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The Empire Never Ended
337: Order of Nine Angles - From Combat 18 to 764
01:38:28
TENE returns to the Order of Nine Angles (O9A) for a much requested concise history of the Nazi Satanist group from its origins in the 1970s, to its various permutations such as the Tempel ov Blood in the US and the internet abuse network of 764....
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- [00:00]
A
Sam, Welcome back to the Empire Never Ended. It's me, Boris, and I'm chilling here with Ray. We got. Hey, Sal Falcon on the ones and twos, supervising our recording, making sure that we don't mess anything up because we're somehow not very good at the whole technology thing.
- [00:57]
B
Yeah.
- [00:58]
A
But here we are. So. Yeah. How you doing, Ray?
- [01:04]
B
Okay. I mean, we're recording remotely now after a long time, so it's a bit strange.
- [01:10]
A
Yeah, it is. It's a little awkward.
- [01:13]
B
Yeah.
- [01:13]
A
Especially my setup. It's very strange right now because my computer died and I'm hooked up in all kinds of weird ways.
- [01:20]
B
But you lost all of your notes.
- [01:22]
A
I lost all my notes. And hopefully that'll get resolved soon. But here we are. So today we're going to be going back to our roots. Yes, unfortunately, these are our roots. And we're going to talk about the 09A, not surprisingly. But it's going to be a little bit different this time. So, you know, the.
- [01:49]
B
I mean, if we have new listeners, we should say we were not members of the Order of Nine angle.
- [01:53]
A
No.
- [01:54]
B
What we mean by our roots, although.
- [01:56]
A
We did go through the initiation. Right. We actually.
- [01:59]
B
Yes.
- [02:00]
A
And we formed our own Nexian. So kind of were. Yeah, so we kind of are, I guess. But, yeah, there's been a lot of talk lately about the 09A and chatter on the Internet specifically. There was a lot of talk after this Annunciation Catholic school shooting in Minneapolis on August 27th. Mass shooting in a Catholic church. I'm sure listeners have probably heard about it if you hadn't. An attacker by the name of Robin Westman attacked this Catholic church with. Filled with, like, school children attending Mass and killed two young children. And then the shooter committed suicide as well. And seemingly immediately afterwards, as the shooter released videos of her journals, which is a kind of manifesto of sorts. And some people read into some of the imagery, some of the drawings in there as being potentially like, oh, nine A seven, six, four related. And we'll get into that. But as a result, there's been a lot of talk about the 09A online. And, you know, we have done a lot of episodes on the 09A. We have a collection on Patreon. I think there's. I think there's like, 30 episodes there. So you could literally have an entire day's worth of continuous listening about us jabbering about the 09A. But, you know, if you're not into doing that. Yeah, we thought it might since we.
- [03:48]
B
Started talking about the Order nine Angles. When we started doing the podcast and the sound quality wasn't that good. So some of those first episodes are kind of rough, I guess.
- [03:57]
A
Yeah, but, yeah, yeah, they're very rough. So we thought it might be actually helpful to just do A kind of ABCs of the 09A in one episode, kind of do cover the basics since. Yeah, we've. We've spent a lot of time on the subject matter and then maybe kind of address some of the Mythology around the 9a and Nazi Satanism in general. Because. Yeah, I think there's a lot of. A lot of people believe the hype.
- [04:32]
B
Yeah, I think the. We generally, like, on the Empire never ended. When we talk about Nazis and fascists and nationalists, we try to not portray them in the way they would like to be portrayed. Not only because it's like, that's what they would like to. Because it contributes to the hype they create because it's also not really an accurate way to portray them.
- [04:58]
A
Right.
- [04:59]
B
And that's like we, you know, we criticize how, like, the liberal media portrays, like, even, like, ordinary Neo Nazis, which many of them enjoy the way they portray them, but it's especially, like, easy to, you know, succumb to this hype when it comes to, like, this kind of occult Satanist stuff.
- [05:21]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [05:23]
B
Because, you know, it sounds very scary and it is. So it's kind of a. We tried to maintain this balance between, you know, having this kind of more sober look at these people, not. Not really going into the. This mythology that they're trying to create, but also not to take them completely lightly and justice clowns. So it's a kind of balance. Like you. They are dangerous, but they're also not what they themselves portray to be.
- [05:56]
A
Yeah, exactly. I mean, if you're a longtime listener to the show, then you know that we've, you know, literally cyberbullied David Myatt online. But they are people that. And Neo Nazis are generally kind of like this obsessed with their own image. But in the case of the 9A, you know, you have some of the most important people in the, you know, organization or whatever, or lack thereof, as they like to say, who like, constantly name search themselves on. On the Internet and are, like, very active online in a kind of defensive way. And that includes, like, you know, people like Temple of Blood's Joshua, Caleb Sutter and all these people. They're very much out there and kind of accessible in a really funny way that we weren't really aware of when we first started the show. And then that became more and more clear to us as we went along. But even, like, from the very beginning, Niners would engage us on the Intern. Like, I think with our first episode, some of our first comments were angry Niners. So, yeah, they're out there. But I guess before we get into, like, the basic history of the 09A, I would just like to maybe talk about the shooting a little bit and just kind of my read on whether this is, you know, whether Robin Westman was, like a 09, a fan or follower or whatever. And I got to be honest, I don't really see it. So I went through, like, right after the shooting when. When the videos of the journals came out, and kind of read through as much as I could, which was nicely, uniquely tailored to us, too, because the shooter wrote these journals largely in Cyrillic, in Russian Cyrillic, but in English. So it's. It's. It's, you know, it's something that was quite easy for me to read at times, although, like, you know, they're doing English spelling with Russian letters. So, like, that is T, H, A, T, which would be taught in Russian.
- [08:07]
B
It's.
- [08:07]
A
It's weird to look at, but once you get the hang of it, you know, you can actually read it pretty easily. And there are some, like, smatterings, too, of actual Russian, but, like, Google Translate stuff mostly, like, kill yourself, I'm crazy, help me, I want to die. And that kind of stuff. But I think what really triggered this kind of Nazi Satanist angle comes from there's one image, it's like a. I guess some sort of self portrait of the shooter looking into a mirror, and in the mirror is a demon. So I think that's one thing that kind of set people off. And then on the gun, she did the kind of Christchurch shooter thing that now, like a lot of other mass shooters, Nazi mass shooters have done, which is write a whole bunch of shit in, like, white marker on the gun, on the magazines, all that kind of stuff. You know, in previous. In all of these shootings where they do that, it tends to be some sort of, like, political messages or it's usually actually kind of disjointed, and this is no exception. And there was, like, some Satanist symbols on there and some symbols that have been kind of tangentially related to, like, 764, which we'll talk about a little bit later.
- [09:28]
B
The Christchurch shooter was writing also, like, some Serbian connected stuff, right?
- [09:33]
A
Yeah, some Serbian connected stuff. And also, like, all these, you know, medieval battles against Muslims. Yeah, that kind of thing. And this had, like, yeah, Like, I don't know the names of some other shooters and. And shit like that as well. Although, again, having gone through a lot of, like, onane, Temple of Blood, let's say, like, artwork and journals, this doesn't really have the telltale signs of things you would associate specifically with those groups. So aren't any, like, 09A septograms, for example, which, you know, is the 9A symbol there aren't like, you know, 09A people love drawing the various sigils. So, like, the sigil of Vindex you'll always see in, like, you know, their. Their drawings. And that being said, you know, the drawings are kind of similar in the sense that they're always, like, bad, scary drawings that, like, Satanists do. But I get the kind of distinct impression that this shooter was just kind of more in the Edge Lord online mass shooter fandom than, like, anything really specifically related to the 09A. Like, I just didn't really see it. And. And like I said, when. When you go through a lot of 9A stuff, that's the stuff you see, right? Yeah. And. And I didn't really see any of that. So I am kind of leaning towards the idea that there probably wasn't much 09A influence in this particular mass shooting.
- [11:14]
B
Okay.
- [11:15]
A
So, yeah, with. With that out of the way, I guess let's go into a short history of the order of nine angles.
- [11:23]
B
Yeah.
- [11:24]
A
Right.
- [11:28]
B
What I'm supposed to do.
- [11:29]
A
Oh, you're so good at it. Come on.
- [11:34]
B
I mean, I can try. I guess you have some idea also, like, about what you want to say about this and some kind of structure or.
- [11:44]
A
Yeah, I mean, let's. Let's go into the. Into the original 09A first. Then we can talk about Temple of Blood. Yeah. And then some of the other outgrowths.
- [11:54]
B
Well, I mean, so it's a strange thing to talk about because there are, like, a few kind of dimensions to it. Like, you can talk about it in different ways, and it's like, basically what we started talking about since our first episode.
- [12:09]
A
Yeah.
- [12:10]
B
So we are really going back, but so there it's really. You cannot talk about it without talking about it. This strange British guy called David Myatt.
- [12:22]
A
Yeah.
- [12:23]
B
Who is a Nazi. I mean, that's, like, for sure what he is.
- [12:28]
A
Yeah.
- [12:29]
B
He. He was born around 1950, maybe. Exactly 1950.
- [12:32]
A
Yeah.
- [12:33]
B
An English man who very early on became a Nazi in his teenage days and was affiliated always with, like, the kind of the. The politically most extreme of the British Neo Nazis. Yeah. So he wasn't into like National Front or anything that was like kind of, you know, the fascists who don't explicitly say they are fascist, was always a neo Nazi and always aligned with the most kind of extreme militant sides of that movement, let's say.
- [13:07]
A
So like Combat 18, right?
- [13:09]
B
Yeah. And before that, like before that, because he already, you know, and already maybe in the late 1960s, was a part of this movement when he was very young. So he was affiliated with the National Socialist movement, later called, I think, the British Movement, which was led by a neo Nazi called Colin Jordan, who was, who was his mentor. So Colin Jordan was. He was a guy who was at one time super close and like affiliated with a guy called John Tyndall, who would later become a leader of the National Front. So Tyndall was, you know, in the beginning like this kind of a open neo Nazi and then went into this other kind of fascism that tries to get away from explicit Nazi stuff and had quite a lot of success with the National Front. But Colin Jordan always remained like a proud Nazi and led this group called first the National Socialist Movement and later on the British movement, which was a group that. Which, you know, the first Nazi skinheads were affiliated with.
- [14:14]
A
Yeah.
- [14:16]
B
And was, you know, involved in kind of proto skinhead Nazi violence since, you know, the 60s.
- [14:24]
A
Right.
- [14:25]
B
Colin Jordan also had like a older lineage from the pre war times of British fascism. So even in, in, you know, 1930s, there was a division in British fascism between the British Union of Fascists led by Oswald Mosley, which, you know, was explicitly fascist but tried to be kind of a respectable organization. Oswald Mosley used to be a member of Parliament as a member of the Labour Party before became. He became an open fascist and you know, was a sir and a part of kind of the upper class and so on. But then there was a kind of a more crude side to British fascism led by a guy called Arnold Lees, I think, who, you know, was an explicit Nazi who called the Mosley style of British fascism kosher fascism. Mosley was too Jewish for him.
- [15:17]
A
Right.
- [15:18]
B
And. And he was like, he was friends with the guy who published their Sturmer, like the most crude Nazi anti Semitic newspaper of the 1930s.
- [15:30]
A
Yeah.
- [15:31]
B
So this lease guy was the mentor of Colin Jordan. And Colin Jordan, like inherited leases house even, which he named Anna Lee's House, which was kind of the headquarters of the British movement. So, you know, Lisa, the mentor of college Jordan, Colin Jordan, the mentor of David Meyer. Right. So it's quite a lineage there.
- [15:52]
A
Yeah.
- [15:54]
B
And so there was a kind of a paramilitary side to these groups. Like even in the days when Jordan and Tyndall was still friends, they were arrested as a. Members of a neo Nazi paramilitary called Spearhead, I think, which is after. And when Tindall was imprisoned for. This is when Colin Jordan actually started an affair with Tindall's lover.
- [16:21]
A
Ah, the classic story. Yeah, yeah.
- [16:24]
B
And married her. She was this French Nazi woman. We covered their. Actually on the wedding.
- [16:31]
A
Yeah, yeah. If you're a new listener, we have not one, but I think couple or three episodes of Nazi Weddings. It's a thing. They tend to be kind of funny.
- [16:43]
B
Yeah. But you know, Colin Jordan was like. He was friends with Savitri Devi, the kind of Nazi, like esoteric Hitler.
- [16:50]
A
Yeah.
- [16:51]
B
Which. Which we should.
- [16:51]
A
We should say esoteric Hitler ism. It comes from basically Savitri Devino. And it's this. This. Well, it's. The name speaks for itself. It's an esoteric Hitler ism. They believe it's a kind of mishmash. She was a French woman who lived in India, became kind of like a Hindu and took on the Tre Devi. And it's. It's kind of a Western person's interpretation of Hinduism in which Hitler is like an avatar of Vishnu and. And the like. And they like worship Hitler.
- [17:25]
B
Yeah. And Jordan was also friends with George Lincoln Rockwell and they had these like first neo Nazi international meetings in England with Rockwell and Savitri Devi and so on. They created the World Union of National Socialists.
- [17:41]
A
Do we know. Sorry, did. Did my nose personally, because he was around at this time.
- [17:47]
B
No, I don't know about this. He probably because he's very much into like self mythologizing. He would probably mention it if there was something there. It's never mentioned there. There are some connections between some people connected to him and Savitri Devi. I think like a guy who was later affiliated with. With in the 80s and early 90s with David. Matt was. Had something to do with the funeral of Savitri Devi because her ashes were sent from, I think, England to the United States and were placed in the headquarters of the new order led by Matt Kael. So. Okay, the story is quickly getting very complicated.
- [18:30]
A
We're trying to simplify the 09 A history here.
- [18:33]
B
Yeah. But it's. Yeah. So David Meyer is very much connected to you know, like the kind of the militant Neo Nazism of Britain and its international connections and so on.
- [18:45]
A
And it should be mentioned that he also comes from like a wealth, like a posh background, kind of grew up in some of the British colonies right before decolonization.
- [18:56]
B
Yes. Claims that he started studying physics at the university but never finished. Who knows? Also, David Mize is a complete liar. Absolutely.
- [19:04]
A
Yeah. Reliable.
- [19:05]
B
Anything that he says, except that he for sure is a neo Nazi. Like that is documented by other people as well.
- [19:11]
A
And he's lying about not being a neo Nazi anymore or not being extremist, I guess.
- [19:15]
B
Yes. So this paramilitary side to these groups is also important because there was kind of a shadowy group that supposedly, according to some anti fascist college, Jordan was an early member of called column 88.
- [19:31]
A
Right.
- [19:32]
B
So this is a neo Nazi group which had as its members and leader members of the like British armed forces. So it is said that this, you know, some people claim that this was like the, the British, like part of the so called gladio and such things. I don't know if this is true. I mean in the one book about gladio that you know, exist in English, I think it's not mentioned, but it's certainly like a very, you know, suspicious group that had contacts with like the British military and its leader was a colonel that I, his name, I forget now. He was a British military officer who was a neo Nazi and has, was also himself a follower and of Arnold Lees. So you know, a British fascist. He appears like this guy actually existed. He, he himself, the footage of him and his speech appears in an 80s ITV documentary called the Other side of Hate. I think it's available on YouTube so you can find him there. So it was alleged that both Colin Jordan and David Myatt were members of column 88.
- [20:51]
A
Yeah. And this is important because a lot of times when people talk about the 09A, Gladio gets brought up a lot. And this is kind of if there, this would be like kind of the most direct connection. But again, whether column 88 was actually like the British gladio is, is kind of, I guess debated. No.
- [21:10]
B
Well, okay, British gladio, that's more kind of a metaphor because gladio is a name for specifically what was going on in Italy. And it's also not about everything that was going on in Italy. There were like operations in, you know, by intelligence involving fascists in Italy that were not a part of the specific gladiator thing. But gladio is used as like kind of a umbrella term for all of these, like Western NATO intelligence usage of Nazis for shady things like terrorism.
- [21:39]
A
Right.
- [21:40]
B
So you know, there was no specific British gladiator, but that's how this is used. So I mean they are a neo Nazi paramilitary that had Connections with the British state military and so on. So in that sense.
- [21:54]
A
And all these neo Nazis in the UK at the time did have connection to or were taking part in in various ways in the conflict in Northern Ireland, Right?
- [22:05]
B
Yes. And like specifically in that ITV documentary that mentions column 88, the colonel that is the leader of the column 88, he appears in that documentary in like discussing safe houses for convicted or suspected Italian fascist terrorists and such, like some of which lived in Britain for a period of time, allegedly and so on. So you know, he's definitely closely connected to those kind of stories.
- [22:35]
A
Sure.
- [22:37]
B
Yeah. So but you know, David M himself often mentions column 88 and how it is allegedly part of Gladio. So it's also a part of his kind of mythology. Yeah, I mean I think the only, like or almost only reference that you can find connecting him to that is himself talking about it. I think also the. I think the. Actually it's not completely true because I think the British anti fascist kind of research group Searchlight were also talking about David Myers connection to column 88 already in the 80s, I think. So in the 70s David Meyer was affiliated with a, like a kind of an extreme neo Nazi group which I forget its name. It had some strange name, like some National Democratic something if you remember that.
- [23:29]
A
I mean all Nazi groups are some variation of that. No, it's like either the National Socialist movement, the British movement, the National Democrats and you know, you can plug that into any like European country or the US and you get groups of more or less the same name. Yeah.
- [23:44]
B
And then you know, in the late 80s, early 90s and throughout the 90s actually he was affiliated and he was actually a member of Combat 18. So Combat 18 was a like self styled Nazi terror unit organized by Nazi skinheads, football hooligans and so on. Affiliated with the bloody Nanner group. So this is like Rock Against Communism.
- [24:12]
A
Kind of Ian Stewart Donaldson, the lead singer of the kind of most famous neo Nazi band, Screwdriver.
- [24:19]
B
Yes. So they were like, I think ex British also British movement members are connected to it. So there's also that connection kind of an older one with David Mite and his, you know, surroundings, who were first organized as a kind of an protection unit for the British National Party, like the. Which at the time was led by John Tyndall, the ex chairman of National Front. So like to protect their. Allegedly to protect their demonstrations against anti fascists and so on. But quickly, you know, separated from the British National Party and started doing its own thing, which is like mostly violence. People Violence. Yeah. I mean, they were led by this guy called Charlie Sargent. I mean, who. Like, just to see him, you will understand what. What this is about.
- [25:11]
A
They're kind of quintessential bonehead.
- [25:14]
B
Yes. Just. It's incredible. That person is incredible. Just like the worst kind of stereotype you could have. About like an English neo Nazi bonehead.
- [25:26]
A
Yeah, but. Yeah, so. So, I mean, my. Kind of stands out even though he's part of these groups because, you know, he's not the quintessential bonehead.
- [25:35]
B
He's.
- [25:36]
A
He's a nurse. Right. He, in his appearance has these. He's like a slight guy with like a. A wispy beard and these little glasses. He's. He doesn't look. He looks like, you know, a British gentleman or something. And. And not like. Not like Charlie Sargent.
- [25:54]
B
He described himself using some other. Because Matt, like, loves to write about himself, pretending that he's someone else.
- [26:01]
A
Yeah, that's his big thing. He writes autobiographies, but in like, kind of interview format a lot, as if he's being, you know, interviewed by a famous scholar or journalist or something.
- [26:11]
B
I think that he described himself as looking in like an English country gentleman.
- [26:18]
A
Yes, that's it. Yeah. Like tweed suits, that kind of thing. Yeah.
- [26:21]
B
Rides a bicycle.
- [26:22]
A
Yes.
- [26:24]
B
But he's like a documented member of Combat 18. Like, there's film footage and photographs of him with Charlie Sargent and so on. So there was like, of course, because it's a typical, you know, bonehead, like, criminal really group. There was like a lot of infighting, which also means stabbing and killing each other and so on, so. And also working for the cops. Like Charlie Sargent was a snitch, working for like the Special Branch, like that.
- [26:49]
A
Which is the case with every Nazi group in some way or another.
- [26:53]
B
Yeah. This happened, I think, in the early 90s, there was the split in Combat 18. So there was a pro Charlie sergeant and anti Charlie sergeant wing. And I think the one that calls itself Combat 18 was the anti Charlie Sergeant Wing up from that point on. And Charlie went to prison for killing a guy and his supporters, which included his brother and David M. Reorganized as the National Socialist Movement. So they took the name, the old name of Colin Jordan's group, like from the 60s.
- [27:30]
A
Yeah.
- [27:31]
B
And David M. Was one of the leaders or the leader or main ideologue of this group for a time.
- [27:36]
A
Yeah.
- [27:37]
B
And so in 99, there is an infamous case of like, Neo Nazi terrorism. The London Nail Bomber. Yeah, I forget what's the name of the guy.
- [27:48]
A
Escapes me as well. Yeah.
- [27:49]
B
Nail bombs across London, killing people, injuring people seriously and so on. And they were like like manifestos and text being published, claiming responsibility by like phantom groups that were basically the National Socialist Movement affiliated groups. So you know the London Neilber was a member of David Myatt's faction of combat aid.
- [28:15]
A
David Copeland is his name.
- [28:17]
B
Yes. At the time, specifically when those bombings happened, David Myatt allegedly left the group and became a Muslim and like supporter of Al Qaeda.
- [28:30]
A
Yeah. Which around 911 is when he becomes a Muslim. So that's a little bit about like Myatt himself. But, but if we, if we. And that's. Sorry.
- [28:39]
B
Yeah. There is like an important. So.
- [28:41]
A
Oh yeah, go ahead.
- [28:42]
B
So this is like the, the early 2000s and then he's a Muslim Al Qaeda whatever guy. And then allegedly he says I am now, you know, renouncing all extremism is how he says. So that's like his official view of himself. So parallel to death there is this another weirder history of David Mike and that's that he was an occultist and a Satanist throughout this whole period.
- [29:10]
A
Yes.
- [29:11]
B
Which he denies. So. But it's obviously lying.
- [29:16]
A
Yes.
- [29:16]
B
So we know this because there are people who were like Nazis and his friends who says, who say yes, Dademar was a Satanist at least still since the 70s, probably since the 60s. So for example when he was a part of that National Democratic whatever Nazi violent group in the 70s and 80s, the leader of that group kicked him out of the group for being a Satanist. And they are like public, you know, we I think on our Twitter published like you know, a scan of an over newspaper interview with David miles from the 70s in which he says that he's a Satanist and such things. There is a photograph of him saying that he's a Satanist.
- [29:57]
A
Yeah.
- [29:58]
B
So like and then later on he would like that he never was in such thing and as a Satanist he had this other identity as Anton Long, the leader of the Order of Nine Angles.
- [30:09]
A
Yeah.
- [30:10]
B
Which exists in his head and maybe in collaboration with a few Nazi weirdos since probably the 70s.
- [30:19]
A
Yeah. So there's no, I think exact year of founding but it's generally thought to be sometime in the kind of early 70s. Right?
- [30:29]
B
Yes.
- [30:29]
A
Yeah.
- [30:30]
B
And it's a kind of a very unoriginal mishmash of like occult stuff that he admired. Yeah, it's very obvious. It's like typical occult bullshit. Meaning it's like fake, it's in invented histories which he like quite obviously stole from other occultists.
- [30:49]
A
Right. Because there's there's elements of like the. Of Wicca in there. The what? Temple of Set. Yes, yeah, Like Lovecraft, Church of Satan. Church of Satan, Crawley stuff.
- [31:01]
B
It's like. So he's called Anton Long, obviously. Anton lavey.
- [31:06]
A
Right.
- [31:06]
B
I mean, very original fake name. Then you know, the story of how it was founded is that he met a woman who came from this old, like, British lineage of like, occult stuff that's 4,000 years old.
- [31:22]
A
Six, I believe she was.
- [31:24]
B
Yeah, a witch that kind of initiated him into a coven that existed and so on. And out of this coven, the Order of Nine Angles came to be, which is almost exactly the same story that the founder of WEKA was also a British guy told how he was inducted into a old coven. And this is the origin story of Vika, basically.
- [31:46]
A
Right.
- [31:47]
B
Then the. The Name of order 9Angles, I think it comes from something out of the Temple of Set. So there's like, really none of it is original in any way. It's just like Western occult invented.
- [32:01]
A
Yeah. With. With some like, additional Trekkie sci fi stuff for good measure.
- [32:08]
B
Yes. Yeah. Because he's a obviously kind of a fan of Star Trek, although really politically completely different from Star Trek. But he. He dreams of some kind of a Aryan Nazi galactic imperium.
- [32:21]
A
Right. So if we're. If we're now like talking a little bit about the belief system, Right. You have a smattering of like. Yeah, what you. What you said, like traditional kind of Western occult stuff. And then they have their own kind of messianic figure in. In Vindex, which is kind of a. What, like a supernatural figure based off of the name, off of a like, Gallic general from back in the day.
- [32:51]
B
And like in a war against the Roman Empire. But yes, somehow.
- [32:55]
A
Yeah. And Vindex then ushers in a gold, like, National Socialist galactic imperium.
- [33:04]
B
That is.
- [33:05]
A
There to, you know, liberate Aryans from the Magian myth of the Holocaust or whatever.
- [33:11]
B
Yeah, it's very crude and very stupid. Like, so because David Meyer is like supposedly this kind of a genius, whatever, you know, mysterious figure. It's very dumb. It's like he. He lifts the. The term Magian from Spangler. So there's like this Magian culture which for him is. Means Jewish, which is the dominant one and which suppresses, you know, the national kind of potential of the Aryan race to create the galactic imperium, but with the lie of the Holocaust.
- [33:44]
A
Right.
- [33:44]
B
So the fact that, you know, they lie about the Holocaust is what prevents Aryans from creating a galactic imperium.
- [33:52]
A
Right.
- [33:52]
B
Because then direct correlation between.
- [33:55]
A
Yeah. Aryans feel like a sense of guilt that kind of makes them submissive to Jewish control or whatever. Yeah.
- [34:04]
B
If there was no, you know, the lie of the Holocaust, Aryans will already would have, like, like, you know, colonized the. The universe or something.
- [34:13]
A
Yes.
- [34:14]
B
So, I mean, it's really that stupid. That's.
- [34:17]
A
It is. And I mean, I always kind of. The way I always saw this is that, like, he was probably into this occult stuff and, you know, that was popular right. In the 60s and 70s. And so this is kind of a way of merging his, like, two hobbies. Right. Like the Nazi side and like the occult side. And maybe, like, was probably hoping that, like, if it picked up, you could get more Nazis in the occult movement, which, you know, there wasn't actually a shortage of, I guess, of weirdo right wingers in occult circles. That's always kind of been true. But I think this was kind of. I think he probably viewed it as a vessel to, you know, get National Socialism, specifically in. In the kind of world of the occult.
- [35:00]
B
Yeah. Although, you know, because he makes a lot of this since the 90s, he makes this kind of bad WordPress blogs about himself pretending that he's someone else writing about himself.
- [35:11]
A
Yeah.
- [35:11]
B
So he also, you know, speculates was actually the Order of Nine Angles a honeypot operation by the British intelligence and so on. So, you know, took, you know, so he. He's himself introduced this idea that maybe it was a deep state honeypot operation or something like.
- [35:29]
A
Right. Because, you know, part of his whole thing, right. The Labyrinthos mythologicals or whatever he talks about, is purposely to like, I guess, deceive people or lead them down paths and get them thinking kind of conspiratorially about like, the Order of Nine Angles. Right. It's. It's deliberately there to confuse you and.
- [35:52]
B
Yeah. And so. So one kind of essential thing to understanding what the Order of Nine Angles is is that from the start, David Meyer had this idea how unlike, you know, although he obviously admires the Church of Satan, which he will later deny, and Crowley and whatever, all of those occult things. What separates the Order of Nine Angles from that is that they are like, you know, openly pro Evil.
- [36:21]
A
Yeah.
- [36:22]
B
Pro Satan and pro, like murder and evil stuff like. Yeah. You know, the Church of Satan. And a lot of those people say no, actually we are just, you know, kind of an intellectual, atheistic, basically materialistic rejection of Christianity. We don't believe in the literal Satan. We don't do human sacrifices and so on. The Order of Nine Angles. Its originality is in that they're so kind of stupid, they actually say no, we actually are for all of those things.
- [36:51]
A
Yeah.
- [36:51]
B
We do human sacrifice, we are evil and so on.
- [36:55]
A
Or at least like when. When you hear them rationalizing it, it's not that they support those things, but they never rule out anything.
- [37:04]
B
Right.
- [37:05]
A
Yeah, it's kind of. You kind of form your own experience as you go. So like if you're, you know, it's all about breaking taboos. Right. Basically. And that's. That's like a core element of their philosophy. Right. So it's.
- [37:18]
B
It's a kind of a teenage edgelord reading of Nietzsche. So, you know, you want to create the Ubermans who will be able to create the galactic imperium. And in order to do that, you need to reject, you know, the slave morality of the Magian culture, which is, you know, enforced by Jews through Christianity. So you need to, you know, transgress. Yeah. And. And that means exactly what you think it means. Also includes, you know, things like pedophilia.
- [37:48]
A
And stuff like that, which, you know, they will deny up and down, especially my. But it's clear my himself is a pedophile. So.
- [37:56]
B
Absolutely. Yes. And I mean, and they like, they had like this since I think the 80s, they had like a zine called Fenrir published by David Matt, which included like kind of pedophile like fiction in it and so on, written almost certainly by himself because he. He had some collaborators, but it's usually like one or two friends that he had like there, there we know for sure that guy called Richard Molt, which is like a relatively successful British artist, musician, painter, who was a part of the Order of Nine Angles and all of these things. There was another guy called Tony, I forget his last name now. He was a member of the National Socialist movement from the 90s and maybe a leader of it who was also a Satanist and collaborative date might. He was a relative. Like he was allegedly a millionaire and he was a guy who was a part of the Savitri Devi, like funeral whatever in the United States. So there were some people connected to him. But it's largely. It was for the longest time largely only him, basically.
- [39:02]
A
Yeah.
- [39:03]
B
And this changed in the. Somewhat changed in the 90s with the Internet.
- [39:09]
A
Yeah. So basically up until the 90s, you know, Myatt is in all of these organizations, right. These Nazi militant groups and is being implicated in, you know, his group with the London nail bombing in the 90s. And that's where he kind of makes a name for himself. And it's not really, you know, the. The order of nine angle stuff, at least, you know, at our read is. Is very small at the time. And, you know, I think they are always kind of were inflating their numbers because it's secret and all and all that kind of stuff. But it seems to have basically been like Richard Mole, saying that's even very.
- [39:43]
B
Small is almost inflating it. It's like it was basically him and maybe one or two friends, I think.
- [39:48]
A
Yeah.
- [39:49]
B
Like.
- [39:49]
A
Like Richard Molt, who was like, you know, drawing like, all their, you know, artwork. At least the good ones come from Richard Molt and like, the sinister tarot that he did and. And all this kind of stuff. But it's. Yeah, it's very small. And then with the advent of the Internet, it starts to kind of get out to the rest of the world. Okay.
- [40:12]
B
There's like a. Just a few important terms there. Like a nexium.
- [40:16]
A
Yes. Yeah.
- [40:17]
B
Is like what they call, basically, is their word for covenant, but it's also part of their kind of quote unquote theology. It also means a kind of a connection point between the causal world, which is the world, and a causal world, which is this other realm. I don't know, the fifth dimension or something like that. So a nexion is a connecting point between these two things. But also it's used for their name for a local group. Yeah. Of the order of nine angles. And so that's one concept that you will often hear connected. If you hear the word nexon, it usually comes from them. And then there is this other concept that is very important for them, which is insight role.
- [40:58]
A
Right.
- [40:59]
B
Which is like, I guess, a part of this training to become this kind of ubermensch, and that is to, like, assume social roles that are foreign to you.
- [41:11]
A
Right. And this is part of their, like, what, the sinister dialectic or whatever. Yeah. Again, we've read all of this, and it's. It's dumb. It's bad. So.
- [41:23]
B
Yeah, like, he claims that he was like a Christian monk and a Buddhist monk and. And like, so you, you know, if they're all Nazis, almost all of them. So the usual, like, so in insight role would be that you, you know, you. You become a member of, like, a communist organization or an anarchist organization, and you do that for, like, a limited period of time. It's some kind of an exercise, allegedly.
- [41:48]
A
Yeah.
- [41:49]
B
Or. Or, you know, among a Christian monk or something like that.
- [41:52]
A
Yeah. And this is to, like, develop your mental fortitude to become.
- [41:55]
B
Yeah.
- [41:56]
A
Like The Ubermensch.
- [41:57]
B
Yeah.
- [41:59]
A
And I mean, like, we've, we've revealed and, you know, we've seen some kind of famous insight roles, like the guy in Montenegro though, on any guy who became an Orthodox priest. And they're like, that's kind of a good example of that. And we have this stuff, weird old.
- [42:14]
B
Dutch guy who's a priest in the, like the. The old Catholic Church there.
- [42:20]
A
Yeah, right, right. And so, like, you know, oftentimes, you know, because these people are all weirdos. Right. You have to be a weirdo to be. Especially in the early 09 a stuff when it's like much more just like occulty stuff with like stupid rituals and like, whatever. We didn't mention the Star Game, which is also something that you do as an adept or whatever to, I don't know, to raise your level or whatever. You have to play this stupid game and all this kind of stuff. These people are all nerds. So, like insight roles, it's kind of, I think, from what I've seen, like, easy to spot them. Right. Because they're not particularly good at hiding who they are.
- [43:02]
B
No, I mean, the point is not to hide that. Like, it's like, you know, David Mike himself having like 10 web pages about himself. Like, if you do it and no one knows, like, then what's the point? You know, they want to be seen as evil and mysterious.
- [43:16]
A
Yeah.
- [43:16]
B
So, yeah.
- [43:17]
A
So then in the 90s, you get Nexians, like local groups kind of popping up via the Internet. So they were, you know, they're big in this kind of Internet 1.0. Right. They were like using chat rooms a lot. They were even like, what was it? They were. They were in Yahoo. Chats all the time. They had the, like.
- [43:35]
B
Yeah, the 90s and like early 2000s, the order of nine angles was a Yahoo. Group, like email group or whatever. So chat group, basically that was the. The order of nine Angles at that time. And through the Internet, they, as you said, they started a few nexions in different places, including the United States.
- [43:55]
A
Right.
- [43:55]
B
But this is like, only like, I don't know, that group had like a few. I don't know if they had 30 people there, but it was probably less than that.
- [44:02]
A
Yeah. Worldwide and. Yeah, you start getting it right in Australia to New Zealand kind of a lot through the English speaking world and then. And then beyond. Right, yeah.
- [44:12]
B
And so this is the, this is kind of the, the second phase, I think we called it is like, you know, late 90s, early 2000s is when they have actually some People identifying as the members of Order of Nine Angles because of the, you know, communication through the Internet. So they have a few Nexians or, you know, it's all. Also probably just a few people here and there doing stuff. And, you know, we had access to their messages and so on. And it was a kind of a funny period of their history. I mean, all of it is kind of funny, but also, you know, we don't want to say that they're not dangerous. These people, like killed people. Yeah. Like continue to do that. People influenced by them and so on. But it also kind of pretty pathetic. So there was a. There were a few Nexians in the United States. One was. What was it? It's called the White Star.
- [45:09]
A
White or something, right?
- [45:11]
B
Yeah, something like that. W S a. Yeah, Nexion, headed by Chloe Ortega. And then there was also the. The Temple of Blood in the United States, which was an action of the Order of Nine Angles in South Carolina. Right. Yeah. Headed by Joshua Caleb Sutter.
- [45:34]
A
And it should be said just real quick, before we get into Temple of Blood, just to address like the. The organizational structure here, because despite, you know, what they say a lot, you know, that it's. It's completely free form. Right. That it's not an organization. It's. It's a decentralized kind of network. That's true to an extent. But also they have like, you know, they had at least an official publication, right. In Fenrir, which is their, you know, their magazine or whatever. Was it annually, annual magazine or something, you know, which had its editors. They had a, you know, the Outer Representative. Who is like, what?
- [46:18]
B
The outer head, I think. Or are. Representative, I think.
- [46:21]
A
It's not a representative. Yeah, yeah.
- [46:22]
B
That they stole from the oto. Crowley's oto. They. The head of the OTO is called the Outer Head. So they even. That they stole.
- [46:31]
A
Yeah. So there is. There is definitely like a structure there which you know, maybe got more decentralized as it grew on the Internet, but it definitely had like, you know, whatever, a kind of central organization to it in some form or another. Yeah.
- [46:48]
B
Yes. And then this would. This is like when it was very funny because we saw their communication from that period. I think it was the early 2000s, when David Myers, using other names, because David Ma pretends that he's a whole Nexion of over the nine Angles, which he calls the seven Oxonians or something like that, which is supposedly based in Oxford, it's only Kim. And he uses a few different name names for these seven Fictional people that he made up.
- [47:21]
A
Yeah.
- [47:22]
B
So he represents himself occasionally as each of these seven different people, characters that he created. So, you know, they're admired as. As one or a few of seven Oxonians was in that time frustrated because there was a. Some kind of a novel appeared in which the antagonists were the Order of Nine Angles. Someone heard about that thing and it was inspired to write some fiction which the order of some group or the called Order Nine Angles will play some part. But they admire. Was frustrated by how much this fictional version of the Order Nine Angles was much cooler and more even the real thing, which is this Yahoo. Yahoo Group doing nothing.
- [48:06]
A
Yahoo. Group of fucking nerds chatting. Yeah.
- [48:10]
B
And at the time, Chloe Ortega was, you know, the outer representative. And she was blamed for the Order of Nine Angles not being sufficiently cool and evil. And on the other hand, the Temple of Blood was like a more promising group because they embrace the whole evil shit much more, you know, Much more. So they became, at that point, because of this reason, the outer representatives of the Order of Nine Angles, which basically meant, you know, Joshua Sutter and his wife Jillian Hoy.
- [48:46]
A
Right. And we should mention here that like, for example, Chloe Ortega was based in la. She's not white. Which again, gets into. Well, we can talk about how they see race in a bit too. But, you know, these were like, basically kids at the time. I think Chloe was probably a teenager.
- [49:09]
B
I think that Satir was like around 20 years old or.
- [49:13]
A
Yeah. So this is like pretty young people, right? This is like early, like, you know, like nerds on the Internet reading about shit as. As kids.
- [49:21]
B
But you. So Joshua Satri, you know, who then becomes a kind of a central person in the international Order of Nine Angles, which is, you know, only a few dozen people worldwide because he's sufficiently evil, as seen by David Mite, to, you know, create this image for them that they want to have. And it's all about creating an image. It's creating a brand. This is like, you want to feel cool by making people think that you are very dangerous and mysterious is the whole idea.
- [49:54]
A
Yeah.
- [49:55]
B
They were trying to influence at that time, like David Icke conspiracy theories, who talks about reptilians. It tried to persuade him that they are reptilian or something like that. One of the strategies that of course, through the Internet, this is like the. The perfect kind of.
- [50:14]
A
Yeah. The other people in the comment section, like on David Icke's forum in like 2004, you know what I mean? It's just a bunch of Niners being Like, that's. Those were their, like, targeted campaigns as like, a sinister organization.
- [50:28]
B
And so Joshua Sutter has his own Nazi history, although he's very young.
- [50:32]
A
So, yeah. Joshua Caleb Sutter, just again, to repeat, is the head of kind of the most influential American Nexian of the Order of Nine Angles. That kind of developed in its own. Kind of developed into its own thing.
- [50:49]
B
Yes.
- [50:50]
A
Later on.
- [50:51]
B
But he had. He was like an active member of Aryan Nations.
- [50:55]
A
Yeah.
- [50:56]
B
And he was like a. I think a preacher.
- [50:58]
A
Because his dad was a Nazi too.
- [51:01]
B
Right.
- [51:01]
A
His dad was an Aryan nations guy.
- [51:03]
B
Right. I think his dad was. His dad was like a League of the south guy who was like. I don't think. He wasn't like a. He was a, you know, a. A racist or fascist preacher. But I'm not sure if he was like Aryan Nations. Like, he was Christian identity guy. Maybe he was. I don't know. But he had like, this kind of a racist shop in South Carolina where they lived, in which Joshua also worked. But Joshua was a member of the Aryan nations, which is a Christian identity group. And he called himself. What is the term? Phineas Priest or something like that.
- [51:41]
A
Yeah, Phineas Priest, which is a term.
- [51:43]
B
They came up with from. Which means that's like a kind of what, a group within the Christian identity movement which. Who want to kill interracial couples.
- [52:00]
A
Right.
- [52:01]
B
Basically inspired by something that, you know, exists in the Old Testament. I think so. Yeah. He identified as that. And he was. Because after, you know, Richard Butler, the original. The founder and leader of Aryan nations died, they split into some factions. And he was. Joshua Satra was a part of the faction led by that guy. Kreis was his last name.
- [52:27]
A
Yeah.
- [52:27]
B
Who was his mentor, who went into prison for molesting his grandchildren or something like that. And then. Yeah, he was one of the leaders in, like, even a preacher inside of the. That movement because they also have a church called the Church of Jesus Christ Christian.
- [52:46]
A
Yes.
- [52:47]
B
Founded by one of my favorite.
- [52:48]
A
One of my favorite names of all time.
- [52:50]
B
Yeah. So. And then Joshua Sutter went to prison in the early 2000s for buying a gun from a fed.
- [53:01]
A
Yep.
- [53:02]
B
And when in prison, he. He became informant for the FBI.
- [53:07]
A
Yeah. And this is something that was officially revealed. Right. In a couple years ago. His. His long standing role as. As a snitch for the FBI, who, you know, bankrolled, basically bankrolled the Temple of Blood, although it had been kind of known in those circles before that.
- [53:27]
B
I mean, I think when he was arrested in 2003, people from the Aryan nations immediately said that. Because he was not the only one. Because when he was arrested after that, some other people were arrested. And those people said they were arrested because he snitched on them.
- [53:43]
A
Yeah, because they went to prison and he didn't. So that's usually a classic.
- [53:47]
B
I think he did for some time, but.
- [53:49]
A
Yeah, yeah. But not.
- [53:50]
B
Not.
- [53:50]
A
Not very long.
- [53:51]
B
Yeah. And so after that, you know, he becomes the outer representative of the Order Nine Angles and Forms. Probably Temple of Blood existed in the 90s, maybe under a different name, because there were some other occultists in America who were part of it. I forget their names now. They're kind of well known in the occult circles who were affiliated with the Order of Nine Angles and Temple of Blood a lot of. Because Temple of Blood, unlike the. The rest of the Order Nine Angles up to that point, they were very much into vampire.
- [54:27]
A
Yeah, yeah. Right.
- [54:29]
B
And this came out from these other Americans who are a bit older than Joshua Sutter. One is that guy Ea Coating.
- [54:38]
A
Oh, right.
- [54:41]
B
Yeah, whatever. It's not his real name. And there was some other guy with last name Ford. I think they were the original kind of people who founded basically, the Temple of Blood.
- [54:51]
A
Yeah. Or at least inspired the direction that the. That the Temple of Blood would go in.
- [54:56]
B
Yes. In this, like. It's like this kind of glorification of vampirism and, like, predatory stuff.
- [55:02]
A
Yes.
- [55:03]
B
Which is, like, very much, you know, in tune with the whole Order of Nine Angles idea of, you know, overcoming humanity through transgression and so on. And in general, kind of fascist, social Darwinist view of people, you know.
- [55:19]
A
Right, right.
- [55:20]
B
You have predator and prey and so on.
- [55:23]
A
Yeah. And so the ultimate goal is to become, like, the. The true predator or whatever.
- [55:27]
B
Yes. Yes. So the guy who. It's. It was Michael Ford was the guy who was.
- [55:33]
A
Yeah.
- [55:34]
B
With creating kind of the. The original Temple of Blood that existed maybe under a different name in the 90s. But they. The two of them were the guys who were pushing the. The vampire stuff early on. And I think they were the ones who published the first books in the late 90s, early 2000s, with the name Temple of Blood.
- [55:54]
A
And that's Temple spelled wrong OV Blood.
- [55:59]
B
Yes.
- [56:00]
A
Just to be clear, I mean, I'm.
- [56:02]
B
I think there is some influence there of the Temple of the Psychic Youth.
- [56:07]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [56:09]
B
I'm not completely clear. There are some people claiming there is more. More of a connection there, but I haven't seen anything really. But. But I'm very interested in that possible connection. And so. So in the. You know in the 2000s, Joshua SATA takes over the Temple of Blood and then basically becomes the kind of the central figure of the new, even more evil order of nine angles.
- [56:34]
A
Right. Because I think, I think what Temple of Blood does and, and that's what makes it important in this whole story is that it really kind of helps make the 09A in into what we know it as today. And I think like, you know, you know they had some, some youthful energy that came in there and was like basically like oh, all that 1970s evil stuff isn't evil enough. You know, it's the 90s baby. It's the early 2000s and now we're, you know, now we're into vampires and serial killers and all this kind of stuff. And so the developments that the Temple of Blood makes to the whole kind of onane world to actually make it have a place in, in the Neo Nazi world. Because before this, although you know, David my himself was important in Neo Nazi circles And in the UK you couldn't really say that there was like a major 9A presence in the Neo Nazi world. And that's certainly not the case anymore. And this is a development that comes with the Temple of Blood. The American main American nexian of the 09A.
- [57:47]
B
Yes. I mean early on they were start starting to do like they were doing crazy things that I guess which David might like this is why they. He saw potential in them. So they were doing even like things in on this other plane of you know, let's, let's call it political activity or this type of, you know, insight roles parallel to their like development of the actual nexion is like they. So Joshua Sartre and Gillian Hoy were involved in this whole thing with this kind of pro North Korea groups in America in the early 2000s that the late journalist Nate Thayer wrote about. Yeah. About that whole ordeal. It's a funny bizarre story. They started a fake communist group called the Rural so People's Party which is this kind of a pro North Korea Jim Jones.
- [58:44]
A
Jim Jones thought yes.
- [58:47]
B
Pol Pot inspired fake group out of the trailer there in South Carolina and got involved with other people who were, you know, kind of crazy loner types who were not. Not Satanists but into that kind of stuff. There was even an alleged attempt to kill one guy in order to take over the American pro North Korea movement from him. Yeah, it's quite bizarre story. And. But parallel to that they, they were Temple of Blood. There was also they were close collaborators of another guy we talked about called James Parazo. Who at that time came out of prison, got involved with Joshua Satter and his activities, pro North Korea activities. Parazo was in the 90s, a leader of an American neo Nazi skinhead group called American Front and then kind of left the scene for some period and came back and then tried with Joshua Satler and his new friends to take over American Front again from the boneheads who were took the leaders. At that point there was some infighting there, alleged the. The other people, the other skinheads allegedly tried to even to kill James Porazo to hire American combat, 18 people to kill him. There was a whole thing going on there. We talked about that in the American Front episode.
- [60:15]
A
Yeah.
- [60:16]
B
Parazo and Hoy and Sato at that time started their kind of Hare Krishna inspired cult.
- [60:28]
A
Right?
- [60:28]
B
Yeah, yeah. So they were part of that as well. New Bihar Mandir, which was like this kind of a weird Hare Krishna Satanist Nazi group that they had. Yeah, but they had connections with the Hare Krishna movement. There are photographs of them, I mean, going there and so on. So that existed as well. Kind of a weird story. And then what is most important for this story is that I think. So in 2013, younger people, a new generation of Neo Nazis who are, you know, mostly from through the Internet and through the Internet forum called Iron Gates, they start a new group. I mean, it's not really a group at that point, but something called Atomwaffen Division.
- [61:16]
A
Yeah.
- [61:16]
B
And around 2013, this starts. It's a kind of an extreme nihilist form of Neo Nazism that, you know, embraces extreme violent shit. And also, you know, the book Siege by James Mason that, you know, supports very violent stuff, terrorism, serial killers and so on. We talked about that a lot. I mean, James Mason is a whole other story.
- [61:45]
A
Yeah.
- [61:45]
B
And he has his own connections with, you know, Satanists in America of a different type and this whole industrial scene from the 90s and 80s. But so Atomwaffen kind of embraces that legacy.
- [62:00]
A
Yeah.
- [62:01]
B
But one of their members, initially not a leader, but acting more like from the shadows, is Joshua Sutter. He has his own followers inside Atomwaffen Division. One of them is John Cameron Denton. Other guys called Caleb Cole. So Joshua Caleb Satter. And then there is a younger guy called Caleb.
- [62:28]
A
Caleb Cole. Yeah.
- [62:29]
B
Yes. So John Cameron Denton, who likes to call himself Rape.
- [62:36]
A
Right.
- [62:37]
B
Probably inspired by Boyd Rice, I think, in that. And Caleb Cole, they are like black metal guys, Neo Nazi black metal guys who are into occult stuff and so on. And they are, I think, members of the Temple of Blood at that time.
- [62:52]
A
Yeah.
- [62:53]
B
Already probably like around 2013 or so. And then I think in 2015, I don't remember exactly the timeline, the original leader of the Atom of Division goes to prison. There is this one atom of member kills two other members, his roommates, and then the leader of the group goes to prison because he had some explosives on him and so on. And this is when basically Denton and Caleb Cole were members of the Temple of Blood followers of Joshua Sartre and the whole Order of Nine Angles thing become the new leaders of the Atomwaff in Division.
- [63:36]
A
Right.
- [63:37]
B
And so in some around that time, Temple of Blood and Joshua Caleb Sutter, they produced a book called Iron Gates.
- [63:46]
A
Yes.
- [63:47]
B
Which is like this is kind of.
- [63:48]
A
Their most important contribution to the canon, I guess. Yeah.
- [63:53]
B
Which is a very shitty post apocalyptic novel. Kind of really gross stuff. There is like, you know, it's about rape, killing children.
- [64:06]
A
I think the opening of it's like a killing a child or something.
- [64:09]
B
Pedophilia, all the most horrible like things that are supposed to shock you or whatever. So, you know, Autumn Buffing Division is the one. They had this kind of slogan and almost kind of a motto for them was read Siege. You know, they propagated siege seeds. The book Siege by James Mason was kind of required reading for Atomwaffen members. And then after this period, Iron Gates also became required reading for them. So they would also write, you know, read Iron Gates and so on.
- [64:38]
A
Yeah.
- [64:39]
B
So if you wanted to be up from that point on affiliated with Atlantivision, you won't also needed to embrace Iron Gates as well. Yeah, yeah.
- [64:50]
A
And this, this really greatly expands, like I said, the. Any influence that the 09A ever had and within like Neo Nazi circles. Because then, you know, a text produced by the South Carolina Nexian becomes required reading in like a, you know, Atomwaffen international terror network.
- [65:10]
B
Yes.
- [65:10]
A
Oh yeah. And let's, let's, let's again mention the whole snitch thing because it is important. So I mean, kind of one of the craziest parts of the story of the Temple of Blood is again the fact that Joshua Caleb Sutter was a paid FBI informant this whole time. So you know, what ends up giving the 09A a foothold in the Neo Nazi movement is sponsored directly by the FBI. So, you know, Josh Sutter is, you know, living in his trailer in South Carolina and they're putting out publishing texts like Iron Gates and they had the, they had their own publication, the other one. Right. The False Prophet.
- [65:50]
B
Martinet. Martinet.
- [65:52]
A
Martinet Press.
- [65:53]
B
Yeah.
- [65:54]
A
And all of this is paid for by the US Government, which is just amazing. Pretty crazy. But then, you know, which also lends itself more into this mythology of. Of like, you know, the, the onane and Temple of Blood being part of like a kind of gladio type, you know, destabilization campaign. Yeah.
- [66:18]
B
I mean, in addition to Satra, who was informant, there was also also at least one actual FBI agent inside out of invasion.
- [66:27]
A
Right. I mean, every, you know, Nazi group in America is infiltrated in some way or another by.
- [66:32]
B
For sure. Yeah.
- [66:33]
A
It's a. It's a well known phenomenon.
- [66:35]
B
This is also kind of maybe a bit specific that, you know, kind of one of the leaders and main ideologues of the group pushing like this. Yeah. Like, you know, this is a pretty extreme group, but it needed some pushing even for them to adopt this extremely kind of degenerate ideology, you know.
- [66:52]
A
Yeah.
- [66:53]
B
Which was, you know, published by the FBI. You know, there was some resistance even among Atomwaff and Division people to Iron Gates.
- [67:02]
A
Yeah. Like, it's too much.
- [67:04]
B
Yeah.
- [67:05]
A
And. And you know, in part of, you know, it's. It's an Iron Gates. Right. Is this whole mythology that they promote of being like, whatever, special agents or something. Right. Like, they're. They're kind of obsessed with being like, affiliated with like the Deep State and intelligence and stuff like that. It's. It's like. Yeah, they idolize the whole mythology.
- [67:29]
B
Yeah. They basically idolize, you know, in the Deep State and like. And also like Special Forces and you know, but they view them, I mean, kind of like, you know, there's this new book about the. The Fort Bragg cartel and the. The way that like, Set Harp writes about these operators of, you know, JSOC and so on. I think the Temple of Blood people would love.
- [67:52]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [67:53]
B
That's kind of what they like, you know, kind of crazy, you know, drug fueled, like maniacs killing everyone and like, and also dealing drugs and, you know, so that, you know, that's kind of the dehumanization stuff that they like.
- [68:12]
A
Right. And. And it goes along with the traditional Nazi fetishism for like state violence. Right. Yeah. So that in that sense, it's not. It's not unique, but.
- [68:22]
B
No.
- [68:23]
A
Yeah, it's definitely part of the whole story.
- [68:25]
B
So Atomwaffen Division, really, and the groups they inspire. There were a few, including the Bass and a few other ones. They kind of. They are the product of this. David Myatt's idea how the Order Nine Angles must become more like the fictional version of it was in reality. So really, with those groups, really, for the first time, you actually have, in reality, something like what the Order of Nine Angles, you know, claimed or wanted to be in these groups. So. And. And this, of course, creates problem for them because now they have a name, they have some kind of a membership. They do stuff. They do violent stuff. People end up dead. And then after some years, they are on a brink of being. I guess the rumor was they will be proclaimed a foreign terrorist organization. Foreign because, I mean, as I think Spencer Scheinson proclaimed, there are no. In America, domestic terrorist organizations. Like, you cannot be on a list of something like that, like. Of a. Like prescribed domestic terrorist organization. But you can be as a foreign terrorist organization. And there was a. Because they spread, like, through the Internet. And there was a Russian affiliate, the Atom Waffen Division. Russia.
- [69:49]
A
Yeah.
- [69:49]
B
And through that, there was some rumor that they will be, you know, designated as a foreign terrorist organization. And because they had this. And there was already. They were already in the news and their members were being arrested and so on. So they were closely affiliated with James Mason, who was a kind of advisor to them. So they decided to officially disband the organization, which was. No, there was a video by James Mason saying how they no longer exist. I forget. What year was this? Do you remember?
- [70:19]
A
No. Me, too. I was just trying to rack my brain, which has been, you know, so destroyed and riddled by all this stuff that we've read over the years. Sometimes those dates don't stick out for me.
- [70:32]
B
So sometime after that, or I also forget this timeline. But around that time, it was also officially confirmed that Joshua Satra, who up to that point was one of the leaders of Atlaffin, was an FBI informant for, you know, 15 years at that point, or maybe even more.
- [70:52]
A
No, I mean, and then this kind of revelation of, you know, Sutter is a snitch. The FBI basically created Temple of Blood, or at least facilitated it, which is, you know, kind of the most grotesque metastasis of. Of the 09A, as it developed, did cause kind of a rupture and, like, lots of problems then for the 09A as a whole. Right. And you start to see a lot of splintering in. So if we're. We're talking like, pretty recently. Right. Within the last five years. Yeah.
- [71:27]
B
And also their leaders were arrested, like Denton and Caleb Collide. Denton spent a few years in prison. I think he's out now. So there was, like, a bad time for them.
- [71:35]
A
Yeah.
- [71:35]
B
And then it was revealed that he's a snitch. And then as you said, they splintered, so they changed. They officially disbanded, but they reorganized as a National Socialist order, started publishing this website, American Futurist.
- [71:49]
A
Yeah.
- [71:50]
B
And officially like purge Satanism and said it was all the fault of the Satanists. Right. But then after some time, they kind of discovered that they're still infiltrated by. By Satanists. Yeah, they are secret Satanists instead of the tiny group. So they had a. A split. So in like the Nationalist Socialist Order split into the Satanist and non Satanist factions.
- [72:15]
A
Right.
- [72:15]
B
The non Satanist was. Was the National Socialist Revolutionary Front.
- [72:20]
A
Something like that. Yeah.
- [72:21]
B
Which was. Which was one that would. Continues to be affiliated with, I think, James Mason and like American Futurist website and was more now like defined by siege stuff and not by order of 9 Angles. And the ones who wanted to remain order 9 Angles affiliated formed a group called the Nationally Socialist Order of Nine Angles.
- [72:40]
A
Yes.
- [72:41]
B
And their leader is a former anarchist Alf prisoner, Walter Bond.
- [72:47]
A
Yeah.
- [72:47]
B
Who became a Nazi during.
- [72:49]
A
While he was in prison.
- [72:50]
B
No, when he's in prison. And after going out to prison, met James Mason. We have photographs of them together and so on. But even for them, it was like. Because now they are like, they're continuing the legacy of a confirmed snitch.
- [73:03]
A
Yeah.
- [73:05]
B
So, but even for them, they didn't want to do it so openly. So the national associates of Nine Angles are kind of. They're not saying broad Joshua Satter things, I think, openly.
- [73:15]
A
Yeah.
- [73:16]
B
Like, but then there were. There are people who had no problems with completely, you know, embracing the legacy of a snitch.
- [73:25]
A
Right. Because I think the way that they see it is like, okay, you know, it's in Iron Gates, they. They fetishize the. The deep state. Right. So in some ways they're like, well, isn't this. What. Like, isn't this just proof that, you know, Sutter. Is this like superhuman or, you know, ubermensch or whatever? Because he gamed the system or whatever.
- [73:44]
B
Yeah, yeah. And so there is like a. Let's call it like, you know, a third faction which is like this openly pro satyr faction calling itself Satanic Front. Yeah, it used to be. It used to be who. Who have no problem saying that they like, saturate old and that he's a snitch. And that's great.
- [74:02]
A
And they're kind of the, you know, very extreme right, like, taking the whole. The whole Satanist part very seriously, but then also, like, jettisoning like, what they consider to be like, the gay European influence of like my. Its own ine. And so it gets into like, you know, where we're the real evil ones. We don't listen to like, you know, British, you know, tea sipping. We like monster trucks and titties and that kind of stuff.
- [74:31]
B
Yes, exactly. And. And so this is a new thing like shitting on David Myatt.
- [74:36]
A
Yeah.
- [74:37]
B
Which I think also is connected with the. David Myatt got scared and started renouncing Joshua Satter and saying that he never had anything to do with him. That's just a like a deep state plant and has nothing to do with it. And the seven Oxonians renounced the Order of Nine Angles and said they are doing their own thing now and so on. Yeah, he was in a bit of a panic, so. And this is why the Americans now like really shit on him. Both the, the National Socialist of Order of Nine Angles and the Satanic Front openly pro Joshua Sadder people sit on David. Matt. Yeah, and I think that is if there really is a difference between the, the National Sorcerer's Order of Nine Angles and Satanic Front. I'm not even sure like maybe they are like really in communication. Maybe no one really has a problem with Joshua Satcher, but some at least say they, they don't openly embrace a snitch and some do.
- [75:32]
A
Yeah.
- [75:33]
B
So this cheating on David Meyer is definitely kind of a new development. And then so through these kind of national. Through the, the Satanic Front development is how you get to newer Things like 7, 6, 4.
- [75:50]
A
Yeah.
- [75:51]
B
Allegedly there, there is some connection between some people at least reported there is some connection between Joshua Satter and development like 764 which is like even more this kind of really embracing the whole being a piece of shit idea.
- [76:07]
A
Yeah. Even more so I think than Temple of blood because. So 764 is a pretty recent, let's say network, right. Known for basically online sharing of like child abuse, pedophilia and like encouraging kind of preying on like vulnerable mostly teenagers online and. And like. Yeah, blackmailing them into doing like horrible things including like committing suicide and stuff like that. 764. You know, obviously we've been saying this for a while. We need to do like just a full episode just on that. But it is yeah like this kind of child abuse cult that exists online. Some of their kind of leadership has been rounded up in recent years. This guy, Prasan Nepal and what's his name, he had a funny name like Kaden Head Bradley Cadenhead. So they've, you know, they've been locked up and then you know, 764 draws direct lines to several mass shootings. Mass shooters like the, the. The guy who shot up the bar in Slovakia a few years ago and stuff like that. So I mean this is kind of where we start seeing a kind of more direct influence into things like actual like mass shootings and the like. But at this. You know, but with 764 it's kind of hard to even. It is 09A inspired. I mean it comes. It develops out of kind of Temple of Blood philosophy. But at that point it's, it's. It's very in some ways different from like the original 09A in like the Miata in the sense. No, like they're, they're doing the things that you know, my thought though, 9A should do while meanwhile like the kind of official oh 9A was kind of disintegrating online.
- [78:10]
B
Well, yeah, I mean because it is a development out of the people who have no problems of saying that they will follow a confirmed informant and that.
- [78:19]
A
They openly embrace things like pedophilia and, and yeah. Murder and that kind of thing.
- [78:24]
B
Yeah, I mean they did embrace it even before but now it's like kind of even more central thing to them. But I think it's consequence of being so gone that you can just having no saying that you have no problems of being you know, a follower of a guy who gets people arrested who are like supposedly his comrades in you know, Atenwaff and Division and so on. So just you know, it's kind of a new level of nihilism.
- [78:49]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And this, this kind of new level of nihilism that comes out of this merging of both kind of siege pilled ideas of James Mason and then you know, the 09A slash, you know, Temple of Blood mixed in with again this, this whole other world of like online fandoms of like, you know, whatever mass shooters. The Columbine, like the cult around the Columbine kids and that kind of stuff. So. Yeah, and that's where the obvious lines come to then this Minneapolis shooting as well. Right?
- [79:26]
B
Yeah. I guess there is a connection there that's you know, it's. It becomes this kind of stuff becomes a part of this kind of new forming purely kind of nihilist mass shooter mythology. So it's like doesn't really. They reference other mass shooters and whatever they were into.
- [79:45]
A
Right.
- [79:45]
B
So it can be you know, supporting the celebrity genocide or 764 thing. Like it's whatever completely up people who become mass shooters are into.
- [79:55]
A
Yeah. You know, and, and it should be Mentioned also that like the kind of cult around mass shooters and Columbine and stuff is separate from like the 09A. There is overlap. It's, you know, there's, it's. But it's a whole separate up world of like, because, you know, for example, like the whole cult around Columbine existed Well before like the 09A had any kind of foothold outside of like, you know, Yahoo Chat groups and stuff like that. You know that, that started up immediately after like Columbine. Right. And the whole like.
- [80:26]
B
Although these, the kind of siege field at the Buff inspired Nazis were kind of a big part of the creation of that cult.
- [80:35]
A
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [80:36]
B
Yeah.
- [80:36]
A
But then they're not always the same thing. No, is what I'm. What I'm saying.
- [80:40]
B
Yeah. It's more likely they like that you will like those people were more inspired by siege than by the order nine angles.
- [80:47]
A
Yeah, I think for sure. And that's, that's why I think it's important to kind of address these things too because it's, it's a lot easier to just be like, well there's this like terrifying, you know, Nazi Satanist network out there that's, you know, radicalizing the youth and making them do mass shootings. Like when you read some of the kind of more sensationalist articles about that, it's like that the 09A is out there like you know, seeking out people and training them to do mass shootings and stuff. And I think that's, that's a bit far fetched based on, based on our experience. But let's get to the mythology in just a second. I just want to bring it back real quick to Myatt and what's going on with him now because if we're talking about like since, you know, he started it as Anton Long, which he vehemently denies now, you know, Myatt himself has to very publicly distance himself from all the Temple of Blood stuff because of the risk of, you know, basically going to prison in the uk.
- [81:53]
B
Yeah.
- [81:55]
A
You know, did one actually end up getting prescribed? I don't know.
- [81:59]
B
That was. I think not. But there for years there were some talks about that.
- [82:04]
A
Yeah. So I mean my spends a lot of time online like jumping through hoops to kind of clear his name. Even though, you know, from the very beginning it's been like this. Right. This is so officially, I guess from what he says and what other long time on in A people say is that the Onion A has been officially dissolved. Right.
- [82:29]
B
Yeah.
- [82:30]
A
And now they follow what is it the hebdomian way or whatever of some Myatt's new philosophy. But again, Myatt's been saying for decades that, you know, he rejected extremism. They developed this whole other kind of, let's say inclusive vision of, of National Socialism called Reichsfolk.
- [82:54]
B
I mean that, that's, that was, that whole idea was created because he had one friend in the world, Richard Mold, who wanted to do things with him and who was not always comfortable with being a Nazi.
- [83:04]
A
Right.
- [83:04]
B
So like David might created his whole ideology of how you can be a non racist Nazi just to keep his friend. I think.
- [83:12]
A
Yes. And yeah, that idea is that like. Yeah, you know, there's what, what National Socialism really strives for is like the liberation of all people from like whatever the Jewish world system or whatever. And, and that's how you can get. But that's why like, you know, the 9A is weird in that sense and within Nazi circles is that like, you know, they're not all white, for example. I mean, okay, that exists in, in other Nazi groups as well. But like you know, Chloe Ortegas of like Cambodian origin and then like, you know, she writes a lot about like, you know, Aryanism and like ancient Cambodia and stuff like that. That's kind of the more nerdy segment. That's still. But that's, that's, that's what officially, you know, Myatt says is going on. And, and that is like the 9A is no more. And that's everything he says is.
- [84:07]
B
Yeah, but I mean to some degree it never really existed, but to degree that it did exist, I mean now it exists more than ever in terms of like how many people identify with it. Yeah, which is what it always was. It was people identifying with this ideology and ideas through the Internet really. And maybe forming small groups or none at all really.
- [84:30]
A
Yeah.
- [84:30]
B
And doing shit on their own.
- [84:32]
A
And I think a lot of people, you know, they get caught up in the Satanist aspect of it and not in the Nazi one or sometimes vice versa. But I mean it is, it is important to emphasize that like the, the Nazi aspect of 09A is there from its inception. That's what it's there for. It's a vehicle for kind of occultist Nazi ideas.
- [84:53]
B
I mean it's part of their like, you can't call it theology but like whatever worldview of the northern nine Angles is Nazi. Like it was an essential part of it. Like. Yeah, the whole, the whole Vindex thing and the, you know, creating the galactic imperium which was the goal or the order of nine angles depending on rejecting the lie of the Holocaust. I mean, that's right.
- [85:17]
A
Right. An essential part of the philosophy. And so, like, you know, sometimes you see a lot of stuff that's kind of more satanic panic aspect of, like, talking about the 09A and, you know, the whole, like, there are actually, like, evil Satanists everywhere. And it's, you know, it's important to also contextualize that within this kind of political sphere. Although, you know. Yeah, it gets confusing. I mean.
- [85:43]
B
Yeah, I mean, it is confusing.
- [85:46]
A
It is, it is. Yeah, absolutely.
- [85:47]
B
And also completely, like, horrifying. Like, we really resisted of going into the 7, 6, 4 thing because it's so dark, even for us.
- [85:54]
A
Yeah.
- [85:55]
B
So I really didn't read much about it because it's really horrible stuff.
- [86:00]
A
Yeah.
- [86:01]
B
So. Yeah, but I guess we should. I mean. Yeah, but. Yeah.
- [86:09]
A
And. Okay, so now I think let's. Let's just talk real quick. We started talking about this now, but just how to deal with kind of the Mythology of the 09A, like, what it is and what it isn't, I think is rather important in terms of, like, how it's being talked about today. And like you said at the beginning, we've always kind of emphasized that it's important to see them for what they are and not what they want to. How they want to portray themselves. And that's, I think, really something that I will continue to emphasize to anybody who, like, goes down that rabbit hole is that, like, take them seriously in the sense that, you know, anybody that adheres to kind of that type of, like, nihilistic worldview where, like, you know, anything goes right to achieve your goal, whether it's, you know, killing people or pedophilia, rape, that kind of thing, that should be taken seriously. But it's. It's important to also see them as, like, as morons. And.
- [87:13]
B
Yeah.
- [87:15]
A
In the case of my, like, an absolutely insufferable, like, nerd who will come when he's summoned and write just pages and pages and pages of gibberish because they want to be seen as evil. They want to be seen as. As dangerous and important. And I think we should not promote their vision of themselves as much as possible.
- [87:43]
B
Yes. I mean, for sure that goes both ways. Like when they were saying that they are, like, they were much more than they were, like, in the 90s. And now when David mine says that they don't exist at all, like, both things are untrue.
- [87:56]
A
Yeah.
- [87:57]
B
But I mean, the one thing that is for sure is that they are not like intellectually, like, interesting. They're not like thinkers or writers or something like that. There are no like, ideas there to be explored or something like that. You know, they. You. I think they're just kind of a symptom of a very fucked up society that we live in. And which doesn't mean they are not important. They are not contributing in a very bad way to it. But, you know, I. I think that, you know, unfortunately, like, things are so bad that we will have school shooters if they never existed, right? But for sure, maybe, maybe we have more now because they exist or they contribute in bad ways. Like, especially if they directly. Some of people, some of the people inspired by, you know, what if you can call it inspired, but you know, who has some connection with these ideas or like whatever you want to call them, you know, if they use that in order to directly speak to children over the Internet and so on. Of course this is very dangerous and, you know, it must be seen for what it is and we might fight against it. But ultimately I don't think they are the reason. The original, kind of the originators of why we have such phenomenon as school shooters or mass shooters and so on, they contribute to that. And for this reason they're dangerous.
- [89:24]
A
But yeah, and I'm also kind of hesitant to attribute like the 09A to being like some sort of really like nefarious, like deep state, like plot for instability or whatever, even though, you know, you have these kind of clear connections to the state in the sense of like Sutter and the FBI. But again, that's true with most Nazi organizations in the US and one can argue, of course, Nazis always play a role for the state in some way or another.
- [89:55]
B
But I mean, you know, it's possible that the state is doing wacky shit. You know, it's usually not what they say it is. You know, it's like. And exactly as you said. So there are like, you know, if you want to talk about the deep state and intelligence, okay, there are connections there. I mean, Satter worked for many years for the FBI. David Mite was quite possibly a part of the column 88, which was connected to the British Army. So connections do exist in both cases because they were Nazis, as you said. But many other Nazis were a part of that who were not Satan.
- [90:29]
A
And I'm kind of hesitant about that too, because they are in some ways incredibly sloppy. You know what I mean? Like the fact that you can like bully my IT online like we did for years, like just like trolling him and stuff. Like, that is. Is not like the sign of a very serious Deep State operation too. And even in places. So, you know, we. We uncovered this longtime 09, a person in Montenegro who became a member of the church, Montenegrin Orthodox Church there, and his wife, who, you know, we have pictures of her reading Iron Gates, worked in the Montenegrin, like, diplomatic corps for a while and was like, you know, involved in politics. Like, they're not good at hiding this stuff very well. Like, it. And even though they. They definitely try, you know, but like, when that guy who we uncovered, Nicola Pollock, when. When he kind of took on the responsibility of being. Was he actually the outer representative for that time period in like 2020 of the United.
- [91:30]
B
I think so, yeah.
- [91:32]
A
I mean, it was easy for us to identify.
- [91:34]
B
Yeah. I mean, they're not serious people. And the tweet. The state doesn't treat them as serious people. Like, if, you know, if Joshua Satter was some important operative for the state, the state wouldn't out him as a snitch in like, that's, you know, public knowledge is that he was an informant in court proceedings and so on. Like, if he was like some very serious operative for the Deep State, he would never be in such a position, you know.
- [92:00]
A
Yeah, it's. It's not like those JSOC guys. Yeah. Who like, operate with absolute, like, impunity. You know what I mean? These people are, like. Are relatively, like, sloppy. They're harmful. Absolutely. But, like, it's important to kind of bring them down a notch and not think of them as these, like, you know, superhuman operators or whatever, taking, I.
- [92:24]
B
Mean, like, very far away from being.
- [92:26]
A
Very, very, very far away from that. You know what I mean? Because, you know, like, one step there is like, after Sutter is like, yes. Satanic front. Who. Who, like, we're just on Facebook and just getting banned because they, you know, kept on posting, like, horrible pictures and shit like that. You could join, like, their internal chats easily and see what was going on. They're just, like, not very good at it. And those are guys who are like, literally in their garage being like, I am evil indeed. You know, like, that kind of like. Like, like, you know, developing a whole, you know, like the Sith Lords guys and like that, like these. So some of this is like straight up clown. You know what I mean?
- [93:07]
B
Yeah.
- [93:08]
A
And it's important to remember that.
- [93:09]
B
Yeah, of course. I mean. Okay, so I completely agree with you. I also, you know, the. I just want to say that, you know, the state is also not beyond doing the very stupid things oh, no, absolutely.
- [93:24]
A
Yeah.
- [93:25]
B
Like founding, you know, the. The publication of Iron Gates, for example. You know, they did that.
- [93:30]
A
Yeah, so, absolutely.
- [93:32]
B
Yeah. Or like horrible. You know, so there. There was. I think we mentioned that before. We never did an episode. There is that, like, professor in, like, Northern Ireland who wrote a book about the. The deep state in Northern Ireland, that British deep state, creating a kind of a satanic panic there in the 70s, using a murder of a child to say they're like Satanists doing that in Northern Ireland in order to scare people and so on. So they were like, you know, doing like that. You know, it's not impossible, but. Yeah, I don't think they're. I don't know. It's kind of. Yeah, they're not. You know, it's kind of strange that Joshua Satter, you know, he idolized Angleton and, you know, the Martinet press, before it was Martinet press was called Angleton Imprints and so on. So they're obviously fans of that. They would like to be seen as that.
- [94:23]
A
Yes. And they're not.
- [94:24]
B
Which. Which makes them. Not that. Because if you're. That you are not having a publishing house called Angleton Imprints.
- [94:32]
A
Right, right, exactly. It's.
- [94:34]
B
It's.
- [94:34]
A
It's crude fandom. James Jesus Angleton, of course, being the CIA, he was what, chief of counterintelligence, the CIA in the 50s and 60s.
- [94:45]
B
Yeah, he's the name. Just like people usually connect with things like Gladio and so on.
- [94:50]
A
Right.
- [94:51]
B
So.
- [94:51]
A
Yeah, yeah. When you do gladio, you don't call it Gladiator. Yeah, yeah.
- [94:56]
B
It's basically like calling, you know, gladio chapter us or something like that.
- [95:00]
A
Yeah.
- [95:01]
B
Which is. Yeah.
- [95:02]
A
But, you know, maybe one day. This is unrelated, but you've. You've spoken about doing episodes of, like, some of the, like, Italian groups that are, what, the 09A wishes it could be in some ways, like the real crazy.
- [95:15]
B
In some ways? Yeah, in some ways. I mean, not in good ways. I mean. No. Like.
- [95:20]
A
I mean, it's never in good ways.
- [95:22]
B
No, it's not. It's not possible to be in good way. I mean, it's like you don't want that. Someone who's more like that in actuality than. Than these people.
- [95:31]
A
Yeah.
- [95:32]
B
So what do you think they were like. Like serial killers? Like fascist serial occult serial killers with connections with the deep state gladio groups in Italy. Yes.
- [95:43]
A
Yeah. So you have that to look forward to further down the line. That's for our old listeners and the new. Yeah, yeah. And with that, I think this has been like our attempt at summarizing, you know, the basic history of. Of the 09A and its affiliates. You know, if you're an old listener, then this is a little refresh of years of material. And if you're new, you know, there's a lot more where this came from. And unfortunately, I don't think it never ends.
- [96:16]
B
Right.
- [96:16]
A
So we're just never going to stop hearing about the 09A. We're never going to stop seeing those connections in places. But yeah, keep. Keep a cool head when looking at it. That's all I'll say.
- [96:29]
B
Yeah.
- [96:29]
A
As much as possible.
- [96:30]
B
Because it's.
- [96:31]
A
It is maddening. It will drive you crazy and it's horrible.
- [96:35]
B
Yeah.
- [96:36]
A
Yeah.
- [96:36]
B
And it's. Yeah. Is in a way complicated, but in some way it's not. Also, I mean, it's complicated if you look at like all the names and different groups that supposedly exist and so on, but it's like, you know, assholes on the Internet who then produce, like very bad things in off the Internet. Yes, well. Yeah.
- [96:59]
A
Yeah. All right, well, thanks everybody for listening and if you're not subscribed, subscribe, and we'll be back at you next week with more stuff. Different stuff, not MNA stuff. All right, see you.
- [97:14]
B
Bye. Ray here. I had a dream and it was that I won't be working in call centers anymore. And you can help that dream become a reality by going to patreon.com and subscribing. And if you're German or Austrian or anti deutsche, whatever you people call yourselves these days, doesn't really matter. The fact is your grandfather killed my grandfather. He marched down the street in my hometown, renamed the square fucking Adolf Hitler Square. You think I'm kidding? All of this actually happened and you should feel bad about it. I don't care if you were born in 97 or wherever you were born. This is not normal behavior, okay? You're not normal. I know people from all of the continents. No one thinks you're normal. But there's good news for you. We made a special tier just for you, so you can pay 10 times as much as a normal person would. It won't make you normal, but it will make you feel feel better. Okay, thanks, Bye.