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The Good Question Podcast
Regenerative Breakthroughs Dr. Jeff Gross On Stem Cells, PRP & Next-Gen Healing
00:26:08
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- [00:01]
A
You're listening to the Good Question podcast with Richard Jacobs. Our goal is to make each of our guests exclaim, hmm, that's a good question. I don't know the answer. Because when that happens, it means you, the listener, may be inspired to learn more beyond the interview and to ask great questions yourself that lead to new insights. In this podcast, we cover historical and current anthropology, comparative religion and history. Welcome. And let's get started.
- [00:36]
B
Hello, this is Richard Jacobs with the Good Question podcast. My guest today is Dr. Jeff Gross. We're going to talk about regenerative stem cell medicine and anti aging. Dr. Gross graduated from University of California at Berkeley with a degree in biochemistry and molecular cell biology. He earned a doctorate of medicine in 1992 from George Washington University School of Medicine. He contributed to virology research as well throughout his studies, and he completed a residency in neurological surgery. So a lot of different looks at the body and pathologies and everything. So welcome, Dr. Gross.
- [01:06]
C
Hey, thanks so much for having me. Great to talk to you.
- [01:08]
B
Yeah. So when did stem cells first come on your radar?
- [01:11]
C
Well, I would say clinically, they came back onto my radar about 10 to 12 years ago. You know, they were originally part of my education in my undergraduate years, as you mentioned, from Berkeley, but then I whisked off into med school and residency, and you get busy, you know, treating patients with rather traditional medical approaches. And then patients come in and say, well, I really don't want this. I don't want surgery. What stem cells? And you hear it enough times and you, you finally say, you know what? Something must have happened in all these years since I went to undergraduate school. Let me go back and re educate, retrain. And now I added that as a tool to my practice. In fact, it's almost all we do now is advanced cell signaling. Stem cells, exosomes, peptides. I'm doing so little traditional medicine these days that it's a blessing.
- [01:57]
B
Where are stem cells appropriate and where are they not? What kind of conditions are they most amenable to for a start?
- [02:03]
C
Well, you know, we, there are a lot of things we can do to stimulate our own stem cells, we from our own body. Usually the bone marrow is the best source. You can also get some from fat and other places. But what really seem to have the most response are the signaling from donated perinatal prod products or perinatal tissues. So a mother has a C section, birth, healthy, happy baby, screened mother, no COVID vaccinations. And then they donate. It's a pure donation through the tissue bank. Services the same place you get a kidney and they donate their umbilical cord, their amniotic fluid, what have you. And those go to FDA registered labs in a very legitimate regulated process. And that's how we obtain some of those donated products.
- [02:43]
B
Oh, okay. So these are not from the person themselves. You know, we can induce pluripotency and then use their own stem cells to help them.
- [02:49]
C
I'm, I'm very open to induced pluripotency. It's not something I'm doing clinically at this time, but I do see incredible steps that are being made in cancer, stroke, recovery, other things for specialized tissue. Those just aren't clinically in our hands yet. So when we talk about what can we really do right now, it's, it's usually a more generic mesenchymal stem cell based CEL signal or the other phrase for MSC is medicinal signaling. Cell signaling is the new cool word that all the kids are using in regenerative medicine.
- [03:20]
B
What about the, the exosomes produced by stem cells in particular, is there a separate harvest now for those, you know, like has anyone tried to not only inject stem cells to a site, but you know, maybe over culture, overproduce exosomes so that you get like 2/3 exosomes, 1 third stem cells to. I don't know, would that do anything?
- [03:40]
C
So a great set of questions. Let me try to handle all of that by doing some explana allow. So all cells produce vesicles. Vesicles carry some kind of signaling molecular cargo to recipient cells. Our cells, maybe our cells are inflamed, not doing well, and they need a message, a reminder how to behave more youthfully and restoratively. That's what the exosomes do, particularly from stem cells. Stem cell derived exosomes, with exosomes being short for these extracellular vesicles, are an incredible cell to cell signal. High efficiency cargo delivery influences what's going on in the pathways of those cells. So when you get stem, cel aren't doing anything but delivering exosomes. So now more efficiently, practically and cost efficiently, we are delivering just the exosomes so we can skip cells and go right to the exosomes. Because the cells are the Amazon trucks, the exosomes are the Amazon packages. So we can get you the package and that's a third of the cost that doesn't require any culture, comes right from amniotic fluid which is harvested, filtered, tested, screened, no viruses, nothing else. And that's what we're using to inject and some of our incredible result for inflammatory issues. Intravenous for joint cartilage reconstruction. Injected into the joint spaces, things like that. Those are. We're using these exosomes or these amniotic products. So they're peptides, growth factors, and exosomes.
- [04:58]
B
Okay, gotcha. How much more efficacy is there versus traditional stem cells?
- [05:03]
C
I don't think there's any more efficacy, but there's more efficiency. The exosomes are easy, easier to store and handle. They're less costly, they travel through tissue better, and they cross the blood brain barrier.
- [05:13]
B
Oh, okay. Well, I mean, you know, usually it'd be a peripheral site where you'd want the exosomes to act. So is it a good or a bad thing they cross the blood brain barrier?
- [05:22]
C
Depends on where you want them. So, you know, if we're doing a joint, we deliver them directly to the joint because an intravenous amount won't get enough to the joint. If you want a concentrated brain delivery for dealing with a brain injured patient or a stroke patient, we found the best way to deliver is by nasal spray.
- [05:39]
B
Really?
- [05:39]
C
Yeah. The exosomes go right through the back of the nasal mucosa, through the sphenopalatine ganglion, the cribriform plate, and get. Get to the brain more efficiently than intravenous.
- [05:48]
B
Wow, that's crazy. So what are some of the top conditions you prescribe this for? And what's the before and after look like for these people?
- [05:55]
C
Well, I just want to be clear when we use the word conditions that I'm not making any claim because there are no yet approved marketing claims for any conditions. But that doesn't mean we can't use these as long as we follow ethics and informed consent and right to try rules. So the common things we help patients with are autoimmune or hyperinflame states, Covid lymes, things like that, Recovery from heart attack, stroke, Ms. And then on the regenerative side, we help with joint problems, osteoarthritis, bone on bone, trying to help people avoid surgery. And, you know, I'm a surgeon, so I'm working against the very thing I'm trained to do, which a little bit miss you, though. You know, I'm very. And I'm more rewarding than it's ever been as a physician. And then we have some cosmetic applications, a few other miscellaneous things. But my. My true love is the musculoskeletal. I take people who are bone on bone, and we have some before and after MRIs we have shown, and I'M allowed to say this. We have shown thickening of the cartilage, for example, in a knee, in someone who was losing their cartilage. So it is possible.
- [06:56]
B
What about post surgically? Is there a protocol that you've yet developed that would speed healing? You know, after you have to go in there and do something.
- [07:04]
C
Listen, I don't know that I've developed it, but we certainly apply it. And I apply things I've learned, read or studied that are well published and appear to have a good safety profile. So we're not just shooting from the hip, although we are cutting edge. So yes, if people have a joint surgery and they want to recover from faster, we talk about peptide regimens, the Wolverine protocol, things like that. We talk. We can do intravenous exosomes. We have ex, topical exosomes. If you've had like a facelift, you want the skin to recover faster, better, more youthfully. That we have approaches for almost, you know, anything or any problem, as long as it has a logical basis. And, and we've done the basic work. We start with the right terrain, diet, sleep, exercise, nutrition, you know, everything, because that really helps our own cellular health. And, and then anything we add that en just is synergistic with our own activities. So you got to do the work.
- [07:56]
B
How many different applications of exosomes is it necessary, you know, to, to get people better outcomes? I know, it depends on what happens.
- [08:04]
C
Yeah, of course. Well, like for example, our joint program, if you, if you had knee degeneration, knee pain, loss of cartilage and you're trying to avoid surgery, it may just take one injection.
- [08:14]
B
Okay. And for, and for other. I mean, does it ever take like 5, 10, 15, 20 over time or is that overkill?
- [08:20]
C
No, we've had a couple people that needed two, but the vast majority for joint spine need one. If you talk about IV wellness and general inflammation and anti aging activities and biohacking, that people do that, that they might do an IV just as a preventative on whatever calendar they like. I personally do it myself every three months. My mother, who's in her 80s, flies into town and does it every six months, but she doesn't live near me, so it's a little less convenient. I have some people that are younger and healthier. They probably do it once a year. Just depends on the person. If you're much older, have a lot of inflammation, you have aches and pains everywhere, you might want it every few months as an IV drip.
- [08:57]
B
Yeah, I mean, what happens to the people that get it? Regularly. What are they saying? What are they seeing?
- [09:02]
C
Yeah, Common responses would be improved energy, improved cognitive speed and capacity. Recovery after exercise and workouts is better, quicker. They have a better, more restful, restorative sleep. And in some patients, we've had improvement in organ function. We have a couple people that were having kidney issues and they were trying to avoid that dialysis. We were able to improve their kidney function, you know, by virtue of the labs you can measure. We have a couple other people who are trying to avoid insulin. They were type two diabetics. We've helped their metabolic profile because we're helping all the cells function better and more efficiently. And when you do that, your metabolism, you know, cell metabolism leads to body metabolism. So you help the cells and you help you. You end up helping yourself.
- [09:43]
B
Does it seem to seek out the parts that are in need if you're just doing a general IV application?
- [09:48]
C
No. Exosomes are, are neutral. They don't. Where they don't hone to a place of inflam, stem cell would. So that's why we like to deliver it specifically to a location if we're trying to help something like a knee. But if it's the general body inflammation throughout the body, like an autoimmune problem we want to help with, then an IV makes more sense. It just goes everywhere.
- [10:10]
B
What if someone needed help with their eyes? Has anyone developed an application of eye drops with exosomes in them or anything?
- [10:15]
C
Yeah, we've, we've tried. So we have some patients with dry eye syndrome. We've done some eye drops, we've done some. I've done some eyelid injections. I'm not, I don't know. I don't have it in me to do eyeball injections, although there are reports of that being done. It's just not something I'm doing. There are some peptides we're looking at for eyes. There's some bioregulator peptides for, for that can help restore eye function. One of them you can look up is called retinalamin. And this would be a, this would be a subcutaneous injection in your skin and your fat, in your belly. And you can. There have been scientific publications showing potential benefits with vision.
- [10:53]
B
Amazing. How long have exosomes been used? Seems like, you know, through my interviews, I started hearing about them maybe six, seven years ago, but before that, nothing.
- [11:02]
C
You're about right. About six, seven years ago, they became available. Now when you look back though, people doing PRP and people doing stem cell treatments, those contain exosomes we just didn't fully characterize them or know that they contain that until recently. We're looking back and saying, aha, there were exosomes. And Richard, one of your earlier questions was, you know, hey, some people are combin exosomes and stem cells at the same time. To me, that doesn't make sense. That's like saying, I'm going to take a bucket of water down to the swimming pool and throw it in the pool. I need more water. It doesn't make sense. The exosomes are doing the work.
- [11:33]
B
But like each, each cell type produces their own exosomes with their own payloads. So maybe that's why a combination of, you know, let's say my knee is messed up, you know, knee cells that would be eaten around the knee, plus particular exosomes from, you know, some of the tissue just to boost things along. I don't know, maybe you need, you know, for, let's say you get to work on an organ, let's say the liver, and you just have hepatocytes and stem cells, you know, you reduce pluripotency. Or if you want to gather exosomes and maybe four or five different cell types in the liver and not just one, if you could even do such a thing. I just wonder if it'd be more efficacious.
- [12:06]
C
You're, you're 100% correct. This is where it's headed. It's just not clinically available except in a couple universities and, and INDs, which are trials, right? Big pharma trials. There are a couple IPSCs, induced pluripotent cells for some cancer diagnoses. But for what you're saying, and it makes complete sense, is we have more targeted cells producing more specific CAR exosomes. That's where this is headed. And in the next year, I think we are going to be seeing that. We're going to be seeing neurological, you know, enhanced exosomes for neurological tissue from neurological stem cells, et cetera. You're 100% right. You're just about, probably six to 12 months early.
- [12:42]
B
Okay, are there any contraindications like past cancers or current active cancers?
- [12:47]
C
We don't treat current active cancers with generic stem cells or generic stem cell exosomes. For those patients, we use natural killer cell exosomes. And for people with past cancers, if they've been in number of years, I'm content to treat a joint or something with that.
- [13:03]
B
So someone has active cancer, you'll do exosomes from the killer T cells, natural
- [13:08]
C
killer which is a form of a white blood cell, a T cell. And we have natural killer cells. We can inject them directly into tumors and we can also do them IV for circulating tumors.
- [13:17]
B
What kind of effects have you seen there?
- [13:19]
C
Well, this is very early. The clinic, the preclinical studies are amazing on this. But we have seen some tumor masses become necrotic, meaning the tissue in it dies when we inject them. We are still learning how to apply these, how often, how much. So this is, you know, these are observational only. I don't have enough to give you data, but it's. We make it available to people who want to try things in addition to or instead of a more traditional treatment. Full well, knowing all the, all the different options on the table.
- [13:48]
B
Okay, what are some unusual applications that you've heard about or maybe you've tried or, you know, like ones that really surprised you?
- [13:56]
C
Well, we, you know, some things in the office we do for people for sexual function. We'll do a shock in the private parts, both for men and women. And everyone so far has reported some improvements in the different functioning of that area and the enjoyment related there too. We have some, as I mentioned, aesthetic things for thinning hair. We can inject exosomes for, you know, instead of the vampire facial with prp, we can do one with exosomes. And it's a lot easier not to have to draw someone's blood and spin it down where we can use off the shelf, amniotic exosomes. And by the way, these are not from culture. You can have exosomes from cultured cells, but we're using a fre filtered product right from the amniotic fluid. Fresh, frozen, never powdered, lyophilized, cooked, dried. And it's rich in these growth factors straight from the baby making factory. And that's why if you ever look at a pregnant woman, she might tell you that her skin is glowing and her hair is growing because she's getting a daily dose of exosomes crossing through the placenta. She's not getting stem cells. They don't cross.
- [14:55]
B
Oh, interesting. Very interesting. I didn't think about that. Yeah, that's amazing. Okay, okay. So I know people are like banking cord blood, some of them, you know, for their newborn babies. Is there anything else that's bankable that would allow you to, you know, culture or induce pluripotency in their stem cells and give them exosomes later on?
- [15:13]
C
I don't know if pluripotency is always the goal. It is probably the more Bigger thing coming down the line that will have more potential for future applications. But I don't see why you couldn't bank your amniotic fluid. Again, it has to be C section because C section is sterile. If it's a vaginal birth, it's technically not sterile, so you can't collect the amniotic FL fluid in a sterile way. Interesting, though, that you can bank your umbilical cord even if it does go through a vaginal birth, though maybe there's.
- [15:40]
B
I know there's too much restriction on, on trying to bang the antiotic fluid then. Has anyone spoke about it, like, in literature or tried anything?
- [15:46]
C
Not that I'm aware of. From a vaginal birth? You know, I suppose you could treat with antibiotics, but then you're manipulating it. We're not allowed to manipulate the tissue. So there are a lot of regulations and they. They don't mesh well. Like, someone needs to bring them all together, reorganize them and do a better job.
- [16:02]
B
What about if someone's sick, like if they have the flu or they have a bacterial infection? Has anyone tried to apply exosomes to see if that would help?
- [16:11]
C
Probably, but there are better, more efficient, less costly applications with peptides these days. Thymosin Alpha 1, LL37, some others that are much easier to do. And you can even use Thymosin Alpha 1 to help support your immune system to prevent getting that flu. Yeah, let's.
- [16:26]
B
Let's cross over to the peptides a bit. So these are just short proteins. Is that what peptides are? Absolutely. Where do they come from? Like, how are they cultured or.
- [16:34]
C
Well, most of them are naturally occurring, identified from our own bodies, but they're made synthetically to match that they are bioidentical. So. And we've known about peptides for a long time, you know, like insulin or, you know, a zempic or semaglutide is a peptide, for example, and some of the shorter ones, maybe two or three amino acids, have the most potential. They're called bioregulator peptides. So these are often identified from gastric juice, from glands, from thymus gland, things like that. In fact, thymosin alpha 1 is identified from the thymus gland, a gland you don't hear much about.
- [17:03]
B
And the peptides, you know how they administered by injection, by nasal spray, by how.
- [17:09]
C
Yeah, there are different forms. Subcutaneous injection, like you would with insulin or semiglutide. And then they have nasal spray, they have some oral forms, topical. But the, the bioavailability is more significantly Powerful with the subcutaneous injection.
- [17:24]
B
So what are peptides good at fixing that exosomes are not vice versa.
- [17:28]
C
And they may be paired together, but peptides are really good at musculoskeletal recovery. Also, you've probably heard of the Wolverine protocol, which is BPC5.7 and TB500. That's a very common one. A lot of professional athletes and in course, my, my area, a lot of patients and weekend warriors are using it. I use it too. And I use more if I'm working out a lot or I have a lot of stress or travel or something, and then less on a daily basis. There are some peptides for skin health that also fight inflammation in the body, like the copper peptide called ghkcu. There are other peptides that deal with libido and with immune health and with the brain function. And. And we are just scratching the surface, Richard. And there are so many available. And, you know, your regular doctor wouldn't know about these unless that doctor went back and retrained and learned these things.
- [18:18]
B
How much of a boost does this, does this give you? Is it like a radical improvement or is it subtle?
- [18:24]
C
It depends. For example, the Wolverine Protocol, when I updose it, for example, we'll take the kids to Disneyland and I'll get 25,000 steps in. I'm 60 years old and I will be. I'll have more energy at the end of the day than they will if I take, you know, a couple milligrams of Wolverine Protocol each night while I'm there. So I feel the difference. Some of the libido peptides are amazing, make you feel like you're in high school again. So it just depends on the individual response, what you're taking and how much you're taking.
- [18:52]
B
Okay, so when people are searching for, you know, your kind of services, what are they searching for nowadays? You know, just, oh, peptides to help my. Whatever. Or, you know, exosomes, or are they calling it something else?
- [19:04]
C
My, my bread and butter activity is really joint and spine health. So usually they're trying to avoid surgery. They're looking at stem cell search stem cells. But they find exosomes, and that's where they find me for that. And then some people seek me out for, you know, exosomes for, you know, inflammatory issues, autoimmune issues. And then the, the peptide thing has been growing over the last year. I can tell you we've been doing it for a long time, but it's just exploding there. There's a social awareness of it now. So I don't know. We have a lot of material out there to search on peptides, but that is a big part of our group of, of tools to help people. So I guess we need to work on being better in our search engine. Optim. Peptides are really, you know, signaling factors, just like exosomes, but they're sometimes an easier way to start and they're less costly and easier to acquire.
- [19:52]
B
But it sounds like someone could Google a peptide doctor or exosome doctor, you know, stem cell doctor, that kind of stuff, and they'd probably run across you.
- [20:00]
A
Well, sure.
- [20:00]
C
Well, you know, you know, there are plenty of regenerative medicine stem cell exosome doctors in the country. It's very difficult for us to advertise because we're not allowed to advertise on Google or Facebook where we're disavowed, you know, like mission impossible or something.
- [20:13]
B
I don't.
- [20:13]
C
We just can't advertise. They shut down us down. We have to sometimes get our Instagram shut down. So we have to be very cautious. Again, again, we want to educate. We don't want to make any claims we're not allowed to make. And I'm very upfront about that. Informed consent and ethics are paramount for us and our patients. So it's hard to find, but it probably easier to find on Instagram or TikTok than on the, the general interwebs.
- [20:36]
B
Okay, all right, I gotcha. What's the horizon? Are there clinical trials where the FDA will give approved uses or are they dragging their feet? Are they. What do you think's going on? Is the FDA just hanging, seeing what's happening in the marketplace?
- [20:49]
C
I don't know. It's in flux and I, I'm not going to, I, I have a duty to my patients to make the best things available to them as an option. And I can't wait around for a regulatory body to catch up with me and my patients needs in the cutting edge of medicine. So I realize the FDA has the right mandate. They're supposed to protect consumers. But there's so much red tape and so much overkill. And the only way you can bring something to market for marketing claims is to be big Pharma. So, you know, the way that this will happen is Big Pharma will monetize it and they're doing. Eli Lilly has a war on anyone using a GLP right now. So that's the problem. Follow the money.
- [21:26]
B
Yeah, yeah, I understand. All right, so what, what areas can you serve? You say people fly in to see you, you know, where are you, Are you able to serve all of your state or like, you know, what states are you allowed to provide care in?
- [21:37]
C
I'm based in Las Vegas, Henderson, Nevada, which is suburb of Las Vegas. The vast majority of my patients are, do not live in Nevada. So we do telehealth, coaching, consulting. If people need MRIs or testing or labs, we can order those. REM. The world is flat and it's easy to help people anywhere. We have a small percentage of our patients are international. We only invite you to fly to Las Vegas if there's something we can do for you and you're a candidate that requires you to come to Las Vegas. You know, if you're doing a joint procedure or something, of course you have to come. I can't inject you through the, through, through a zoom call. I haven't figured that one out.
- [22:11]
B
I can see your advertising though. A surer bet than the casinos. And you have someone smiling after they've gotten the.
- [22:17]
C
Yeah, well, listen, if you're coming, coming to Las Vegas, schedule a few days, have a nice dinner, see a show, atmosphere, enjoy, enjoy your stay. Of course, you know, it's, it's, it's a good destination. A lot of direct flights, but I don't work for the chamber of commerce. But hopefully we're, we're doing our part.
- [22:32]
B
Very cool. Anything I should have asked you that, you know, we left out, we talked about some, you know, peptides, exosomes, maybe the anti aging protocols. Is there, are there certain cocktails that you have for anti aging specifically?
- [22:45]
C
Yeah, I mean it depends on the individual, where, where they're starting from, how clean they are with their diet and nutrition and sleep and lifestyle etc. You know, we're have to, we have to fix the terrain before we start using the fancy stuff, the peptides and the exosomes. So we don't jump right to that. Although in some people they're ready and it depends on the person. So there are peptides for longevity, peptides that improve your telomere length and things like that that we can talk about. There are, you know, exosomes are a great way to reverse the inflamma aging of cells. And if you're in reversing inflamma aging, you're extending the life and health of your cells and therefore extending your own health span. So yes, there are protocols, they're individualized and precision for each individual.
- [23:25]
B
Okay, well, very good. I don't know, I guess last thing. Any interesting case studies, you know, without names of really interesting or really cool results that were garnered from using these techniques.
- [23:35]
C
Yeah, I mean, I have, I have this. This case always comes back to my mind. I have this sweet woman. She first came to me when she was 79. Her hobby was painting these little river rocks. She would bring me a river rock as a paperweight. She's really sweet. She had aches and pains in all her joints. She had worked her whole life, hard work and she raised her girls and she's this independent woman and she drove herself and took care of herself. And she was losing that ability. She couldn't do her crafts. So we, we tried one IV with exosomes and she came, or maybe I spoke to her the next day. She came back at some point and she said, I feel great. I can pay my rocks, I can cook, I can go for long walks, I can exercise. It was amazing how much inflammation was reduced and with that, her pain. So I love this woman for that. And then she said, when do I come back? And I said, I don't know, you tell me. And I didn't hear from her for about a year. And so that IV lasted a year and she came back. She's now 82 and it's been a good year since I've seen her since the last one. So I'll probably see her soon.
- [24:25]
B
How has it been for. Since you're getting in a lot more than most people. You said your mom was twice a year. She's great. You're like four times a year. I mean, what, you know, what does it become for you having it so often, so regularly?
- [24:37]
C
Well, I. Listen, I'm. I'm 60. I have almost a version 2.0 of my practice. I have this renewed enthusiasm. We are going full speed. I'm doing more events. I'm speaking. I'm going to, you know, educate other clinicians on this. I'm part of some faculties about peptides and regenerative medicine. I travel internationally. I have more energy and I'm in the better shape now than I probably was 10 years years ago.
- [24:59]
B
Yeah, that's awesome. It's really great to hear. Okay, well, what's the best way for listeners to get in contact with your office if they, if they want this help?
- [25:05]
C
Thanks, Richard. Our brand is called RE Celebrate. So you're celebrating the renewal of your cells. So we call that RE Celebrate. R E C E L L E B R A T E. And I think we've cornered the Internet on that word. So re celebrate.com on socials at re celebrate. If you Google that word, you'll find us.
- [25:25]
B
Okay, well, very good. Well, thanks a lot doctor Girls for coming on. I really appreciate it.
- [25:28]
C
Thank you. It was a pleasure to be here. Thanks a lot.
- [25:30]
B
If you like this podcast, please click the link in the description to subscribe and review us on itunes.
- [25:38]
A
Thank you for listening to the Good Question podcast. Please email support the goodquestionpodcast.com if you have any referrals to great guests for us to interview. Visit thegoodquestionpodcast.com to hear more interviews. And please help us spread the word by rating and reviewing us on Apple podcasts, iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to this podcast.