Podcast Summary: The History of Literature – Episode 671: Shakespeare's Tragic Art (with Rhodri Lewis) | My Last Book with Joel Warner

Introduction

In Episode 671 of The History of Literature, host Jack Wilson delves into the intricate world of Shakespearean tragedy with esteemed English professor Rhodri Lewis from Princeton University. The episode also features a brief conversation with journalist and author Joel Warner. Skipping over the introductory advertisements and listener messages, the focus remains firmly on unpacking the complexities of Shakespeare's tragic works and their enduring impact on literature and audiences alike.

Listener Letter: A Personal Connection to Spies

Before delving into the main discussion, Jack shares a heartfelt letter from an anonymous listener who reveals a family history intertwined with espionage:

“My pregnant mother was one of those recruits. She began her 40-year career with the federal government while I was still in the oven in 1942. My older late brother spoke 13 languages. He was in Havana when Castro came down out of the mountains...”
(00:55)

Jack reflects on the intriguing dynamics of living among individuals engaged in covert operations, highlighting the blend of mundane everyday interactions with the concealed lives of spies.

Main Discussion: Shakespeare's Tragic Art with Rhodri Lewis

Shakespeare’s Engagement with Tragedy

Jack Wilson opens the conversation by questioning whether Shakespeare was influenced by his predecessors or if he pioneered new approaches to tragedy:

“Hello, it's easy to take tragedy for granted. We accept tragedy as a high form of art... Why does tragedy do for us? Why do theatergoers pay to see something unhappy?”
(00:55 – 08:00)

Rhodri Lewis responds by contextualizing Shakespeare within the tradition of both classical Greek and Senecan tragedies, acknowledging his mastery and innovation:

“Shakespeare sort of definitively has a hand in both of those when he starts to write his own tragedies... But tragedy, for various reasons... is seen as being the most dignified, the most sort of grand of all the dramatic genres.”
(08:14 – 12:16)

Lewis emphasizes that Shakespeare's commitment to tragedy was driven by artistic ambition rather than commercial motives:

“If you were a hard-headed business manager of an Elizabethan or Jacobean theater, you wouldn't want to have too much of your list made up of tragedy... He’s doing this for some other reason.”
(12:16 – 12:54)

Challenges in Crafting Tragedy

Jack probes into the inherent difficulties Shakespeare faced in writing effective tragedies:

“With tragedy, things could go wrong where the audience isn't getting the kind of effect that you want them to get... What are you seeing in the text that makes you think that Shakespeare wrestled with getting this right?”
(12:55 – 14:17)

Lewis explains that unlike comedies, tragedies require deep characterization and emotional resonance, which are harder to achieve consistently:

“In tragedy, you need characters with what Aristotle calls ethos, depths of characterization... We have to really care that the protagonist... has done what they've done... and have to care about them going into a position of suffering.”
(14:17 – 16:58)

Evolution of Shakespeare’s Tragic Technique

The conversation moves to how Shakespeare’s approach to tragedy evolved over time, highlighting his experimental nature:

“He comes at tragedy... with extraordinary audacity and skill and no little bravery... but he doesn't quite know what he's doing yet.”
(16:58 – 18:12)

Lewis discusses the progression (or lack thereof) in Shakespeare’s tragedies, suggesting that rather than a linear improvement, Shakespeare tackled different facets of tragedy in each play:

“I think sort of more of the latter... He sets out a different challenge for himself in the next one... An artist who is tackling different aspects of the tragic form.”
(26:39 – 27:15)

Emotional Depth and Human Cognition in Tragedy

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Shakespeare's portrayal of human emotion and cognition:

“Our ability to remake the world in ways that we find congenial or manageable to ourselves... human beings... constantly strive for meaning, for order, for patterns... while also being driven by emotionality that can lead us astray.”
(18:12 – 41:13)

Lewis argues that Shakespeare captures the intrinsic emotionality of humans, illustrating how our desire to create narratives about ourselves can both empower and deceive us.

“Shakespeare takes it to... a new height... exploring the ways in which that intrinsic emotionality... can get in the way of the kinds of stories we want to tell ourselves.”
(39:21 – 41:05)

Case Studies: Titus Andronicus and Romeo and Juliet

The discussion includes specific analyses of Titus Andronicus and Romeo and Juliet to exemplify Shakespeare’s evolving tragic craft:

“Titus is a play with all kinds of cool things... but... everyone is horrid... we don't really care... In contrast, in Romeo and Juliet,... we see characters with more depth and emotional complexity.”
(08:59 – 17:55)

Shakespeare's Undermining of Classical Tragic Conventions

Lewis highlights how Shakespeare maintains traditional tragic structures while simultaneously subverting them:

“He retains that sort of structural shape while simultaneously kind of undermining it... making the audience see some of those conventions as being perhaps some of those fictions of order.”
(24:40 – 26:39)

This duality allows Shakespeare to respect traditional expectations while introducing unpredictability and emotional authenticity.

Emotional Resonance and Audience Connection

The ability of Shakespeare’s tragedies to evoke deep emotional responses is discussed as a key factor in their enduring appeal:

“Shakespeare's emphasis on the ineradicably emotional ways in which we think... that's something that ancient Athenian tragedy does very well... Shakespeare takes it to a new height.”
(39:21 – 41:05)

Conclusion of the Discussion with Rhodri Lewis

As the conversation wraps up, Lewis summarizes how Shakespeare's tragic works compel audiences to confront the complexities of human nature and emotion without offering simple moral resolutions:

“The purpose of great literature is to make us see things more clearly, even though those things might be gross and disconcerting.”
(51:39 – 52:02)

Conversation with Joel Warner: Choosing the Last Book

Following the in-depth discussion with Lewis, Jack engages briefly with Joel Warner about his personal choice for a final book:

Joel Warner: “I would want the book to be something that is transporting but takes me... immersive.”
(53:28 – 53:40)

Warner dismisses the idea of choosing 120 Days of Sodom-the infamous work by the Marquis de Sade—as his final read:

Joel Warner: “No, I definitely do not want to read 120 Days of Sodom...”
(53:43 – 54:13)

Jack humorously explores the contrast between seeking an immersive, positive experience versus the controversial nature of Sade’s work, ultimately affirming Warner's preference for more uplifting literature.

Conclusion

Jack Wilson wraps up the episode by thanking Rodri Lewis and Joel Warner for their insights. He hints at upcoming episodes exploring a diverse range of literary topics, including Sylvia Plath, racial themes in European fairy tales, and deep dives into authors like Henry James and Emily Brontë.

“Stay tuned for all of those glorious episodes... What role do books play in shaping who we are?... Each week I dive into shocking stories... join the Cult of the Curious.”
(52:12 – End)

Notable Quotes:

• Rhodri Lewis:

  “Shakespeare wants us to see some of those conventions as being perhaps some of those fictions of order... what really matters is trying to get back to the most fundamental understanding of ourselves and treating one another with kindness and gentleness.”
  (25:10)

• Joel Warner:

  “I would die a happy man if the final book I read kind of offered me one.”
  (53:40)

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a profound exploration of Shakespeare's mastery in crafting tragedies that resonate emotionally and intellectually. Rhodri Lewis provides a compelling analysis of how Shakespeare navigated and redefined the tragic genre, ensuring its relevance through complex characterizations and authentic emotional narratives. Joel Warner’s segment further enriches the discussion by contrasting personal literary preferences with notorious literary works, underscoring the diverse ways literature impacts and reflects human experience.

For more insights and deep dives into literary history, visit historyofliterature.com or follow the podcast on Facebook at facebook.com/historyofliterature. Support the show through Patreon or donate at historyofliterature.com/donate.