658 "The Snow Fairy" by Claude McKay | Literary Journeys (with John McMurtrie)

Summary

Episode 658: "The Snow Fairy" by Claude McKay | Literary Journeys (with John McMurtrie)
Release Date: December 5, 2024
Host: Jacke Wilson
Guest: John McMurtrie, Editor at McSweeney's Publishing and Former Books Editor at the San Francisco Chronicle

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1. Introduction

In this episode of The History of Literature, host Jacke Wilson delves into Claude McKay's evocative winter poem, "The Snow Fairy," before transitioning into an insightful conversation with John McMurtrie about his latest work, Literary Journey Mapping Fictional Travels across the World of Literature. The episode skillfully intertwines poetic analysis with literary exploration, providing listeners with a rich and engaging experience.

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2. Analysis of "The Snow Fairy" by Claude McKay

Jacke begins the episode by introducing Claude McKay, a prominent figure of the Harlem Renaissance known for his profound appreciation of African heritage and classical literature. She sets the stage for a deep dive into McKay's winter poem, "The Snow Fairy."

First Stanza Analysis: Jacke reads the first stanza, highlighting McKay's beautiful imagery:

"Snow fairies falling, falling from the sky, whirling fantastic in the misty air, contending fierce for space supremacy." ([05:10])

She interprets the snowflakes as fragile beings fleeing "heaven," seeking peace on earth, emphasizing their ephemeral beauty and collective existence.

Second Stanza Analysis: Moving to the second stanza, Jacke explores the emotional depth McKay introduces:

"And suddenly my thoughts then turned to you, who came to me upon a winter's night..." ([08:45])

This stanza shifts from the serene depiction of snowflakes to a personal narrative of fleeting love and memory. Jacke captures the poet's portrayal of a transient yet impactful encounter, likening it to snowflakes melting away at dawn.

Insights: Jacke reflects on how McKay masterfully balances beauty and transience, creating a poignant metaphor for human experiences of love and loss. She remarks:

"Claude McKay, what a great poet." ([10:30])

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3. Interview with John McMurtrie: Exploring "Literary Journey Mapping Fictional Travels across the World of Literature"

Book Overview

John McMurtrie introduces his book, which compiles over 75 fictional journeys from literature spanning antiquity to the contemporary era. Each entry is enriched with illustrations, maps, and visuals that bring these literary voyages to life.

Notable Quote:

"It helps guide you, too, I think. Or even it's not a happy story. But the Sheltering Sky. It has a certain allure..." ([19:03])

Editing Process and Criteria

Jacke inquires about the selection process for the book. John explains that as an editor, he reached out to contributors, including academics and journalists, to ensure a diverse range of voices and stories. The primary criterion was that each journey must be rooted in reality, avoiding fantastical realms unless they are based on actual places.

Notable Quote:

"We wanted them to be rooted in reality. Places that readers have neither been to or would like to go to or maybe just read about." ([17:40])

Favorite Examples

John shares his favorite entry, The Unlikely Pilgrimage of Harold Fry by Rachel Joyce. He appreciates its heartfelt narrative and how it serves as a beautiful addition to the collection.

Notable Quote:

"Harold is... decides to go walking to see this friend who he's heard from a former colleague. Out of the blue, she's dying." ([22:41])

Jacke adds her admiration for the book's presentation, describing the accompanying map that traces Harold Fry's 627-mile journey across England.

Visuals and Graphics

The conversation turns to the book's visual components. John credits Princeton University Press's art department for their exceptional work, which includes historical maps, vintage posters, and period-specific illustrations that enhance each literary journey.

Notable Quote:

"These are in that sense historical documents, even if you don't... it's a window into that world." ([31:43])

Categorization of Journeys

John discusses how the book categorizes journeys into four main sections:

1. Quests and Explorations: From antiquity to the late 19th century, covering epic voyages and early travel narratives.
2. The Age of Travel (1899-1953): Marking the rise of global travel and the advent of air travel.
3. Postmodern Movements (1955-1998): Highlighting leisure travel and self-discovery themes prevalent in the post-war era.
4. Contemporary Crossings (2000 and beyond): Addressing modern issues like globalization, forced migration, and environmental challenges.

Notable Quote:

"When you get into the 20th century... travel for leisure or finding oneself." ([33:34])

Trends and Future Insights

Jacke probes into potential future trends in literary journeys. John anticipates an increase in narratives reflecting ecological catastrophes and forced migrations due to climate change. He emphasizes that future literary journeys will likely explore non-traditional travel destinations and the socio-political landscapes shaping these travels.

Notable Quote:

"You have places like Bangladesh, which many people will have to leave, and then there are rising sea levels, too." ([41:44])

Jacke concurs, noting personal experiences and shifting travel preferences influenced by current global events.

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4. Conclusion

As the episode wraps up, Jacke thanks John McMurtrie for his insightful contributions and provides a sneak peek into upcoming episodes focusing on literary giants like Herman Melville, Shakespeare, Zora Neale Hurston, Edna Ferber, F. Scott Fitzgerald, and Henry James. She encourages listeners to subscribe and engage with the podcast for more enriching literary discussions.

Notable Quote:

"Please do subscribe and follow, etc. I'm Jack Wilson. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time." ([44:22])

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Key Takeaways

• Claude McKay's "The Snow Fairy": A masterful blend of natural imagery and personal emotion, illustrating the transient beauty of snowflakes as a metaphor for fleeting human experiences.

• John McMurtrie's Book: Literary Journey Mapping Fictional Travels across the World of Literature offers a comprehensive and visually enriched exploration of fictional travels, bridging historical contexts with literary narratives.

• Future of Literary Journeys: Anticipated to reflect contemporary global challenges, including climate change and forced migrations, highlighting non-traditional travel narratives.

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Useful Links:

• Find out more: historyofliterature.com
• Support the show: patreon.com/literature or historyofliterature.com/donate
• Contact: [e-mail]

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This summary encapsulates the essence of Episode 658, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened while highlighting the episode's key discussions and insights.

Transcript

[Jack Wilson]

The History of Literature Podcast is a member of the Podglomerate Network and LitHub Radio.

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[John McMurtry]

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[Jack Wilson]

Hello. A winter poem by Claude McKay and a set of literary journeys today on the history of literature. Okay, here we go. Welcome to the podcast. I'm. Do I need to say who I am? It somehow feels inhospitable not to introduce myself. I am inviting you into my home, so to speak. That's how it feels. Anyway, my hand is out. I'm Jack Wilson. Please come in. Help yourself to anything in the fridge. Just be careful when you use those plates we inherited. They have some kind of gilding that sparks in the microwave. Use the dull gray scratched up plates for nuking the food, but otherwise I'm happy to have you make yourself at home. We have a great show today. We're going to go on some literary journeys. A new book collects these great trips made by Kerouac and others. Kerouac? You had to know he would be there, right? Who else is an obvious choice for a literary journey? Tolkien? Well, maybe not. And we'll hear why. Homer Lawrence Stern what are the great voyages or journeys or travel narratives? How do you even begin to define such a thing? We'll discuss it with the editor who presided over the creation of this book, which is beautiful, with maps and photos and other inspiring visuals. You will want to read the books described, you'll want to hit the road. And why not do both? That's the peanut butter and jelly, isn't it? Or the peanut butter and chocolate. Has anything ever been that good in two different combinations as peanut butter, peanut butter and jelly? Classic. Peanut butter and chocolate. Also classic. What else? Maybe Richard Rogers, who worked with both Hart and Hammerstein, or what about books read while traveling? That's a good one. As is books read while at home. Books make both of those places, both of those states of existence better. Okay, we're in December now, our holiday month. Gabriel. Traditional Spanish Christmas Carol. There we go. That sets the mood. And let's set it a little more with a poem about snow and winter and warmth, too. By Claude McKay. Claude McKay was a Harlem Renaissance poet, a black writer born In Jamaica in 1889, the son of peasant farmers, proud of his African heritage and in love with John Milton and Alexander Pope and Keats and Shelley and Byron. He liked German philosophers like Schopenhauer. You can see where we're headed with this. That's my kind of poet. Clouds in the coffee, seeing the beauty of the simple life, simple pleasures, embracing love and sadness both. And, of course, embracing poetry. Here's his winter poem called the Snow Fairy. The Snow Fairy, by Claude McKay. 1. Throughout the afternoon I watched them there. Snow fairies falling, falling from the sky, whirling fantastic in the misty air, contending fierce for space supremacy. And they flew down a mightier force at night, as though in heaven there was revolt and riot, and they frail things had taken panic flight down to the calm earth, seeking peace and quiet. I went to bed and rose at early dawn to see them huddled together in a heap, each merged into the other upon the lawn, worn out by the sharp struggle, fast asleep. The sun shone brightly on them half the day. By night they stealthily had stolen away. That's the first stanza. Some very nice imagery there. Right. Snowflakes falling down as if fleeing heaven. They're too frail for heaven. They panicked, seeking peace and quiet on the earth. They come down in a riot at night, then huddle together in a heap during the day. They merge on the lawn, worn out. The sun melts them away throughout the day. But notice how Claude McKay or the poet, avoids the idea that they were killed. He says they had stolen away as if they left on their own, of their own accord. All that is beautiful. We can see the snowstorm. We can imagine what it's like to be a snowflake, to be fleeing from something, to have this existence as something beautiful and ephemeral, to be here just for a moment in time, coming from heaven to earth, unique as we are, but also part of the herd as human beings are. Now, stanza two is where things get interesting. Two. And suddenly my thoughts then turned to you, who came to me upon a winter's night, when snow sprites round my attic window flew, your hair dishevelled eyes aglow with light. My heart was like the weather when you came. The wanton winds were blowing loud and long. But you, with joy and passion all aflame, you danced and sang a lilting summer song. I made room for you in my little bed. Took covers from the closet, fresh and warm, A downful pillow for your scented head, and lay down with you resting in my arm. You went with dawn. You left me ere the day. The lonely actor of a dreamy play. Now that is a stanza with some downhill movement. The lines rush along. The emotion reaches a feverish intensity. Standing alone. This stanza describes an affair, a joyous, loving affair on a winter's night. There's snow swirling around outside. Don't you want to be there when this person shows up, hair disheveled and eyes aglow with light? You, the poet, or us, the readers, identifying with the poet? Oh, we know, don't we? Our hearts have been drafty, wind alone. Wanton winds blowing loud and long in our hearts as the snow swirls outside our attic window. You know the feeling. Cold all the way through your skin tingling with cold. Bones aching with cold. Living in the attic. And then here she is. Joy and passion are igniting her. She's aflame with it. She dances, she sings. A little thing. Summer song. It's like a battery come to life, ready to charge us up, warm us. What do we do? Well, we do what the poet does. We make room in the little bed. Little bed. So we know the two bodies will be close to one another. That's what this is going to be. Love and warmth. And the covers that he gets from the closet come out fresh and warm. How are they warm? What's warming them? Well, maybe. Maybe they can be fresh. And maybe they were right out of the dryer. That'd be lucky. But maybe more likely they're warm because we know what they will bring. It's going to be warm under these covers. And then she leaves in the morning, before the sun even comes up, and leaves us as the lonely actor in a dreamy play. Life will go on. We're still on the stage, but we're alone now, dreamy, remembering the night before. Now, those are two great stanzas. Peanut butter and jelly again, or chocolate, if you prefer. But put them together and we see what's going on in Mr. McKay's poem. This visitor is like the snow coming down. Isn't she beautiful? Inspiring. Fleeting here for a moment, then melting away into nothingness. We take the joy we can in the moment, from the moment. Then we have a memory, a dream, a dreaminess to accompany us as we dreamily continue with the stage play that is our lives and we, the actors in it, often delivering monologues alone on the stage, alone though with our thoughts and our memories. Come and visit us again. Snow Fairy. We'll somehow have warm covers coming out of our closet, the promise of warmth which two people can also provide one another even when both are cold, and maybe especially then. Claude McKay, what a great poet. And now we travel from Harlem to points unknown, points all over the place with Our guide, John McMurtry after this.

[John McMurtry]

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[Jack Wilson]

Okay. Joining me now is John McMurtry, who's an editor at McSweeney's Publishing and former books editor at the San Francisco Chronicle. He's here today to discuss his book, Literary Journey Mapping Fictional Travels across the World of literature. John McMurtry, welcome to the History of Literature.

[John McMurtry]

Hey, thank you very much. Happy to be here.

[Jack Wilson]

So I think the idea of literature and travel go hand in hand. I don't think anybody will be too surprised by this marriage of subjects here. And the COVID promises Melville and Conrad and Kerouac. We've got Phileas Fogg and his hot air balloon and Dracula's Transylvania and so on. But tell us about the book's contents. What will readers find when they open up that cover?

[John McMurtry]

Sure. So there are more than 75, maybe 78 total. Many essays, pieces on fictional journeys from all around the world and throughout time, going back to antiquity and to the present day. And each one is illustrated with lovely images, paintings and photos and movie stills from adaptations, things like that.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, it is a beautiful book.

[John McMurtry]

Yeah, it is. And I mean, even just the blue alone of the COVID I'm not sure what kind of blue you call this. It's a deep blue. Yeah. It's fun. It's fun and lively and. Yeah, artfully done. So I'm happy about that.

[Jack Wilson]

Right.

[John McMurtry]

And published by Princeton University Press. So they're good.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. So what was your role as editor?

[John McMurtry]

Sure. So I helped compile all these entries. I helped in the process considering books, making sure that we're covering our bases by getting titles from around the world, from various voices and from time periods. And I wrote the introduction to the book. And I also wrote the very last entry in the book, Hamer Tolls's. Now it's a couple books ago for him, I think the Lincoln highway, which is really wonderful novel and I think a good novel to wrap it up with because it's not dark. Many of these stories actually are. They're not all happy tales, but this one is a crowd pleaser. It's a good yarn.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. So that's from 2021. And we start with, I guess Homer is probably the earliest entry, going back a few years. Right.

[John McMurtry]

I think that's when you can use circa, you know, something like 7:25ish.

[Jack Wilson]

So you found these books, I'm wondering, then you had to have contributors who would kind of write a summary or an essay about the importance of that journey and describe it and so on. So did you have a list of these journeys? You knew the books you wanted to make sure you included, and then you went out and found the contributors, or did you invite contributors to pitch you on ideas that things they wanted to write about or how did that work?

[John McMurtry]

Right. It was mostly the. The first, the former, that we were reaching out to people.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[John McMurtry]

And saying, how about this? And this is right up your alley and can you do it now? And I know that Sam Sachs, for one of the Wall Street Journal, their fiction critic, he wrote one on them, the entry on True Grit, which I was very happy about. So, yes, people from all over the world, academics and journalists, and try to get a range there as well, and specializations, too, especially for the earlier stuff. So. And for me, for instance, I. I hadn't read the Lincoln highway before, so it was fun to. Not quite a standard review, which I've done a lot, but it was fun to sort of put on a different hat and think about that as a way to present this book as part of this collection.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. So let's talk about the three main criteria that you use to narrow things down. What was your thinking behind the first one I have here, which is that it must be fiction?

[John McMurtry]

Yeah. Well, we didn't want these stories to be about fantasy lands. We wanted them to be rooted in reality. Places that readers have neither been to or would like to go to or maybe just read about. You know, there are plenty of places in here that I can't say I want to go to. Right. But I guess it's like watching a movie as well, where it's thrilling, but no, thanks, I think I'll stay home on that one. So. Yes, very much. Places that do exist out in the real world.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. So Dante didn't make the cut.

[John McMurtry]

Exactly. Although depending on what year it is. Yeah. Some places are more hellish than others. And there's some fantastical elements, too, I think it's fair to say. Marco Polo, to say nothing of Homer and what you have there. But there is a place called Asia, and there is such a thing as the Mediterranean. And so these stories are rooted in reality. Same with Dracula. I have not been to that part of the world, but probably not too true to life. But it is a real place, you know, Transylvania is a thing.

[Jack Wilson]

So you weren't going to outer space, for example?

[John McMurtry]

No, no. I'm trying to think here.

[Jack Wilson]

Or if so, it wouldn't be like a fantastical journey. I didn't see any that went outer space, but I guess you could have if somebody had talked about going to the moon or something.

[John McMurtry]

I had to check myself there to make sure, but I cannot remember any space explorations. So, yeah, I think of the book as a sort of travel companion to various parts of the world. And it's also a. A time machine with these entries running chronologically. And you can sort of dip in and out of various time periods. And I don't know if you're like this as well. And I can't think of. Of course, now that I'm thinking of this exact examples. But over the years, I've always tried to pick a book that has to do with the place I'm going to.

[Jack Wilson]

Right.

[John McMurtry]

Whether it's like Tony Hillerman going to the Southwest, that sort of thing. So I think this is the perfect book for that. You can almost dip in and say, okay, I'm going to go to Italy. What do I need here? It helps guide you, too, I think. Or even it's not a happy story. But the Sheltering Sky. It has a certain allure, too, even though it's a dark tale. Right. I haven't read it in decades, and it's one of many things that I probably go to this back to this sooner than I would others. But let's say the road, as much as I appreciated a lot of the road, I don't need to be messed with in that way emotionally, I think. So I'm good for now.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. I heard once that all stories are one of two basic stories. One is a stranger comes to town, and the other one is a person goes on a journey which is really just a stranger comes to town told from the opposite point of view. And so it seems like some of these really jump out, obviously, on the road. And Lolita. And we have these examples of real road books where they're in a car or on a ship or something and they're going somewhere. But a lot of them are journeys that are almost, you could say, it might be hard to draw a distinction between a journey and a skill setting. So did you run into books that you had to make that kind of a call and say, I don't know if there's enough of a journey here? It has a beautiful description of a faraway place, but maybe the people are living there without actually journeying?

[John McMurtry]

Sure. I think some are more or less in people's backyards. So the other definite quests and people are setting out on the road to do something. Don Quixote, there's an idea in mind, but there are others where it's by happenstance or there's tragedy, there's forced migration, things happen. So that's not the returning home. I think it's the nostos. Is that the term where we get our nostalgia from the idea of returning home? It's more an escape from home that I have to leave home, like right now. So I don't remember being thinking, oh, no, this place, this story doesn't quite fit the bill in that sense, if that answers your Question. Yeah. So I think there's more variety there.

[Jack Wilson]

So you were willing to keep that a little bit, that part of the definition a little bit loose.

[John McMurtry]

Yeah. And I'm thinking of Rachel Joyce's Unlikely Pilgrimage of Harold Fry, which is a really sweet story and, and not too sweet, not syrupy sweet, but this is an unlikely journey that this man takes. He's, he really. He's a retiree, Harold is. And decides to go walking to see this friend who he's heard from a former colleague. Out of the blue, she's dying. And he wants to will her to stay alive by saying, just, just hold on there. I'm gonna, I'm gonna visit you. You know, this is gonna take more than a few days, so it's fairly contained to England and to his backyard, as it were, because he doesn't. He's not a man of the world. He's a simple man. There's that sort of story, I think, which is not your typical pilgrimage.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. Okay, let's take a quick break and then come back with more from John McMurtry. This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate First. Like, you know, to check the date of the big game first before you accidentally buy tickets on your 20th wedding anniversary and have to spend the next 20 years of your marriage making up for it. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate Savings. Vary terms apply. Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois.

[John McMurtry]

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[Jack Wilson]

Okay, we're back. So, John, I was wondering if you might choose a few favorites for us so we can talk about kind of how they're set up and what they're doing within the context of the book. Is there an example or two that really came together for you or that you find especially compelling?

[John McMurtry]

I mean, I just mentioned one that really does stand out. The Unlikely Pilgrimage of Harold Fry, again by Rachel Joyce. It was adapted into a movie. I haven't seen it. Again, I'm a little afraid that happens sometimes. And there are those rare novels that. The other way around, maybe famously the Godfather as being an example of a movie that's better than the novel. So this one I'm not so sure about, but yes, definitely the Joyce, I think Tommy Waringo.

[Jack Wilson]

Oh, wait, I don't want to leave Joyce quite yet because I just turned to that page and so we get here. I just kind of want to describe it for the listeners so they can get a sense of what the book would look like. So it's got a. It's like a two page essay, but it also has a picture of the book's cover, a picture of the book's author, a little kind of side summary that runs down the left margin, and a summary in italics that kind of gives us a one sentence version of what the book is about. And then it has this beautiful map that is very inviting. And it's a map of Great Britain and it, it has a key that says the unlikely pilgrimage of Harold Fry. 627 miles in 87 days. And then it traces the route. It's got a little starting point in the southwest of London here. And then it shows you where it. And all the points that it goes through Leeds and York and Bath and everything. And it is just a really nice. I kind of feel like I have people in my life who don't necessarily love to read, but they love literature and they just kind of love the. Like they collect old books and like having them on their shelf. This is kind of a nice book for someone like that. You know, they can read about a book and they can kind of imagine their way into it through these graphics and through the map and kind of spend time thinking about a journey even if they're not committing to reading the entire book or it could just whet their appetite and then they run out and get the book and read it.

[John McMurtry]

Yeah, well said. And I think it's an old timey map too. I think that's one of the things it could be sort of. I mean, even the font is a little Lord of the Rings ish. But yeah, you also. They're old railway posters that have that effect.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, right.

[John McMurtry]

And for the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, there's an old map of the Mississippi river And it's a U.S. coast Survey from the. I think from 1865. So it has you really looking at the details. Yeah, these are good entry points for that, certainly. And paintings going back to earlier works when there weren't Any. Well, you don't have any author photos, for instance.

[Jack Wilson]

Right, right.

[John McMurtry]

But this one here, Don Quixote, there are a couple of works, one done by Daumier, no less, from about 1850. So you see these clearly work like this, big ones, inspiring artists, other writers and artists, centuries later even.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. Or I just stumbled across the one of Uncle Tom's Cabin, which shows the crossing across the ice floes, which was sort of the. Almost like the peak of that journey in that book. It's such a central moment. And it's a color lithograph that was done in 1860, which shows the dramatic barefooted and bloody escape across the cold ice floes. And it gives you the feel of the book, of the time period, the drama. And then you see the little picture of Harriet Beecher Stowe in the bottom left hand corner, and she's older than I expected her to look. It's true.

[John McMurtry]

It's true.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[John McMurtry]

And there's also postage size cover from the time.

[Jack Wilson]

Right.

[John McMurtry]

An original in the 19th century. Yeah, yeah. And then just on the next page you got a poster that accompanies in French jewel burns around the world in 80 days.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. And it's sort of.

[John McMurtry]

It's crazy.

[Jack Wilson]

It's like. It reminds me in a way of like a circus poster or a travel poster, kind of in that graphic style with the colors and everything. But it filled up like a Bruegel painting or something with like little figures and maybe a big comic book, like a tin tin or something. And it's a great representation of that book in that time period. And the flavor of the journey with this train steaming along and along with the globe here. And the steamship.

[John McMurtry]

The explosion and the fire.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, the explosion. Right.

[John McMurtry]

And a perhaps dated depiction of some locals here.

[Jack Wilson]

Oh, yeah, I didn't see that. Yeah. And they seem to be in a battle.

[John McMurtry]

That's what you get too, when you look at older works. You get depictions from that time and it's not all pretty. And that goes not just for people from other parts of the world, but how women were depicted, for instance, turn of the century here. And there's just some unfortunate but not surprising views by male authors. I mean, the Wheel of Chance by H.G. wells is a fair amount of that. It'll make people cringe, but it gives you a sense of what the times were all about. So that's important as well, you know, that's. That's history. Yeah, you can't get rid of that, you know. So these are in that sense historical documents, even if you Don't. Perhaps you're not getting great entertainment from such a tale. It's a window into that world, I think.

[Jack Wilson]

Now, did you ask the contributors to suggest ideas for the graphics that could be included or was this something you were on the hunt for or others helped you?

[John McMurtry]

This is really the publisher doing a lot of this work. Their art department.

[Jack Wilson]

Oh, right.

[John McMurtry]

Yeah. I should ask about that. More details on that.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, it is just amazing. I mean, I love kind of the solidity and the familiarity of seeing the COVID and seeing the author photo. But the other picture that each one of these gets is really kind of the star of the book, I think, because they're so different and yet they just are so interesting to look at and. And so eye catching because each page has something. You know, one seems like you're looking at a postcard, another one, it's like a really interesting map that looks almost hand drawn or a painting or. It's really wonderful.

[John McMurtry]

And then as you get to modern times, it's more. Almost documentary, like with photos and. Yeah. Asia and. Yeah. It's less fantastical and more the real world as it is.

[Jack Wilson]

Yep. Okay, so let me ask you about the categorizations. We've got it divided into four basic categories. Quests and explorations, and then the age of travel, postmodern movements and contemporary crossings. But I was wondering if you had that in mind before you were putting together the list, or if you kind of organized them all chronologically and then started noticing some themes or how did that come about?

[John McMurtry]

Yeah, I think it was really a way to simply give the reader a little bit of a break and to categorize these, generally speaking. I mean, for the first one, quests and explorations from antiquity to the late 19th century. I mean, it's essentially a couple thousand years. The ancient and medieval world, Renaissance, everything up to the modern era. Yeah. It's only when you get into the 20th century that you get some more distinction in there. Yeah. When, for instance, with the second one, the age of travel from 1899-53, when you. I think you've got. That's a time when global travel really begins in earnest. It's also the arrival of air travel, people who don't usually travel. I mean, I suppose it's a little before the catch me if you can era. The DiCaprio movie of just flight, air travel as this fun thing to do.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. The elegance and the.

[John McMurtry]

Yeah. Before you get to what we have, I mean, I guess that would be in the postmodern movement. Here we've got 55 to 98. Yeah. Sort of the Happy Days era. And a lot of that is it's travel for leisure or finding oneself. I hadn't realized until working on this that John Updike's Rabbit Run novel is more or less an answer to on the Road and telling us about, well, here's the reality of what can happen when someone leaves home and the destruction, if you will, that you've left behind you. In the post war era there were a lot of people, 60s of course, going out and finding themselves. Right. So that's, I think what's reflected there. And then you've got 2,000 and on. So I think that's really past, I think is what I was hinting at before. There's not much glamour left in a lot of air travel. But more disturbingly, we're in a world where there's globalization and people are losing out around the world and being forced to travel, to migrate. This suffering. And so you have a novel like Tommy Wearinga's, these are the names, he's a Dutch writer and that's a really, that's a tough novel. It's also, it's got darkly comic aspects to it, but it's very rooted in the presence. And also Mohsin Hamid's migration novel and the same with Kim Tui, I hope I'm pronouncing her name correctly. Vietnamese born Canadian writer whose book is Rue. And it's, it's all about that crossing the ocean because you have to tied to warfare. So. And it's not the first. I mean you go back to Homer and war, that's the backdrop here for so many of these stories. Yeah, that's one constant.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. The Rue example has a really striking photograph of people crowded into a really small boat with what looks like maybe a blanket or some kind of sheet or a cover being used as a makeshift sail. And it just looks so precarious and treacherous and their faces are so visible in this photograph that you see them all kind of looking up, but you just see the kind of conditions they're in. They really don't even have enough room to even turn around. Basically it looks like quite a harrowing.

[John McMurtry]

Journey and it's not the standard one we hear about going to the States. I mean, after all, in Vietnam, as you might know, and is not called the Vietnam War, it's called the American War. But this is a story of going to Canada. So different setting, different context, different reactions from people. I mean it is the west, so some of it's similar. She's not going to a place that perpetrated this war.

[Jack Wilson]

Right, right. So how long did you work on this book? And did working on it make you want to get out there and travel to a new place?

[John McMurtry]

Of course, you know, it's all a blur. The detail, in essence, to tell you the truth, it's a while ago now, at least a couple years, but. So during the pandemic, this is the kind of journey I was doing. I'm in the San Francisco Bay area, so this was not unique, but I was one of those people. It seemed like either paddle boarding or, let's see, pickleball. I was getting into both. So I was out a little bit in the. In the bay, San Francisco Bay, and learning how to do this thing, falling in the water a lot and with no one around me for miles and being able to see the Golden Gate and pass the Golden Gate Bridge and thinking, just past that is the land due west is Japan. And I would think. I've never been to Japan. It's high on my list of places to go. But I often would think, you know, there must be a few people in Japan right now during the pandemic, looking back this way, wondering about Americans.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, right.

[John McMurtry]

In that sense, it was gratifying to work on a book that had to do with other places when I was cooped up at home. And it wasn't organized in that way, but it just happened to be that we came to be in the pandemic. But books from the book, I think Jerome K. Jerome's Three Men in a Boat, which. It's a little dated, but it still had me wanting to go boating in England, find a little river somewhere. Didn't have to be England. Maybe somewhere in Europe or even here in the Bay Area. Rivers aren't so much a thing. Rivers and lakes. I think I mentioned the sheltering sky. I've been to Tunisia, but I would. It still has me wanting to go back to North Africa and the rings of Saturn. Seabald, W.G. sebold's novelistic memoir that he sets in East Anglia, where he, I believe, used to live. His experiences there and all his digressions and places that I didn't know about. These towns, they're medieval. There's at least one place that's a medieval town in ruins. And I think you can, to this day, go and see. These places exist by the water. Those are just a few of the places that come to mind that I could easily go to. Yeah.

[Jack Wilson]

I wonder if you were spotting any trends and if it gave you any thoughts about the future, what we might. If you were to do a second edition of this 25 years from now, if you would see, certainly there would probably be some examples of people who were cooped up during the pandemic and then shot out of a cannon when that was over. And one example I thought of in my own life is I sort of grew up with all of these books like A Room with a View and places like that where it's the English journey, where they're looking for someplace warm and someplace sunny and they go to Spain or Italy or something, and. And lately my family has been doing kind of the opposite, where we're so hot in August. I live in Washington, D.C. area, and we've been looking to go north. You know, we're not looking to lie on a beach in August. We're looking to someplace where we can wear a jacket and jeans. And so we've been going to places like Montreal and Quebec City, and we just got back from a trip to Norway, and. And so I'm wondering if you saw anything like that or if your work with some of the contemporary books, for example, gave you any thoughts about what we're likely to see in the future of these literary journeys.

[John McMurtry]

Yeah, I don't think it's going to be a pretty picture in a lot of ways, and that some of the stories hint at that or more than hint at that.

[Jack Wilson]

Fleeing ecological catastrophe and. Yeah, certainly.

[John McMurtry]

I mean, you have places like Bangladesh, which many people will have to leave, and then there are rising sea levels, too. There are islands all over the world where this will be an issue. So you're going to have, I mean, population growth and forced migration. Who knows what's happening potentially with warfare. But I think people are going to places that aren't your traditional travel destinations where they want to learn things. I think we'll get stories where. Sort of where you have unexpected encounters.

[Jack Wilson]

What's interesting is that even though we can sometimes think of travel as being an escape from one's circumstances or kind of stepping outside of the world of current events and politics and daily life and stuff, when you think about it, you can mark those world historical events and the impact that they have on these journeys, that it's, you know, you can see imperialism at its height or you can see wars and the. The impact of those things as well. And so as we were just talking about, you know, the era we enter into is going to imprint itself on the. The types of travel journeys we're going to see.

[John McMurtry]

Definitely I mean, I think there are certainly timeless elements to a lot of these, but then they will also be rooted in their time and place, so they will be specific. You have that in many of these stories, right?

[Jack Wilson]

And although there is something nice about committing to a journey for a few weeks or a month, we currently don't have the ability to travel in time. And there is something very nice about having a book like this one and leaping through it and going on lots of journeys all in the course of an afternoon or an evening. So I am grateful for that. The book is called Literary Mapping Fictional Travels across the World of literature. John McMurtry, thank you so much for joining me on the History of Literature.

[John McMurtry]

Thank you so much.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay, there we go. That's going to do it for this episode of the History of Literature. My thanks to John McMurtry for joining us. We'll be back soon with some more holiday festivities and we're getting ready for some New Year's excitement as well. How about a little sneak preview of January when we will be diving into Herman Melville and Shakespeare, Zora Neale Hurston, Edna Ferber, librarians turned spies, maybe a little F. Scott Fitzgerald and Henry James. So please do subscribe and follow, etc. I'm Jack Wilson. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.

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[Jack Wilson]

The idea of Barney is something that I want to live up to. You know I love you, you love me. I call it the Purple Mantra. Barney taught me how to be a man.

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