BONUS: Live Masterclass with Nic Beets and Verity Thom

Summary

The Good Sex Project – BONUS: Live Masterclass with Nic Beets and Verity Thom
Recorded live in Auckland in partnership with Ensemble Magazine – September 30, 2024

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Episode Overview

This special bonus episode of The Good Sex Project features a live “Pleasure Masterclass” hosted by Melody Thomas with guests Nic Beets and Verity Thom, both experienced sex and relationship therapists (and married to each other). The focus is a candid, empowering exploration of pleasure in our lives—why it matters, how to embrace it, and how to navigate the very real barriers that can stand in our way, such as expectations, shame, domesticity, and stress. The discussion covers both the bigger cultural context and highly practical, evidence-based advice for individuals and couples, punctuated by audience questions and memorable personal insights.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Pleasure Matters (01:11–04:05)

• Pleasure as Radical & Political:
  Verity opens by framing pleasure as a radical, political act in a world that often pushes conformity and productivity.

  “Being true to yourself and knowing what your pleasure is, is so radical… pleasure is quite political, I think, and quite radical in these times.” – Verity (02:18)

• Nourishment in Tough Times:
  Nic emphasizes that pleasure is essential for soul-nourishment, especially amid global stress.

  “…Our soul needs feeding as much as our body. Pleasure is often a guide to what is good for our soul.” – Nic (02:46)

• Broadening the Definition of Pleasure:
  The panel clarifies that pleasure extends beyond sex to simple daily joys—time with friends, sunshine, laughter.

2. Barriers to Pleasure & Breaking Through (04:05–11:03)

• The Trap of Expectations:
  The group discusses how societal and cultural “shoulds” distort what good sex looks like and feels like.

  “Expectations are other people's ideas about what's good for you and you need to work out what's good for you.” – Nic (05:14)

• Unlearning & Reclaiming Your Sex Life:
  Both experts stress the importance of unpacking early messages about sex—even professionals need to revisit their own internalized beliefs.

  “Liberating yourself from the notions and the expectations is… essential, really.” – Verity (05:02)

• Sexual Empowerment Looks Different for Everyone:
  Melody points out that “highly sexualized” models of empowerment suit some people, but not all, and everyone’s version of pleasure or sensuality is valid.

• Navigating Difference in Relationships:
  Differences in desire/frequency are normal, and negotiation is essential, not a sign of failure.

  “The best sex… is when two people are talking and throwing all their ideas in and… ironing out the wrinkles.” – Verity (10:34)

3. Debunking the Myths: Communication & Intimacy (11:03–14:57)

• Intimacy ≠ Sex:
  The guests clarify that intimacy means vulnerability—showing up, revealing truths, being seen—not necessarily sex.

  “Intimacy… is meant [to mean] emotional intimacy… Letting you see what’s going on beneath the surface. Dropping my guard… That’s intimacy. And sex can be like that, doesn’t have to be.” – Nic (11:44)

• Why Vulnerability Matters:
  Facing the risk of being truly seen can be uncomfortable, but is crucial for deeper pleasure and connection.

• Practical Communication for Better Sex:

  • For casual sex: Discuss desires and boundaries before clothes come off. It’s actually sexy, not clinical, to talk candidly.

    “So good casual sex is easier with someone that you can talk a little bit with.” – Verity (14:08)

  • For long-term relationships:
    Pick a good moment (not in bed), start gently, and frame requests as wanting more together.

    “…being able to say, look, I want to talk about our sex life, and I really want to make it better. And I’ve been scared to have this conversation…” – Nic (18:54)

  • Gentle Startup (from Dr. John Gottman): Begin with positivity and openness, not blame.

• Building Skills Outside the Bedroom:
  Advocate for yourself more in daily life to get better at speaking up sexually.

  “If you don’t have healthy entitlement and good boundaries in other areas, you’re sure as heck not going to have it [in the bedroom].” – Verity (16:17)

4. Consent & Detailed Communication (19:40–20:41)

• Drawing from BDSM communities, the speakers note how explicit, collaborative consent-talk can lead to hotter, better sex—not the reverse.

  “Anticipation makes things hot.” – Nic (20:23)

5. Shame and Pleasure (20:41–24:56)

• Shame as a Barrier:
  Shame isolates and blocks connection. It manifests as “I’m not good enough… unlovable… unwanted.”

  “Brene Brown would say that we’re in an epidemic of ‘I’m not enough’…” – Verity (21:46)

• Antidote is Connection:
  Being vulnerable and met with kindness erodes shame, while healthy entitlement is key.

  “You cannot have good sex unless you want sex for yourself. Unless you want the pleasure for yourself and believe yourself deserving.” – Verity (24:39)

• The Notion of ‘Good Selfishness’:
  It’s necessary to show up and say what you want—well-being (including sexual wellbeing) depends on it.

• Gendered Challenges:
  Women and marginalized people often experience “under-entitlement”—feeling they can’t ask for what they want.

6. Domesticity, Everyday Life, and Pleasure (25:05–30:36)

• Day-to-Day Stress is a Barrier:
  The group acknowledges the real constraints of work and family—but highlights “tiny acts of sensuosity” as vital.

  “Trying to just be mindfully present when the sun’s on your back, or gifting yourself those moments of being present to yourself… is a matter of survival, really, to keep going.” – Verity (25:44)

• Self-Compassion Supercharges Pleasure:
  Taking time for gratitude, embodiment, and even anger at cultural narratives about productivity is part of reclaiming pleasure.

• Practical Tools for Pleasure:

  • Massage, audio erotica apps (Dipsy, Quinn)
  • Guided self-touch meditations
  • Slow, sensual self-touch (like applying lotion with music)
  • Dancing, walking, running—movement in nature

  “For a lot of people, dancing, you know… being in your body and movement is…” – Nic (30:20)

7. Reigniting Desire & Navigating Long-Term Relationships (30:44–34:26)

• Yes, Desire Can Return—But Differently:
  It’s a myth that you can “get back” to the honeymoon stage, but you can find new forms of connection and joy—even the best sex of your life, according to late-life research.

  “I think the problem in that sentence may be in the word back… I think you can have something new.” – Nic (31:53)

• Prioritizing and Creating Sex:
  People who report the best sex lives in long-term relationships make it a priority, get creative, and communicate frequently.

  “The people who have… really enjoyable sex lives, they make it a priority. They want it, and they want it badly.” – Nic (33:47)

8. Live Audience Q&A (34:31–41:28)

• Gendered Emotional (and Sexual) Labor in Hetero Relationships:

  • Don’t accept doing all the relational “work”—challenge the structures and set boundaries.

    “Don’t put up with doing a disproportionate amount of the work… Both ends have to change.” – Nic & Verity (35:16–36:43)

    • Appeal to self-interest and clarify limits; don’t make empty threats.

• “How Much Sex Is Enough?”

  • There’s no universally right amount: it’s deeply individual.

  • To locate your true desires, remove shoulds, take breaks, get in tune with your body and boundaries.

    “You’ve got to work you out before you consider the other.” – Verity (38:59) “Life is a series of experiments. We don’t know what’s right… we’ve got to work it out for us.” – Nic (40:45)

• Stress & Sex:

  • Stress kills desire for most; the fix involves (a) examining priorities, (b) giving yourself permission to put sex lower or higher on the priority list depending on your season of life, and (c) creating rituals/thresholds (music, dancing, room prep) to shift modes from stress to pleasure.

  “If now's not the time, now's not the season. That's actually okay… your body will come back…” – Nic (43:31) “Women’s arousal is more indiscriminate than men’s but it’s more distractible… Finding the room next door to being sexual is a really good idea.” – Verity (43:31)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Pleasure as Political:

  “Pleasure is quite political, I think, and quite radical in these times.” – Verity (02:18)

• On Communication in Sex:

  “You wouldn't think twice… about having a conversation about preparing a meal together. Why is… creating a delicious dish of sex together… oh, we shouldn't have to talk about this, really?” – Nic (10:07)

• On Intimacy:

  “Intimacy means… letting you see what is going on beneath the surface. Dropping my guard, making myself vulnerable… That’s intimacy.” – Nic (11:44)

• On Healthy Entitlement for Women:

  “You cannot have good sex unless you want sex for yourself. Unless you want pleasure for yourself and believe yourself deserving.” – Verity (24:39)

• On Stress and Prioritizing Pleasure:

  “Are my priorities serving who I want to be and how I want to live, I think is a really, really important question for everybody.” – Nic (41:55)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:11 – Introduction of guests and the central question: Why is pleasure important?
• 02:18–04:05 – Political and soul-nourishing dimensions of pleasure
• 04:05–05:58 – Cultural expectations and how they damage our sexual wellbeing
• 07:30–08:29 – Permission for quiet, non-performative pleasure
• 10:07–10:34 – Cooking analogy for sexual communication
• 11:44 – Intimacy is not sex
• 14:08–16:27 – Communication skills for casual and long-term sex
• 18:54 – Positive framing for tricky conversations in relationships
• 20:23 – Anticipation and consent as sources of eroticism
• 21:46–24:56 – Shame, its effects, and the role of “good selfishness”
• 25:44–26:32 – Tiny acts of sensuality and mindful presence
• 29:22 – Practical tools: meditation apps, lotion, music, nature
• 31:01–32:41 – Rediscovering desire in long-term relationships
• 34:31–41:28 – Audience Q&A (gendered labor, sexual frequency, stress)
• 43:31 – Navigating stress and sexual desire

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Episode Takeaways

• Pleasure is essential, radical, and deeply personal.
• Let go of “shoulds.” Define what pleasure, sex, and intimacy look like for you, not for society.
• Talking about sex—not just doing it—is what creates the best sex.
• Vulnerability and healthy entitlement are crucial for both pleasure and intimacy.
• Small acts of self-care and body appreciation matter—whether you’re scraping by or thriving.
• Desire ebbs and flows; with intention and creativity, it can be renewed in new forms.
• Stress is real but not insurmountable; boundaries, rituals, and self-compassion are your best tools.

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Hosts and Guests:

• Melody Thomas (Host)
• Nic Beets (Sex and Relationship Therapist)
• Verity Thom (Sex and Relationship Therapist)

For more, follow @goodsexproject on Instagram or contact [e-mail]

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

I'm Eden Scher.

[A]

And I'm Brock Ciarlelli. We played best friends on the Middle and became best friends in real life.

[C]

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Each week we'll recap an episode with behind the scenes stories, guest interviews and what we think now, many years later,

[D]

there's a to dive into.

[C]

So let's get to middling.

[A]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. Kia Ora Koto here's your content warning for this episode. As always, there will be frank discussions of sex and pleasure as well as a bit of swearing. This podcast was made with the support of Nzonair

[B]

Kia Ora this is Melody here with a cheeky little bonus episode of the Good Sex Project to tide you over till the next time we meet. So this is a recording of our Pleasure Masterclass in Auckland in association with Ensemble Magazine, and we invited married sex, sex and relationship therapists Verity Thom and Nick Bates along to offer us some advice and guidance as a means of moving towards pleasure and embracing more pleasure and sensuality in our lives and our relationships. A little aside so that you understand a joke that happens later in the podcast. Verity and Nick also happen to be the parents of Elena Bates, who is my good friend and a producer on this series. And I started in a familiar place if you've heard the rest of season two of the Good Sex Project by asking Nick and Verity why pleasure is important, especially now when there's so much full on difficult and important stuff happening in the world.

[D]

I was just sitting here thinking how the personal is political talking and a lot of conversations I've been having with my daughter about how being true to yourself and knowing what your pleasure is is so radical really, because then we're not little cookie cutters for capitalism. So pleasure is quite political, I think, and quite radical in these times.

[A]

I think the other thing is that leisure is a source of energy and a source of comfort, source of reassurance. And in tough times it's something that is available to us. Simple pleasures matter. And you know, if we're going to go on in tough times, we need nourishment, we need to be fed and you know, our soul needs feeding as much as our body. And I think pleasure is often a guide to what is good for our soul. Not always, but often.

[C]

So let's define what we mean by pleasure because we're Actually, at least currently, we're not just talking about sexual pleasure or bodily pleasure. We are going to dive into that specifically, but we're talking about pleasure as a broader thing. Talking about feeling the sun on your skin and hanging out with a friend and those beautiful things as well, which are free in this very expensive world.

[A]

I think what feels good to you is pleasurable and often it's a guide to what is good for you. So pleasure are those sensations, those experiences that bring you warmth and joy and fun and excitement you don't regret the next day.

[C]

It's mindful pleasure that we're talking about. So let's kick off, we're going to talk about some of the barriers to pleasure and then we're going to get into some kind of practical tips and suggestions for breaking through those barriers to access pleasure. So we'll start with expectation, which is a huge one. And there's so many things underneath this when it comes to sex and love. Often that shows up in terms of what we think our sex lives should look like, how we think our relationships should be, how much sex we should be having. Basically anything with a should in it. Let's start with what good sex looks like, what are we led to expect good sex looks and feels like? And what is the truth of the matter?

[D]

I think Emily Nagoski puts it really well, is almost all the notions. Certainly I can speak for myself, almost all the notions I was raised with weren't really that helpful.

[C]

So she says, both wrong and wrong headed.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, the expectations, I think liberating yourself from the notions and the expectations is, you know, just essential, really.

[A]

Expectations are other people's ideas about what's good for you and you need to work out what's good for you. And that's often quite different from what other people works for other people, you know, and it's like you're, you're allowed to work that out and especially around things like pleasure, what, what brings you joy, you know, it's like, it's really, really personal, it's really, really intimate and freeing yourself from, you know, the expectations that have been opposed to you. I mean, when I wrote the book, I ended up the first chapter I had to write was how everything you've been taught has been wrong. Because every day we're having to undo what people have been taught. That's a big part of our job.

[C]

So even in this line of work, where I've been unpicking these expectations for years now, one that recently got me probably last year Was frequency of sex. I'm in a relationship that's been nearly 20 years long. That's fuck day.

[A]

That's. No, it's wonderful. And he makes great music.

[C]

And he makes great music for the podcast. That's his music.

[A]

Props to Paddy. I think the music on that podcast is so good.

[D]

Sick.

[C]

Where was I?

[B]

Oh, yes.

[C]

So, yeah. So the. How much sex should we be having? Annoyingly, even knowing how. Oh, shit. All the shoulds were. Got me a year ago. Got me like we're not having sex enough or. It's so intrusive and it's sticky, like it sticks in there.

[D]

But it's unpacking where those shoulds come from. There's a lot of work. It's not just easy to say, deconstruct all these notions that we're bombarded with television, books. It's just absolutely constant. So it's. Yeah, it's quite a. You've got to go sort of fuck it, I'm going to be me. I'm just going to be me. And it's a little bit like when you see little kids at preschool, you know, it's almost going back to the little three and four year old that you were and your true essence. And that's. That's courageous.

[C]

Really.

[D]

Yeah. But you can do it really privately, just for you. You don't have to tell anybody. You can just do it with you and your. You or people and it might be

[C]

a quiet thing for you. This is something you've talked with me about as well. I feel like one of those messages we're bombarded with at the moment is sexual empowerment looks a lot of the time one way now, from my point of view, like, we see very highly sexualised people. I love it, it's me, but it's not everyone. And so I think giving people permission to be quietly pleasure seeking or whatever that looks like for them is really

[A]

important or not have it be that important or am I?

[C]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

If, you know, if that works for you and obviously if your partner is different, then you have a difference. And. But that's part of being in any kind of relationship is dealing with difference. That's. That's the, you know, that's the mahi that you have to do if you're going to try and, you know, join your life for some part of your life with other people, you've got to work out your differences and differences around how you approach sex. And that's just the business.

[D]

But if you strip away the notions around it and stop making Each other bad or wrong or terrified about the difference. As you say, it haunts you. Something's not right. And once you get rid of that anxiety, you can start to have a different conversation.

[C]

One of the many things we've inherited from our culture that is not true is that if we have to talk about sex within a relationship, then it's not working. It should be natural. We shouldn't really, you know, like, why is this. Why are we talking about this? This should just happen. So can we. How is that true for anyone? Is that true for some people?

[D]

Yeah. Some people don't have issues or differences or. You're never gonna get through your whole life. The research says that everybody is gonna have two or three serious barriers to their sex life, whether it's just within your own body or relationally or. So, you know, most people are gonna. And so you might have had no sexual issues and then get a heart problem and have erectile problems or. I mean, life is about growing and changing and there's always challenges. And so, you know, it's not a static thing.

[A]

But I do think that, you know, that's one of those notions, that's one of those shoulds. It should be natur. That is really, really unhelpful. And that if you're wanting to cook a meal together, you're probably going to need to talk to each other about, you know, who's doing what, you know, who's chopping the cabbage and you know,

[C]

who's chopping the cabbage wrong, you mean?

[A]

No, you know, and it's like, you know, how, finally, how finely do you want the cabbage chopped, darling? I mean, it's like, you wouldn't think twice, hopefully, about having a conversation about preparing a meal together. And it's like, why is. Why is, you know, creating a delicious dish of sex together? Any scene is somehow. Oh, we shouldn't have to talk about this, really. Okay.

[D]

The best sex, a lot of the best sex is when you two people are talking and throwing all their ideas in and, yeah, lining out the wrinkles.

[A]

That's kinky.

[C]

A little bit of heat playing. The first audience question we got ahead of time from Ensemble, which I think is a good one, was, does intimacy have to mean sex?

[E]

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[A]

Okay, short answer.

[E]

No.

[A]

And it's also no. I mean, I think it's. It's a real pain that intimacy has become a euphemism for sex. If you do our job, it didn't used to be like 20, 30 years ago, intimacy, which is meant, you know, emotional intimacy. Now we want to talk with our clients about intimacy, but it's like, oh, you know, we have to kind of clarify. I don't mean sex, you know, I mean intimacy. I mean into me. See? Letting you see what is going on beneath the surface. Dropping my guard, making myself vulnerable to you. That's intimacy. And sex can be like that doesn't have to be. Doesn't have to be like that at all.

[D]

And it's okay. It doesn't pay for it not to be.

[F]

Yeah.

[C]

So as you state it as vulnerability, as letting your guard down can be an uncomfortable process. It can be, I think very often,

[A]

very often making yourself vulnerable is a bit, you know, anxiety provoking.

[C]

So why is it worth it? Especially in terms of pleasure and the pleasure that we can access on the other side of that intimacy and that vulnerability.

[D]

Yeah. If you don't ever risk letting yourself be known, you can't be met. So it's like you have to do a bit of uncomfortable stuff sometimes to get even greater pleasure. And so once you learn that cycle, once you do it once, and then you get more pleasure. But taking that risk and then learning more, making better love, having more pleasure. So even though it sounds like being uncomfortable contradicts pleasure, but it doesn't sort of dance together a little bit.

[C]

And practically, what are we talking about? So let's get down to actual practicalities here for a second. If people are wanting to potentially search for more intimacy, connect more with a partner or with partners in order to

[D]

access more pleasure, well, it depends on your relationship with the person. There could be about 100 different answers to that depending on.

[C]

Okay, let's just break it down to two. Let's do a casual sex version. First scenario. Hi, I can't wait. We're gonna have casual sex. I wanna tell you how I like to have casual sex, but I'm too scared to.

[A]

Well, there's this great podcast that says if you wanna have good casual sex, you have to talk about what you're into. Yeah.

[D]

So good casual sex is easier with someone that you can talk a little bit with. So it might be quite good as, you know, what are you into? So a little bit of that chat maybe before you're kind of in bed

[C]

with all your clothes off, even over text beforehand.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. And in a way, you know, Grindr's a bit more helpful because you get a little bit of what someone's into. Although that can be bullshit because it's not actually what the person's. But yeah, so talking a little bit before you're kind of in there with your clothes off going, what am I going to say?

[A]

You know, things like, you know, tone, you know, tone and energy and tempo. It's not just, you know, slot A and tab B. It's not that. It's. It's also like, you know, the kind of vibe you're into. That kind of stuff really makes a difference. And, you know, that is a conversation you can have with a stranger and

[D]

knowing that's kind of cool that you're being cool. It can be sophisticated to be like, okay, what are we going to do here? These are my ideas. What do you think? And it can be hard to make our ideas.

[A]

What are you in turn.

[C]

Yeah, it can be hard.

[A]

It's not a bad question, Lena.

[D]

Your dad just asked me that.

[A]

Sorry, Lena, but you have to be

[D]

at ease with yourself to be that confident, don't you? You have to kind of say, this is a really good thing, you know, for us to get it on really well. We're going to do a bit of this talk and maybe practice doing it. And it might feel a bit weird the first time. And if the person does not want to have it, they're not who I want to have casual sex with.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So, you know, like, that's a good way to suss someone out when you're flirting. And if they don't want to talk about it and they just want to jump you, well, no thanks.

[C]

Unless that's your thing. Unless that's exactly what you want.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

So.

[A]

And I mean, not all of it is necessarily done through words, but there needs to be really, you know, clear communication about what is okay and what is not okay.

[C]

One of my favourite tips for how to speak up more during sex was just that I received through making the podcast was to just advocate for yourself more in non sexual situations. So I've gotten really good at being like, this wasn't the Coffee I ordered.

[A]

But practice makes perfect, right?

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is it. If you. If you don't have healthy entitlement and good boundaries in other areas, you're sure as heck not going to have it.

[A]

And then we get into the kind of the real therapy part, where often, you know, there are reasons why we struggle with that, and they're often to do with our background and our upbringing and what's been done to us and what's been taught to us. You know, shame and all that.

[C]

Gender.

[A]

Yeah. So, yeah, gender roles. Yes, absolutely.

[C]

Okay, so now let's imagine that we've been in a relationship for, like, 10 years and our sex is good. But there's a thing that I want to bring up, and I'm too scared to bring it up because I don't want you to think that you're bad.

[D]

It's particularly tricky if they've been doing. You've been doing it with them for a while and you haven't had the guess.

[C]

I remember the first time somebody said to me, like, you think that talking to someone about what you want in a casual situation is harder. It only gets harder. You think it gets easier because of how close you get, how well you know each other. But there is so much more at stake that actually having conversations earlier is generally a good way to go. Okay, so we haven't done that. We didn't listen to the podcast. It's been 10 years now. We're going to be brave and, well,

[D]

a bit of prep. So pick your moment and you know your partner and you know a good time. So probably not when you. Again, when you're in bed or you're about to be sexual or as they're doing it in bed is not a good time to do it. So picking a bit of a time and, you know, preempting it and say, look, I want to have a conversation and we haven't talked. Usually it'll be like we haven't talked much about sex lately. How about we get really brave? Maybe talk about a few things you want to try or do that we're not doing or anything that's not working for you or not working for me. And so they've got a bit of warning. They can think about it and saying when you do like it. So tweaking the nipples, that's one that we had to sort out. Right. It's like they can't tell us more. We don't mind.

[A]

You know, I thought we weren't doing personal disclosure tonight.

[E]

No.

[D]

So, you know, things Change over time as well. Right. That's why something you might have loved changes. And then I don't love it at all, or I don't love it at this time of the month. So when do you enjoy having your nipples stimulated and when don't you? And it can change. And so sometimes saying, look, I just want to say, this is when I really love it.

[A]

I think the frame up, you know,

[D]

frame up and warm up.

[A]

Frame up and warm up. And the research of Dr. John Gottman, you know, about, you know, having a positive startup and a gentle startup is, you know, so important for conversations. And so being able to say, look, I want to talk about our sex life, and I really want to make it better. And I've been scared to have this conversation because I'm afraid that you're going to hear me wrong. I'm scared that you're going to hear criticism. And what I want is more with you. More with you. I love you and I want to make things better with you. So that giving people a heads up, this is where I'm coming from. I think it's really important for those difficult conversations, that positive spin.

[D]

It's really important. It's because I want this. Cause I want you so much, and I want it to be great.

[C]

Yeah. I want us to last and do this thing that's really hard. Something you hear when you talk about consent or you talk about talking about sex more is, you know, this reaction of, like, people online who'll be like, oh, do I have to get a contract now to kiss a girl? Those people. So. And I think we've got a really great example in the BDSM community of the ways that actually really detailed consent conversations can. Like, no one's saying that BDSM people are out having vanilla, boring sex. Like, it can facilitate and often and does facilitate hotter sex.

[A]

Absolutely. And, you know, talking through all the details is part of getting yourself, you know, getting your head in the game. And that can make it a lot hotter. I mean, you know, anticipating something can make it a lot more intense and a lot more fun. Anticipation makes things hot.

[C]

I have another barrier to pleasure that I think we should jump into, which is shame. Shame is a very isolating emotion. It prevents us from being vulnerable and connecting with others, which is what keeps shame alive. Also, because you do open up and connect with someone and are met with compassion and empathy, that shame lightens or disappears, which is, I think, a huge part of why I'm so grateful for the people who've talked to us for the podcast. Because the responses I get are, thank you. I feel less alone.

[A]

And that's huge.

[C]

So can you tell me a little about. We'll start with how shame is related to pleasure. I don't wanna spend too long on shame. Cause I want us to leave this thing on a really positive note. But how shame shows up, I guess, in our sex lives, in our relationships.

[D]

And the meaning of life is, what

[C]

does shame sound like if people are listening and they're like, oh, no, I'm not good enough.

[A]

I'm not good enough. I'm not worth it. I'm not important.

[D]

I'm no good, unacceptable, unwantable, unlovable, faulty, bad, wrong.

[A]

We could go on.

[D]

I don't exist. I'm unworthy to exist. Yes. So, I mean, Brene Brown would say that we're in an epidemic of I'm not enough in our society. And doesn't always manifest sexually or affect sexual pleasure. But I reckon it affects all pleasure in life across the board. That's why it's kind of a big question. It's like, yeah, it absolutely does. And then you get specific shaming, specific sexual shaming, specific body shaming, specific gender shamings. So that stuff is, like, really concentrated on the sexual pleasure. But the other shame just ruins a lot of pleasure when you're walking around with that stuff in your head being triggered all day long.

[A]

And the thing is, you were referencing the Brene Brown quote. The antidote to shame is connection. But you have to let yourself connect. And if you are scared that if somebody gets to know you, if somebody into me, see, they won't want to know me, then you avoid the connection. And then you don't get the antidote. And the shame feeds on itself. Those. You know, those intimate conversations we were talking about, you know, this is what I. This is what I'm into, right? It's very vulnerable. It's very open. And if you can be met in that place by somebody who's important to you and it's okay, you know, then you can start to undo some of the shame. You know, if you. If you're thinking about it, if you're conscious and aware and being deliberate about

[C]

it, being courageous, because as you said, pleasure requires. This is what you were talking about before, Verity.

[B]

The.

[C]

What would you say a healthy entitlement. Pleasure requires you to have a healthy entitlement about what you are worth and what you. Your needs are and how you. You know, you can expect to have those needs met by yourself and the people around you.

[A]

There's that that notion of. Of good selfishness, like, selfishness gets a really bad rap in our culture. And, you know, for a reason. I mean, people being bad selfish is horrible. But there is this thing that I can only think of as good selfishness where I actually, you know, show up and say, this is what I want. This is what I like. This is what. This is what it feels like to me. And, I mean, I'm always telling my clients, you know, good sex usually involves two people turning up and being good selfish.

[D]

And there is a bit of gender politics around issues of entitlement. And really, a lot of the women I'm work, people who identify as women that I work with the under entitlement. You can have a lack of healthy entitlement for so many reasons, but for women, it is something I work with. You cannot have good sex unless you want sex for yourself. Unless you want the pleasure for yourself

[C]

and believe yourself deserving.

[D]

You cannot sort your sex life out for somebody else for the relationship, because you should. Yeah. So it's absolutely fundamental and really hard to have if you don't have healthy entitlement.

[A]

And, you know, and the more marginalized you are, the harder it is to find that place.

[C]

Which is why pleasure is a political act.

[A]

Amen.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Another barrier to pleasure that I think probably most people can relate to is domesticity. The mundane, the everyday life is not necessarily exciting. Sometimes it sucks the marrow from our bones. I'm just looking for. I want things that people can take away as like, here's how I'm going to enact pleasure or peace or joy or desire in my life as an antidote and a radical act against this capitalist hellscape.

[D]

So tiny. Tiny acts of sensual sort of cat.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Tiny acts of sensuosity. Trying to just be mindfully present when the sun's on your back, or gifting yourself those moments of being present to yourself and enjoying whatever small thing we were talking about, you know, not wanting to be too sort of bloody middle class about all of us and what it's like when you can't feed your children, when you're working in a shit factory and your back hurts and you. You know, there's not a lot you can do. So. But how. Yeah. Finding those moments for yourself of joy and pleasure and gifting them to yourself is a matter of survival, really, to keep going. Yeah.

[C]

And for those of us who do have the luxury to do that, fighting for those who don't have that luxury, I think is a big part of that.

[D]

But so many of us aren't even embodied. We're not even present to ourself in any, you know, we're just so crazy monkey brain and stressed and go, go, go. So you know those moments of stopping and we're always talking to our clients about balance and resisting, working and working and more and more and striving for higher and higher standards because it just takes all your time and energy and you can't have those moments.

[A]

And, and you know, the people who are not, you know, on Survival street, on Struggle street, the people but, but, but who are, you know, I guess, you know, middle class or whatever on Struggle street now. Well, but, but, but who've bought into, you know, I, I, I can have it all and I can do it all and I, I should be able to do it all and I should be able to, you know, have this big house and, or whatever it is and it's, you know, actually you can't and you have to make choices and you need to make sure that your choices are life affirming for you, you know. And you know, are you doing. And I work with a lot of, you know, business people and things like that so I end up using sort of, you know, are you doing accurate cost benefit analysis on your choices here? Because you know, it looks like you're going to be, you know, mortgage free by the time you're 45 and twice divorced. Is that really working in your, you know, in your favour? Is that really getting you what you want?

[C]

And if you don't take opportunities to rest and recuperate and seek pleasure where you can or to where you can do that cost benefit analysis, your body will floor you. Your body will make the decision.

[D]

Resting, breathing, embodiment and mindfulness. Those, those, yeah. Coming back to your childlike body again and, and really getting determined to do that. Yeah, breathing. And that's why somatic work is so, so, so needed at the moment. So all those little things really matter. And gratitudes in the morning would be another one.

[A]

And underpinning all that is is an attitude of what we call self compassion, of seeing yourself as deserving of love and care. And our culture doesn't teach us that, you know, our culture wants us to be a cog in a capitalist machine producing. And I've never forgiven Helen Clark for, I mean, I mean stop from a

[D]

political rant and was on the shoulder Nick.

[C]

No, but now we have to know

[D]

what you're not going to forgive Helen

[A]

Clark for describing mothers as unproductive.

[C]

Oh that,

[D]

that

[A]

not part of the productive workforce.

[D]

Ah, yeah, we'll put her in Marilyn Waring in the back room and let them fight it out.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. So some things that I found practically that embody me and give me little moments of pleasure. Massage. There's an app called Dipsy. There's other apps called Quinn. They are audio porn. And there are guided self touch meditations in there that are incredible. They slow you down and really get you embodied. I'm a head person, so getting into my body is really important. Elena likes to rub lotion on herself slowly, is that correct? With sensual music playing.

[A]

She got that from her mother.

[D]

Any others you want to chuck in there? Well, yeah, there's lots of apps in music and breathing. Breathing apps and tools and sensation.

[C]

Nature, baby.

[A]

Absolutely.

[D]

Nature bathing.

[C]

Nature can do it.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And you know, and using your body, I mean, you know, for a lot of people, dancing, you know. Yeah, you're dancing or running or walking or, you know, being in your body and movement is.

[C]

Okay, I have one more audience question that I'll ask and then we'll go to our live audience and see if there's any questions in the room.

[A]

See if they're alive, see if they

[C]

give them a little poke, see what happens. But the question from the audience was, if it's gone in the relationship, and by its, I believe they mean desire, can you get it back? And what do you need to get there?

[D]

Well, most of the time, a great big fat yes. Okay. So that.

[C]

Yes, you can get it back.

[D]

Yeah. This is really, really, really, really common. People terrified that they can't get it back. So people panic. And I say it becomes bigger than bloody Africa. And that's what I've got to work with now. Sometimes there's too much anger and resentment and contempt. You know, there are reasons. But if mainly people panic, they think it kind of dies and it really means something massive.

[C]

If we, like, the love's gone. Yeah.

[D]

Or I'm out in love with you. Or if you don't want to have sex, that means we're not in love. And it's just like, breathe, everybody. And then that's mainly what I do. A lot we do with couples is step them through. Or whoever's individual scabbles, step them through that a little bit.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I think. I think the problem in that sentence may be in the word back because there is kind of an implication that we can get back to where we were in the honeymoon phase. And I think that's. That's, you know, that's actually unrealistic. I think you can have Something new. And so, so often this stuff is about. It's about things have changed. So we no longer have that new relationship energy we don't have, you know. No, we don't. So how else do we, you know, how else do we create, you know, desire and excitement? And there's now, there's now lots of research about sex in late life, as they say, you know, 60s and 70s and onwards. And these people, you know, across the world, many, many studies are reporting the best sexes of sex of their lives. That phrase comes up over and over again.

[C]

And I've interviewed people who say the same thing.

[D]

If you roll with changes and keep changing and adapting and growing and changing,

[C]

and if you want sex to still

[D]

be part of your life, our bodies change. We go through IVFs. We do. All kinds of things happen. But if you grow and adapt and change, there's nothing more definite than change is constant for human beings, including in our sex lives. So it can happen, not just losing fresh relationship energy. So many things can stop our sexual desire in its tracks. Medications.

[C]

Stress.

[D]

Yeah, stress.

[A]

Absolutely.

[D]

And, you know, something we are really passionate about is does people are in such despair when that happens, particularly if they love the people or person they have sex with. They're in such pain and just to help them find all the various ways through. And it's about being really creative and. Okay, yeah. And not going back to how it was, letting that place go and creatively looking for a new, new place.

[A]

I think another thing that's, you know, Emily Nagoski really stresses is, you know, the people who have, you know, report having really enjoyable sex lives, they make it a priority. So they want it. They want it, and they want it badly. They want it enough that they're going to put work into making it work. And you know, that that's how you have a good sex life. But we don't, over a long time,

[D]

don't tell people enough how to do that, though. Where are the maps? You know, that's why there are maps out there. But people don't know that. That's why they get so terrified when the desire goes.

[A]

And we're back to the expectation, the damage done by expectations.

[D]

They need a hopeful narrative.

[C]

They need the good sex project.

[A]

They absolutely need the good sex project.

[C]

So we are gonna see if there's any questions in the room. Before you put your hand up, we have an omg.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

Subscription to the first person who asks a question. OMGS is a website dedicated to pleasure. Are you about to put your hand up?

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

It's yours.

[B]

I'm going to jump in here because these questions were actually a little bit hard to make out. So the first question came from a young woman who said, I'm looking around the room and meeting people tonight and there's a lot of femme presenting people. I'm thinking about people in hetero presenting relationships who often bear the burden of emotional and sexual functioning in a relationship. How do we navigate all of this without the work all being back on us? That's an excellent question. Over to you, Nick.

[A]

Well, I think don't put up with doing a disproportionate amount of the work. I think is really the answer to that.

[C]

While recognising the many structures that set you up to do that, which I know you always do. Recognise those. Yeah. But I know the first time you said this to me was very hard to hear.

[A]

Sorry.

[D]

There's a problem systemically on both ends of that dynamic and both ends have to change. And not propping up, continuing to do it is very challenging and very difficult, but very important. And the people and penis owning people on the other end. And Nick does a lot of work challenging men and it's good when it comes from another man. But I do a lot of it in my work together and I find it's very important to address that. The whole system's out of balance. Not just poor her doing all the work because that is part of how she was conditioned. And that's got to change. And that's got to change. It's both ends have to change.

[A]

But it's, you know, where there is an. In a situation of inequity with power, the people with power don't give it up.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

It has to be taken from them. I mean, it's not fair, it's not right. But it's kind of the way things mostly change.

[D]

So Nick's got a really clever thing he taught me to do, which was to show if there is a person with. Yeah. Like entitlement or power, why do I give up? Why would I agree to do more emotional labor, more whatever. Cause you're doing it for me. Is to appeal to self interest. So what is it that you're actually trying to do here? And is this. If you keep going like this, what do you think's gonna happen for this other person who's doing all the emotional work and whatever? And that can work really well, radically. And what are your ultimate limits? And will you back them up with that person? Like what are you prepared to do to no longer Be the person who keeps on doing it. Will you ultimately leave if this works? You know, sometimes you can't say that. You know, if you're disent sometimes you'll

[C]

say that 10 times.

[D]

No. And you don't say it 10 times. I say that to every woman I work with. If you're saying it 10 times, you're just whinging and complaining with an empty threat. Don't give your power away like that.

[B]

The next audience question's also a good one. So at the beginning of the evening, as we were warming up, I asked K, Nick and Verity how much sex is the right amount of sex for a couple. I was being facetious. There's no right amount. You didn't miss much there. And if you've listened to the podcast, you know there's no right amount. And that frequency means nothing when it comes to a satisfying sex life. So this was a follow up question from an audience member which basically boils down to how do you know how much sex or how much sexual connection is right for you?

[D]

Sometimes you lose what's right for you. Well, I've certainly at times done what I thought the relationship needed or what I thought lost myself, didn't. So I guess the question is, how do you know that comes down to core things about what you're wanting, how much you want a physical connection, if that physical connection is important or not. And then you have to peel away any other reasons you're doing it and then just come back to, you know, what am I wanting for my life? How much physical connection with another human being do I want? And you've got to work you out before you consider the other.

[C]

Is this one of those situations where you might recommend a break on sex while you puzzle? Cause I feel like trying to puzzle out how much is the right amount for me would be easier in a kind of.

[D]

You mean when there's no pressure or

[C]

when there's no pressure and you can really feel it out in your body without feeling like that expectation's coming in.

[A]

Or if you've got a. No, if you've got a partner whom you know wants to have sex with you, you're always going to feel the pressure. So those kind of you. I mean, a couple can agree that they want to. They're going to do that, but I would never suggest that it removes the pressure. The pressure is going to remain. It's still a good, maybe a good idea, but I'm just saying.

[D]

Yeah, it's like locating yourself can be really hard in relationship. I'VE been on that journey to locate me and the essence of me and who I want to be in the world and what I want. And you know, that that's the best place to locate what's right, I think. And you might need to go on a retreat. You might need time out. You might need to. There's a lot of Firming up your

[A]

sense of self and suggest.

[C]

The experts. Suggest a retreat.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. No, but it's also. But all that. All that stuff we were talking. All that stuff we were talking about before in terms of, you know, embodiment and mindfulness and, you know, you know, practicing being in positive, sensual relationship with yourself, which is stuff you can do without having to spend money on, going on retreat or whatever. You know, it's like the more you build that language in that relationship of, you know, this is what. This is what feels good to me. You know, this is what I like. This is. This works. And building your sensitivity to, you know, this, your internal signals, like, all of that. All of that work. And I mean, it's trial and error. It's trial and try some stuff.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and. And does that work for me? Did that make, you know, do I like the outcome of that? No, I don't. Okay, well, then I won't. I'll do it differently. What else could I do? I mean, you know, life is a series of experiments. We don't know what's right, you know, and we've got to work it out for us. You know, we got to work.

[D]

Couples do they say they go. You can negotiate it. If you're in a coupledom or with other people, you can just go with longer between. A lot of people did the sex every day for. What was it?

[A]

There's a book, 30 days.

[D]

30 days.

[C]

Who did that?

[A]

We did.

[D]

We did. We thought, this is interesting. We'll give this a go.

[C]

I mean, like, who started that trend? But thank you for that very personal attention.

[B]

All right, one more interruption from me. This was the final question from our audience on the night, and it was about stress and sex.

[C]

Basically. Our lives are really stressful.

[B]

For a lot of us, most of us, stress doesn't exactly get us in the mood. Any tips or advice for how to kind of break through and break out of that stress mode so that you can get into a more relaxed, safe, intimate, sexy vibe?

[A]

I mean, without going into a kind of whole, you know, lecture on, you know, stress management. I mean, I think the thing I referred to before, it's like, are my priorities serving who I Want to be and how I want to live, I think is a really, really important question for everybody. And all the time, are there things I can take off my plate that actually I'm doing for the wrong reasons or that don't give me enough pleasure or payoff? But I think also the other thing is sometimes we do have very stressful lives and we can't do anything about it. And that is the. The situation we're in. And then there needs to be a conversation, I think, with ourselves. And then, you know, if we're in a relationship with the people we're in relationship with, it's kind of like, how much of a priority is sexual pleasure? You know, we've got a big, long list of all these things that are demanding our time and our energy. Are we prepared to move that up the list and make it more of a priority or not? And if we're not, if this time of our life, because, you know, we've got a whole bunch of young children, we. Oh, we. You know, I don't know, we've been made redundant and, you know, whatever. It's like, if now's not the time, now's not the season. That's actually okay. That really is okay. It's not fun, may not be what we want, but if that's the hand you dealt, you know, trying to be. Be kind to yourself, be compassionate to yourself, but I'm not there right now, you know, when stress goes down, I know. I believe my sexual self will come back. And usually it does, you know, but right now, that's not where I'm at. And being kind about that.

[D]

We know that women's arousal is more indiscriminate than men's, but it's more distractible. So a lot of women find stress, and men and other identifiers, you know, find it really hard. So being really, really conscious and sometimes things that, as Emily says, finding the room next door to being sexual is a really good idea. But what I used to need kind of a jolt out of the stress. So something quite loud music, really loud, and dance around the room or prepare the room beautifully, and then do massage or something before you go into the sexual space or, you know, going. If you've got any money or someone's got a different Getting out of the domestic realm or tidying up a room out of the domestic and the stressy kind of stuff. So kind of real demarcation. So to step out into this other place that really. I know, you know, that you might need things that really transport you to switch that brain off. It's so hard with the stress to switch it off. So finding out what the thing is that you know laughing. So stand up comedy for some people gets them out of the stress zone and then they can transition from that other people dancing.

[C]

I'm aware of how long people have been sitting for, but I think, I think we should wrap and we will be around to ask any other questions. And there's a lot of drinks to get through and pizza to get through. So yeah, please eat and drink your merry hearts out. Thank you to Taryn who introduced us and who did most of the work to put this amazing event together. Can we give round of applause? Thank you to the whole team who made this podcast and who supported me through it so I didn't get burnout this time around. To you two for coming all this way and sharing your amazing breadth of knowledge with us. Thank you guys for coming out this evening. Come say hi and enjoy the rest of your evening.

[B]

Thank you so much for listening to this live recording from our event in Tamaki Makoto, Auckland that put us in front of some of our wonderful listeners, as well as serving as a wrap party to close the second season of the Good Sex Project. We hope to be back in your ears before too long, but in the meantime, follow the Good Sex Project on Instagram or follow Me Elody Rules on Instagram and if you want to contact us directly, you can email goodsexprojectmail.com if you haven't yet, give us a rate and review on whatever podcast platform you listen on and share this series with your pals. We will hopefully be back together soon. In the meantime, much love.

[A]

Acast Powers, the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[F]

I just want to say that I'm back with a new podcast, Feedback with Ira Madison iii. Every Thursday, I'll dissect whatever's taking over my group chat, like who West Wilson from Summer House is banging this week, whether film criticism and black art can actually coexist, why every man on a dating app is either illiterate or reading Middlemarch with no in between. And whatever the hell is going on with heated rivalry fans on the Internet. You know exactly who you are. I'll be joined by friends and other culture makers to dissect pop culture, politics and the media and all the ways the Internet has rewired our brains permanently. New episodes of Feedback drop every Thursday starting June 18th. Subscribe now to Feedback with Ira Madison III. Wherever you get your podcasts I should get that.

[A]

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