656 Novelist Chigozie Obioma on Literature, Life, and His Love for Kazuo Ishiguro's Remains of the Day [HOL Encore]

Summary

Podcast Summary: Episode 656 - Novelist Chigozie Obioma on Literature, Life, and His Love for Kazuo Ishiguro's Remains of the Day

Podcast Information:

• Title: The History of Literature
• Host: Jacke Wilson
• Episode: 656 - Featuring Chigozie Obioma
• Release Date: November 29, 2024
• Description: Amateur enthusiast Jacke Wilson explores the history of literature with various guests. In this episode, he welcomes back novelist Chigozie Obioma to discuss his literary journey, his admiration for Kazuo Ishiguro's Remains of the Day, and his latest projects.

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Introduction and Episode Structure (00:01 – 01:01)

The episode begins with brief mentions of podcast affiliations and advertisements, which are seamlessly skipped to dive into the main content. Host Jacke Wilson introduces the episode as an encore performance with returning guest Chigozie Obioma, focusing on Obioma’s latest novel, The Road to the Country, and revisiting their previous conversation from February 2021.

Interview with Chigozie Obioma (01:01 – 65:18)

Chigozie Obioma’s Background and Literary Journey (12:18 – 15:34)

Chigozie Obioma, hailed as the "heir to Chinua Achebe" by the New York Times, shares insights into his upbringing in Akure, Nigeria, and his journey into literature. He discusses his large, eccentric family and the societal pressures of Nigeria in the 1980s and 90s to limit family size under military directives. Obioma reflects on his position as the fifth child and how his family's dynamics influenced his first novel, The Fishermen.

"So I'm the fifth. So I'm the fifth. So ... I think it was more so some kind of need to escape as well."
— Chigozie Obioma [15:27]

Discovery of Storytelling and Inspirations (16:20 – 21:59)

Obioma recounts a pivotal moment during his childhood when, while hospitalized, his father narrated a story from Amos Tutuola's The Palm-Wine Drinkard. This experience ignited his passion for storytelling and inspired him to pursue writing despite his parents' initial skepticism. His father’s encouragement during the Booker Prize nomination solidified his path as a novelist.

"That was the first time I became interested in stories. And ... I wanted to join this flowing ocean of narratives."
— Chigozie Obioma [17:38]

Analysis of Remains of the Day by Kazuo Ishiguro (24:01 – 35:49)

Obioma delves deep into Ishiguro's Remains of the Day, describing it as a "quiet" yet profoundly layered novel. He praises Ishiguro's ability to peel back layers of the protagonist Mr. Stevens's character, highlighting the use of irony and the exploration of denial and self-deception.

"The blinker view that it seems to have, you cannot. So there's a gray area."
— Chigozie Obioma [28:02]

Obioma emphasizes how the novel transcends its specific setting—1950s England—to offer universal insights into human nature and personal limitations.

"We have this sense of being wholly, endlessly and insanely immersed in these ... shadows."
— Chigozie Obioma [38:56]

Writing Philosophy and Teaching (35:49 – 45:19)

Discussing his approach to writing, Obioma highlights the importance of character-driven narratives over plot-driven stories. He compares his method to that of other renowned authors like Jhumpa Lahiri, emphasizing immersion into the character's inner life to organically develop the plot.

"The best fiction occur when plot in its own self is meaningless if it is not a function of character."
— Chigozie Obioma [35:49]

He also shares his teaching philosophy, encouraging young writers to focus on creating profound, character-centric stories rather than seeking explosive, high-stakes plots.

"You just need to give the character something as simple, even archetypal, but let them really want it."
— Chigozie Obioma [43:55]

Chronicling Culture and History (45:19 – 56:02)

Obioma discusses his role as a chronicler of Nigerian and West African culture through his novels. He contrasts his work with Ishiguro's, noting how both authors use their narratives to explore and preserve their respective cultures amidst external influences.

"I'm trying to monumentalize a piece of Igbo civilization, West African civilization..."
— Chigozie Obioma [46:14]

Alexander Project and Digital Storytelling (57:01 – 60:09)

Highlighting his involvement with the Alexander digital storytelling platform, Obioma explains how his nonfiction narrative When the Risen Dust Settles was adapted into a multimedia experience. He praises the collaborative process with actors and producers, noting how the adaptation enhanced the emotional depth of his story.

"I cried at the end, ... it made the story come so much alive."
— Chigozie Obioma [58:23]

Hypothetical Writing Challenge and Future Projects (60:09 – 64:34)

In a creative twist, Jack Wilson poses a hypothetical scenario where an eccentric billionaire wants Obioma to co-write a character akin to Ishiguro's butler from Remains of the Day. Obioma entertains the idea, expressing interest in exploring historical African settings, such as 11th-12th century Africa, drawing parallels to the rich storytelling traditions of his culture.

"I would like to set a story in that time and place."
— Chigozie Obioma [61:49]

Notable Quotes:

• Chigozie Obioma [15:27]: "I think it was more so some kind of need to escape as well."
• Chigozie Obioma [17:38]: "That was the first time I became interested in stories. And ... I wanted to join this flowing ocean of narratives."
• Chigozie Obioma [28:02]: "The blinker view that it seems to have, you cannot. So there's a gray area."
• Chigozie Obioma [35:49]: "The best fiction occur when plot in its own self is meaningless if it is not a function of character."
• Chigozie Obioma [43:55]: "You just need to give the character something as simple, even archetypal, but let them really want it."
• Chigozie Obioma [46:14]: "I'm trying to monumentalize a piece of Igbo civilization, West African civilization..."
• Chigozie Obioma [58:23]: "I cried at the end, ... it made the story come so much alive."
• Chigozie Obioma [61:49]: "I would like to set a story in that time and place."

Conclusion and Closing Remarks (64:34 – 65:18)

Jacke Wilson wraps up the episode by thanking Chigozie Obioma for his insightful contributions and congratulating him on his successes. He hints at upcoming content related to James Joyce's Dubliners and the film adaptation of The Dead, promising a jam-packed December with literary discussions.

"Thank you so much, Jackie. Such a wonderful time I've had."
— Chigozie Obioma [64:23]

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Key Takeaways:

• Influence of Personal History: Obioma’s upbringing and familial relationships deeply influence his storytelling and thematic choices.
• Admiration for Remains of the Day: The novel serves as a significant inspiration, showcasing the power of subtlety and character depth in literature.
• Character-Driven Narratives: Emphasizes the importance of developing rich, multifaceted characters to organically create compelling plots.
• Cultural Preservation: Obioma uses his fiction to chroniculate and preserve West African culture and history amidst global influences.
• Innovative Storytelling Platforms: His involvement with the Alexander project highlights the evolving landscape of digital and multimedia storytelling.

This episode offers a profound exploration of Chigozie Obioma's literary philosophy, his inspirations drawn from both his Nigerian heritage and international literature, and his innovative approaches to storytelling in the digital age.

Transcript

[Jack Wilson]

The History of Literature Podcast is a member of the Podglomerate Network and LitHub Radio.

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[Jack Wilson]

Hello. An encore performance from one of our favorite guests, Chigozi Obioma, today on the History of Literature. Hello everyone. How are you? I'm Jack Wilson, the host of the podcast. I hope you're all surviving and if possible, thriving. Things are falling apart here in Crazy Town, but we do our best. How about some holiday music, Gabriel? There we go. Now, as you may have gleaned, or as I may have mentioned before, I'm trying a new pattern here to these episodes. Some people like the interviews, and I like them too. I don't have all the answers. I'm not an expert in everything, so I like talking to people who know their stuff and I just enjoy having some company once in a while. It gets lonely here in the Jack Wilson Studios, so we do a lot of interviews. Six, seven, eight a month sometimes, and I was advised to resurface some content from the archives. I don't want to overload you with that. It feels a little bit like cheating. But it's true that we do have a lot of material out there and some of you are new listeners and might want to hear what we were up to back in the old days. It makes sense to me, especially when I curated for you a bit. For example, in today's episode, I'm going to take out the listener emails I read and my general preamble, and we'll just go straight to Kazuo Ishiguro and Chigozy Obioma. He has a wonderful story, a great story of a novelist's somewhat unlikely success, and he tells a story of his childhood, the moment he fell in love with storytelling. His work as a novelist and his love for the book remains of the day. Chigozy was a wonderful guest, so I can bring you that interview without my little commentary at the beginning. Although I did sort of enjoy listening back to my past self. I was so excited about crossing the threshold of 2 million downloads. I shared that with you all. I found it a little cute. Now that we're beyond 10 million and still going strong. Okay, where was I? Oh yes, the pattern. So I don't want to overload you with resurfaced content. We'll do one episode a month. Although I think for the holidays we're going to dive back into our episodes on the Dead, which was a multi parter. Maybe I'll take a little break and we'll find some other goodies for you as well. But mostly for most months. Maybe August we'll do a couple more repeats so I can take a vacation. But mostly the goal is one resurfaced episode per month. And then we also get calls or email emails for more short stories. I hear you. I love doing that too. So we'll sprinkle some of those in and we get a lot of emails asking for the old days, the solo episodes where it's just me talking about a book or an author or a topic. I hear you on that too. We'll try to do at least one of those a month, more if we can, but at least one a month. And all this we're doing while the world comes crashing down. I do have a life outside the podcast people and it is kind of crashing down. I'll try to keep that out of the show if I can, but I'm telling you, it's not always easy. But I can do it.

[Chigozi Obioma]

Today.

[Jack Wilson]

Let's go to Chigozy obioma, who celebrated 2024 with the release of a new book. We are celebrating his novel the Road to the country, which came out earlier this year and received has received much admiration and enthusiasm by from critics and readers. We're going to celebrate that by repeating this conversation with him that we had in February of 2021.

[Emma Thompson]

If you like, Mr. Stevens, I could bring in some more cuttings for you.

[Anthony Hopkins]

Thank you, Ms. Kenton, but I regard this room as my private place of work and I prefer to keep distractions to a minimum.

[Emma Thompson]

Would you call flowers a distraction then, Mr. Stevens?

[Anthony Hopkins]

I appreciate your kindness, Ms. Kenton, but I prefer to keep things as they are. Oh, and since you are here, there is a matter I wanted to mention to you just a small Matter? I happened to be walking past the kitchen yesterday morning and I heard you calling to someone named William. May I ask who it was you were addressing by that name?

[Emma Thompson]

Why, Mr. Stevens, I should think I was addressing your father. Oh, There are no other Williams in this house. I take it true.

[Anthony Hopkins]

May I ask you in future, Ms. Kenton, to address my father as Mr. Stevens. And if you are speaking of him to a third party, you may wish to call him Mr. Stevens Senior to distinguish him from myself. So I would be most grateful to you, Ms. Kenton.

[Emma Thompson]

I don't quite understand what you're getting at. Mr. Stevens, I am the housekeeper in this house and your father is the under butler in other houses. I was accustomed to address the underservants by their Christian names.

[Anthony Hopkins]

Miss Kenton, if you would stop to think for a moment, you would realize that how inappropriate it is for one such as yourself to address as William someone such as my father.

[Emma Thompson]

Well, I'm sure, Mr. Stevens, it must have been very galling for your father to be called William by one such as myself.

[Anthony Hopkins]

Miss Kenton, all I'm saying is that my father is a person from whom, if you wish to be more observant, you may learn many things.

[Emma Thompson]

I'm most grateful for your advice, Mr. Stevens. But do please tell me, just what marvelous things might I learn from your father?

[Anthony Hopkins]

I might point out that you're still often unsure of what goes where and which item is which.

[Emma Thompson]

I'm sure Mr. Stevens Senior is very good at his job, but I can assure you, Mr. Stevens, that I am very good at mine.

[Chigozi Obioma]

Of course.

[Jack Wilson]

Thank you.

[Emma Thompson]

And now, if you will please excuse me, Ms. Kinton.

[Anthony Hopkins]

Oh, well.

[Jack Wilson]

That'S Emma Thompson and Anthony Hopkins in the marvelous 1993 film the Remains of the Day. An excellent adaptation of a most excellent novel by Kazuo Ishiguro. Our guest today, the Nigerian born novelist Chigozy Obioma, might seem like an unlikely choice to give us an entree into the Remains of the Day. His own fiction has been described as murderous and mysterious, striking and lyrical, awesome in the true sense of the word, crackling with life, freighted with death, and vertiginous in its style and the elemental power of its story. End quote.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Important, urgent, says one critic.

[Jack Wilson]

A madman's apocalyptic vision, says another. But in addition to more obvious comparisons like Chinua Achebe, the New York Times.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Calls Obioma the heir to Achebe, or.

[Jack Wilson]

A thematic cousin like Cormac McCarthy. Chigozi has chosen for us a quiet novel to discuss today. The introspective, stirring and surprisingly dramatic work by Kazuo Ishiguro. As far as I know, Chigozy's works, the fishermen and an orchestra of minorities have not been compared with the remains of the Day. And yet that only gives us something very fascinating to explore. What is it about that book about an English butler in the 1950s that kept chi cozy up all night reading? What did he take away from the book and how did it help him understand the power of fiction and what fiction can do? Chigozy Obioma is here today to talk about all that, plus his childhood in Nigeria, how he got started as a storyteller, and his new nonfiction work for Alexander, a digital storytelling platform that unites some of the world's greatest authors, filmmakers and actors to produce a multimedia listening and viewing experience. All that plus we have plus plus plus a listener email or a couple of them today on the history of literature. Okay, this is Jack in 2024. Here's where I'm going to pause things and we'll skip forward to the interview. We'll hear from Chikozy Obioma about the Remains of the Day and much else after this.

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[Chigozi Obioma]

The Energizer Bunny's got so much power.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Wait, he's powered up all the toys?

[Chigozi Obioma]

I think that means we're done for the year.

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[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Okay. Joining me now is Chikozee Obioma, who's been called the heir to Shinhua Achebe by the New York Times. His novels the Fishermen and An Orchestra of Minorities were both shortlisted for the Booker Prize and his works have been translated into 30 languages. In 2015, he was named one of.

[Jack Wilson]

100 Global Thinkers by Foreign Policy Magazine.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

He joins us today to talk about his work, his participation in a new digital storytelling platform called Alexander and his love for the book Remains of the Day by Kazuo Ishiguro. Chikozy Obioma, welcome to the history of literature.

[Chigozi Obioma]

Thank you very much for having me. It's such a pleasure.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Oh, good. So I know you attended Michigan for graduate school and you now teach at the University of Nebraska. But let's start with your childhood. Where did you grow up?

[Chigozi Obioma]

So I grew up in Akure in the west of Nigeria. So it's a city that if you were to drive now and suppose the roads are good, it should take about four hours from Lagos, which is a city that everyone seems to know about. Yes.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah, right. And what kind of childhood did you have?

[Chigozi Obioma]

So I grew up in a very interesting family structure. So I had my family as kind of a loose model for the family in my first novel, the Fishermen. So we will eventually become 12 kids, you know, but as when I was growing up, there were always, you know, a crowd of kids around. And, you know, I know people often think that Africans have so many kids. I mean, that might be true, but it wasn't at all the reality when I was growing up. So we were very, very eccentric and, you know, we were Often mocked in at schools, at functions. And you know, the neighborhood kids, you know, had like a nickname for us, you know, Obioma, which means like, you know, those who produce children. Like. Like chicken.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Right. And so why were they mocking you? Just because there just seemed to be so many of you.

[Chigozi Obioma]

Right, yeah. And, you know, it was. It was kind of unusual. So starting from Sometime in the mid-80s, there was a movement in Nigeria to curtail, you know, the. Over the population. And so. So there was like a strict. The military dictators, because we have like a number of them back in the 80s and 90s. So they had this strict, you know, like, advisory that people must have like limited number of kids. So in a way, my dad was like a kind of a renegade, you know, because he was going against the norm.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah. And what did your dad do?

[Chigozi Obioma]

So he was a banker, he was an accountant. Yeah. So he was relatively well to do.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah. Where did you fit in in the birth order?

[Chigozi Obioma]

So I'm the fifth.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

The fifth. So right in the middle?

[Chigozi Obioma]

Yeah, yeah. Right. Kind of right in the middle.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Right, Almost, yeah.

[Chigozi Obioma]

He had three older brothers and one older sister.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Uh huh. And I can imagine that you were all kind of scrambling to find an identity as a kid. Were you the bookish one? Was that your thing that you were the one who went to the library or were you doing other things at that time?

[Chigozi Obioma]

So it was something like that. So obviously, you know, as you say, there was always a scramble to get the attention of our parents and to stick out. Yeah, I mean, all of us were doing very well in school, but for some reason I became the one who became very interested in stories and the imaginary world. I think it was more so some kind of need to escape as well. So it could have been all of that? Yes.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

And did you know any writers or have any teachers who were encouraging you to write? Or were you mainly just finding stories in books or through oral storytellers or on television or anything like that?

[Chigozi Obioma]

So my becoming a writer was actually interesting. It was. It was a kind of a detour from what I actually wanted to do. So I wanted to be like Maradona. That was a dream. 1994, 86. There was that World cup and whatnot. So it was, you know, during one of these times when I was playing soccer, you know, and I was getting sick a lot because I would go to like, swampy areas and play into the night where, you know, mosquitoes will bite you and sometimes you even get like, you know, fleas and whatnot. So during one of Those times when I was. I ended up at the hospital, my dad started telling me a story. He was, you know, bored having to stay the night with me and just remembered being so riveted and transfixed into what, you know, this imaginary world. And, I mean, I had started to read. I knew the stories of animals and whatnot, but these were stories about human beings.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Chigozi Obioma]

You know, and so I. That was the first time I became interested in stories. And, you know, two years later, also, I had stopped playing trounce and all that trancy. And I was. You know, I went to him, I was like, would you please read me a story? And he just brought out a book and said, why don't you just get it yourself? And sitting down and reading that book, I saw that, you know, many of those stories he told me had emerged from that book. So I knew from that time that that was what I wanted to do. So it was like a discovery, you know, and from then, I wouldn't let go of books.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah. So the story that he told you when you were in the hospital, was it. It was fiction, and was it about characters and. Or animals or what was the story he was telling you?

[Chigozi Obioma]

So it was actually from Amos Ditola's the Palm Wine Drinkard, which you might know about the book because Dylan Thomas at the time reviewed it in the observer and was too shocked, you know, so it's about this. This kind of psychedelic quest into the unknown. So it's kind of a magical, realist story, but it's about human beings, extraordinary things. And I thought that it was miraculous that someone could imagine this thing. And I wanted my mind to work in that same way. So you could say that what spurred me into writing was this wanton sense of awakening, but also this desire to replicate these things that these writers were doing and also to join this flowing ocean of narratives that I feel was like, flowing through the minds of writers through time and globally. So I wanted to. I wanted some kind of affinity with these writers as well.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah. And so when you went to college, was this firm in your mind that this is something you wanted to do, or were you still trying to figure out whether you could do this professionally?

[Chigozi Obioma]

Well, there were always doubts for a long time. I always thought that my parents were just being mean because they were mostly against it. My mother, especially, was more of, like, a pragmatic person. So they wanted something that was more vocational. So they would always say, okay, well, how many people do you think will make money out of writing in Nigeria? I mean, how many People read even, and they will be like, okay, don't waste this. Your, you know, brilliant mind. Why don't you, like, study law or economics or medicine and just write by the side? What have you got to lose? So. But, you know, now, for a long time, I was thinking that that was just like, them trying to prevent me from what I love. But I think they were trying to be kind and they were really looking up on me. So. But in 2015, when I was, you know, in the running for the Booker Prize, and my dad came, you know, to London to attend the ceremony, and he saw this crowd of people who came to hear us read at the, you know, that center, wherever we did that thing, you know, that was when he knew that, man, this guy could actually make something out of this thing. Yeah. So even with the fact that I had published a book, you know, that was internationally recognized, I became a professor out of writing. They still had anxieties around it. Yeah. Until that very.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Until then. And did you ever tell him that you trace it all back to that night when he told you those stories in the hospital?

[Chigozi Obioma]

Yeah, he knows about it, but my dad doesn't like to take any glory. He would just be like, well, this is your destiny. This is what you were always meant to do. So. But. But I do believe that that. That that day definitely was an epiphanic moment for me.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah. And was it just the two of you there?

[Chigozi Obioma]

It was just the two of us, yes.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah. So I wonder if that's part of it, if you were, you know, it was a moment where you just had some undivided attention from someone who was very important to you, and it just. The whole thing combined to just resonate in this almost magical moment.

[Chigozi Obioma]

Yeah, no, he did. And in fact, that's what is interesting about memory. Right. I remember very vividly that evening, you know, because the light of the day was dying. You know, we're going to talk about the remains of the day. So not much was remaining of that day. You know, I just remember sitting in the. In the, you know, porch outside the house, and I just started reading the book. And I was surprised to find these characters in the book. So I think for some reason, I did not expect that. You know, this was. These stories were around. I thought my dad was, like, one of the geniuses of the world because he could come up with these stories. You know, I didn't know that he was actually reading them so that he could tell them to me.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Chigozi Obioma]

So from that moment, I wanted, you know, to join These. This committee of writers that I couldn't see, I did not have any contact with, you know, this. To merge into that ancestral cloth of creativity, whatever that is.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Chigozi Obioma]

You know, wherever it is.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Right. Well, as a. I just love hearing the story. And as a parent myself, it seems like a good reminder that ordinarily I would think that the day that my child was. Had to be in the hospital would be only a terrible memory and the worst day of his life and so on. But good things can come even out of some of the darkest moments. Okay, so let's talk about the remains of the day. Where were you in life when you discovered this book?

[Chigozi Obioma]

Good question. I think I may have picked it up from the library or something. Yeah, that was the. I picked it up from the library. I was in Cyprus and I had finished the first draft of the Fisherman. So after every project is finished, I have a moment, a period of anxiety. I don't know what to call it. I just, you know, it's as if something has been a kind of a virtue, you know, has been taken away from me and I want to regain some kind of energy. So I go on a reading spree, really. Which is one of the reasons why I took on this, you know, Georgian thing, because I finished my novel last in November. So now I'm, you know, doing that. So. So I picked it. I picked the book up from the library and started reading it. And at first I was like, man, how did this book win the Booker Prize? And, you know, there was nothing remarkable about the opening, you know, but I decided that, okay, I couldn't go back and get another book. So I continue to read and, you know, by the next morning, I had finished the book.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah, right. Let me just fill in, listeners. You mentioned something that we talked about before we started recording here that you're currently serving as a judge for the Booker Prize.

[Chigozi Obioma]

That's right, yes.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

And so you're kind of refilling the tank the way that you do after you finish a novel by immersing yourself.

[Chigozi Obioma]

In literature, except that this tank is all consuming. It's like bottomless heat of books.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

It's overflowing. Okay, so something kept you at this book. You read it all night until you finished. Were you. What appealed to you about it?

[Chigozi Obioma]

So I think that novel is. Is a book that can best be described as quiet. It's a weird adjective to use for a novel, but I think quiet is. I just can't think of any other adjective to describe it. And the reason for that is because there is a lot of deceptive simplicity. So you have what seems like a mundane situation, you know, but. But slowly you are. You know, you keep on peeling these layers and layers of memory alongside the novel, the main character, Mr. Stevens. So there is a sense that we will get to know this man in at least have a good sense of who he is, if not in totality, by, say, the fifth chapter. But, no, you. You keep wanting, you know, it's an ocean of human understanding. And I think that that's what makes the novel, you know, one of the, I think, greatest works of fiction of at least the 20th century.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah, and there's. There's sort of this. This trick that's happening that the author is pulling on us, which is we're. At the same time, we're becoming more and more appreciative that the main character is partially blinded, that there are things he's not seeing and there's things he's. Like his whole worldview is about his focus on seeing things in a particular way. But yet, as we start to see the overlaps with history, the reader is. Is seeing. Is making connections that he's not. And we're sort of waiting for him to come to some of the realizations that we maybe get to before he does.

[Chigozi Obioma]

Yeah, that is exactly true. And, you know, it's. It's. It's. It's kind of interesting in the sense that the blinker view that it seems to have, you cannot. So there's a gray area. This is one of the brilliant devices, I think, that Kishiguro makes use of. You know, that is, you don't find in contemporary fiction a lot the use of irony, whether it's this dramatic kind or even the straight kind. So the whole life of Mr. Stevens is kind of ironical. You know, he's saying, you know, he isn't. For instance, there's a point in which he criticizes Ms. Kitten, the woman whom he, in fact, falls in love with, you know, but never actually admits that he's in love with. So he criticizes her for being, you know, like, kind of cheesy. Somebody who, you know, does. In fact, I think a better example is for reading these cheap books, these romance books. But he, in some ways craves and envies that she's doing that. He wants the ability to be able to do that, but he cannot bring himself to do that. So he can. But he cannot see the irony of that. He cannot see the contradictions, the subtle contradictions in almost everything that he does. And I think that's what makes the novel not just a brilliant examination, a kind of an X ray of a human being, but a tragic one as well.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah. And I found that even though it's in such a particular world, and in some ways you feel like it's taking this huge, deep dive into the mind of a very particular character at a very particular time and place, it felt like it was completely universal in the sense that I feel like I've led a blinkered life in a lot of ways, too. Or I could identify with times where I've been deceiving myself to a certain extent. And it wasn't just like a documentary of a Butler in 1950s England, but it really felt like a study of a human being.

[Chigozi Obioma]

Yeah, that's exactly true. And think about. There are a few things that happen in the novel that I cannot forget. So when I teach fiction, I ask my students on the first day of class, I say, I ask them, okay, you guys have come in here. Why? Because you want to learn how to write. I don't suppose ordinary fiction or average fiction or even good fiction. Perhaps you want to learn what great fiction is. So what is a great novel? And, you know, they give me a variety of answers, but, you know, over the years, I've discovered. I've come to like a kind of a definition that emerges not from me, but from my students. So a great novel can. A novel generally, let me say, can make you think about something. It can entertain you. Sorry. And it perhaps can make you feel something. Okay. A good book does at least two of those, but a great novel does all three. So it entertains you. It makes you think about or learn something that you didn't know about anything. And it makes you feel something. So that novel does all three. And I think what stands out the most to me is the way in which history works. So the history springs its own shadows. So this man, Mr. Stevens, does not want, he does not like what has emerged of his, you know, cherished lord, whom he served for a long time. Because, you know, his lord, his master was a kind of a Nazi sympathizer, in fact, did donate to the Nazi cause. So he wants to turn his back on history, but then he realizes eventually that history does not. Even when it turns his back, it's present with you. You see it all the time. So his blinkard view becomes, in some ways, a transgression, which I think he realizes towards the end of the novel that, look, I am in denial. And even though he doesn't state this, but you see it through the avata that Ishiguro creates in his father. So, for instance, the novel does take place within, I think, a day or a few days, but you can't. So you don't know how Mr. Stevens will end up, what will happen to him after this journey through, you know, this spaces in England. But you have his father, who lived a similar life, and you saw the tragic unraveling of his father being, you know, continuing this life of strict servitude and extraordinary, extra conservative, you know, sense of duty, and it kills him at the end of the day. Yeah, so.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

So.

[Chigozi Obioma]

So you don't need the novel to continue beyond the, you know, the few pages that it is. You can almost predict what. That this man would go on being like this. And that is what I think breaks the reader at the end of the novel.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah, right. When you were first reading it, that night that you spent with it, were you reading it just swept away? And as a reader immersed in the story, or did you also have your writerly hat on thinking, wow, this is a technique. I could learn from this. I can learn from that. If only I could do this. If only I could do that, that kind of thing.

[Chigozi Obioma]

Well, I think that it's sad, but I've not. I've been unable for a long time to read as just a normal reader who reads for pleasure, really. I would love to. To read that way. It's like, you know, Brad Pitt or Taylor Swift being sad that now they can no longer live a normal life. They can't go to Walgreens or CVS or Lidl, you know, just to shop. So I just have to be analytical when I read. I read as a writer even when I don't want to. You know, I'm scolding the inner writer within me for not having acquired this kind of skill that this guy has. So that was how I read it. I read it, you know, in reverence. I read it as a critique as well. I read it, you know, also as one who is trying to understand what techniques were at play here.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

How do you think he achieves that effect of it being quiet? Do you think that comes from the. The prose or the pace or the setting or the. The. The inner life of the character or what?

[Jack Wilson]

How does he get that?

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Because he does get that. That tone of the book is so distinctive. And I've read some other short stories of his that are like that as well. And I'm wondering if you've ever been able to pinpoint how he gets to that effect.

[Chigozi Obioma]

That's a good question. I think I might have an idea, but obviously I'm not. You know, this is my opinion, right? But I realized some time ago that the best fiction occur when plot in its own self is meaningless if it is not a function of character. So by which I mean that you want to tell a story. Let's say you want to tell a story about evil, okay? So close your eyes, do not think about any kind of event. Nothing happens. Have a blank slate and just try and imagine. Even if it's like in a totemic sense, a character emerge on a platform and think about every quality of that character, what makes it, what do they think? How do they react to things? What is their inner life? What are their aspirations? What gives. What breaks them? What gives them joy, what gives them hope? What do they like to do? How. What is their politics like? If you can understand that character in totality, plot will emerge organically from it. So this is what I mean. I can give you an example, you know, Judge Holden of Blood Meridian by Komak Makati or even Cheggu of the. Of no Country, Old Men. And yeah, I think that's a. As a novel, you know, that is an embodiment of evil. You know, this is a guy who. All he wants to do is. He gets into. He breaks into your store, right, tosses a coin and decides he's God. You know, he's like a kind of a maniacal evil subversion of God himself. So that is what I think is done here. And there are writers who would do that. They don't. You know, you read the short stories of the American writer Jhumpa Lahiri, for instance, and you see that also, not once does she take her eyes away from the character, you know, everything. If she's describing the streets, she's describing the weather, she's describing it by the character looking at the weather. So there's never a moment when you have, oh, the streets of Lincoln or London was cold in the. No, as he is walking down the street, he's looking at the cold weather, you know what. So there's no disconnection. There's almost no time in the remains of the day. Are we unhooked from Mr. Stevens?

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Right.

[Chigozi Obioma]

I think that is so. We have this sense of being wholly, endlessly and insanely immersed in these, you know, this. This cavern of humanity. And that is why we come out feeling like men. What did I mean, it's like I've. I journeyed into the soul of an individual, not into. Into his mind or head or whatnot. No, into something more profound, something deeper, something beyond the surface of things.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Right. And then. And the story he is living through is a quiet one in a. It's a. It's a profound one, as you say. But, you know, I'm thinking of at the beginning where he's. He's trying to adjust to his new American boss, or master, I guess, and he. The American is a little more. Is a little bolder, a little more communicative and kind of joshes with him a little more. And Stevens develops this idea that he needs to learn how to banter, that he has a problem. And it kind of carries through the book. But you think about that, and you start to really see this as a dilemma that he's living through, that he can't quite get the hang of. Banter. But he feels like he would be doing a better job if he could only figure out how to banter. And he wishes he had his old mentors back so he could ask him how, you know, what do you do when your boss banters? But it's a very small and subtle thing for a human being to be living through. It is a quiet thing, you might say, but you start to pin your hopes on it along with him, and to think of it as this obstacle to overcome. And it gets very exciting. But in another way, you know, it's. It's not. He's not talking about explosions or a car chase or, you know, anything that you would think would be exciting if you saw it in a movie or read about it, you know, in a newspaper or something. But it's. It's this fascinating way of taking an individual's private inner thoughts and turning them into something that's just riveting.

[Chigozi Obioma]

Yeah, no, that's absolutely true. And you think of life itself. So I like to think of this novel, of that character, of this, you know, what you've just said, as trees, for instance. So scientists have long found that trees actually are moving. You know, we do not get that sense. There's a tree rising my window in front of my house. And, you know, I do not never imagine that this is moving, but I think it is. And actually it makes sense that it's moving. So life is mobility itself. So it just occurs that some manifestations of life take that mobility reluctantly, but they all aspire all the same, to move. So that is what is interesting about that slice of desire, which is what sets the novel in motion. Okay, Lord Faraday has asked me to do something. Get out of this aspic state that you're in and take a journey. Why don't you discover what you know, the beauty of breathing, and take a drive, you know, and he decides, well, after all, this man has been scolding me for some time now. He's been paying attention to me. Yes, he's a foreigner, he's an American, but I might as well take advantage of this. I might as well try to discover what it actually means to do something new, to banter better, or to take a drive and discover Britain. So that very. As archetypal and quiet as that desire is, it results in something even more profound. So, which is what I think makes some of the greatest stories thrive. And as engaging as they are, if you look at even in film, think about Gladiator, for instance, by Regis Scott. So think about the desire that sets that whole story in motion. It is extremely simple. It is very archetypal. This man is a soldier, a commander in the Roman army. He has fought his battles, he has done his duty. He just now wants to go home to his wife and child. That is it. So what happens? The whole universe conspires to stop him from going home.

[Jack Wilson]

Right?

[Chigozi Obioma]

But the story really is that simple. The same thing. You could. You could make the case for this, okay, he has to go and fight as a king of Iteka. Greece is under attack by. By destroyers. Okay, the battle is done. He wants to go back home. So. But then an epic structure emerges from almost the simplest desires. So, so, so, so that is one of, again, one of the things that makes this novel very substantive. And the reason why I like to teach it a lot because, you know, usually I use the word amateur, but. But mostly young writers like us, we want to do this very explosive thing. You know, there's. Right, this. This character who wants to do this, wants to go here and do all that.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Right.

[Chigozi Obioma]

You don't really need that. You just need to give the character something as simple, even archetypal, but let them really want it.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Right. Right. And it can be to raise the stakes. Doesn't mean, you know, will he become a millionaire or will he, you know, fall in love and get married? But it can be something like, will he find peace or will he find understanding about himself?

[Chigozi Obioma]

Absolutely. Does it? Yes.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

So you've been called a chronicler. That was what you were the designation when you were awarded the Foreign Policy Tribute as one of the 100 global thinkers. Is that how you view yourself in your storytelling and in your fiction?

[Chigozi Obioma]

Well, maybe to a certain extent, yes. I do have the sense, especially in Nanoceptical Minorities, which was my 2019 novel, I felt like I was trying to monumentalize a piece of Igbo civilization, West African civilization, that has been thrown out the window, you know, and swallowed by this great boa of Western civilization and Christianity. So in a way, you could say that I'm trying to. To chronicle certain things.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah. Right. And how would you compare that with an Ishiguro who. You could say he was chronicling the 1950s or a way of life of these servants, but I also feel like he sort of has another project going as well. Is that kind of what you're trying to do in your fiction?

[Chigozi Obioma]

Oh, yeah. I really do believe that fiction should say more than one thing, so should, in fact, do more than one thing. So, you know, if I'm telling the story of a band of brothers and the fishermen, for instance, I'm also actually telling the story of Nigeria. The way in which, you know, these different nations were on their own. And, you know, somebody comes in and says, you know, this. I want to reorder things. This is how I think you should be, you know, and then by that pronunciation, you know, almost a kind of a prophetic saying, their lives become torn apart and their future becomes, you know, uneven and even darkly mythic. As, you know, the story of Nigeria still remains today. So I do get that sense, you know, from Ishiguro's novel as well.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah. I read a quote from Ishiguro that he said he was very consciously trying to write for an international audience. And he said, one of the ways I thought I could do this was to take a myth of England that was known internationally, in this case, the English butler. And then he was sort of helped because he said there weren't many stories told from the butler's point of view. So he felt like he had a kind of freedom to imagine his way into what the butler was thinking and what his life would have been like. Does that resonate with you at all? Are you pulling from your own experience or the people that you know and know closely? Or are you also looking around for a kind of archetype or a mythical figure that you can inhabit in your fiction?

[Chigozi Obioma]

I think it depends. I have just finished a novel that is set in the 60s Nigeria, which based on a historical event, but, say, in the Fishermen, for instance, my first novel, I was really pulling from my own, growing up, my childhood. So usually my novels begin from questions, from some kind of intuitive thinking or some musing about the world. Certain aspects of the world. So on that question for that novel was what is it that can come between brothers or siblings and turn the bond, the love between them into not indifference, not, you know, anything between, but hate, the direct opposite, the other side of the spectrum. And that's what informs the novel. So it's really about how a kind of sacred bond of brotherhood, it is broken.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Right. It's such a great idea for a book and so fascinating. I wanted to jump into the 21st century and I know you're currently involved in the Alexander project, a digital storytelling platform that releases nonfiction narratives and combines it with a list acting talent and puts out a short film of the story. So I understand your piece is called when the Risen Dust Settles. So was this specifically written for the digital performances or was this something that you were working on independently of Alexander?

[Chigozi Obioma]

No, it really was. I had been thinking obviously about that story because it was a real event for a long time. But when I got the note, the invitation from the folks at Alexander team, the editor, that was the first time I thought, okay, this is the time to actually put this into writing. And so I went. So I wrote it, envisioning that it will be read aloud.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Right. And what is the story about?

[Chigozi Obioma]

So it's about a young chigozee, Obioma, who finds himself in a kind of a unique college, a unique university in Nigeria, a private one that is supposed to be a Christian Catholic school. But that in many ways is anything but. It is in fact a kind of a Soviet style, kind of, should I say? I don't want to go for superlatives, but it kind of a camp where they are spies and all kinds. Like, you know, a kind of a very strict, almost borderline psychotic, you know, strict punishment and surveillance and life, you know, so we were not allowed to go out or have camera phones or computers. So we. There was no access to Internet, you know, so we were watched, we could not say anything we liked. And you know, it was a very stifling environment. And what is even worse, over your head while you were going to school, trying to become someone to get a degree was always the perpetual cloud that you could be expelled from the university at any time, you know, and that was like psychologically defeating for many of us who were students there.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

And it was ruled by sort of a particular individual who almost emerges as sort of a cult like figure or an authoritarian figure within this subculture of this college.

[Chigozi Obioma]

Yes. So it was by a band of sisters. And these are supposed to be people who have dedicated their lives to God in The pursuit of holiness. But they were, in fact, the opposite. They were some of the meanest people that I have ever seen. And I do not like to judge human beings, which is one of the reasons I think I write fiction. I feel like I'm not perfect, so I hesitate to call people names. But indeed, these people were truly mean. There was an incident that could not make it into that story where somebody was about to die, you know, but he was being forced to go on this compulsory spot. So every Wednesday morning, they would shepherd us out of our resident halls like kids and force us to do, like, one or two hours of compulsory spots, you know, in the name of it being, you know, like, healthy for us, you know, but you had to do it. And there was this guy who was suffering from. From hypendix. Appendix was about to bust, and they were making him do this thing, and this guy was in pain, so he came to me. That was one of the first times I actually got in trouble, you know, with the. With the sisters and the Reverend Fathers. You know, he came to me and I kind of raised an alarm. And, you know, so he ended up being taken to the hospital because of my intervention, you know, but the sisters. And he was told that if he hadn't come at the time he came, he would probably would have died. And the sisters were mad at me, you know, for ostensibly saving someone's life. So that was how mean and heartless this people kind of were.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Right. Was it difficult for you to return to this and tell the story, or did it feel cathartic or what was the experience like in. In digging back into these memories for this?

[Chigozi Obioma]

What is surprising to me is that I did not. For some reason, I buried the memory for such a long time. It just, you know, now I understand how people who had traumatic experiences wouldn't talk about it, you know, for a long time. I didn't. I think right now it feels somewhat catastic because it's as if I actually opened up, you know, something. A kind of a very closed and fortified and bunkered door within me. And now that is open. I feel like kind of a relief, you know. But, yes, it was somewhat difficult. And in fact, I felt like more my memory, you know, was. Was murky, and I had to go to some friends, you know, okay, was. Am I remembering this correctly? So, you know, they were the ones who helped me fill in some of the gaps that I had, you know, from. Because this was like, 12 years ago, so.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah, right. And have you gotten any response either from your friends and your fellow students or the, the people who worked at the university, have they responded in any way?

[Chigozi Obioma]

Well, I saw that someone with the name of the founding father of the school who, who is one of the, you know, figures in the, in the story, added me on, followed me on Instagram. So, you know, I think it's starting to go out there, but I think rolling out the word on the, on the piece has in just more publicity starting to come now. There will be an article in a Nigerian newspaper tomorrow, so I think it will be going out. But yeah, some of the old students have already read and downloaded the piece and, you know, they've reached out to me and said, yeah, you're right, this is, you know, you just drew us back to memory lane, all the things we went through. But I also think that once you can download it on Android, more people will also read it.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Right. And listen. So I wanted to ask you just about the process of putting it together. I know writing is such a solitary endeavor, and I was wondering what it was like for you as a writer to know that your work was going to be turned into a collaborative artistic project that would have, you know, a producer and a professional actor reading it and a short film was going to be made of it and so on. Were you worried that you were going to lose some control or were you excited to see what they would do with it or what was the emotional ride that you took when you were working on this project?

[Chigozi Obioma]

I felt like, you know, having had my work, had some experience with my work being transmitted into other medium, I was more kind of interested in seeing how that would unfold than anything because I felt like, you know, the Fisherman was made into this stage play that was like when was played in the UK for some time. It was on the run. Yeah. So I wasn't necessarily anxious, but I really was interested in seeing how that will come together. And I really think that everything.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

You.

[Chigozi Obioma]

Know, was well done. So Alexander is really a very innovative enterprise that the guy, Cameron Lam, he has a very unique vision. I don't think that this has been done before where you have a kind of the unity of all the senses, you know, the auditory sense, the visual one, and of course, the sense of reading, you know, and processing these stories all coming together in one forum, I think is brilliant, is amazing. And interestingly, you know, when I wrote the story and read it through, you know, during the revisionary process, I, you know, of course I felt some of the, the nuances and, and some, some of the things, but when I Had it read by. By Soko Dirzu. Yeah, I cried at the end, you know, so it almost made this story like something, you know, that has been taken away from me and the product of another person's mind because he's putting his own professional experience into it. He's mimicking the voices. He's putting cues here and there. He's emphasizing certain experiences and enunciating certain things in certain ways that made the story come so much alive that I was moved by it, which wasn't something I did when I read it.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah, that's really something. That's a great success story. I love to hear it. I think we all sort of hope that that's how it would be. But then I'm thinking of the example of a Stephen King who had Stanley Kubrick make the Shining and, you know, one of the. One of the most famous horror movies of all time and regarded as this essential classic of cinema. And Stephen King hated it and thought it got it wrong. And, you know, he seems to be the only one who didn't like the movie. So it's wonderful to hear that you. You felt like it was. It added something to your own experience to be able to hear it in the. In the voice of someone who knows how to emphasize certain things and did such a good job with it.

[Chigozi Obioma]

Yeah, indeed.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Okay, so I have a surprise bonus question for you.

[Chigozi Obioma]

Okay.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Are you ready?

[Chigozi Obioma]

Yeah.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Okay. After achieving success with your first two novels, you're visited by an eccentric billionaire who informs you that he's a huge fan of both you and Kazuo Ishiguro. His idea is to meld the two of you together. He's asked whether you would consider writing about a character from a historical subculture similar to the Butler in 1950s England in remains of the Day. You resist for a while, but his checkbook is open and he's offering to pay any amount you'd like. The only stipulation is that you can't write about yourself or anyone you know. Do you think you could write such a book? And if so, why? What time, place, and character would you choose?

[Chigozi Obioma]

Wow. Hmm. Yeah, I think I would be willing to write such a book. I mean, if it's going to give me any amount I want, I don't think you'll be able to pay, because when I say, give me $50 million. Yeah, but I think that would be very interested in writing about, I always wonder, what was it like? What was, say, my part of Africa like in the 11th, 12th century? You have a sense of what England might have been like. You have Beowulf. You have, you know, in fact, even in fantasy. I think that was one of the things that I liked about Game of Thrones because it was able to reimagine this, you know, period in Western civilization. And I don't think that because the writing system, for instance, in most of West African cultures did not. Were not used in, like, documenting things. They were more like for sacred inscriptions, you know, in shrines and whatnot. They didn't have like a writing system like you have where, you know, Homer or whoever is writing these stories of Troy or Herodotus. So I really imagine I would, I would like to write a story set in that period. You know, something like Mel Gibson's Apocalypso. I don't know if you saw that movie.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

No, I didn't.

[Chigozi Obioma]

Okay, so I think it's about this Mayan civilization, right? You know.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Chigozi Obioma]

So I thought that was very interesting. So I would like to set a story in that time and what else? Yeah, that would be the place.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Well, the bad news is I don't have $50 million to give you. But the good news is I would spend $29.95 on buying that book if you're able to write it someday. And in the meantime, I hope everyone runs out and gets your books and checks out your work on Alexander, which I understand is available at www.alxr.com Chigozi Obioma. Thank you so much for joining me on the history of literature.

[Chigozi Obioma]

Thank you so much, Jackie. Such a wonderful time I've had. Foreign.

[Jack Wilson]

There we go. This is 2024, Jack. Again, my thanks and my congratulations to Chikozy Obioma. New content returns next week. We have a December jam packed with literary goodies. Are you getting ready to read the Dubliners and watch the John Houston movie the Dead? If so, you are a kindred spirit, to be sure. I'm Jack Wilson. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

Sa I did consider Barney a friend, and he's still a friend to this day. The idea of Barney is something that I want to live up to.

[Chigozi Obioma]

You know I love you, you love me.

[Narrator or Advertisement Voice]

I call it the Purple Mantra.

[Jack Wilson]

Barney taught me how to be a man.

[Advertisement Voice]

Generation Barney, a podcast about the media we loved as kids and how it shapes us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. From Academy Award winning actor Matthew McConaughey's soulful and humorous picture book to New York Times best selling author Kristin Hanna's the Women Moms don't have Time to Read Books is an author interview podcast unlike any other. In 30 minutes or less, each episode of this chart topping and Webby Award winning show dives deep beneath the COVID fostering friendship and camaraderie, support and curiosity, connection and compassion. Hosted by me, Zibby Owens, author, bookstore owner, and head of what the LA Times called the Zibbyverse. Moms don't have Time to Read Books has something for everyone, whether you're a mom like me or simply a busy reader. So don't miss out. Follow Moms don't have Time to Read Books on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. New episodes are released every weekday, bringing books to life.