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The Good Question Podcast
Buy Smart, Build Smarter Jonathan Wolk On Real Estate, Architecture & Design-Build Strategy
00:31:19
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- [00:01]
A
You're listening to the Good Question podcast with Richard Jacobs. Our goal is to make each of our guests exclaim, hmm, that's a good question. I don't know the answer. Because when that happens, it means you, the listener, may be inspired to learn more beyond the interview and to ask great questions yourself that lead to new insights. In this podcast, we cover historical and current anthropology, comparative religion and history. Welcome. And let's get started.
- [00:36]
B
Hello, this is Richard Jacobs with the Viewed Question podcast. My guest today is Jonathan Wolk. He's a member of the American Institute of Architects. He's a licensed architect, contractor, and a real estate broker. And he's going to talk about how to find and transform property when inventory is scarce. So I think this might be a very interesting call. I was joking with him about repurposing, like, a nuclear silo into a house or a shipping container, but it may not be far off. So you so welcome, Jonathan.
- [01:01]
C
Thank you so much for having me.
- [01:02]
B
Yeah. Well, tell me about, you know, how you changed from or you moved beyond just architecture into thinking this way.
- [01:08]
C
Well, yeah, so the title is very apropos and is exactly what we do because I'm in the Raleigh, North Carolina Triangle Market, and we have consistently had high demand with low supply, particularly in the residential market. But this model basically works for commercial properties. And as probably a lot of your listeners have seen the transformation of, like, old hotels or motels into apartments. And, you know, it's a lot about, you know, finding something and then how do you convert it and be creative about converting it or expanding it or repositioning it because there's so much demand and so little supply or the market or the area shifts or changes. And so we were, I started as an architect, wanted to be an architect since I was, you know, a kid, used to draw house plans and do things like that, Lego girders and panels, if anybody remembers those, and of course, Lincoln Logs, those things. And, and then I always liked the building part of it. And so as I, in the process of becoming an architect, always was building stuff and then sold my architectural practice at that time and then went and worked for a large contractor, got the understanding and knowledge and sort of seeing behind the curtain, if you will, and got my contractor's license, became an unlimited license contractor. So we can, we can, you know, we build residential, we can build high rise. And all throughout my career, I always partnered, well with the, with the subcontractors and the builders and understanding, you know, some of the specifics of what's needed and that is one of the big issues is a lot of architects don't know necessarily how to build or the process of building. And so that's really what I want to hone in on and be an architect led design build firm. Then as more and more in that realized that we really needed to be there even earlier, we need to be there when, when you're looking at the property, whether it's land or whether it's converting, like you said, an old nissle silo into residential or, or you know, just wanting to do a house addition or renovation or a building, you know, conversion or adaptive reuse, what can you do? What can you do with the property? Can you do what you want to do? And understanding that from a high level. And so what we, we really got into getting there and partnering with a lot estate agents and brokers and being there when you're actually touring the property with the potential buyer to go through the pros and cons and you know, okay, you may want to do this, but can you or what's the hurdles to do it? What's the cost to do it? Is this the best fit for it? And so that's really where the concept of Wool360 came from, is being able to handle the process full circle. And so what really started driving that was even pre Covid, but during COVID you know, the market went crazy. And so let's say you're looking for a million million house and you're constantly getting outbid or you can't, you know, you can't compete or you get there too late. And people were getting 10 and 12 offers on these houses, the site unseen and things like that. So we developed a model where rather than competing at the million dollar house, why don't you find the location that you like? So in particular here, downtown Raleigh, you have a lot of different opportunities and so a lot of people want to be downtown. And so it's like, okay, well let's go find you a four or five hundred thousand dollars house. Let's see if we can modify through additions and renovations and put another, you know, four or five hundred thousand dollars into the renovation edition of it. And you basically have at the end of the day a custom home that is the million dollar home that you wanted and in the location that you want. And so that's been our model and that's really been a creative way. There's several others, but it's been a creative way to be able to get what you want in the location you want. And thinking through it a little bit different.
- [04:55]
B
Yeah, it's funny, like, a friend of mine asked me what my ideal was, so I told him I like to downtown, you know, like a one acre property with like 40 foot high walls with barbed wire, you know, and at a gate that you come in and out of and when you leave the property, you're right downtown. So he's like, oh, it sounds like a dictator's palace. I was like, yeah, I guess so. But just more practically like I'm, I'm in Austin, Texas and now they, they're talking about redoing the zoning to allow for ADUs, like accessory dwelling units.
- [05:22]
C
Yeah.
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B
And I know some people do tiny homes on their property. So is, is zoning the king of all this? Like where, where do you start with a property and analyzing?
- [05:30]
C
Yeah. So you know, R.A. austin are very parallel in a lot of the development and technology and stuff like that. And so Raleigh just initiated that a few years ago. And at the time they're calling, you know, they used to be called like granny flats and then ADUs and you know, the missing middle and you know, things of that nature. And so yeah, it really, it really is all about the zoning and what, you know, what's allowed. And so a lot of the issues that tie into that are, you know, how big can that ADU be? What's the definition of a tiny home? Different communities have different definitions. It, sometimes it's a percentage of the, of the main house square footage. Sometimes it's, it's maxed out by zoning, you know, some 5, 600 square feet. Sometimes it's impervious area setbacks. There's so many different things that, that come into play within the jurisdiction. And that's kind of what makes it difficult as well because we get calls all the time, hey, I want to put an ADU in my backyard. And I see you did one and I like what you did there. Well, just because we did it in one community doesn't mean it's allowed in that community. Or we can do the same thing. The other complication with ADUs and tiny houses is they see these kits and some of them are great and they see this kit and they can buy this tiny home for $40,000. And they're like, great, I can put a, I can afford to do a $40,000 tiny home. And it's like, yeah, but that's just that, that's just the kit or the, or that package. You've got to, you've got to get it there. You've got to build A foundation. You've got to add sewer and water, and you might have to add mechanical. You know, what does that kit really include? Does it have all the finishes and fixtures and lighting? And so really understanding all of those costs and not buying into just what you see on the website, that's the devil's in the details, so to speak. And then can you put that on your property? Can you get it onto your property? Just because you. Okay, let's say you answer all those questions. Can you get it there and get it back there and you know, delivered there? Do you need a crane or a truck or how do you, how do you position it into place? And so there's so many issues that go into that. It's a great solution, it's a great option. But truly understanding the cost and what's required, that comes back to the whole Premise of the Wolf360, is that how do you understand what you're doing before you say bought that kit or even bought that house? You might be looking at that house and go, hey, this would be a great house. I can put an ADU back there for my mother in law, yada yada yada, and you buy it and then you find out, oh, I can't put it there because the HOA doesn't allow it, or the zoning in that neighborhood doesn't allow it or whatever the case may be. So really getting there and understanding what you can and can't do is the critical first step. And what we try to do is help people before they've made that acquisition. They spend a. They spend a little bit of money on some due diligence, but they're not necessarily making a $40,000 mistake buying that package and then all of a sudden realizing that they can't use it or can't install it. And that's probably to be ahead of the curve on all that.
- [08:29]
B
Yeah. So due diligence is like. Well, like a site survey, zoning, maybe even architectural plans and submitting to the city to see if they're cool with it or what.
- [08:38]
C
Yeah, well, it's a lot of different steps. So you can do like a very high level approach, just kind of a quick high level analysis. Yeah. Does, you know, does the neighborhood allow it? Does zoning allow it? Does. Do you have enough property to do it? Do you have enough capacity in your electrical panel to add another house worth of electrical? Or is your panel maxed out and now you've got to expand your electrical panel? Will the power company allow you to do that? Or do you have to separately meter that adu. You know, there's so many issues and as you answer each question, you move to the next step. And so there's always hurdles and hiccups and things like that. But you want to try to understand, at least at a high level what some of those issues are going to entail and, and the further you can understand and, and know before, you know, you minimize your risk. And that's really what we try to help lead our clients through that decision making process, really.
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B
Misconceptions, how long it takes to build, how much can that vary?
- [09:41]
C
Oh yeah, I was just meeting with a client this morning. I said it's going to cost more than you think and it's going to take longer than you think. The biggest misconception, especially when we're talking about this kind of stuff, is, well, my neighbor did it or I drove past, you know, down the street, they did it. And that just because they did it, you know, a, you don't know if they did it legitimately. You don't know what the zoning in so many cases changes, you know, across the street or by neighbor. They could be in a different community and under different HOA guidelines. I would say the number one misconception in all projects is that, oh, well, they did it, so I should be allowed to do it. That's never just, you know, or we're grandfathered in. Well, you know, in a lot of these communities, just like you were talking about in Austin, changing, you know, zoning in a lot of these communities, grandpa's dead. Grandfathering in doesn't necessarily work anymore. And the communities have gotten savvy to that. And with technology like goog Earth and all that sort of stuff, they can, they can look and see, they can pull up aerial photos of your property from 15, 20 years ago and be like, oh no, that, that parking lot wasn't there when the house was built. You just put that in a few years ago. So that, and that wasn't permitted. That's not allowed. So there's so many things that can now be fact checked on what was there and what it was used and what it was done initially to determine whether you can do what you can do. And so the really, the biggest misconception is just because somebody did it on their property does not necessarily mean you can do it on yours.
- [11:14]
B
You must be a very patient person and are paid very well to deal all this because this is like, sounds just like a gigantic pain in the ass.
- [11:21]
C
Well, you know, we talk about that a lot with friends that are in the industry and stuff like that. But it's first off, it's, it's opportunity, right, because again, sort of leading back to the title, you know, these simple flat corner lot development sites, those are gone. You know, I assume it's the same in Austin, but like in Raleigh, these, the cherry sites are long been cherry picks. So they're all going to have, have hair on them. They're all going to have issues and constraints and things. So it's really, you know, what's your appetite for doing it and you know, will it work? And so it can be frustrating at times. But yeah, that's the, you know, that's the job we do, that's the challenge we face and, and you know, that's what we're good at and that's what we enjoy. And so it's really understanding the client's goals, what they want to do, what they want to accomplish. And, and how do we get there? And can we get there?
- [12:12]
B
How often do you do really? I mean this is probably very specialized. You know, of course this is what showcase on tv. Like, oh, this couple bought a church and they turned it into their house or they bought a firehouse and they turned it into their house. Is that like incredibly rare? Is it more like mundane?
- [12:28]
C
I think that kind of stuff's becoming more commonplace. Again, it comes back to the creativity of, you know, in this location, this, you know, works for me. I mean, look at, you know, we, we, we've designed many barn dominions and, and you know, that's, that's people looking at that, you know, that as a, you know, potential cost saving approach or does that work for a vacation? You mentioned container homes. You know, we've done things like that. We've done prefabricated hotels where you're, you know, you know, basically building it up like, you know, like blocks or a Lego set, you know, so there's, you know, it really comes down to what's your goals, what are you trying to accomplish and can we, you know, can we do it that way? And you know, what's the cost to do it? And you know, what are the regulations and all that sort of stuff to make it happen?
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B
Well, tell me an example of just like a real run of the mill, milquetoast type thing. And then one that's really crazy that, you know, you remember renovative.
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C
So we in New Mexico, we renovated this old beaten down historic hotel. And the cachet of it was that Billy the Kid had shot somebody in the saloon and there was still Billy the Kid, bullet in the wall. And this thing was falling down, dilapidated. They didn't have a straight wall in the place, straight floor in the place. And you know, the owner just loved it. You know, he just fell in love with it and, and thought it was a great little, you know, little downtown property. And, and we restored the saloon. We, we found the bullet holes in the wall and put a, you know, a plaque and glass, you know, cover over it so you could see it. We were, you know, refinished and restored the, the, and we restored the wood, you know, sanded down and restored the wood floors and converted all the rooms and brought them up to date. And so that was, that was great. One another, another hotel we did. And Greensboro, they really wanted to find an old warehouse that they could convert into a hotel and just didn't, could never find the right property. And so it was like, okay, well instead of finding the property, let's just design the building out of, you know, concrete and steel and make it look like a converted warehouse. So we built this brand new building, the restaurant, and basically design it around the, the proportions of like an old, you know, warehouse building. And a lot of people when they see it don't realize that it's a brand new building or you know, it's 10, 15 years old now. But you know, it's things like that, it's, you know, it's finding those opportunities again. It really just comes down to the cherry sites are gone. How do you, how do you find a location, a site or a building that works for you? We went to a conference and it was all invest, always you all number crunchers, investors. And I got invited to this conference and I saying to the host of the conference, you know, I'm like, well, why did you invite. I'm, you know, I, I do small investing, right. I do, you know, some of our own projects and stuff like that. But, but these are like big time investors, you know, multimillion dollar investors. And he said, because what you bring to the table is what they don't have. They don't have the vision and the creativity to come into this old warehouse and say this would be a perfect location to convert to apartments and it's going to cost you dollars to do it, but you're going to wind up with 300 apartments and the performer works and da da da da da. That's the part they love, right? Okay, it's a $20 million investment, but it's going to make you $60 million and then you can sell it for $100 million. But they can't look at that old warehouse building and say, oh, this is a perfect opportunity to make 300 apartments. And he said, that's what you bring to the table. And so that's the, that's the kind of stuff that we love to get involved in because it's that creative thinking and gets you, you know, those, those, see, oh, this is a great opportunity for roi. So it's a lot of, it's, you know, it's, it's always that kind of stuff. Sometimes it's somebody bringing the idea to the table. It's like, hey, I see this opportunity for this building, what would it be good? And then, you know, you sort of help them brainstorm it and put the team together and they pull the investment together. And next thing you know, you've got a, you know, an adaptive reuse project or something that's converted or maybe it becomes a mixed use project. So that's, I mean that's really what we do. That's, that's the exciting thing. And we don't sort of specialize in one. You know, we don't just do hotels and we don't just do residential, we don't just do warehouses. We do a little bit of everything because we love that creative. My wife says it's because I'm, you know, ADD and can't, can't focus. But I love that part of it, that it's never the same thing twice. Even in our residential projects, they look very different. If you look at our website, woke360.com you'll see that a lot of our projects don't look the same because it's not about our design, about our bringing your vision to light. And so if you want something hyper contemporary, we can do that. If you want something classic, we can do that. And it's really about bringing out your personality and what you want and what you want that. How is that going to enhance your life and your life right now?
- [17:37]
B
I remember many years ago, growing up in New York, people would put in a dormer, you know, they'd have like a, you know, maybe a two floor house. The top was like a pitched roof, you know, like a triangle and they would make it a block, you know, the dormer, the up, and get a lot more room that way. So I thought about that, you know, that that's like the oldest conversions I've seen. And it seems like areas where one person does something like everyone tries to do the same thing.
- [17:59]
C
Jay I'll tell you through Covid we did so many attic or basement conversions for offices or, or, you know, classrooms or playrooms for the kids or, or, you know, finding that extra space and that extra square footage to, to. Because now everybody was stuck in their home and, and a lot of those people now keep using things like that because they realized, oh, this works great, and now they've added value to their house, right? So we come up and we convert that attic space into, you know, call it a home office or another bedroom or whatever the case may be. And now they've added that square footage to the value of their home. You know, they may have spent some money, but they're going to get 2 to 3 times X return on it because they've added that heated square footage. Their home that previously was basically unused space. So yeah, adding, doing that dormer stuff and things like that. We, we, we did a ton of that. Like I said through, through Covid. And again, a lot of it's like when you're, when you're trying to find a property that works for you, Maybe it's a 1500 square foot house, but you really need 2000 square feet or you need that extra bedroom, you know, do you go up, do you go down, do you go out the back? What, what work best in that case to get you that little bit that, that extra square footage you got?
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B
Sir, how do you, how do you know enough about local laws that you can work in other states? Like, I would think you'd have by far the most expertise in your area and literally know on planning and zoning and, and all that stuff when you go to other states, like, are you at a disadvantage or you can figure it out?
- [19:31]
C
You know, I think knowing the questions to ask, it's, I mean, this is crazy. We were, we were looking at a project in New Mexico, in this small town in New Mexico where, you know, they wanted to do a mixed use project downtown, in this little downtown community. And so I said to the client, I said, well, the first thing we gotta do after we walk the properties, we gotta go in and talk to the zoning office. Just like you say, you know, what, what are the issues here? You know, what's at stake? This is what we want to do. Does this fall into the, to the town's, you know, 20 year plan? You know, is this something that they're there for or against? You know, we got to understand their positioning. We go in and, and he was very skeptical. And we go in and we sit down with the zoning administrator. And I said, you know, look, I'm from North Carolina and you know, I don't really know much about the area, but you know, this is why we're here, to sit down and talk. And he's like, I'm from North Carolina. He's like, I run the zoning office in, you know, such and such a town. And, and so we hit it off and he said, oh yeah. He said no, it's very different than North Carolina. This is, these are the issues. Da, da, da. We had a, you know, an hour sit down. He laid out the process, the program, the zoning, the issues that we're going to have. This is, you know, this is what you're up against, but this is the pro side of it. Da, da, da. And we walked out of the office and it was a great meeting. And the client looks at me and he's like, how the hell do you walk into this small town in New Mexico and you instantly hit it off with the zoning guy, the most important guy in our whole process. And you know, sometimes it's just dumb luck, sometimes it's, you know, just knowing what to ask for and, and getting in there and making that connection. But yeah, it's, it's a big difference when you're, when you know these people and sometimes that can be good, sometimes that can be bad. And knowing those people and, or just knowing, you know, the questions to ask. And the questions to ask are relatively the same as you go around the country, but there's always nuance to it or this one has a different process. But you got to understand the. So you understand your time frames and limitations and, and expectations.
- [21:36]
B
Are there places that are just hostile to any development?
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C
Well, you know, famously it's, it's, gosh, now I forget the name of the, the town but you know, where Clint Eastwood was, was mayor and, and they've got Carmel. Yeah, you know, that's why he became mayor doing. What was that, 20, 30 years ago? 40 years ago maybe. But yeah, you know, there's there, you know, anytime you're doing something at the coast and the beach or on the water or a big lake, you always have issues. We did a golf course project years ago and with clubhouse and a development and they found a bald eagle and we had to set up, I think it was like some crazy 5, 50 mile perimeter around the bald eagles nest that was found before you could do anything and had to track it. Environmental issues. There's great opportunities in redeveloping environmental sites that had old oil tanks on them. Laundromats are notorious. Gas stations are notorious. But there's also opportunities there. Once you get that site clean, you've added a ton of value now because you've cleaned it up and there's all kinds of grants and tiffs and funds available for that. But yeah, those are, those are big issues to understand what you're getting into. And then you're also getting into multi layered approvals. So it's, it's, you know, there's some approvals that are city, some that are county, some that are state, some that are national, you know, some that are regional. So you, depending on the level of development that you're doing and the extent of the project, you know, there, there could be multi layered, you know, approvals. You might have to get the Corps of Engineers involved because there's waterways on the property. Or are they, are they, you know, blue line streams or they are, you know, are they just wetlands? You know, what, what are they? And so depending on those determinations, makes. So who do you got to get approval from to, to get it done?
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B
Wow, that's crazy.
- [23:31]
C
Yeah, but then that's why that land's been sitting there for that long, or that's why that land is cheap, or that's why that house is cheap because, or, you know, cheap compared to the area because it's not going to be easy to come in and do what you want to do. But those are the sites, again, like, areas like you're in and I'm in. Those are the sites that are available. You know, those are the sites that are the opportunity to just, you know, think you're going to go and pick up the corner of Maine and Main for $500,000 and be able to do what you want to do. Those days are, those days are long gone.
- [24:05]
B
Well, I saw a show about Venetian Hotel in Vegas, and because of the gondolas and the waterways, they actually had to get like the Coast Guard or something ridiculous in there and they had the right seat belts and the gondolas all, you know, it was just.
- [24:18]
C
Yeah.
- [24:19]
B
So crazy, but, you know.
- [24:22]
C
Yeah, exactly. And it all, it all goes to, you know, we've, we've done a lot of daycares, we've done a lot of restaurants. Who, who do you have to go get approvals from, you know, to operate, you know, something like that. And you just start going into so many different, different, you know, levels of, of what do you, you know, who do you need to get involved to approve this?
- [24:44]
B
Should people be afraid? I mean, like. Yeah. How, how difficult is it? I know it depends on a Lot of factors. But is it often easier than you think, Harder than you think?
- [24:51]
C
Here's what I say to, to a lot of our clients. You're hiring us as the professionals. It's our job to know this stuff. Yes, it's complicated. It's complicated to know the, you know, hundreds of pages of building code and what, what codes apply. It's a lot to know what you've got, you know, health department approvals or where do you need state approval from or do you need to get corps of engineers involved? What I tell my clients is that is what you're hiring us and our team for. Right. You tell us what you want to do, we'll, we'll help you through that process and guide you and present you with options or the challenges. But you do what you do best. So maybe you're a doctor or a lawyer or you're a manufacturer of whirly gigs or something, right? You focus on that and, and you keep focused on doing your business because that's what's making you money and that's what's paying for this project. If you start to try to do what we do and take your eye off of what you do, you're going to lose money on both accounts. And so stay focused on what you do best. Rely on your team, have faith in your team, and we'll show you that we can deliver what you want. And you need to make some decisions, especially when costs are involved. But you'll need to make some decisions and we'll present you with those options so that you can be part of the decision making process and we'll give you guidance on those. And there's always, you know, pros and cons, there's always costs involved and so giving you the best playbook to understand that. But if you start taking your eye off your business, you're going to lose money there. And if you start trying to do our business, you're going to lose money there as well.
- [26:34]
B
Yeah, it makes sense. In other movie, the poltergeist came to mind. They, they built the house on like an Indian burial ground. And I know it's ridiculous. Exactly. Examples. But that's what comes to mind as I speak to you, you know.
- [26:44]
C
Well, see, I would say that's more a case of people trying to make shortcuts and cut corners and try to get away with something. And you know, that didn't work out so well for them. You know, they tried to save a buck on not, not relocating the bodies. I. Speaking of funny stories that brings to Mind, I had a client that years ago that he was telling me about a previous builder that he was working with and, or, or was looking work with. And this builder had gone through a whole re. Redesign rebranding exercise. And one of the things they thought they would do that was clever was rather than having a rectangular card, they cut the corner off the card so it, so it had like a little different shape to it. And the guy, the builder's so proud of this new branding and he hands. Hands my client the card and the first thing my client says to him is, oh, so I see you're a builder that likes to cut corners. Oh no, killed it right there. I mean, he said the guy almost was like in tears and he's like, I, yeah. He goes, sorry, I can't, I can't work with you. And so you about that.
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B
That's terrible.
- [27:50]
C
That's like your poltergeist. It's an extreme, it's an extreme case, but it does show that that stuff matters. And, and you can't cut corners even if you're trying to be clever about it. Another great, here's another great one. My, my, my grandfather built ship in World War II and he, after World War II, he, he built his own house. And you know, brick by brick, he did everything. He was an incredibly. He, you know, greatest generation guys, right? And I was so proud to show him my, My office that I built. And in my office I had this angled wall that the, the corridor was kind of at a, like a, like a five degree angle. And he walks in and he's looking, he's looking up and down this wall and he's, he's like, just like he's fixated on this corner. He's looking up and down. He's stepping side to side and he's looking and he's looking around and he, I'm like, like, no, no. What's wrong? What's going on? He's like, geez, you know, I, I don't know how to tell you this. And I'm like, what, What? Like what's going on? I don't get it. And he goes, you know, your wall is crooked. And I'm like, it's crooked? What do you mean it's crooked? And I'm looking at it. I'm like, you mean it's not plumb? He goes, no, no, it's, it's, it's standing straight up. It's just, it's crooked. Look, look, you can't see it's crooked. And I'm like, you mean it's at an angle? And he goes, yeah, yeah. He goes, it's crooked. I'm like, no, milk. We did that on purpose. It's at an angle. And he looks at me, he goes, well, why the hell would you do that? That's part of the design. So it's like. It is. It's those crazy things that happen through the design process, you know, And. And some people perceive it in a different way. And I think that's the exciting thing. I mean, it's like you can get into the whole discussion about what is art and is that art, you know? Oh, I can. You know, I could do that. Well, you know, if you could do it, then do it. You didn't do it, you know, and so I've been in.
- [29:38]
B
I've been in houses where, like, the foundations off the floor is warped. And I can tell you I've been in houses so bad, I wouldn't live there if you paid me because it makes. It makes me sick to be in the house. Instant horrible.
- [29:49]
C
Yeah, well, that's just bad, you know, that's either an old house that hasn't been taken care of or bad craftsmanship, you know, and so I'm pointing out, that's the difference, right? There's. There's. When you do things with intent and intention, you know, that's good. That's design. When you cut corners or sloppy or don't have craftsman. Craftsmanship, that's bad. That there's a big difference.
- [30:10]
B
Yeah, that makes sense. Well, very good. What's the best way for people to find you?
- [30:15]
C
You know, so our website is wok360.com that's w o l k360.com we're on all the socials, Instagram, we're walk 360 decibels. Facebook woke 360, YouTube. Walk 360. Yeah. Seek us out and. And take a look. I think you'll see some really cool stuff. Stuff and. And get a sense of what we're doing.
- [30:35]
B
Okay, well, very good. Well, Jonathan, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. It's been very interesting and that's really cool what you do.
- [30:41]
C
Thanks for having us. If you like this podcast, please click the link in the description to subscribe and review us on itunes.
- [30:50]
A
Thank you for listening to the Good Question podcast. Please email support at the good question podcast.com if you have any referrals to great guests for us to interview, visit thegoodquestionpodcast.com to hear more interviews. And please help us spread the word by rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcasts, iTunes, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you listen to this podcast.