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[00:01]
A
You're listening to the Good Question podcast with Richard Jacobs. Our goal is to make each of our guests exclaim, hmm, that's a good question. I don't know the answer. Because when that happens, it means you, the listener, may be inspired to learn more beyond the interview and to ask great questions yourself that lead to new insights. In this podcast, we cover historical and current anthropology, comparative religion, and history. Welcome. And let's get started.
[00:36]
B
Hello, this is Richard Jacobs with the Good Question podcast. I've got a great guest, Mark Woolen. He wrote a book called It Didn't Start with youh. He's just recently updated it. We're doing this call April 2026. So if you are interested in this book, which I think is fantastic, look for the new version. It has a circle in the top left of the COVID that has been revised and updated. And he also has a workbook, so I just want to mention that. But, you know, welcome, Mark. Thanks for coming.
[01:02]
C
Thank you for having me, Richard. I'm glad be here.
[01:04]
B
Yeah. So your book is about intergenerational trauma. And I guess culturally, you know, of course, I'm sure everyone's heard, like, oh, you're. You're just like your mother. You're just like your brother, you know, or, oh, you, you. You know, you have the eyes of your grandfather, those kind of things. And I think a lot of times they throw away lines. But it sounds like in your whole investigation, in your book, like, the picture is very different. So maybe, like, get a little bit of background on yourself and, and how you came to write the book.
[01:28]
C
Okay, so let. Let me talk about what in here, because it's not. Everybody's aware of what inherited family is. So we've got. We've got a regular life. You know, our life is on track. We've ticked off all the boxes. We've done all the right things. Good college, good job, maybe even married the right partner. But every morning we wake up and we feel incredibly alone, or we're struggling with panic attacks or a grief that we can't explain. And the answer could lie in a trauma that happened to one of our parents or grandparents or maybe even a great grandparent. So let's take, for example, our parents, maybe our grandmother or grandfather died when they were young, or our mother or father was sent away to live with relatives or placed in foster care, or one of their siblings died tragically. So something like this can devastate a family, as we know. But the reaction to the trauma doesn't necessarily stop with the people who experienced it. So the feelings and sensations, specifically the stress response, the way our genes express this, can pass forward to the children and the grandchildren, affecting them in a similar way, even though they didn't personally experience the trauma.
[02:44]
B
Yeah, that's, that's odd. So what would be an example, like what's a striking example of this that is either in the book or not in the book that you've experienced or seen?
[02:51]
C
Yeah, no, that's, that's. I just put the new book together and I put some of my favorite cases in the last 10 years in the, in the new book. I'll, I'll tell you one. So a mom calls me to work with her 16 year old boy who a rare neurological disorder. So when he was 10, he began experiencing intense burning, burnout sensations on his skin. And the doctors couldn't figure out what was happening. They couldn't find any root cause. You know, they called it an idiopathic neurological condition, which means they have no clue where it comes from. So I'm speaking to his mom and I go, okay, tell me about his dad. You know, it's my first question because it's the first boy in the family and often that links to a trauma with the father. And she tells me a story, story about a trauma his father experienced. When the father was a 10 year old boy, he was playing with matches and accidentally set the garage on fire. And then the house catches fire and the house burns down. And the father, who's a 10 year old boy, gets his mother out, but he can't get his brother out. His brother dies in the fire and then the father, 10 year old boy, all the way up to 50 years old, never forgives himself. And because the trauma remains unhealed, unresolved, the man's son in the next generation begins expressing symptoms, burning sensations on his skin at the same age the father was. And the family never makes this connection. So after working with the family, I had the father tell the son about what happened to him and what happened to his brother and how much he missed his brother and how guilty he felt. And after, you know, bringing this to light, the boy's burning sensations went away. I want to, I want to be clear that not always by telling the story do we heal. Often it takes trauma work. You know, we have to go in and work with fight, flight, freeze responses. But this was a case where just knowing what happened and the father, you know, there's a crying, he's telling his son about the story, showing pictures of his brother, the symptoms subsided.
[04:58]
B
What do you think is happening? Like, I, you know, I don't know your background, but do you think there's like epigenetic change in the person that experiences a trauma and that somehow is inherited, you know, one or two generations later and that's why people have this intergenerational trauma? Like, how else could this happen besides cellular memory or genetic memory?
[05:17]
C
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, when a trauma happens, you know, trauma in this generation does, you know, it changes us. Literally. It causes a chemical change in our DNA and this changes how our genes function sometimes for generations, which is what we're talking about here. So technically, trauma happens and then there's chemical signals in our cells, what they call chemical tags or epigenetic tags that attach to the DNA and tell our cel use or ignore certain genes so we can better deal with this thing that just happened, this trauma. And then the way our genes express, the way our genes are affected can change how we act or how we feel. For example, we can become sensitive or reactive to situations that are similar to the original trauma. And if it's generational, even if that trauma occurred in a past generation, so that we have a better chance of surviving it in this generation. And that's the problem. So, for example, if our grandparents came from a war torn country, so people are being shot, bombs are going off, just like what's happening now, Uniformed men are lining people up in the street or up in, you know, in the square, and people are being taken away. Our grandparents would develop and pass forward a skill set, let's say in this case it could be positive things. Sharper reflexes, quicker reaction times, reactions to the violence to help them survive that trauma that they just experienced. But here's the problem. What they're passing forward is a stress response almost with the dials set to 10. So the next generations are prepared for this war and war never arrives. And then we, we're those grandchildren. You know, we don't make the link that our anxiety, our hyper vigilance, our depression or is connected to our parents or grandparents. We just think we're wired this way. And this is what, you know, this is what prompted me to write the.
[07:16]
A
Yeah.
[07:16]
B
When I was reading the book, stories about my uncle who I never met came to mind. You know, my mom would say, like, oh, he was this way and that way. And you know, I just, I look like him and my personality to him is very similar. And the interactions I have with like, you know, my older people in my family are similar too. So it's weird. It's in a way I'm like, I guess reliving parts of his life. It feels like it's very, very odd to think about that, you know.
[07:39]
C
Well, you know, that could be really possible. So that might even out not be epigenetics. You know, epigenetics is just one explanation. There's something else that we've, we look at and it's called unconscious loyalty. So we will, we will seem to finish. You know, even Carl Jung talked about this, that there was this unfinished business in the family that he seemed to feel, I quote that in the book that he felt he had to complete. But, but, you know, if we're talking about epigenetics, it's memories of these traumas are imprinted in our parents and grandparents, sperm cells and egg cel. And somehow this information passes forward to us. And as a result, we're born with an altered brain. Fight, flight, freeze responses that are preparing us biologically to cope with these traumas similar to the ones they experienced. So again, like this trauma happens and then information rich molecules would be a way, I could say it will latch onto our DNA and they'll act like dimmer switches controlling sections of the DNA, you know, which get used and which do not. In other words, which genes get turned on and which genes get turned off. But then there's this other thing that you just brought up about uncles and victims and perpetrators in the family that people will, that is not epigenetics, that people will tend to repeat aspects of a trauma, particularly if somebody's been excluded, rejected, people feel ashamed of this person, people are embarrassed of this person or something so painful happened nobody will talk about it. Or if there's perpetrators in the family that have done terrible things to members of our family or victims, victims in our family who've had terrible things happen to them, the next generation or the generation after that can be born reliving or enacting behaviors that are similar to the people that have been excluded. If that makes sense.
[09:36]
B
Yeah, it's just amazing to think about how do you avoid blame? You know, some people, you know, you know, some people can never take responsibility for anything. I'm sure there's a subset of people that are like, see, it was a grandmother and they did this to me. And that's why I am the way that I am. Do you know that you run into that and what do you do?
[09:53]
C
Well, see, what you're bringing up is perfect because when people don't keep their hearts open, let's say when people don't do their inner work. When people go into blame or feel, you know, shame, embarrassment, grief, rage, pain, you know, this is what creates. Let me say it a different way. This is what can contribute to this generational reliving, this. This generational repeating. So people always ask me that. They say, why do traumas repeat? You know, I see that you every. Most people have trauma in their family history, but not everyone manifests inherited family trauma. Why do some people seem to relive and others don't? And, you know, I would say right off the bat, epigenetics is only one piece of the puzzle. But, you know, there's another piece. What I found, what seems to anchor these traumas, what creates or contributes to people repeating or these repetitions, is when the traumas aren't talked about or the healing is incomplete because the pain or the grief is too great, or the people, our family system are excluded or rejected, basically, there's not been any resolution. Then aspects of these traumas can show up in later generations and unconsciously will repeat the pattern or share a similar misfortune or a similar unhappiness until that trauma finally has a chance to heal. For Freud, he observed. He observed this over a hundred years ago. So he called it repetition compulsion, that the trauma is merely seeking an opportunity for a better outcome so it can resolve, so it can heal. I would say it. I would add to that. I'd say that the contraction, contraction, the tight, fight, flight, freeze, the contraction of the trauma is ultimately looking for its expansion. And it'll repeat in a family until that expansion happens.
[11:46]
B
Yeah, you know, it's just. Yeah, it's odd. Like, you know, my mom has passed away, but she. She never liked fruit. And we would ask her, and she would, like, I would say, mom, why don't you lay lemons and stuff? And she was like, I don't want to talk about it. I have a headache. You know, that's what. That's what she'd tell me. And she would never tell me what happened.
[12:01]
C
And something could have happened. There could have been a trauma when she's a little girl and there are lemons in the bowl, and she conflates the experience of lemons with what happened. I mean, I don't know. I'm taking a guess here.
[12:13]
B
Right, right, right, right. It's a weird and it's a strange thing, and people, like, laugh and, you know, it's like, silly. But yeah, I remember, like. And she would just never talk about it. And it's funny. My. My wife's like, One time she was going to tell me, but then you made fun of her. And she stops. I'm like, she wasn't going to tell you. We, and my, my brother and I would joke like, you know, she'd be near the end and she's like, the reason I don't like lemons is, is. And then she would, you know, pass again. We would make these jokes, but it turns out she never told us. It's just a strange thing that had to come from somewhere. Yeah, I don't know.
[12:47]
C
She might not even know. That's the problem. That's one of the reasons, you know, I did all this work. Because people are suffering with symptoms that they can't explain and feelings they can't explain that don't come from our life experience. They come from our parents or grandparents life. And so that's why I wrote the book, so people can say, hey, wait a minute, this. There's no context for me feeling this way, but there's certainly a context for my dad feeling this way. And you know, I remember working with a guy whose dad was cheated on by his mom. And six months or so after they got married, and so the guy doesn't understand, but he's married. And within six months he actually, as soon as he gets married, he shuts down physically to his wife, wife saying, you're gonna leave me, you're gonna cheat on me, you're gonna. And she go, no, I love you, I'm not leaving you. You're my man, I'm not leaving you.
[13:39]
B
But he's just married you. Yeah, yeah.
[13:41]
C
He's convinced because he's carrying the, the essence, the aspects of his dad's experience. And so that's why I always tell people, look, ask your parents what happened. Ask your mom what happened when you were little. Ask her what happened, how she was feeling when you were in the womb. Ask her what happened before. You have memory. Age one, age two. When we look at the embryology, the biology, the heartbeat begins within 20 days of conception. And then the neural tube, the neural groove, that which will become our nervous system, is 20 to 30 days. So within the first month we're not cognitive, but within the first month in utero, we're to some degree sentient or somatic. So we may have somatic memory, certainly not cognitive, of our mother feeling trapped and not wanting to marry our dad, or our dad's drinking and she's now feeling complete disappointment or she didn't get enough from her mother, so she's afraid she is not going to be a good mother or she lost the baby before us and she's worried we will die too. So if your moms are alive, please ask her mental state, her emotional state, what she was thinking and feeling when you were in the womb and also all the events that happened in the first few years of life, you know, age 1, 2, 3, 4. Because these are the most important times for neurodevelopment when the brain is being wired for safety or lack of safety. When the brain is being wired for, you know, feeling peaceful or hyper vigilant. And we need to know that. So the, you know, Richard, you read my book, so you know what I did. In this chapter, I'm talking generational. In the next chapter, I'm talking attachment. Next generic chapter, I'm going back to generational. Then I'm going. So it's, it's a dance between these two types of trauma that we don't remember, we don't know.
[15:38]
B
Well, you know, you, whether you're a faith or not. By the way, this, this shows up in the Bible in Exodus, it talk about like the sins, the sins of the father being visited upon the children, grandchildren and maybe even great grandchildren. So I thought that was just before generation mind.
[15:51]
C
Yeah, absolutely. And that's, that's key because just like it says we science shows us, proves to us that we can be affected generationally by these traumas from anywhere from three to five generations. You know, it's interesting. One of the reasons I updated the book is because a lot of new science came out that I didn't have when I wrote the original copy 10 years ago. So in 2025, the, the new, it didn't start with you came out and I put in all the, this amazing work with humans that we didn't have tell you study. So they were able to look at a 2025 study done with Syrian refugees who'd gone through war and they gone through war and they, they're able to discover in the genome the epigenome, the intergenerational epigenetic signature of violence that's embedded in the genome. Specifically, they can find epigenetic changes, in this case DNA changes in DNA methylation that are found in grandmothers, then the their daughters and then their infants. And you know, similar. There's a study that came out of Brazil that women who were experienced, who were exposed to partner violence while they were pregnant with their daughters, all three generations were affected with these epigenetic changes specifically, again, DNA methylation, which is one of the mechanisms of transgenerational epigenetic transformation transfer. What that does is it blocks proteins from attaching to the DNA. And what that does, it suppresses the expression of the DNA. So the DNA, the DNA doesn't change itself. The what changes is how it expresses, how it, how it responds.
[17:36]
B
Yeah, yeah. You know, what's one, one crazy thing that came to mind as I was reading your book is I realized I don't know, I don't know what percentage, but probably 80, maybe 90% of all African Americans in the U.S. for instance, even if they didn't experience slavery, because parents, grandparents, great grandparents probably did that maybe as a, as a type of people, they're all walking around traumatized and they don't know it. Like the entire African American population of the US Easily a majority of it could be affected in this way is what came to my mind.
[18:07]
C
We call that collective trauma. So that's another facet of trauma. When there's something that happens to a people, for instance, people who are enslaved, you know, the next generations could have of experiences, families forced, that were forced to be broken apart, Children that don't get to be raised by their parents, parents that don't get to raise their children. These aspects of these traumas can continue into future generations. You're absolutely right. I mean we, we see this in groups, you know, and we have to wonder, you know, why aren't we also walking around traumatized? Well, guess what? Many of us are car walking around traumatized from the fact that our mother had a, a sister that died in the, you know, eighth month of pregnancy. And then grandma gets pregnant again with our mother and is afraid our mother will die too, in utero. And then there's a broke, break in the bond or we even see these weird connections in the next generation. We lose a baby in a late term pregnancy. See, so it's everywhere. And again, that's what I'm doing. That's, I'm trying to say people, you know, if there's thing, if there's symptoms you can't explain, feelings you can't explain, situations you can't explain, behaviors you can't explain. Let's, let's take a look and do, do a genogram and see what happened. Genogram, which is a family tree and draw it out or let's ask questions and if our parents aren't alive, let's ask our cousins what they, what they heard.
[19:40]
B
You know, I mean when. I don't know what the name of the video is, it was a really good one on YouTube. It's it said like inheritance doesn't happen evenly. The mathematics of it could be very skewed. So like, you know, you're, you're not necessarily half of your mom, half of your dad, and it's much less likely that you're a quarter of each of your grandparents. You could be like, you know, I don't know, 46% like one and.002% like another. So it said like inheritance is incredibly lumpy. You just don't know how. You know, sperm and egg will mix across excessive generations. And perhaps that's why traits will skip a generation or two. And you know, so someone may be like their grandfather or their great grandmother, you know, a material part of it may be like that. They just don't know. That's just how the combination of sperm and egg throughout the generations happened in their family. So it's again, it's not an even inheritance. I have to find a video, but it was really interesting.
[20:33]
C
You know, you've got to look at why one sibling seems to have escaped the burden of inherited trauma and the next next sibling suffers deeply. And then, you know, we have to look at these things. Who inherited what? You're right, it is not even. And then you, you talked about material DNA. So there's two types of DNA. There's the DNA responsible for our physical traits, our body, legs, nose, hair, and then there's something called non coding rna. So what happens is what they find find is that there are changes to this non coding, which they thought used to be junk DNA they would call it. But what happens is the. When there are changes to the levels of non coding rna, what we find is that those people who get more or less. Let me talk about the three common mechanisms because this is important. So what makes this transgenerational, epigenetic, these alterations. So one talked about, which is DNA methylation. And this blocks certain proteins from attaching to the DNA, suppressing its expression. Okay, great. Well, there's another one, histone modification. And this affects the structure and function of the proteins that read the gene. And then what I was just talking about this non coding rna. These levels regulate the ability of the coding RNA to make proteins a bit. But all this means is all 3, 3 affect which genes get turned on. To put it simply, which genes get turned on, which genes get turned off. So getting back to our siblings, we have maybe a balance of the levels of RNA populations, but our sibling does not and thus carries this generational trauma of fear or hypervigilance. So it can be, and I Know, I'm mixing terms, but you know, RNA is replicated from DNA and it functions as a, a messenger that communicates to the cells r produce these proteins. So cells also contain these non coding RNAs that don't produce proteins and instead they piggyback off the messenger RNAs and disrupting or amplifying their function and again increasing or decreasing the production of these proteins which ultimately affect which genes get turned on and which ones get turned off.
[22:57]
B
Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's really amazing. Another thing that came to mind too, but when it goes back to my mom, her, her mother was like a real, real, real bad alcohol and she'd come home and use them and all that. So my mom kind of fractured one way and became like phobic and you know, like meek and a people pleaser. And then my aunt fractured the other way. She became like hardcore, I mean, literally like a lifelong criminal. Just like a tough, mean old person, you know. So also the reaction to trauma seems to. It fractures people along different lines. There's always the same response to it. It seems like, absolutely.
[23:34]
C
And what you're describing are the girls have attachment trauma. So if grandma's an alcoholic and she's not able to give your aunt or your mother what they needed, you're exactly right. One girl, your mother turns into a woman who's meek and a people pleaser because her strategy is be nice, be good, don't rock the boat, don't make waves. And the, and the other daughter's response again to attachment trauma, we're describing, you know, not necessarily generational trauma here. We're describing a mother who couldn't give an enough to her daughters. The other daughter becomes tough as nails. You know, don't mess with me or bite your head off. And again, these are strategies, personality strategies to a trauma of not getting what they needed. Look, when we didn't feel seen or known or soothed by our mother, that's a big T trauma. That's a big T attachment trauma.
[24:29]
B
You gave examples in the book, right, of, you know, a mother would have a baby and then shortly thereafter she would just, you know, distance herself or not really want to take care of it in the way she should and she didn't know why. And it came from, you know, in that case, generational trauma. And one of the examples you gave, it's amazing how it, how you can act out in certain ways and you have no idea where it comes from. It's in. And some of these ways are incredibly strong and Life altering. It's just, I was just, I was amazed when I read the book. It was just really crazy, you know,
[24:56]
C
thank you for reading it, Richard. You know, and again, you know, I just, I want to tell people what I tried to do in the book. Here is I'm not. Even though I'm known as the generational guy, that, that's what I did. I wrote this book. It's a best seller, sold 3 million copies. But the truth is, more people will express attachment trauma than generational trauma, even though it's massively important to look at generational trauma. But, you know, most, most of us have stopped trusting that we can receive from our mother. And we either shut down to our mother or we tried to take care of our, our mother's feelings. You know, the strategy was if I make my mom feel okay, then I'll be okay.
[25:37]
A
Okay.
[25:37]
C
But many of us have a break in the bond with her. So when we have a break in the bond, it really is a challenge to feel safe and secure in life. Because when that connection to the mother is cut off, either physically or emotionally, we have difficulty trusting the feeling of who we are inside because our inner experience of ourself is dependent on our mother's attunement, on our mother's attention. So I always say that a break in the bond with our mom is often felt as a break in the bond with ourselves. So we then become cut off from our core, cut off from our gut feelings. And now we have anxiety and terror and panic and fight flight, freeze responses, reactivity to situations that feel scary, like our early relationship with our mom. So like you were telling me, your mom becomes a people pleaser. Well, that's one set of be a good child, please your parents, do well in school, be efficient, be capable, be self sufficient. You know, be a gift. Give her, take care of mom. She's bad off, She's a drinker. But. But then the other response is to become withdrawn, untrusting, hyper vigilant, you know, like the aunt. So, you know, I love that you brought that up. Not, I mean, I mean, I'm sorry that it was difficult, but I like that you brought it up because it really. She lets me teach about the aspects of these breaks in the bonds and how we can become untrusting and therefore we become a people pleaser or untrusting or. And then therefore we come, we become a bond bear.
[27:12]
B
So either way, yeah, it's weird. What happens if you're experiencing, I don't know, just unusual things and, you know, do you read your book? But the people that could have caused us to feel this way intergenerationally, they're passed away or maybe nothing's even known about them. You know, how do you resolve this trauma? Like, who do you cry out to, to, to resolve it for you? How do you, you know, how do you deal with it?
[27:35]
C
That. See, that's a lot of times our parents are gone or they won't talk rock. And we are struggling, but we can't get the answers or we're adopted. So I always say that this information lives inside us. It's in our trauma language. You know, when I wrote the book, I talk a lot about something called core language, which is the things that we say or the ways that we act. It's a language, it's verbal, but it also lives in our fears. It's in our unexplained symptoms. It's in our self destructive or self sabotaging behavior behaviors. It's in the symptoms of an illness that appear after an unsettling event. That's information. That's a clue. Okay, I had an event and I had this event at 20. And then after that I changed. And now that tells a lot. Did somebody at age 20ish? 20, 19, 20, 21 in your family go through something or tell me about the event that happened and how that is like an alarm clock bringing you back to an earlier rejection. So you got rejected and now the taking you to that break in the attachment with your mom. And then you have to look at that. You also see this in our relationship struggles or the repeated ways we deal with money and success. All this is a breadcrumb trail that if we follow it, even if we don't have the information, we don't need it. It's right there. So, you know, that's what, that's what I do with people. I, you know, let's, let's see what's going on inside you in the book. And here's how, how we work with it, here's how we heal that. That's actually, you know, I was telling you before we started about the workbook. I, I wrote a book, the official it didn't start with you workbook, just so people could work with me where I walk step by step with who's ever reading it. And I'm asking the right questions so you can link what you're feeling, what you're experiencing, to the traumas either in your family history or the traumas when you were small and had no memory. And it goes really deep. In fact, I was, I was wr. I was. I would have my wife on the do these practices and to the level that she would be crying or experiencing deep relief or release was. I go, okay, that one's a keeper. So, yeah, it's a pretty good book.
[29:52]
B
Is there a component of forgiveness that's necessary? Like, you know, let's say I got something from my grandfather. I had no idea. I mean, he certainly had no idea. Let's say, you know, he made me into a. Whatever. You know, I can't. I can never love somebody or something. Do I have to as part of the therapy? Like, even if I don't know where it came from, like forgive, forgive. You know who it was in my ancestry that may have given me this, because again, he certainly had no idea they would be doing it. And I'm sure they would. Would feel bad about it. But is that part of the healing? Is that required?
[30:21]
C
If you're asking me, it's always a good idea to have no emotional charge around something, to be neutral. So, you know, the more work we do inside, the less charge we have. So, for example, people say, hey, Mark, well, you know, my parent was terrible and they did this, and they did this, this. And I say, yeah, you need to have some disconnect while you work on yourself because if you try to have a relationship now and you're still shrinking or collapsing or going into caretaking mode, you're not ready to have that relationship. But then I also say this, that here, when we reject a parent, there are three ways that rejection operates unconsciously, Richard, inside us. The first way we'll unconsciously reject aspects of ourselves self we can't see when we're the same because we've disowned that behavior in ourselves. And. And then that behavior is expressing unconsciously. For example, our mother was cold. And we say, I'll never be cold. But we often are cold because if we didn't get enough, we often can't give enough. And then. But we can't see it in ourselves. So that's the first way. Or the second way is we'll pull in a partner who treats us coldly and. Or, you know, so we, you know, again, another chance to heal that drama is now we pulled in a cold part, but then there's something else we do, Richard. We'll pull in a nice partner but see them as cold. And we could ruin the relationship because we're overlaying that experience with our mom or dad onto that partner. And then there's a third way that that rejection operates inside us, you know, we'll treat ourselves, the child, part of us, our inner child, the way we feel we were treated. So if our parents couldn't be gentle with us, we'll have difficulty being gentle with that child inside us. We'll do ourselves what we believe was done to us. So if our parents were critical or aggressive, we can become self critical or inwardly aggressive. If our parents. If our parents ignored us or they were distant, we can be distant and ignore that inner child. So I want to say that.
[32:29]
B
I want to say that also I would say when. When we finished the story. My mom's side of the family, they had a lot of problems. Like, I think four. So my uncle, my aunt, two of my cousins, I don't even know who el. All have been involved in a lot of violence. You know, they've killed people or they've dealt drugs or, you know, all kinds of stuff. Some, you know, I'm telling my. My youngest all this and she's like, I don't want to meet that side of the family. They're murderers. I guess you're right. You know, Whoops.
[32:56]
C
So, but Richard, we look upstream. So, all right, so we're looking at the cousins. And what do the cousins share with you? A mother.
[33:05]
B
The mother. Yeah, mother.
[33:06]
C
Okay, so. So great. So now we know, like, now that this is a great example because we know mother's mother drank heavily, she was an alcoholic. And now, well, so we know that she wasn't able to shine the light of constancy, of consistency on her kid. So that creates, as I said, I break in the bond with themselves. Mom becomes pleaser, the aunt becomes mean as a snake. And so, but. But we also have to look at grandpa, and then we have to look at grandmother's mother and father. Father. And we have to look. Did anybody take a life? Did anybody feel responsible for someone's death? Did anybody knowingly or unknowingly hurt somebody? Because if we're seeing these repetitions, yes, it can come from break, a break in the attachment, but it can also come from events that nobody wants to talk about. So we look upstream. But it was a really good example that you brought that up about a side of the family, because we all have that.
[34:02]
B
Yeah, it's weird how it happened. Yeah. So what. What work will. Will be coming from this point? You know, now that the book's been out, now that's been revised, what do you. Are you counseling people or what. What works going on with you?
[34:16]
C
Yeah, I. I do. I work with as many people as possible. But, you know, I can't work with all that many because I'm writing the next book now. So my new book is about breaks in the attachment and how we heal them in ourselves. How we heal them in our relationship with our partner, if we have one. And then how we help our children who have breaks in the attachment with their mom. How, how a mom can help her daughter or son heal when she knows there was a break. The kid was in an incubator.
[34:46]
B
I see what you mean. Or like, you know, a father that has to work all the time and they never see their sons or daughters.
[34:53]
C
Let's say the parents divorced early, so on a vacation or mom had to go in the hospital. So these breaks in the attachment need to heal so they don't keep, keep going down the line downstream.
[35:02]
B
Okay, so that's what the newest book's going to be about. That's excellent.
[35:05]
C
Yeah, I did it in these books, too. But I'm just going to go deeper and deeper. That's what I do mean. I get on a topic. I'm like a dog with a bone. And so I revised, you know, it didn't start with you to bring it up to date. And I talk a lot about attachment now to heal it and how to spot it. And that's what I did in the workbook. And now I'm going to go deeper in a new book. So it's like, I don't quit.
[35:26]
B
Well, I was joking with you offline. You know, first we have it didn't start with you. And then the sequel will be like, I'm going to finish this no matter what.
[35:34]
C
That's the title? Yeah, that's the title. I'm, you know, it's, you know, basically I have a title that I'm working on with, but I'm not going to say it just in case somebody gets locked on that title. I'm working with some. But yeah, no, I, I, I can't help but do what I do. You know, I see a problem and I, I write about it and I try to make it clear. And then I give solutions that I know work because I've been doing this for 35 years. So.
[36:00]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
[36:00]
C
So, yeah.
[36:01]
B
One last thing. So what do you, are you spending, you know, besides writing, are you spending your time doing a lot of clinical work? Like, are you advising individual people and counseling them?
[36:10]
C
Yeah, yeah, I, I advise lots of students. I also play lead guitar in a band. So it's like I'm not all work, but yeah, no, I do a lot of clinical work. I do a lot of teaching and a lot of supervision. I have a training, an online training that people who want to learn my work, they don't even have to be clinicians if they want to dive into their own families. And it's a good training. It's right on my website. Markwell Lynn.com.
[36:35]
B
yeah, what about, what about positive things? Yeah, you know, all this is negative. What are positive things? Inherited and.
[36:41]
C
Yeah, very much.
[36:42]
B
How strongly negative?
[36:44]
C
Well, see, that's another reason I wrote the new book, because they, they're showing also that once we have positive experiences that can offset the traumas, that the epigenetic signature disappears. In other words, we can change the way our DNA expresses. So the whole last third of the book is how we heal and how we have these positive experiences that can change our brain and create new neural pathways and stimulate the release of feel good neurotransmitters or feel good hormones. You know, the main thing is we've got to change the way our brains responding to stress and the way our DNA is expressing. And then when we do that, which is what I teach in the book, then we're freer. Our kids are freer and then their kids are freer.
[37:32]
B
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So, yeah, very good. So to get people started, they should look for, you know, it didn't start with you. And again, on the COVID of the book, the top, the left you showed me, there's a circle now that, you know, talks about updated info. So that would be the one that they should get. Is that correct?
[37:48]
C
I think that's the only one you can find now that the only one that's out there is the fully revised and updated version of it didn't start with you, so it's on Amazon or your favorite bookseller. It's the only one that's sold. And then if you want to go deep, if you're the type of person that really likes to go into your inner work, definitely do the workbook.
[38:08]
B
And I would advise people to read it. I mean, it's not just going to inform you, it's probably going to shock you like that. That's what I felt when I read the book. I was like, wow, this is crazy. It was really interesting, but it was just like it amazed me. So I think that, yeah, I just want to give it like, I don't know, as many thumbs up as I can. But it's a really great book and I think every person listening should listen to it. Or read it. Because like I said, you'll. You'll probably be really surprised when you read it. You'll. Your eyes will open and people you know in your family, you'll see them in a different light, I think.
[38:36]
C
Thank you. Yeah, it's how I feel. I mean, I feel the same way. You write, you read it and everything looks, movies look different, TV looks different because you start seeing the generational elements to characters. And you, you know, first of all, you know, it's not just going to change how you experience Netflix or, or where you watch your movies, but it's really going to light up what happened in your family and have you look at things differently. Like, oh, no wonder my grandmom was that way. Look at happened to her. Or no wonder my grand dad lost all his income. He lost all his money. Wow. Because he received an unjust inheritance from the grandparents. So I have this whole section on success and failure. You know, why we. That's, that's one of the later chapters in the book of why we can hold on to what we make and how we cannot hold on to what we make, how we're able to be successful and how we're not able to be successful. And then I have a chapter on relationships too. So yeah, it changes how you look at things, for sure.
[39:37]
B
Excellent. Omar. It's been awesome to talk to you. Thanks for being so open and for coming on the podcast and. Is it Ankur? I can't encourage people enough to read the book, so. Looking forward to your future works too. And thanks for coming.
[39:48]
C
Thank you for having me, Richard. I appreciate it.
[39:51]
B
If you like this podcast, please click the link in the description to subscribe and review us on itunes.
[39:58]
A
Thank you for listening to the Good Question podcast. Please email support@thegoodquestionpodcast.com if you have any referrals to great guests for us to interview, visit thegoodquestionpodcast.com to hear more interviews. And please help us spread the word by rating and reviewing us on Apple podcasts, iTunes, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you listen to this podcast.

Summary6 min read

The Good Question Podcast

Episode: Breaking Generational Patterns – Mark Wolynn On Family Trauma, Epigenetics & Emotional Healing
Host: Richard Jacobs
Guest: Mark Wolynn
Date: July 30, 2026

Overview

This episode delves deep into the concept of intergenerational trauma with renowned author and therapist Mark Wolynn, who discusses the science and lived experience behind family trauma, epigenetics, and the pathways to emotional healing. With personal stories, current research, and practical advice, Wolynn explains how unresolved trauma can be unwittingly inherited and relived across generations—and, importantly, how awareness and healing can break these long-standing cycles.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

What is Intergenerational Trauma?

Inherited Family Trauma Defined:
Wolynn describes how unresolved trauma experienced by one generation can be passed down—sometimes unknowingly—to children and grandchildren, manifesting as unexplained anxieties, behavioral patterns, or physical symptoms in descendants.

"The answer could lie in a trauma that happened to one of our parents or grandparents or maybe even a great grandparent." – Mark Wolynn (01:28)

Real-Life Case Study: The Burning Sensation

Manifestation of Trauma:
Wolynn recounts a dramatic case from his practice— a boy developed unexplained burning sensations at age 10, which resolved only after he learned about a childhood trauma suffered by his father at the same age.

"After working with the family, I had the father tell the son about what happened…after bringing this to light, the boy's burning sensations went away." – Mark Wolynn (03:55)
[Detailed story at 02:51–04:57]

Science of Epigenetics

Mechanisms of Transmission:
Traumatic experiences cause chemical changes—specifically, "epigenetic tags"—that affix to DNA and alter gene expression, sometimes for generations.

"Trauma … causes a chemical change in our DNA, and this changes how our genes function sometimes for generations." – Mark Wolynn (05:18)
Why Trauma Repeats:
Trauma often stays in family systems when stories are silenced, events are left unresolved, or individuals are excluded or stigmatized.

"What I found, what seems to anchor these traumas…is when the traumas aren't talked about or the healing is incomplete." – Mark Wolynn (09:53)

Unconscious Loyalty & Family Patterns

Not all trauma inheritance is strictly epigenetic—sometimes it’s a psychological pattern called "unconscious loyalty":

"There's something else…called unconscious loyalty. So…we’ll seem to finish [the trauma cycle]…even Carl Jung talked about this…" – Mark Wolynn (07:39)

Collective Trauma

Discusses how collective historical traumas—such as the enslavement of African Americans—create lasting trauma signatures in entire populations.

"We call that collective trauma…when there’s something that happens to a people, for instance, people who are enslaved." – Mark Wolynn (18:06)
[Discussion on collective trauma and inheritance 17:36–19:39]

Why Siblings Experience Trauma Differently

Genetic Randomness:
Heritage is "lumpy," and siblings can inherit different amounts of trauma, resilience, or behavioral tendencies.

"You’re not necessarily half your mom, half your dad... inheritance is incredibly lumpy..." – Richard Jacobs (19:39) "You’ve got to look at why one sibling seems to have escaped the burden… and the next sibling suffers deeply." – Mark Wolynn (20:32)

Attachment Trauma vs. Generational Trauma

Attachment Trauma:
Relationship disruptions—like an absent, neglectful, or emotionally unavailable parent—create deep vulnerabilities, which can look similar to generational trauma but stem from early-life experiences.

"When we didn’t feel seen or known or soothed by our mother, that’s a big T trauma…" – Mark Wolynn (24:55, 25:37) "A break in the bond with our mom is often felt as a break in the bond with ourselves." – Mark Wolynn (25:37)

Recognizing & Breaking Patterns

Investigative Questions:
Wolynn urges listeners to ask family members about pregnancy, early childhood, and major life events, as clues to personal struggles often lie there.

"Ask your parents what happened…Ask her what happened when you were little, how she was feeling when you were in the womb." – Mark Wolynn (13:41)

The Role of Science: New Epigenetic Findings

New studies (e.g., 2025 research on Syrian refugees and Brazilian mothers) demonstrate measurable epigenetic markers of trauma across three generations.

"They can find epigenetic changes, in this case DNA changes in DNA methylation, that are found in grandmothers, then their daughters, and then their infants." – Mark Wolynn (15:51)

Healing Pathways

Even Without Family Answers:
Healing is possible even if family members have passed away or details are missing; trauma "lives in our trauma language," behaviors, relationship struggles, or recurring life patterns.

"This information lives inside us… It's in our unexplained symptoms." – Mark Wolynn (27:34)
Forgiveness & Neutrality:
Wolynn advocates for achieving emotional neutrality and reducing "charge" around family issues as a sign of healing—not just conscious forgiveness.

"It's always a good idea to have no emotional charge around something, to be neutral." – Mark Wolynn (30:20)
Concrete Healing Tools:
The new edition of It Didn’t Start with You is accompanied by a workbook with step-by-step guidance for self-inquiry and generational exploration.

"I wrote a book, the official It Didn’t Start with You Workbook… I walk step by step with whoever’s reading it..." – Mark Wolynn (28:44)

The Positive Side: Inheriting Strengths and Healing Signatures

Epigenetic Resilience:
New science (and practical exercises) can help "offset" trauma and reshape not only our experiences but also the inheritance for our children.

"Once we have positive experiences that can offset the traumas…the epigenetic signature disappears." – Mark Wolynn (36:42)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the burden and mystery of family patterns:

"It’s a weird and...strange thing... We would joke, like, you know, she’d be near the end and... 'The reason I don't like lemons is...' and then she would, you know, pass... She never told us. It’s just a strange thing that had to come from somewhere." – Richard Jacobs (12:13)
On “unconscious loyalty”:

"People will repeat aspects of trauma if somebody’s been excluded, rejected, or something so painful happened that nobody will talk about it." – Mark Wolynn (08:22)
On hope for healing:

"We can change the way our DNA expresses. So the whole last third of the book is how we heal and how we have these positive experiences that can change our brain." – Mark Wolynn (36:43)

Important Timestamps

[01:28] – Mark’s introduction to inherited family trauma and its unseen impact.
[02:51] – The boy with burning sensations: generational trauma case.
[05:17] – How trauma creates epigenetic changes.
[07:39] – Discussion of unconscious loyalty and non-epigenetic repetition.
[09:53] – Why unresolved trauma ingrains itself in future generations.
[12:13] – Example of unexplained family preferences and gaps in family stories.
[15:51] – New epigenetic research findings.
[18:06] – The concept of collective trauma in African American communities.
[19:39] – Genetics, inheritance, and uneven distribution of traits.
[24:55–25:37] – Attachment trauma’s lifelong impact.
[27:34] – Navigating healing when information is lost.
[30:20] – The role of neutrality and forgiveness in healing.
[36:42] – Epigenetic signatures can be erased by positive experiences.

Further Resources

Books by Mark Wolynn:
- It Didn’t Start with You (Updated/2026 Edition)
  (Look for the revised edition with a circle in the top left indicating it's updated)
- Official It Didn’t Start with You Workbook
Website & Training:
- markwolynn.com – Online training, resources, clinical guidance.

Conclusion

Mark Wolynn’s insights offer both a sobering and hopeful perspective on how family trauma operates beneath the surface and how careful inquiry, scientific understanding, and practical healing work can break cycles that shape lives for generations. Readers and listeners are encouraged to investigate their own family stories—not just for curiosity’s sake, but as a path to healing, freedom, and resilience.

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Transcript64 lines

[00:01]
A
You're listening to the Good Question podcast with Richard Jacobs. Our goal is to make each of our guests exclaim, hmm, that's a good question. I don't know the answer. Because when that happens, it means you, the listener, may be inspired to learn more beyond the interview and to ask great questions yourself that lead to new insights. In this podcast, we cover historical and current anthropology, comparative religion, and history. Welcome. And let's get started.
[00:36]
B
Hello, this is Richard Jacobs with the Good Question podcast. I've got a great guest, Mark Woolen. He wrote a book called It Didn't Start with youh. He's just recently updated it. We're doing this call April 2026. So if you are interested in this book, which I think is fantastic, look for the new version. It has a circle in the top left of the COVID that has been revised and updated. And he also has a workbook, so I just want to mention that. But, you know, welcome, Mark. Thanks for coming.
[01:02]
C
Thank you for having me, Richard. I'm glad be here.
[01:04]
B
Yeah. So your book is about intergenerational trauma. And I guess culturally, you know, of course, I'm sure everyone's heard, like, oh, you're. You're just like your mother. You're just like your brother, you know, or, oh, you, you. You know, you have the eyes of your grandfather, those kind of things. And I think a lot of times they throw away lines. But it sounds like in your whole investigation, in your book, like, the picture is very different. So maybe, like, get a little bit of background on yourself and, and how you came to write the book.
[01:28]
C
Okay, so let. Let me talk about what in here, because it's not. Everybody's aware of what inherited family is. So we've got. We've got a regular life. You know, our life is on track. We've ticked off all the boxes. We've done all the right things. Good college, good job, maybe even married the right partner. But every morning we wake up and we feel incredibly alone, or we're struggling with panic attacks or a grief that we can't explain. And the answer could lie in a trauma that happened to one of our parents or grandparents or maybe even a great grandparent. So let's take, for example, our parents, maybe our grandmother or grandfather died when they were young, or our mother or father was sent away to live with relatives or placed in foster care, or one of their siblings died tragically. So something like this can devastate a family, as we know. But the reaction to the trauma doesn't necessarily stop with the people who experienced it. So the feelings and sensations, specifically the stress response, the way our genes express this, can pass forward to the children and the grandchildren, affecting them in a similar way, even though they didn't personally experience the trauma.
[02:44]
B
Yeah, that's, that's odd. So what would be an example, like what's a striking example of this that is either in the book or not in the book that you've experienced or seen?
[02:51]
C
Yeah, no, that's, that's. I just put the new book together and I put some of my favorite cases in the last 10 years in the, in the new book. I'll, I'll tell you one. So a mom calls me to work with her 16 year old boy who a rare neurological disorder. So when he was 10, he began experiencing intense burning, burnout sensations on his skin. And the doctors couldn't figure out what was happening. They couldn't find any root cause. You know, they called it an idiopathic neurological condition, which means they have no clue where it comes from. So I'm speaking to his mom and I go, okay, tell me about his dad. You know, it's my first question because it's the first boy in the family and often that links to a trauma with the father. And she tells me a story, story about a trauma his father experienced. When the father was a 10 year old boy, he was playing with matches and accidentally set the garage on fire. And then the house catches fire and the house burns down. And the father, who's a 10 year old boy, gets his mother out, but he can't get his brother out. His brother dies in the fire and then the father, 10 year old boy, all the way up to 50 years old, never forgives himself. And because the trauma remains unhealed, unresolved, the man's son in the next generation begins expressing symptoms, burning sensations on his skin at the same age the father was. And the family never makes this connection. So after working with the family, I had the father tell the son about what happened to him and what happened to his brother and how much he missed his brother and how guilty he felt. And after, you know, bringing this to light, the boy's burning sensations went away. I want to, I want to be clear that not always by telling the story do we heal. Often it takes trauma work. You know, we have to go in and work with fight, flight, freeze responses. But this was a case where just knowing what happened and the father, you know, there's a crying, he's telling his son about the story, showing pictures of his brother, the symptoms subsided.
[04:58]
B
What do you think is happening? Like, I, you know, I don't know your background, but do you think there's like epigenetic change in the person that experiences a trauma and that somehow is inherited, you know, one or two generations later and that's why people have this intergenerational trauma? Like, how else could this happen besides cellular memory or genetic memory?
[05:17]
C
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, when a trauma happens, you know, trauma in this generation does, you know, it changes us. Literally. It causes a chemical change in our DNA and this changes how our genes function sometimes for generations, which is what we're talking about here. So technically, trauma happens and then there's chemical signals in our cells, what they call chemical tags or epigenetic tags that attach to the DNA and tell our cel use or ignore certain genes so we can better deal with this thing that just happened, this trauma. And then the way our genes express, the way our genes are affected can change how we act or how we feel. For example, we can become sensitive or reactive to situations that are similar to the original trauma. And if it's generational, even if that trauma occurred in a past generation, so that we have a better chance of surviving it in this generation. And that's the problem. So, for example, if our grandparents came from a war torn country, so people are being shot, bombs are going off, just like what's happening now, Uniformed men are lining people up in the street or up in, you know, in the square, and people are being taken away. Our grandparents would develop and pass forward a skill set, let's say in this case it could be positive things. Sharper reflexes, quicker reaction times, reactions to the violence to help them survive that trauma that they just experienced. But here's the problem. What they're passing forward is a stress response almost with the dials set to 10. So the next generations are prepared for this war and war never arrives. And then we, we're those grandchildren. You know, we don't make the link that our anxiety, our hyper vigilance, our depression or is connected to our parents or grandparents. We just think we're wired this way. And this is what, you know, this is what prompted me to write the.
[07:16]
A
Yeah.
[07:16]
B
When I was reading the book, stories about my uncle who I never met came to mind. You know, my mom would say, like, oh, he was this way and that way. And you know, I just, I look like him and my personality to him is very similar. And the interactions I have with like, you know, my older people in my family are similar too. So it's weird. It's in a way I'm like, I guess reliving parts of his life. It feels like it's very, very odd to think about that, you know.
[07:39]
C
Well, you know, that could be really possible. So that might even out not be epigenetics. You know, epigenetics is just one explanation. There's something else that we've, we look at and it's called unconscious loyalty. So we will, we will seem to finish. You know, even Carl Jung talked about this, that there was this unfinished business in the family that he seemed to feel, I quote that in the book that he felt he had to complete. But, but, you know, if we're talking about epigenetics, it's memories of these traumas are imprinted in our parents and grandparents, sperm cells and egg cel. And somehow this information passes forward to us. And as a result, we're born with an altered brain. Fight, flight, freeze responses that are preparing us biologically to cope with these traumas similar to the ones they experienced. So again, like this trauma happens and then information rich molecules would be a way, I could say it will latch onto our DNA and they'll act like dimmer switches controlling sections of the DNA, you know, which get used and which do not. In other words, which genes get turned on and which genes get turned off. But then there's this other thing that you just brought up about uncles and victims and perpetrators in the family that people will, that is not epigenetics, that people will tend to repeat aspects of a trauma, particularly if somebody's been excluded, rejected, people feel ashamed of this person, people are embarrassed of this person or something so painful happened nobody will talk about it. Or if there's perpetrators in the family that have done terrible things to members of our family or victims, victims in our family who've had terrible things happen to them, the next generation or the generation after that can be born reliving or enacting behaviors that are similar to the people that have been excluded. If that makes sense.
[09:36]
B
Yeah, it's just amazing to think about how do you avoid blame? You know, some people, you know, you know, some people can never take responsibility for anything. I'm sure there's a subset of people that are like, see, it was a grandmother and they did this to me. And that's why I am the way that I am. Do you know that you run into that and what do you do?
[09:53]
C
Well, see, what you're bringing up is perfect because when people don't keep their hearts open, let's say when people don't do their inner work. When people go into blame or feel, you know, shame, embarrassment, grief, rage, pain, you know, this is what creates. Let me say it a different way. This is what can contribute to this generational reliving, this. This generational repeating. So people always ask me that. They say, why do traumas repeat? You know, I see that you every. Most people have trauma in their family history, but not everyone manifests inherited family trauma. Why do some people seem to relive and others don't? And, you know, I would say right off the bat, epigenetics is only one piece of the puzzle. But, you know, there's another piece. What I found, what seems to anchor these traumas, what creates or contributes to people repeating or these repetitions, is when the traumas aren't talked about or the healing is incomplete because the pain or the grief is too great, or the people, our family system are excluded or rejected, basically, there's not been any resolution. Then aspects of these traumas can show up in later generations and unconsciously will repeat the pattern or share a similar misfortune or a similar unhappiness until that trauma finally has a chance to heal. For Freud, he observed. He observed this over a hundred years ago. So he called it repetition compulsion, that the trauma is merely seeking an opportunity for a better outcome so it can resolve, so it can heal. I would say it. I would add to that. I'd say that the contraction, contraction, the tight, fight, flight, freeze, the contraction of the trauma is ultimately looking for its expansion. And it'll repeat in a family until that expansion happens.
[11:46]
B
Yeah, you know, it's just. Yeah, it's odd. Like, you know, my mom has passed away, but she. She never liked fruit. And we would ask her, and she would, like, I would say, mom, why don't you lay lemons and stuff? And she was like, I don't want to talk about it. I have a headache. You know, that's what. That's what she'd tell me. And she would never tell me what happened.
[12:01]
C
And something could have happened. There could have been a trauma when she's a little girl and there are lemons in the bowl, and she conflates the experience of lemons with what happened. I mean, I don't know. I'm taking a guess here.
[12:13]
B
Right, right, right, right. It's a weird and it's a strange thing, and people, like, laugh and, you know, it's like, silly. But yeah, I remember, like. And she would just never talk about it. And it's funny. My. My wife's like, One time she was going to tell me, but then you made fun of her. And she stops. I'm like, she wasn't going to tell you. We, and my, my brother and I would joke like, you know, she'd be near the end and she's like, the reason I don't like lemons is, is. And then she would, you know, pass again. We would make these jokes, but it turns out she never told us. It's just a strange thing that had to come from somewhere. Yeah, I don't know.
[12:47]
C
She might not even know. That's the problem. That's one of the reasons, you know, I did all this work. Because people are suffering with symptoms that they can't explain and feelings they can't explain that don't come from our life experience. They come from our parents or grandparents life. And so that's why I wrote the book, so people can say, hey, wait a minute, this. There's no context for me feeling this way, but there's certainly a context for my dad feeling this way. And you know, I remember working with a guy whose dad was cheated on by his mom. And six months or so after they got married, and so the guy doesn't understand, but he's married. And within six months he actually, as soon as he gets married, he shuts down physically to his wife, wife saying, you're gonna leave me, you're gonna cheat on me, you're gonna. And she go, no, I love you, I'm not leaving you. You're my man, I'm not leaving you.
[13:39]
B
But he's just married you. Yeah, yeah.
[13:41]
C
He's convinced because he's carrying the, the essence, the aspects of his dad's experience. And so that's why I always tell people, look, ask your parents what happened. Ask your mom what happened when you were little. Ask her what happened, how she was feeling when you were in the womb. Ask her what happened before. You have memory. Age one, age two. When we look at the embryology, the biology, the heartbeat begins within 20 days of conception. And then the neural tube, the neural groove, that which will become our nervous system, is 20 to 30 days. So within the first month we're not cognitive, but within the first month in utero, we're to some degree sentient or somatic. So we may have somatic memory, certainly not cognitive, of our mother feeling trapped and not wanting to marry our dad, or our dad's drinking and she's now feeling complete disappointment or she didn't get enough from her mother, so she's afraid she is not going to be a good mother or she lost the baby before us and she's worried we will die too. So if your moms are alive, please ask her mental state, her emotional state, what she was thinking and feeling when you were in the womb and also all the events that happened in the first few years of life, you know, age 1, 2, 3, 4. Because these are the most important times for neurodevelopment when the brain is being wired for safety or lack of safety. When the brain is being wired for, you know, feeling peaceful or hyper vigilant. And we need to know that. So the, you know, Richard, you read my book, so you know what I did. In this chapter, I'm talking generational. In the next chapter, I'm talking attachment. Next generic chapter, I'm going back to generational. Then I'm going. So it's, it's a dance between these two types of trauma that we don't remember, we don't know.
[15:38]
B
Well, you know, you, whether you're a faith or not. By the way, this, this shows up in the Bible in Exodus, it talk about like the sins, the sins of the father being visited upon the children, grandchildren and maybe even great grandchildren. So I thought that was just before generation mind.
[15:51]
C
Yeah, absolutely. And that's, that's key because just like it says we science shows us, proves to us that we can be affected generationally by these traumas from anywhere from three to five generations. You know, it's interesting. One of the reasons I updated the book is because a lot of new science came out that I didn't have when I wrote the original copy 10 years ago. So in 2025, the, the new, it didn't start with you came out and I put in all the, this amazing work with humans that we didn't have tell you study. So they were able to look at a 2025 study done with Syrian refugees who'd gone through war and they gone through war and they, they're able to discover in the genome the epigenome, the intergenerational epigenetic signature of violence that's embedded in the genome. Specifically, they can find epigenetic changes, in this case DNA changes in DNA methylation that are found in grandmothers, then the their daughters and then their infants. And you know, similar. There's a study that came out of Brazil that women who were experienced, who were exposed to partner violence while they were pregnant with their daughters, all three generations were affected with these epigenetic changes specifically, again, DNA methylation, which is one of the mechanisms of transgenerational epigenetic transformation transfer. What that does is it blocks proteins from attaching to the DNA. And what that does, it suppresses the expression of the DNA. So the DNA, the DNA doesn't change itself. The what changes is how it expresses, how it, how it responds.
[17:36]
B
Yeah, yeah. You know, what's one, one crazy thing that came to mind as I was reading your book is I realized I don't know, I don't know what percentage, but probably 80, maybe 90% of all African Americans in the U.S. for instance, even if they didn't experience slavery, because parents, grandparents, great grandparents probably did that maybe as a, as a type of people, they're all walking around traumatized and they don't know it. Like the entire African American population of the US Easily a majority of it could be affected in this way is what came to my mind.
[18:07]
C
We call that collective trauma. So that's another facet of trauma. When there's something that happens to a people, for instance, people who are enslaved, you know, the next generations could have of experiences, families forced, that were forced to be broken apart, Children that don't get to be raised by their parents, parents that don't get to raise their children. These aspects of these traumas can continue into future generations. You're absolutely right. I mean we, we see this in groups, you know, and we have to wonder, you know, why aren't we also walking around traumatized? Well, guess what? Many of us are car walking around traumatized from the fact that our mother had a, a sister that died in the, you know, eighth month of pregnancy. And then grandma gets pregnant again with our mother and is afraid our mother will die too, in utero. And then there's a broke, break in the bond or we even see these weird connections in the next generation. We lose a baby in a late term pregnancy. See, so it's everywhere. And again, that's what I'm doing. That's, I'm trying to say people, you know, if there's thing, if there's symptoms you can't explain, feelings you can't explain, situations you can't explain, behaviors you can't explain. Let's, let's take a look and do, do a genogram and see what happened. Genogram, which is a family tree and draw it out or let's ask questions and if our parents aren't alive, let's ask our cousins what they, what they heard.
[19:40]
B
You know, I mean when. I don't know what the name of the video is, it was a really good one on YouTube. It's it said like inheritance doesn't happen evenly. The mathematics of it could be very skewed. So like, you know, you're, you're not necessarily half of your mom, half of your dad, and it's much less likely that you're a quarter of each of your grandparents. You could be like, you know, I don't know, 46% like one and.002% like another. So it said like inheritance is incredibly lumpy. You just don't know how. You know, sperm and egg will mix across excessive generations. And perhaps that's why traits will skip a generation or two. And you know, so someone may be like their grandfather or their great grandmother, you know, a material part of it may be like that. They just don't know. That's just how the combination of sperm and egg throughout the generations happened in their family. So it's again, it's not an even inheritance. I have to find a video, but it was really interesting.
[20:33]
C
You know, you've got to look at why one sibling seems to have escaped the burden of inherited trauma and the next next sibling suffers deeply. And then, you know, we have to look at these things. Who inherited what? You're right, it is not even. And then you, you talked about material DNA. So there's two types of DNA. There's the DNA responsible for our physical traits, our body, legs, nose, hair, and then there's something called non coding rna. So what happens is what they find find is that there are changes to this non coding, which they thought used to be junk DNA they would call it. But what happens is the. When there are changes to the levels of non coding rna, what we find is that those people who get more or less. Let me talk about the three common mechanisms because this is important. So what makes this transgenerational, epigenetic, these alterations. So one talked about, which is DNA methylation. And this blocks certain proteins from attaching to the DNA, suppressing its expression. Okay, great. Well, there's another one, histone modification. And this affects the structure and function of the proteins that read the gene. And then what I was just talking about this non coding rna. These levels regulate the ability of the coding RNA to make proteins a bit. But all this means is all 3, 3 affect which genes get turned on. To put it simply, which genes get turned on, which genes get turned off. So getting back to our siblings, we have maybe a balance of the levels of RNA populations, but our sibling does not and thus carries this generational trauma of fear or hypervigilance. So it can be, and I Know, I'm mixing terms, but you know, RNA is replicated from DNA and it functions as a, a messenger that communicates to the cells r produce these proteins. So cells also contain these non coding RNAs that don't produce proteins and instead they piggyback off the messenger RNAs and disrupting or amplifying their function and again increasing or decreasing the production of these proteins which ultimately affect which genes get turned on and which ones get turned off.
[22:57]
B
Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's really amazing. Another thing that came to mind too, but when it goes back to my mom, her, her mother was like a real, real, real bad alcohol and she'd come home and use them and all that. So my mom kind of fractured one way and became like phobic and you know, like meek and a people pleaser. And then my aunt fractured the other way. She became like hardcore, I mean, literally like a lifelong criminal. Just like a tough, mean old person, you know. So also the reaction to trauma seems to. It fractures people along different lines. There's always the same response to it. It seems like, absolutely.
[23:34]
C
And what you're describing are the girls have attachment trauma. So if grandma's an alcoholic and she's not able to give your aunt or your mother what they needed, you're exactly right. One girl, your mother turns into a woman who's meek and a people pleaser because her strategy is be nice, be good, don't rock the boat, don't make waves. And the, and the other daughter's response again to attachment trauma, we're describing, you know, not necessarily generational trauma here. We're describing a mother who couldn't give an enough to her daughters. The other daughter becomes tough as nails. You know, don't mess with me or bite your head off. And again, these are strategies, personality strategies to a trauma of not getting what they needed. Look, when we didn't feel seen or known or soothed by our mother, that's a big T trauma. That's a big T attachment trauma.
[24:29]
B
You gave examples in the book, right, of, you know, a mother would have a baby and then shortly thereafter she would just, you know, distance herself or not really want to take care of it in the way she should and she didn't know why. And it came from, you know, in that case, generational trauma. And one of the examples you gave, it's amazing how it, how you can act out in certain ways and you have no idea where it comes from. It's in. And some of these ways are incredibly strong and Life altering. It's just, I was just, I was amazed when I read the book. It was just really crazy, you know,
[24:56]
C
thank you for reading it, Richard. You know, and again, you know, I just, I want to tell people what I tried to do in the book. Here is I'm not. Even though I'm known as the generational guy, that, that's what I did. I wrote this book. It's a best seller, sold 3 million copies. But the truth is, more people will express attachment trauma than generational trauma, even though it's massively important to look at generational trauma. But, you know, most, most of us have stopped trusting that we can receive from our mother. And we either shut down to our mother or we tried to take care of our, our mother's feelings. You know, the strategy was if I make my mom feel okay, then I'll be okay.
[25:37]
A
Okay.
[25:37]
C
But many of us have a break in the bond with her. So when we have a break in the bond, it really is a challenge to feel safe and secure in life. Because when that connection to the mother is cut off, either physically or emotionally, we have difficulty trusting the feeling of who we are inside because our inner experience of ourself is dependent on our mother's attunement, on our mother's attention. So I always say that a break in the bond with our mom is often felt as a break in the bond with ourselves. So we then become cut off from our core, cut off from our gut feelings. And now we have anxiety and terror and panic and fight flight, freeze responses, reactivity to situations that feel scary, like our early relationship with our mom. So like you were telling me, your mom becomes a people pleaser. Well, that's one set of be a good child, please your parents, do well in school, be efficient, be capable, be self sufficient. You know, be a gift. Give her, take care of mom. She's bad off, She's a drinker. But. But then the other response is to become withdrawn, untrusting, hyper vigilant, you know, like the aunt. So, you know, I love that you brought that up. Not, I mean, I mean, I'm sorry that it was difficult, but I like that you brought it up because it really. She lets me teach about the aspects of these breaks in the bonds and how we can become untrusting and therefore we become a people pleaser or untrusting or. And then therefore we come, we become a bond bear.
[27:12]
B
So either way, yeah, it's weird. What happens if you're experiencing, I don't know, just unusual things and, you know, do you read your book? But the people that could have caused us to feel this way intergenerationally, they're passed away or maybe nothing's even known about them. You know, how do you resolve this trauma? Like, who do you cry out to, to, to resolve it for you? How do you, you know, how do you deal with it?
[27:35]
C
That. See, that's a lot of times our parents are gone or they won't talk rock. And we are struggling, but we can't get the answers or we're adopted. So I always say that this information lives inside us. It's in our trauma language. You know, when I wrote the book, I talk a lot about something called core language, which is the things that we say or the ways that we act. It's a language, it's verbal, but it also lives in our fears. It's in our unexplained symptoms. It's in our self destructive or self sabotaging behavior behaviors. It's in the symptoms of an illness that appear after an unsettling event. That's information. That's a clue. Okay, I had an event and I had this event at 20. And then after that I changed. And now that tells a lot. Did somebody at age 20ish? 20, 19, 20, 21 in your family go through something or tell me about the event that happened and how that is like an alarm clock bringing you back to an earlier rejection. So you got rejected and now the taking you to that break in the attachment with your mom. And then you have to look at that. You also see this in our relationship struggles or the repeated ways we deal with money and success. All this is a breadcrumb trail that if we follow it, even if we don't have the information, we don't need it. It's right there. So, you know, that's what, that's what I do with people. I, you know, let's, let's see what's going on inside you in the book. And here's how, how we work with it, here's how we heal that. That's actually, you know, I was telling you before we started about the workbook. I, I wrote a book, the official it didn't start with you workbook, just so people could work with me where I walk step by step with who's ever reading it. And I'm asking the right questions so you can link what you're feeling, what you're experiencing, to the traumas either in your family history or the traumas when you were small and had no memory. And it goes really deep. In fact, I was, I was wr. I was. I would have my wife on the do these practices and to the level that she would be crying or experiencing deep relief or release was. I go, okay, that one's a keeper. So, yeah, it's a pretty good book.
[29:52]
B
Is there a component of forgiveness that's necessary? Like, you know, let's say I got something from my grandfather. I had no idea. I mean, he certainly had no idea. Let's say, you know, he made me into a. Whatever. You know, I can't. I can never love somebody or something. Do I have to as part of the therapy? Like, even if I don't know where it came from, like forgive, forgive. You know who it was in my ancestry that may have given me this, because again, he certainly had no idea they would be doing it. And I'm sure they would. Would feel bad about it. But is that part of the healing? Is that required?
[30:21]
C
If you're asking me, it's always a good idea to have no emotional charge around something, to be neutral. So, you know, the more work we do inside, the less charge we have. So, for example, people say, hey, Mark, well, you know, my parent was terrible and they did this, and they did this, this. And I say, yeah, you need to have some disconnect while you work on yourself because if you try to have a relationship now and you're still shrinking or collapsing or going into caretaking mode, you're not ready to have that relationship. But then I also say this, that here, when we reject a parent, there are three ways that rejection operates unconsciously, Richard, inside us. The first way we'll unconsciously reject aspects of ourselves self we can't see when we're the same because we've disowned that behavior in ourselves. And. And then that behavior is expressing unconsciously. For example, our mother was cold. And we say, I'll never be cold. But we often are cold because if we didn't get enough, we often can't give enough. And then. But we can't see it in ourselves. So that's the first way. Or the second way is we'll pull in a partner who treats us coldly and. Or, you know, so we, you know, again, another chance to heal that drama is now we pulled in a cold part, but then there's something else we do, Richard. We'll pull in a nice partner but see them as cold. And we could ruin the relationship because we're overlaying that experience with our mom or dad onto that partner. And then there's a third way that that rejection operates inside us, you know, we'll treat ourselves, the child, part of us, our inner child, the way we feel we were treated. So if our parents couldn't be gentle with us, we'll have difficulty being gentle with that child inside us. We'll do ourselves what we believe was done to us. So if our parents were critical or aggressive, we can become self critical or inwardly aggressive. If our parents. If our parents ignored us or they were distant, we can be distant and ignore that inner child. So I want to say that.
[32:29]
B
I want to say that also I would say when. When we finished the story. My mom's side of the family, they had a lot of problems. Like, I think four. So my uncle, my aunt, two of my cousins, I don't even know who el. All have been involved in a lot of violence. You know, they've killed people or they've dealt drugs or, you know, all kinds of stuff. Some, you know, I'm telling my. My youngest all this and she's like, I don't want to meet that side of the family. They're murderers. I guess you're right. You know, Whoops.
[32:56]
C
So, but Richard, we look upstream. So, all right, so we're looking at the cousins. And what do the cousins share with you? A mother.
[33:05]
B
The mother. Yeah, mother.
[33:06]
C
Okay, so. So great. So now we know, like, now that this is a great example because we know mother's mother drank heavily, she was an alcoholic. And now, well, so we know that she wasn't able to shine the light of constancy, of consistency on her kid. So that creates, as I said, I break in the bond with themselves. Mom becomes pleaser, the aunt becomes mean as a snake. And so, but. But we also have to look at grandpa, and then we have to look at grandmother's mother and father. Father. And we have to look. Did anybody take a life? Did anybody feel responsible for someone's death? Did anybody knowingly or unknowingly hurt somebody? Because if we're seeing these repetitions, yes, it can come from break, a break in the attachment, but it can also come from events that nobody wants to talk about. So we look upstream. But it was a really good example that you brought that up about a side of the family, because we all have that.
[34:02]
B
Yeah, it's weird how it happened. Yeah. So what. What work will. Will be coming from this point? You know, now that the book's been out, now that's been revised, what do you. Are you counseling people or what. What works going on with you?
[34:16]
C
Yeah, I. I do. I work with as many people as possible. But, you know, I can't work with all that many because I'm writing the next book now. So my new book is about breaks in the attachment and how we heal them in ourselves. How we heal them in our relationship with our partner, if we have one. And then how we help our children who have breaks in the attachment with their mom. How, how a mom can help her daughter or son heal when she knows there was a break. The kid was in an incubator.
[34:46]
B
I see what you mean. Or like, you know, a father that has to work all the time and they never see their sons or daughters.
[34:53]
C
Let's say the parents divorced early, so on a vacation or mom had to go in the hospital. So these breaks in the attachment need to heal so they don't keep, keep going down the line downstream.
[35:02]
B
Okay, so that's what the newest book's going to be about. That's excellent.
[35:05]
C
Yeah, I did it in these books, too. But I'm just going to go deeper and deeper. That's what I do mean. I get on a topic. I'm like a dog with a bone. And so I revised, you know, it didn't start with you to bring it up to date. And I talk a lot about attachment now to heal it and how to spot it. And that's what I did in the workbook. And now I'm going to go deeper in a new book. So it's like, I don't quit.
[35:26]
B
Well, I was joking with you offline. You know, first we have it didn't start with you. And then the sequel will be like, I'm going to finish this no matter what.
[35:34]
C
That's the title? Yeah, that's the title. I'm, you know, it's, you know, basically I have a title that I'm working on with, but I'm not going to say it just in case somebody gets locked on that title. I'm working with some. But yeah, no, I, I, I can't help but do what I do. You know, I see a problem and I, I write about it and I try to make it clear. And then I give solutions that I know work because I've been doing this for 35 years. So.
[36:00]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
[36:00]
C
So, yeah.
[36:01]
B
One last thing. So what do you, are you spending, you know, besides writing, are you spending your time doing a lot of clinical work? Like, are you advising individual people and counseling them?
[36:10]
C
Yeah, yeah, I, I advise lots of students. I also play lead guitar in a band. So it's like I'm not all work, but yeah, no, I do a lot of clinical work. I do a lot of teaching and a lot of supervision. I have a training, an online training that people who want to learn my work, they don't even have to be clinicians if they want to dive into their own families. And it's a good training. It's right on my website. Markwell Lynn.com.
[36:35]
B
yeah, what about, what about positive things? Yeah, you know, all this is negative. What are positive things? Inherited and.
[36:41]
C
Yeah, very much.
[36:42]
B
How strongly negative?
[36:44]
C
Well, see, that's another reason I wrote the new book, because they, they're showing also that once we have positive experiences that can offset the traumas, that the epigenetic signature disappears. In other words, we can change the way our DNA expresses. So the whole last third of the book is how we heal and how we have these positive experiences that can change our brain and create new neural pathways and stimulate the release of feel good neurotransmitters or feel good hormones. You know, the main thing is we've got to change the way our brains responding to stress and the way our DNA is expressing. And then when we do that, which is what I teach in the book, then we're freer. Our kids are freer and then their kids are freer.
[37:32]
B
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So, yeah, very good. So to get people started, they should look for, you know, it didn't start with you. And again, on the COVID of the book, the top, the left you showed me, there's a circle now that, you know, talks about updated info. So that would be the one that they should get. Is that correct?
[37:48]
C
I think that's the only one you can find now that the only one that's out there is the fully revised and updated version of it didn't start with you, so it's on Amazon or your favorite bookseller. It's the only one that's sold. And then if you want to go deep, if you're the type of person that really likes to go into your inner work, definitely do the workbook.
[38:08]
B
And I would advise people to read it. I mean, it's not just going to inform you, it's probably going to shock you like that. That's what I felt when I read the book. I was like, wow, this is crazy. It was really interesting, but it was just like it amazed me. So I think that, yeah, I just want to give it like, I don't know, as many thumbs up as I can. But it's a really great book and I think every person listening should listen to it. Or read it. Because like I said, you'll. You'll probably be really surprised when you read it. You'll. Your eyes will open and people you know in your family, you'll see them in a different light, I think.
[38:36]
C
Thank you. Yeah, it's how I feel. I mean, I feel the same way. You write, you read it and everything looks, movies look different, TV looks different because you start seeing the generational elements to characters. And you, you know, first of all, you know, it's not just going to change how you experience Netflix or, or where you watch your movies, but it's really going to light up what happened in your family and have you look at things differently. Like, oh, no wonder my grandmom was that way. Look at happened to her. Or no wonder my grand dad lost all his income. He lost all his money. Wow. Because he received an unjust inheritance from the grandparents. So I have this whole section on success and failure. You know, why we. That's, that's one of the later chapters in the book of why we can hold on to what we make and how we cannot hold on to what we make, how we're able to be successful and how we're not able to be successful. And then I have a chapter on relationships too. So yeah, it changes how you look at things, for sure.
[39:37]
B
Excellent. Omar. It's been awesome to talk to you. Thanks for being so open and for coming on the podcast and. Is it Ankur? I can't encourage people enough to read the book, so. Looking forward to your future works too. And thanks for coming.
[39:48]
C
Thank you for having me, Richard. I appreciate it.
[39:51]
B
If you like this podcast, please click the link in the description to subscribe and review us on itunes.
[39:58]
A
Thank you for listening to the Good Question podcast. Please email support@thegoodquestionpodcast.com if you have any referrals to great guests for us to interview, visit thegoodquestionpodcast.com to hear more interviews. And please help us spread the word by rating and reviewing us on Apple podcasts, iTunes, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you listen to this podcast.

Breaking Generational Patterns Mark Wolynn On Family Trauma, Epigenetics & Emotional Healing

Breaking Generational Patterns Mark Wolynn On Family Trauma, Epigenetics & Emotional Healing

The Good Question Podcast

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

What is Intergenerational Trauma?

Real-Life Case Study: The Burning Sensation

Science of Epigenetics

Unconscious Loyalty & Family Patterns

Collective Trauma

Why Siblings Experience Trauma Differently

Attachment Trauma vs. Generational Trauma

Recognizing & Breaking Patterns

The Role of Science: New Epigenetic Findings

Healing Pathways

The Positive Side: Inheriting Strengths and Healing Signatures

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Important Timestamps

Further Resources

Conclusion

The Good Question Podcast

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

What is Intergenerational Trauma?

Real-Life Case Study: The Burning Sensation

Science of Epigenetics

Unconscious Loyalty & Family Patterns

Collective Trauma

Why Siblings Experience Trauma Differently

Attachment Trauma vs. Generational Trauma

Recognizing & Breaking Patterns

The Role of Science: New Epigenetic Findings

Healing Pathways

The Positive Side: Inheriting Strengths and Healing Signatures

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Important Timestamps

Further Resources

Conclusion