← The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #91 Featuring Zane Griggs! The TRUTH about carbohydrates! NO HOLDS BARRED discussion on the polarization of carbs and HUGE misconceptions surrounding them!
01:01:30
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- [00:17]
A
When we think of health, most think of diet, working out or even stress levels. I, like so many others, overlooked the crucial importance of my mitochondria which when your mitochondria work better, everything works better. Maintaining muscle gets harder with age and cellular energy plays a significant role in strength and function. My world turned upside down when I learned about mitopure gummies. Mitopure gummies are longevity gummies and the only clinically proven form of Urolithin A shown in human studies to help renew mitochondrial function, which is designed to support cellular energy so you feel stronger and more vibrant as you age. They are my key component to longevity and quality of life. Not only do they taste great, but they are sugar and allergan free non GMO and Clean Label Project certified. Support your cells and how you age with Might Appear gummies from timeline. Visit timeline.com Dylan Gemelli to save up to 39% off your might appear gummies. That's timeline.com backslash Dylan Gemelli all right everybody, welcome back to the Dylan Gemelli Podcast. So I have a good friend here with me today that is going to shake some things up so to speak. But he is super know I've had the pleasure of speaking with him now multiple times. We did an Instagram live that I felt was pretty impactful. I really, really like his dedication and approach to helping people, challenging things, asking questions. Everything that I believe in, he believes in. And so my goal at all times is to bring people on, like my guest today, that have different outlooks, mindsets and can back it up. And their motive is simply to help people. And that's why he's here today, flew in to see me, which I thank you for as well. Cause I know that's always tricky. But he's been, you know, helping people as a personal trainer since 1998. He's got an amazing podcast, Healthy After 50. He he has really reached so many people over many years and I feel like he's making a really strong impact right now, which I want to spotlight. So my friends welcome Zane Griggs.
- [02:22]
B
Thank you Dylan. Appreciate it. Happy to be here.
- [02:25]
A
Thanks for coming to see me bro. I appreciate it. I like I said, and I've told you off camera multiple times, I am very much looking forward to this. I was excited to have you here. I think you're a very quality human and I think that your motives fall in line with mine. I don't necessarily agree with everything anybody that comes on here does, but I'm always wanting to learn from somebody else. And I feel like you have a lot of keys that we need to discuss and provide to people. And I want to get into all of your different types of mindsets that you've changed with your diet over the years, things that you've been working on. You have a huge knowledge base and we're gonna. I'm gonna drain you for all of it.
- [03:05]
B
Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, happy to do it.
- [03:08]
A
Let's talk about first.
- [03:10]
B
Just.
- [03:10]
A
I, I don't like to do everybody's. How did you get into this? But I. When you're talking about fitness and nutrition, it is important to get a little bit of background on you, how you've learned what you're, you know, what you've gone through to get to where you're at today.
- [03:23]
B
Sure. Well, I was, I was really curious about diet and, and fitness early on. Like in my 20s, I was, I seen my relatives basically struggling with metabolic disease, and I didn't want that to be my future for some reason. My 20s, I got a sense of mortality.
- [03:36]
A
Yeah.
- [03:37]
B
And I started playing around with. I started with a vegan vegetarian diet back and forth in the, in my 20s, became a trainer in 98 like you said, and started using low carb probably right around 2002 for my clients who wanted to lose weight. Okay. And then so this, that was over 20 years ago, and started playing with intermittent fasting later on top of that with in 2010. So by the time I got to into my 40s in 2010, I was, I was. Had a little bit of pretty much a low carb diet with intermittent fasting, lots of fasted workouts, and it was cranking that for about 10 years almost until I kind of hit a wall. And I just kind of, it was like, basically, I can tell you cortisol was, was too high. Right. You know, it was too much stress hormone, not sleep, was not great. Thyroid was working too hard. So I had all the signs of high metabolic stress. And I realized, okay, well, everything I've been doing to, to kind of, I think, you know, kind of crank everything harder was catching up with me. It was a combination of age and time. And I think if I'd been younger and smarter, I might have figured it out. But I think age helped me have to make this decision, like, really take a good look at myself and say, what am I doing? And is this the best strategy? And that's why I had to kind of reset everything. Yeah. So that's kind of where I am now. Become. Coming through a few years of Reset.
- [04:58]
A
In your view, what does it mean, low carb? Is that like a hundred grams of carbs? Is that like 20 grams of carbs? What's the definition of low carb?
- [05:07]
B
So technically, of course, there's different, you know, divisions of it as people die via Pluto, carnivore, all that, but technically what it is supposed to be is about 25% of calories or less. Okay. Being coming from carbohydrates. Now, our studies that we have out there, not to, not to confuse the issue, but we have studies out there where they say, oh, a low carb or a low fat diet. And some of these studies, they just, they use those terms, but they aren't really sticking to a metric. All right, you'll see a low carb versus a high carb diet, and it's a 55% carb diet versus a 40% carb diet. Well, that's not really much of a switch. And you're not gonna see a lot of changes even with low fat. They'll say low fat coming from, you know, 40, 45% fat to 34% or 30% fat. Well, the average American is eating 35 or so, 40% fat. So what's 30% fat's not really low fat.
- [05:59]
A
Right.
- [05:59]
B
To me, but those are the kind of studies. So when we see these studies, it becomes very confusing. That's why it's so confusing, because it seems to be very arbitrary term. Yes. And, but generally in the, in the health space, nutrition space, the practitioners would say Low carb is 25% or less. And then of course, keto would be like, usually it's 50 grams, but usually like 10% of calories or less. Whoa. You know, so really super low, but that's generally kind of the ballpark is 25% elastic calories.
- [06:31]
A
What I think would be good is because once again, these terms, ketogenic, carnivore, vegan, vegetarian, I, I, I swear these terms get thrown around a lot, but I don't think people know what that actually entails or means.
- [06:46]
B
So.
- [06:46]
A
And we don't have to spend an hour on one diet, but could you give like your breakdown on just a few of these? What is keto? What is, is carnivore like, what does this entail?
- [06:56]
B
Well, keto really takes low carb down to a level where, you know, it's about 10%. Someone say 10% of calories. Some just use a, a straight across like 50 grams or less. For most people, that's, you're in the ballpark of both of Those and the purpose being. And a lot of that, those carbs are often to make sure you don't hit, you know, go too high. Is a lot of vegetables really nothing what's too carb rich. And so you have this higher fat. So keto's supposed to really increase fat. So it's not just the carb level. But ideally you have a fat makes up the predominant amount of the calories, not, not protein.
- [07:37]
A
Oh.
- [07:37]
B
And then you'll hear them argue within the keto space as well that someone might be say oh, you have too much protein, you need more fat. And so there's this tug of war between how much protein is appropriate because if it goes too high, some of it may be turned into glucose through gluconeogenesis or the fat needs to be higher to create more ketones. And so there's a, there's, there's nuance within ketogenic where there's a bit of a, again some disagreement. This is normal whether someone should be having a 65, 70% of their calories coming from fat or it's okay at downrun 50, 55 and you have 25% protein. So there's a little bit of that back and forth. And some will argue one is better than the other for, for ketosis but the carbs stay low. Carnivore is generally speaking zero carb. And then you know, so it's basically. And that may, for some may include high fat, zero carb, dairy. So like a cheese possibly or, but primarily it's meat and fat basically butter, things like that. There is even a, A, a degree of that which sylvan has to make it even harder. Right. The lion diet, which is meat, salt and water and you know, I mean, yeah, so it's like, it's, it's, it's like it's really a bare bones and understand for elimination diet someone who's, who's encountering a lot of inflammation. Michaela Peterson is the one who kind of coined that because she was dealing with rheumatoid arthritis and she's trying to reduce inflammation. So she was really the big proponent of the lion diet. But even recently I've seen she has added in some other foods like sweet potato, mango and coconut. But that was basically the purpose is elimination diet. Let's get rid of anything that may be irritating the gut. It may be causing inflammation, reset the brain. If you've got some sort of food addiction and there's always those little factions within carnivore saying oh you shouldn't have dairy. You can't have dairy. You can't have. And so it's. But it's pretty much just meat and fat.
- [09:42]
A
Too much.
- [09:43]
B
It's a lot. It's a lot. You know, vegan. When I was doing vegan back in the 90s, so back then, vegetarian, we didn't. We didn't have eggs. That was like a lacto ova vegetarian. They had to say lacto ova if you had milk and eggs and then pescatarian. But it was just like you had a little bit of maybe some. Some cheese here and there. But the vegans were like, straight up, obviously, just no. No animal whatsoever. So when I was doing that diet, I basically ran to the ground, like, with my immune system. I did it for three and a half years and I just got weak. I lost a lot of muscle, a lot of weight, was hungry all the time, kind of tired.
- [10:23]
A
Yeah.
- [10:25]
B
I wasn't recovering, but I was having to eat constantly. So I got this virus that my doc said, you know what, your immune system's a little low. I think it's your diet.
- [10:31]
A
How was your training on that hyperdime?
- [10:33]
B
It was. I had to back off. I mean, I had to, like, I couldn't train as often. I was still in my 20s, so I was. I could know. We can abuse ourselves in our twenties. Sure. We could. We could take a beating. But I was just very thin. Yeah. I added, in some way, protein. Some salmon and some eggs, which a lot of people say, oh, that sounds like vegetarian. It wasn't then. It wasn't vegetarian then, but a little bit of fish whey and eggs. And I felt like my brain lit up within a. Within a week. Right. You know, it's just like everything. The fat came back in. The protein was there. I felt myself recovering better. I was sleeping better. I was. I wake up in the morning and just didn't even reach for coffee. Like, I went three days without coffee and didn't even realize it. It's just one of those things where it's like, oh, I was definitely missing this. So it's another way I had to learn the hard way, you know?
- [11:16]
A
Yeah. That deprivation, man.
- [11:18]
B
Yeah. For some reason, I tend to gravitate to these things.
- [11:21]
A
Yeah. Hey, I've done it. You don't even want to know. We'll get into that. We'll get into that later. Mine's a brutal. What about, like a Paleo diet? What is that? Is that lower carb or what? What is that?
- [11:33]
B
It tends to be lower carb, but not as not like keto, but it's a little more like going back to what would have been available. Paleolithic. Right. So very whole food is a good way to look at it. So very whole food diet. So plenty of meat, saturated fat, maybe some tubers, maybe some roots and fruits as I say, you know. Got it. And some leaves thrown in there probably, but mostly roots and fruits. So contra gatherer kind of diet is what you think of. Yeah. And so it's a good way to clean up the diet as well without going in in too much of an extreme one way or the other.
- [12:10]
A
And then lastly, cuz this is the one where what I find most people go to is, is the Mediterranean diet. Well they'll just say we'll just do a Mediterranean diet. I get that all the time. If, if people are trying to go, I disagree with that highly. But I want your thoughts on it. Cuz to me that's like huh. When I hear that it's really, it's.
- [12:28]
B
Really broad and the thing is it's a Mediterranean diet. I really was, was popularized through marketing as a way to, to market olive oil. So they, the olive oil companies invite these doctors out to like the south of France basically for a nice little vacation. Oh, come out here and we'll, we'll put you up in, in the south of France and we'll let you taste all these olive oils and we'll tell you how healthy these olive oils are for you. And then you can go back and tell everybody how healthy. And then so basically that created this olive oil campaign to sell this olive oil from Spain and Italy and France and so forth. So it's, it was, and again it was somewhere in the Mediterranean but they basically flew these doctors out. And that was, that was, I think that was in the maybe the 70s or so 80s maybe. But it was the beginning of a marketing campaign for the olive oil. And then that's when you see all these articles from the Mediterranean diet and you put enough money behind something, get some doctors on board, have some articles written and there you go, you've got a Mediterranean diet. Now are there worse ways to eat if you actually ate the way people eat on the Mediterranean? No, it's a great way to eat. I mean it's a little bit everything. It's like Greece. You know, we have two blue zones in the Mediterranean, right? Yeah, yeah. So, so why you know, Sardinia and, and Ithik or wherever that, that little Greek island is. I can't remember on top of my head right now. But basically you have you have meat, you have olives, you have garlic, you have olive oil, you have, I mean, there's homemade bread, there's all sorts of things. It's a, it's a very broad diet. Fruit, obviously. It's all whole food, though, and it's kind of hard to go wrong if you're eating all whole food, in my opinion. Yeah, I agree. You know, you know, but, but I don't know how many, depending the ratios you could have in that are so nondescript.
- [14:19]
A
It's all over the place.
- [14:20]
B
You could be eating 80% carb in Mediterranean or you could be eating 80% fat Mediterranean. I mean, if you really tried. But it's just, it's, it's, it's a free for all. It sounds like, it sounds really tasty, but I don't know how much of a change you could make. If you're healthy and you're eating this broad diet, this whole food, you're probably great. If you're metabolically unhealthy, you might need a little more of an intervention, in my opinion, to change things at a, at a distinctive pace. Right. You can get healthier over time with whole food only. For sure. It would definitely change your, the way you live. Change, change your health. But if someone's like, I really need to lose a hundred pounds or I need to reverse di diabetes, you, you may want to have a little more oversight over ratios in my opinion of how much fat, protein and carbs you're eating just to, to help move that along at a pace that, that keeps you interested, you know, keeps you on board.
- [15:17]
A
I'm sure you noticed this, but every single diet we're running down here, aside from that Mediterranean one, is it's got something in common. It's always low carb. So everything is, it's lower end carb. Is there a high carb diet that, that you ever talk about or that's out there or is it.
- [15:30]
B
I talk. I mean, I'm personally talking about a high carb diet right now, but is.
- [15:34]
A
There one named diet that's out there that's higher?
- [15:37]
B
The closest one that was popular right around 2010 was called the Zone Diet. Barry Se. Remember? I remember that. Yes. It was 40, 30, 30. So it was, it was 40 carb, 30 protein, 30 fat. Great for an athlete. Yeah, Everybody else should put weight on a hundred percent.
- [15:55]
A
I'll tell you what, those bars, they were not good for you, but man, they tasted good. Those chocolate peanut butter went on bars. They were so good.
- [16:03]
B
They were a treat. They were I mean, they sold the bar, but if you were to eat whole food that way, I mean, there's plenty of.
- [16:09]
A
I don't know.
- [16:10]
B
I think it's a. It has to be a very active, lean athlete. Okay. To make that work, in my opinion.
- [16:17]
A
I agree.
- [16:19]
B
And we can get into why, but I would. I. That's basically. You're the middle. But there's probably a lot of studies have been done in that middle section that it seems like the swampland of macros where it's all kind of merged to almost the same and yeah, most people wouldn't survive there with all the processed food we have.
- [16:42]
A
You're right. Right.
- [16:43]
B
If it was a whole food diet. Be one thing.
- [16:45]
A
But there's been so many damn diets. I remember south beach diet. I mean.
- [16:49]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [16:50]
A
So many things that were just going through the pipeline that were marketing.
- [16:55]
B
That's a marketing one for you, of course. My gosh.
- [16:58]
A
Well, I want to talk to you about one more before I get into more aspects of carbs. This was my lane that I lived in hell for like 15 years or 20 years, which was just a straight low fat diet, which to me. We'll talk about this later, you and me. I feel like this is the worst thing ever. Personally, I was as miserable. I think that the net. The need for fats and overall health in terms of like our cellular membranes and brain function. I'm not saying I. I disagree with that carnivore diet where it's so high in fat or I don't like that either, but I feel like just. Just eliminating it, I feel like is to me, it's one of the worst things ever for long term health.
- [17:41]
B
How low was your fat? You were tracking, right?
- [17:44]
A
15, 20 grams? Max.
- [17:46]
B
15 or 20 grams? Yeah, max. Oh, wow.
- [17:49]
A
It was only coming from peanut butter. Only for years.
- [17:53]
B
Yikes.
- [17:54]
A
And I'm a nutritionist, but I. One that suffered an eating disorder for many years and a complete fear even though I was teaching people the polar opposite.
- [18:02]
B
That would be like a spoonful, though.
- [18:04]
A
It wasn't anything.
- [18:05]
B
I mean, that's 15 to 20 grams of peanut butters.
- [18:07]
A
Nothing.
- [18:08]
B
It's nothing. It's like a teaspoon. It's nothing.
- [18:11]
A
So. Wow. Now I eat about 130 a day.
- [18:16]
B
Okay.
- [18:16]
A
Yeah, we'll talk about me later. But when you interview me.
- [18:20]
B
But sure.
- [18:21]
A
I feel I learned so much over that experience. I feel like that's some of the reason I had some heart conditions. I feel like it's a reason why I had so many blood markers. Off. I know. It's why I was a crabby prick a lot of the time and couldn't focus and my whole world changed when I made that change. But I want your thoughts on why that was brought into existence and why it was so, you know, out there for so long. And what's your thought on keeping fat super low?
- [18:48]
B
Well, that's a, that, that's very low. Long term. Yes. You definitely have some, some downside to it. And peanut butter, whole things. Not even a very nutritious fat. Horrible. Absolutely. It's like there's no, no nutrient value in that fat. I'm surprised you were able to get protein in with that little amount of fat. But I think there are. When I think of low fat that's somewhat sustainable, like what I would use for someone who's the way I'm. The way I'm thinking now as far as someone who would reverse. And we can get into this. But reversing as an intervention to reverse disease or lose weight, you can use low fat. But fat, low fat would be more like a 15%.
- [19:32]
A
Yeah.
- [19:32]
B
Of calories, not 15 grams. There's a big difference there. And so 50% of calories on the low end would definitely make a big lever pull while getting enough, enough fat to maintain some of those functions that you're mentioning like brain function, hormones. And even then it would be an intervention. It would be something you'd toggle up and down from. You go too low. I mean, I think that was. That sounds like a bodybuilder kind of like. Yeah, gym bro. Kind of. Yeah. Diet. And I think where we're sacrificing a goal of an aesthetic over health. And that is dangerous. Yeah. I mean, that's what you said you had a bit of an eating disorder because you can't eat a normal natural diet like that.
- [20:24]
A
No. A lot of egg whites, a lot of fat free Greek yogurt, a lot of protein powder, a lot of like the lowest fat fish. So like cod, for example, or like the leanest cuts of chicken that you could possibly find. That type of thing is how I got all the protein because I had to make sure, doing all the training and the working out and that there were steroid use and everything. So you combine all that together and it's a recipe for disaster. Yeah.
- [20:48]
B
I mean, organ dysfunction. Oh, yeah. All sorts of things going on there.
- [20:51]
A
I had to re. I had to reverse a lot of things, man.
- [20:53]
B
Did you have any heart palpitations with it?
- [20:55]
A
Yeah, I still am kind of like recovering from it. Still to this day, everything's back in line now. But you know, to reverse that up for all that long time and term is not easy. It's a lot of long term damage.
- [21:09]
B
Yeah. Whether when you go super. A lot. Some people feel the heart palpitations from super low carb as well. They just, they just get in that arrhythmia of, of, of carnivore or very low carb. They're more sensitive to it. Low fat. I mean the, the heart likes burning fat.
- [21:26]
A
Yeah.
- [21:26]
B
Now does it mean it only needs fat? It works well with carbs as well, but it needs both to keep rhythm. Electrolytes. That's it, Electrolytes, organ function. I mean all these things that we're, we're not. We have all three macronutrients for a reason.
- [21:43]
A
Thank you.
- [21:44]
B
And we can toggle them and we can play with them. Eliminating them is going to have, it's going to have consequences. And we see this because when we eliminate either carbs or fats, when we have too little for what our body's needs are, we can make each of them. Our bodies can use protein and shaving off some glycerol to make glucose glycerol from triglycerides to make glucose. And our bodies can make, use carbs or glucose to make saturated fat which can then if it needs to be converted to monosaturated fat. So our bodies can make either one. Yeah. And so if we're at a point where our body has, is working really hard to make the majority of either one of those either carbs or glucose or fat, we're at a point that is not, in my opinion, long term sustainable. A little bit of that on the edge and that ebbs and flows a little is one thing. But where it's such an extreme, where the majority of the fat that you needed was being converted from the carbs you were eating and what little fat you were getting had very little nutritional benefit. Like unlike butter or like Nutella, which would have some nutrients in, in that fat, whereas peanut butter is just void of everything. Benef.
- [23:01]
A
I went back and kind of did the math because I wasn't doing it properly. So I was eating about 14 to 15 servings of vegetables a day right around there.
- [23:10]
B
Wow.
- [23:11]
A
And then it was like two and a half to three servings of oatmeal with the protein powder in it. Same with the yogurt protein powder in it. So you see the pattern. I'm trying to get it however I can here.
- [23:21]
B
And my gut must have been it was terrible.
- [23:24]
A
And I was really doing such high carbs and didn't realize it because I was having raisins, dried fruit, I had apricots cuz my potassium was low. So all of these like high carbohydrate. Even though it's sugar, it's natural sugar. I was eating a lot of fruit and I, I love fruit. I'm not saying don't eat it, but I was eating too much, didn't compensate the hunger and the sweet tooth that I had from not eating any fat.
- [23:47]
B
And yeah, long term, I think that was the thing. And I think like you probably could have used that over a six or eight week period to get really shredded before you stepped on a stage or something like that.
- [23:59]
A
Right?
- [24:00]
B
You could have done that without a lot of harm, but it still wouldn't have been good. But it would have been, it wouldn't have been as harmful. Like it's like, okay, we know this is short term, here's where we're going to move. And you, you would have attained the goal and then moved on. But since you were trying to stay there, that's where you started getting the, the body starts adapting to these diets and our adaptations. People say oh, you gotta adapt to the super low fat or adapt to the super low carb. The adaptations are not ideal.
- [24:28]
A
No, no they're not.
- [24:30]
B
No they're not, they're not ideal. You have thyroid issues, you have stress hormones elevated, you have all sorts of things that take place in the mitochondria that as well when, when it's trying to make energy or make ATP, when you're missing these long term there's adaptations that might make it seem like it's gotten easier to do. But what's actually happening is your body's adapting in a way that hormonally that has long term risks to again like I said, thyroid, how well you're making energy, how much of that energy is being burned up as heat or is it actually being converted to ATP or the, you know, the cellular energy that we need or how much is being stored as fat. And that's where the danger comes with, with the difference between a short, extreme diet in short term versus long term, short term it can be tolerated before your body starts adapting to it. And that's why a lot of bodybuilders carb cycle, they go in and out so they, they get the benefit of the shock but they don't fully adapt to it to the change. And so by not adapting they get the benefit of the, of that the benefit of the change before the body starts saying, oh, we need to compensate. Right. Same with low calorie. Yeah. You know, you adapt to low calorie diet. That means your, your metabolism dropped. Yeah. And then it no longer works, does it? Right, that's another one. So, so these adaptations in any of these extreme diets, they make it so that your body isn't under as much and what it feels like immediate stress doing it. But long term, there is some stress or some underlying stress at a cellular level that it's actually causing. And that's where people start seeing kind of the long term. Like it shows up maybe six months a year, some people three years later. But I'm talking to a lot of people now that are, are finding that they stayed on in these diets, some of these diets too long. Yep.
- [26:33]
A
Why are carbohydrates so polarizing?
- [26:36]
B
Why?
- [26:37]
A
Like what, what is it, what is it that has gotten people so triggered that I see that you deal with or just scared? Like what, what are the reasons why.
- [26:47]
B
Oh boy, you know, I can. We have. And we have an epidemic of metabolic disease. Yeah. And we need to find someone to blame. And so this is a new thing. So like 1900, 1901, the obesity rate in the, in the US was 1% and now it's 40. So type 2 diabetes, maybe even in even a hundred years ago, 1930 impacted maybe 1/3 of 1% of the population. Now it's diagnosed 12, 13%, but undiagnosed at least double that.
- [27:19]
A
Right.
- [27:20]
B
And then pre diabetic people moving in that direction, you're probably looking at 40% of the population very easily. So fatty liver disease, liver, Fatty liver disease used to be just for alcoholics. Now non alcoholic fatty liver disease, which has come from our diet is now the primary reason. So when we get a liver transplant and it's the primary driver of fatty liver, it's non alcoholic fatty liver. It's from processed, it should be processed food. Fatty liver is what? And that's good. So it's really. We have. But we had to find a culprit. Right. And so like we know the story with Anel Keys. Back in the 40s and 50s, you started blaming saturated fat, heart disease and saturated fat for all these things, which we know was, was just, was just his way of looking for a way to be the hero basically and to put himself in prominence and, and find it. And he manipulated his dad to make that happen. But then we had to, we had to find a new, we had to find a new Villain, A new villain. As we came into like low fat. We had the low fat, 70s, 80s, 90s really. And then we, everything flipped and then we had to go to. Carbs are bad. Well, processed food is bad. But if we look back over the last, oh, 10,000 years, we've all been eating a lot of carbohydrates for the last 10,000 years without an epidemic of metabolic disease. And we can look at current indigenous populations, like whether they're in South America, New Guinea, Africa, where their indigenous diet is maybe somewhere between 8 and 15% fat all the time, and their carb intake could be more from 60 to 85%. But it's what they gather from their environment. It's whole food and they have no metabolic disease. There's actually one in South America, in Bolivia. They have the best, the best hearts in the world that they found. They did CACs on calcium scans and they have the best, the lowest rates of calcified arteries for over 40 year olds and then over, even over 65, lowest rates in the world that they found. And there, there's like 70, 70% of their diet comes from carbohydrates and only about 12 or so percent comes from fat. And so these are not, these are natural indigenous diets. Now, is every indigenous diet that way? No, some are as high as 30% fat, some mean it. But none of them have processed food. Right. None of them have EP metabolic disease. None of them have ultra processed food. And so that's really where. But, but how, what happens if we really say now there's some study I just saw floating around the Internet just saying, oh, we find processed food is impacting, like, no kidding, it just finally came out. But how, what, who would this impact if it's say 70 years ago or 60 years ago? They said, actually it's processed food that's causing the increase in heart diseases that was affecting the president, which was, that was a big deal in the 50s. That's why Ansel Keys. Exactly. Heart disease, heart disease, obesity. What if it, what if it's all the new oils, the Crisco, the new TV dinners that really came up, became popular in the 60s. Yeah. And all this ultra processed food that was replacing home cooked dinners and our original kind of like simple farm food, so to speak. What if they had known this then what would have happened to that entire industry? I mean, how much money could be lost if we actually let every. Everybody was convinced that processed food was the real cause of disease. It's not a carb, it's not A, it's not the fat in your steak, it's not the carb in your fruit. Okay. It's, it's this thing that comes in a box, a bag or a bottle in the middle aisles of the grocery store. There's a lot of money to be lost if that actually became the true villain. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And so there's a lot of industry influence and pointing a finger at a particular food group because we know when we have low fat we can make intimates. Right. Remember the intamins of the 90s? I'm sure you ate a few. You're on your low fat diet. You know we had, we had all the, in cereals, right? Super low fat. That's the whole vegetarian push, right? The influence of the vegetarian group, if you want to call them, the lobby, whatever you want to call them. But although all those cereals, Kellogg's came from a vegetarian, you know, family. And so we had to find, we have to find a demon. We have to find something polarized. Yeah. Carbs is just the, the latest. And I was very big, big part for 20 years, big part of, of making them the villain for disease. Not, I'm not saying they're going to make, I'm not saying I never told someone fruit would make them fat. But if they're trying to turn things around, maybe, maybe limit group, but definitely not eat processed food. And where I think we've, we've had a few, very few people early on pointing the finger at seed oils, like Kate, Dr. Kate Shanahan 20 years ago was pointing the finger at seed oils, which is a major ingredient in all processed food. And that's a very inflammatory oil, right. So if we go back to really the, the origin of disease is that oxidative stress in the cell is what causes disease. Inflammation in the cell, which is usually from oxidative stress.
- [32:56]
A
Right.
- [32:56]
B
So when you think about what causes oxidative stress, because that inflammation, once it gets, once you get oxidative stress in the mitochondria that impacts your energy production. And once you impact energy production, your body has to respond and it responds by increasing stress hormone releasing fat from your fat cells, it actually increases gluconeogenesis. We make more glucose cuz it's trying to make more energy all of a sudden. And so this was really Kate Shanahan's theory of disease, of insulin resistance. I just where she's saying it's not the carbs, it's not the saturated fat. Those things really haven't changed much over the last 120 years. What has changed is the introduction of processed food and the unique new ingredient. Yes, the processed grains aren't great. The processed sugar is not healthy for us. But it appears that these oils in her, in her theory of insulin resistance are the ones that uniquely creating more oxidative stress in the mitochondria. Which decreases the energy output of the mitochondria. Exactly. And causes a stress response to the brain, saying, okay, we don't have enough energy. These, some of these cells won't live more than a handful of seconds without constant energy, so we need to put out more energy. And so it's the elevation of cortisol, epinephrine, adrenaline, even glucagon to release more energy into our system from, from the liver glucose, from the liver fat, from our fat stores to put energy into our bloodstream, and then hoping that that brings back some of that energy that, that was diminished from this oxidative stress in the cells. And what we see with diabetics and people with fatty liver disease is that their fat oxidation, the fat breakdown is about 50% higher than it would be if, if they were like, you're a metabolically healthy person. The fat breakdown is 50% higher and the gluconeogenesis level is about 30% higher. So they just have this flood of energy of both glucose and free fatty acids, triglycerides flowing through their system. So energy toxicity. And so you have all this energy that's now flooding their system. And then they eat and they've got more energy coming in. So it's this panic of low energy, release more energy, high stress hormone, and then they continue with the diet that created this problem. And that's when you start seeing blood sugar levels going up, low energy for themselves because they're just, they still haven't fixed the root cause of the problem, which is the, the damaged mitochondria or the, the, the mitochondria that keeps getting fed food that doesn't help it make energy. Right. And so this energy, this potential energy, this food's coming in their body instead of being converted into ATP, it's being, much of it's being converted to fat, some of it's being converted ATP, but not a great percentage of it, a lot is being converted back into fat. And so for a long time, you, you talk to many doctors who, who still understand this. This is what they were told in medical school, that diabetics don't burn fat, they can't burn fat. Oh, their insulin's too high, they can't burn fat. No, everything's up in their. These bodies. Their cortisol's high, their insulin is high, their glucagon's high. They're releasing blood sugar out of their liver, they releasing fat from their fat stores. It's a. It's a metabolic dumpster fire, essentially, of. Of too much energy, and then there's all this excess energy in the tissues. And the body say, we don't need more. Muscles are saying, we're full, we don't need more. The cells are saying, we're full, we don't need more. So that's when you see the blood sugar going up. So that. That's the insulin resistance. But because blood sugar's going up, the easiest culprit to blame is. Is carbohydrates.
- [36:45]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [36:47]
B
And so that's various symptoms. It's looking at symptoms. Oh, if we give them insulin, oh, that pushes that, the, the glucose back into the cells, and that's how we. We lower that symptom of blood sugar. But it's not really addressing the root cause. So by. Elevated blood sugar is a symptom of the disease. It's not the cause of the disease. Thank you. And so when you see diabetics who have elevated, elevated blood sugar in the morning, the dawn effect, right? They wake up, they haven't eaten for 8, 10, 12 hours, and their blood sugar might be 130, 140, 1, 50, 180. They haven't eaten. Where'd that come from? Well, it came from the liver because these stress hormones are going, and they're pumping out lots of blood sugar, and they're pumping out fat at the same time. And the mitochondria are like. Well, we can only process so much energy, right. And so the fat oxidation from the mitochondria is blocking the glucose from entering the mitochondria. Okay. And it creates a. And then. So then shoots that back out into the system. You have more lactate building up, and then you have a backup of glucose in the system. It's like a clog sink. And so you have a clog sink. You got the water faucets running. You can see the water. So if. Let's just cut the carbs out. Let's turn off the water. And so you don't have water going into the sink anymore. The clog's fixed. Turn off. Just turn off the water. So just remove the carbs. It's like turning off the water. Oh, you just don't see the blood sugar going up. You still haven't fixed the Root cause of insulin resistance at the cellular level. You haven't fixed the clog in the sink. And so, but it, but it makes for a good, like, oh, symptoms resolved now. And we, and so this is where I start to get a little, I step on some toes. Like we're seeing the same thing with low carb diet. We're just removing the carbs. But are we really fixing the problem? Because you could still have high fat diet blocking the entry of glucose into the mitochondria and so that glucose gets backed up and causes high blood sugar. So talking to a friend of mine, Brad Kearns, who wrote several books with Mark Sisson, like the, including the Keto Diet Reset. While he's writing the Keto Diet Reset five or six years, six, seven years ago and training, this guy is like he was a top ranked, top five ranked triathlete in the US world and the world actually in the 90s. He's now 60 years old and, and, and track and field, he's playing, he's hitting the Masters where He is number one for the high jump, number two for the 400. He's running a 460 seconds at 60 years old. So this guy's in great shape. Mahima, Mark Sisson, you know, Mark's daily apple writing, wrote probably four or five books together. He was writing the Keto Diet Reset following a ketogenic diet, great shape, waking up to a blood sugar level of 1:30 in the morning. He hadn't eaten. He's eating a keto diet. He hadn't eaten for 12 hours. He's waking up to blood sugar of 1 30. What's going on? Yeah, and it was the keto, it was the, it was the elevated stress hormones, the elevated gluconeogens. He's working out. So that's a little more stressful. And then the high fat blocking the entry of glucose into the mitochondria, causing the blood sugar to go up. Because when he's glucone, you know, it's normal to have some cortisol elevation in the morning. Well, yeah, yeah, but because of the position he's in with, he's exercising, he's on keto, he has a little more stress going on. And the blood sugar would just, would go up in the, in the morning with a normal cortisol response. It might go up in the 90s. Yeah, he's going to 130, which is diabetic level. Uh, he didn't have diabetes. But his blood sugar, because of the, the high fat diet, because of the stress on the liver. He, he had that backup of glucose in the system. It's become clear over the last few years that that low carb diet and all the intermittent fasting and all this metabolic stress I was creating was putting a dependence on fat oxidation over glucose oxidation to the point that my blood sugar was in the 90s, which is. Someone say, oh, that's not bad. It's not bad. It's not great. I'm metabolically healthy. Yeah. I want to be between 70 and 90. Yeah. And so I knew there was something wrong. There was something. I was like, why is this, why is my blood sugar high if my fasting insulin is low? What's going on here? And that's where I had to start digging in and adding carbohydrates to my diet. Significant amount of carbohydrates to my diet has now brought my blood sugar down where it's around 80. My fasted blood sugar is around 80. Yeah, yeah, it's perfect. It's right where I want it. And my A1C is 5.3. It's lower than ever has been. My fasting insulin is still, it's, you know, between two and a half and 3.2.5 and still really low. But my thyroid's better now, and I don't have the high, you know, the high, you know, stress markers. So. And I'm recovering better, sleeping better. So this is where I'm like, why, why is this happening? And I had to dig in and, and start looking for some history on how have we overcorrected for these problems with obesity and diabetes and how were we able to have these low fat, high carb diets for the last 10,000 years, prior to the 20th century in the United States, but for the last 10,000 years without diabetes, without, without metabolic disease. About obesity. If carbs cause metabolic disease.
- [42:13]
A
Yeah. You just kept digging and asking questions.
- [42:15]
B
I kept digging, asking questions and trying to, like, I had to, I had to, I had to roll back things I've been saying for.
- [42:21]
A
Yeah, that's what it's all about, man.
- [42:24]
B
That's how you learn.
- [42:25]
A
You're not.
- [42:26]
B
You.
- [42:26]
A
We're not going to know everything from this. No.
- [42:28]
B
But we get stuck. Yeah. We, we get in ruts. We get stuck. We think we've got it figured out and we, we run with it. And then we put on the T shirt, we put on the hat, and we call ourselves something or, you know, we change our handle and we put, we put, put strategy on our. We put a tool on our Brand. And when we put a tool on our brand, then everything's about the tool. Everything's if. If all you got is a hammer and everything's a nail. That's right. Right. And so you just want to hit everything with a hammer. Sometimes you need a screwdriver. Sometimes you need. And we. What I'm seeing, we start putting strategy ahead of health outcomes of the people we're trying to help. Yeah.
- [43:13]
A
So, you know, I. I refer to scripture a lot in the Bible and how I learn now. And people wonder how that's possible because it seems like it's so straightforward, but it's this thing called pride that you.
- [43:23]
B
Learn about in there.
- [43:23]
A
And then you realize pride has multifaceted definitions. One of being. Being stuck in your ways. That's a prideful sin, essentially, because it's a wrong.
- [43:33]
B
Right.
- [43:33]
A
And what you've been able to do and what I've been able to do is take accountability for the mistakes we've made. Or not even so much on purpose, but just look back and go, hey, let's revisit this. Let's look at other things. I'm seeing things.
- [43:46]
B
Right.
- [43:46]
A
Which are. Because I used to do this, Zane, a lot. When I was first starting into this, the whole fitness space, I hated to get challenged. I thought I was always right, and I would figure ways to twist and turn, make it how I wanted it to be. Now I meet a guy like you, and I go, oh, let's talk. Show me, teach me. What am I missing? I'll tell you what I see. You tell me what you see, and let's compare.
- [44:11]
B
I love that.
- [44:12]
A
Yeah. Doesn't mean you're right. Doesn't mean I'm right. Maybe we're both right. Maybe I take part of what you take. You take part of what I take.
- [44:18]
B
Our understanding of the truth is that is such a single digitization. Yeah. We. Truth has not completely revealed herself to us yet. And so we're all. I. I think it was like we're looking. We all have a jigsaw puzzle in front of us, and we're trying to find the. This. We're going to try and solve this puzzle. And some of us start with the corners, and some of us kind of start in the middle. We start with, oh, this is a bright yellow thing. I'm gonna put the bright yellow thing together in the middle and then work out from there. And so we're all just working with the pieces of the puzzle that we have that we like to work with. And some of us start the same way. And we kind of. Oh yeah. I like working from the outside and working in too. I like working from the inside out. And so we start grouping together. But we're all figuring. We're all trying to figure out the same puzzle. What we don't. We should do is start getting angry with other people who are. Are learning their puzzle from a different position because we'll have different perspective.
- [45:14]
A
Agree a hundred percent. And I, I love learning constantly and I love being pointed out to things that I'm missing because we're always missing something. I don't care how much you think you know or how good you are at something. There's something you're not doing. Of course, always. And so I think that's important. So I, I've got a couple. I don't think they're simple questions. It's more of like your experience or. Because these are questions that I think most people ask or they don't understand. So for instance, what I want to ask you is what are your most. Either the ones you recommend are the best sources of carbs and one maybe one might want to avoid that could actually be on the problematic side of carbs. So what are some of your staple carbohydrates and one are you some that you are maybe likely to avoid or tell people, hey, be careful here or look elsewhere.
- [46:03]
B
I typically eat mostly fruit. Sweet potato or some kind of potato. And then white rice. I like simply, simply digested or easily digested carbs with not a lot of phytonutrients or not phytonutrients. The like, like lectins. Yeah, phytates, things like that. So limited, easy digest, limited the, the plant toxins if you want to call them. The things that could disrupt digestion. So I don't. I tend to avoid legumes and nuts are like something I would maybe indulge around Christmas or some kind of, you know, just because I like the taste of them. Yeah. But that can be a regular part of my diet because of that digestive issue. But fruit, white rice, some potato. And then I always say look at how you digest them. Yeah. You know what, what, what is easy for you to digest? What tends to be difficult for you to digest? Maybe. Maybe it's just an adjustment. Maybe your biome just needs to adjust. But if it seems to be over time you don't digest that well, may not be the best one for you.
- [47:04]
A
Right.
- [47:05]
B
Most people can handle digesting fruit because it's pretty easy to digest. It's a simple soluble fiber and the Glucose is easy to process. The fructose, I think is beneficial as well. And there's a lot of nutrients in there that like antioxidants and so forth.
- [47:23]
A
Yeah.
- [47:24]
B
And they're very hydrating. They're very good. They're Casey. And I think there's a reason for that. Why do we have a sensor for sweet on our tongue if we aren't supposed to use it?
- [47:33]
A
Exactly.
- [47:35]
B
You know, as well as salty as well as savory. I mean, and then when something is so bitter that we want to spit it out, that's tells us something as well, you know. And so vegetables, like real vegetable. I mean, if someone wants to eat leaves or like broccoli or something like that, I would definitely say cook them because they're just too hard to break down. And I think some of those, those lectins and phytates and so forth, that. That can be problematic for digestion. Yeah.
- [48:07]
A
Which vegetables do you prefer?
- [48:10]
B
I don't eat a lot. I mean, I eat more like low sugar fruits that some people think of as vegetables like squash, tomatoes, peppers. Those are fruit, technically because they have seeds inside them. Yeah, right. Olives, you know, are great, but I don't. These like. I got to the point even in my. Maybe 10 years ago where a big salad would, would disrupt my stomach. Like I just couldn't digest it anymore. I'm like, okay, something's raw. Lots of raw veggies. Not, not ideal.
- [48:38]
A
No, no thanks. No, I don't touch salads or anything. I eat a lot of. I told you I was eating 14, 15 servings of B. Yeah, I bet.
- [48:45]
B
You'Re like done now. I check them out.
- [48:47]
A
I still like them. So I'm, I'm an Italian background, so I love peppers, so I like green peppers, red, orange. Do I have peppers, mushrooms and onions Pretty much every day. Onions, both green onions and white. That's about what I normally have for my vegetables every day. Like in there. Eggplant every so often, but not a lot, but that's the ones I prefer. And then a little bok choy here and there.
- [49:11]
B
Sure. You could get. Yeah, you can wait with bok choy.
- [49:13]
A
But I don't eat salad or any. I never do. I'm not a salad guy. I like tomatoes, but you know, I.
- [49:18]
B
Yeah, those are all technically fruits, by the way. Yeah. So technically fruit, you have seeds in them, so they're just lower sugar. But I think there is some of that room for like digestive and, and, and your microbiome and how well it adapts to it, but. Or how well you digest it. And that may be regional, it may be genetic on some level. I think humans, we've become the dominant species on this planet. Not because we're the biggest, not because we're the strongest, we're not the fastest, but we are the most adaptive.
- [49:52]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [49:53]
B
And so it's, I think, in our digestion, in the way we live. We make tools, we make. We communicate, obviously, but I think we're extremely adaptive and we are omnivorous and we can. We've been able to survive because we can live on our diet can have a lot of room for variety or be very limited for extended period of time. And we will still survive. Exactly. We may not be thriving on a limited diet, but we're surviving. And then to get us to the point. But too long and it will adapt to that. And again, we over leverage these adaptations. That's when we start to run into problems over time. Something I want to. I would love to just bring out where carbs. Carbs have been made a villain, but at one point, there's been interventions where they were used to reverse diabetes, reverse obesity, reversed hypertension, and even heart disease. And there's this study that a lot of people haven't heard about. It's not a study, actually. It was a. It was an intervention that was conducted at Duke University for. Starting in 1939 for, like, 74 years, all but. All but 10 of the 74 years. It was conducted at Duke University by this German guy named Walter Kempner, came from Germany right before World War II, landed at Duke University. And he started with a group of people who had hypertension. Now, back then, there were no hypertensive. There was no medication for high blood pressure.
- [51:18]
A
Right.
- [51:19]
B
So you would be more likely dead in six months, maybe a year. It would kill you. You'd have heart disease. So he wanted to reverse hypertension. And he put these people on a. Pretty much called the rice diet. So it was mostly rice with fruit, fruit juice and allowable, even table sugar, processed sugar. So it was 92, 93% carbohydrate, maybe 4 or 5% protein and 2% fat from the kernel in the rice. And they were in a ward. They were in this ward in Duke. And he reversed hypertension, like, from, you know, we're talking about people with like 200 over 150, and they're back down to normal hypertension. So then it was diet. They tried it with diabetes. They tried it and renal failure. So the kidney issues that come with metabolic disease.
- [52:05]
A
Right.
- [52:05]
B
Of course and reversed. Even some level of retinopathy was reversed on this diet. And they're not under 2,000, 2,400 calories. Some of them had to give them more because they were losing weight or trying to help them maintain their weight or they just killed up that they didn't want to eat. Now he did have a weight loss component as well and they, he did cut the calories for them. They were like around a thousand of maybe 1400 calories. Same diet, rice, fruit, fruit juice and sugar. And these people, he, he, he, he, he put forth a, a example of what he did 1974 from, I mean, 18,000 people came through this program, but in that 74 year period at Duke and two thirds of them were considered successful. That's pretty good numbers.
- [52:53]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [52:54]
B
So he showed of 106 people that he had treated with this, they had an average, all of them had lost at least 100 pounds. They had an average weight loss of 140 pounds. One guy lost 300 pounds in just over a year. Most of these were losing this, this, you know, hundred plus pounds anywhere from six months to a year's time on this diet. Now is this a sustainable diet? No, it's an intervention. But you could at the time, hypertension was not sustainable either. You would die. And I would argue that diabetes, obesity, heart disease, these aren't really sustainable. We've made them sustainable with drugs.
- [53:32]
A
Right.
- [53:33]
B
But I wouldn't want to stay in that chronic diseased state. I would rather eat rice and fruit for six months than be diabetic or obese personally. Absolutely. So this was an intervention diet that was not meant to be forever and it reversed this disease by basically improving their insulin resistance. They basically improved their glucose tolerance, their blood sugar came down. They no longer, the people who were diabetic, no longer needed an insulin. Is this to say this is the best intervention we should have? No. Is this a great diet? No. What this shows me is that carbohydrates do not cause metabolic disease, of course, because they were used in pretty much a 90, basically a hundred percent carbohydrate diet to reverse them. So how could we blame them for a disease that we can use if they ate 100% carbohydrates to reverse and there have been vegetarian, like Pritikin came from the 60s and 70s. Ornish was a vegetarian diet that also was very successful at reversing diabetes and obesity. And so am I advocating for those diets? No, but they show us that whole food, carbohydrates or even Even with sugar. He was using sugar, like a hundred grams of sugar a day on top of their rice and their fruit. And they were still losing weight and still reversing disease. That tells me carbohydrates are not causing this disease. And so that's. That was like. That was a light bulb moment. Like, okay, this just flipped the script on me completely. I need to understand why, how. What's. What's impacting this, you know, on a cellular level. Because looking at symptoms, looking at blood sugar going up and down and saying, oh, that's bad. We need to fix that. It's not the whole story.
- [55:30]
A
That's it. And that's the problem is people don't.
- [55:32]
B
Look at the whole story.
- [55:33]
A
They take the bits and pieces that they want.
- [55:36]
B
Doctors are taught this way. And I'm not trying to be critical of doctors or medical school, but they're taught. Here's. Here's a easy method you can apply to a lot of people that works most of the time. I know. And just. It's rinse and repeat. Because They've got about 10 minutes with somebody and it's like, this works most of the time. Seems to help the symptoms. Write them the script, tell them to do this, and then. And just repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. It's true, right? It's true. It's 100% true.
- [56:08]
A
I'm laughing and smiling because you say some of the same shit that I say all the time, so it makes me smile.
- [56:12]
B
Cause I love it.
- [56:13]
A
I can't. I can't believe we're almost done.
- [56:15]
B
Oh, wow. We bust.
- [56:16]
A
I want one more question.
- [56:17]
B
Sure.
- [56:19]
A
What is. And tell me this, because I talk to Ben about this all the time, and it's his thing, but what is metabolic flexibility? Why is it important? Do it quick.
- [56:30]
B
I don't have the same answer as Ben.
- [56:31]
A
No, you don't have to. That's why I'm asking.
- [56:33]
B
No, no, no, no. You're talking about Benazotti, right?
- [56:35]
A
Yeah.
- [56:35]
B
And we are buddies. That.
- [56:36]
A
Me too, but that's why I'm asking you.
- [56:38]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [56:38]
A
I want a different answer.
- [56:39]
B
So metabolic flexibility, in my opinion, is that you can switch between glucose and carbohydrate or glucose and fat flexibly. That's what I think. Right. But take someone who's been on a keto diet or a carnivore diet for a year and put glucose in their body. What happens? They will fail a glucose tolerance test. Your glucose will go through the roof. That, to me, is not metabolic flexibility. That's metabolic rigidity.
- [57:05]
A
Thank you, that's what I'm saying.
- [57:06]
B
We're always burning fat. We are always using fat. Everyone from a diabetic, we are always using, we never. The, the misconception is that, oh, if we're eating sugar, we're not using fat. No, we're always using fat. We're always using both. If we're eating both and our use of it will move with our diet. If you're at 30% carb and 30% fat, that's about how much you're gonna, you're gonna burn. If it's half and half, you know you're gonna be burning both.
- [57:32]
A
And you're training, right?
- [57:33]
B
And you're training. But even if you're not, you're using both. Because that's how our body works. It always uses, it has a useful structure. Nutrition and energy. It's not just all energy. We're looking at everything just from a energetic point of view. It's, it's too small. When we can use both, we can flow back and forth without a glucose spike. Then you have metabolic flexibility, right?
- [57:59]
A
And that's what we want.
- [58:00]
B
That's ideal because then your energy systems are working together seamlessly and you'll have plenty of energy. But if you are on a low, high fat, super low carb diet and when you consume glucose, your blood sugar goes through the roof and things are out of, you know, out of range, that's a sign you are not metabolizing glucose properly. That's not metabolic flexibility.
- [58:22]
A
Dude, I, I swear we're going to have to do another, another one of these. This I didn't get through a fraction of, a fraction of a fraction of what I wanted.
- [58:30]
B
Well, come to Nashville, we'll sit down there.
- [58:32]
A
I will, I absolutely will. We're going to do several of these. I've got to talk to you off camera about a lot of stuff here. So I really appreciate your insight and your level headedness and your willingness to discuss, your willingness to go out on a limb and the data that you have to back it up and the amount of time that I can see that you've put into it as well as your accountability. Because this is one of those things that I feel is lost in. It's not just our community, it's every, it's everyone. Accountability is, is something that I value highly and I had to work on it myself a lot. And that's how I feel like I became more successful was being more accountable. And I can tell you're an accountable guy and I love that. And I relate to you in a high regard and all of these things. So I just want you to know, just for me, that I appreciate that. I'm sure everybody else does too. But on a personal level, it's refreshing, man. Like, I love that about you and I'm glad that we met and talked and that we are like developing this relationship because it's valuable to me.
- [59:31]
B
Appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, I know. I love having someone I can like, go back and forth with and it's just, man. And that's, that's how we. That's how, like you said, that's how we uncover new things. That's how we think, look at things differently and see different patterns.
- [59:42]
A
That's how we learn. Tell everybody the best places to follow you and how they can maybe even get in touch with you or watch you because I think it's important to.
- [59:51]
B
Sure. I appreciate that. So my website, Zangregs.com would have all my socials on it. I'm most active on Instagram at Zangreks Fitness and on YouTube @Zane Griggs. And then in my community, the meta, the Metaflex community where I have like, that's my. Those are my people. I dive a little deeper. I can answer some questions, do Q and A and you know, get a little deeper with, with helping people. And that's why I'm choosing to work with people more so now than when I was one on one a lot in my early days of training. I'm. I'm really dig in the community aspect of it because I think it's really important for our health.
- [60:23]
A
Absolutely.
- [60:24]
B
As well. And to stay connected in this world. That's sometimes just way, way too digital. Right. I know, but to have real, these real conversations in community and so that's why I shifted to a more community aspect of my business. But those are the best places Instagram. You can see all the haters coming at me. So show me some love if you would at Zane Greeks Fitness and then YouTube of course.
- [60:45]
A
Zane Greeks know I got your back. I appreciate it, brother. I really do. This is part one of probably many. So. All right, everybody, that wraps up another one. I hope that you enjoy this, take it to heart, learn from it, implement it, try it, be open to new ideas and new methods because that's the key and that's how we make changes and get better. So that being said, stay tuned for plenty more to come. Dylan Jamelli and Zane Griggs signing off.
- [61:16]
B
Sam.