The Big Story: Cornered Rats Always Squeal (EP4982)

Summary

The Great Detectives of Old Time Radio

The Big Story: "Cornered Rats Always Squeal" (EP4982)

Aired: May 26, 2026
Host: Adam Graham

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Episode Overview

This episode features a dramatized adaptation from the files of the Pittsburgh Press, centering on reporter Chester "Chet" Potter, who overcomes his distaste for informants ("rats" or "stool pigeons") to break the case of a murdered jeweler—a killing with seemingly no clues and a haunting sense of futility. The story explores themes of criminal loyalty, betrayal, and the ethical quandaries faced by those seeking justice, highlighting both the effectiveness and moral ambiguity of relying on underworld informants. Adam Graham adds reflective commentary after the episode, focusing on the fine line between justice and the means to achieve it.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Crime and Long Dead Ends

• The story kicks off with the murder of Emmanuel Liebman, a jeweler, found dead with eight bullets in his body (03:42).
• Despite heavy firepower, no witnesses and no evidence surface, and reporter Chet Potter’s reputation for “no convictions” (05:54) is reinforced.

Notable Quote:
Jack Boudreau (ADA):

“This looks like one of your specialties, Potter... No conviction!” (05:45)

Potter’s weary internal monologue elucidates his frustration not with his job, but with the moral realities he’s forced to report.

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2. A Second Murder Reignites the Case

• 16 months later, another man, Keech, is gunned down but survives temporarily.
• Through tense bedside interrogation, Keech and other underworld figures refuse to talk—highlighting their “code of silence” (07:27).

Notable Moment:
Chet Potter presses Keech for information, but Keech retorts:

“My mama told me a long time ago, don’t talk to cops and don’t talk to cop reporters.” (07:56)

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3. When Rats Squeal: Carr Turns Informant

• Thomas Carr, caught on a robbery charge, volunteers information in exchange for favors with the DA and parole board (10:11).
• Carr describes in detail how the gang operated, implicating accomplices Merrill and Noonan, and subtly suggests Noonan’s involvement in the original jeweler’s murder (11:19), though offers only circumstantial evidence.

Quote:
Carr on motivation:

“First of all, I turn state’s evidence… I make convictions easier… So who knows? He might be a little lighter on me.” (10:11)

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4. Convictions at Last—But an Aftertaste of Injustice

• Based on Carr’s testimony, all three—Merrill, Noonan, and Carr—are convicted of various charges (12:38).
• Potter finally loses his “no conviction” nickname, achieving three in one day, but feels a hollow victory due to the nature of the informant’s betrayal.

Memorable Reflection:
Potter ruminates:

“Something about this louse who has put himself and two others behind bars turns your stomach... there ought to be satisfaction in this for you.” (13:26)

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5. Dilemmas of Justice & Underworld Ethics

• Potter and Boudreau wrestle with the ethics of relying solely on a stool pigeon (16:59).
• Merrill approaches Potter with a new claim: Noonan is innocent of the jeweler’s murder, and Carr himself pulled the trigger (18:46).
• Merrill provides a detailed account of the crime, including minute details about the cafe, the bus, and dropping the murder weapon in the river—specifics only someone present would know (21:01).

Notable Exchange:
Jack Boudreau questions motive:

“Why are you telling me you were the other guy in the store?” (21:34)
Merrill admits:
“First off, I like Noonan… Second off, if they was to try Noonan on what Carr said, they’d never get a conviction… So why let him get away with saying I did that when he and I did it?” (21:45)

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6. Betrayal upon Betrayal: Face-Off at the Crime Scene

• Carr and Merrill are confronted together at the jewelry store, each reenacting their roles, with a key witness (the waitress, Francie) corroborating Merrill’s story (24:33).
• Merrill directs police to the location of the murder weapon in the river, providing closure.

Memorable Moment:
Carr, cornered, denies all as Merrill describes every detail; both men rage at each other—“You dirty stooly... At a stoolie calling stoolie.” (25:03, 25:14)

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7. Resolution and Reflection

• Both killers are swiftly convicted and sentenced to life after a dramatic trial (25:48).
• The episode leaves the audience questioning the reliability of criminal informants and pondering the cyclical nature of betrayal in the criminal world.

Closing Insight:
Host Adam Graham comments (29:15):

“I think at its core the episode is about… the conflicting feeling that many have about the whole issue of informants. It’s not too conflicted for Potter. He’s just like, I hate informants, the squealers, the stool pigeons. Nevertheless, they are an important tool that law enforcement and prosecutors are able to get even more dangerous people off the street… Although this shows how that can be abused.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• “No Conviction. Potter. They call you at the paper and at headquarters…” Narrator (05:31)
• “First payroll was like $29,000… Merrill, the kid, he’s been studying up. He planted case to place…” Carr (08:50)
• “How I know that Nona not torped this jeweler, Mr. Attorney, is this how I know for an absolute, absolute fact?” Carr (15:06)
• “If I had it to give you, I’d give it to you so fast to make his head spin. He don’t make mistakes. Not his kind.” Noonan (17:06)
• “Who do you think?” – “Carr.” Merrill, implicating Carr as the true murderer (18:56)
• “That kind of detail could maybe send a guy to the chair. Why are you telling me this, Merrill?” Boudreau (21:24)
• “I told you how it happened... There was two guys on a job. They took a bus, a number 19 bus to Franklin Avenue..." Merrill (21:41)
• “A stool pigeon, stool down, burning in desperate anger at the man he tried to betray. Here it is, the full cycle. The code of the jungle. The ethics of desperation.” Narrator (25:14)

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Host Commentary (Adam Graham)

(29:15)

• Graham points out the episode’s honest portrayal of the discomfort around informants, noting that while many may dislike “squealers,” they often provide the only means of convicting dangerous criminals.
• He observes that Potter's nickname ("no conviction") was a little odd, as convictions aren't technically the reporter’s job: “This isn’t like baseball where you start to think, I wonder if that reporter is jinxing us! No, that’s not how law enforcement works. Not at least how it should work.”

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Timeline Breakdown

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |------------|------------------------------------------------| | 03:09 | Dramatic episode begins | | 05:45 | Potter’s reputation discussed | | 07:27 | Hospital interrogation of Keech | | 08:50 | Carr turns informant, gang described | | 12:38 | Sentencings, Potter’s conflicted victory | | 16:59 | Reflections on rats and betrayals | | 18:46 | Merrill claims Carr was the true killer | | 21:01 | Merrill details the morning of the murder | | 24:33 | Key witness Francie ID’s the suspects | | 25:48 | Swift convictions, case closed | | 29:15 | Adam Graham’s analysis/comments |

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Conclusion

"Cornered Rats Always Squeal" examines the murky system of justice where the best weapon is often a criminal with a grudge—an antiheroic “rat.” Through richly drawn characters and a tautly plotted case, the episode brings Golden Age radio’s moral complexities vividly to life. If you enjoy probing the ethical back alleys of detective fiction, this installment delivers, laying bare the costs—and brutal ironies—of getting to the truth.

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Transcript

[Starbucks Narrator]

What's up, y'?

[Chet Potter]

All?

[Starbucks Narrator]

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[Lowe's Advertiser]

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[Adam Graham]

Welcome to the Great Detectives of Old Time Radio from Boise, Idaho. This is your host, Adam Graham. In a moment, we're going to bring you this week's episode of the Big Story. But first I want to encourage you. If you're enjoying the podcast, please follow us using your favorite podcast software. And I do want to encourage you to check out our other podcasts. And today I'm highlighting the amazing world of [e-mail] Tomorrow we begin our summer series which will feature Colombo Killers in Old Time Radio. It's a great summer coming up as we'll be playing Old Time Radio programs featuring actors who would go on to play the murderer in an episode of Columbo. We'll both play the Old Time Radio program and we'll talk about their career as well as their Columbo episode with stars such as Eddie Albert, Anne Baxter, Ray Milan, Jackie Cooper and so much more. Check it [e-mail] but now, from August 16, 1950, here is cornered Rats always squeal.

[Narrator]

The Big Story.

[Chet Potter]

That's all I have, gentlemen. Just these watches you see in the case and these rings, and none of them suit you. I think I want something better, maybe with little diamonds on it. Let's see some of your more expensive stuff. I got nothing in the store just now. Don't you remember? We were in last week. You showed us some of those buttes in a tray right over there. You got him. Remember Merrill?

[Narrator]

Sure.

[Theodore Merrill]

A whole big tray full of him.

[Narrator]

I remember.

[Chet Potter]

Well, I see. I don't think there's any left, but I see. Now you stand there. I know what you want. I'm going to call the police. Not a good idea, Liebmann. You think I won't shoot this gun if I have to? I think you might pop, if I gave you a chance. Hey, stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Yeah, I guess you're right. It's kind of dead.

[Narrator]

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. From the pages of the Pittsburgh Press comes the story of a reporter who used the code of the underworld, even though it turned his stomach to do so. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The story as it actually happened. Chester Potter story as he lived. The first killing was of a jeweler named Emmanuel Liebman. He was found dead with eight bullets in his body, sprawled behind his neat counter with an unfired gun in his hand. It was one of those things. Eight shots fired at 9:30 in the morning in the Hazelwood section of Pittsburgh. And no one heard a shot. No one had seen anything. You got to the store, you 51 year old Chet Potter of the Pittsburgh Press. 29 years on this kind of thing and 29 years of hating it. Not the work, but the facts about people that you got to report. And in the past seven years, you've gotten yourself a nickname you don't like. No Conviction. Potter. They call you at the paper and at headquarters because the last 12 stories you were on no conviction.

[Chet Potter]

This looks like one of your specialties, Potter.

[Jack Boudreau]

Ha ha, ha. Very funny. You mean no conviction.

[Chet Potter]

As the assistant district attorney, I haven't got an opinion yet.

[Jack Boudreau]

For publication, that is.

[Chet Potter]

But it's just plain Jack Boudreau. This is a no conviction if I ever saw one.

[Jack Boudreau]

How could it be? What were there? Eight shots fired? Nobody heard anything?

[Chet Potter]

No.

[Jack Boudreau]

Well, he must have run out of the store. Somebody must have seen him.

[Chet Potter]

Well, nobody did.

[Jack Boudreau]

What kind of family is there?

[Chet Potter]

You're gonna like this. Wife and five kids.

[Jack Boudreau]

What about the stoolies? Anything doing there? Even if somebody were to talk, what's

[Chet Potter]

there to tie to it? Nothing. No witnesses, no gun. Just eight.38 caliber slugs.

[Jack Boudreau]

A guy with five kids.

[Narrator]

Just because the Assistant District attorney, Jack Boudreau said, even if the stoolies talked, what is there to tie it with? You didn't let it rest there. That was the way you Were you saw the family, talked to the three wide eyed girls and the two dazed boys. The inconsolable widow. You made the rounds.

[Chet Potter]

Pushed, probed, yanked, asked questions.

[Narrator]

And you got just where you'd gotten on your last 12 stories. No conviction, no suspects, nowhere. Then 16 months go by. The second killing had this much in common with the first. Eight shots were also fired. An enormous quantity of lead poured into the body of a man named Keech, a driver for a robbery gang. A man named Keech who hangs on to life despite eight.38 caliber slugs in his body.

[Chet Potter]

Who did it, Keech? Get me a drink of water.

[Jack Boudreau]

Yeah, yeah, just suck on the straw. Who was it?

[Chet Potter]

Look, you want to know me better? Your friend Boudreau's over there in the corner.

[Theodore Merrill]

He ain't asking.

[Chet Potter]

He ain't asking questions.

[Narrator]

Leave me alone, huh?

[Jack Boudreau]

Come on, Keech. I don't care one hoot about you, but when that kind of lead is poured into two people, maybe the same guy did it. Now, look, Keech, you're going to die. You're going to die soon and you're

[Chet Potter]

going to die hard.

[Jack Boudreau]

Give yourself a quarter of a chance to get some peace before you get out of here.

[Chet Potter]

My mama told me a long time ago, don't talk to cops and don't talk to cop reporters. Give me the water, Chad.

[Jack Boudreau]

Yeah, I know. Go to the underworld.

[Chet Potter]

Something like that. But there are exceptions. You mean it? There's a nice, quiet, talking type by the name of Tommy Carr down in my office. I just came up here for the routine confirmations, if any. There being none, maybe we'll adjourn and listen to Tommy Carr. Oh, Keech, I hope it doesn't hurt you too much. Interrupt Dead or ye.

[Narrator]

Mr. Thomas Carr is a louse from way back. How old is he? 34, 29 years. A louse since he was five. And now the louse picked up on a robbery charge is talking true to his character.

[Chet Potter]

Well, the job was well planned. I gotta say that. First payroll was like $29,000. See, there was four of us. I gotta get the boys real credit. You know Merrill, the kid, he's been studying up. He planted case to place. Took weekly timings on the paymaster and cetera cage. Well, he wasn't good on his brain, see, but trustworthy, kind. You know what I mean? Always did a good job when he was told what to do. Did he die yet?

[Jack Boudreau]

He's still hanging on.

[Chet Potter]

Amazing. These young kids, the stamina. They got eight slugs in them. Gotta give them credit.

[Jack Boudreau]

Come on. Come on.

[Chet Potter]

Yeah, so anyway, Cage got a kind of little greedy. He thought the fourth he was supposed to get wasn't enough on account of how he was taking bigger chances and et cetera. So he puts a gun on Merrill, Merrill puts a gun on him.

[Jack Boudreau]

And that's that fight among you guys, is that it?

[Chet Potter]

Well, guys are very funny, you know. You put $29,000 on the table between four crooks. A lot of trouble can come out of that.

[Jack Boudreau]

And you were one of the four.

[Chet Potter]

Oh, now, Mr. Boudreaux, you know what you got on me. What chance have I got? I'm a parolee. I'm not supposed to be associating with this kind of folks.

[Theodore Merrill]

You.

[Chet Potter]

You got a right to send me back for 13 years. Right now, I don't deny it. I didn't shoot Keech Merrill. Tonight, you cops were an aching your beard.

[Jack Boudreau]

What are you telling us all this for?

[Chet Potter]

Well, it's like this. First of all, I turn state's evidence. The da, he says, like he always says, I can promise you no special consideration. But. But at the same time, while he's saying that, in the back of his mind, he's kind of grateful to me in a way, you see. I mean, I make convictions easier, et cetera. So who knows? He might be a little lighter on me. And the second is that parole board. I gotta go before I know those guys. They're like a fellow who's cooperative, if you know what I mean.

[Jack Boudreau]

Yeah, I heard you were kind of a nice. Kind of a laugh.

[Chet Potter]

Yeah, I do. Now, let's see. You want the other member of the gang. I told you there was four. That's me and Marilyn Keach. And the fourth? The fourth is Noonan, 7525 Noonan. We call them that on account of that's the Cuddeho strike.

[Jack Boudreau]

We know, we know. Come on.

[Chet Potter]

Well, now, if I could make a suggestion to you. I think this is gonna surprise you. I'd pick up Noonan on the robbery. Good for 10 or 20 at least. But if you stopped here, you'd be missing a bet. How's that? Would you happen to remember a kind of a jeweler by the name of Emanuel Liebman?

[Jack Boudreau]

What about Liebman?

[Chet Potter]

Well, nobody thought about Noonan and Liebman today. Now, I can't say exactly that Noonan shot him since I didn't see him to it, only. Well, I ask you, Mr. Attorney ain't 75, 25, well known for the way he keeps squeezing the trigger. You saying Noonan did it. Well, all I know is the morning of that shooting, like, 15, 20 minutes after it happened, I got a phone call from Noonan. And he says, I'm in trouble. Bad card. So I says, come by, I'll help you.

[Jack Boudreau]

Yeah, you helped him, all right. You helped him find.

[Chet Potter]

Well, I kept my mouth shut 16 months without saying a word, didn't I? What's the matter? You don't like my testimony, mister?

[Narrator]

All right, all right.

[Chet Potter]

I want a statement on all this car signed. I don't want you suddenly discovering I nearly broke your arm to get it out of here. I don't think that's fair, attorney. I may be a stally, but nobody says I ever went back on my word. If you want the real Frank Droth, I was wondering how come you didn't have a secretary in here, et cetera, to take it down? As I was telling you, I gotta repeat the whole thing.

[Narrator]

Merrill is picked up and Noonan and Carr locked away. And for this kind of expert information, a good crook always knows precisely what is needed for a sure conviction. The robbery charge is slapped on them. Hold them while you try to prove the murder. And out of it comes Theodore Merrill.

[Chet Potter]

You are sentenced to the state penitentiary for a term of not less than 20 and not more than 40 years. David Noonan, you are sentenced to the state penitentiary for complicity and murder in the second degree, 30 to 60 years. Thomas Carr, you are sentenced to return to the county jail to serve out the balance of your unexpired sentence of 13 years. For violation of parole.

[Narrator]

Keech dies. Merrill and Noonan go to the Western penitentiary. And Carr, smiling because he knows it, to the county jail and an easy life awaiting the other cases he's consented to suit.

[Chet Potter]

I ain't such a dog. How am I? Even if I ain't a very nice

[Narrator]

guy, and you lose your nickname, Chet Potter. No more, no conviction. Potter. Three convictions in one day this time, and you ought to be glad. But something about this louse who has put himself and two others behind bars turns your stomach. There ought to be satisfaction in this for you. But there is. Because you remember the three girls of Emmanuel Liebman, the jeweler. You remember the faces of his sons,

[Chet Potter]

his wife, her words.

[Narrator]

You want to get this louse if

[Jack Boudreau]

you can not for parole violation. No, that's not enough.

[Narrator]

But how? As long as there's crime, as long as there are desperate men and women who take desperate chances, there'll be a code of ethics. You know this well. Chet Potter, 29 years on the police run. And you know the code of ethics is a false one. A false code of loyalty to self, of loyalty to crime. And you also know that as long as there is such a code, there

[Chet Potter]

will be betrayals of the code because it's profitable to betray in crime.

[Narrator]

And there will always be rats, singers,

[Chet Potter]

talkers, stoolies like Thomas Carr. How I know that Nona not torped this jeweler, Mr. Attorney, is this how I know for an absolute, absolute fact?

[Narrator]

And as long as there are such men, you'll hate them. And as you're doing now, not for the love of other criminals, but for the hate of this one, you catch

[Chet Potter]

them if you can.

[Narrator]

So you go to Noonan, the accused.

[Chet Potter]

Noonan.

[Narrator]

Noonan, who is serving 30 years for complicity in second degree murder.

[Chet Potter]

Look at my hand. Look at it. I stayed here all day yesterday and the day before, smacking my palm with my other hand.

[Jack Boudreau]

Well, now, just what are you telling me, Noonan? You didn't kill Liebman? You didn't shoot the jeweler?

[Chet Potter]

Telling you. Telling you. I'm telling you nothing. I'm telling nobody nothing. You ain't fit to die a decent debt, Mister. I don't know what kind of connections you got, but get that dog put in here five minutes. Let him walk in the yard. Five minutes. It won't be me, not Merrill, Nita, who he ratted on. Just let him walk in the yard. That's the only kind of thing he deserves. I asked you, did you do it? What do you want? My word against the stoolies? Cops like stoolies don't you know yet. Mister, we got 30 years to live here. I got nothing to lose. What do I got to lie to you for? I didn't do it. If I could get my hands on that dog, maybe I'd stop hitting myself at least. You know something, mister? A lot of guys in here would say a lot of nice things about you if you could get that dog.

[Jack Boudreau]

That doesn't interest me.

[Chet Potter]

I know that. But maybe you got your own reasons. I don't care what they are. Just get him.

[Narrator]

It's a curious thing, but actually, you, Chet Potter, reporter, have no real good reasons to get this man. Because between Carr and Noonan, it's six of one and half a dozen of another between Carr and Merrill and the others sent up choose between a stoolie and a gunman. Rationally, you can't. And yet you want to, in the bitterest, most vindictive sense of the word, you want to get this rat, this stooly.

[Chet Potter]

This. This squealer, this louse. You've been making the rounds of places quite a lot now, haven't you? On him. Car.

[Jack Boudreau]

Who told you?

[Chet Potter]

Yeah, what's the difference? Let me tell you, if I had it to give you, I'd give it to you so fast to make his head spin. He's as dirty as they come. I can tell you this out of private experience. He don't make mistakes. Not his kind.

[Jack Boudreau]

Well, we'll see about that anyhow.

[Chet Potter]

Thanks.

[Narrator]

You'll see about that. No mistakes. And so you keep at it. Talking to hard eyed men. Watching young fighters coming into the fight game. Young grifters who hang around wherever a buck can be promoted.

[Jack Boudreau]

Car.

[Theodore Merrill]

A pleasure.

[Chet Potter]

A pleasure. Mister. Remember that hold up in a gas station on South Pennsylvania breaking an entry.

[Theodore Merrill]

What was that?

[Chet Potter]

Two years ago, 1946, two autos disappeared off North Street. A Chevy and a Pontiac sedan. September 48th, car done it. Two drunks were rolled coming out of the Elite Club. January 6th, 1950. This year, car done it.

[Jack Boudreau]

You'll write that out?

[Chet Potter]

Give me the paper.

[Narrator]

It's good, but it's not good enough. So what? Add two years, add three years or five, he's got 13 already. No, this case warrants more than the difference between. Between 13 and 18 years. Then unexpectedly.

[Chet Potter]

Look, mister, guy don't tell his name, but he tells you something. Okay?

[Jack Boudreau]

It depends.

[Chet Potter]

A car.

[Jack Boudreau]

It still depends.

[Chet Potter]

All right. There's a guy who wants to talk to you. He's in Western Penitentiary, but he wants to talk to somebody outside. His name is Merrill.

[Jack Boudreau]

The other one, Car Rattadon.

[Chet Potter]

That's right. He's got a real warm story.

[Jack Boudreau]

Real.

[Theodore Merrill]

Noonan never did it. Noonan had nothing to do with the killing of Lehman. That jeweler got killed by somebody else.

[Jack Boudreau]

Who?

[Theodore Merrill]

He went in the store about 9:30. When the jeweler went back to get his gun. He didn't wait. He shot him eight times.

[Narrator]

Who?

[Theodore Merrill]

Who do you think?

[Chet Potter]

Carr.

[Jack Boudreau]

Carr?

[Theodore Merrill]

Why else do you think he's ratting? To cover his own stinking self up.

[Jack Boudreau]

Okay, let's go on from here. All I got so far is your word.

[Narrator]

Brief.

[Theodore Merrill]

I told you, didn't I? You're on the outside. You can prove it. You can do it. I told you, it's a fact. Noone had never done it. It was Carr all the way.

[Narrator]

Car.

[Chet Potter]

You wait. But there's no more.

[Narrator]

Nothing more to come. This desperate man has had his desperate say and he's not saying anything further. And so you take it, since you're on the Outside. And maybe you can find the proof. To the Assistant District attorney.

[Chet Potter]

To Jack Boudreau. Sure.

[Jack Boudreau]

I like it. I like it fine.

[Chet Potter]

I think it's true, but I think something else, too.

[Jack Boudreau]

What's that?

[Chet Potter]

Look, these two guys, Merrill and Noonan, got 30 to 60 years ahead of him based on Carr's testimony. Why shouldn't they say he did it, discredit him? Whether we like him or not, And I don't. This boy Carr is our prize. It's on this boy's word those men are in jail.

[Jack Boudreau]

Why don't you do what Noonan suggested?

[Chet Potter]

Put him in Western Penn for a couple of days. Nah, all that'd be left is shreds. We wouldn't get the proof he killed the jeweler. You wouldn't get anything except a little screaming by the Reform Party and the legislature for not protecting our inmates. No, I need this guy. I'm keeping him in the county jail. He's good for at least six more sessions. Songs, I mean.

[Jack Boudreau]

Look, Merrill, try to understand this. I took what you told me to where it ought to go and I got nowhere with it. I need more. More information. More facts.

[Chet Potter]

Proof. I told you.

[Theodore Merrill]

What do you want me to say? I told you how it happened.

[Jack Boudreau]

All I've got is your statement. And brother, you've got a record as long as you are high. What do you think your statement is worth? That he killed a guy? As long as you stick to that, he's going to stay right where he is, laughing at you and maybe waiting until Noonan burns.

[Theodore Merrill]

There was two guys on a job. They took a bus, a number 19 bus to Franklin Avenue, about half a block from the jewelry store. They got out. It was going on 9:15. The job was set for 9:30 as a little one armed place two stores away from the jewelry store. They went in, one of the guys had coffee with a roll. The other had coffee with a cinnamon bun. The waitress servant was a short girl, kind of dumpy, with dark skin and big blue eyes. Wears a hair and a bun. Her name's Francie. That kind of stuff you want, keep

[Jack Boudreau]

going, you're doing fine.

[Theodore Merrill]

After the coffee, they went in the store. The counters on the right side with the cheap stu in the back of the right angles. I was empty. The stuff's in the back of that with a handle on the right side of the door. When Liebman twisted the handle down, that's when he came up with a gun in his hand. Then car squeezes the trigger and he keeps on squeezing it till the guy falls and the two of them ran out and got on the bus. The number 19 bus going the other way.

[Jack Boudreau]

Well, that's quite a statement. That kind of detail could maybe send a guy to the chair. Why are you telling me this, Merrill?

[Theodore Merrill]

What do you mean? Because I want to get the dog.

[Jack Boudreau]

No, I don't mean that. I mean, why are you telling me you were the other guy in the store, the guy with car.

[Chet Potter]

I'll tell you.

[Theodore Merrill]

First off, I like Noonan. And even though he's gonna stay in here, I don't want Noonan to go for this. He didn't do it. And second off, if they was to try Noonan on what Carr said, they'd never get a conviction and they'd sweat Carr out, and sooner or later, that louse had talk and he'd say, I did it sooner or later. So why let him get away with saying I did that when he and I did it?

[Jack Boudreau]

A crazy, warped sort of way. It makes good sense now. I'll see what I can do.

[Narrator]

You're cautious now because you've got to be, because this is betrayal of the betrayed. Maybe there's another twist coming and it'll shift the whole thing back and the double crosser will try to double cross the man who double crossed him. And Carr does at that.

[Chet Potter]

I should have heard that one. I should have been around when he said it. He's a smart kid, that Merrill. He'll go a long way if you don't kill him, Face. So we learned that if you put a story with plenty of details in it, like what the guy ate, where the gun was, how many shots was fired and stuff, et cetera. These young kids, they're smart, real smart. The only thing about it. The only thing about it, I got so many alibis. Such a lot. There's no sense talking.

[Narrator]

But Jack Boudreau, the assistant district attorney, doesn't smile when Carl laughs. And neither do you. Instead, you bring them together in the jewelry store, the two desperate men who have betrayed each other. Carr and Merrill.

[Chet Potter]

Look, keep him away from me, will you? Just keep him away. Nobody's gonna bother you, Carr.

[Jack Boudreau]

Okay, Merrill.

[Chet Potter]

I'll talk. Okay.

[Theodore Merrill]

Where I stood, he stood over there, right near the counter. The old guy, Leben. He was over there.

[Chet Potter]

Okay if I walk over? Okay.

[Theodore Merrill]

He took out the tray from here, right here. Slid it out on the top of the counter. And Carr says, we don't want the cheap stuff. We want the more expensive. What an imagination. So the old guy walks back here and says, I haven't got any. Only a few. He turns around with a gun in his hand. And you started shooting, Carr. And I said, stop it. Stop shooting. And you kept on with that look on your face. Pumping it, pumping it, pumping it.

[Chet Potter]

Well, Carr, that dirty liar.

[Narrator]

Miss, take a good look, if you

[Jack Boudreau]

will, at these men. Did you ever see them before together?

[Chet Potter]

I don't think so.

[Theodore Merrill]

I sat on the first stool right here by the register, and he was next to me. He ordered a roll and coffee. And I said, what kind of buns you. And you said, we got nice cinnamon buns. And I said, give me one. You had on a pair of coral earrings that morning. And I said, where'd you get those? I'd like to get my girl a set. And you said, the 5 and 10. And I said, what's your name?

[Chet Potter]

And I said, francie. Now I remember them, the two of them, both of them. He asked for his coffee light.

[Jack Boudreau]

What do you say now, Carr?

[Chet Potter]

A dirty lie.

[Theodore Merrill]

We got off the number 19 bus about a half a block from here. Walked to the middle of the bridge where no one was looking. Right near the bank.

[Chet Potter]

Here.

[Theodore Merrill]

Drop the gun in. Dredge it and you'll find it.

[Jack Boudreau]

We will.

[Chet Potter]

We'll dredge.

[Theodore Merrill]

And when you get it, I'll identify it as his gun. And there'll be six guys I can name who'll identify it. It'll be empty. Every show fired.

[Chet Potter]

You dirty stooly.

[Theodore Merrill]

Living.

[Narrator]

No, you don't, stooly.

[Chet Potter]

You're right. Listen. At a stoolie calling stoolie.

[Narrator]

And there it is. A stool pigeon, stool down, burning in desperate anger at the man he tried to betray. Here it is, the full cycle. The code of the jungle. The ethics of desperation.

[Jack Boudreau]

Now, we read you that telegram from

[Narrator]

Chester Potter of the Pittsburgh Press.

[Jack Boudreau]

The killers in tonight's big story were brought to swift trial. I was the first witness to testify for the prosecution. And despite defense attorneys, arguments and pleas, both killers finally pleaded guilty and were quickly convicted. Both received life sentences at Western Penitentiary. In order to protect the names of people actually involved in tonight's authentic big story, the names of all characters in the dramatization were changed, with the exception of the newspaper reporter,

[Narrator]

Sam. This is the united states armed forces radio service.

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[Adam Graham]

Welcome Back. Here's the cast of this week's episode. Esther Potter was played by Bill Smith and everyone in the cast doubled. Not Bob Sloan in this one, but everyone else, including Bill Smith, who also played the murder victims. The others in the cast, Joan Shea, Larry Haynes, Bill Lipton, George Petri and Joe Desantis. I did chuckle a bit when you had Petri playing Bordeaux because so many of us remember him as Markham and his voice had the same quality. So it was like a more competent version of DA Marcum from Philomance. Now we don't have any real life insights on this case. This is another episode where the stories behind the Big Story website notes the original story has been identified. Summary to be available soon, but no summary available at the time of this recording. So I guess commenting on the story as a story, I think that at its core the episode is about and kind of glosses over the sort of conflicting feeling that many have about the whole issue of informants. It's not too conflicted for Potter. He's just like, I hate informants. The squalers, the stool pigeons. Nevertheless, they are an important tool that law enforcement and prosecutors are able to get even more dangerous people off the street. Although this shows how that can be abused. I did also think it was a little bit weird for them to him because his cases were going unsolved. You know, it would be one thing if that were his job, but that is technically the job of the police. I mean, this isn't like baseball where you start to think, I wonder if that reporter is jinxing us. No, that's not how law enforcement works. Not at least how it should work. Alright, well, now it's time to thank our Patreon Supporter of the day. And I want to thank Robert. Patreon supporter since March of 2025, currently supporting the podcast at the detective sergeant level. $7.14 or more per month. Thanks so much for your support, Robert. And that'll do it for today. If you're enjoying the podcast, please follow us using your favorite podcast software. And be sure to rate and review the podcast wherever you download it from. We'll be back next Tuesday with another episode of the Big Story. But join us back here tomorrow for Broadway's My Beat. Where.

[Floyd Gilmore]

Hey, what kept? Oh, yes, what is it?

[Jack Boudreau]

Your name? Floyd Gilmore.

[Floyd Gilmore]

Well, yes.

[Jack Boudreau]

What's. I'm Danny Clover, police. You mind if I come in?

[Chet Potter]

Well, what for?

[Jack Boudreau]

It's about John Dobson. I understand. What about John? Something's happened to him. He might die.

[Floyd Gilmore]

Yeah, you better come in.

[Chet Potter]

In Here.

[Floyd Gilmore]

He might die.

[Jack Boudreau]

He's been poisoned. He was found a while ago in his car.

[Floyd Gilmore]

John?

[Jack Boudreau]

I just talked to his wife. She said he'd been with you.

[Floyd Gilmore]

John never got here.

[Jack Boudreau]

What's the matter?

[Floyd Gilmore]

Don't you believe me?

[Jack Boudreau]

What was he coming to see you about?

[Floyd Gilmore]

I asked you something. Don't you believe me? I told you John never got here.

[Jack Boudreau]

I asked you something, too.

[Floyd Gilmore]

He was coming over to see me, that's all.

[Jack Boudreau]

But for to borrow a book, play chess.

[Floyd Gilmore]

One you can take fingerprints. Mister, I'm telling you, John wasn't here.

[Jack Boudreau]

That's going to be pretty tough to prove, Mr. Gilmore. John Dobson had plenty of time to be here, be poisoned and leave.

[Floyd Gilmore]

Be poisoned? You mean be murdered.

[Jack Boudreau]

If John Dobson dies, it'll be murder.

[Floyd Gilmore]

I'll tell you why he came here.

[Chet Potter]

Came here?

[Jack Boudreau]

You said he didn't.

[Floyd Gilmore]

All right, so I got mixed up. I got a quirk. I get my conjugations mixed when I'm under mental stress. Well, you want to listen to me or want to call me a liar and arrest me? Do what you want, mister.

[Narrator]

Go ahead.

[Jack Boudreau]

Tell me your story.

[Floyd Gilmore]

I had a friend I wanted John to meet.

[Jack Boudreau]

Mind if I ask why?

[Floyd Gilmore]

John doesn't get along with his wife? She didn't approve of his outside interest.

[Jack Boudreau]

You were going to introduce him to an outside interest?

[Floyd Gilmore]

Well, this girl is. This friend of mine is. Nice kid. Same kind of personality as John.

[Jack Boudreau]

Oh, that's right.

[Floyd Gilmore]

Pretty sure this friend of mine was. Well, fetching's the word. Not as pretty as Edna, not nearly as pretty as John's wife.

[Jack Boudreau]

What?

[Floyd Gilmore]

I could never understand that about John. A beautiful wife like Edna, all her dough. Why, he had so many outside interests. Why, he should.

[Jack Boudreau]

Where do I find this friend of yours?

[Narrator]

Who?

[Jack Boudreau]

Isabel?

[Floyd Gilmore]

At the New Howard Hotel. Ask for Isabel Martin, mister. Oh, and tell her I'm sorry. Tell her we couldn't make it tonight.

[Adam Graham]

I hope you'll be with us then. In the meantime, send your comments to box ThirteenReatectives.net Follow us on Twitter at Radio Detectives and check us out on Instagram. Instagram.com Great. Detectives from Boise, Idaho, this is your host, Adam Graham, signing off.

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[Narrator]

Hey, everyone.

[Theodore Merrill]

Check out this guy and his bird.

[Narrator]

What is this, your first date?

[Liberty Mutual Spokesperson]

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Narrator]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

[Liberty Mutual Spokesperson]

Anyways, get a [e-mail] or with your local agent.

[Chet Potter]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

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[Liberty Mutual Spokesperson]

And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Narrator]

Hey, everyone.

[Theodore Merrill]

Check out this guy and his bird.

[Narrator]

What is this, your first date?

[Liberty Mutual Spokesperson]

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Narrator]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

[Liberty Mutual Spokesperson]

Anyways, get a [e-mail] or with your local agent.

[Chet Potter]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.