Gap Year

Summary

The Good Sex Project

Episode: Gap Year
Date: July 7, 2026
Host: Melody Thomas
Produced by: PopSoc Media
Theme: Age Gap Relationships

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the complexities of age gap relationships—examining real-life experiences, social perceptions, power dynamics, and the sometimes arbitrary rules society imposes on love across ages. Host Melody Thomas speaks with everyday Kiwis and top experts, unpicking assumptions, pitfalls, and, sometimes, double standards. The show aims for compassion, insight, and practical takeaways for navigating love beyond numbers.

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Key Topics and Discussion Points

Introduction and Framing: The Age-Gap Dilemma

• [02:02–03:15] Melody introduces the theme: relationships with age differences, highlighting both cultural discomfort and curiosity. She alludes to listener disclosures about grooming and issues of power.
• [04:21] Melody discusses her own initial skepticism of age gap relationships, especially given her feminist background and awareness of power imbalances.

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Skye’s Story: A Modern “Gap Year” Relationship

How They Met & Started Dating

• [02:42–04:39] Skye (19, South Island): Meets Avi through work at age 18, while he was 20. She describes him as a best friend and details a slow, honest start to their relationship.
  • “We have really similar values and we get along really well. Like, he’s my best friend.” — Skye (03:04)
  • Both opened up about life complications upfront, choosing to wait a few days before officially dating.

Navigating Culture and Caution

• [18:13] Moving in together was practical for both romance and Avi’s residency status, igniting concern but eventual support from Skye's family.
  • “My mum was like, so how come you guys aren’t married yet? I’m like, because I’m 19, Mum.” — Skye (19:55)
• [20:14] Observes cultural differences, especially in Indian family norms, where age gaps are more casually accepted.
  • “What he’s told me about his culture is basically, it’s less frowned upon to have age gap relationships.” — Skye (20:14)

Addressing Power & Experience

• [22:44–23:37] Skye notes similar levels of relationship and sexual experience; describes their healthy conflict resolution.

  • “It’s always ended in a conversation of, okay, here’s what happened. Here’s what I can do better. Here’s what you can do better.” — Skye (22:57)

• [23:57–24:41] Acknowledges Avi’s skill with life logistics (finances, planning), but feels the dynamic is supportive, not controlling.

Sex, Communication, and Growth

• [25:05] Skye is the more sexually communicative partner, often guiding Avi towards better discussions about pleasure and boundaries.

  • “It’s like I always just go, well, did you have fun? ... Is it fun? Is it safe? Is it happy? That’s all we need, really.” — Skye (25:05)

• Summed up as an equal, reciprocal relationship strengthened by their mutual willingness to learn from each other’s backgrounds.

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Listener Experiences: When Age Gaps Go Wrong

• [09:02–13:21] A series of powerful listener voice memos details relationships with significant and sometimes dangerous age gaps:
  • One listener, in a 10-year gap at age 16, describes love bombing and grooming ([09:24]).
    • “It’s a young, impressionable person and then it’s a grown ass adult shaping the way that person feels loved or feels validated.” — Listener ([10:43])
  • Another, at 22 with a partner of 39 ([12:03]), recounts how she now recognizes the strangeness from her current older perspective.
  • The emotional and financial maturity gaps, red flags (e.g., patterns of older partners seeking young partners), and the outsized risk of manipulation, especially before the #MeToo era, are underscored.
    • “Experience is power, and we all know what a power imbalance can do in a relationship.” — Listener ([12:26])

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Power Imbalances, Social Scripts & Cultural Context

Researcher Insights

• [27:12] Dr. Justin Lehmiller (Kinsey Institute) brings context:

  • [27:47] Roughly 8% of US heterosexual marriages involve a man 10+ years older; reverse is 1–2%.
  • [28:13] Age gap couples report similar satisfaction as age-matched couples—sometimes higher for older women/younger men pairs.

• [29:18] Power perceptions can be misleading; both youth/beauty and wealth/experience can shape dynamics, but not always as outsiders expect.

  • “How people perceive their own power dynamics … can be very different from what outsiders … assume.” — Dr. Lehmiller ([29:18])

Gender, Double Standards and Shifting Norms

• [30:36–32:50] Discussion on how gendered scripts shape judgments:

  • Relationships with older women (think Demi Moore/Ashton Kutcher) attract more scrutiny, though attitudes have recently softened—sometimes even seen as empowering.

• [33:13] Dr. Lehmiller and Melody address persisting harmful assumptions—e.g., that young men cannot be victims in older-woman/younger-man relationships.

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Matt’s Story: Taboo, Catfishing & Consent from a Male Perspective

• [33:52–38:44] Matt, 24, discusses being drawn to older women for their self-knowledge and sexual confidence.

  • “They understand what they want and they’re not gonna settle for less.” — Matt (35:55)

• First age gap encounter was accidental catfishing by a much older woman ([36:40]):

  • “You have to deal with the consequences of your actions—but obviously that is not something you have to do ... but as a people pleaser, I was like, well, I’m here now.” — Matt ([37:10–37:32])

• Melody calls out the tendency to laugh at or minimize these stories because of the gender reversal, reinforcing the importance of consensual autonomy for everyone.

  • “Consent goes both ways. ... Everyone has the right and ability to go, yes … actually, no, I change my mind, no.” — Matt ([38:44])

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Social Bias, Secrecy, and Judgement: The Hidden Costs

• [41:58–42:49] Matt describes stigma: friends may joke, but social disapproval can make people hide these relationships—which Dr. Lehmiller’s research finds is more damaging than the age gap itself.

  • “When people were keeping their relationship secret … it was more taxing on them as individuals and also more taxing on the relationship … they were more likely to break up.” — Dr. Lehmiller ([42:15])

• [43:06–44:14] Advice for outsiders: Hold judgment. Intervene only if you see genuine exploitation or harm; otherwise, personal bias shouldn’t dictate someone’s romantic life.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Melody [04:39]: “18’s an adult technically, but it is a young one. …feelings about age gap relationships are connected to the numbers [but] other factors … have a huge impact... it’s murky territory, rife with ethical complexities and no one solid answer.”
• Skye [21:16]: “Cultural differences have been … quite good for our relationship … it’s us learning from each other.”
• Matt [38:44]: “Consent goes both ways. It's not just for women. It's also very much for men ...”
• Dr. Lehmiller [29:18]: “How people perceive their own power dynamics in the relationship can be very different from what outsiders might see or perceive.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------|---------------| | Skye introduces herself | [02:42] | | Skye and Avi’s backstory | [03:15–04:39] | | Listener cautionary tales | [09:02–13:21] | | Skye’s family and culture | [18:13–21:16] | | Dr. Lehmiller: Research & taboos | [27:12–33:13] | | Matt’s older woman, catfishing tale | [36:40–38:44] | | Power, secrecy, and judgement | [41:58–43:06] |

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Practical Takeaways & Guiding Principles

• There’s no “correct” rule for relationship age gaps. The "half your age plus seven" formula is arbitrary, rooted in outdated, sexist thinking ([45:35]).
• Power isn’t always about age. Individual experience, education, emotional maturity, and financial independence all matter.
• Judgement hurts more than the gap. Secrecy and societal shame can erode relationships; allies should support, not isolate, loved ones in age gap relationships.
• Always prioritize consent and mutual respect—regardless of gender or age.

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Concluding Thoughts

The episode ends with a compassionate, nuanced reminder: while age gaps can intensify power imbalances (especially for younger, less experienced individuals), each relationship must be judged in its true context. Blanket rules and shaming punish both healthy and unhealthy partnerships; vigilance should focus on genuine signs of harm and exploitation.

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Next episode tease: The show will cover stories of survivors affected by abuse, coercion, and assault, with advice on healing and reclaiming autonomy.

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For listener support and contact, find The Good Sex Project on Instagram @goodsexproject or email [e-mail].

Transcript

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[Good Sex Project Intro Host]

Kia ora kouto this series is about sex and relationships, so it's great to listen to on the bus, but you will want to make sure that your headphones are connected before you hit play. This episode is about age gaps in relationships. There is a brief disclosure about grooming from one of our listeners, along with a very much not okay catfishing story and some swearing. This podcast was made with the support of New Zealand On Air.

[Melody Thomas]

Getting to know each other, that can be quite fun. We'll run everything past you later before we actually, like, release anything. Yeah, so how about you start by introducing yourself?

[Skye]

Okay. Hi, my name is Skye. I'm 19 and I live in the South Island.

[Melody Thomas]

Sky and I are on a video call. The connection's a little patchy, maybe because of the weather.

[Skye]

Yeah, when it rains, it pours.

[Melody Thomas]

Skye's here to talk to me about love. More specifically, about how she fell into it with her boyfriend Avi.

[Skye]

We have really similar values and we get along really well. Like, here's my best friend.

[Melody Thomas]

Here's the story of how sky met her guy.

[Skye]

We met through work. We were doing the same job and then I got injured doing something. And then I was like at home feeling sorry for myself and I was like, oh, I'm probably just going to have toast for dinner because I can't make anything else. And he was like, oh, I'll bring you some dinner. So he came over and brought me dinner and then he was looking after me while I was unwell and I was like, oh, damn, he's kind of nice. And then there was like a work event and we all went out to like the bar. Classic Kiwi love story at the bar. And then he came in and I was like, oh, can I talk to you for a minute? He pulls me outside the bar. It was really loud. And then he was like, so I've got feelings for you. I've got like a few things going on that I need to sort out. I've got this, this and this going on. I was like, oh, yeah, okay, well, I like you too. I've got this, this and this going on that I need to sort out. Shall we just come back in a couple of days and then revisit?

[Melody Thomas]

And then did things fall into place pretty quickly and easily after that? Yeah, yeah. So the bit that we've missed out so far for our listening audience is that. So at this time you're 18.

[Skye]

How old is he? When we started dating, he was 20.

[Melody Thomas]

I'm curious to know how you're feeling after hearing that last bit. Some of you won't have blinked an eye, eh? Age gap, shmage gap, what's the big deal? Others will be a bit uncomfortable. I was when sky first told me about it. I mean, 18's an adult technically, but it is a young one. Whatever your reaction, though, it is worth noting that it isn't coming from some objective rulebook on healthy age gaps because there isn't one. There's the old half your age plus seven rule, which, hang on a minute, 26 and two is 13 and seven 20. These guys fail by two years. But where does that maths even come from? OK, here's another example. I don't have an interview for this one, but it is a true story. A 15 year old boy gets a crush on his high school teacher. She's nearly 40, one of her kids is in his class and she feels the same way about him. Half your age plus 740 divided by 2 plus 7 27. Not even close. The pair keep their feelings hidden for years, but the connection doesn't go away. His parents are understandably concerned, so they send him to another city for his final year of high school, hoping the distance will cool things off. But it doesn't. He comes back and marries her. This is how French President Emmanuel Macron met his wife, Brigitte. Their love story is one that in many countries could have seen. That teacher face criminal charges, including in France, by the way, given that she was in a position of authority over him. Though, it's worth pointing out that the French public don't seem to care about it that much. How did that story make you feel? Honestly, it gives me the major ick. If this were an older male teacher and a 15 year old girl, we'd have a word for it and it wouldn't be romantic. But the story gets more complicated from there because three decades later, he's 47, she's 73, and they're still going strong. Does that change your opinion? The fact that they're still together all those years later? Should it? While our feelings about age gap relationships are connected to the numbers, other factors also have a huge impact, like gender generation, cultural background, upbringing, relationship history. It's murky territory, rife with ethical complexities and no one solid answer. But today we're gonna try get a handle on it anyway. In this episode of the Good Sex Project, we'll hear from people who've loved outside their cohort.

[Matt]

They understand what they want, and they're not gonna settle for less.

[Skye]

I just wan and be a fairy and just do whatever I want. And he's like, okay, well here's what we need to do.

[Melody Thomas]

Plus, people love to have opinions on this one. But what does the actual research say?

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

How people perceive their own power dynamics in the relationship can be very different from what outsiders might see or just assume.

[Melody Thomas]

And in lieu of half your age plus 7, are there any other handy rules for navigating all of this, or are we on our own? Big questions. Let's see if we can find some answers. I'm Melody Thomas. Welcome to episode five of the Good Sex Project Gap year. Before I started making this episode, my opinion on age gap relationships was pretty cynical. Or maybe the word is more wary. And there's good reason for that. When I was a teenager, I knew a lot of people, mostly girls, but not all girls, who had significantly older partners and who at the time thought that things were fine. But who've looked back on those same relationships from their 20s, 30s and 40s and realised things were not as cool as they seemed. That the age gap actually did come with some real power imbalances that they didn't have the experience to look out for, let alone avoid. And I'm guessing you're familiar with that kind of story too. Because when I put a call out to listeners to share their experiences of age gap relationships and the things they wish they'd known at the time, this is what I heard back. I was 26 and I was dating

[Age Gap Relationship Listener 1]

someone that was 44.

[Melody Thomas]

When I look back, I think, what the fuck? I just remember the person I was dating said to me once, oh, you shouldn't drink because your energy is too pure. Things like that. I don't regret it, but I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[Age Gap Relationship Listener 1]

I got into a relationship with someone who was 10 years older than me when I was almost 16 and he was 26 when I met him. And I stayed with him and had two children with him from the outset. He told me he wanted to have children with me. He would love bomb me. He would love on me so hard. He was really incredibly charismatic. My parents really liked him. He then became really quite controlling and manipulative and very jealous of any other males in my life. He, yeah, became abusive later on in our relationship in a physical way. You know, I was a pretty mature and onto it and feisty young woman and it's really hard to think that I might have been manipulated. But I guess the more research I've done on what grooming really is, you know, it's a young, impressionable person and then it's a grown ass adult shaping the way that person feels loved or feels validated. And I can see now there was a whole lot of imprinting that was done at that time which, yeah, was really negative for me in a long term way. I think he had this idea of what he wanted me to be and I didn't really get to be myself.

[Skye]

Hi, Melody.

[Age Gap Relationship Listener 2]

I was in a relationship when I was 24. I met him on a beach in India. We went on a few dates and then we figured out that there was a 12 year age gap. But we just fell in love really quick and it was a real whirlwind relationship. It was my first big relationship, like first love, proper love, you know, and there was lots of upsides, but the downsides to me is that I was forced to grow up quite quickly, especially around things like finances where I was only 24. I had no money. I was traveling, but my boyfriend had a house and he had a mortgage and he was earning like 10 times more than me. And there are good sides of that. We could actually afford to go out for dinner, but there was a power difference. So I was so used to being independent, I was traveling by myself. And then all of a sudden he was like, oh, let's go out for dinner, I'll pay. And I'm oh, I don't want you to have to pay all the time. It makes me feel like I don't have my autonomy anymore. Yeah, finances were a big one and I think that maybe not talked about enough where you're in clearly very different stages of life. Funnily enough, my current partner is eight and a half years older than me, but he's mentally the same age as me, so it works well.

[Melody Thomas]

Hi Melody. I. I was in an age gap relationship when I was in my early 20s. I was 22 and I dated a guy who was 39 for five years. I am now 39 and so when I think about me dating someone who's 22, I think, oh, I probably wouldn't do that.

[Age Gap Relationship Listener 3]

When I was 20, I fell for a 26 year old guy and I know that doesn't sound like that extreme, but I was very sheltered for 20 and he had already been married and divorced. The relationship was intense from the start, which I definitely wasn't ready for in any way, especially with it being years before the MeToo movement, the concept of red flags and any of that stuff didn't even exist in my world. I'm sure that age gaps can work in some relationships, but from my experience, I would say both parties should be fully formed adults as a basic requirement. And if the older person has a habit of going for much younger partners, that does stand out to me as a red flag. Now, no matter how nice they appear. Experience is power, and we all know what a power imbalance can do in a relationship.

[Melody Thomas]

Thank you so much for sending those voice memos in. It sounds like some of you had an okay time in age gap relationships though. Don't regret it. Wouldn't recommend it though isn't exactly an endorsement, but there's also a lot in there that sounded really problematic. Or in the case of our listener who was 15 when a 26 year old began pursuing and grooming her. Illegal, predatory. But the thing about anecdotes, even cautionary ones, is that they really only tell us what can happen, not what will

[Acast Announcer]

happen.

[Melody Thomas]

Lets go back to sky and get to know her better. She grew up in the north island in Auckland and her early sex ed was pretty similar to what we hear from around 90% of the people we talk to.

[Skye]

We never really talked about sexuality, sexual health or anything like with our parents. All the stuff I know mostly came from school.

[Melody Thomas]

To her credit, Sky's mum did try while her dad hid in the other

[Skye]

room, she would tell me her bad story. So she'd be like, when I was your age, I had this happen to me and that was really bad. So you just can't go anywhere near it. Cause I don't want any bad things to happen to you. As opposed to sharing any positive experiences, which I think would have been a lot more helpful because then it's like a model of what looks good.

[Melody Thomas]

Sky got her first boyfriend when she was 13 or 14 and he was the same age as her, but he did have older friends and they talked

[Skye]

about women really derogatory ways. Like his best friend, he had this really lovely girlfriend. He would always say things like, oh, I hate girls who have thick thighs. You can't have thick thighs. But like you can't have thigh gaps either. Cause that's just scary. It makes you look like a skeleton. Like she ended up in hospital from anorexia because he constantly was on her. She's okay now, she's doing great.

[Melody Thomas]

As they tend to. These older friends had a big influence on Sky's boyfriend.

[Skye]

So learning about sexuality and relationships from him was not a great place to learn.

[Melody Thomas]

Sky and her boyfriend eventually broke up, which was hard at the time.

[Skye]

I was like, oh my God, that's the worst thing that's ever happened to me.

[Melody Thomas]

But she got over it.

[Skye]

It really wasn't after that. I was a bit more cautious.

[Melody Thomas]

Sky had a few other relationships after that, one lasting from a few months up to nearly a year. And she felt like she learned something new from every situation and new partner and vice versa.

[Skye]

If you're learning from someone and they're learning from you, then it's like mutually beneficial, right? Whereas it's just one person learning from the other person, or one person like doing everything all the time, then that's when it becomes toxic and one sided.

[Melody Thomas]

In her final year of high school, sky levelled up her sex education through an Auckland based initiative called the Peer Sexuality Support Program, or pssp.

[Skye]

It works on the basis that students are more likely to talk to other students than they are to talk to adults about sexuality and health and wellbeing concerns.

[Melody Thomas]

Each year, five students from participating high schools are selected to attend HUI and learn about everything from birth control and STIs to consent, body positivity, gender dynamics, and sexuality. And they learn about healthy and unhealthy relationships. So they can then return to school and pass all of that info onto other students. Think Otis Milburn from the TV show Sex Education, except peer approved, government funded, and with actual supervision. Now, Skye was one of the students selected from her school.

[Skye]

They get, like experts in to talk to you, and it's a really cool space. You sit there and breakfast in the morning and you're like, so what is anal sex and why do people do it? And it's just a normal conversation.

[Melody Thomas]

Such a great idea. And delivered just in time for sky, because the education that she got through pssp, specifically, particularly around power dynamics and healthy relationships, didn't stay theoretical for long.

[Skye]

When we originally had the little chat outside the bar, and he was like, well, I like you.

[Melody Thomas]

Sky already had a framework for thinking about what came next.

[Skye]

He was like, well, I'm a lot older than you. And like, our workmates who had, like, noticed us, like, hanging out in the bar and stuff had gone and said to him, like, yo, she's pretty young. Like, be careful with her. That's something that's bit worrying for me. So I think the green flag was that he was very aware of it. And the other thing is because at the time, we were doing the same job. We're not anymore. He's sort of, like, moved up in the world, so there is a little bit of imbalance there. But when we started dating, we were doing the same job, we were on the same page. And I was like, okay, we can, like, look at each other as equals.

[Melody Thomas]

Sky and Avi got together soon after that night at the bar, and they quickly became inseparable.

[Skye]

We're like both sort of people who like to stay home and be cozy as opposed to people who like to go out and drink or whatever.

[Melody Thomas]

Six months in, sky suggested that they move in together. They were spending so little time apart, it didn't make sense to be still paying two rents. Also, Avi's from India. If he's going to get residency here, that requires them documenting their cohabitation.

[Skye]

So I was like, well, gonna do that eventually, you might as well just move in.

[Melody Thomas]

So they did.

[Skye]

We spend all our time together, right. Which for some people can be quite, like, jarring because that's a lot of one person.

[Melody Thomas]

You might be wondering what Sky's family thinks of the match. I have been wondering that when they first got together, her Parents were pretty wary, as you'd expect.

[Skye]

They were like, well, here's all our concerns. Like, watch out for these things. I was like, okay, Well, I haven't seen any of those concerns.

[Melody Thomas]

And when sky announced that they were moving in together, her mum did make her study up on the laws around de facto relationships.

[Skye]

That wasn't very fun for me. Cause I don't do so well with legal stuff.

[Melody Thomas]

I like your mum for making you do that work, just in case. I think that's good mumming.

[Skye]

She is a good mum. Yeah.

[Melody Thomas]

Sky only has one sibling, an older brother, and he was pretty unsupportive at first. It's changing slowly.

[Skye]

He's gone from outright refusal to acknowledge my partner's existence to he can vaguely handle him being brought up in conversation now.

[Melody Thomas]

And now, more than a year on,

[Skye]

my parents are really on board. My mum was like, so how come you guys aren't married yet? I'm like, because I'm 19, Mum.

[Brooke Devard]

Calm down.

[Melody Thomas]

That's amazing. What a U turn.

[Skye]

Yeah, for sure.

[Melody Thomas]

Avi's family also seem to approve of the relationship. From what sky can gather over zoom calls with a significant language barrier.

[Skye]

I try, I go, hey. And then they're like, hi. And so we're like, they're pretty happy with it. What he's told me about his culture is basically, it's less frowned upon to have age gap relationships because it's more commonly that the men are seen as the providers and they want to be established life before they find a long term partner or a wife or whatever. So it's more common that you do have an older man with a younger woman.

[Melody Thomas]

That's true. In India, it's traditional for a husband to be older than his wife. And arranged marriages have long been set up with that gap built in for exactly the reasons sky just described. So, yeah, no one would blink an eye about the age gap part in India. But what I think sky probably also knows is that that comfort with age gaps comes from a patriarchal tradition with very specific scripts about who provide and who receives. What I find interesting is how Sky's found a way to flip that script.

[Skye]

I think cultural differences have been, like, quite good for our relationship in a way, because it means, like, it's not just me learning from him because he's older, it's us learning from each other because he doesn't know about my culture and I don't know about his culture.

[Melody Thomas]

They're both foreigners to each other's worlds.

[Skye]

So I'm learning about, like, his Family and his holidays and stuff. And, like, he doesn't celebrate Christmas, so he got to, like, celebrate Christmas together for the first time. And I fed him, you know, those pink ice buns that you can get at the supermarket. I was like, here is my cultural moment for you. Have a pink ice bun. That's so funny. He's like, here, have some spices. And I'm like, wow. And I'm like, here, have something that has no flavor except the icing. And he's like, wow.

[Melody Thomas]

Now, because of who I am, my gender generation, my background, my gold star feminist credentials, I went into my interview with sky really ready to disapprove of her relationship. For me, their age gap is a huge red flag, and I expected to find a lot more. So I asked a lot of really probing questions, which, to her credit, she handled like a champ. What I was trying to figure out was, age aside, were there other factors in their relationship that might contribute to a power imbalance? I asked about previous relationship experience.

[Skye]

I would say we had a similar level of relationship experience. So, like, similar number of sexual partners. I've probably had more romantic partners than him.

[Melody Thomas]

I asked about how they handle conflict

[Skye]

every time we've argued, because everybody argues. You know, it's always been a small argument, and then it's always ended in a conversation of, okay, here's what happened. Here's what I can do better. Here's what you can do better. Here's what we can do together to avoid this happening next time. And it's always framed in that nice sort of little conversation. And then we always feel better afterwards. So that's one of the things that gives me a lot of confidence, is we have good and healthy conflict resolution. Like, I don't ever feel like I'm not being listened to. And whenever I bring up a concern, it's like, oh, yeah, I understand where you're coming from. Let's change that by doing this.

[Melody Thomas]

I also asked about financial disparity. One of our listeners touched on this in their voice memo. And this can play a huge role in relationship power imbalances these days. Aavi does earn a little bit more than sky, and he does have a higher level of financial literacy. She doesn't think of this as a problem.

[Skye]

He's really helpful when it comes to, like, finances and stuff, because I'm just like, oh, I just put in my savings. And he's like, well, you can invest it. You can do this. You can make a term deposit. And I'm like, oh, okay, maybe I should have considered that he's just good at giving advice on, like, the. The real world stuff. I'm like, I just want to run around and do my job and be a fairy and just do whatever I want. And he's like, okay, well, here's what we need to do.

[Melody Thomas]

I wouldn't mind running around being a fairy while my partner takes care of all the business stuff. But that's not how it works. Because I married someone my age.

[Skye]

I mean, I do do my best to, like, actually help out with that stuff. I'm just not very good at it, and he is. And I'm like, oh, well, seeing as you're so good at it, obviously that

[Melody Thomas]

does sound very helpful. You can hear I'm a little bit jealous, but this is exactly the kind of dynamic that can quietly shift over time. So it's worth both people staying conscious of it. Now, of course, I also asked about sexual how well they communicate about it, how she feels about that aspect of their relationship. And her answer was kind of amazing. It's actually her that leads the charge on this front.

[Skye]

I think that mostly comes from me because in his culture, it's very much like, you don't talk about it much. I sort of came into the relationship and I was like, well, I like this and I want this. And he was like, what? But I think for him, he just really likes seeing me happy. And so it leads him to ask me more questions about, like, sex and stuff. And so then it, like, becomes a lot better. And it's like I always just go, well, did you have fun? And that's like, that's the priority there. It's like, is it fun? Is it safe? Is it happy? That's all we need, really.

[Melody Thomas]

Speaking with Sky, I found myself revising my assumptions in real time. We can't know for sure, but this relationship does seem really lovely and really equal. But she is one person, and this is one story. As she and Avi just unusually well matched. Did her incredible sex and relationship education with PSSP set her up for success in a way that many others wouldn't have been? Am I missing something? It's time to call in the experts.

[Acast Announcer]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Brooke Devard]

Hello. Hello, it's Brooke Devard from Naked Beauty. Join me each week for unfiltered discussion about beauty trends, self care, journeys, wellness tips, and the products we absolutely love and cannot get enough of. If you are a skincare obsessive and you spend 20 plus minutes on your skincare routine. This podcast is for you. Or if you're a newbie at the beginning of your skincare journey, love this podcast as well. Because we go so much deeper than beauty, I talk to incredible and inspiring people from across industries about their relationship with beauty. You'll also hear from skincare experts. We break down lots of myths in the beauty industry. If this sounds like your thing, search for naked beauty on your podcast app and listen along. I hope you'll join us.

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

You know, people are often a lot more judgmental of other people's sexual choices and relationship decisions than they are about their own right.

[Melody Thomas]

This is Dr. Justin Le Miller. He's a social psychologist and senior research fellow at the Kinsey Institute, which, if you didn't know, is one of the world's leading research organizations dedicated to the scientific study of sexuality, gender and reproduction.

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

I also run the Sex and Psychology podcast and I'm author of the book Tell Me what yout Want.

[Melody Thomas]

Today he's here to talk with me about age gap relationships, and we're going to start with the basics like but just how common are they?

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

In the research and data, we see that somewhere around 8 or so percent of heterosexual marriages feature an age gap with a man who is 10 or more years older than his female partner. And conversely, when you look at the reverse age gap, where you have an older woman with a younger man, that's only about 1 to 2% of heterosexual marriages.

[Melody Thomas]

So in the US at least, we're talking about 1 in 10 hetero marriages overall.

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

When it comes to relationship satisfaction, what we see is that people in age gap relationships are often just as happy, healthy and satisfied as people who are closer in age to their partners.

[Melody Thomas]

There are outliers. For example, older women who are married to younger men are even more satisfied

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

than everyone else, which suggests that there's something about that dynamic that might be particularly satisfying.

[Melody Thomas]

And age gaps are way more prevalent in same sex relationships than in opposite sex ones.

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

If you look at research on same sex couples more broadly, what you see is that they're much more likely to be different from their partners in some way. So same sex relationships are also more likely to be interracial. For example, you know, when it comes to same sex relationships, right, They've already violated one taboo by virtue of, you know, not conforming to the norm of heterosexuality. What's another one adding in other layers of taboo? Yeah, but it's less costly for them.

[Melody Thomas]

When it comes to power differences in age gap relationships, there can be cases

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

where exploitation does happen. You know, I'M not going to deny or minimize that. But for the vast majority of the individuals and couples that I've spoken to who are in these age gap relationships, the partners actually feel like they're on equal footing. You know, at the individual level. How people perceive their own power dynamics in the relationship can be very different from what outsiders might see or perceive or just assume. A lot of people seem to assume that the older partner necessarily has more power and that there's something kind of inherently exploitative about that. And, you know, what does power in a relationship mean? You know, a lot of people assume that power necessarily connotes, you know, age or wealth or so forth, but there's also a power to youth and beauty and attractiveness and so forth.

[Melody Thomas]

I get what Dr. Leh Miller's saying here, and yeah, there is power in youth and beauty, but I'm going to push back a little bit on that equivalence as social currency. Youth and beauty work on a very different timeline to, say, financial security or life experience. They don't accumulate, they depreciate, which means the older partner's advantages compound while the younger partners tend to erode. That asymmetry matters, even if it's not the whole story. What about when we look at age gap relationships through a gender lens?

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

Back when I was doing some of this research in the early 2000s, people did seem to be a lot more disapproving of age gaps where you had an older woman with a younger man, than the reverse, Right? And it was actually normative for a long time for older men to kind of be with younger women.

[Melody Thomas]

There was the odd joke about cradle snatches, but even that was more tongue in cheek then seriously disapproving. But pair an older woman with a younger man, that was a different story.

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

You know, if you think about Demi Moore's relationship with Ashton Kutcher, right? That was on the COVID of all the tabloids for a very long time when they were together. Because here you have this older woman with this younger guy, and how does that work?

[Melody Thomas]

But in recent years, and this is probably kicked off by, or at least Exacerbated by the MeToo movement, these attitudes have begun to change dramatically.

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

There's been this reversal that I've noticed where people now start to look at the age gaps where you have an older woman with a younger man. It's kind of being more empowering for the woman, and people seem to be a little bit less judgmental of them.

[Melody Thomas]

It is true that over the past few years, there's been a whole lot of TV shows and movies featuring older women with younger male love interests. There was the movie A Family Affair which featured Nicole Kidman and Zac Efron. There was a 16 year age gap between their characters and 20 years between the actors. It's not a very good movie. Don't watch it. There was the Idea of youf featuring 40 year old Celine played by Anne Hathaway and a 24 year old pop star. That one's better. You can watch that one. And the most recent Bridget Jones movie where her love interest was more than 20 years her junior. All of these relationships are presented as aspirational and empowering. On the one hand, older women pursuing younger men does challenge the cultural script that women's value peaks in youth. These shows rewrite the exp narrative which treats middle aged women as invisible and asserts instead that women remain sexually and romantically desirable across their lifespan. And that's something that men have always been granted. But we shouldn't be so dazzled by gender flipping scripts that we stop asking harder questions. The age gap doesn't stop mattering just because the woman is the older one.

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

I don't see people apply that same level of, you know, victimization or that same victimization lens to those guys. And I think that's because people have just kind of always viewed exploitation and power a little bit differently for men and women. Right. There's sort of this assumption that hey, these, these younger guys who are dating these older women, they're not being exploited, they're just lucky.

[Melody Thomas]

You see that applied even in cases where we're talking about completely non consensual interactions between say a teacher and a student. I, it's horrible, but I still hear it. I still hear lucky guy about a high schooler.

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

I hear it happen all the time. And it's disturbing, this idea, this belief that men can't be victims of sexual crimes or that they can't be exploited. And you know, when we're talking about double standards, like there are ways in which double standards disenfranchise or disadvantage women, but also ways in which they disenfranchise men as well.

[Melody Thomas]

This feels like a really good time to introduce our final guest, Matt. He's a 24 year old straight guy, born and raised in Melbourne, the best

[Matt]

city definitely in Australia and arguably in the world.

[Melody Thomas]

Matt grew up in a really open household when it came to conversations about,

[Matt]

well, everything, sex and anatomy and consent and all the things to go in between.

[Melody Thomas]

And while Matt's doing great now, high school was really lonely. He was bullied A lot.

[Matt]

Yeah. Kids are mean. They are so brutal.

[Melody Thomas]

Emmett coped by looking for validation in other places.

[Matt]

Using sex as a coping mechanism to deal with the lack of intimacy that I was getting from my peers, I think was probably the ultimate underlying cause. If I were to psychoanalyze myself.

[Melody Thomas]

What this looked like for Matt was chatting with girls online and then meeting in real life to hook up, having a fair bit of sex and experiencing a pretty great endorphin rush afterwards, which was inevitably followed by a comedown.

[Matt]

There's this sense of intimacy through sex is gonna somehow fill a void or do something to fulfill yourself, but ultimately, nine out of ten times, it doesn't.

[Melody Thomas]

After high school, things got better for Matt. He got away from his bullies and found his people, but not his person.

[Matt]

I love sex. I hate dating and it's just so

[Melody Thomas]

exhausting, especially dating on the apps and especially dating women younger than him. Think 18, 19.

[Matt]

They're just so immature and they're just so much work and it's like, fuck, you need to get some life experience behind you because your problems are just so annoying.

[Melody Thomas]

All right, Matt, maybe tone that one down a little bit. But it does bring us to the crux of why we're talking with Mat. Because while he's in his 20s, he's dated and slept with women a whole lot older than him and he really enjoys it.

[Matt]

They're comfortable in themselves, they understand what they want and they're not gonna settle for less. They know their self worth and they have something that I can learn off them, whether that be physically or emotionally or intellectually.

[Melody Thomas]

Do you feel specifically attracted to older women? Do you seek older women out on the apps, for example?

[Matt]

I. I wouldn't say that I necessarily seek them out. I think I see more. Instead of looking at a number, I'm looking at more of a maturity and a personality sort of type. And so if someone's 22 and shows that maturity, fantastic. If they're 54 and they show that mentality and maturity, awesome. I don't really care.

[Melody Thomas]

The first time Matt slept with someone who was significantly older than him was when he was still a teenager.

[Acast Announcer]

I would.

[Matt]

Would have been 18, 19, and I think she was mid to late 60s.

[Chris Guillebeau]

Whoa.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Melody Thomas]

That's a massive age gap. And the hookup also happened under false pretenses. Matt tells me the woman's profile picture was at least a decade old, which he only realised after he'd already showed up on her doorstep.

[Matt]

And I remember having the door open and it's like, I'VE definitely been catfished a little bit in this situation. And then just being like, well, just. You have to deal with the consequences of your actions, but obviously that is not something you have to do.

[Melody Thomas]

You can say, do you know what? I've had second thoughts 100%.

[Matt]

You can, you definitely can. But as a people pleaser, I was like, well, I'm here now.

[Chris Guillebeau]

Let's.

[Matt]

Let's make it happen. And so then had some. Had a very awkward, very funny. Yeah, looking back on it, it was like, oh, wow. What. What were you doing?

[Melody Thomas]

Is it funny? I mean, I laughed, but then I stopped myself because I wouldn't laugh if he were female and the catfisher was an old man. I know there's differences physically. She probably wasn't going to overpower him in that moment, but he still felt compelled to go through with it. There were obviously other forces at play beyond muscle mass, but we laugh because of how we've been trained to read. This script taught that a teenage boy with an older woman is a win. Funny, lucky, harmless. Because male desire is assumed to be indiscriminate and male safety is assumed to be a given. If you could go back in time to your 18 year old self who turned up at that door and realized they didn't want to be there but went with it anyway, what advice would you give? Or what's the alternative way that could have gone if you'd been older and had more experience?

[Matt]

I'd probably like, mate, just consent goes both ways. It's not just for women. It's also very much for men or whatever you identify as. Everyone has the right and ability to go, yes, yes, yes, actually, no, I change my mind, no. And then things stop. There's nothing wrong with that. I think that'd be my advice.

[Melody Thomas]

We're suspicious of age gap relationships for good reason. They can and do provide cover, sometimes deliberately, for patterns of grooming and coercive control that are well documented and genuinely harmful. Not all age gaps involve grooming, but grooming almost always involves an age or power gap. And the concern about exploitation in older male, younger female partnerships in particular is stronger, again for really good reason, because older men have, on average, greater accumulated wealth, status and social capital relative to young women, making the vulnerability gradients deeper and more historically entrenched. Our wariness isn't wrong, it just can be a bit of a blunt tool, one that doesn't account for context. There's also a point where our concern can tip over into infantilisation or removing someone's Autonomy sky is 19 and gear that's young, but she could fight in a war. She can smoke cigarettes, buy alcohol, vote in the elections, and be tried as an adult in the criminal justice system. And she's not old enough to pick her own boyfriend. Isn't she in a better position than us to decide whether her relationship's healthy or not?

[Skye]

I think the thing is, like, I never felt unsure. Like, me and my partner started dating. We didn't start dating straight away. We, like, had a little chat, brought up our concerns, went away for a few days, and then came back. Like, you never have to rush things, especially if you're feeling unsure or not confident.

[Melody Thomas]

It's nearly time to wrap up this episode, but before we do, let's go back to Matt one last time because he shared a story which leads really well into the final thing that I want to touch on. Do you feel that you can be open with friends and family and partners, lovers about the variety of age gaps of people that you've hooked up with?

[Matt]

Family? No. But with certain friends and certain people, I'm a very open book. What you see is what you get. And I think communication at the end of the day is. Is the solution to 99 out of a hundred problems. I one partner in particular, she asked me, oh, what's the oldest you've been with? And I, I shared, and I was just like, oh, yeah. And the reaction I got was, don't ever tell anyone that. It just, just, just don't. And that interaction was like, whoa, you've just made me feel bad or gross about doing this. And then being open and sharing it, then that has definitely, subconsciously, probably left a lasting mark of who do I share this with or who do I tell?

[Melody Thomas]

This illustrates something that Dr. Leh Miller found in his research pretty well, which is that the social disapproval surrounding age gap relationships doesn't just make people uncomfortable, it makes them hide. And the hiding part is often harder on the relationship than the gap itself.

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

I did a longitudinal study looking at, you know, what are the effects of relationship secrecy? And one of the things that I found was that when people were keeping their relationship secret, it was more taxing on them as individuals and also more taxing on the relationship. So over time, I actually found that people who were keeping the relationship secret were more likely to break up, and they were also more likely to report feelings of mental and psychological distress. Now, that doesn't happen in all cases, but, you know, for people who acutely feel that bias and really have to work to maintain the secrecy of that relationship, it can be very challenging for

[Melody Thomas]

those who are on the outside of an age gap relationship, looking in friends, family, and who might be judging that relationship because of the age gap and a perceived power imbalance. What would you suggest we do before opening our mouths?

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

Whenever we start weighing in on other people's romantic choices, we're treading on very delicate territory there. Right. Because, you know, people have the autonomy to choose the relationships, the partners that are right for them. And we do well to, you know, kind of minimize the judgment and shaming that we do of other people for their romantic decisions. It's not our place to tell them who they should be with or what type of relationship is appropriate for them. Now, it's another thing. If you see obvious signs of violence or exploitation or coercion or things like that that are happening, that's a different thing where you might want to try and help them to whatever extent possible. But we also need to step back and look at, you know, what is our own lens that we're applying to these relationships. And is this really something that is exploitation or is this about a deeper personal bias that I have toward these relationships? Right. So I was on a radio show recently. The male host was talking a lot about how I would never want one of my daughters to date an older man.

[Melody Thomas]

Man.

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

Right. And if she ever brought home an older man, I would be very upset by that. And, you know, his daughters will make their own choices in terms of the partners that are right for them.

[Melody Thomas]

And as a daughter, I can imagine if my dad had said, never come home with an older man, I know exactly what I would have done.

[Skye]

So good luck with that.

[Matt]

Right.

[Dr. Justin Lehmiller]

You know, there's this thing called reactance.

[Melody Thomas]

If you came here looking for answers or hard and fast rules about, about age gaps when it comes to love, I'm sorry, we don't have them. They still don't exist. But here's what I think when it comes to moving forward. If somebody you love is in an age gap relationship, and both parties are, how did our listener put it? Grown ass adults, it might be time to stop levelling judgment their way. If the relationship's actually good, all your judgment will do is isolate your loved one. And if the relationship is bad, you're isolating your loved one and leaving them in a toxic situation with no one to turn to. Yes, it's true that age gap relationships can hold power imbalances, but it doesn't mean they always do. Sometimes you just fall for someone who's younger or older than you. By the way, before we wrap up completely, I did look into the half your age plus seven rule, which, which I've used so much in my own life. Like after I watched the Billie Eilish concert documentary and was trying to figure

[Skye]

out if it was okay to have

[Melody Thomas]

the feelings I was feeling about her. It's not. She's 24. That does not fly according to that rule. But it actually comes from a 1901 guide to love called Her Royal Highness Woman and His Majesty Cupid. It was written by French author Max o', Rell and he was trying to figure out in the book the ideal age for a bride. Half the groom's age plus seven is apparently ideal. In the very next paragraph he says men should never marry a woman who's richer, taller, or older than them. So this role that we've been casually deploying as a neutral yardstick for a century was designed from the start to serve male interests. Classic. See you next time, friends. Coming up next in the Good Sex Project, It's a hard episode, but a necessary one. We'll be hearing from a couple of incredible survivors about the ways that abuse, coercion and assault have impacted their lives.

[Age Gap Relationship Listener 2]

I still don't understand how I shrank in that way.

[Melody Thomas]

Mum was like, you're a shell of yourself. And Jiminika Eborn, also known as the Trauma Queen, she is practical advice for recovery and more than a few mic dropping truths.

[Age Gap Relationship Listener 2]

None of this is on you. That shame and guilt should be upon the person that decided to invade your space and harm you.

[Melody Thomas]

Plus a bonus episode featuring gorgeous writers sharing letters to their libido for those who weren't lucky enough to hear them in real life at our Wellington launch. If you loved this episode, please do share it with of friends, family, or even complete strangers. You can tell that person at the sauna or your book club or the cafe or the bathroom line at the gig all about this amazing podcast and we would really appreciate it. The Good Sex Project was made by PopSoc Media. It was written and developed by me, Melody Thomas. Our producer and audio editor is Kirsten Johnstone. Co producers are Kay He Heke and Elena Bates. Phil Brownlee recorded me in the studio and our sound mix is by Mark Chesterman. Paddy Fred did the music and some of the sound design. Thank you.

[Acast Announcer]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Chris Guillebeau]

A photographer in Texas earns an extra $47,000 a year shooting Star wars cosplay portraits. A teacher in Maryland turns her woodworking hobby into a five figure side income without leaving the classroom. And a couple in Pennsylvania will rent you backyard chickens for the season so you can try the egg laying life without commitment. My name is Chris Guillebeau. I'm the host of side Hustle School. I share these kinds of stories every single day, in detail, with full transparency about the numbers. The point isn't just to inspire you, it's to show you what's possible. Proof that ordinary people are quietly building extra income in surprising ways, including a few ideas you can borrow less than 10 minutes a day, every day. Subscribe or follow side Hustle School wherever you get your podcasts or find us directly at sidehustleschool. Com.

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Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast. Com.