Things Fell Apart

Summary

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The Good Sex Project

Episode 2: "Things Fell Apart" (June 16, 2026)

Host: Melody Thomas | Production: Popsock Media

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Episode Overview

This deeply vulnerable episode of The Good Sex Project follows Anna and John, a New Zealand couple of 15 years, as they recount the gradual breakdown ("rupture") of their relationship due to unresolved conflicts, substance use, and ultimately, multiple infidelities. The episode explores both the pain of betrayal and the painstaking process of repair, using attachment theory and practical therapy tools as touchstones. With raw honesty, Melody Thomas and her guests examine why even so-called “good” relationships can crack, what it takes to rebuild after breaking, and why genuine repair is the secret weapon for lasting intimacy—not the absence of conflict.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Nature of Rupture and Repair (01:52–04:53)

• Defining "Rupture": Melody opens with everyday scenarios of betrayal or disappointment, explaining that “rupture” happens in every relationship—big or small.
• Core Insight: “The size of the rupture has very little effect on whether the relationship will actually recover. What makes and breaks relationships is our ability to repair.” (03:59 - Melody Thomas)

John & Anna's Backstory and Attachment Styles (05:15–13:51)

• Early Days: John and Anna met “pre-Tinder” online, feeling an instant connection (06:24).
• Family Backdrop: Both bring experiences of instability—Anna with alcoholic, violent stepfathers and John with volatility/avoidance at home.
• Attachment Theory: Melody breaks down anxious/pursuer (Anna) and avoidant/withdrawer (John) dynamics. (12:31–13:51)
  • Anna: Approaches conflict directly.
  • John: Withdraws and numbs emotion, sometimes with substances.

Escalating Stress and Growing Distance (14:37–16:38)

• Patterns Worsen: John's alcohol use and Anna's sensitivities clash, tying their present struggles to past trauma.
• Cycle of Shame and Avoidance: “I feel a lot of shame, which would fester into annoyance... typically I would go into avoiding that situation.” (15:37–15:52 – John)
• Attachment Panic: Even trivial fights trigger deep-seated fears of doom.

The Glass Shatters: Infidelity Discovery (D-Day) (18:15–21:57)

• Pandemic Pressures: Grief, health scares, business stress push Anna and John into emotional survival mode.
• The Discovery: Anna, unable to shake a feeling that "something is wrong," finds explicit messages from another woman in John’s linked device.
  • Memorable Quote: "I just became this psychotic sleuth... I couldn't sleep. Pulled all the computers out... and then I just found more and more and more.” (21:03 - Anna)

Reactions, History, and Unhealed Wounds (21:57–23:56)

• Not the First Time: Earlier emotional infidelity was never properly addressed.
• Unhealed Past: "No, there was no work done." (22:28 - Anna)
• Normalizing Infidelity: Melody shares NZ stats and an excerpt from Dan Savage urging “compassionate realism” about monogamy.
  • “If you’re with somebody for 50 years and they cheated once or twice, they were good at monogamy, not bad at it.” (23:56 – Dan Savage)

Unpacking Motivation and Emotional Disconnect (24:30–29:30)

• John's Motive: Not seeking new love, but validation and escape from judgment, guilt, and communication failures.
  • “What I saw was [Anna] pleading with me for support… I just felt stuck. I couldn’t really deal with it.” (25:47 - John)
• Emotional Needs Gap: Anna needed to feel “heard, held, and seen”—John internalized her needs as criticism.

D-Day Fallout and Initial Steps Toward Repair (29:30–34:36)

• Immediate Aftermath: Anna turns to Esther Perel’s advice—writing every question down.
• Raw Emotions: Rage, heartbreak, and an aftermath filled with “muted yells” and physical separation.
  • “The rage, the absolute rage and hurt took over, and I just started kicking him... maybe yelling as quietly so we didn’t wake up the child." (31:59 - Anna)
• Therapeutic Disclosure: Full sexual histories, letters of impact and apology, but even here, the full truth emerges only after a “second D-Day” a year later.

Building New Habits: Imago Dialogue and Communication Tools (34:36–36:01)

• Imago Therapy: Learning to actively mirror, validate, and empathize with what is being said, not just react defensively.
• Criticism Sensitivity: John identifies deep-seated perception of criticism linked to his childhood.
• Raw Ongoing Work: Healing is not linear, and Anna still sometimes leverages “the trump card” (the betrayal) in arguments:
  • “You betrayed me badly. You don’t get to tell me how you’re hurting.” (35:57 – Melody summarizing Anna's feeling)

The Role of Shame, Guilt, and Consistency (36:35–37:16)

• Shame vs. Guilt:
  • “Shame is not helpful... guilt, not too much but not too little, helps me not become complacent.” (36:38 - John)

Rebuilding Sexual Intimacy (37:16–42:25)

• Trauma & Sex: Despite the emotional chaos, they have sex soon after D-Day—trauma-bonding and reconnection.
  • “It was very emotional. I was bawling my eyes out and all of a sudden we're making out. Like some terrible romance novel.” (38:41 - Anna)
• Growth Through Rupture: They use the crisis to discuss sexual wants and needs (for the first time), from dirty talk to fantasies to toys, with humor and honesty.
  • “Say it again.” “Cock.” (40:53, 40:54 – Anna and John, playfully practicing sexual language)
  • "I want to be a dirty slut sometimes in my relationship, you know? And that's okay." (41:39 – Anna)
• Outcome: Their sexual connection is the best it’s ever been—ironically, as a result of confronting their pain and desires directly.

Staying Together: Vigilance and Hope (42:31–45:26)

• Living with Uncertainty: The process is ongoing; Anna is unsure if asking John to show up "150%" is sustainable.
  • "At what point asking for 150% is going to become too much and he's out." (44:53 - Melody)
• Showing Up: For now, John is committed to the hard work every day.
  • "That's the price to be here." (45:03 – John)
  • "If you consistently show up... occasionally those wounds will be less apparent and I will start trusting that you're just actually going to have my best interest at heart." (45:08 – Anna)

The Metaphor of Kintsugi: Repair as Honoring Scars (45:35–End)

• Melody compares their work to kintsugi, the Japanese art of mending broken pottery with gold:
  • "The cracks are highlighted rather than hidden. They become part of what makes it more beautiful as well as stronger." (45:35 - Melody Thomas)
• The episode ends with Anna and John’s ongoing hope, realism, and gratitude—even in uncertainty.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “A good relationship is one where you don’t fight.” (09:49 - John, describing a childhood belief)
• “What if the way we show up in love has a history... that started long before any of our adult relationships began?” (11:53 - Melody Thomas)
• “I came out knowing that I'm gonna speak my mind and I'm not gonna put up with shit and I'm not gonna let anyone hurt me and my family.” (11:18 - Anna)
• "You have to pick up each shard… join them back together, knowing now that what goes unseen can still do damage." (45:35–46:37 - Melody Thomas)
• "The vase will never be the same, but it's theirs. It holds their story. Every fracture, every repair, every moment they chose to turn back towards each other." (46:55 - Melody Thomas)

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Key Therapy Tools, Frameworks, and Resources Mentioned

• Attachment Theory (John Bowlby) – Shapes conflict patterns
• Imago Therapy & Dialogue – Mirroring, validation, and empathy
• Sue Johnson's "Hold Me Tight" – On emotional needs and repair
• Esther Perel – Uses infidelity as wake-up call for deeper relationship work
• Kintsugi – Japanese metaphor for honoring visible repair

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Segment Timestamps

• 01:18 – Content warning & episode setup
• 01:52–04:53 – What is rupture? Establishing the core theme
• 05:15–13:51 – Anna & John’s relationship history, attachment, and childhood
• 14:37–16:38 – Substance use escalation and pursuer/withdrawer dynamics
• 18:15–21:57 – Pandemic, piling stress, and discovery of infidelity
• 22:09–23:56 – Previous betrayal, stats on infidelity, Dan Savage clip
• 24:30–29:30 – Motives for betrayal, emotional miscommunication
• 29:30–34:36 – D-Day response, therapeutic disclosure, a second D-Day
• 34:36–36:01 – Introduction of Imago dialogue, ongoing triggers
• 36:35–37:16 – Shame, guilt, and the challenge of moving forward
• 37:16–42:25 – Sexual reconnection, new communication, and humor
• 42:31–46:37 – Vigilance, showing up, and the kintsugi metaphor
• 46:37–End – Preview for next episode

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Tone, Style, and Atmosphere

• Open, raw, compassionate: The episode is marked by extremely candid interviews, gentle narration, and empathetic explanations.
• Practical, relatable, honest: Practical advice blends with real emotion. The struggles are neither minimized nor sensationalized.
• Hopeful but realistic: The story doesn’t guarantee a happy ending but insists on the dignity and strength in choosing repair.

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For First-Time Listeners

This episode is a masterclass in relationship honesty. Expect frank language, deep vulnerability, and therapy-informed insights relevant to anyone who’s ever loved and struggled. Anna and John’s journey is not one of fairy-tale reconciliation, but of the messy, noble effort to mend what’s been broken—and to do so with eyes open.

Transcript

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[Melody Thomas (Good Sex Project Intro)]

hello, friends. A quick content warning. This podcast is about sex, which you probably know already, but you know just in case you hit play accidentally. This episode in particular focuses on a couple's journey with infidelity. So if that hits close to the bone, please do take care of yourself. There are also brief mentions of domestic violence and substance abuse. Some names and locations have been changed. This podcast was made with the support of New Zealand. On air,

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

you're at a dinner party with your friends. It's nice, everyone's getting along, the food's great. And then your partner decides to tell a story. That story, the one you've asked them not to tell because it makes you look terrible. Everyone cracks up, and you try to laugh along with them, but you're gutted. How could they? Again, the evening goes on, but your heart isn't in it anymore. You just want to go home. Or how about this? You get home from work really excited. It's been a huge day. You slayed it. You can't wait to tell your partner. They're in the kitchen.

[Anna]

Hey.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Hey. Oh, my gosh.

[Anna]

Wanna hear about my day?

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

But they're distracted. Are they even listening? Oh, my God. Did they just pick up their phone? Your heart sinks, but they don't notice that either. You leave the room deflated. Okay, one more. Your partner's been acting strange, distant. While they're in the other room, their phone pings. And you know you shouldn't. But you look. It's a random message from someone called Dave, apparently. So why is Dave saying that he misses you and he can't wait to see you again? You drop the phone as your world implodes. Ideally, you wouldn't relate to any of these scenarios, but you probably will. Even if you've never had any of these specific things happen, you'll recognise the feelings. Hurt, disappointment, betrayal at the hands of somebody who's meant to love you. In the world of relationship therapy, this is called a rupture. And no matter who you are or what your relationship is like, a rupture is inevitable.

[John]

I don't know what to do.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

It hurt a lot. Something didn't feel right.

[John]

I don't want to talk to you about this. Let's fight this out.

[Anna]

I didn't think that anyone could do this to another person.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

But here's what I find most interesting about all of this. The size of the rupture has very little effect on whether the relationship will actually recover. Couples can survive earth shattering betrayals and they can also fall apart over something so trivial that no one even remembers what it was about. What makes and breaks relationships is our ability to repair. When ruptures aren't repaired, even the tiny ones that seem like nothing, they can add up to something that's really hard to come back from. Deeply held pain, distrust, disconnection and resentment.

[John]

What is it now? What have I done wrong? What am I not doing? How am I disappointing?

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

In this episode, we're going to spend time with a couple who've been through a significant period of rupture and who are now doing the painful and painstaking work of repair.

[Anna]

You're asking this person that's done this terrible thing, like now, you need to try and fix what you've done and try and make me feel better.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

I'm Melody Thomas. Welcome to the Good Sex Project. This is episode two. Things fell apart.

[John]

We first met in the early days of online dating.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

This is John.

[John]

I'm 43 years old, male, living in Wellington area, have a young son and a beautiful wife.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

John's beautiful wife is also here.

[Anna]

I'm Anna and I also have another son from a previous relationship. Living away from home as a big kid, a young adult.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

John and Anna have been together for around 15 years. When they say they first met in the early days of online dating, they

[Anna]

mean pre tinder on like NZ dating or something like that.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Back when the general view of dating online was, oh, that's a bit weird,

[Anna]

isn't it, you know.

[John]

Yeah, I wasn't having a lot of luck meeting people irl. But one person did respond to me and seemed reasonably normal as far as it goes. And interesting. And yeah, we decided to have a date.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

The date went down at a bar in Wellington. Anna still remembers walking in and seeing John for the first time.

[Anna]

He was having a drink. He's wearing some kind of wacky 70s jacket or something and he crazy woolly hair and yeah, he just looked cute. He gave me a nice smile and we sat down and we chatted.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Here's how John remembers it.

[John]

She came in absolutely beaming, and I was floored. I was like, this girl is incredible. I knew from that instant. Yeah, she was just so beautiful.

[Anna]

And then I think the date went on all night.

[John]

We went out to a gig and went dancing. Yeah, just chatted and hung out. It was really nice.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

So the connection felt fairly instantaneous.

[Anna]

Yeah, it felt reciprocated. You know, it felt like we were equally into it.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

John and Anna kept dating. Eventually they made it official and moved in together. After eight years, they were well and truly on the relationship escalator. You know the one.

[John]

Get married, buy a house, have a kid.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Did you feel like you were just on a trajectory, ticking the things off, or were you like, no, I actually really do want to get married and I do want to have a baby.

[Anna]

Or was it. I often think about these questions, especially as a CIS woman in my first child. I'm like, I kind of got pregnant. And I was like, oh, well, I guess we'll just do that then, won't we? There's not really much alternative to that that's on offer. I guess my previous relationship kind of didn't go to plan. And there's almost like a thing where I'm like, well, we're gonna make it work this time around. Do it right this time. We'll do it right this time.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Anna and John had their baby in 2017. Around this time, they also moved cities, renovated a house. And there were some big changes with Anna's business.

[John]

It was challenging. There were lots big life changes. There was a lot more period of time.

[Anna]

Yeah, it was quite intense, actually. Like some good things, but, you know, when you have that list of intense things that happen in your life, they were like all the top things all at once. Yeah, kind of all at once, really.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

John especially struggled with the adjustment.

[John]

I don't know if I was actually prepared for what I would need to do and what that level of responsibility looked like. I certainly found that very challenging.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

The Responsibilities of adulthood are challenging for everyone and having a baby is one of the biggest challenges of all. It's bound to put stress on any relationship, especially if no one's shown you how to do a healthy relationship.

[John]

I don't want to put blame on anyone or anything, but I think that what I saw in terms of conflict from my parents was either avoidance or a lot of volatility, a lot of anger or defensiveness. My father had quite a traumatic upbringing, a lot of domestic violence, abandonment. My mum is more kind of meek and quieter and quite a kind person. But there was a lot of conflict that was very one directional and I think really shaped how I would approach conflict, which is to avoid it at all costs.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Because John's parents fought so much and so badly, he began to internalise a

[John]

certain belief if there is love present, there wouldn't be conflict.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

In other words, a good relationship is one where you don't fight and a lot of us grow up thinking some version of this, but it's not true at all. In fact, the opposite can be true. Avoiding conflict can actually lead to lower relationship satisfaction and even negative health impacts. Anna didn't grow up in a super stable home environment either.

[Anna]

My parents split up when I was like 6 months old, so I never really knew the two parent house with my own father.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Anna's father did eventually play a part in her life, but not reliably, kind of holidays here and there. Mostly she lived with her mum.

[Anna]

Her upbringing was quite awful as well and so she kind of came to parenting doing her best with what little skills she had, so giving her that grace there, you know. And we had a lot of men in our house, like her chosen partners that had big issues. So she's had three husbands, all of them alcoholics, so that was quite intense in our house.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Anna tells me about one particular stepdad who was around during her tween and teenage years.

[Anna]

Either he was drunk and happy or drunk and extremely violent. And so he used to beat my mum and it was quite awful when

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

things got really bad when her stepdad was violent towards her mum or her brother, Anna would call the police.

[Anna]

I guess I came out knowing that I'm gonna speak my mind and I'm not gonna put up with shit and I'm not gonna let anyone hurt me and my family and I see how that's affected me in my relationships and like I will approach things head on, like what's going on, which has its own issues as well, I see.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

It sounds like you've got immediately opposite Attitudes to conflict and confrontation.

[Anna]

Yeah, completely, yeah.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

When we think about who we are in our relationships, how we communicate what we need, what sets us off and what makes us anxious, it can feel like those patterns just appeared out of nowhere, like it's just part of who we are. But what if it's not? What if the way that we show up in love has a history, One that started long before any of our adult relationships began? In this episode, we're tracing that thread and exploring why we're drawn to dynamics that feel comfortable and familiar. And even when, if we're honest, they're not making us happy. Attachment theory was first developed by a British psychiatrist named John Bowlby in the late 1950s, and it's since become one of the go to frameworks that therapists use to understand relationships. At its core, it suggests that the way we connect with others isn't random. It's shaped by our earliest experiences of closeness, care and safety. Over time, those experiences form an internal blueprint, something psychologists call an attachment style, which influences influences how we respond in relationships, especially when things feel uncertain or emotional. Maybe you've come across this before, taken a quiz or read an article and landed somewhere on the mix of anxious, avoidant or disorganised. Or maybe you even got secure. The straight A student of attachment styles. It's not me, but congrats if it's you. When anxious and avoidant styles collide in a relationship, a familiar pattern can emerge during conflict, where one person becomes the pursuer, wanting to fix things quickly, get reassurance and feel close again. And in this story, that's Anna, I'm

[Anna]

like, what's going on? Hey, let's sort this out, let's chat about it. Let's get it out, you know, while

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

the other person pulls back, retreating inside themselves to avoid the conflict. This is the withdrawer or John.

[John]

Avoiding and moving away from emotions is a big challenge for me.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

It's one of the most common relationship patterns in out there and it is so hard to break because each person's instinct does the exact thing that the other person's most afraid of. And the twist is that both the pursuer and the withdrawer are genuinely trying to protect the relationship. The pursuer is pushing to close the gap before it feels permanent. The withdrawer is backing off before things explode. The first time I heard this, a huge penny dropped because this was, for a really long time, the dynamic of my own relationship. When it came to conflict, I would pursue like Ann. My husband would withdraw. It's exhausting and it can make moving forward feel impossible. Something that made things even more difficult for Anna and John was the way that John chose to withdraw.

[John]

I'll go to great lengths, I mean, through maybe drugs or alcohol. That was the way that I self soothed or tried to cope with depression or how I was feeling or choosing not to feel, as the case may be.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Escaping through drugs and alcohol wasn't a new habit for John, but it was one that he had begun to turn to more and more as the challenge of life built up.

[John]

I would get excessively drunk quite often, which would lead to Anna getting very frustrated and annoyed or angry.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Remember, Anna had grown up with volatile and alcoholic father figures. So John's drinking was really triggering.

[Anna]

I could see the switch in his personality. And as soon as that happened, I'd just be, like, totally on edge and just waiting for the night to turn into a piece of shit. Like, going through the thing in my head of like, oh, this is gonna happen. Then I'm gonna have to get him home, and then we're gonna have an argument, and then I'm gonna lock him out of the room and he won't understand why.

[John]

At which point I think I would feel a lot of shame, which would fester into annoyance as well, because she was trying to stop me from doing something that I want to do. So typically I would go into avoiding that situation or I would go into shame, feeling sad or low, and then get back into that situation again.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Anna and John were stuck in a reactive pursuer, withdrawer loop. They weren't even fighting each other anymore. They were fighting this cycle. And once couples get caught in that pattern, the stakes of every disagreement start to feel much higher than they actually are. Even a small disagreement can trigger a kind of attachment panic where the brain jumps straight to catastrophic thoughts like, this relationship's doomed.

[Anna]

He's so lovely all the rest of the time, and things are generally pretty good. But then this happens. You know, I'm like, is it bad enough? Is it bad enough to break this up?

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Let's imagine John and Anna's relationship as a vase that they'd built together, moulding the clay into a shape that worked for them. Over the years, hairline cracks have begun to appear in the surface of the vase. Tiny ruptures nearly invisible to the naked eye. Without the skills to repair, these have been left unmended. Those cracks have grown longer and deeper. Every time they fight, roll their eyes, turn to drink, let each other down. Another crack appears, and the vase somehow holds together. Or at least it has so far, but one of them is about to drop it.

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[Anna]

I guess. Should I start?

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

It was 2020 or the year of COVID Things had been rough in Anna and John's house for a little while now, but the pandemic made it that much harder. Anna was a small business owner dealing with some intense staffing issues. And just by coincidence, a wave of really tough personal stuff all hit at the same time.

[Anna]

I had a parent pass away during that time, my father, so that was quite tricky. There was a lot of unresolved issues there. My mother had a near fatal incident. My eldest son started having seizures and was diagnosed with a benign brain tumour. And then also having a small child, managing him and his like firecracker personality and then us, you know, and then dealing with that. And so I'm not okay during all of this.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Anna knew she needed extra support and that they needed extra support. She'd been to therapists and counsellors before and it had helped, but there just didn't seem to be any time. So they kept on keeping on.

[Anna]

We just need to get through this survival mode, just survival mode. Like we were just passing ships in the night, bickery. I wanted not to be distant, but then I was so annoyed by him. Like I felt so unsupported and everything. Like I just felt alone. Completely and utterly alone.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

With all of the stress and disconnection. Anna and John weren't having much in the way of sex at this time, if any. It wasn't for lack of effort though, at least from Anna, who was trying to initiate sexual connection but kept getting turned down by John. Both positions are understandable. Anna wanted to reconnect and sex is one way to do it. But John couldn't do sex when the vibes were so bad.

[Anna]

And then it just got to the point where I was like, something is wrong. Just something feels absolutely just wrong. I couldn't put my finger on it. And sorry. And one day he Was away for a night on a work trip and I was like, I'm just gonna have a look. I don't know. I don't know why, but I was like, I'm just gonna go and have a look at the iPad and just have a bit of a nose around. And then I went through the messages which were connected to the imessage. And then I just saw one message there and that just triggered the unraveling of everything.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

The message Anna found was from another woman, someone in the United States where John had recently been to visit a friend. And it was immediately obvious that John and this woman had hooked up.

[Anna]

Yeah. And then I like, became someone I don't even recognise, where I just became this psychotic sleuth where I just started going through everything. I couldn't sleep. Pulled all the computers out. They don't even believe what's going on, what has been happening. And then I just found more and more and more.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

So just to clarify, when you were sleuthing, this was like multiple different hookups or it was one person, just multiple hookups?

[Acast Host]

Yeah,

[Anna]

I just went through so many different emotions. I was angry. I was like in denial. And I just felt completely blindsided. Did not expect this. I knew something was wrong, but this is not what I thought was wrong. I didn't think that anyone could do this to another person.

[John]

You didn't think that I would do that to you?

[Anna]

I didn't think you would. Well, you know, and the thing is, I mean, we can go into this more, but I guess you should have. Like, the red flags are there because he did do this once and I thought it would never, ever happen again.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

There was an infidelity earlier in the relationship.

[Anna]

Like very early. Yeah, apparently nothing physical. He'd just been talking to people.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

But that early betrayal hadn't been repaired properly.

[Anna]

I suppose it was just like, don't ever do that again. It was like, I won't do that again. Okay, great. And that's it?

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

None of the underlying stuff?

[Anna]

No, it wasn't about it? No, no, there was no work done. Yeah.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

It's hard to get a really solid idea of how common cheating is for a bunch of reasons. I mean, first of all, it depends on your definition of cheating. Is sending flirty texts cheating a drunken pash that never goes any further? What if your partner falls in love with someone else but never acts on it? What constitutes cheating is different for every relationship. So there's not really any clear objective definition that would work universally. Also, most of the data on cheating is based on self reporting. So it relies on the people filling out the survey to be totally honest and transparent, which a lot of people just wouldn't be out of denial or shame or fear of being found out. The 2018 Kiwi Sex Survey by Adult Toy Megastore reported that a quarter of New Zealanders have cheated on their partner and one in seven have had a long term affair. I've seen other surveys which put cheating partners at closer to 15% and still more that go all the way up to 75%. We just don't know. But it does feel fair to say that cheating isn't uncommon. Some people see infidelity as a natural side effect of a society that endorses monogamy as the standard on a species not naturally built for it. That's what the American podcaster Dan Savage told me about it in the first season of the Good Sex Project.

[Dan Savage]

If you're with somebody for 50 years and they cheated on you once or twice, they were good at monogamy, not bad at monogamy. And I say that to people not because I want everyone to be in a non monogamous relationship, but because I want a monogamous relationship to be able to survive the infidelity that touches many, if not most monogamous relationships.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

When it comes to Anna and John, we're not talking about one slip up. He cheated multiple times with multiple people. That's a whole lot of betrayal. But on the plus side, I guess if you can call it that, he hadn't fallen in love with someone else.

[John]

It wasn't like a long term romantic affair partner, if you like. I wasn't looking for another relationship. I think there was an element of trying to find something that I wanted or needed that we didn't have.

[Anna]

I guess you weren't really drinking at that point either. And so I guess this kind of just replaced that. You know, one addiction or outlet has just replaced the other one. Yeah.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

So tell me, John, what were you seeking out that you felt you couldn't find at home?

[John]

We were losing and had lost our connection to each other, our intimacy. And there was a lot of need for support from me. I think I took that very critically. I took that as I'm failing this. I'm a disappointment, actually remember thinking quite often that like, you hated me.

[Anna]

You know, he's not wrong. There were times when I was like, this person doesn't want to be here.

[John]

I think she was really pleading with me for support and help. And it was intensifying and I couldn't really Deal with it. I was like, I don't know what to do here. I feel stuck. I feel overwhelmed. I wasn't looking at it rationally. I don't even think I was really hearing you. I was hearing, I'm not happy. I'm not happy here with you.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

I wish I could say that I don't hear some version of this all the time, but I hear it all the time. And it's not always the case, but most of the time it seems to be gendered in hetero couples, at least where she's saying, I need this from you, and he's hearing, you're not good enough.

[Anna]

John would often say, you expect too much of me.

[John]

You have you, or the expectations are very high.

[Anna]

I'll never meet what you think you know. And I remember asking him specifically one night when we were having this discussion. I was like, what is it you think that I expect from you? And he kind of was like, oh, that I put our child to bed at night and that I do some cooking and something else random as well. And I was like, that doesn't sound like a lot.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

It's also not actually all that Anna needed. The main thing that was missing was emotional support. She wanted to feel heard, held, and seen, like she mattered to John, that he had her back.

[John]

And I remember specifically you saying to me, well, what are your expectations? And you say, oh, I don't really have any.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

If you're someone who thinks like this, or if you're with someone who thinks like this, that you just don't have any emotional needs or expectations, you might want to read Sue Johnson's incredible book, Hold Me Tight. Sue Johnson pioneered the study of relationships, showing how the bonds of love work and how they can be repaired through psychotherapy. She also developed Emotionally Focused Therapy, which is a structured approach to couples therapy that can have huge and profound impacts. And the idea of having no emotional needs gets absolutely dismantled in the first chapter of Hold Me Tight. With a ton of research showing that close emotional bonds aren't just optional for humans. They're essential to our mental health, our physical health, everything securely attached. Adults are more curious, more open, more empowered, more confidently independent. They're also less likely to have dangerously elevated blood pressure, an imbalanced immune and hormonal system, and they even heal faster. Anyway, back to Anna.

[Anna]

During this, like, something's not right phase. I was, like, asking questions and being like, okay, how can I phrase this so that he doesn't freak out? And now I'm walking on eggshells when I Need to talk to you.

[John]

There was almost no way you could say something. It was almost like to say, hey, I need to talk to you about something. And I'm instantly, instantly triggered, tensed up, like, what is it? What is it now? What have I done wrong? What am I not doing? How am I disappointing?

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

When couples are stuck in this negative cycle, eventually they both start to withdraw. It's a coping strategy, a way of closing yourself off to the relationship before it becomes closed off to you. Vulnerability is suppressed. Issues aren't even brought up anymore. Pain or distress becomes replaced with a kind of numb resolution. Sometimes at this point, validation that can't be found within the relationship is sought elsewhere.

[Anna]

In the infidelity world, they call them D days.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

D day means discovery day, or the moment that a betrayed partner learns about their partner's affair. Did you contact John that evening or did he just get home to.

[Anna]

Well, I sent him multiple messages and just deleted them. There were multiple messages in messenger. Just.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

I can't believe it.

[Andy Beckerman]

What the fuck?

[Anna]

Just messages. And I just deleted everything. And then my final one was just

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

a screenshot of it, it being the message from the American woman.

[Anna]

We need to talk about this when you get home.

[John]

Yeah. And at that point, I knew that things had blown up and time to deal with it. Yeah, yeah.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

There's no running away from that one.

[Acast Host]

No.

[John]

It's some real life shit. Yep.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Here's the good news about infidelity. It is survivable. It's never easy, and it might not even be what you want, but a whole lot of couples do manage to stay together and sometimes even build something stronger after a betrayal like this is discovered. At the time of Anna's discovery, she'd been listening to a lot of Estia Perel podcasts. If you don't know her. Perel is one of the world's leading authorities on relationships, and she's also one of the many relationship therapists who believes that infidelity can be a valuable wake up call. Something that jolts a couple out of complacency and forces them to confront underlying issues that had lain dormant up till that point. Which does sound like it was kind of the case for Anna and John.

[Anna]

If this hadn't happened, if I hadn't found out what I did, we actually probably would have separated anyway.

[John]

Yeah, it felt like it was leading to that.

[Anna]

It was leading to that.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

After D Day, Anna went back to an old Esther Perel audiobook and re listened to.

[Anna]

Okay, I need to approach this with curiosity. What's going on? What's led him to this point. Listening to the book really helped me ease into being able to access compassion, because if I couldn't find that, then I would just hate him and want to make our lives hell and stop everything.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

In her book, Perel had some advice for the betrayed partner, which was to write down every single question that comes into your mind. So Anna did that.

[Anna]

You're gonna be so calm. You're gonna be calm. You're just gonna talk about this so calmly. It's just gonna be calm.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Easier said than done.

[John]

You were very angry.

[Anna]

I was very. I saw him and I was like the rage, the absolute rage and hurt took over, and I just started kicking him lots and maybe yelling as quietly so we didn't wake up the child. But the muted yell that you do when you can't truly let it out.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Eventually, when the first wave of anger subsided, Anna sat down with her list.

[Anna]

I asked him lots of really uncomfortable questions.

[John]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And cried and got really angry and. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

I don't know if you can hear that sound, but it's John rubbing Anna's leg to comfort her, which is something he was doing for basically the whole interview.

[Anna]

I said, you will sleep in the spare room, and I don't know what's going to happen. Luckily, I'd actually booked a holiday with a friend, and I was leaving in a couple of days to go away for a week.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

While she was away, Anna did a lot of thinking. She also had some fun snorkelling and hanging out with her friend. So by the time she came back, she felt ready for the next stage of the process.

[John]

Yeah. So we did a formal therapeutic disclosure with the therapist guiding us. So basically, I had to write out my full sexual history, the history of my acting out and infidelities. And that's presented in quite a factual, rational timeline, start to finish. And then we also prepared letters for each other. So Anna prepared a letter for me, which was how the revelation of the infidelity had impacted her. And the letter that I wrote was an acknowledgement of what I'd done.

[Anna]

I mean, it was good to do it, but there was actually still some revelations that came out afterwards.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Yeah, you heard that right. John left some stuff out of that letter. He didn't tell the whole truth. And Anna was in for another D day about a year down the track.

[Anna]

Yeah, we actually got to a really. We're actually in quite a good place. And then I found out some more information, and I came to him and I said, you need to tell Me this now. Otherwise we're going to separate now. You need to give me everything now. So there was a kind of a second Discovery Day, which was really, really hard and it put the trust back at near zero.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Despite all of this, Anna and John kept trying. They kept going to therapists, learning new tools for better communication. And one of those was called Imago dialogue, which is from Imago therapy. It's a method of communicating which involves one partner sharing their feelings while the other listens without judgment. The listener then mirrors back exactly what they've just heard, using validation and empathy to move from conflict to understanding. It's amazing how something so simple can completely change the way you listen to and understand each other.

[John]

Yeah, I think growing up there was a lot of kind of criticism at home that I bore a lot of brunt of. And what I've realised is that I perceive criticism where it's not present.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

It's been two years since that second D day, which isn't very long. You can still hear that in the way that Anna and John speak. The pain is still raw and things still blow up. From time to time a comment will be made and one of them overreacts and they spiral into an argument. It can also be quite hard for Anna not to fall immediately back on the things she knows will win her the argument.

[Anna]

If I'm feeling like pushed, if he's being a jerk, basically I'm like, you're being a jerk and you're not being accountable. Here's my trump card. Here's my ace. I'll tell you what hurts me now.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

You betrayed me badly. You don't get to tell me how you're hurting.

[Anna]

It's not a club that I want to be in. I don't want to have this ace card where I'm like, ha, ha, well, remember that time you went and fucked heaps of other people? You know, I don't want to. I'd rather not have that. So when I have used it, I feel like it's been valid, but I don't want to use it. I don't like it.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

No. I guess part of healing would be that eventually you won't need it.

[Anna]

Yeah, I'm kind of hopeful. But then there is also a fear as well, of forgetting. You know, like if I do forget it, what if it happens again and

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

John doesn't actually want to forget it either?

[John]

So shame, I know, is not helpful. Shame is not really gonna serve us well. It's just gonna cause me to wallow in self pity, withdraw, whereas Guilt.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

It might sound weird, but John sees a certain amount of guilt as helpful.

[John]

Not too much, because then it becomes overwhelming and then I can't really function, but not enough. Then that's sort of not acknowledging what happened, what I did, and becoming complacent.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Lets talk about sex specifically, because every couple trying to stay together after infidelity is going to have to rebuild sexual intimacy at some point as part of that process. And that can happen in lots of different ways because again, all couples are different. For some people, sex just won't be possible until trust is completely rebuilt, which might mean a long time, but others can want to have sex again really soon after. That's how it went for Anna and John.

[Anna]

And it did happen quite within the month, I think afterwards, which I was kind of horrified in myself a little bit. I was like, why would you do that with this person that would do these awful things to you?

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

I mean, I know why you would. When you're feeling insecure in your relationship, sex can be a really good way to reconnect and reassure yourselves that everything's gonna be all right.

[Anna]

And I think there was a little bit. They talk about it being kind of a trauma, bonding as well. But it maybe was nice that we did kind of and dare I say, rip the band aid off sooner. You know, when I talked and heard from other people and they're like six months a year out and they're like, no. And I'm like, but if you can't in that time, are you ever. Like, when will you ever connect?

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

The first time that Anna and John had sex after the affairs were discovered was pretty intense.

[Anna]

It was very emotional, everything. I was like bawling my eyes out and all of a sudden we're making out. And it was like some terrible romance novel where, you know, dark, dark romance novel, you know.

[John]

Yeah, I remember that being very emotional. I remember really feeling like, oh my God, I've missed you so much.

[Anna]

But then I think from that the comms sex comms increased.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Remember when I said that a lot of therapists view infidelity as a valuable wake up call for relationships? Well, that can apply to people's sex lives too. Back when Anna and John first got together, the sex was nice, but there were little, maybe not red flags, but orange flags that would have been good to investigate and unpack at the time.

[Anna]

We did have good sex, but there were times where I would initiate in certain ways that he maybe reacted in a way that was not so positive. Like I surprised him once at work and he Was not, like, eventually it was okay. But the initial reaction was like, the

[John]

anxiety, this is too much.

[Anna]

The reaction that I was kind of continuously getting was

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

over time, this pattern where Anna came in hot and excited, like, woo. And John responded with. Began to eat away at their sexual connection, but they didn't know how to talk about it.

[Anna]

I was like, oh, I don't know what you want. You're not telling me what you want. There's no way we can talk about sexual. Let's just have sex.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

So they would try to just have sex.

[Anna]

He'd be half asleep. He'd roll over and try it on. I'm like, I don't want that. And I didn't say what I did want, but I said I didn't want this.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

And John was having even more trouble finding his words when it came to sex, literally.

[John]

I've only recently been able to say the word cog. Cause for a very long time, I was just like, I can't say that word in my. My friends would be bantering, and I would just be like, I'm mortified.

[Anna]

Say it again. Say it again.

[John]

Cock.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

After the D day or D days, this has all started to shift, and both of them have not only started to figure out what they actually do want from sex together, but how to ask for it.

[Anna]

John has been articulating what he wants, what he enjoys, and it's even silly things. Like, he was like, I want to do dirty talk. And I was like, oh, okay, we can do that. Is that it? Like, is that big revelation? You're not, like, wanting me to, like, dress up in, like, a leather suit and, like, you know, get a gimp mask instead of cock something?

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

I just want to say cock.

[Anna]

I just want to say pussy. Okay.

[Naomi Ekparigan]

Okay. All right.

[Anna]

Well, we can totally make that happen. And also, like, me being able to say, yeah, I want to be a dirty slut sometimes in my relationship, you know? And that's okay.

[John]

Yeah.

[Anna]

I read recently Want by Gillian Anderson. Fantastic, you know, about the female desires and the fantasy, you know, And I'm like, it's been a long time since. Since I had a fantasy.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Expanding their vocab has led to expanding their toy collection as well.

[Anna]

We've got a little pink suitcase, and it'll bring out the pink suitcase. So that's quite fun. It is quite fun.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

And all of this adds up to Anna and John totally against the odds. Fifteen years and more than a few ruptures in having the best sex of their entire relationship.

[Anna]

This is kind of what I've always wanted. And I'm assuming that's what you've always wanted as well, so that's quite nice.

[Hotels.com Advertiser]

Yeah.

[John]

I think it's so hard that. Why did this have to go this way to get to what we wanted, needed?

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Maybe it's not ideal to have to go through the pain of nearly burning it all to the ground in order to rebuild something stronger. It's probably not the way you'd choose to do it. Although I guess maybe securely attached people can get it right the first time. I. I don't know. I've never met one. But there's something I love about stories like this. About people who fall for each other and bring all of their shit along with them. The traumas and dramas and insecurities and fears who go through the wars trying to figure out how to do this thing called love, despite the fact that they've maybe never been shown or taught how to do it, and who inevitably fuck up because of course they do. And two, even when the easiest option would be to walk away, I did you wrong.

[John]

I'll go out the door. You won't see me again.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Instead choose to give it one more crack to throw everything on the table and see if they can't just make it work.

[John]

I will stay here. I will try. As challenging and stressful as it's been, there's been enough hope there. I feel gratitude to be here and appreciation. I know that you've been worried that it's all going to be too much and I'll call it, but you can be angry at me and I understand.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Anna and John are still deep in the hard work of repair. They're taking things day by day. Some days hope prevails, whereas on others, despair. Only time will tell if they manage to pull it off.

[Anna]

I don't think I haven't even now said, oh, we'll stay together. It's just been like we're just getting on. And it's tricky because I think that we're in a constant state of him having to prove himself to me, which kind of sucks, you know, I'm like, how everyone's listening, like, oh, my God. Oh, they should just break up. Jesus, why does he have to go the extra mile all the time?

[John]

But that's showing up, right?

[Anna]

It is, but I'm kind of expecting you to show up, like 150%.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

And then there's part of you that wonders at what point asking for 150% is going to become too much and he's out.

[Anna]

Exactly. At what point Are you just going to be like, you are actually expecting

[John]

too much of me now, but that's sort of the choice, and I think that's the price to be here.

[Anna]

But I will. I'm kind of hoping, I'm aware of that, that over time, if you consistently show up and go the extra mile, occasionally those wounds will be less apparent and I will start trusting that you're just actually going to have my best interest at heart.

[John]

Showing that I have your best interests at heart and being consistent. Yeah.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

Let's imagine again that vase that represents Anna and John's relationship. This vase was fragile to start with. And every time there was a rupture, a fight, an eye roll, an unanswered text, it grew more fragile, its surface laced with hairline cracks that they never thought to tend to. When Anna discovered John's betrayals, it was like the vase was nudged off its pedestal and fell to the floor. It shattered into pieces. It would have been easier to throw it out, to say goodbye and walk away. But they decided to try and mend it. Piece by painstaking piece, they picked up each shard. They held them up to the light, talked gently about what they saw, and repeated each other's words back like a mirror. Then, when they were sure they were speaking the same language, they joined them back together, knowing now that what goes unseen can still do damage. They chose to repair their vase with kintsugi, the centuries old Japanese art that uses gold to mend the joins. The cracks are highlighted rather than hidden. They become part of what makes it more beautiful as well as stronger. The vase will never be the same, but it's theirs. It holds their story. Every fracture, every repair, every moment. They chose to turn back towards each other. In the next episode of the Good Sex Project, we're hanging out with a couple of single folks in their 40s.

[John]

Do I just desire the Cinderella story or do I really want someone in my life?

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

I just wanted it so bad that

[Anna]

I lost myself entirely.

[Melody Thomas (Narrator)]

And with the help of one incredible single lady, we're gonna flip the sad, older single person narrative on its head. We are happy and flourishing because we are single, not in spite of it. That's in episode three of the Good Sex Project out next week. If you loved this episode, please do share it with friends, family, or even complete strangers. You can tell that person at the sauna or your book club or the cafe or the bathroom line at the gig all about this amazing podcast and we would really appreciate it. The Good Sex Project was made by PopSoc Media. It was written and developed by me, Melody Thomas. Our producer and audio editor is Kirsten Johnstone. Co producers are Kay Heke and Alaina Bates. Phil Brownlee recorded me in the studio and our sound mix is by Mark Chesterman. Paddy Fred did the music and some of the sound design. Thank

[Anna]

you.

[Acast Host]

Acast Powers the World's Best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Naomi Ekparigan]

Hey everybody, I'm Naomi Ekparagan.

[Andy Beckerman]

And I'm Andy Beckerman.

[Naomi Ekparigan]

We're a real life couple and a real life couple of comedians. And we're the hosts of the podcast Couples Therapy.

[Andy Beckerman]

We're the only comedy relationship podcast ever. Yeah, I said it. And we're so good. We've been written up in both the New York Times and we made Grindr's list of top podcasts.

[Naomi Ekparigan]

Yes, we're giving you that high, low appeal trust on the show. We talk to guests like Bob the

[Andy Beckerman]

Drag Queen, Angelica Ross, Bowen, Yang, Janelle James, Danny Pudi, Darcy Carden, Paul F. Tompkins, and more.

[Naomi Ekparigan]

All about love, mental health, and everything in between. And we answer your relationship questions. We are two unlicensed comedians just trying to help you out.

[Andy Beckerman]

So open your hearts, loosen your butts because we got a lot of laughs

[Naomi Ekparigan]

and a lot of real talk just for you.

[Andy Beckerman]

Download Couples Therapy Wherever you get your podcasts,

[Acast Host]

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