fast to lose weight. There had to be a reason. And a lot of people confuse fasting for what it actually is, what it does, the benefits. And being that it is one of the my keys to anti aging longevity, longer health span, which we're going to get into.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
For me, it's, it's a very big struggle to fast because of how I train. It's not that I don't have the mental capability or the willpower. It's when you're pushing out, I don't know, 15, 20 miles of cardio five days a week, and then going to the gym and lifting another hour. Fasting's quite difficult, definitely. And I haven't been able to do it till I found you. And so I want to talk about the fasting mimetic side and for people like me and just anybody in general, if you would break down what that means, why is that working for me? What's a memetic?
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B
Yeah, absolutely. So a memetic is basically taking what your biology would normally do and then activating those benefits on demand. And in our case, using the same specific bioactive molecules that activate those beneficial pathways during a fast. So essentially what mimeo is and what mimeo does is it takes the same molecules that your body produces during a 36 hour fast, gives them back to you as a daily supplement. So you can recreate fasting at the molecular level, get those same benefits, activate those same pathways, but without actually having to fast.
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A
Wow. So it's, it's not really a cheating aspect or a cheat code, it's just your way of helping to get this going for somebody like me or somebody else that is just kind of struggling with it and giving them a little bit of extra Boost?
- [05:24]
B
Yeah, for sure. I mean there's a lot of different ways that you can use the product. You can use it as a fasting enhancer, kind of like to give you a boost. Since it's designed to mimic a 36 hour fast, it can really help to supercharge the benefits. If you're doing a shorter fast, like a 16, eight or a one meal a day, you can get these deeper stage benefits that you otherwise wouldn't experience. And then it actually has some appetite suppression effects, some mood and cognition enhancement effects. So it can make the whole process easier that way. Or if you're someone who can't fast, if you're someone who doesn't want to fast, you can also use Mimeo as a fasting mimetic. So just eat normally, take Mimeo, activate your fasting pathways, get those benefits. But even when you're eating normally, we're.
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A
Going to take the long journey here because I think first and foremost, a real formal grasp and understanding of what fasting actually is. The different ratios of fasting, like you said, 16, 8, some people do what they do a 24, 36. I want to go down the line of what fasting is and then I want to get into the different times of where the benefits actually kick in. Because I think a lot of people are really confused.
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B
Oh yeah.
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A
And they are just being fed so many different types of information that is just totally inaccurate. So it would be nice if you could break it down for people. Nice and eloquently. And we don't have to get too sciency, but we can. But just really explain the concept of fasting and then the different types.
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B
Yeah, sure, absolutely. I love getting nerdy about fasting, at least what I spent my whole PhD studying. So always happy to dive in on that. So, you know, from a very base level, right, fasting is essentially just not eating. Right. Most of the research that's been done on fasting shows really, really profound benefits to it. There's over a thousand studies that back up fasting at this point, whether that's in animal models, whether that's in lifespan extension experiments, whether that's in actual like clinical trials as well. And what we find there is that fasting is one of the only ways that we know of to reliably extend lifespan. So when you're doing prolonged regimens of fasting, the most common is alternate day fasting, where you're eating one, fasting the next, eating one day, fasting the next, rinse and repeat for an entire organism's lifespan. You can see anywhere between a 30 to 80% lifespan increase just from doing the alternate day fasting. And that's actually independent of caloric restriction. So these animals can actually eat the same amount of calories, but just alter their meal timing essentially and get these really profound lifespan extension effects. And then beyond that, when you look at what fasting is actually doing on like a disease level, it's really, really good for enhancing health span, so helping to treat, prevent or delay most major diseases, whether that's neurodegenerative diseases or cancer or cardiovascular diseases, or even autoimmune diseases. So it's really, really fascinating because it's kind of this one thing that does everything right. And what's even more fascinating about that is that it does all of that without adding anything into the body. Right. It's not like this superfood or this wonder drug that's making all this stuff happen, but somehow fasting is activating this what I like to call longevity bio program that is already inside of us, but just isn't ordinarily turned on.
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A
Would you say then fasting is one of the keys, like I say, to actually increasing your longevity, your, your length of life and quality of life?
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B
Definitely, absolutely. That's what we see over and over and over again in animal models. And it's been validated out countless times that it has this really profound effect on lifespan increase, healthspan increase and preventing disease. So it's, it's something that almost everybody can do. It's free to do. Right. And the only real trick of it is that it's super hard to do, especially long term. You know, there's a lot of downsides that go along with a lifetime of fasting. Right. So my own personal journey with this was I actually came out of undergrad, I got my BS in biochemistry from Loyola Marymount University. And then like a lot of college kids, didn't really know what I wanted to do. Took an immunology fellowship at Stanford to try and figure it out. And that's when I got really into fasting. And I really wanted to see, does this actually work? Is this all hype? So I started doing these prolonged stages of fasting, taking my own blood, looking at my own cells to see what actually happened. And I saw firsthand that my cells became way more functional. They were more resistant to stress, they were less inflammatory, they created less damage, they had better mitochondrial health, they were more metabolically flexible. So like just total functional optimization. And when you are able to see that under a microscope, you get addicted to it immediately, it's like the ultimate quantified self.
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A
So we're going way deeper than just a blood panel here or actively taking a cell out and putting it under a microscope and seeing what's going on.
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B
Yeah, exactly. I got to use all of these cool, like, immunology techniques that I was learning at Stanford and apply it to my own cells, my own blood, my own research. Yeah, really, really cool stuff. And that was when I really got hooked on it. I tried alternate day fasting at that point for around two years. But there's this weird element of social isolation that goes along with fasting where you're not having meals with, you know, family, friends or coworkers. Right. Or if you are, you're that guy who's just like, oh, let me just drink my glass of water while I watch you eat. And nobody wants that.
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A
Right, Man, Yeah, that sounds so fun, let me tell you.
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B
Oh, definitely. So I got to the point with it where, you know, I was probably taking it a little bit too far. I was still doing it even on, you know, weekends, even on, you know, vacations. And it got to the point where my sister and co founder, Caitlin, she told me basically, yeah, sure, Chris, you're going to live longer, but what is the point of living longer if you have to live less? And that really, really struck a chord for me. And it's one of the reasons why I went out and tried to develop Nimeo.
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A
That's where you got to draw the line. Right. Because if you are adding years, but you're taken away in general, then there's render it pointless. Right.
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B
And exactly.
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A
To be honest with you, when you say every other day fasting, that just doesn't sound like it's rational for anybody. I understand that that's ideal, but certainly not, as you witnessed, really rational.
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B
Right? Exactly. Society is not set up for people to be able to live that lifestyle.
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A
No way, not anymore. And I think that's why it's key that you develop something like this. I want to talk to you, though. Let's. Let's take a step back here and we're going to. I want to do something with cellular, then I want to split to neurological because everything that I do. Right. Really based around a mind body connection. Sure. And I think one of the things that I was missing through all these years of coaching people on nutrition and, you know, all of their working out and their overall wellness plan was the neurological side and the mental side. And I think. I don't want to say that it's more important, but they're equally important. And if one is off, the other's off. Right. So if you are fasting, it, as you said, can have a benefit in both ways. So that would be a key driver to overall health. So let's talk about how it's going to help you mentally. Is it helping with, like, brain fog, focus, cognition, attitude, kind of get into that a little bit?
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B
Definitely. So when you fast, there is a big switch that happens in the body from glucose metabolism to ketone metabolism. And this is a big thing for the brain, specifically because your brain is what's called an obligate glucose consumer. So it has to get at least 50% of its fuel from glucose or else it can't survive. So in a normal fed state, most of its fuel is gonna be coming from glucose. That's its preferred fuel source. But the problem with glucose is that it can lead to a lot of neuroexcitability. It can lead to a lot of neuroinflammation. It can lead to a lot of, like, excess neuronal firing that can, you know, cause all of the things that we typically think of, of kind of like a sugar high and a sugar crash, right? You get the jitters, you get that, like, nervous, anxious energy. You get the big energy swing, and then the huge crash after that. What fasting does is that in that glucose to ketone switch, you start producing ketone bodies, and then the ketone bodies go to the brain, and your Brain starts utilizing 50% of its fuel from ketones, 50% of its fuel from glucose, which then really helps to decrease neuronal excitability, it helps to decrease neuro inflammation. So you do have a lot of cognition enhancement effects, you have mood enhancement effects, and then you also have a lot of symptom ablation of neurodegenerative diseases when that stuff ends up happening. Because you're triggering neuronal autophagy, right? Which is cellular cleanup and recycling processes that are basically rejuvenating cells, getting rid of all the cell junk, replacing them with new functional parts. You're helping to clear away the excess extracellular fluid that's in the brain as well, helping to clear that out, get all the junk out of there. You're decreasing neuroinflammation by decreasing, like, microglial activity. So there's all these cool, fun science y things that happen with fasting. But yes, the ultimate end result is that people do have more mental clarity, they do have better cognition. And you can see that played out in clinical studies all the time.
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A
Is there anything to do with, like, fasting's effect on, like, the sympathetic or parasympathetic nervous system or anything of that sort?
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B
Yeah, sure. I mean, fasting in and of itself is an evolutionary stressor. Right? Yeah. So when you think about what's actually going on from an environmental point of view, you have fasting is basically telling your system, oh, there's not a lot of food around. Right. So we have to increase our memory, we have to increase our focus, we have to increase our ability to learn, we have to increase our vigilance, and we have to, you know, open our senses more so that we can be more attuned to our environment so we can have a better time, you know, finding those berries or hunting down that gazelle or whatever it is. And that's what you typically see, at least in the shorter term with fasting. Before you really enter into starvation, you get a lot of functional optimization and functional improvement of both the mind and the body, because that's what you need in order to be able to get the food, get the resources that you need in order to get out of that state and keep, you know, eating and surviving.
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A
Yeah. Because, I mean, some people, they will psych themselves out to do a fast or, like, it'll get in their head and they'll. They'll. You know how people get when they get bored and they want to eat or they start thinking about it too much. So then that's why I ask if it's counterintuitive to say that it would be helpful with brain function or stress when some people can drive themselves crazy while trying to attempt to do it.
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B
Right. Exactly. There's. There's plenty of, you know, as an evolutionary stressor, it kind of is like a fight or flight response kind of thing. Right. You are, to a certain degree, enhancing. Enhancing cortisol, which is an energy mobilization hormone, but also a stress hormone. So there are definitely things that can happen, especially on the mood side.
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Right.
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B
You know, hangry, hanger. It's a real thing. That's what I was wondering.
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Yeah.
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B
And what you usually see with fasting is that there's an adaptation period to it, for sure, where your body likes to, because of the influence of the circadian rhythms, it gets into this pattern, this habit of knowing when to expect food. And when you break that pattern, your body gets really upset about it, but only for a pretty short amount of time. What people usually find when they continue with their fast, especially for much prolonged periods, is that those feelings of hunger, those, you know, that Brain fog. The cognition dampening that can happen in the short term of fasting really goes away in the long term and you get to this adaptation of kind of like this big jolt of mental clarity. You're not hungry, you just have all this energy. That's usually what people end up experiencing, but you kind of have to push through that, that first stage.
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A
Most people can do that with anything and they don't realize it. Right. It's just what they want to do. It's like when you first take a drink of alcohol, it sucks. Don't tell me that your first drink of beer or something tastes good, but then you have it multiple times, you get used to it. Or just like when you work out and then don't work out for a while, you go back, you're extremely sore. So what do you. You just push through it, right? Yeah, it becomes a habit. And I think some people just like psych themselves out too quick and don't give things a chance and try it. So.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, that's for those people, why they can use mimeo. It's like great aid to get you kind of over that hump.
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A
Right.
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B
And into the deeper stage of housing. We have so many people who come to us and say, like, I was never able to fast before, but now I'm just like, yeah, go a whole day without eating and I don't even really notice it. It's kind of crazy.
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A
So when you talked about the utilization of glucose and ketones at 50, 50, is that what's ideal?
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B
That's basically as far as your brain can go.
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Okay.
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So it has to at all times be using at least 50% glucose for fuel or else the brain cells just can't function. And that's one of the reasons why, again, in the really deep stages of fasting, you do get some muscle loss, some protein breakdown, because in the absence of dietary carbohydrates, your body's going to start breaking down proteins in order to create glucose from there, gluconeogenesis, and then that will be used to fuel the brain.
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A
What's the key then for people that are worried about that with the fasting side of things, there are certain diet, a certain structure, certain way to fast. Is there a way around it? I mean, what kind of sacrifice do people have to be cognizant of or not of?
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B
Yeah, I would say the protein breakdown that happens during fasting is not usually centered around muscle as much as people think that it is. Because your body operates very much on a use. It or lose it principle, especially with muscle, because it's a very energetically costly organ. So what we typically end up seeing is that in these early stages of fasting you are going to get some protein breakdown, but majority of that's going to end up coming from either your liver or your kidneys. And that sounds very intimidating. Yeah, but it's actually okay because both of those organs are regenerative. Right. So you break down some kidney protein, you can always build it back up again, kind of like your muscles. So usually when people are fasting, especially more in the short term, like a 24 hour, 36 hour fast, that kind of thing, you are not going to get a significant amount of protein loss from muscle, especially if you are also continuing to work out during that period. Because again, if you're providing the physical stimuli that says, hey, these muscles are important, we're using them, we need to keep them around for the sake of survival, then that's what your body's gonna do and it's gonna get its protein from somewhere else. After those stages, when you've kind of depleted, you know, the, the protein stores from your liver, from your kidneys, that's when you're gonna start getting more of the muscle loss. Because again, it's a very energetically costly tissue type. So your body's going to want to try to conserve the energy, get rid of some of that muscle. That's going to happen more towards the, you know, 48 to 72 hour and beyond point. But that's when you're more getting into the starvation response rather than the fasting response.
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A
So let's talk about the cellular side because I think that's really important and I think that's one of the key sides to this also. And so like you were saying, the observation of your cells and how you were looking at it and seeing the strength and like the mitochondria I'm assuming was probably looking very strong. What kind of overall effect can one expect over time on cellular health with.
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B
It when it comes to fasting? Yeah, there's a lot of great effects of fasting, especially at the cellular level, because fasting really activates like we were talking about before this, you know, longevity bio program, like really optimizing cellular function for survival and for maximum lifespan. And one of the reasons why this happens is because going back to evolution, when you think about what fasting is actually telling your system, it is saying this is a bad environment to have kids in.
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A
Right?
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B
Right. Like there's not even enough fuel around for you. If you were to have kids right now, they would probably die. Right? So what your body does to compensate for that is essentially say, all right, we're going to turn on all these mechanisms that try to keep this generation as healthy, functional, alive, optimized for as long as possible so that they can then find a environment that is rich in nutrients and we can then, you know, have kids, have the next generation, continue the propagation of the species.
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A
Right.
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B
So what ends up happening at the cellular level because of that is that you get this big optimization of functionality on the metabolic level, on the antioxidant, anti inflammatory level, on the, just like general cellular stability level. So you're increasing cellular response, stress response genes. So that's making them more resilient to various stressors of any kind. You're reducing damage that are being created from the mitochondria, the free radicals. Right. At the same time, you're increasing antioxidant production, which is going to further decrease the damage that are being done to your cells. Because again, you're in this state where your cells are kind of like, oh crap, if something goes wrong, we don't have enough energy to make a new cell, so we have to protect and maintain the ones that we have right now as much as possible. You're going to be activating autophagy, which is that cellular cleanup and recycling program. Right. Breaking down these dysfunctional or damaged proteins and organelles into their constitutive parts and then using those parts to create new functional proteins and organelles. So kind of like a cellular refresh, rejuvenation. Right. And then like less, less inflammation is going to be happening in general. You'll get better cell stability in and of itself. So again, increasing the cellular membrane protective functionality. So overall, just like a lot less damage, a lot of cleanup, a lot of repair, a lot of recycling. You're going to get less DNA transcription, less DNA translation, which means less DNA replication, which means less chances for error. Right. Less DNA, less DNA damage, more DNA repair. So it's this really holistic function that's happening.
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A
So like on a cellular level, you've got the cell membrane, which is the, the outer protection of the cell.
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B
Right.
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A
Probably. I would argue that in the mitochondria are, would you say those are the two most important parts of the cell?
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B
Yeah, that and then the nucleus, you know, you gotta shout out to the nucleus.
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A
Yeah, right. It doesn't get any love. Right. So on, on those part portions, like we're saying, so we're looking at aiding all of those areas in Their health and function correct. The mitochondria. So, like, you were talking, and on autophagy, we're just sending in the cleanup crew basically, to start cleaning. And is it regenerating, repairing? Kind of, yeah.
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B
It's basically taking everything that might not be serving the cell that might be dysfunctional. I call it cell junk. And we're just clearing that away, kind of like breaking it down into its functional building blocks. And then we take those building blocks and build new stuff with it that's actually functional, that we actually need to survive. The cool thing about fasting is that it kind of takes your cells from this running dirty mode where, like, they're not paying all that much attention. Like, I can make all the proteins that I want. I can make all the organelles that I want. If mitochondria are spitting off damage like, it's. It's fine. Something goes wrong with this cell, I'll just make a new one.
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A
Right.
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B
And then fasting really flips that on its head, and it's like, well, no, we have to run clean. We have to make sure that we're using all of our resources effectively. We have to make sure that we're not produc know anything more than what we need. No extraneous energy is being wasted, no excess damage is being created so that we can maintain the cell as much as we can.
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A
So when the cells fill up with junk and they become zombie cells or senescent cells, right. Then the free radicals spill out and we got problems.
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B
Yeah, absolutely.
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A
So, one, are we stopping them from becoming zombie and senescent by fasting? And two, let's say that they are. Let's say that you're already having cellular trouble, and then you start fasting. That's going to stimulate the mitophagy and autophagy and everything to kind of get this cleaned up and fixed and get you on the right track.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. In that same vein of we're trying to run clean, right? And we're trying to get rid of all of the waste products and the dysfunctional things. You know, when you. That's at the cellular level, and then, you know, going beyond that to, like, the intracellular level, that's where you're gonna get better cancer, immunosurveillance. Right? You're gonna get that antisenolytic activity to break down those zombie cells. You're gon better sensitivity to what's called apoptosis, which is like, programmed cell death. And that sounds really bad, but actually is very important to prevent things like senolytic cells from happening who have died but won't go away. And so you can kind of kick start, like the, like. Like. No, just go away.
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A
It's.
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B
It's okay. So the time is gone. Yeah, exactly.
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A
Move on and get out of here because what. Just really quickly explain what that, what that zombie cell is when it's sitting there. I mean, it's causing you problems, right? Because. Dead. But it's still there.
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B
Yeah, it's dead. It's still there. And one of the reasons why we call them zombie cells is because not only is it dead and it's still there and it's still alive to a certain degree, but it also releases these senolytic factors that go on to damage other cells and then turn them into senolytic cells. So it's kind of this exponential progression of damage and, you know, cellular conversion. Zombie apocalypse.
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A
Right.
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B
That. That accelerates the aging process.
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A
I just think of Resident Evil because I played too much of that before.
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B
So yeah, sure. Raccoon City, this all up in your body.
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A
I'm imagining everything turning into those zombie cells. And so when. When does that start to occur and why does that start to occur? That, you know, aging of the cells with the decline of the cell health, what causes it?
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B
Yeah, so generally speaking, aging does that.
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A
Right?
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B
You know, senolytic cel, every age, it's just that your body becomes less and less effective as clearing them over time. Because as we get older, we accumulate more DNA damage. You know, we are telomere shortened. We kind of start just losing our edge. We're losing our cellular functionality, and that's information that we can't get back. DNA mutations that are happening that are causing misfolded proteins or proteins that have slight mutations that make them not quite work as well. So all of that accumulation of damage over time is really what we perceive as aging.
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A
Right.
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B
And that's something that senolytic cells benefit from because we don't have as good surveillance and apoptosis ability and then also contribute to. Because they get to convert more cells and it's easier and easier over time. And as they accumulate, then they, you know, get more and more powerful. They're producing more and more of the senolytic factors.
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A
Right.
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B
So it's just kind of an exponential growth curve.
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A
Is there an age where you shouldn't fast or is it okay, or like when. When would you advise somebody to start maybe, you know, messing around with it a little bit and start to implement a little bit? Because obviously, I mean, there could be too Young or is there an age where you're too old to do it as well? Like it's interesting?
- [30:05]
B
Yes, yes to both. Okay, so number one, you don't want to start dabbling and fasting until you are fully grown, right. I would say at least 18. But even when you're talking about brain development, right. That doesn't really finish itself off until around 25. What you see in the, in the literature on animals is that animals that are fasted for the majority of their adult lives, so they always let them reach, you know, growth maturity before they start fasting them. But the earlier that you initiate fasting or caloric restriction, the longer the lifespan extension will be. And that makes sense because you are activating this protective longevity bio program at a younger age so you have more chance to prevent damage from happening. And the more damage you prevent, the less you have to clean up, repair and fix over time. So, you know, the earlier you can initiate a longevity intervention, the more effective it is going to be. Fasting in the older demographics can definitely also present some challenges. Right? Because when you get to, you know, probably an age past 65, 70, something like that, you are going to be dealing with more of the wasting concerns that come along with aging. So sarcopenia, bone loss, things like that. And fasting will not be helpful for those things. Right. Because of all the things. So ironically, the people who could probably get the most benefit from fasting at at least the cellular level are kind of contraindicated or, you know, not advised to do it because it could be done, it could be detrimental to them.
- [31:45]
A
Right. That's, I'm, I'm always of the preventative nature and always check things early, do things early, you know, just be ahead of the game. But then there's, there's always these points where it could be too early, too late. And so that's why I wanted to kind of dig into that with you. One more question on the cellular level before I move. I got the tons of other good stuff. So when we were talking about cellular death and like loss of cell, how many cells do we have in our body? Because I know it's a lot, so throw that number out there. But is the death of the cells normal in the replication or the cellular division? Can you just get into that a little bit so there's an understanding so people don't freak out that they've got dead cells in their body and what that actually means and how normal it is?
- [32:32]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So, number one, the amount of cells that we have in our body is 3.7 trillion, which is, you know, more than the stars in the Milky Way. Right. So like we, we used to say that like, you know, you have an entire galaxy inside of you. Right, right. Yeah, it is, it is super duper cool to honestly, like when you get that number, like, and really wrap it around your brain, you're like, I, I can't even, like, I, I, I can't see that. I don't know.
- [32:57]
A
I got it from your literature and that's why I brought it up, because you sent some of the stuff that you had sent me prior that I was studying. So I wanted you to say it.
- [33:04]
B
Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. And then beyond that, like cell death, especially programmed cell death, apoptosis, this is something that is very normal and it's just a part of our cellular turnover processes. Right. You have cells that kind of, you know, age out of the system on their own. Then there's also a, a replicative limit that cells can reach called the hay flicker limit. And so the amount of times that your cells can replicate is a fixed number because eventually they'll work through all their telomeres or they'll accumulate too much damage and then they won't be able to replicate anymore and they'll just die. In that scenario, you really want them to die because if they don't, then they become like senolytic cells, right? They're, they're around, but they didn't go through apoptosis, the programmed cell death. And so they are kind of like necrotic almost. And they are really contributing to inflammation, they're really contributing to oxidative stress. They're really contributing those senolytic factors that can cause problems. So you really want your cells to, when they reach the end of their natural lifespan, be able to be turned over and, you know, gotten rid of. Apoptosis is also really important because we have pretty sophisticated mechanisms for sensing deleterious mutations within cells that could cause things like cancer.
- [34:23]
A
Right.
- [34:23]
B
So when your cell can sense that those mutations have happened, it will activate apoptosis in order to kill off that cell before it can become a cancer cell. So this is like a really, really important part of just natural cellular turnover and functionality for humans. It's not something to be afraid of.
- [34:41]
A
Cellular mutation is what causes cancer then. Absolutely. Okay. And so obviously we don't want that to happen. But is fasting then going to be a benefit to prevent that from happening?
- [34:52]
B
Yes, definitely. Fasting is very anti mutagenic.
- [34:56]
A
Okay.
- [34:57]
B
Because of kind of what we were talking about before when you start fasting, your cells want to conserve resources, which means they do not want to do a lot of replication. Replication is very energy intensive, Right. Because you have to create a whole new cell. Right. So you need to get all the matter and all the energy and all the resources to do that. So fasting is going to downregulate cellular replication, which also means that it's going to downregulate DNA transcription and translation and telomere shortening and everything that kind of contributes to DNA damage, which then is of course what we eventually call mutation. Okay, Right. So fasting very anti mutagenic, it increases the likelihood of apoptosis because your, your cells are much more vigilant about those mutations because they can't afford to have any non functional cells around, taking up space, creating damage that the body would then have to deal with. So it's very good for cancer surveillance apoptosis and decreasing the amount of mutations via the decrease of DNA damage and cellular replication.
- [36:10]
A
So, and because I, I bring this up because I just want to give people things that they can do in their life that will prevent cancer from starting or at least, you know, mitigate the chances of it happening. And I want to lessen the likelihood. That's, you know, that's why I wanted to dig into that a little bit. We're not talking about cures of cancer or anything, but we're talking about ways to limit the possibility of occurrence, right?
- [36:32]
B
Absolutely. And I would say that fasting definitely fits that mold, especially because we get into the situation of where we're at in the western world right now when it comes to nutrition, which is kind of being in a chronically overfed state, where we are in the past hundred years in terms of nutrition is a complete rarity from an evolutionary point of view. We used to all the time experience long periods of fasting. We used to all the time experience much more pronounced caloric restriction. The whole three meals a day plus snacks thing that we've kind of gotten ourselves into now. And this whole promotion of this idea that, oh, like if you're not constantly eating, then your stomach's gonna be like eating itself.
- [37:17]
A
Right.
- [37:17]
B
And you're gonna be wasting away within hours of not eating. And if you feel any kind of hunger whatsoever, like it's a terrible thing and you're poor and you're like in famine and you know, it's just, it's got a weird societal pressure to it too. Now. That's what I was fed all the time when I was a kid was like you have to always be eating breakfast is the most important meal of the day. And it's all just kind of serial company propaganda unfortunately. And so when you get into these states of, you know, chronic overnutrition, that's putting a big strain on the body because there is this thing in the nutrition world that we call the postprandial state, and that basically means the post eating state. And when you're in the postprandial state, there is a big loss of cellular functionality because you have all of this influx of nutrients and resources that are coming into the body that your body has to deal in order to survive, right? So you know, let's say that you ate a bunch of sugar, right? You're going to get a glucose spike. If your body doesn't divert energy and resources and attention to dealing with that glucose spike, you will literally die. So it's like a, an actual like fight for survival in your body. When you're, when you're eating food like that same thing with cholesterol or triglycerides, like that'll clog up your systems. You could, you know, form a plaque, get a stroke. Like all kinds of crazy stuff can happen if you're not actually paying attention to the nutrients that are coming into the body and getting them where they need to go in a proper manner and maintaining the homeostasis of the system. So it's very energy intensive. You switch completely over from, you know, relax, maintain, protect and repair that you do in more of like a homeostatic or fasting state. And then you enter into purely digestion, absorption, metabolism for survival. You also get this big wave of dietary inflammation that happens. You know, it's foreign molecules that are coming into the body that's automatically going to have an inflammatory response. So the postprandial state is actually like pretty damaging for the body. You're kicking yourself out of that, you know, rest, repair, protect, homeostasis and into this like fight for survival. And when that, that state lasts for around four to six hours after a meal. So when we get into this whole three meals a day plus snacks situation, we are basically constantly in this fight for survival. We're always in this stressed over, overnutritive state. We always have this inflammation that's going on and that ends up totally decreasing your cell's ability to maintain itself, repair itself, protect itself. And you're constantly accumulating damage, you're constantly accumulating all of these like pro growth factors that then contribute to cellular replication, mutation and ultimately cancer.
- [40:02]
A
So when you're in this state, this post feeding state, what is, what is the optimal thing to be doing to lessen that negative impact that it's having on you? Is there a certain protocol that you have, like walking after a meal? Like, like what is it? I mean, I know that's one thing that me and my wife do all the time is try to walk at least 10 minutes after sometimes because I'm working so much and I only eat twice a day, it's hard, but I, we generally do that. Is there anything else? And why is that such a good thing?
- [40:30]
B
Yeah, so walking after a meal is a great way to lower glucose spikes because you're giving the fuel somewhere to go. Right, right. It's not just like, all right, we're taking it up into the cells and we have to convert it into glycogen, but then if the glycogen is too much, then we have to convert it into fat. And then once it's converted into fat, then we have to get it where it needs to go. Right. So you're giving, you're giving your cells more outlets for the energy itself, so you get a lower glucose spike because there's more utilization there.
- [40:56]
A
So you're lessening the work that.
- [40:58]
B
Okay, right, exactly. So you're kind of like walking after a meal is basically, you know, activating some of these fasting like pathways. Right. Because you are creating a negative energy balance that helps to counteract what's happening with all of the food that's coming into the system. So you're taking it from. Okay, it's all profed pro aging pathways and then counterbalancing it with a little bit of, a little bit of energy utilization, a little bit of negative energy balance will activate the fasting pathways. This is also the same principle that Mimeo operates on. So we've shown in our clinical studies that when you take mimeo along with food, you can basically activate these fasting pathways that then act as a counterbalance to the fed pathways even during a meal. So you can activate things like, you know, PPAR alpha and AMP kinase and NRF2 and these other fasting pathways that help to balance out the, the pro growth pro aging pathways like MTOR and insulin and IGF1.
- [42:07]
A
Right, right, right. I love the education, dude. I Wish I had 20 hours with I got something.
- [42:13]
B
You know, you just have to have me back. I know. I'm too delightful. It's, it's true.
- [42:18]
A
Here's a controversial question for you. They're gonna laugh as soon as I say it because this is one of those ones where it's just like the answers are all over the place and it's so confusing and people make up stuff to go along with whatever they want it to be, you know, that tell me what I want to hear, not what I need to hear. What breaks a fast?
- [42:38]
B
Oh, yeah, sure. It takes more than people think it does. It really breaks. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I would say that, you know, by and large it's going to take at least 2 to 300 calories to really break a fast. From a biological level, honestly, it might even be more than that. But you really want to focus on things like glucose. Glucose is going to break a fast because you're going to get a glucose spike and that's really going to, at least in the short term, throw that whole rest repair, homeostasis, fasting pathway stuff out of whack because you're like, oh, there's a bunch of glucose, therefore there's a bunch of fuel. We got to get rid of that, we got to take it up, we gotta spike insulin to be able to control that. So that's really where you're gonna see the big impact of breaking a fast. Other things that are more innocuous are like taking in a little bit of fat. Right. Because your body is already kind of going to be working its way towards ketosis and fat metabolism anyway. If you take, you know, 200 calories of fat into the body from a biochemical standpoint, that's kind of going to be the same system that you were operating in before. It's not going to really cause any kind of shift.
- [43:51]
A
That's what I kind of figured was the fat would be what you would want to go after.
- [43:55]
B
Yeah, and that's generally speaking correct. But something like coffee or tea or you know, like a zero calorie energy drink or something like that, that's not going to break fast. Anything that doesn't have a caloric impact is not going to break a fast.
- [44:11]
A
So like, I don't know, like a eaa, an essential amino acid drinkers, like something that a creatine, those types of things, those aren't going to break a fast, right?
- [44:20]
B
Yeah, no, creatine won't break a fast because creatine by and large is not an energetic contributor.
- [44:26]
A
Right.
- [44:27]
B
It doesn't have like a ton of calories. Your, your body can utilize creatine for fuel, but it's a very complicated pathway and it doesn't like to do it, it. So it's gonna, it's gonna rely more on it's gonna rely more on the internal fat sources.
- [44:40]
A
So what about like for the bodybuilders or the people training, would a scoop of protein powder break?
- [44:45]
B
It depends on how much protein powder. Like a single scoop, that's less than, you know, 100 calories, 200 calories? Probably not with no sugar from like. Yeah, worth no sugar from like a real deal biochemical perspective. From a philosophical perspective, sure. All right. Any, any drop of calories breaks a fat.
- [45:04]
A
You're gonna get the Dr. Extremely angry right here. But I care about the scientist and the doctor's answer, not the WebMDs online. So I appreciate you clearing that up for me. I want to talk about the design and structure of Mimeo. I want to talk about the key ingredients and how they work and why you picked these and, and what you saw in these. That was like the aha moment. Like, okay, I'm on to something here. This is, this is what I was after. Because I know spermidine is one of the big ingredients in there like we were talking about. So I think an education on that would be good. And then the, just the rest of the makeup of the product would be really nice to understand.
- [45:41]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So mimeo, just to, you know, refresh everybody who might be coming in now, it's fasting memetic. And it was designed from seven years of clinical research that I was doing at UC Davis as part of my PhD. And the reason why I was so fascinated with fasting was like we were talking about before, it's this intervention that is the only way that we really know of to reliably extend lifespan in animals and then has this really profound impact on helping to treat, prevent or delay most major diseases without any, anything being added into the body. And what we did there to try and figure out what is actually being activated, what's going on in the human body during a fast to cause all of these beneficial effects. We had people come in fast for 36 hours and we looked at their before and after. And what we saw was that when people fast for 36 hours, number one, their cells become super duper functional. So just like what I saw in my own cells at Stanford, we kind of repeated that experiment. We saw that their cells became more anti inflammatory, more antioxidant, more cardioprotective, more metabolically flexible, all within that 36 hours time span, which is really significant. You do not see that at all in the nutrition world. Right. Usually it's something like we ate strawberries for 12 weeks and you know, maybe Got a little bit less inflammation in the body. So to take already young healthy people and basically turn them into super people in just that one day of intervention, really uncommon. So we wanted to know, okay, well, what's the difference between the baseline state and the fasting state that could be causing these benefits to happen? So we did what's called comprehensive metabolomics, basically looking at all of the small molecule components of the plasma. And what we found was that there were over 300 of these molecules that were significantly elevated during a fast. And when we screened through those molecules, we were able to find this synergistic combination of four of them that when we put it together, could recreate all of the beneficial effects of fasting that we had seen in the cells. So those same anti inflammatory, antioxidant, metabolic and cardio protective effects. And then because of course me super interested in longevity, right. We also did a lifespan extension analysis and found that we could extend the lifespan of animal models by 96% just through supplementation.
- [48:12]
A
Wow.
- [48:13]
B
So that was kind of where mimeo came from. We actually looked at what happens in the human body during a fast and found these specific bioactive molecules that, that had these synergistic effects together and could recreate the beneficial effects of fasting, but just through supplementation and without having to fast.
- [48:32]
A
That's absolutely amazing. So tell me about spermidine a little bit. I mean, because I started to learn about it, I'd say about a year ago, and I was just like, oh, wow, why haven't I heard about this before? And there's a lot of different types of benefit to it that I, I think a lot of people aren't even really aware of it. I mean, aside from in our group and you know, in more of the biohacking world and, and things like that. But in the supplement world or the everyday world, a lot of people have not heard of it because I bring it up a lot and people are like, huh, sperm.
- [49:03]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [49:04]
A
Right, yeah, it sounds like that, or I think of like a flavor chewing gum almost, you know. Exactly. Why is it so remarkable? What, what is it about it that that really works?
- [49:14]
B
So the thing with spermidine is that it's really, really well known for being an activator of aut that's one of its primary roles in the body. And we're still kind of teasing out what the exact mechanism behind that is. But from what we know right now, spermidine is an inhibitor of, an inhibitor of autophagy. So, you know, it's a Fun little like, you know, biochemistry feedback loop equation.
- [49:41]
A
Right.
- [49:42]
B
And of course we already talked about why autophagy is so important. But that's the main mechanism of action for sperm, spermidine is that it activates autophagy. It also has some anti inflammatory properties. It's also been shown to help kind of enhance cognition as well, especially in cases of dementia or cognitive decline. So what it's really doing there is promoting that cellular recycling, cellular repair process of autophagy. And that's of course really highly associated with fasting as well.
- [50:10]
A
You know, I was thinking about something earlier that I wanted to ask you about and a couple aspects with fasting in general. One was somebody that's like diabetic. What would you say to them if they're wanting to fast?
- [50:26]
B
It depends on what type of diabetic you are. Type 1 diabetics, typically I would not recommend fasting for them. Type 2 diabetics, however, they have pretty good efficacy for fasting because it kind of naturally helps to control blood sugar levels. Type 2 diabetes of course is, is nutritional diabetes. Right. So it's more about not an inability to create insulin, but having a high degree of insulin resistance. And fasting is really well known to help increase insulin resistance because you're, you know, just helping your body resensitize itself to insulin and glucose with the fasting related absence of those two things, for instance.
- [51:10]
A
And I was thinking about this as well. Well, I have to take an SGLT2 inhibitor, Jardiance. Right. So I'm urinating glucose out like crazy.
- [51:19]
B
Sure.
- [51:20]
A
And that's actually for a heart, it's not for any type of diabetic, but for a low rejection fraction in the heart, but obviously multiple benefits there. So would something like mimeo fasting be okay for somebody on those types of medications? Is it totally fine? Is there any interactions or any medications people need to be aware of with like a heart condition or any other conditions with fasting? Does it or it's perfectly okay and actually would be beneficial?
- [51:46]
B
Yeah, those are really good questions. We do, we have not seen any side effects with any of the mimeo ingredients with or like any drug interaction. The cool thing about mimeo is that since all of these molecules are naturally produced in the human body, they're very, very safe. They have a great safety profile across, you know, 100 different clinical studies. There's really never been a severe adverse effect reported from any of these molecules. So they're highly safe. No drug interactions as far as we know of right now in the clinical data. And Your body just kind of inherently knows how to take them up, utilize them, metabolize them, break them down in a very safe way because it's part of their biology. And that's what I think is the really fun and interesting part of the biomimetic approach that we're doing, is that everything that we, we discover from this research of actually discovering human biology and finding ways to recreate it is going to be supernatural, super safe and super effective.
- [52:48]
A
For somebody taking mimeo, is there a certain type of diet that would be better to make it function better? So for instance, would a ketogenic diet be better if you're on it, or would you want to limit carbohydrates? Is a higher protein diet better on it or does it even matter matter?
- [53:04]
B
So the really cool thing is that we have done three clinical studies with the mimeo formulation so far. And in all of those studies we have not had anyone alter their diet or lifestyle in any way, shape or form. And we have gotten some really great clinical data off of that. So in our first clinical study, we basically had people come in either standardized breakfast alongside a placebo control, looked at their cellular functionalities, then had those same people come back after a washout period, eat that same breakfast. But then with supplementation with Mimeo, what we saw there was that when people ate the standardized breakfast with the placebo control, they had this big loss in cellular functionality, right, because it's the postprandial state. So they were more pro inflammatory, they were less antioxidant, they were less cardioprotective, they were less metabolically flexible. But when we had them eat that same meal, but with Mimia, we were not only able to prevent all of that loss of function, but then actually add gains of function on top of that. That mimicked what we saw during a fast. So instead of being pro inflammatory, they became anti inflammatory and antioxidant and cardio protective. So that was really, really cool to see that you can activate these fasting pathways at the same time as these fed pathways and really get these fasting like benefits without having to fast. Then in our other two studies, we did a clinical case study with conjunction with Mount Sinai, looking at eight weeks of supplementation with mimeo. Again like no diet or lifestyle change. And there we saw really great improvements to a lot of metabolic markers. Better triglyceride levels, cholesterol levels, lower LDL, higher HDL, better glucose levels, lower HbA1c levels. We got a 50% increase in testosterone levels in just eight weeks. Free testosterone so like the good stuff, right?
- [54:57]
A
The stuff that matters.
- [54:58]
B
And then even more importantly, we got a two and a half year reduction in biological age in just that eight week time period.
- [55:06]
A
Again, huge. In only eight weeks.
- [55:07]
B
In only eight weeks, yeah, it's really crazy. And then our latest one randomized double blind, placebo controlled study. So gold standard, what we saw there was eight weeks of supplementation with mimeo was able to recreate a lot of those metabolic effects. So better glucose levels, better cholesterol levels, lower cellular stress levels, lower inflammatory levels levels. But then also we had really significant impacts on appetite suppression. So we were able to help people have better hunger control. Less hunger on a day to day basis, less distraction from cravings, less food noise. They had a much easier time eating only when hungry and then also improved their satiety, so they got fuller, faster and saved for a little longer even when they did eat. So, you know, all of these things together are like the benefits of fasting, eating even when you're just eating normally. So there doesn't seem to be any diet that you need to be on in order to, you know, make the, make the formulation. It's just whatever you're doing, mimeo is going to help.
- [56:05]
A
So it's got an effect on ghrelin essentially. Right.
- [56:08]
B
It's actually one of the molecules that we found from the fasting data set is oleo ethanolamide and OEA for sure, because that's a tongue twister. And what we found there was that OEA is involved in the gut brain axis where it essentially helps to stimulate, stimulate satiety, suppress appetite. It's a PPAR alpha activator, which means that it activates fat burning and fat metabolism specifically, so helping cells shift over from that glucose metabolism of the fed state to the fat metabolism of the fasted state. And that is the thing that really seems like it's having the impact on the appetite suppression elements of mimeo and like the metabolic balancing effect.
- [56:52]
A
So the right way to control hunger and turn it off as opposed to ozempic.
- [56:56]
B
Yeah, exactly. And what's really interesting is that this is basically, you know, your body is natural ozempic.
- [57:02]
A
Right.
- [57:03]
B
Because it is there to suppress hunger during longer stages of fasting. What's really interesting about OEA is that canonically in the literature it's always been associated with the fed state. It's like OEA increases after a meal, which makes sense because your body's telling itself it's full. Right. What we found was that it's even more highly expressed during a 36 hour fast. And we think that that's a metabolic adaptation because it doesn't do your body any good when you're fasting to be doubled over in hunger pains and unable to move and distracted by cravings. Right. You need to be focusing on, go find those berries, go hunt that gazelle. And we think that oea is the thing that's doing that.
- [57:46]
A
Man. Telling you, man, this is such a good amount of information in such a short amount of time. You are literally a genius.
- [57:56]
B
No, it's just. It's my life. I'm just a nerd.
- [57:58]
A
No, but it's a testament to, to how much time and effort you've put into this because you're not an old guy. I mean, how old are you?
- [58:05]
B
I'm 35.
- [58:06]
A
Okay. So for a 35 to be. And, and that doesn't mean that anybody that's young should not be brilliant. Because. Because it's a lot easier to learn the younger you are and how your brain works.
- [58:17]
B
And so yeah, brain neuroplasticity.
- [58:19]
A
Yes, absolutely. And I think a lot of people don't realize that. They think that everybody has to be old to be wise. And it's just not true. And I think it's a testament to how much time and effort you've put into this. And I just want to thank you for actually utilizing all of that knowledge and brain power into something that is really going to make a difference for people. And, and you. The, the reasoning behind it and the motive is so just like humanity driven based on the improvement of life. And I can see that with you ever since I met you. And that's why I wanted to get you here and talk to you and spotlight that because we need more people like you that do what you do and provide that to people. So I guess really I just want to thank you for your efforts, your work, the knowledge you just fed everybody because this was like a small college course in an hour.
- [59:07]
B
Yeah. So condensing my. The past. Oh boy. At this point like 10 years of my life into a single talk.
- [59:15]
A
It's amazing. I, I've got a lot more for you. We're going to talk about and we're going to record again because we're going to have to do several parts of this. But I'm going to, I'm going to get a lot more info out of you on a personal level so I can start conveying this too. But love it. So tell everybody where they can follow any of your work. Any. Do you have any publications, anything People can go check out and, and I'll tell them about my coupon for Mimeo.
- [59:36]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So if they want to learn more, they can go to mimeohealth.com that's M I M I O health.com and you can read all about the science there. We've got all of our published papers on the science page. We've got all the data laid out in these like fun graphs that are like way more consumer friendly than I am when I talk. So it's a great place to learn. And then, yeah, if you want to try out the products, you can tell them the discount code.
- [60:02]
A
Absolutely. So like I said, I was blessed enough to find Dr. Chris and get the help that I needed to be able to fast and do it. And so, you know, being taking it for a while now, he graced me with a coupon for everybody which I've been putting out recently since I just got it. But it'll be in the link below. It'll save everybody 20 off. So get started with it. It'll help you get going on. And I would say, you know, you can run this long term, right? I mean, you want to stay on it.
- [60:29]
B
Oh yeah, absolutely safe. Yeah. That's what we saw when we did the lifespan extension study where we got that 96 lifespan extension that was lifelong supplementation with Mimeo. And you know, we have seen over time, even in our clinical studies, you can just see the trends improve as you, as you continue to stay on the product. So there's really no need for cycling and it is designed to be a daily supplement.
- [60:55]
A
Dr. Chris, man, thank you for coming and seeing me. Me absolute pleasure. Master class. I can't say enough for you. You need to have your own. But we'll talk about that later. But. All right, everybody, that wraps up another one. Make sure to check my description below. Get yourself that 20 off coupon. Start fasting without the fasting. Take control of your health. Live longer. Be healthier. Dylan Gemelli and Dr. Chris Rhodes signing off. Sam.