← The Good Sex Project
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Danny Pellegrino
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Netsafe Intro
Kia Ora Koutou this episode discusses image based sexual abuse including AI generated deepfake porn and sextortion. Suicide is also mentioned briefly. If you or someone you know needs support, Netsafe can help you@netsafe.org NZ this podcast was made with the support of New Zealand On Air.
- [02:36]
Melody Thomas
Welcome back to the Good Sex Project. I'm Melody Thomas and this bonus episode is a really important one. I'm going to be talking with Sean Lyons. He's the Chief Online Safety Officer at netsafe, the New Zealand non profit dedicated to keeping Kiwis safe online and we are going to get into territory that's
- [02:55]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
a bit confronting because while existing on
- [02:58]
Melody Thomas
the Internet has always come with some degree of risk. AI has really upped the ante. All it takes is one photo of your face and in less time than it takes to make a cup of tea, someone can generate a convincing, explicit image of you that you never took, never consented to and never even knew existed until it was out there. So how do we navigate this? How do we protect our kids when
- [03:22]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
the threats are things we didn't even
- [03:24]
Melody Thomas
have words for five years ago? What's genuinely dangerous and what's just noise? And if something does happen to you or to someone you love, what. What can you actually do about it? Before we dive in, just a quick note. When Sean and I recorded this conversation, New Zealand had no law that explicitly criminalised the creation or sharing of sexual deepfakes. And you're going to hear him talk about that gap. Since then, things are moving and quickly. The deepfake Digital Harm and Exploitation Bill passed its first reading unanimously in Parliament in May this year year and it's now before select committee, meaning all New Zealanders can have a say. Submissions are due on June 19th and we'll put a link so that you can submit in the show Notes. I started this interview by asking Sha about how the nature of digital harm has begun to shift in recent years.
- [04:19]
Sean Lyons
Increasingly, unfortunately, it's not just about shaming and embarrassing people for things that they've done, but increasingly the tools are at people's disposal to fabricate scenarios and create harm that's based in no way, shape or form on the activities of individuals, but using the increasingly democratized technology that's at people's disposal to unfortunately let the worst of their imaginations run wild when it comes to trying to create harm scenarios.
- [04:46]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
So that leads us really well into deep fakes. Gone are the days where, you know, the response to a leak of nudes is, well, you shouldn't be putting that stuff on the Internet. Right. Like, that was never a great response, but that is now over and this could be your school photo on your high school website and that can still be utilised in that way. That is an entirely different landscape that we're looking at.
- [05:11]
Sean Lyons
Yeah. Much more difficult to interpret for a person whether or not that is a real or unreal image. And I think most worrying for me in that respect is the threat or the feeling that somebody might be able to do something like this is now as powerful and pertinent as the production of that image. So people experience extreme anxiety and fear based on the idea that somebody who is motivated enough will do this. It also changes very much people's ability to kind of take a deep breath and stand strong in the face of threat, accusation or blackmail and say, you know what? No. Once upon a time you could say no, knowing that there was no image or that somebody couldn't really produce anything plausible or realistic and that nobody that you, you know would ever believe that the output was you. But people face a very different landscape now. People face a scenario where they might be saying, I want to say no, but I don't know that my father, mother, brother, sister, boss isn't going to see that image and say, well, obviously I don't believe that they did that, but I'm, you know, I've got to believe my eyes. I'm seeing this.
- [06:23]
Melody Thomas
Does the law in New Zealand protect them or are we still at a
- [06:28]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
point where this kind of imagery isn't covered by our current law?
- [06:34]
Sean Lyons
We have legislation that provides protection and there are different legislations in this space. But I want to talk about the part that's most closely associated with the work that we do here at netsafe, and that's the civil sanctions under the Harmful Digital Communications Act. So that's a piece of legislation that is there to give us all redress where we believe we are harmed by communications that are digital. Now, that legislation doesn't need to understand the way in which a harmful piece of digital content was created. It doesn't have to be real, if you like, because what that act is about is about removing harmful content in good time in order to reduce the amount of harm and the impact that has. Because we know that the amount of time that harmful content is up, is spread, is available to others. The amount of harm that an individual suffers increases exponentially. As individuals, if we've been harmed by digital content, we shouldn't just sit back and accept it because we perceive there's nothing that can be done. There are always opportunities and avenues to explore before we accept the harm that people perpetrate.
- [07:41]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
I'm wondering, Sean, if, you know, I imagine there are some people who have never experienced anything like this themselves or who can't imagine a situation in which they would find themselves here, who might see something like deep fakes is not that big a deal. It's not real. Like, how much harm does it really cause you?
- [08:03]
Sean Lyons
There's a terrible term that has become familiar to many people and is used a lot. And there's a money in the jar device here at netsafe, if anybody ever uses it, which is revenge pornography. In terms of what's actually going on here. It is the most ridiculous phrase to describe what's going on. There is no revenge that assumes that people are the victim of something because they did something to somebody else in the first place. It's also not pornography. I mean, pornography is a format of media where some people participate and they do so knowingly. What we're really talking about here is situations where somebody will create an image, a sexualized image of somebody. If you add to that the concept of somebody who doesn't have any of those images because they were never created, but decides to create, you know, long form video of another person engaging in sexual acts that somebody would not want, and then chooses to share it with a public group, let's say a WhatsApp group that everybody's in. I think people need to try and, you know, take that one in for a second and think about what the impact might be. Add to that perhaps then sent directly to somebody's boss at work, sent to a community leader, a church minister, a sports club that you volunteer at the weekend because you're a coach of a youth team and suddenly that organization has been given this video. Now you would hope that everybody would realize what that was and would realize that that person was the, the victim of an awful, awful situation, Potentially a crime. But in many cases people will see these things and be shocked and horrified and, and it will permanently alter the way that they feel about the, the person who didn't motivate this in any way. There's nothing to be ashamed of, but finds themselves in that position and, and those impacts, whether or not they're real, are perceived by the person that finds themselves on that. People are afraid to go out of the house. People withdraw from activities that they previously took part in because they can't face the shame. Even if people realize that they were the victim of the target of a criminal activity. These are gigantic impacts, gigantic emotional and psychological impacts that have on people. For many people, these are some of the worst moments of their lives to that point.
- [10:30]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
How common are these things? How many reports are you seeing? Obviously you'll be seeing fewer than there actually are. Fewer incidences than there actually are.
- [10:38]
Sean Lyons
Yeah, it is definitely increasing. And you're quite right to point out that in terms of what we see, I think this category of harm, probably more than just about any other, carries such a shame burden that I think we're probably seeing a much lower report than people experience. But we would see multiple thousands of reports of intimate image abuse reported to NETSAFE each year. There's Also an increasing number of the kind of the sextortion there, either real or fake sextortion that sits adjacent to this.
- [11:16]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
So sextortion is the creation of a relationship, whether that's just a one off chat room relationship or an ongoing relationship that then leads the victim to maybe create a sexual image of themselves that is shared and used as blackmail. Although as we now know, you don't actually need to create that intimate image in order to be blackmailed.
- [11:38]
Sean Lyons
Exactly. And a few years ago the entire focus was about encouraging somebody to do something sexual on camera. Now effectively all you need is a, you know, a couple of seconds of somebody in a, in a situation, a headshot of somebody, an appropriate background, and you can create that video without the need for them to actually engage in that. Ten years ago or so, I think we saw the first, what we were calling for a while, fake sextion, which is basically, I'm going to release it. There was no video, there was no recording. It was a, it was an email that was sent, you know, scattergun. But it absolutely freaked people out and people paid. But that has manifested into something that becomes even more difficult to kind of account for because people's perception is, well, you say you've got a video, maybe you've just made a video and maybe you've made that video from my profile picture on a social network. So now I'm actually worried. So it is something that is affecting not just a few New Zealanders every year, something that's affecting thousands of us.
- [12:39]
Melody Thomas
And in terms of the demographics, is this mainly younger people?
- [12:43]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
Is it?
- [12:44]
Melody Thomas
I mean, I imagine sextortion is maybe targeted towards young men.
- [12:49]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
I might be wrong there. Yeah, I think the stories that I've heard are about young men and often really tragic stories where those young men then take their lives because they're so terrified about the outcomes of this.
- [13:00]
Sean Lyons
Yeah, the numbers and this kind of gender focus can drift and shift over time. There was a shift very much from young women that were the focus. And at that time the payoff from sextortion was the production of more content. So the, the initial sextortion was we've got this picture. So make more and make ever increasingly more explicit content. There was definitely a shift at the point where the sextortion moved to a more direct financial model. So the pay me thousands of dollars to stop the production or the, the share of those images. We saw a shift at that time from young females to, to young males. There's a fairly even split in terms of, of what goes on or what's reported here to net safe across the genders. There's actually a fairly even split across ages.
- [13:49]
Hayden
Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fanfellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.
- [13:57]
Stephen
And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goo can call me the Smash Daddy.
- [14:01]
Hayden
And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.
- [14:10]
Stephen
That's right. Hei hei. So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.
- [14:15]
Hayden
And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.
- [14:22]
Stephen
News flash, I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy Fan fellows wherever you get your podcasts.
- [14:29]
Jack Myers
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- [15:06]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
okay, so another area of digital harm that the wider public
- [15:12]
Melody Thomas
has been hearing a little bit about
- [15:14]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
is the use of notify apps, and specifically the use of those apps within a school kind of situation. Is this also something that you're seeing reported?
- [15:25]
Sean Lyons
It's something that we are involved in conversations about quite regularly. We're slightly less focused on the how they got there and more on the harm. But but certainly the democratization of the technology with the ease in which people can get to that technology. This is a huge part of what we're talking about here. I mean, if you think about the technology involved in IT in order to do this, and then if you've been around the traps a few years like me, and think about what that would have required even five years ago in order to create output as convincing as that, you'd have been talking about multiple skilled professionals, you'd have been talking about giant rooms full of computers that could do that, and you'd be talking about processes of trial and error that would have taken hours and hours. What you're now doing is being, you know, in seconds, often being Given multiple options for what would you like this to contain?
- [16:18]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
What's the excuse for like, oh, no, we've created this Nudify app for this reason. It's just being misappropriated.
- [16:25]
Sean Lyons
Yeah. I think that the defense that those people would provide are that should I want to improve how I look in my swimming costume or should I want to produce a nude image of me, that I would use a Nudify app and then I would have control over how I look in the same way that I might apply a filter. And it's an increasingly difficult situation for us to try and control by saying, here is the locus of the problem, that if we ban these apps, then we're good. And look, this is something that we've seen since the dawn of technology. We see it utilized well, we see bad actors working out how it can be utilized for harm. We see that harm occurring, we see people then focused on the technology itself and we say block it and ban it and somebody moves that technology into something else and the harm continues to perpetrate. And that's not to say platforms don't have a responsibility, because they absolutely do. They've got a huge responsibility in this. But the idea of just focusing on a platform to reduce a harm can sometimes end up very quickly as wasted effort and wasted endeavour, as that harm just metamorphoses and moves to another platform that isn't captured by our efforts and our intentions.
- [17:42]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
When it comes to perpetrators of this harm, is that also wide ranging or are there things you can say about the types of people who will do this?
- [17:53]
Sean Lyons
For many people that come to netsafe looking for assistance or trying to work out what to do, their primary focus is in the kind of the removal of the content. They want the stuff gone. For many people, their interest isn't in the perpetrator. It may be through other services they use, but certainly where we are. But I mean, I think there are two groups that we are quite familiar with and one is the people that people know, maybe the pseudo anonymous, the people that will mask who they are to create that harm. But often it's people who are known to people, people within relationships, people who have had relationships that have ended, people who might be in extended family positions, who have seen or perceive the harm that one person has done to someone that they care about that might be seeking to create some harm themselves. So those are quite common scenarios. The other group, the broader scale exploitation of people, they're often that kind of sextortion side of things. These are organized crime groups. These are not individual entities. These are operations that seem to be able to work around the clock, often from multiple disparate locations. These are people that use data breaches that have been purchased from, you know, the darker sides of the Internet, that then use those to kind of send out random messages to individuals or try and coerce individuals into some kind of connection in order to exploit them.
- [19:18]
Melody Thomas
Gosh.
- [19:18]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
And is that a new and or developing trend?
- [19:23]
Sean Lyons
It's definitely developing, kind of the scam centers, financial scams, et cetera. Yeah, these are financially successful. And while they are, then people that have an interest in making money by criminal means will have an interest in doing that. And so people that have previously engaged in other forms of criminal money raising are involved in this because it's profitable and unfortunately, relatively low risk. If you compare it to, you know, the movement of drugs and guns across a border, this kind of activity is probably of a much lower risk.
- [19:57]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
Let's focus now then on somebody who has been a victim of this kind of harm and has maybe just discovered it. What is the best way to act and how is netsafe able to help?
- [20:11]
Sean Lyons
The very first thing is something that's so much easier said than done, but it's to stop and take a deep breath. I think trying to keep some perspective for yourself in that you are the target here of something that is a criminal endeavor, that despite what is being said and you know, even in a situation where some of these images may be public and you may be looking at comments made by others who aren't connected to it, that keeping a perspective on exactly who you are and what is going on here, and that you are the target of someone that sought to create harm is so important, and this is a difficult one to suggest, but really important is getting people to capture as much evidence of what is going on in that moment in time as they can. If people are able to take screenshots of what they've seen or found, if they're able to write down URLs, times, dates, usernames of people involved in these scenarios, Individuals that are involved in creating this kind of harm have a tendency to appear and disappear, or at least try and make themselves appear and disappear. So grabbing those URLs, those usernames, are really important. Seeking some support from people around you is absolutely vital. Don't do this alone. The greatest tool in the arsenal of people that try and harm you in this way is the. Is knowing the shame and embarrassment that people feel. The one thing I wish, if we could combat in One foul swoop, it would be exactly that. That there is no shame in being the victim of an attempt to create deliberate harm for somebody. Be that an image that somebody did create and was shared inappropriately, or be that something that was manufactured. We don't hear about a burglary and immediately talk to someone about their rubbish locks. We don't do that. We have sympathy, we have empathy, we have understanding for someone who finds themselves in that position. And we need to start doing that so much more for people who find themselves in this position and then start to contact the organizations that can potentially assist you in this. Now, that might be the platform that it's on. Once you've got those screenshots, once you've got the evidence, then report the content, report the profile that's done it. If you think it's criminal activity that somebody's engaged in, contact the police, let them know what's going on. If you're unsure of what to do, then talk to an organization like us. Netsafe is there to support people who find themselves in this position, to find the right avenue through it. If you're a young person and you go to somebody and you seek help and they are sympathetic and empathetic, but they don't know what to do, that's great, but keep going until you can find someone that will help you. Really, this is one of those things that just. We don't want anybody to suffer in this way alone. It's vital that people get the help because the consequences can be devastating. And that's the last thing we or anybody wants to see from a situation that we know people can be helped with.
- [23:11]
Melody Thomas
We know this isn't the kind of
- [23:13]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
harm that is perpetrated explicitly against young people. But we also know that some of the ways in which young people will be especially vulnerable to this kind of harm. And there will be parents listening who want to know what they can do to help protect their kids. When it comes to the potential for
- [23:30]
Melody Thomas
online digital harm, do you have advice there for parents?
- [23:35]
Sean Lyons
Absolutely. When young people do talk to them, it is such a big step generally in a young person's confidence and capability in dealing with these situations. If they reach out to their parents at that point, parents are going to pat themselves on the back really briefly because that's a big deal that they've chosen to do that. But it is a brief pat on the back because after that it is, you've absolutely got work to do. And some parents, this is not the world that they necessarily understand and that's totally fine, too. But at that point, it is about them seeking the right support. Now, that might be the particularly technologically savvy auntie in the family, the family friend who used to be a cop and whoever that is. If it's not you, find them, talk to them, bring them and involve them, and then find the agencies. Come to us if you're unsure. But time so, so critical in these situations, and especially the time period between when young people make these disclosures and when action starts to happen. Because we need young people as part of this to believe that there are resolutions, to believe that it's getting better from the minute they chose to speak up. We know that young people generally, first place they go to are their peers, and they go there quite deliberately because they know that their peers have experience in these situations, are likely to be sympathetic, and may have techniques that they've tried before to resolve it. But when those options run out, that's when they do find the significant trusted adult. And that's when we've got to act. We've got to act really quickly. Because the other thing to bear in mind is that probably means they've exhausted everything that they know how to do. So it's not like at the start of the process, they're already getting close to the, you know, the end of the road in terms of what it is they can see as a. As a solution. And, and we've also got about to put aside for a second, as a parent, the kind of, why. Why us? Why me? Why you? How did you get here? There will be situations, undoubtedly, that young people will find themselves in, where they mention a platform that you might not know that they were on, or they will talk about an activity that you didn't know that they were engaged in. But now is not the time to deal with that, that we deal with this situation today in a way that. That helps move young people forward.
- [25:56]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
Oh, it made me a bit emotional just then, Sean, thinking about that young person who's just kind of already, you know, by the time they get to you, they're already feeling like this thing is the outcome can't be changed, that it's hopeless, that. Yeah, yeah.
- [26:11]
Sean Lyons
And. And that's a big part of what we do, and that's the entire community around young people in this thing is to. Is to replace that feeling of hopelessness with the feeling of support that we're all around you. We're not judging you, you know, and. And that then takes away so much of what challenges young people around what's about to happen to them when they're being threatened in this way.
- [26:32]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
When it comes to, you know, black male sextortion, I'm just curious, how often does paying what is being asked of you or doing what is being asked of you actually result in an end to the harm in the communication?
- [26:46]
Sean Lyons
I've seen a couple of things from the police that have said and law enforcement across the globe. There is absolutely no evidence that paying changes the outcome. If we're talking about people who are engaged in criminal endeavor, relying on their moral fortitude to do what they've contracted with you to do in terms of payment and imagery, I think that's pretty thin defense. And I think we should all assume that the likelihood of them following through on whatever they promise you. Let's go with zero.
- [27:18]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
It is feeling increasingly like the only way to protect ourselves is to remove ourselves entirely from the Internet. Is that what we're looking at here in terms of protection in this new landscape?
- [27:29]
Sean Lyons
I do remember many years ago, it wasn't in this country, but a law enforcement official once saying, I think the time has come to have a conversation about switching off the Internet. And I remember it was a very interesting thought at the time. The trouble is, like we said at the start, there are so many things now that we could not do efficiently or properly, or sometimes in some cases even at all, if it wasn't for our connection to this technology. I don't think it's a time to talk about turning off the Internet, but I do think it is the time to start talking about the kinds of guardrails that are being built into the technology at the very root of that technology itself. It is time to apply the pressure on companies that provide the tools which are then utilized by bad actors to hurt us, to say, what do you do to protect us from this hurt? And if the answer increasingly is we don't do anything at all, then it is time to start voting with our feet and finding spaces on the Internet where we know we can be better protected, at least where those organizations have our best interests at heart and are doing as much as they can. I mean, there is no such thing as entirely safe, but at least safer. At least places where they're cognizant of the potential harms and are doing what it is that they can to protect us in exchange for our business. And I think that's a really important thing that we should all keep in mind.
- [28:53]
Melody Thomas
Thank you so much, Sean. That was Sean Lyons from Netsafe, New Zealand. I found that conversation really helpful and really moving, especially the part where Sean talked about young people and how when they finally reach out to a trusted
- [29:08]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
adult, they've usually exhausted every other option by that point.
- [29:13]
Melody Thomas
If you or someone you know needs support around online harm, image based abuse or sextortion, you can reach out to netsafe@netsafe.org nz they've got a helpline live chat and they are genuinely there to help, not to judge. And if this episode prompted a conversation
- [29:31]
Melody Thomas (interviewer)
in your house with your kids, your
- [29:33]
Melody Thomas
partner or your friends, that's exactly what we hoped it would do. Please share it more widely. You never know who might need to hear it. Thanks so much and take care of yourselves. The Good Sex Project was made by PopSoc Media. It was written and developed by me, Melody Tom. Our producer and audio editor is Kirsten Johnstone. Co producers are Kay Hecke and Elena Bates. Phil Brownlee recorded me in the studio and our sound mix is by Mark Chesterman. Paddy Fred did the music and some of the sound design. Thank you.
- [30:23]
Stephen
What makes a leader worth following?
- [30:25]
Jack Myers
What should you really care about in your job? As technology is changing so quickly, is
- [30:30]
Stephen
it just gonna be about machines talking to other machines? I mean, should you quit your job and start something on your own? What would that take?
- [30:36]
Jack Myers
What does success and risk look like when we're all at the starting gate together?
- [30:41]
Stephen
These are the questions we answer each week on Lead Human with Jack Myers and Tim Spengler.
- [30:46]
Jack Myers
Join us each week and subscribe at your favorite podcast platform and YouTube.
- [30:51]
Stephen
We'll tell stories, we'll hear from some of the best, and we'll try to figure this out together. To realize the future America needs. We understand what's needed from us to face each threat head on. We've earned our place in the fight for our nation's future. We are Marines. We were made for this.
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Chris Guillebeau
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Acast Announcer
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