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You Might Also Like: Math & Magic: Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing with Bob Pittman
Introducing Jewel: “It’s a lot less painful to be honest.” from Math & Magic: Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing with Bob Pittman. Follow the show: Math & Magic: Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing with Bob Pittman Jewel–with just that name, you know exactly who she is. With over 30 million albums sold worldwide, four Grammy nominations, and an American Music Award she has all the accomplishments of stardom, but didn’t get there the traditional way. She spent her childhood in Alaska performing in bars with her dad and left home at 15, struggling with homelessness as a young adult. It was performing at a coffee shop that led to a bidding war between four major labels and eventually a hit record. Yet the most surprising part of her career was when, at the peak of her fame, she stepped away from it all. Jewel recounts her journey navigating what she’s learned about mental health, the ebbs and flows of fame, and why she turned down a million dollar advance. L...
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- [00:00]
Bob Pittman
AI is rewriting the business playbook with productivity boosts and faster decision making coming to every industry. If you're not thinking about AI, you can bet your competition is. This is not where you want to drop the ball, but AI requires a lot of compute power, and with most cloud platforms, the cost for your AI workloads can spiral. That is, unless you're running on oci. Oracle Cloud Infrastructure this was the cloud built for AI, a blazing, fast, enterprise grade platform for your infrastructure, database, apps and all your AI workloads. OCI costs 50% less than other major hyperscalers for compute, 70% less for storage and 80% less for networking. Thousands of businesses have already scored with oci, including Vodafone, Thomson Reuters and Suno AI. Now the ball's in your court. Right now, Oracle can cut your current cloud bill in half if you move to OCI.
- [00:50]
Ryan Seacrest
Minimum financial commitment and other terms apply.
- [00:52]
Bob Pittman
Offer ends March 31st. See if your company qualifies for this Special offer@oracle.com strategic that's oracle.com strategic My.
- [01:00]
Child
Dad works in B2B marketing, but I never really knew what that meant. Then one day my dad came by my school for Career Day and told everyone in my class he was a big roaz man. Then he just kept saying things like the bigger the roaz the better. Over and over. My friends still laugh at me to this day. I think it means calculating a return on ad spend. One thing's for sure, I'll be known as the Roazman's kid for the rest of my days. Why couldn't you just be a fireman or a lawyer? Why? You ruined my life, dad.
- [01:35]
Ryan Seacrest
Not everyone gets B2B, but LinkedIn has the people who do. And with ads on LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people based on job title, industry likelihood to buy, and more. Start converting your B2B audience into high quality leads today. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com customer to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com customer to terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be, to Be hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's Stock up savings time now through March 25th. Spring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible cleaning items from Charmin, Tide and Downey and dinner essentials from Stouffer's, DiGiorno, Arby's and Violife, plus many more. Then clip the offer in our app for automatic event long savings stack up those rewards to save even more restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or safeway.com for more details at. Designer Shoe Warehouse we believe that shoes are an important part of, well, everything. From first steps to first dates, from.
- [02:38]
Jewel
All nighters to all time personal bests.
- [02:41]
Bob Pittman
From building pillow forts to building a.
- [02:43]
Jewel
Life for all the big and small moments that make up your whole world.
- [02:48]
Ryan Seacrest
DSW is there and we've got just the shoes. Find a shoe for every you from brands you love at brag worthy prices.
- [02:56]
Jewel
At your DSW store or dsw.com.
- [03:02]
Bob Pittman
You'Re.
- [03:02]
iHeartRadio
Listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeartRadio.
- [03:08]
Jewel
I knew I wanted to make a folk album at the height of grunge and I knew that the odds of us succeeding were really slim and it failed spectacularly for several years to the point where I started to go in and make a second album and give up on the first. But luckily Bob Dylan wanted to tour with me and he mentored me on tour and just told me to keep going and gave me the courage to keep going and eventually that album went on to be the best selling album of all time.
- [03:37]
Bob Pittman
Hi, I'm Bob Pippman and welcome to Math and Magic. On this episode we're going to explore creativity through music, art, poetry, philanthropy, activism and sometimes just for the soul. Our guest does all of that and has lived her life not the life others want her to live. She's one of those few one named people. Jewel. Jewel was born in Utah, grew up in Alaska, performed as a kid, learned to yodel at an early age, spent some time in Hawaii and down in San Diego. She had a huge early success as a singer songwriter but did not follow the usual trajectory of stardom. She built her own philosophy for her life and has expressed it through all she has created. Probably most important, she has an impressive life of service to others. Yes to her son and family, but also to those most in need. In other words, she's an impressive human in all ways and a super nice person. Welcome Jewel.
- [04:34]
Jewel
Jim, thank you. What a kind introduction.
- [04:36]
Bob Pittman
Well, we are going to dig into some meaty topics but first I want to do you in 60 seconds. Do you prefer cats or dogs?
- [04:45]
Jewel
Both.
- [04:46]
Bob Pittman
Early riser or night owl?
- [04:48]
Jewel
Early riser.
- [04:49]
Bob Pittman
West coast or East Coast?
- [04:50]
Jewel
Middle of the country.
- [04:51]
Bob Pittman
Coffee or tea?
- [04:53]
Jewel
Tea.
- [04:54]
Bob Pittman
Yodeling or singing?
- [04:56]
Jewel
Same thing.
- [04:57]
Bob Pittman
Books or movies?
- [04:59]
Jewel
Books.
- [05:00]
Bob Pittman
Cook or eat out?
- [05:02]
Jewel
Eat out.
- [05:02]
Bob Pittman
Comedy or drama?
- [05:04]
Jewel
Comedy.
- [05:05]
Bob Pittman
Call or text?
- [05:06]
Ryan Seacrest
Text.
- [05:07]
Bob Pittman
Bear lard biscuits or french fries?
- [05:10]
Jewel
Bear lard biscuits.
- [05:11]
Ryan Seacrest
Every day Bottle.
- [05:13]
Bob Pittman
Childhood hero.
- [05:14]
Jewel
A nice nem.
- [05:16]
Bob Pittman
Most important bit of advice you ever heard.
- [05:19]
Jewel
Hardwood grows slowly.
- [05:22]
Bob Pittman
Favorite place to visit.
- [05:24]
Jewel
Venice, Italy.
- [05:25]
Bob Pittman
Secret talent.
- [05:27]
Jewel
I can move my under eyelids.
- [05:30]
Bob Pittman
That's a good one. What did you want to be when you were growing up?
- [05:33]
Jewel
Someone helpful.
- [05:35]
Bob Pittman
Great. Okay, let's jump in. As I was digging through all the research on you, I was searching for what unifies it. All the people I've ever had on this podcast. You definitely have. The most diverse set of life experiences come from Alaska. Settlers at your background, job, performer with your family. You've been homeless. You spent a year in high school in Hawaii with an aunt. You had super success at an early age, yet you gave it up for a few years to take a breather. You were smart enough at a young age to figure out not to take a big money advance from your record company. You've witnessed abuse and betrayal from those you love, yet it has never turned you dark. You've been in alternative music, pop music, country music, all with huge successes. You've won countless awards, performed at all the major sporting events, have sold over 30 million albums. By the way, you even won the mask singer. You're an author. You're an activist. You're an artist. You had a highly acclaimed exhibit at Crystal Bridges built around your view of three planes. So maybe we start with three planes. Is that what unifies your life, and does it help us understand who you are?
- [06:48]
Jewel
I think the thing that unifies all of the really varied experiences I've had in my life is my desire to understand pain and what do we do with it. And it set me off on a really epic life's adventure to see if happiness was a learnable skill and a teachable skill, and to try and make it the number one most important thing in my life. For me, the three planes and my exhibit at Crystal Bridges was about trying to unify my life's work. I'm known as a musician. I'm also known by quite a few as a mental health advocate. And then a lot of people don't realize I'm a visual artist. And so I've done all of these things separately, sort of in silos in my life. And for me, the Crystal Bridges exhibit was a way to unify all of those things together into one experience that brought music, visual art, and behavioral health together. It is based on a philosophy of mine that I believe we each travel through three realms of reality every day, often without realizing it. We have our inner life, which are our thoughts and feelings. We have the seen life, which Is our jobs and finances and families and the physical world. And then we have our unseen life. Whatever helps us feel inspired and in awe. That might be a specific theological perspective for people. For others, it just might be that, you know, and they see James Webb telescope images, they feel inspired. And so I think that mental health is a side effect of learning how to navigate these three spheres with alignment. For instance, if I can introspect and understand what I think and feel, that's really critical. If I can then articulate that to my boss or my partner and they can hear me and we can enact physical changes based on that, that feels really good. Or if I feel like I know why I'm put on the planet and that also is my job, that makes us feel really good. And the adverse is true, you know, if I cannot articulate my feelings or if I won't, you know, tell my friends and family who I authentically am or feel accepted for, makes us deeply unhappy because these conflicts really breed unhappiness in our lives. And so that was the impetus for me to do the Crystal Bridges event also, just because I get restless if I'm not growing and learning and pushing myself and so wanted to expand into visual art and pushing myself in a.
- [09:09]
Bob Pittman
New way, I want to spend a second and get into creativity. You're right. You're known for many things, but probably best known as singer, songwriter. So let's talk a minute about songwriting. Where does the song come from? How do you develop it? And do you have any idea which ones will be popular, or do you care?
- [09:30]
Jewel
I developed my writing practice as a means for, again, going back to pain. You know, I grew up bar singing, and so I had a front row seat too. What I realized was people in a lot of pain. I was in a lot of pain because my mom had left, My dad took over raising us, but had become an alcoholic and abusive. And I realized, you know, by observing people in these bars, that everybody was trying to understand what to do with pain. And some people use drugs, alcohol, sex, violent relationships. And it made me wonder, what am I gonna do? And nobody outruns pain. And the buffalo, I learned, is the only animal that goes into the heart of a storm. Because the quickest way is through. And so I had to ask myself, what is the quickest way through if you can't outrun something painful? And for me, I realized that my journaling, you know, I was writing from a young age, was bringing me into the heart of the pain, and that actually alleviated the pain. And so I did it as a survival mechanism because it helped me relieve that pressure just enough that I could cope. And that led later, you know, when I was 16, to beginning to write songs. But it wasn't of a career. I just started writing songs because I was going to school in Michigan, I was already on my own. I moved out at 15 and I couldn't afford to get home to Alaska for spring break. And so I thought I would hitchhike across the country and I would afford it by street singing. And so that's how I learned my first four chords. It was A minor, C, G and D. I couldn't go out of order because I didn't know how. And I thought I would just improvise lyrics about people as they walked by. And so that's how I came up with the first lyrics to my first song, which was, you know, people living their lives for you on tv, they say they're better than you and you agree. It was really me just observing pop culture and America. Yes, Alaska's part of America, but it's very different. And so by the end of that two week trip, not only did I survive and not get murdered, but I ended up with a song and I was just absolutely smitten. It made me feel powerful. Not because, you know, I thought I was gonna have a career. It just made me feel empowered. It was a real joy. And joy was a scarce commodity in my life and I really enjoyed it. But to answer your question, I don't typically sit down with a purpose or a name or a title, unless I'm in a co writing session, in which case I will come in with, you know, a preconceived concept. But typically I like not having that preconceived notion.
- [12:03]
Bob Pittman
Has the process changed for you over time?
- [12:06]
Jewel
Yeah, becoming a mom significantly impacted my, you know, free time where there wasn't just that luxury of sitting around and an idea coming to you and you work on it till 3am I learned that I had to be a lot more scheduled if I was going to write.
- [12:22]
Bob Pittman
So how does that creative process differ from visual arts and writing that you also do?
- [12:29]
Jewel
The thing that I find similar about all of the different mediums is that it starts with this sort of nebulous feeling. I write from a feeling or an urgent. It's usually nameless and indescribed, but it's intense in my body and then I start to investigate it. And sometimes that feeling wants to come out as a poem and it just never will be a song. It just is A poem. Other times, you know, songs have a very specific structure and pentameter and rhyme scheme. Visual art, I think, is the original language. You know, form and symbolism is what we had before we had the written word. And so it's all storytelling and it's all communicating a story and trying to find the most elegant and refined, simple version of that idea or feeling to communicate that story clearly to people, no matter what medium you're doing.
- [13:25]
Bob Pittman
So let's talk about integrity, honesty and candor. You're known for telling people truths. You tell it in your songs. But personally, you're also known for being a straight ahead, very honest person with people, even when it's hard for them to hear. Where does that clarity of vision and courage to say it come from?
- [13:46]
Jewel
Some of the worst pain I've been in my life has been when I was guarded and not transparent. And I learned that it's a lot less painful to be vulnerable and to be honest because it allows for connection. When I was homeless, I was really suffering from loneliness. And I realized in a way that I deserved it because nobody knew me. I hid because safety was in hiding. You know, you don't move out at 15 and it's not safe. But I realized that the strategy I developed to be safe, which was kind of hiding, not being truthful, was causing me to pay a really huge price. And so I took a big risk while I was homeless and I started singing in a coffee shop. And I decided to tell the truth. And amazingly, people didn't shun me or turn me away. They cried and I cried. And it was like this five hour show for two people in a coffee shop when I was homeless. But it was so rewarding because I actually felt connection. And the truth is, we all have the exact same feelings. We all experience betrayal and hurt and jealousy and, you know, great feelings and less than great feelings and might as well talk about it because it relieves a tremendous burden. And that ended up serving me really well as a famous person. Because you know you're going to be put on a pedestal, which is nobody deserves to be on a pedestal. Nobody's perfect. And I found that by knocking myself off the pedestal gave me a lot of safety and it gave me permission to grow, which is really critical for somebody that's 19 years old to getting in an industry. You can't take a stance as if that stance is never going to change. You have to be able to make room for yourself to think, to adjust. And thanks to the Internet, I was able to do that directly with people and not just to be interpreted through a journalist or something.
- [15:42]
Bob Pittman
We're getting into some interesting topics about your background, so let's go back in time to get your context. You were born in Utah, then went to your family's roots in Alaska, where you grew up. By the way, both sides of your family had roots there. Can you give us a little taste of that family history and a little bit about what Alaska felt like? You said, yeah, Alaska is part of the United States, but it's pretty different. Can you tell us what that was at that moment and how it felt?
- [16:09]
Jewel
My family were pioneers in Alaska. I think the difficult thing about healing and why maybe some of us don't want to look at our childhoods is because we think it has to either be all good or all bad. My family is really brilliant and has so much good, but like any fruit, there's bitter seeds with the sweet. My family that had so much charisma and incredible things also there was a really, you know, abusive aspect in the family. And my dad's childhood was so violent. Then when he went to Vietnam, it was relaxing. It was the first time he relaxed as a 19 year old. And he picked up, of course, some more trauma there and went back to Mary's high school sweetheart. When my mom left, you know, he started to what today we would call trauma triggering. He took us back to the homestead where I was raised. It was an incredible way to be raised. The land in Alaska is just so pristine and divine. I always was aware I was in the presence of something great and bigger than me. And it was very healing, which really helped me through a pretty hard childhood. But that pioneer mentality, being raised around, you know, there were no gender roles how I was raised. Women shooed horses and cut logs and build houses and my dad cooked. And it was just, I was always taught that I was capable and that I was expected to figure it out whether I was capable or not. And that ended up giving me a lot of, you know, confidence in how I approached my life. And it's probably why I had the confidence to move out at 15 of like, I'll figure this out. I'd rather fight for myself and believe in myself than be in a position that I think is hurting me. And so I'd rather try to do better.
- [17:55]
Bob Pittman
Your parents were performers, you mentioned that. And you started performing with them. I think at about age 6, your parents split up and you kept performing with your dad, you mentioned, in sort of front row seat and bars and honky tonks. Can you Paint that picture for us and tell us how that shaped you as a performer and an artist.
- [18:14]
Jewel
Yeah. My parents had a dinner show in the nicest hotel in Anchorage, Alaska when I was young. So I learned to yodel and started performing with them when I was about age 5. And then when my parents got divorced, my dad and I became a duet and we started singing more in like honky tonks and lumberjack joints and fisherman haunts, biker bars. Definitely an education. You know, my dad was really brilliant. We would do five hour sets, never would do a set list. Did a mix of covers and originals. Very good at reading a crowd, very personable. Taught me to be very professional and to work hard. And we practiced and rehearsed long hours. Obviously it was a pretty vulnerable environment to be in. And I learned to trust my instincts because I had to like, I really had to learn how to look out for myself, to never confuse a man's attention for my value. Because I got to see before I was, you know, of age what other women were going through. And in a lot of ways it, it made me a much better person and it really equipped me very well for the music industry because I had a really clear understanding of what I would and wouldn't do and what my actual value was, which I insisted wasn't about my sexuality or sex appeal. I thought I should be taken seriously from my mind and I was willing to walk away from any situation that didn't do that. And paid a big price multiple times, but not the biggest price, which is compromising your own character.
- [19:47]
Bob Pittman
You spent a lot of time living without electricity. I assume you were underexposed to radio, tv, even pre recorded music. What do you think the impact of that was on your brain and who you became? I mean, it's such a hot topic today about what phones and social and Internet are doing to the kids. What's your view on was really a.
- [20:08]
Jewel
Great way to be raised. It forced you to be creative. Every human is creative. You know, play isn't creative. We're inventing play. And there's actually a lot of science about what is called open ended play. And when you have to turn a stick into a plane or a bridge or a train, that creativity creates neural synapses that don't get formed any other way. And so the more we have simple toys that cause us to employ our imagination, we've learned scientifically, you know, that the more open time we have for kids to be bored, it's better for our brain development. And I just happened to have been raised In a way that allowed those things. I think that being creative takes time to be alone with your thoughts, and that's definitely a scarce commodity.
- [20:59]
Bob Pittman
Now, you lived without much, yet you spent the last two years of high school in an elite private arts school in northern Michigan. What did you learn about your craft there? I think this is the first time you had sort of formal training in your craft. And what did you learn about the world? I mean, this had to be a whole new mix for you. Not quite, you know, Harry Potter going off to school, but had to be a pretty dramatic change from what you had been living.
- [21:25]
Jewel
It was definitely culture shock. You know, I had enough money to make it to Detroit, and then I hitchhiked from Detroit up to Traverse City, where my school is, and, you know, I showed up in a biker jacket with a large skinning knife on my belt. And is it frowned on in the fine establishment? I found out I was already paying rent. I was already on my own. I didn't have a lot in common with a lot of the kids, and certainly just the culture shock of the poverty that I came from and the wealth of other people. But realizing that I was a big fish in a small pond, and you come to a place like that, where everybody is talented, it really causes you to level up, which is great. And I loved that. And I had access to some of the best teachers in the world. And so I didn't think I would get a scholarship to come back my senior year. And so I just set about doing everything I could to take advantage of the situation that I was in and take as many classes as I could. It was incredible. I learned so much, part of which was vocal training, which was hard for me because I don't read music. Everybody there was classically trained. I was a bar singer, but it taught me how to use my falsetto. And there's still things I learned to this day that I learned from that teacher. And she also was kind enough to not force me into a mold. She recognized I was different. I was coming from a different place. And she even let me skip a lot of my voice lessons so that I could take sculpture and other classes.
- [22:48]
Bob Pittman
More on math and magic right after this quick break.
- [22:53]
iHeartRadio
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- [23:53]
Child
My dad works in B2B marketing, but I never really knew what that meant. Then one day my dad came by my school for Career Day and told everyone in my class he was a big Roaz man. Then he just kept saying things like the bigger the Roaz, the better. Over and over. My friends still laugh at me to this day. I think it means calculating a return on ad spent. One thing's for sure, I'll be known as the Roaz man's kid for the rest of my days. Why couldn't you just be a fireman or a lawyer? Why? You ruined my life, dad.
- [24:28]
Ryan Seacrest
Not everyone gets B2B, but LinkedIn has the people who do. And with ads on LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people based on job title, industry likelihood to buy, and more. Start converting your B2B audience into high quality leads today. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com customer to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com customer. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to Be, to Be hi, it's Jenny Garth. We all know the importance of taking care of our physical and mental health. But what about our sexual health? I've been there, feeling totally stuck when it comes to my libido. That's why I started taking Addi. And let me tell you, I have seen firsthand what a difference it can make in how you feel. Addi is the only FDA approved pill clinically proven to help certain premenopausal women have more interest in sexual have more satisfying sex and lower the stress from low libido. Addi has helped hundreds of thousands of women get their drive back, including me. Talk to your doctor or visit a d d y I.com to learn more about Addie, the Little Pink Pill. Individual results may vary ADDI or Flibanserin is for premenopausal women with acquired generalized hypoactive sexual desire disorder who have not had problems with low sexual desire in the past who have had low sexual desire. No matter the type of sexual activity, the situation or the sexual part, this low sexual desire is troubling to them and is not due to a medical or mental health problem, problems in the relationship or medicine or other drug use. ADDI is not for use in children, men, or to enhance sexual performance. Your risk of severe low blood pressure and fainting is increased if you drink one to two standard alcoholic drinks. Close in time to your ADI dose. Wait at least two hours after drinking before taking ADDI at bedtime. This risk increases if you take certain prescriptions, OTC or herbal medications, or have liver problems and can happen when you take ADDI without alcohol or other medicines. Do not take if you are allergic to any of addi's ingredients. Allergic reaction may include hives, itching or trouble breathing. Sometimes serious sleepiness can occur. Common side effects include dizz, nausea, tiredness, difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep, and dry mouth. See full PI and medication guide including boxed morning@addi.com PI addy. Visit a d d y I.com to.
- [26:36]
iHeartRadio
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- [27:47]
Bob Pittman
Welcome back to Math and Magic. Let's hear more from my conversation with Jewel. So let's talk about your big break story. Like many of us, you're not a college graduate. You Went on another path. You had a couple of big setbacks and, you know, mentioned if you were in San Diego, fired because you wouldn't pose for a calendar the owner wanted to make. Then you got fired because you refused a proposition from your boss. And the price you paid was actually to be homeless. You lived in your car. Then your car was stolen, and you were crashing on the beach or in a friend's couch. As you mentioned, you sort of went into the coffee houses at that point. I honestly can't imagine that trauma. Yet Somehow, at age 19, you got offers from four major record labels and you signed with one. And it all begins. So tell us the story of how you made that jump to these four companies interested in you and you deciding which one you're gonna do to build your career.
- [28:46]
Jewel
Being homeless is a really scary and vicious poverty cycle that was surprisingly hard to get out of. You know, I thought I'd just get a new job and save up money, and it just wasn't like that. It's a awful, vicious cycle. I was shoplifting a lot of time. I had, you know, panic attacks, agoraphobia. And I realized that I would end up in jail or dead if I didn't do something about it. And I was trying to steal a dress in a dressing room and just realized I was this statistic. And I remembered this. I think it was a stoic quote that said, happiness doesn't depend on who you are, what you have. It depends on what you think. And so I wanted to see if I could double down on that and really change my life one thought at a time. Because it's all I had. If you can create a space so that when you're, you know, today what you would call triggered, instead of having a knee jerk reaction, you can form a more thoughtful response that actually put me in a very powerful position. Because between thinking and action, you can change your life. And I knew it. I knew that's what I stumbled on. And so I really doubled down on that. You know, the first thing I tried to work on was my stealing. Cause that would end me up in jail. And so to stop stealing, I tried to replace it with writing. I was a really prolific thief that caused me to become a very prolific writer. And so I wrote songs about what I was doing, dealing with. Started singing in a coffee shop every Thursday. I went from two people to four to 12 to 16. I wasn't trying to get discovered. I was just trying to figure my life out. I was trying to get rent. But after I don't know, six months or eight months or something like that. Nancy, who ran the coffee shop was like, julie, you're not going to believe it, but Sunny Records is coming tonight. I was like, what? And I knew nothing. You know, I did five hour shows. I wouldn't let people use the restroom until one intermission. In the middle, these poor executives that came were, you know, ridiculed for trying to stand up in the middle of a song. And then more labels came and more labels came. Many, many labels came. And ultimately there was a bidding war and I was offered a million dollar signing bonus. Coming from a ranch, you know, and horse traders, nobody gives you something for free. And so I wanted to know what the catch was. And so I went to the library where there was Don Pass. What's his name?
- [31:03]
Bob Pittman
Passman.
- [31:04]
Jewel
Yeah, thanks. Called everything you need to know about the music business. And so it just taught me how contracts work, how advances work, that the million dollars was indeed in advance. And I calculated how many albums I'd need to sell to pay back that advance. And not to mention the fact that I'd also have more in crude debt because I would be, you know, having promotional expenses. And I realized that that would basically put a big bounty on my head. And I didn't want a million dollars. I wanted a career. I wanted a way to figure out how to do something that I loved for the rest of my life. And I was being given a really unusual opportunity to have a shot at it. But I didn't think taking the advance would actually put me in the best position for what my real goal was. I was also really scared because you don't take kids like me with my emotional background and make them famous and think that's going to work out well. Every movie about people like me ends with death and addiction. And I knew I was a very prime candidate for that and that what I was being offered was actually something very dangerous, dressed in the clothing of something very alluring. And so I had to have a real plan. And so I decided to make a promise to myself that my number one job was to learn about happiness. And that meant I had to have auditable metrics around it that I would check in with myself. And then my number two job was to be a musician. And that under that, I wanted to be an artist more than I wanted to be famous. And armed with that, I had a hierarchical way to make decisions. And so that's why I turned down the advance. I did negotiate the biggest backend I think anybody had ever been awarded up to that point, I structured the deal with the help of my lawyer to actually have, you know, triggers for every. I think it was 500,000 or million albums sold. I would actually gain a point on the back end, and I just de. Risked everything on the front end. So I was not a risk to a label because I knew I wanted to make a folk album at the height of grunge, and I knew that the odds of us succeeding were really slim. And so that's how I negotiated the deal. And it looked like it was probably a mistake for quite a long time. You know, I made a folk album with Neil Young's producer at his ranch, and it failed spectacularly for several years to the point where I started to go in and make a second album and give up on the first. But luckily, Bob Dylan wanted to tour with me and he mentored me on tour and just told me to keep going and gave me the courage to keep going. And eventually that album went on to be the best selling album of all time.
- [33:47]
Bob Pittman
Pretty amazing. Fantastic story. Now I want to follow up that story, though. You had this incredible success, and then you decide you were going to take a couple of years off. Where did that come from?
- [33:59]
Jewel
For me, that was making good on my promise to myself to put my happiness first, to break my career. I was doing about a thousand shows at least a year. I was doing five and six shows a day, sometimes two cities a day. And then once I got successful, it's about the same thing with a lot more pressure, you know, by the time Hands came out, which was about that time when I was homeless, I was on the COVID of Time magazine and I was one of the most famous people in the world, and I couldn't. I was having death threats all the time, you know, firebombs left outside my house, stalkers saying they would shoot me in the head during shows. Couldn't walk across the street or go use a restroom without people following me. It was deeply triggering, you know, to somebody with me again with my background, where I find strangers really triggering and could even, like, get me into a panic attack. I was not equipped for the level of attention that I got. And so I had to give myself permission to stop or have a psychotic break. Like, I was on the edge of a breakdown. And I was like, I'm not gonna do that to myself. I don't need to be famous that bad. And so I let myself quit for as long as it took for me to understand what was happening to me, what worked for me and what didn't. At the end of the two years, I realized I really did love music. I didn't want to change careers. And in that two years I also got a lot less famous, like to the point where I could go grocery shopping. And so I realized I liked music. And then I realized like I could just rate my career. Like I could rate it by taking huge breaks between albums, which is counter, you know, intuitive to what any musician should do if they want to make money and keep their momentum going. But it was really good for me because it really helped my mental health. And to be, I think, a great artist, you have to have great periods of stillness where you replenish and you learn and you grow so that you can have this output. And I think that how we manage careers and indeed just a lot of businesses, we're expecting a constant linear curve up and that's anti nature. Nature has winter and artists need winter. They need a fallow season to prepare the fields for another tremendous season of growth. And fruit, we don't just get fruit all the time without paying a massive price. And so I just realize that for myself, putting myself in alignment to nature and natural rhythms, honoring my own natural rhythms, taking breaks between albums, you know, that definitely meant I'd have to work harder. You know, switching genres is a lot of work. And then taking breaks and having to build up your momentum again is a lot of work, but it's just work. I don't mind work, you know, and so that's how I set about my career.
- [36:51]
Bob Pittman
You know, it is one of the most special things about you and it's coming out in all this conversation is this sense of yourself, but also a sense of others and incredible empathy and how you've managed to channel your skills to. To help others. You did the project Clean water back in 1997, Higher Ground for Humanity. In 1998, 2001, you helped co found the Inspiring Children foundation here at iHeart. We've done the not alone challenge with you. You sort of go on and on. And by the way, that's just a smattering of what you've done. Why, what motivates you and what are you trying to contribute here?
- [37:31]
Jewel
I think anybody that's known great suffering knows just how much help matters. I think it's actually the saddest thing about wealth is that it gives people a false sense of self sufficiency. We're interconnected and we need each other. And the people who are most vulnerable amongst us really know that. And feeling that safety net, you know, of another woman saying, I I got you. I'll help you with the rent this month, or I'll help you with your child or that safety net. We really, really rely on it. And so I just, you know, I haven't been able to go through my life and on the suffering I have without also, you know, feeling like if there's something I can do about it, like, why wouldn't I? And it's fun. Like, being a rock star is very, very fun, but helping people enjoy living is way more fun. So I don't know why, why people don't help or wouldn't help. It's a big priority for me in my life. An act of power is something that benefits you and your community. Otherwise, it isn't power, it's false power. And I think that's what we're really seeing in our world.
- [38:42]
Bob Pittman
Well, we are lucky to have you and have you committed to this. I know the pain's awful, but it really is being put to a very good purpose for society. We usually end each episode of Math and Magic by giving some shout outs. Who's your most important magician? And who's the most important mathematician in your mind?
- [39:03]
Jewel
My favorite mathematician and magician are the same person, and it's Steve Wozniak. He's brilliant and so funny and such a prankster. And my son literally just knows him as the magician.
- [39:14]
Bob Pittman
Oh, I love that. And I want to end this episode with you giving a shout out to the greatest influence on your career, dead or alive.
- [39:23]
Jewel
I think the thing that always inspired me as an artist were the writers that gave a voice to the disenfranchised Chekhov, Pablo Neruda, Steinbeck, you know, Marvin Gaye's what's Going On, Bob Dylan, Joni Mitchell, Nina Simone. I think that's always really inspired me and touched me and people that had the courage to say who they were. It's why I love Denias Nim. It's not because I wanted to be her. You know, I loved Bukowski. It's not that I wanted to be Bukowski. It's that it was a revolution to hear somebody just sell the truth about who they were, warts and all. And that inspired me to be the type of person that I am and to have the courage to do that.
- [40:06]
Bob Pittman
Joel, you are a really unusual person who has had remarkable success, but probably most important, you've had an amazingly positive impact on others lives. Thanks for sharing your stories today and congrats on your enduring success and impact. Here are a few things I picked up from my conversation with Jewel. A difficult season makes for periods of great growth. Joel has prioritized mental health, happiness, and intervals to rest and recharge. In a society that values constant output, this can seem like weakness, but Joel is living proof that it can lead to incredible creativity, renewed passion, and an eagerness to work hard. 2. Longevity is more valuable than immediate reward A $1 million signing bonus was dangled in front of Jewel. It had to hurt to turn it down, but she wanted to de risk her record deal and give herself and her music time to grow. An upfront payment isn't the only way to negotiate your value. Doing your research, figuring out if there's a catch, and setting goals for yourself are great ways to assess how something will serve you in the long term. 3. Giving back can be more powerful than being a rock star. When you believe that all people are inner connected and that power comes from helping your community, then there's no greater pleasure than trying to make the world a better place. I'm Bob Pittman. Thanks for listening.
- [41:34]
iHeartRadio
That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeart podcasts. The show is created and hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sydney Rosenbloom for booking.
- [41:45]
Bob Pittman
And wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feat.
- [41:49]
iHeartRadio
The Math and Magic team as Jessica.
- [41:51]
Bob Pittman
Krein, Chich and Baheed Fraser.
- [41:53]
iHeartRadio
Our executive producers are Ally Perry and Nikki Etor. Until next time.
- [42:01]
Ryan Seacrest
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