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[00:01]
A
You're listening to the Good Question podcast with Richard Jacobs. Our goal is to make each of our guests exclaim, hmm, that's a good question. I don't know the answer. Because when that happens, it means you, the listener, may be inspired to learn more beyond the interview and to ask great questions yourself that lead to new insights. In this podcast, we cover historical and current anthropology, comparative religion and history. Welcome. And let's get started.
[00:36]
B
Hello, this is Richard Jacobs with the Good Question podcast. My guest today is Dr. Adi Jaffe. He's the author of the Abstinence Myth and Unhooked. He's a bestselling author with his books published by Hachette, and he's nationally recognized expert on transformation and communication, especially in times of deep crisis. Though his work spans, you know, career type work, mental health, addiction, and relationship crises. He's a lecturer in the UCLA Psychology department for over a decade and, or mostly a decade, and the executive director and co founder of one of the most progressive mental health treatment facilities in the country. And so he started what's called igntd. So instead of me continuing on, probably butchering his biography, I'll let him finish it. But welcome as he.
[01:18]
C
Thank you so much for having me, Richard. Really, really great to be here.
[01:20]
B
Yeah, I think it'll be really important to speak to you because, you know, there's, I know throughout time there's always relationships that run into crises, but I just have the feeling that with, you know, the amount of anxiety today, depression and other mental issues, crises in relationships amongst people have have probably risen quite a bit. But what's up? You know, I guess, I guess let's start with that. In general, what does it look like to work with people over the years, like the past 10 years as it have, problems seem to have grown. Like what? What has changed?
[01:49]
C
That's a great question and one I don't get often. I mean, a few things have changed. First of all, more and more people are shifting their drinking patterns globally without having to be told to do so. That's certainly a shift that's happened in society. To offset that, however, more and more people are smoking weed or Dr. Or consuming THC in other forms. And so that has certainly occurred more. Those are kind of like secular changes around substance use. You know, we used to struggle a lot more with opiates. I'm seeing a drop in that, but now an increase in amphetamines, methamphetamine, cocaine, et cetera. But one of the biggest things that changes, you know, I started doing this 25 years ago is the impact of technology, if I'm honest. So technology. And that's, you know, primarily mobile devices for the people that I see. But use what they use them for. Right. So gaming, gambling and sex or porn. Porn or, you know, being able to interact with live chats, only fans, etc. Those are. I'm seeing more and more and more happening, and that's something that really wasn't even present before at all.
[02:52]
B
What is this doing to relationships? Is it creating a. Like a secret life away from the other person you're having a relationship with, Whether it's like parents or a spouse or, you know, girlfriend or friend or whatever? Like, what is it doing?
[03:05]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think. Look, I think that's what addictions do in general. So, you know, we've created this notion that people who have addiction issues or a special population. I want to dispel that very, very quickly here. Addictions are coping strategy. You can just remove that title that we've given them as a special version of just compulsive habits. They're habits that people have taken on often years ago, often actually decades ago. We were talking 10, 15, 20 years ago in order to protect themselves in some way. And you mentioned some of those ways. So, yes, if you're in a bad marriage and you don't have the tools necessary to deal with conflict constructively and in a way that moves your relationship forward. Drinking day, you get home from work and not really caring as much about the conflict is one way to deal with it. But so is diving into porn. So is gaming under your phone all evening so you don't have to talk to your spouse. Right. They're. They're kind of one in the same. They're an escape route from discomfort. And one of the things that I have to remind everybody is we actually all do it in a way it's not pathological or clinical. For the vast majority of us, we all find ways to escape into behaviors or substances that make life a little bit easier to tolerate. People who struggle with what we call addiction may just have a higher threshold of engaging in those activities. And the consequences that those compulsive behaviors take in their life are substantially more costly and extreme than for some others.
[04:25]
B
Any insight into how these things start? You know, what kind of feedback do you get from people when you ask them that? And, you know, how long it's been going on? That kind of thing?
[04:34]
C
Yeah. You know, there's a thing I talk about in Unhook. I think we make the mistake Oftentimes of thinking that everybody who struggles with an addiction has the same problem. And I don't think that's true at all. So in the medical field and the clinical field, there's a distinction between having a disorder or a disease and that normally has the same ideology or the same route of development. So think to yourself, you know, a flu. You know, I'm trying to think like a specific medical condition that is caused, you know, any bacterial infections that are caused by a specific agent. Right. A virus, a bacteria, something along those lines. Those are always called, like, you can't have the flu without having the flu virus. Does that make sense? It's. That's how we determine that you have that problem. There are other things, like cancers that are similar conditions in the way that they develop. Irritable bowel syndrome, depression. There's a set of symptoms that show up together. But we make the mistakes sometimes. Oftentimes I would say that because the symptoms are similar, the underlying problem is the same. Addiction is exactly that kind of an issue. I call it a syndrome, not a disorder. And the reason is syndrome is just a set of symptoms that show up together. So a compulsive habit that you can't control that is leading to negative consequences. We call that an addiction. The thing that's weird for me about it, Richard, is we call it an addiction to the thing. Right. So, like, you have a cocaine addiction suggests that your problem is cocaine. You have an alcohol addiction suggests your problem is alcohol. I don't think that's true. There's trauma, there's rel. There are relationship issues. There's, you know, deep, like, physical and emotional pain, you know, discontent, boredom, attention issues, and impulsivity. Those are all different factors or different variables that contribute to how likely it is you'll have an addiction issue. A compulsive habit, but they're not the same. Right. Treating somebody who has depression and anxiety in a similar manner, using the same tools as somebody who has severe PTSD is very unlikely to lead to positive results because you're not dealing with the same issue.
[06:26]
B
What about people that say, I don't have an addictive personality? I'm lucky. I don't get sucked into that kind of stuff versus people that are like, oh, man, I have an addictive personality. I can't even begin down that path because I know I'll get sucked in.
[06:38]
C
Yeah. First of all, there's no. I do love that phrasing. We don't have really an indicator of what the heck an addictive personality is. Is now what some people mean by that is if I start doing something that feels really good, it's hard for me to stop myself. Right. That's essentially what they're saying. Well, you know, the funny thing is to see somebody try to navigate today's world if they consider themselves having that kind of a personality. I mean, your phone is addictive. TV shows have addictive, you know, dopamine releasing aspects to them, but so is sex, so is food. I mean, if you have that type of personality, you either have to be a hermit based on your own definition, because you can't expose yourself to anything that is rewarding, anything that's pleasure inducing, or you just have to live a very miserable life, constantly fluctuating between these different coping strategies. I think there's an issue with the phrasing, and that's why I was kind of tongue in cheek saying, I like it that I have an addictive personality. You know, there's a bias in psychology called an expectancy bias. And the expectancy bias. Another way I talk about this in my, in my TEDx talk is we talk about it, the Pygmalion effects. What you believe to exist in yourself and other people in the world will often manifest itself because it's what you pay attention to and what you, through your own predictive attention, what you create in your own life. What do I mean, if you think you're really, really bad at math, you're probably not taking advanced math classes, you're probably not getting a lot of help in math because you're bad at it. So you're going to stay bad at it because you didn't put the work in that would make you better at it. I think the same thing ends up happening for people who have, and quote, unquote, I'm doing that with my hands right now. Addictive personality. What they're saying to themselves is, I can't try anything pleasurable because if I do, I can get addicted to it. And then inevitably, because we live a life, they try something pleasurable and in their head, they get all anxious, scared, freaked out about, oh my gosh, am I going to get addicted to this thing? Mike My answer to many of those people would be something very, very different. And that is, why don't you pause and start thinking about when you believed, when you began to believe that about yourself and what was going on in your life. My notion is almost always you will find that they were very unhappy, very uncomfortable, very distraught, very stressed out, etc. During that period of life when the initial addiction or compulsive habits developed. Those are the issues we have to get at, right? Where did the anxiety come from? Where did the fear come from? What is it that drove that initial problem with the behavior or substance?
[08:59]
B
Do you see the tichotomy? Like some patients, I'm sure easier to treat than others. What makes some easy and some hard?
[09:05]
C
If I knew the hundred percent answer to this, then I'd probably be helping more patients right now. Look, in reality there are a few factors that I can talk to. Motivation is obviously a big one initially. Well, what drives motivation? There's internal motivation and that means, hey, I know I have a problem and I need to solve it. And then there's external motivation. We didn't talk about my past, but I got into this space because I had a really terrible meth addiction for about six or seven years when I was younger and ended up getting arrested a few times and then eventually spending a year in jail behind a set of felony. Yeah, I spent a whole year in LA county jail. Well, that provided me with a really solid external motivator to get better. Right. If I got in trouble again, I could spend decades in prison. So internal and external motivations are important. The next piece is Awareness, Knowing what to Change and the book Unhooked. I talk a ton, Richard, about tools to help people understand why is it they struggle. Many of us may ask, well, why? Why do they even need a book for that? Don't they know? And the short answer is no, a lot of people don't know because they've been hiding from that pain for so long. That's the whole point of the alcohol or the drugs. So awareness is important. And then last but not least, at least for the context of this conversation, is open mindedness, curiosity, humility, the ability to sit there when things get uncomfortable. And instead of run away, which is the traditional thing, most of us with addiction issues do we run away to our coping strategies instead of running away having curiosity. What's happening for me right now? Why is it happening? When have I felt this before? How can I potentially change it? Right. Having a lot of curiosity about things that feel pretty terrible internally is another very big predictor of success.
[10:42]
B
So what can you tell when you're talking to somebody early on, they're going to have an easy time of it or a hard time of it. Like do you have different strategies for people that are in certain motivation levels?
[10:52]
C
I wouldn't say I can tell early on, but what I can tell you, I, I can tell once we Start getting into the work that requires actual work, actual change. That. That's really where the rubber meets the road merchant. You know, people have to do work. There's no magic pill. People always want a magic pill, but it doesn't exist. And so what they do need instead is the willingness to go down to the mat and make some changes. Oftentimes those changes are initially really small. But, you know, I. This sentence, this quote from the second book from Unhooked, where I say, anybody can beat their addiction to anything. You just have to be willing to become somebody who's not addicted. And people often look at me sideways when they hear that and they go, well, what the hell does that mean? If I could become somebody else, then I would have already done it. I'm a firm believer in the fact that we are the sum totals of the habits and the rituals and the behaviors that we engage in every day. So what I actually mean by becoming somebody who's not addicted is, I mean, you have to change most of your daily habit. That includes the people you spend time with, the music, potentially, you listen, listen to the shows you watch, the books you read, including the friends and many of the activities that you have. They're normally a pretty substantial amount of change that is required. And that's when I can tell the difference. If somebody's willing to do the change, there's a much better chance that they will recover.
[12:09]
B
How fast do they have to make change? Like, well, some people wait a while and seem to do nothing and then all of a sudden say, okay, we can't do it, or right away, you know, they'll either make change or they won't.
[12:19]
C
A lot of people will say they're going to create change and they do nothing. It is just for the benefit of the people listening. It's January 9th. You know, it's a well known habit for many of us to set New Year's resolutions. And I think it's something like 60% of people abandon their New Year resolution by the end of January. I think it's something like 30 to 40% already do it by the end of the first week of the year. People have good intention, but people underappreciate the level of dedication you need to implement even small changes. And so my recommendation, for instance, for people is don't try to change 15 things at once. Pick one or two habits you want to instill and put all the effort you have into those. And when I say effort, I don't just mean physical effort, the mental dedication, Richard, that you need to have to wake up in the morning. Let's say it's going to the gym three times a week or four times a week. Is your. Is your habit that you're trying to change because you feel like you've been lazy and you want to go to the gym and lose some weight or become healthier? I need everybody to understand. I think we all understand this implicitly, but it's like you need to accept this next truth wholeheartedly and walk into every day that you. You told yourself you're going to go to the gym with the understanding that you don't need to like it, you just need to do it. Because initial behavioral change is really, really painful. Not because the habits or the new behavior isn't good for you and it causes pain, but because shifting. You know, one of the. One of the metaphors of visuals that I've listened to this is imagine you walk through the jungle a thousand times, and you've used the same path, right? You've macheted away ton of vegetation and, you know, and branches and things that got in your way. So there's a clear path to walk through that jungle. Behavior change is like saying to yourself, I'm going to grab the machete again, and I'm going to go make another path. Well, that's going to require work, and it's going to require work for a little bit longer than you wanted it to, and it's going to be a little more tiring than you wanted it to, and it's going to take a little bit longer than you wanted it to. But when it's done, you have another path. And that's. That's what people need to get ready for, is, okay, you woke up today and you don't feel like doing the thing that you committed to doing. That's fine. You don't have to feel like it. Just go do it. That's a huge part of behavior change, and that's when I can tell whether somebody's going to change or not.
[14:22]
B
Makes sense. Is there a time after which it's very likely a habit will or. And his issue will be locked in. It'll be a lot harder to get rid of it.
[14:29]
C
That's a really, really great question. I don't think there's an age limit. It's not like you age out of the ability to do it. But I do want to be fair and honest that the longer this has been going on, what ends up typically happening for people, Richard, is they lose more and more in life and their Life gets smaller and smaller, and so it is harder. It's like, it's like the lift, the amount of work that I was talking about that you have to do that becomes bigger and bigger the longer you wait. And so it does get harder to commit yourself. It's like you've been digging yourself a hole, right? So if you've only been digging yourself a hole in the ground for five years, then there's only five years worth of digging to pull yourself out of. If it's been 25 or 30 years, then you have that much more work to do. This is just another thing I say to people all the time. Again, the work lasts longer and it's harder than you want it to be. That's always true. And yet it's always true that in the end it's worth it.
[15:20]
B
I mean, yeah. How could you say to somebody, well, you've been smoking crack for 10 years, so it's going to take 10 years to get you off? I mean, I would think people, they've been conditioned to expect much faster results than any reasonable person or system could provide. I think most people would balk at you telling them it's going to take multi years to fix this or that because you've been doing it for so long.
[15:41]
C
Yeah, I mean, sure, yeah, yeah, people do balk at that. And you know, it wouldn't take 10 years. But for somebody who's been smoking crack for 10 years, if they make the changes that they need to make day, it'll take at least a year, maybe two. Right. And, and the reason is after 10 years, a lot has changed in your life, right? Your life after 10 years of smoking. Imagine let's say you were using smoking crack, right? But let's say if you've been smoking crack for 10 years, a lot has changed in your life, especially if you're coming to see somebody like me. And so we're gonna have to unwind those changes. And on top of that, we're gonna have to deal with whatever the heck caused you to want to smoke crack in the first place. So just a lot of work to do. And I agree with you, people look for easy solutions. But that's why people get trapped, is because they try something for three, doesn't deliver everything they want. And they say, well, I'm, I'm hopeless, or there's no chance for me to get better and they quit. I'll make a different parallel for us, Richard. So that people don't think this is at all unique to addictions because it's not the same is true for fitness. You know, how many people want to be athletes but then they realize the amount of training and work you have to do to be an athlete and they quit or success at work. How many people dream of having a million dollar a year job? And then when they look at the fields that require that and they look at the amount of work, work that is required to do that, and they look at how long it takes to get there, they say, yeah, well maybe I don't need it that badly. And they quit. So this is common to human behavior. It's not unique to addictions at all.
[17:01]
B
What does the treatment look like for born addiction versus drugs versus I don't know what another common one is. Maybe work, workaholism or something or. Yeah, how are the.
[17:10]
C
The. Yeah, I work with a lot of really successful people where workaholism, you know, essentially escaping into work to avoid other health, health and problem life problems is a thing. I deal with a lot of porn, a lot of gambling. I deal with a lot of people who have substance use issues. So there are some aspects of the treatment that are the same in that, in the context of what we're talking about here, that means digging into the why. Why did doing this make sense for you? Because it always made sense, Richard. When it started, it always made sense. There was a reason why drinking, porn, gambling, or whatever other substance or behavior made since the beginning. We have to understand that. Why? Because that's something we're going to have to solve at some point. Point where they differ is in the fact that once you've done something for 10, 15 years in a pretty religious manner, the consequences, the physical, emotional, social changes in your life are different. So what do I mean by that? Right. If you've been drinking every day and you've been drinking heavily for, for 15 years every day, your body, you know, from liver function to cardiovascular functioning to your body's ability to manage anxiety is different than somebody who's been dealing with a porn addiction. You know, for porn, getting at blocking actual devices ends up being important for alcohol. A lot of people need medical supervision. I actually just wrote an article about this. People expect to be able to quit drinking, you know, cold turkey when they feel like it. And it can actually be dangerous for people to do that. So the specific habits, they create differing mechanisms and tools that you may need to kick that specific habit. But getting at the underlying reason is the same work for everyone.
[18:42]
B
That makes sense. To what order. What do you feel the innovation is in your approach I'm sure you learned from a lot of other therapists and then you had to make it your own. So what are the tips or tweaks that you've done that you feel make it a lot more successful?
[18:55]
C
Yeah, I'll speak really, really broadly. I was trained at UCLA and so cognitive behavioral therapy was really, really big at ucla. A ton of the focus was also on medication and the neuroscience component. When I came out of ucla, I believed wholeheartedly in the neuroscience piece to it. What I found now is medication can be an adjunct tool. It can, it can help. I've never seen it be fix an addiction. Now it may be able to fix one addiction, but then a lot of people then convert to something else in order to deal with the coping. So the cognitive behavioral therapy is one of the therapeutic tools. What's been added over the years for me in really substantial way is mindfulness and meditation work. Some of that also happened at ucla, but much of that is from other arenas. A lot of trauma informed work. So the concept that, you know, these habits, when they got ingrained, the traumas, the, the experiences that a lot of people had at a younger age, some of that pain, some of that learning resides in phys, physical functioning, it resides in emotional discomfort. That translates physically. We all have been probably anxious enough at some point where our, you know, our stomach felt like it was a knot. Do you know what I mean, Richard? Yeah, so that's, that's like a physical manifestation of an emotional issue having to resolve those physical triggers because they also become reminders of the emotional pain that we then react to. So that's another big piece. And, and I would say the fourth piece for me is psychedelic work. So I was really resistant to getting involved in that when I was earlier in my career because of my own past, my own past with drugs and necessarily trust myself. I didn't want to be seen as the guy who went back to drugs. But there's a ton of literature now on ketamine, mdma, psilocybin. Those are the three that I do work with and I've worked on them with everybody from people who just got out of prison to top level CEOs and incredibly successful artists and athletes and people who really, really needed support. And I wouldn't say the psychedelics were a magic bullet, but they certainly helped speed things up in terms of being able to get to aspects of the care that would have been really hard to do with your cb.
[20:51]
B
What's up? I don't know like you do you have to get family member or spouse or partner or friends involved. Or can this work if you're just talking to the person that has the addiction or the problem, does it require like a, again, a circle of friends approach?
[21:04]
C
Think that later in the work, having, having the support is certainly incredibly important. You can start by yourself, but you're going to go live life in a social setting. I mean, we're social animals and so it's really important to get the social component of the support, the perspective. Right. One of the biggest things getting family involved is we don't all see every situation similarly. Right. Sometimes we need to hear and understand from others how they view the behavior, how they view the past, how they view specific past events. So yes, family and, or loved ones getting involved early is important. And then for most people who do this kind of work for themselves, it's really important at some point in the process to have others around you that you can talk to about the struggles. Family is not always the right fit for that. Right. I'm married, I've got three kids. Kids coming to my wife all the time with my internal discomfort makes her my therapist, not my wife. And that's probably not a, not the best tool long term, right. To turn your, your significant other, your mom or your dad or your sister into your therapist.
[22:05]
B
Are family members and other people, their circle, willing to participate? Or does the person affected feel too ashamed to include those people? Or like, how important is it to either do it or not do it in order for someone to heal?
[22:17]
C
You know, it really varies, man. I mean, I've worked, worked with couples and families where family members literally say, essentially, look, this is their issue, let them deal with it. It's not, you know, I'm not the problem. So I have dealt with that. I've also dealt with families who want to get involved. But then as you pointed out, the client doesn't want them to get involved either because they're the family members or the people close to him or her feel like part of the problem or because of that shame piece as you mentioned, which is incredibly, incredibly powerful in addiction. And I've also seen oftentimes the opposite where family members become aware of the problem long before the client does. So the family members are actually more interest, interested in doing work than the client themselves. I've seen all three of those scenarios play out. I'm a big believer. We actually on my website for Ignited, we have a family SOS program for family members who want to understand how to deal with this better. I'll tell you that unfortunately, no more than 20, maybe 30% of family members want to actively get involved. The involvement is intense. It's serious. You would think more would want to do it. But a lot of people look at it like, especially because we think of addiction as a disease. They say, well, you know, my husband has a disease. Why am I going to have to do any work? It's their work that, you know, they should go get the medicine. I think that does make the process a lot harder and less likely to be successful.
[23:30]
B
Well, maybe because a part of everybody is like, man, I wish I could, you know, get the benefits of getting high without getting high through someone else. Like, you know, my. My brother could do it. You know, I think he. He does it. He gets the quote, unquote benefits of being high. He has to deal with all the negative stuff. I, as a brother just had to deal with the negative stuff only is kind of unfair. And maybe it's weird to say, but that's just what came to mind, you know?
[23:51]
C
Can you go into that a little bit more? What do you mean?
[23:53]
B
Let's say. I don't know, let's say, like, your brother is, I don't know, whatever. Smokes weed and gets high all the time, and it affects you negatively. Like, you asked him to go do something, he doesn't do it. He's always forgetting stuff. He's always, you know, so he's getting the benefits of feeling good and feeling high, and he deals with the consequences of being bump and getting yelled at. But me, as his brother, I only get the negative. So if you ask me to step in and help, it's like, maybe a part of me is like, man, why do I have to do that? Like, I. I'm already suffering because of his. Yes. And now I got to step in and do more. But I'm not the one causing this problem. And he's getting the. The good stuff out of it and the bad. Like, that's not fair, you know?
[24:29]
C
Yes. I love that. Thank you. I'm happy we went a little bit more deeply into it. Here's the interesting thing, right? It's funny. I talk about this with leaders around work addiction too, right? I mean, think about it this way, right? A CEO who escapes into work and doesn't really talk to their family or their spouse because there's always more work to do. So whenever there's a tense conversation, whenever something get comfortable at home, they run to work. Work is always there. It seems like we can make the same kind of argument, right? It's like, well, why am I going to go pay all this attention for both sides? I mean, the wife at home, I'm just, I'm being very stereotypical here. So excuse that, but, you know, maybe the wife at home is saying, no, I don't want to talk to him. I haven't talked to him in 15 years while he's been doing this. Why am I going to start talking to him now, have. Have paperwork on it, solve the problem, and then, you know, potentially this. I made him a male CEO. Again, apologies to everybody for making being so stereotypical, but, you know, the guy might be sitting there going, well, I have work to go. I'm supporting. I don't want to go do all this emotional work. That's. That's not what I want to do. I want to just keep doing what I'm doing, right? And that's true. But that's true for every argument everybody ever has on the face of the planet. When we can stand on opposite sides of this bridge and say, no, no, you have to come to me, and when you come to me, then we'll do the work. We can do that. It just rarely resolves any problem. You can talk about that on the politics front. You can talk about it, you know, in a relationship. You could talk about it at work, right? If you have a, if you're somebody's boss, you can say, hey, no, forget that. I want my staff to just get better and I don't need to provide them the training. But that's just not the way the reality works. The way the reality works is if, let's say, I'm going to use the example you gave, right? If my brother is causing me pain because of their use, I'm already experiencing pain. It might require some work by me to reduce that pain. And that's just part of the reality of life, right? It's going to. Anything worthwhile normally takes effort, including making a situation better that you didn't cause.
[26:16]
B
That seems to be a tough pill to swallow. You know, maybe that's for a reason. That family is only that. You said 20 to 30% that are willing to do it 100%.
[26:24]
C
And also they've been damage. And so there was entry.
[26:26]
B
Yeah, yeah, definitely. What about group? Is it helpful or hurtful to, you know, if you have, I don't know, five people that are, you know, smoking weed all the time to put them into a group, like do some, some solo sessions and some group ones, or is it better to just leave them individual? Like, what, what have you Found I
[26:42]
C
actually like group a lot. The reason I like groups. So, you know, I've done, I've done both. I've done many, many sessions of both. But and just for everybody listening right now, I still run the same group that I've been running for eight years on Tuesday at 1pm Pacific on our program. And I do it much. I love groups. Richard. You know, when you do a one on one session with a client, I bring my experience and my knowledge from other clients and the clients bring their story. But that's, that's all you got, right? That's what you've got to work with in that session. Well, the thing that happens is sometimes people, we all have biases. We all. None of us see the world objectively, right? So I'm sitting with a client and they're telling me their version of the story. And that's what I can work off of based on the experience I have in the world. The nice thing that happens in group, I can't tell you the number of times I've had a client decide that they wanted to talk about something. So one person out of a group of, let's say eight people in a room starts a conversation. Conversation. And they talk about something uncomfortable, a conflict they've had, something at work, a relapse they had, whatever it may be, they get through their story. We work on their part. And then either in the moment or later, somebody else from that same group says to me, oh my gosh, I came to that group and I was angry or I was resentful, or I was anxious and I didn't really know why. And then I listened to John Doe's story and all of a sudden it clicked for me. And the way you guys talked about the topic really helped me understand myself better. You get this normalization, number one. Seeing other people talking about things you struggle with makes a lot easier to swallow. And the second piece is you just get this mirror that we are really hard at providing for us. We're really, really weak at providing for ourselves. It's really hard to look at your own behavior objectively, but when you see somebody else talk about it, all of a sudden you can see yourself more clearly. And that's why I love groups.
[28:19]
B
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's. That's definitely true.
[28:21]
C
Yeah, I love it. It's one of my favorite ways to work with people.
[28:24]
B
Are there particular addictions that are just really difficult to help people overcome versus others?
[28:29]
C
There are some that are really painful. So I. Alcohol and benzodiazepines. People don't think about them, but if you've had that for a while, if you use those heavily for a while, it's really, really hard to come off them. And actually medically dangerous. So that's one. Gambling addictions, as anybody who just stops and think about them for a second are, can be incredibly costly. Right. They can collapse families. I mean, so they're terrible for that reason. You know, porn addictions aren't damaging in the way that a lot of these other addictions damage people. But I've seen, seen them including, and I've shared about this publicly, so I'm not saying anything I haven't said before, but including in my own relationship with my wife. This is many, many years ago now, but they can almost break up marriages. So that's another big one. Right? They all have, they all have different types of impact. And then one obvious one is anytime you're using illegal substances in today's world, you have to worry about cross contamination and the potential of overdose just by chance. So they're all dangerous in different ways, but they can definitely, definitely cause issues. One thing I will say just for the benefit of anybody listening to this who doesn't know it, a lot of people use kava or kratom publicly. They're totally legal and you can buy them in drinks or pills and all these other in your powders, all these different versions. A lot of people don't realize how habit forming those can be. And if you use those at high levels over time and your tolerance develops, they can be really hard to get off of as well.
[29:44]
B
Oh, it could be medically dangerous too, or just dangerous to use them as well.
[29:47]
C
I mean, opiates are normally not medically dangerous to get off of. Sometimes it can be, but mostly they're just, I mean, it's severe pain, severe pain to, to recover from an opiate. I always tell people, just remember any coping strategy you use, whatever gave you to use it, you're going to pay back in taxes when you stop. So if you get addicted to anxiety relief medication like benzodiazepines, when you get off of them, you're going to have a ton of anxiety for very, very long. Alcohol calms you down. You're going to be really anxious when you stop. You know, opiates, they reduce physical and emotional pain. Well, guess what, you're going to be in a lot of pain when you stop taking them. It's always the payback is always what? The same as the benefit you got, plus interest?
[30:25]
B
Yeah, that's very interesting. I like that model. I mean, I don't like it, but I mean, it's formative.
[30:30]
C
Yeah. Nobody likes it, but it makes sense.
[30:31]
B
So what, what are some. The paths someone could take when they finally come to the point they're like, man, you know, my, my problem is now really affecting me and the people around me. I gotta do something about it. Is the first thing to talk to somebody is the first thing to read a book? Like, how do they start approaching it and begin getting help?
[30:51]
C
Beautiful question. I mean, the number one thing to do is to start where you're willing to start. So reading a book is great. I've written a couple of them and there are a lot of other really great books on addiction. You don't even have to focus on addiction. So habit change. Books can help you if you do the like. If you read Unhooked, for instance, and you start identifying some of the underlying issues, like you realize some trauma you had when you were younger, or attachment problems from childhood, or an activating event that you need to work on, then you go find books, podcasts and videos and lessons and workshops about that topic, right? How to fix your relationship, how to improve your mood, how to get, you know, address old trauma. So books, podcasts, et cetera are great. The thing is, they're only really great for people, like I said before, Richard, who are going to read a book and then go implement. Right? You then have to go do work. A book will never fix the way you, you live your life. It can help change the perspective, which can make it easier to change your behavior. But the change in the behavior is what we really want in the end. So some people need to go to the next level, which is seeing a therapist doing an online program like our program at Ignited, or, you know, something else that allows you to get hand holding from a professional, you know, to, to be able to get some of that help. And then some people find that they need an even higher level. Like just being out in community makes it hard for them to engage. They may need an intensive output patient in a sober living environment, or they may even need to go to residential for a month or two in order to protect themselves from being triggered and relapsing while they're building the capacity for behavior change itself.
[32:17]
B
Okay, so where, where, where can you help people through your books? I mean, it sound, they sound excellent. You have a lot of knowledge, a lot of experience. What about, you know, the group itself? Like, can you help anyone in the US Are there only certain states?
[32:30]
C
Yeah, no. So we, no, we work internationally and you know, if you go to ignited.com that's igntd.com it' easy to sign up for our online programs. It's really affordable. We made it affordable on purpose and like I said, it's actually the only semi affordable way to work with me. I have two groups a week that I still run on that program and so if you want to work with me directly, that's the easiest and cheapest way to work with me. We're talking like, I think the cheapest is like 150amonth. It's really, really affordable. That's way number one. The books are obviously a great one as well. And then I do, I offer these really intensive sessions that I do with. That's what I do with executives and some of the other people that I work with. When somebody is really committed to creat, I have these 90 day programs that are incredibly intense and they're driven to, you know, create years worth of change in months. But like I said before, they require a lot of commitment and you really have to be willing to put the work in.
[33:21]
B
Well, very good. Od. Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me. It's been a good call and I appreciate. I encourage people to check out your books and to check into your groups. What's the website where they can go to check out other groups if they wish to.
[33:33]
C
So the groups are@ignated.com igntd.com and if you want to talk to me more directly or something about me, either on social media at Dr. Adjaffe or adjaffee.com okay, excellent.
[33:46]
B
Well, again, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. I appreciate it.
[33:49]
C
Thank you so much for having me, Richard. And just a reminder to anybody out there who is struggling, there's a path out of your struggle. I've been there myself. It doesn't have to be me. I don't. I mean, I'd always love to meet with people, but I don't care if it's me or not. Just go find tools and start implementing them. It's worth it on the other side. If you like this podcast, please click the link in the description to subscribe. Subscribe and review us on itunes.
[34:11]
A
Thank you for listening to the Good Question podcast. Please email support thegoodquestionpodcast.com if you have any referrals to great guests for us to interview. Visit thegoodquestionpodcast.com to hear more interviews. And please help us spread the word by rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcasts, iTunes, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you listen to this podcast.

Summary6 min read

Podcast Summary: "Beyond Addiction: Dr. Adi Jaffe On Mental Health, Behavior Change & Shame-Free Recovery"

Podcast: The Good Question Podcast
Host: Richard Jacobs
Guest: Dr. Adi Jaffe
Date: May 4, 2026

Main Theme

This episode explores modern addiction, the role of shame in recovery, changing patterns of substance use, and innovative approaches to behavior change with Dr. Adi Jaffe—a psychologist, former UCLA lecturer, bestselling author of The Abstinence Myth and Unhooked, and founder of the mental health platform IGNTD. The conversation emphasizes understanding the roots of addictive behaviors, the impact of technology, the necessity for individualized approaches, and the importance of curiosity and support in overcoming addiction.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Modern Landscape of Addiction (01:48)

Changing Patterns: There’s a global shift in substance use—less focus on alcohol/opiates, rising THC, amphetamines, and technology-based behaviors.
- Notable Quote:
  “More and more people are shifting their drinking patterns globally... but more and more people are smoking weed or consuming THC in other forms.” — Dr. Jaffe (01:48)
Technology's Role: Smartphones have facilitated new addictive behaviors: gaming, gambling, online sex/porn, live chats (OnlyFans, etc.), creating new challenges in relationships.

2. Addiction as Coping, Not a 'Special Population' (03:05)

Reframing Addiction:
“Addictions are coping strategy... We actually all do it in a way.” — Dr. Jaffe (03:05)
Roots of Addictive Habits:
Most compulsive behaviors begin as escapes from discomfort—bad relationships, anxiety, emotional pain, etc.
Universality: Everyone uses coping mechanisms; addiction is not reserved for an “othered” group.

3. Understanding the Origins and Diagnosis of Addiction (04:33)

Addiction as a Syndrome:
Dr. Jaffe distinguishes addiction from disease—affirms addiction represents a 'syndrome' (a set of symptoms) rather than a specific disorder with one root cause.
Varied Etiologies: Trauma, relationship issues, depression, impulsivity all contribute, requiring differentiated treatment.
Notable Quote:
“I call it a syndrome, not a disorder.... Treating somebody who has depression and anxiety using the same tools as someone with severe PTSD is very unlikely to lead to positive results.” — Dr. Jaffe (06:00)

4. The "Addictive Personality" Myth (06:38)

Debunking the Concept:
There's no clinical “addictive personality,” although people may have subjective beliefs about susceptibility.
Expectancy Bias:
What people believe about themselves often becomes self-fulfilling. Dr. Jaffe highlights the Pygmalion effect.
Notable Quote:
“There’s a bias in psychology called an expectancy bias... what you believe to exist in yourself and other people will often manifest itself.” — Dr. Jaffe (07:15)

5. What Makes Recovery Easier or Harder? (09:05)

Key Predictive Factors:
- Motivation: Internal (“I need to change”) vs. external (“I have to avoid further consequences”)
  - E.g., Dr. Jaffe’s own meth addiction and jail time as external motivator.
- Self-Awareness: Understanding underlying pain.
- Curiosity and Openness: Ability to engage with discomfort with curiosity, not avoidance.
Notable Quote:
“Having a lot of curiosity about things that feel terrible internally is another very big predictor of success.” — Dr. Jaffe (10:10)

6. Behavior Change: Process and Challenges (12:18)

No Quick Fix:
Real change requires sustained, often uncomfortable effort—no “magic pill.”
Incremental Change:
Focus on one or two habits at a time; accept that new routines are harder before they’re easier.
Metaphor:
“Behavior change is like walking through the jungle a thousand times... making another path will require work, and it’s going to take longer than you want it to.” — Dr. Jaffe (13:09)
Persistence Required:
People expect fast results but need realistic timelines.

7. Does Chronicity Matter? (14:29)

Impact of Duration:
The longer an addiction persists, the harder and longer recovery will take—but it’s always possible.
Notable Quote:
“The work lasts longer and it’s harder than you want it to be. That’s always true. And yet it’s always true that in the end it’s worth it.” — Dr. Jaffe (15:00)

8. Addictions Compared: Substance vs. Behavioral (17:09)

Underlying Similarities:
All addictions start because they "made sense" at some point, as coping.
Treatment Differences:
Physical consequences, withdrawal dangers, and practical interventions differ (e.g., medical supervision for alcohol, device blockers for porn).
Notable Quote:
“Getting at the underlying reason is the same work for everyone.” — Dr. Jaffe (18:31)

9. Innovations in Dr. Jaffe’s Approach (18:54)

Blending Modalities:
- Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT)
- Mindfulness and meditation
- Trauma-informed care
- Mind-body interventions
- Psychedelic-assisted therapy (ketamine, MDMA, psilocybin) for certain cases
Notable Quote:
“I wouldn’t say the psychedelics were a magic bullet, but they certainly helped speed things up in terms of being able to get to aspects of the care that would have been really hard to do with your CBT.” — Dr. Jaffe (20:32)

10. The Role of Relationships and Support (21:04)

Involving Family/Friends:
Support networks can be vital, though not always possible (due to shame, family reluctance, or history).
Challenges with Involvement:
Only about 20–30% of family members are willing to get actively involved.
Notable Moment:
Richard raises the emotional dilemma of helping someone whose addiction impacts you negatively—Dr. Jaffe responds with empathy and realism.
- “Anything worthwhile normally takes effort, including making a situation better that you didn’t cause.” — Dr. Jaffe (25:11)

11. The Value of Group Work (26:42)

Therapeutic Groups:
Group settings offer normalization, multiple perspectives, and “mirroring” that enhance personal insight.
Notable Quote:
“Seeing other people talking about things you struggle with makes it a lot easier to swallow.” — Dr. Jaffe (28:10)

12. Addiction Types: Which Are Hardest? (28:28)

Withdrawal Dangers:
Benzodiazepines and alcohol can be medically dangerous to quit.
Gambling:
Severe social/financial consequences.
Porn:
Typically less visibly destructive, but can devastate relationships.
Legal Highs:
Kava/kratom are habit-forming and challenging to quit; often misunderstood.
Notable Advice:
“Whatever gave you to use it, you’re going to pay back in taxes when you stop.” — Dr. Jaffe (30:14)

13. First Steps for Those Seeking Help (30:50)

Start Where You Are:
Read books, listen to podcasts, seek specialized resources.
Implementation is Key:
Books can inspire and educate, but behavioral changes require action.
Levels of Care:
Options include books, online programs (like IGNTD), therapy, group support, outpatient or residential care.

14. Accessing Dr. Jaffe’s Resources (32:29)

IGNTD offers affordable, international online programs and direct group work with Dr. Jaffe.
Books (The Abstinence Myth, Unhooked) offer self-guided insight.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“There’s a path out of your struggle. I’ve been there myself... Go find tools and start implementing them. It’s worth it on the other side.” — Dr. Jaffe (33:48)
“You don’t need to like it, you just need to do it.” — Dr. Jaffe on establishing new habits (12:58)
“The payback is always the same as the benefit you got, plus interest.” — Dr. Jaffe (30:19)
“If you think you’re really, really bad at math... you’ll likely stay bad at it. The same thing ends up happening for people with an ‘addictive personality’ belief.” — Dr. Jaffe (07:40)

Timestamps for Key Segments

Addiction Patterns and Technology: 01:48–03:05
Universal Nature of Coping/Addiction: 03:05–04:25
Addiction as Syndrome, Not Disease: 04:33–06:26
Addictive Personality & Expectancy Bias: 06:38–08:58
Motivation, Awareness, Curiosity: 09:05–10:52
Behavioral Change—No Quick Fix: 12:08–14:21
Chronicity & Recovery: 14:29–15:40
Different Addictions, Tailored Treatments: 17:09–18:54
Innovations: Mindfulness & Psychedelics: 18:54–21:04
Family & Social Support’s Role: 21:04–26:16
Therapeutic Groups: 26:42–28:21
Most Challenging Addictions: 28:28–29:47
First Steps to Help: 30:31–32:29
How to Access Help & IGNTD: 32:29–33:32

Conclusion

Dr. Adi Jaffe advocates for a compassionate, shame-free, and individualized approach to addiction and behavior change. Understanding the “why” behind compulsions, combining multiple therapeutic modalities, and fostering supportive environments are key. The journey may be long, but recovery is always possible with perseverance and curiosity.

Resources

Dr. Jaffe’s Books: The Abstinence Myth, Unhooked
Online Program: IGNTD
Contact Dr. Jaffe: Social media @DrAdiJaffe or adijaffe.com

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Transcript54 lines

[00:01]
A
You're listening to the Good Question podcast with Richard Jacobs. Our goal is to make each of our guests exclaim, hmm, that's a good question. I don't know the answer. Because when that happens, it means you, the listener, may be inspired to learn more beyond the interview and to ask great questions yourself that lead to new insights. In this podcast, we cover historical and current anthropology, comparative religion and history. Welcome. And let's get started.
[00:36]
B
Hello, this is Richard Jacobs with the Good Question podcast. My guest today is Dr. Adi Jaffe. He's the author of the Abstinence Myth and Unhooked. He's a bestselling author with his books published by Hachette, and he's nationally recognized expert on transformation and communication, especially in times of deep crisis. Though his work spans, you know, career type work, mental health, addiction, and relationship crises. He's a lecturer in the UCLA Psychology department for over a decade and, or mostly a decade, and the executive director and co founder of one of the most progressive mental health treatment facilities in the country. And so he started what's called igntd. So instead of me continuing on, probably butchering his biography, I'll let him finish it. But welcome as he.
[01:18]
C
Thank you so much for having me, Richard. Really, really great to be here.
[01:20]
B
Yeah, I think it'll be really important to speak to you because, you know, there's, I know throughout time there's always relationships that run into crises, but I just have the feeling that with, you know, the amount of anxiety today, depression and other mental issues, crises in relationships amongst people have have probably risen quite a bit. But what's up? You know, I guess, I guess let's start with that. In general, what does it look like to work with people over the years, like the past 10 years as it have, problems seem to have grown. Like what? What has changed?
[01:49]
C
That's a great question and one I don't get often. I mean, a few things have changed. First of all, more and more people are shifting their drinking patterns globally without having to be told to do so. That's certainly a shift that's happened in society. To offset that, however, more and more people are smoking weed or Dr. Or consuming THC in other forms. And so that has certainly occurred more. Those are kind of like secular changes around substance use. You know, we used to struggle a lot more with opiates. I'm seeing a drop in that, but now an increase in amphetamines, methamphetamine, cocaine, et cetera. But one of the biggest things that changes, you know, I started doing this 25 years ago is the impact of technology, if I'm honest. So technology. And that's, you know, primarily mobile devices for the people that I see. But use what they use them for. Right. So gaming, gambling and sex or porn. Porn or, you know, being able to interact with live chats, only fans, etc. Those are. I'm seeing more and more and more happening, and that's something that really wasn't even present before at all.
[02:52]
B
What is this doing to relationships? Is it creating a. Like a secret life away from the other person you're having a relationship with, Whether it's like parents or a spouse or, you know, girlfriend or friend or whatever? Like, what is it doing?
[03:05]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think. Look, I think that's what addictions do in general. So, you know, we've created this notion that people who have addiction issues or a special population. I want to dispel that very, very quickly here. Addictions are coping strategy. You can just remove that title that we've given them as a special version of just compulsive habits. They're habits that people have taken on often years ago, often actually decades ago. We were talking 10, 15, 20 years ago in order to protect themselves in some way. And you mentioned some of those ways. So, yes, if you're in a bad marriage and you don't have the tools necessary to deal with conflict constructively and in a way that moves your relationship forward. Drinking day, you get home from work and not really caring as much about the conflict is one way to deal with it. But so is diving into porn. So is gaming under your phone all evening so you don't have to talk to your spouse. Right. They're. They're kind of one in the same. They're an escape route from discomfort. And one of the things that I have to remind everybody is we actually all do it in a way it's not pathological or clinical. For the vast majority of us, we all find ways to escape into behaviors or substances that make life a little bit easier to tolerate. People who struggle with what we call addiction may just have a higher threshold of engaging in those activities. And the consequences that those compulsive behaviors take in their life are substantially more costly and extreme than for some others.
[04:25]
B
Any insight into how these things start? You know, what kind of feedback do you get from people when you ask them that? And, you know, how long it's been going on? That kind of thing?
[04:34]
C
Yeah. You know, there's a thing I talk about in Unhook. I think we make the mistake Oftentimes of thinking that everybody who struggles with an addiction has the same problem. And I don't think that's true at all. So in the medical field and the clinical field, there's a distinction between having a disorder or a disease and that normally has the same ideology or the same route of development. So think to yourself, you know, a flu. You know, I'm trying to think like a specific medical condition that is caused, you know, any bacterial infections that are caused by a specific agent. Right. A virus, a bacteria, something along those lines. Those are always called, like, you can't have the flu without having the flu virus. Does that make sense? It's. That's how we determine that you have that problem. There are other things, like cancers that are similar conditions in the way that they develop. Irritable bowel syndrome, depression. There's a set of symptoms that show up together. But we make the mistakes sometimes. Oftentimes I would say that because the symptoms are similar, the underlying problem is the same. Addiction is exactly that kind of an issue. I call it a syndrome, not a disorder. And the reason is syndrome is just a set of symptoms that show up together. So a compulsive habit that you can't control that is leading to negative consequences. We call that an addiction. The thing that's weird for me about it, Richard, is we call it an addiction to the thing. Right. So, like, you have a cocaine addiction suggests that your problem is cocaine. You have an alcohol addiction suggests your problem is alcohol. I don't think that's true. There's trauma, there's rel. There are relationship issues. There's, you know, deep, like, physical and emotional pain, you know, discontent, boredom, attention issues, and impulsivity. Those are all different factors or different variables that contribute to how likely it is you'll have an addiction issue. A compulsive habit, but they're not the same. Right. Treating somebody who has depression and anxiety in a similar manner, using the same tools as somebody who has severe PTSD is very unlikely to lead to positive results because you're not dealing with the same issue.
[06:26]
B
What about people that say, I don't have an addictive personality? I'm lucky. I don't get sucked into that kind of stuff versus people that are like, oh, man, I have an addictive personality. I can't even begin down that path because I know I'll get sucked in.
[06:38]
C
Yeah. First of all, there's no. I do love that phrasing. We don't have really an indicator of what the heck an addictive personality is. Is now what some people mean by that is if I start doing something that feels really good, it's hard for me to stop myself. Right. That's essentially what they're saying. Well, you know, the funny thing is to see somebody try to navigate today's world if they consider themselves having that kind of a personality. I mean, your phone is addictive. TV shows have addictive, you know, dopamine releasing aspects to them, but so is sex, so is food. I mean, if you have that type of personality, you either have to be a hermit based on your own definition, because you can't expose yourself to anything that is rewarding, anything that's pleasure inducing, or you just have to live a very miserable life, constantly fluctuating between these different coping strategies. I think there's an issue with the phrasing, and that's why I was kind of tongue in cheek saying, I like it that I have an addictive personality. You know, there's a bias in psychology called an expectancy bias. And the expectancy bias. Another way I talk about this in my, in my TEDx talk is we talk about it, the Pygmalion effects. What you believe to exist in yourself and other people in the world will often manifest itself because it's what you pay attention to and what you, through your own predictive attention, what you create in your own life. What do I mean, if you think you're really, really bad at math, you're probably not taking advanced math classes, you're probably not getting a lot of help in math because you're bad at it. So you're going to stay bad at it because you didn't put the work in that would make you better at it. I think the same thing ends up happening for people who have, and quote, unquote, I'm doing that with my hands right now. Addictive personality. What they're saying to themselves is, I can't try anything pleasurable because if I do, I can get addicted to it. And then inevitably, because we live a life, they try something pleasurable and in their head, they get all anxious, scared, freaked out about, oh my gosh, am I going to get addicted to this thing? Mike My answer to many of those people would be something very, very different. And that is, why don't you pause and start thinking about when you believed, when you began to believe that about yourself and what was going on in your life. My notion is almost always you will find that they were very unhappy, very uncomfortable, very distraught, very stressed out, etc. During that period of life when the initial addiction or compulsive habits developed. Those are the issues we have to get at, right? Where did the anxiety come from? Where did the fear come from? What is it that drove that initial problem with the behavior or substance?
[08:59]
B
Do you see the tichotomy? Like some patients, I'm sure easier to treat than others. What makes some easy and some hard?
[09:05]
C
If I knew the hundred percent answer to this, then I'd probably be helping more patients right now. Look, in reality there are a few factors that I can talk to. Motivation is obviously a big one initially. Well, what drives motivation? There's internal motivation and that means, hey, I know I have a problem and I need to solve it. And then there's external motivation. We didn't talk about my past, but I got into this space because I had a really terrible meth addiction for about six or seven years when I was younger and ended up getting arrested a few times and then eventually spending a year in jail behind a set of felony. Yeah, I spent a whole year in LA county jail. Well, that provided me with a really solid external motivator to get better. Right. If I got in trouble again, I could spend decades in prison. So internal and external motivations are important. The next piece is Awareness, Knowing what to Change and the book Unhooked. I talk a ton, Richard, about tools to help people understand why is it they struggle. Many of us may ask, well, why? Why do they even need a book for that? Don't they know? And the short answer is no, a lot of people don't know because they've been hiding from that pain for so long. That's the whole point of the alcohol or the drugs. So awareness is important. And then last but not least, at least for the context of this conversation, is open mindedness, curiosity, humility, the ability to sit there when things get uncomfortable. And instead of run away, which is the traditional thing, most of us with addiction issues do we run away to our coping strategies instead of running away having curiosity. What's happening for me right now? Why is it happening? When have I felt this before? How can I potentially change it? Right. Having a lot of curiosity about things that feel pretty terrible internally is another very big predictor of success.
[10:42]
B
So what can you tell when you're talking to somebody early on, they're going to have an easy time of it or a hard time of it. Like do you have different strategies for people that are in certain motivation levels?
[10:52]
C
I wouldn't say I can tell early on, but what I can tell you, I, I can tell once we Start getting into the work that requires actual work, actual change. That. That's really where the rubber meets the road merchant. You know, people have to do work. There's no magic pill. People always want a magic pill, but it doesn't exist. And so what they do need instead is the willingness to go down to the mat and make some changes. Oftentimes those changes are initially really small. But, you know, I. This sentence, this quote from the second book from Unhooked, where I say, anybody can beat their addiction to anything. You just have to be willing to become somebody who's not addicted. And people often look at me sideways when they hear that and they go, well, what the hell does that mean? If I could become somebody else, then I would have already done it. I'm a firm believer in the fact that we are the sum totals of the habits and the rituals and the behaviors that we engage in every day. So what I actually mean by becoming somebody who's not addicted is, I mean, you have to change most of your daily habit. That includes the people you spend time with, the music, potentially, you listen, listen to the shows you watch, the books you read, including the friends and many of the activities that you have. They're normally a pretty substantial amount of change that is required. And that's when I can tell the difference. If somebody's willing to do the change, there's a much better chance that they will recover.
[12:09]
B
How fast do they have to make change? Like, well, some people wait a while and seem to do nothing and then all of a sudden say, okay, we can't do it, or right away, you know, they'll either make change or they won't.
[12:19]
C
A lot of people will say they're going to create change and they do nothing. It is just for the benefit of the people listening. It's January 9th. You know, it's a well known habit for many of us to set New Year's resolutions. And I think it's something like 60% of people abandon their New Year resolution by the end of January. I think it's something like 30 to 40% already do it by the end of the first week of the year. People have good intention, but people underappreciate the level of dedication you need to implement even small changes. And so my recommendation, for instance, for people is don't try to change 15 things at once. Pick one or two habits you want to instill and put all the effort you have into those. And when I say effort, I don't just mean physical effort, the mental dedication, Richard, that you need to have to wake up in the morning. Let's say it's going to the gym three times a week or four times a week. Is your. Is your habit that you're trying to change because you feel like you've been lazy and you want to go to the gym and lose some weight or become healthier? I need everybody to understand. I think we all understand this implicitly, but it's like you need to accept this next truth wholeheartedly and walk into every day that you. You told yourself you're going to go to the gym with the understanding that you don't need to like it, you just need to do it. Because initial behavioral change is really, really painful. Not because the habits or the new behavior isn't good for you and it causes pain, but because shifting. You know, one of the. One of the metaphors of visuals that I've listened to this is imagine you walk through the jungle a thousand times, and you've used the same path, right? You've macheted away ton of vegetation and, you know, and branches and things that got in your way. So there's a clear path to walk through that jungle. Behavior change is like saying to yourself, I'm going to grab the machete again, and I'm going to go make another path. Well, that's going to require work, and it's going to require work for a little bit longer than you wanted it to, and it's going to be a little more tiring than you wanted it to, and it's going to take a little bit longer than you wanted it to. But when it's done, you have another path. And that's. That's what people need to get ready for, is, okay, you woke up today and you don't feel like doing the thing that you committed to doing. That's fine. You don't have to feel like it. Just go do it. That's a huge part of behavior change, and that's when I can tell whether somebody's going to change or not.
[14:22]
B
Makes sense. Is there a time after which it's very likely a habit will or. And his issue will be locked in. It'll be a lot harder to get rid of it.
[14:29]
C
That's a really, really great question. I don't think there's an age limit. It's not like you age out of the ability to do it. But I do want to be fair and honest that the longer this has been going on, what ends up typically happening for people, Richard, is they lose more and more in life and their Life gets smaller and smaller, and so it is harder. It's like, it's like the lift, the amount of work that I was talking about that you have to do that becomes bigger and bigger the longer you wait. And so it does get harder to commit yourself. It's like you've been digging yourself a hole, right? So if you've only been digging yourself a hole in the ground for five years, then there's only five years worth of digging to pull yourself out of. If it's been 25 or 30 years, then you have that much more work to do. This is just another thing I say to people all the time. Again, the work lasts longer and it's harder than you want it to be. That's always true. And yet it's always true that in the end it's worth it.
[15:20]
B
I mean, yeah. How could you say to somebody, well, you've been smoking crack for 10 years, so it's going to take 10 years to get you off? I mean, I would think people, they've been conditioned to expect much faster results than any reasonable person or system could provide. I think most people would balk at you telling them it's going to take multi years to fix this or that because you've been doing it for so long.
[15:41]
C
Yeah, I mean, sure, yeah, yeah, people do balk at that. And you know, it wouldn't take 10 years. But for somebody who's been smoking crack for 10 years, if they make the changes that they need to make day, it'll take at least a year, maybe two. Right. And, and the reason is after 10 years, a lot has changed in your life, right? Your life after 10 years of smoking. Imagine let's say you were using smoking crack, right? But let's say if you've been smoking crack for 10 years, a lot has changed in your life, especially if you're coming to see somebody like me. And so we're gonna have to unwind those changes. And on top of that, we're gonna have to deal with whatever the heck caused you to want to smoke crack in the first place. So just a lot of work to do. And I agree with you, people look for easy solutions. But that's why people get trapped, is because they try something for three, doesn't deliver everything they want. And they say, well, I'm, I'm hopeless, or there's no chance for me to get better and they quit. I'll make a different parallel for us, Richard. So that people don't think this is at all unique to addictions because it's not the same is true for fitness. You know, how many people want to be athletes but then they realize the amount of training and work you have to do to be an athlete and they quit or success at work. How many people dream of having a million dollar a year job? And then when they look at the fields that require that and they look at the amount of work, work that is required to do that, and they look at how long it takes to get there, they say, yeah, well maybe I don't need it that badly. And they quit. So this is common to human behavior. It's not unique to addictions at all.
[17:01]
B
What does the treatment look like for born addiction versus drugs versus I don't know what another common one is. Maybe work, workaholism or something or. Yeah, how are the.
[17:10]
C
The. Yeah, I work with a lot of really successful people where workaholism, you know, essentially escaping into work to avoid other health, health and problem life problems is a thing. I deal with a lot of porn, a lot of gambling. I deal with a lot of people who have substance use issues. So there are some aspects of the treatment that are the same in that, in the context of what we're talking about here, that means digging into the why. Why did doing this make sense for you? Because it always made sense, Richard. When it started, it always made sense. There was a reason why drinking, porn, gambling, or whatever other substance or behavior made since the beginning. We have to understand that. Why? Because that's something we're going to have to solve at some point. Point where they differ is in the fact that once you've done something for 10, 15 years in a pretty religious manner, the consequences, the physical, emotional, social changes in your life are different. So what do I mean by that? Right. If you've been drinking every day and you've been drinking heavily for, for 15 years every day, your body, you know, from liver function to cardiovascular functioning to your body's ability to manage anxiety is different than somebody who's been dealing with a porn addiction. You know, for porn, getting at blocking actual devices ends up being important for alcohol. A lot of people need medical supervision. I actually just wrote an article about this. People expect to be able to quit drinking, you know, cold turkey when they feel like it. And it can actually be dangerous for people to do that. So the specific habits, they create differing mechanisms and tools that you may need to kick that specific habit. But getting at the underlying reason is the same work for everyone.
[18:42]
B
That makes sense. To what order. What do you feel the innovation is in your approach I'm sure you learned from a lot of other therapists and then you had to make it your own. So what are the tips or tweaks that you've done that you feel make it a lot more successful?
[18:55]
C
Yeah, I'll speak really, really broadly. I was trained at UCLA and so cognitive behavioral therapy was really, really big at ucla. A ton of the focus was also on medication and the neuroscience component. When I came out of ucla, I believed wholeheartedly in the neuroscience piece to it. What I found now is medication can be an adjunct tool. It can, it can help. I've never seen it be fix an addiction. Now it may be able to fix one addiction, but then a lot of people then convert to something else in order to deal with the coping. So the cognitive behavioral therapy is one of the therapeutic tools. What's been added over the years for me in really substantial way is mindfulness and meditation work. Some of that also happened at ucla, but much of that is from other arenas. A lot of trauma informed work. So the concept that, you know, these habits, when they got ingrained, the traumas, the, the experiences that a lot of people had at a younger age, some of that pain, some of that learning resides in phys, physical functioning, it resides in emotional discomfort. That translates physically. We all have been probably anxious enough at some point where our, you know, our stomach felt like it was a knot. Do you know what I mean, Richard? Yeah, so that's, that's like a physical manifestation of an emotional issue having to resolve those physical triggers because they also become reminders of the emotional pain that we then react to. So that's another big piece. And, and I would say the fourth piece for me is psychedelic work. So I was really resistant to getting involved in that when I was earlier in my career because of my own past, my own past with drugs and necessarily trust myself. I didn't want to be seen as the guy who went back to drugs. But there's a ton of literature now on ketamine, mdma, psilocybin. Those are the three that I do work with and I've worked on them with everybody from people who just got out of prison to top level CEOs and incredibly successful artists and athletes and people who really, really needed support. And I wouldn't say the psychedelics were a magic bullet, but they certainly helped speed things up in terms of being able to get to aspects of the care that would have been really hard to do with your cb.
[20:51]
B
What's up? I don't know like you do you have to get family member or spouse or partner or friends involved. Or can this work if you're just talking to the person that has the addiction or the problem, does it require like a, again, a circle of friends approach?
[21:04]
C
Think that later in the work, having, having the support is certainly incredibly important. You can start by yourself, but you're going to go live life in a social setting. I mean, we're social animals and so it's really important to get the social component of the support, the perspective. Right. One of the biggest things getting family involved is we don't all see every situation similarly. Right. Sometimes we need to hear and understand from others how they view the behavior, how they view the past, how they view specific past events. So yes, family and, or loved ones getting involved early is important. And then for most people who do this kind of work for themselves, it's really important at some point in the process to have others around you that you can talk to about the struggles. Family is not always the right fit for that. Right. I'm married, I've got three kids. Kids coming to my wife all the time with my internal discomfort makes her my therapist, not my wife. And that's probably not a, not the best tool long term, right. To turn your, your significant other, your mom or your dad or your sister into your therapist.
[22:05]
B
Are family members and other people, their circle, willing to participate? Or does the person affected feel too ashamed to include those people? Or like, how important is it to either do it or not do it in order for someone to heal?
[22:17]
C
You know, it really varies, man. I mean, I've worked, worked with couples and families where family members literally say, essentially, look, this is their issue, let them deal with it. It's not, you know, I'm not the problem. So I have dealt with that. I've also dealt with families who want to get involved. But then as you pointed out, the client doesn't want them to get involved either because they're the family members or the people close to him or her feel like part of the problem or because of that shame piece as you mentioned, which is incredibly, incredibly powerful in addiction. And I've also seen oftentimes the opposite where family members become aware of the problem long before the client does. So the family members are actually more interest, interested in doing work than the client themselves. I've seen all three of those scenarios play out. I'm a big believer. We actually on my website for Ignited, we have a family SOS program for family members who want to understand how to deal with this better. I'll tell you that unfortunately, no more than 20, maybe 30% of family members want to actively get involved. The involvement is intense. It's serious. You would think more would want to do it. But a lot of people look at it like, especially because we think of addiction as a disease. They say, well, you know, my husband has a disease. Why am I going to have to do any work? It's their work that, you know, they should go get the medicine. I think that does make the process a lot harder and less likely to be successful.
[23:30]
B
Well, maybe because a part of everybody is like, man, I wish I could, you know, get the benefits of getting high without getting high through someone else. Like, you know, my. My brother could do it. You know, I think he. He does it. He gets the quote, unquote benefits of being high. He has to deal with all the negative stuff. I, as a brother just had to deal with the negative stuff only is kind of unfair. And maybe it's weird to say, but that's just what came to mind, you know?
[23:51]
C
Can you go into that a little bit more? What do you mean?
[23:53]
B
Let's say. I don't know, let's say, like, your brother is, I don't know, whatever. Smokes weed and gets high all the time, and it affects you negatively. Like, you asked him to go do something, he doesn't do it. He's always forgetting stuff. He's always, you know, so he's getting the benefits of feeling good and feeling high, and he deals with the consequences of being bump and getting yelled at. But me, as his brother, I only get the negative. So if you ask me to step in and help, it's like, maybe a part of me is like, man, why do I have to do that? Like, I. I'm already suffering because of his. Yes. And now I got to step in and do more. But I'm not the one causing this problem. And he's getting the. The good stuff out of it and the bad. Like, that's not fair, you know?
[24:29]
C
Yes. I love that. Thank you. I'm happy we went a little bit more deeply into it. Here's the interesting thing, right? It's funny. I talk about this with leaders around work addiction too, right? I mean, think about it this way, right? A CEO who escapes into work and doesn't really talk to their family or their spouse because there's always more work to do. So whenever there's a tense conversation, whenever something get comfortable at home, they run to work. Work is always there. It seems like we can make the same kind of argument, right? It's like, well, why am I going to go pay all this attention for both sides? I mean, the wife at home, I'm just, I'm being very stereotypical here. So excuse that, but, you know, maybe the wife at home is saying, no, I don't want to talk to him. I haven't talked to him in 15 years while he's been doing this. Why am I going to start talking to him now, have. Have paperwork on it, solve the problem, and then, you know, potentially this. I made him a male CEO. Again, apologies to everybody for making being so stereotypical, but, you know, the guy might be sitting there going, well, I have work to go. I'm supporting. I don't want to go do all this emotional work. That's. That's not what I want to do. I want to just keep doing what I'm doing, right? And that's true. But that's true for every argument everybody ever has on the face of the planet. When we can stand on opposite sides of this bridge and say, no, no, you have to come to me, and when you come to me, then we'll do the work. We can do that. It just rarely resolves any problem. You can talk about that on the politics front. You can talk about it, you know, in a relationship. You could talk about it at work, right? If you have a, if you're somebody's boss, you can say, hey, no, forget that. I want my staff to just get better and I don't need to provide them the training. But that's just not the way the reality works. The way the reality works is if, let's say, I'm going to use the example you gave, right? If my brother is causing me pain because of their use, I'm already experiencing pain. It might require some work by me to reduce that pain. And that's just part of the reality of life, right? It's going to. Anything worthwhile normally takes effort, including making a situation better that you didn't cause.
[26:16]
B
That seems to be a tough pill to swallow. You know, maybe that's for a reason. That family is only that. You said 20 to 30% that are willing to do it 100%.
[26:24]
C
And also they've been damage. And so there was entry.
[26:26]
B
Yeah, yeah, definitely. What about group? Is it helpful or hurtful to, you know, if you have, I don't know, five people that are, you know, smoking weed all the time to put them into a group, like do some, some solo sessions and some group ones, or is it better to just leave them individual? Like, what, what have you Found I
[26:42]
C
actually like group a lot. The reason I like groups. So, you know, I've done, I've done both. I've done many, many sessions of both. But and just for everybody listening right now, I still run the same group that I've been running for eight years on Tuesday at 1pm Pacific on our program. And I do it much. I love groups. Richard. You know, when you do a one on one session with a client, I bring my experience and my knowledge from other clients and the clients bring their story. But that's, that's all you got, right? That's what you've got to work with in that session. Well, the thing that happens is sometimes people, we all have biases. We all. None of us see the world objectively, right? So I'm sitting with a client and they're telling me their version of the story. And that's what I can work off of based on the experience I have in the world. The nice thing that happens in group, I can't tell you the number of times I've had a client decide that they wanted to talk about something. So one person out of a group of, let's say eight people in a room starts a conversation. Conversation. And they talk about something uncomfortable, a conflict they've had, something at work, a relapse they had, whatever it may be, they get through their story. We work on their part. And then either in the moment or later, somebody else from that same group says to me, oh my gosh, I came to that group and I was angry or I was resentful, or I was anxious and I didn't really know why. And then I listened to John Doe's story and all of a sudden it clicked for me. And the way you guys talked about the topic really helped me understand myself better. You get this normalization, number one. Seeing other people talking about things you struggle with makes a lot easier to swallow. And the second piece is you just get this mirror that we are really hard at providing for us. We're really, really weak at providing for ourselves. It's really hard to look at your own behavior objectively, but when you see somebody else talk about it, all of a sudden you can see yourself more clearly. And that's why I love groups.
[28:19]
B
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's. That's definitely true.
[28:21]
C
Yeah, I love it. It's one of my favorite ways to work with people.
[28:24]
B
Are there particular addictions that are just really difficult to help people overcome versus others?
[28:29]
C
There are some that are really painful. So I. Alcohol and benzodiazepines. People don't think about them, but if you've had that for a while, if you use those heavily for a while, it's really, really hard to come off them. And actually medically dangerous. So that's one. Gambling addictions, as anybody who just stops and think about them for a second are, can be incredibly costly. Right. They can collapse families. I mean, so they're terrible for that reason. You know, porn addictions aren't damaging in the way that a lot of these other addictions damage people. But I've seen, seen them including, and I've shared about this publicly, so I'm not saying anything I haven't said before, but including in my own relationship with my wife. This is many, many years ago now, but they can almost break up marriages. So that's another big one. Right? They all have, they all have different types of impact. And then one obvious one is anytime you're using illegal substances in today's world, you have to worry about cross contamination and the potential of overdose just by chance. So they're all dangerous in different ways, but they can definitely, definitely cause issues. One thing I will say just for the benefit of anybody listening to this who doesn't know it, a lot of people use kava or kratom publicly. They're totally legal and you can buy them in drinks or pills and all these other in your powders, all these different versions. A lot of people don't realize how habit forming those can be. And if you use those at high levels over time and your tolerance develops, they can be really hard to get off of as well.
[29:44]
B
Oh, it could be medically dangerous too, or just dangerous to use them as well.
[29:47]
C
I mean, opiates are normally not medically dangerous to get off of. Sometimes it can be, but mostly they're just, I mean, it's severe pain, severe pain to, to recover from an opiate. I always tell people, just remember any coping strategy you use, whatever gave you to use it, you're going to pay back in taxes when you stop. So if you get addicted to anxiety relief medication like benzodiazepines, when you get off of them, you're going to have a ton of anxiety for very, very long. Alcohol calms you down. You're going to be really anxious when you stop. You know, opiates, they reduce physical and emotional pain. Well, guess what, you're going to be in a lot of pain when you stop taking them. It's always the payback is always what? The same as the benefit you got, plus interest?
[30:25]
B
Yeah, that's very interesting. I like that model. I mean, I don't like it, but I mean, it's formative.
[30:30]
C
Yeah. Nobody likes it, but it makes sense.
[30:31]
B
So what, what are some. The paths someone could take when they finally come to the point they're like, man, you know, my, my problem is now really affecting me and the people around me. I gotta do something about it. Is the first thing to talk to somebody is the first thing to read a book? Like, how do they start approaching it and begin getting help?
[30:51]
C
Beautiful question. I mean, the number one thing to do is to start where you're willing to start. So reading a book is great. I've written a couple of them and there are a lot of other really great books on addiction. You don't even have to focus on addiction. So habit change. Books can help you if you do the like. If you read Unhooked, for instance, and you start identifying some of the underlying issues, like you realize some trauma you had when you were younger, or attachment problems from childhood, or an activating event that you need to work on, then you go find books, podcasts and videos and lessons and workshops about that topic, right? How to fix your relationship, how to improve your mood, how to get, you know, address old trauma. So books, podcasts, et cetera are great. The thing is, they're only really great for people, like I said before, Richard, who are going to read a book and then go implement. Right? You then have to go do work. A book will never fix the way you, you live your life. It can help change the perspective, which can make it easier to change your behavior. But the change in the behavior is what we really want in the end. So some people need to go to the next level, which is seeing a therapist doing an online program like our program at Ignited, or, you know, something else that allows you to get hand holding from a professional, you know, to, to be able to get some of that help. And then some people find that they need an even higher level. Like just being out in community makes it hard for them to engage. They may need an intensive output patient in a sober living environment, or they may even need to go to residential for a month or two in order to protect themselves from being triggered and relapsing while they're building the capacity for behavior change itself.
[32:17]
B
Okay, so where, where, where can you help people through your books? I mean, it sound, they sound excellent. You have a lot of knowledge, a lot of experience. What about, you know, the group itself? Like, can you help anyone in the US Are there only certain states?
[32:30]
C
Yeah, no. So we, no, we work internationally and you know, if you go to ignited.com that's igntd.com it' easy to sign up for our online programs. It's really affordable. We made it affordable on purpose and like I said, it's actually the only semi affordable way to work with me. I have two groups a week that I still run on that program and so if you want to work with me directly, that's the easiest and cheapest way to work with me. We're talking like, I think the cheapest is like 150amonth. It's really, really affordable. That's way number one. The books are obviously a great one as well. And then I do, I offer these really intensive sessions that I do with. That's what I do with executives and some of the other people that I work with. When somebody is really committed to creat, I have these 90 day programs that are incredibly intense and they're driven to, you know, create years worth of change in months. But like I said before, they require a lot of commitment and you really have to be willing to put the work in.
[33:21]
B
Well, very good. Od. Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me. It's been a good call and I appreciate. I encourage people to check out your books and to check into your groups. What's the website where they can go to check out other groups if they wish to.
[33:33]
C
So the groups are@ignated.com igntd.com and if you want to talk to me more directly or something about me, either on social media at Dr. Adjaffe or adjaffee.com okay, excellent.
[33:46]
B
Well, again, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. I appreciate it.
[33:49]
C
Thank you so much for having me, Richard. And just a reminder to anybody out there who is struggling, there's a path out of your struggle. I've been there myself. It doesn't have to be me. I don't. I mean, I'd always love to meet with people, but I don't care if it's me or not. Just go find tools and start implementing them. It's worth it on the other side. If you like this podcast, please click the link in the description to subscribe. Subscribe and review us on itunes.
[34:11]
A
Thank you for listening to the Good Question podcast. Please email support thegoodquestionpodcast.com if you have any referrals to great guests for us to interview. Visit thegoodquestionpodcast.com to hear more interviews. And please help us spread the word by rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcasts, iTunes, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you listen to this podcast.