693 Understanding the Wonders of Nature (with Alan Lightman) | My Last Book with Alan Lightman

Summary

Podcast Summary: The History of Literature, Episode 693 – “Understanding the Wonders of Nature” with Alan Lightman

Introduction

In Episode 693 of The History of Literature, host Jack Wilson engages in a profound conversation with the esteemed scientist and novelist Alan Lightman. Released on April 7, 2025, this episode delves into Lightman’s latest work, The Miraculous from the Understanding the Wonders of Nature. Through their dialogue, listeners gain insight into the intersection of science and literature, exploring how the marvels of the natural world inspire both intellectual and emotional responses.

Alan Lightman’s Multifaceted Career

Jack Wilson opens the discussion by highlighting Lightman's remarkable dual career as both a physicist and a novelist. He remarks, “How many aspiring novelists are out there trying to make it? And here’s a guy who’s not only written novels but has won prizes for doing so” ([09:00]). Lightman’s academic journey is impressive, with a PhD from Caltech and a history of contributions to astrophysics, including his dissertation on accretion disks. Beyond academia, Lightman has published poetry and essays in prestigious outlets like The New Yorker and The Smithsonian, founded a nonprofit to advance women leaders in Southeast Asia, and served on the United Nations' scientific advisory board.

Childhood Influences and Dual Passions

When asked about his childhood, Lightman shares, “I was just born with a certain curiosity” ([09:52]). Growing up in Memphis, Tennessee, with a dance teacher mother and a father who owned a movie theater, Lightman was somewhat of an anomaly in his household. His early interests spanned both scientific experiments—such as collecting pond water to observe microorganisms—and creative pursuits like writing short stories and poetry. This dual passion set the foundation for his later achievements in both science and literature.

Exploring The Miraculous from the Understanding the Wonders of Nature

Lightman’s new book serves as the centerpiece of the discussion. He explains that the inspiration struck during a jog when he observed a low mist over a field, prompting questions about its formation ([12:03]). The book comprises approximately 35 chapters, each beginning with a high-resolution color photograph of a natural phenomenon—ranging from spider webs and lightning to the rings of Saturn and volcanic eruptions. Accompanying each image are Lightman’s personal reflections and scientific explanations, blending emotional appreciation with intellectual analysis.

Spiritual Materialism: Bridging Science and Awe

A key theme in the conversation is Lightman’s concept of “spiritual materialism.” He states, “I embrace the spiritual side of myself, but I’m also a materialist. I don’t think there’s anything supernatural in the world” ([15:49]). This perspective allows him to find the miraculous in the material world without invoking the supernatural. For example, discussing spider webs, Lightman notes, “A silk strand of a spider web has twice the tensile strength of a strand of steel of the same diameter” ([16:28]). This scientific marvel enhances his awe and appreciation for such natural creations.

The Organization and Selection of Book Chapters

Lightman outlines the meticulous process behind selecting topics for his book. Each chapter features visually stunning phenomena that meet two criteria: inherent beauty and the availability of high-resolution public domain photographs ([26:22]). He personally curated the images, avoiding the substantial costs associated with commissioning original photography. This careful selection ensures that each chapter not only educates but also captivates the reader visually.

Deep Dive into Specific Chapters

1. Atmosphere

   • Discussion: Lightman describes the Earth’s atmosphere as “a thin blue ribbon” from space, highlighting its fragility and essential role in sustaining life ([28:11]).
   • Quote: “The thinness of the atmosphere makes us realize how fragile life is on Earth” ([28:24]).

2. Atoms

   • Discussion: Delving into the microscopic, Lightman explains how recent technological advancements have allowed us to visualize atoms, revealing their vibrational and quantum nature ([30:50]).
   • Quote: “Mathematics is beautiful... When you work with it to describe the physical world, it just increases your admiration” ([21:17]).

3. False Streak Holes

   • Discussion: These unique cloud formations, created by airplanes passing through supersaturated clouds, demonstrate the interplay between natural phenomena and human activity ([38:13]).
   • Quote: “A fall streak pole is caused by airplanes going through supersaturated clouds” ([38:44]).

Enhancing Experiences Through Understanding

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the idea that understanding the science behind natural phenomena enhances the emotional experience of witnessing them. Lightman compares this to enjoying classical music with program notes, which provide context and depth ([42:23]). He argues that intellectual comprehension and emotional appreciation are not mutually exclusive but rather complementary aspects of human experience.

Humanity’s Extraordinary Role

The final chapter of Lightman’s book is dedicated to humans, underscoring our remarkable achievements and the intricate balance between our creations and the natural world. Lightman emphasizes, “We human beings are extraordinary... When you think about what we have been able to do... we’re pretty amazing” ([46:33]). This acknowledgment serves as both a celebration and a reminder of our responsibility towards the natural wonders we cherish.

Preparing for Death: A Reflective Special Segment

In a poignant addition to the episode, Wilson poses a listener’s question to Lightman about his choice for the last book he would read on his deathbed. Lightman expresses a desire for a book that aids in psychological preparation for death, favoring Buddhist texts like The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying for their insights on acceptance and gratitude ([50:06]). This segment adds depth to the conversation, highlighting Lightman’s contemplative side and his views on mortality.

Conclusion

Episode 693 of The History of Literature masterfully intertwines science and literature through Alan Lightman’s exploration of nature’s wonders. By dissecting the beauty and complexity of natural phenomena, Lightman not only educates but also inspires a deeper appreciation for the world around us. His concept of “spiritual materialism” serves as a bridge between empirical understanding and emotional resonance, offering listeners a holistic perspective on the miraculousness inherent in the material world.

Notable Quotes

• Jack Wilson: “How many aspiring novelists are out there trying to make it? And here’s a guy who’s not only written novels but has won prizes for doing so” ([09:00]).

• Alan Lightman: “I was just born with a certain curiosity” ([09:52]).

• Alan Lightman: “I embrace the spiritual side of myself, but I’m also a materialist. I don’t think there’s anything supernatural in the world” ([15:49]).

• Alan Lightman: “Mathematics is beautiful... When you work with it to describe the physical world, it just increases your admiration” ([21:17]).

• Alan Lightman: “The thinness of the atmosphere makes us realize how fragile life is on Earth” ([28:24]).

• Alan Lightman: “A fall streak pole is caused by airplanes going through supersaturated clouds” ([38:44]).

• Alan Lightman: “We human beings are extraordinary... When you think about what we have been able to do... we’re pretty amazing” ([46:33]).

Final Thoughts

Alan Lightman’s contributions, as discussed in this episode, exemplify the harmonious blend of scientific inquiry and literary expression. The Miraculous from the Understanding the Wonders of Nature emerges as a testament to human curiosity and the perpetual quest to comprehend and cherish the intricate tapestry of the natural world. For listeners seeking to deepen their appreciation of literature’s role in exploring scientific phenomena, this episode offers both enlightenment and inspiration.

Transcript

[Jack Wilson]

The History of Literature Podcast is a member of the podglomerate Network and Lit Hub Radio. Have you ever had the urge to sneak behind the cordoned off areas of a museum or roam the halls after closing time? The Smithsonian's flagship podcast, Side Door, will sneak you behind the scenes of the world's largest museum and research complex. Come learn about the ghosts that supposedly walk the museum halls after dark, how a train robbery gave rise to criminal forensics, why leeches are actually the coolest thing ever, and how to get away with murder in the Arctic. Maybe you'll discover stories of history, science, art, and culture you won't find in a display case. You can listen to Side Door wherever you get your podcasts or find us [e-mail] sidedoor. It's spring Black Friday at the Home Depot. So what are you working on? If you're sprucing up your lawn, you know there's no such thing as too much mulch, so don't miss this special. Buy five bags of Scott's EarthGrow mulch for only $10 at the home Depot. Promote healthier soil, prevent weeds, and beautify your yard with mulch that maintains its color for up to 12 months. Shop 14 days of deals during spring Black Friday, now through April 16at the home Depot. Hello. Today on the podcast, a scientist and novelist, Alan Lightman tells us about the miraculousness of the material world and a man who's excelled at both fiction and nonfiction. Alan Lightman tells us about his choice for the last book he will ever read. All coming up today on the history of literature. Foreign Here we go. Welcome to the podcast. I'm Jack Wilson, the host with the most. The hoster with the moster. No, thank you, Autocorrect. I don't mean monster. Those days are behind me. I've moved on. Much happier now, thank you very much. We don't have monsters. Today we have an excellent guest, Alan Lightman. Wow. It's hard enough to succeed at one profession, let alone two. Let alone two very different and difficult professions. How many aspiring novelists are out there trying to make it? And here's a guy who's not only written novels, but he's won prizes for doing so. And how many among us could be a physicist working at Harvard and mit? It's a little bit like it's kind of a throwback to the 18th century or something. A Ben Franklin, maybe. Much rarer now in the age of specialization. Alan Lightman's doctoral dissertation, received from Caltech, by the way. This was after he Attended Princeton University, where he wrote a senior thesis called Design and Construction of a Gas Scintillation Detector Capable of Time of Flight Measurements of Fission Isomer decays. You know, the kind of thing we were all busy working on in our late teens and early 20s. Well, four years later at Caltech, Mr. Lightman got his PhD with a dissertation called One Time Dependent Accretion Disks around Compact Objects. Two Theoretical Frameworks for analyzing and Testing gravitation Theories. Okay, so we all know a few brainiacs, don't we? People who work on physics, maybe the neighbor or somebody. But this one. This guy was also publishing poetry and essays in places like the New Yorker and the Smithsonian. And then he went on to write novels. And along the way, he also founded a nonprofit organization whose mission is to advance a new generation of women leaders in Southeast Asia. And also along the way, he's been a postdoctoral fellow in astrophysics, and he served on the scientific advisory board of the United nations, advising the world on scientific breakthroughs and potential risks. Where does a guy like this come from? I'll ask him that. We'll ask him about his early interests. But I can also tell you some things we didn't get into, which I've learned in reading about Alan Lightman. He grew up in Memphis, Tennessee, where his mother was a dance teacher and a braille typist. Very cool. And his father owned a movie theater. If you happen to think that the name Lightman, Light man, was the perfect name for an astrophysicist like Alan, well, you're probably nodding your head again as I tell you that he's connected to four generations of Lightmans who owned movie theaters in the South. Light Man. Perfect. Perfect. Light and Sound Man, I guess, would be the. The perfect name for a movie theater owner. Okay. It started with Morris A. Lightman, who opened a theater in Alabama in 1915. Called it Malco Theaters, named after Morris A. Lightman's initials, M.A.L. eventually, that reached 33 locations in Tennessee, Arkansas, Mississippi, Missouri, Kentucky, and Louisiana. They even today employ 1,500 people, many of them working at their first job. And in 1962, Allen's father, Morris A. Lightman, was Alan's grandfather. In 1962, Allen's father, who was then one of the company heads, began quietly desegregating the theater by phasing out the quote unquote colored sections of the theater. Yes, he said, human beings can sit side by side. The world will not end because they have different skin tones. And this. This is an awkward transition, but I've got to make it. We're running out of time, in different pursuits can sit side by side in the mind of one human being, too. It's okay for a scientist to love poetry and for a poet to love science. In fact, we might need more of that at universities. We can call it the humanities. Human beings are complex. We have many sides, many differences, and many similarities, too. And one of those similarities is that we all live in the natural physical world. And another of those similarities is that we all have the capacity for wonder. And Alan Lightman has combined the two. He crossed the streams in his life, and now in his new book, which he told me all about, let's listen, okay? Joining me now is Alan Lightman, who has a PhD in physics from Caltech and who has also written numerous works of nonfiction and fiction, including the international bestseller Einstein's Dreams and the Diagnosis, a finalist for the National Book Award. Alan is currently a professor of the practice of the humanities at MIT and the host of the public television series Our Quest for Meaning in the Age of Science. He joins us today to discuss his new book, the Miraculous from the Understanding the Wonders of Nature, which explores the fascinating science underlying the natural world. Alan Lightman, welcome to the History of Literature.

[Alan Lightman]

Thank you for letting me be on your program, Jake.

[Jack Wilson]

So I'd like to start with your childhood and ask about what kind of childhood you had and what exactly was your relationship with nature?

[Alan Lightman]

I am the oldest of four boys, and my mother wanted a girl, so she kept trying and trying. My father said, that's enough. And I. I did experiments as a little boy. Some of them involved nature going out and collecting samples. I collected a sample of pond water and looked at it under my microscope to see all of the. The little microorganisms wriggling around. I like to take walks, but most of my experience with nature was. Was indoors, like building pendulums and measuring the time for them to make a swing. That was an investigation of the laws of nature rather than the fauna outside and the plants and the animals. It was investigating the rules that nature obeys. And that was done indoors?

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. Did you grow up around other adults who liked to take things apart and see how they worked or who were advising you on different scientific experiments you could perform and that kind of thing? Or were you an anomaly in your household?

[Alan Lightman]

Well, I think I was an anomaly. My mother was a dancing teacher and my father was a businessman, and I didn't really know any scientists as a child. I had one friend who was curious about nature and the physical world the way that I Was. But other than that, I would say I was an anomaly. I was just born with a certain curiosity.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, and you've also been an anomaly in another way, which is you write fiction, which I don't think is maybe not unprecedented, but certainly at the, the success that you've had in the two different endeavors certainly makes you stand out. At what point during your distinguished career as a physicist did you decide that you had something to say that you wanted to say through fiction?

[Alan Lightman]

Well, it happened much earlier than that because in childhood, in addition to getting chemistry sets and making remote control devices and rockets, I also was interested in writing. I wrote short stories and poetry as a child. So that dual interest occurred at a very young age. So that later on, when I was, after I got my PhD or even before then, I began publishing my writing even though I was spending most of my time with science. I didn't spend most of my time as a writer until I was in my mid and late 30s. But the double interest was always there.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. Did that carry over into the fiction and poetry you were reading as a child, or was that always kind of separate? I mean, were you reading science fiction or fiction by writers who were kind of exercising that, that muscle as well, or were you reading just completely different things?

[Alan Lightman]

Well, it was both. I did read science fiction. I read people like Isaac Asimov and Robert Heinlein, but I also read straight fiction. So it was both the scientific infused fiction and the non science literary fiction.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. Okay, so tell us about the new book. What were you setting out to explore in the Miraculous from the material?

[Alan Lightman]

The new book began a couple of years ago. I'm a runner, or I could say now because I've slowed down, I'm a jogger. And I was out jogging early one morning, maybe about 7am by a field. And I think it was, it was cool outside and I noticed a low mist hanging over the field and it was just gorgeous. So I sort of slowed down to admire this mist. Of course, everybody has seen mist hang over the ground or over a lake. And when I got back home, I began thinking, what causes the mist? Why is it, you know, just a thin layer above the ground and questions like that. And of course I quickly uncover the science behind that. And then I began thinking, well, there are many beautiful phenomena in nature and why don't I write a book in which I explore the science behind each of those phenomena and my personal experience with it. So the book has about 35 chapters and each chapter begins with a full page color photograph of some beautiful Visually beautiful phenomena like a spider web, the rings of Saturn, lightning, volcanoes. And then followed by an essay by me in which I give my personal experience with that phenomena and then give a. Explain the science behind it.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, it is a gorgeous book. I want to make sure I know we're in audio format, so listeners maybe can't appreciate it, but I can attest to it that those photographs really do give the book a kind of solidity. And it's a wonderful book to own and to have out and to. I mean, we use the phrase coffee table book, but I think it's something even more than that. It's kind of a book that you can read but also kind of get lost in the photographs.

[Alan Lightman]

Oh, thank you, Jack.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay, so you used the phrase spiritual materialism in describing these phenomena. What do you mean by that?

[Alan Lightman]

I consider myself a materialist in the sense that I believe that everything, both animate and inanimate matter, is made out of atoms and molecules and nothing more. And those atoms and molecules follow the rules of nature. But I also have spiritual experiences like everybody else, by which I mean, for example, feeling connected to something larger than myself, feeling a connection to other people, having communion with wild animals, the appreciation of beauty, awe and nature. And all of those experiences which I think we've all had. I group under the heading of spirituality. So I embrace the spiritual side of myself, but I'm also a materialist. I don't think that there's anything supernatural in the world. That's my personal view, and that's why I call myself a spiritual materialist.

[Jack Wilson]

And yet your book, the title of it, is the Miraculous from the Material. Some might say that miraculous and material are contradictory terms. By looking at the materiality of things and the specific laws and rules, we kind of. The scientific principles underlying those, we kind of reduce the miraculous. But yet there seems to be room in your book for keeping that idea of miraculous alive even as we explain the science underneath it. What, for you, elevates the merely material into the miraculous?

[Alan Lightman]

Well, I don't think the two are contradictory at all, although I realize that many people do. The miraculous, for me are things, experiences, images that evoke awe, where we just look at the thing and say, that is incredible. That's beautiful. That takes my spirit to a different place. And I don't think that a scientific explanation. I know, for me, a scientific explanation of that phenomena for me, does not reduce my awe at all. It just increases it. For example. I'll just give one example of that. One of the chapters in my book is about spider webs, which many of us have seen. And they're certainly beautiful to look at and delicate, and they serve a purpose. They help a spider get food. But when I began learning some of the science behind spider webs, I was totally amazed. For example, the a silk strand of spider web has twice the tensile strength of a strand of steel of the same diameter. That means if you take a silk strand of a spider web and a strand of steel of the same thickness, the same diameter, it takes twice the strength to break the spider web silk as it does the steel. And when you learn things like that, it just increases your amazement and your appreciation of spiders. So. So spiders are pretty amazing creatures and they're able to make this very, very strong silk that, that not only is strong, but it's flexible. It has those two seemingly contradictory qualities. And that kind of knowledge just increases my admiration of spiders.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. You know, it's funny that you mentioned spiders, because I can remember when I was a child and I was watching Saturday morning cartoons and they had little breaks in the middle that were kind of educational. A two minute segment or something that was presented to kids. And I remember that one of them, they were talking about NASA had asked schoolchildren to send in questions that they want things that they wanted to know about space. And they found one of the questions to be so impressive and something that they wanted to know as well, that they actually used this question as an experiment. And the question was, could a spider spin a web in space? And I remember being so jealous of the child who had sent that in, because I remember thinking, oh, that's a great question. I wish I had thought of that question. I maybe would have never thought to ask it. But it's something that's available to all of us. We all have seen spiders, we've all seen spiderwebs. And the idea that maybe gravity or removing gravity or just the conditions of being in the spacecraft might change the way the spider is able to do it. It really felt like such a small, barely noticed thing that we overlook all the time. And yet it has such richness to it.

[Alan Lightman]

Yeah, that's a marvelous question. And I wonder what happened to the kid in your class who asked that question. I'd like to know where he or she is now.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, right. Okay. While we're on the topic of miracles and the miraculous, I'm wondering, do you ever see it in physics, in an equation or an explanation for something? Do you find those to be miraculous as well, or do you limit yourself to natural phenomenon? That you might see when you look out your window.

[Alan Lightman]

Well, I want to just clarify something. You put miracle and miraculous in the same sentence. For me, a miracle is not the same as a phenomenon that's miraculous.

[Jack Wilson]

Ah, right. Okay.

[Alan Lightman]

A miracle is something that's supernatural that cannot be explained by science, either now or never or ever. So I don't believe in miracles, but I do believe in the miraculous. I would just want to distinguish between those two things. So you asked me whether I have found anything miraculous in the equations of physics. Is that the question?

[Jack Wilson]

Yes. Yep.

[Alan Lightman]

Well, I find mathematics to be beautiful. And when you've been working with mathematics, especially mathematics, to describe the physical world, which a physicist does, and you've been working with it enough and at a sufficiently advanced level, you enter a mathematical world. And it is a beautiful world. It has its own architecture and its own truths. And some of the mathematical theorems are very, very beautiful. For example, proof that the angles of a triangle add up to 180 degrees, which we all know the proof of that is very beautiful. There's an elegance to mathematics into the mathematical world. So yes, I find something spiritual in that.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. Okay, let's take a quick break and come back with more from Alan Lightman. McDonald's meets the Minecraft universe with one.

[Alan Lightman]

Of six collectibles and your choice of a Big Mac or 10 piece McNuggets with spicy nether Flame sauce.

[Jack Wilson]

Now available with a Minecraft movie meal. I participate in McDonald's for a limited time. A Minecraft movie only in theaters. This episode is brought to you by Indeed. When your computer breaks, you don't wait for it to magically start working again. You fix the problem. So why wait to hire the people your company desperately needs? Use Indeed sponsored jobs to hire top talent fast. And even better, you only pay for results. There's no need to wait. Speed up your hiring with a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Wow, this house is cute. But can I really get in the game in this economy? I do have savings and I am responsible. Ish. Ugh, I should bury it. I'm being wild. But what if I'm not being wild though? Could I actually score a kick off your home buying journey with Zillow's new buyability tool? It makes it easy to find out what you can afford so you can get off the bench and onto the playing field with confidence. Check your buyability only on Zillow. Membership means more with American Express Business Gold. Earn four times Membership Rewards points in your top two eligible spending categories every month, including eligible U.S. advertising purchases in select media and U.S. purchases at restaurants, including takeout and delivery. What are you waiting for? Get the card that flexes with your spending every month. Terms and points cap apply. Learn [e-mail] Business Gold MX Business Gold Card built for business by American Express Foreign okay Ellen, so you described your book briefly, but maybe you could talk a little bit more about how the book is organized and what the chapters cover.

[Alan Lightman]

There are about 35 chapters and each chapter begins with a full page color photograph of some visually extraordinary phenomena like lightning, like the Mandarin fish which looks like it's wearing the clothes of a Chinese Mandarin spider webs, volcanoes, paramecia, the microorganisms. I don't know whether I mentioned the rings of Saturn. Very, very weird cloud formations called mammatus clouds that look like clouds with pouches hanging underneath them. Ha Long Bay in Vietnam, which has these micro mountains jutting out of the sea. Those are some of the phenomena in the book. And after the full page color photograph of each phenomenon, I then have a short essay by me explaining my personal experience with phenomena and then explaining the science behind the phenomenon. So that's the makeup of the book.

[Jack Wilson]

And how did you gather the topics for the chapters? Did you start from scratch and wait until you noticed something and then put that on the list or are these things you've been marveling at and wondering about for some time?

[Alan Lightman]

Well, they're all things that I've been marveling at and wondering about for a long time. There were two criteria for putting one of those personal wonderings into the book. The first was it had to be visually beautiful. I mean there are many extraordinary phenomena like our kidneys that are not visually beautiful. Secondly, I had to be able to find photograph of it in the public domain that had high resolution. I, I decided very at the early the beginning of the project that to hire a photographer to go around the world and photograph all of these things would cost me a couple of hundred thousand dollars and I didn't want to spend that much money. Yeah, didn't have that much money. So I realized that I had to find these pictures in the public domain. And there are a number of websites where you can get good pictures and you don't have to pay anything or not very much for them. And of course they have to be high resolution to be printed in a book. So those were the criteria for selecting the phenomena in the book.

[Jack Wilson]

And you selected the photographs yourself or did anyone, the publisher help you?

[Alan Lightman]

No. I selected photographs myself.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay, let's go through some of the chapters to give people a flavor of what they'll hear for each one. Let's just start with the first one. Atmosphere. What's miraculous about the atmosphere?

[Alan Lightman]

Well, from space, the atmosphere is a thin blue ribbon. That's what it looks like. And of course, we couldn't have noticed that until we had the technology to send a camera up in space to photograph it. But the miraculous aspect of the atmosphere is color blue and how thin it appears from. From space. And of course, then I explain why the atmosphere is thin and why it's. It's blue. So I. That's what's miraculous about. About that. It's just it. The thinness of the atmosphere makes us realize how fragile life is on Earth because the atmosphere is the only thing that keeps us alive.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[Alan Lightman]

If there were no atmosphere, the oceans would boil away. We would be exposed to very harmful radiation from the sun, and life could not exist without an atmosphere. And yet it's very thin. It's only about six or seven miles thick. And, you know, that's relative to the whole Earth, which has a diameter of around 8,000 miles. And so, you know, eight miles out of 8,000 is one part in a thousand. And so that's why it's very thin. And of course, we seem to be doing our best to destroy the atmosphere with our carbon fuel burning and so on.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, yeah. There's not nearly as much room as it might seem for just a person standing and looking up at the sky. But when you put it in those terms, it feels almost like the thinness and delicacy of the spider web we were talking about earlier.

[Alan Lightman]

Yes, it's the same. And you're right. When you stand on the ground and look up with your naked eye, it looks like the blue of the sky goes on forever. But from space, you see that it's actually very, very thin.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay, let's move to the next chapter. And I'm not going to walk through all 35, but let's do the next one. Atoms. What do you talk about there?

[Alan Lightman]

I have a picture of that chapter begins with one of the most high resolution pictures of atoms. And of course, atoms are very, very, very tiny, and they certainly can't be seen with the naked eye. In fact, it wasn't until the last decade or so that we could get good pictures of atoms. And when you look at a very small scale like that, everything is vibrating. So the atoms are kind of fuzzy because they're moving around. And also they're quantum effects, which I won't go into, that cause it not to be completely localized. And I talk about the history of atoms, of the discovery of atoms. Of course, they were first proposed by the ancient Greeks. The ancient Greeks had nowhere near the technology to actually see atoms. It was a philosophical concept. And then I explained the technology behind this photograph of what's involved and being able to photograph something that tiny. And I won't go into that, but it's an example of ideas or proposals that began as philosophy, like atoms for the ancient Greeks, and eventually moved from the realm of philosophy to the realm of science. As we learn more and more and develop our technology more and more, there's some things that move into the realm of science. I mean, another example which is not in the book, is the origin of the universe. And of course, every culture going back as far as earliest recorded history, several thousand years ago, had some story about how the universe originated. Most of them were mythological and involve gods and so on. But in the last hundred years or so, with modern science and modern telescopes and so on and modern theories, we've been able to actually understand the origin of the universe and how old the universe is. So that's an example that something that. Something that started in the realm of theology, mythology, philosophy, and moved into the realm of science. Of course, there's some things that never move from the realm of philosophy to science. They're ethical questions, like, is it okay to kill an enemy soldier in time of war? Is it okay to steal food in order to feed your family? Those are ethical questions, and they lie outside of the domain of science. So not everything is scientific science. Although it's very, very powerful, it has its limitations.

[Jack Wilson]

Before we leave, Adams, I just wanted to mention that the photograph really is arresting with this. It's red with these yellow. I guess those are the. The nuclei. And is that. Are these hydrogen and helium? Is that why there's so many that seem to have one nucleus and. Or 2?

[Alan Lightman]

You can't see the nuclei. And the. Too small to see. A nucleus of an atom is 100,000 times smaller than the atom as a whole.

[Jack Wilson]

Oh, so each of these little circles is an atom?

[Alan Lightman]

Yes.

[Jack Wilson]

Right, right, right, yes.

[Alan Lightman]

I mean, in order to see the nucleus, you'd need technology that's far beyond what we see right now. And I can't remember what particular atoms those are. They're atoms of a crystal. So they might be silicon atoms.

[Jack Wilson]

Right.

[Alan Lightman]

And the photograph is made by firing electrons at this crystal and seeing how the electrons are scattered, how they Change direction on hitting the atoms. And if you do that with very, very high precision, you can work backwards and construct a picture of the objects that deflected the electrons. And so that's how the picture was made. But the, the haziness of them, of these atoms, the fact that you see kind of a haze for each atom, that is a result of the quantum mechanical nature of the atoms. And we Learned in the 20th century that when we go to very small scales that objects behave both as waves and as particles. That is, they're spread out over a region. They don't stay in one place. They have sort of wave like properties. And so everything gets a little bit spread out and hazy when we go to very, very small scales. And that's just the way that nature is.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. It almost does seem to capture one aspect of the miraculousness of it though, because you can discern a pattern, but it's not a perfect pattern. It's not a. You know, if you were designing it to be a pattern, you could match it up much better and line it up much better. But that gives you the sense of the sort of trembling, shimmering nature of it. And you see that it's energy and it makes you feel like it's all holding together with this energy even as it wobbles. Which feels miraculous to me that it doesn't all just fly off and disintegrate from one another.

[Alan Lightman]

Yes. Well, they're holding themselves together as all solids do, by electrical forces. And they're all attracting each other by electrical forces. And it's a crystal. This particular picture is made from a crystal. And a crystal. What defines a crystal is that the atoms in the material have a very regular spacing, very orderly. And as you pointed out, the atoms in this picture are spaced fairly evenly. But at the same time there's a haziness to each individual atom. And that's due to the wavy, like nature of material at a very small scale that we talked about earlier.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay, let's move to another topic. I wanted to ask you about false streak holes. What can you tell us about those?

[Alan Lightman]

Well, these are very, very weird formations and clouds and they look like circles or discs that have been carved out of the cloud. So you look up at a cloud and looks like that there's an open area where there's no cloud that is, that is perfectly round like a disk. And some people, when they first saw these things, thought they were flying saucers because they're so strange looking.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[Alan Lightman]

And they're caused by airplanes going through a cloud. That has super saturated water in it. And super saturated water is water that's at a temperature below freezing, but it doesn't condense from gas to liquid because it needs some kind of seed, something to start the condensation process going. And that's called supersaturated. And when an airplane goes through a cloud that has supersaturated gaseous water in it, in the right conditions, the wing of the airplane provides the seeds. They're ice crystals that come off the wing of the airplane, and those ice crystals provide seeds to make the supersaturated water condense. And when it condenses from gas to liquid, it's heavier because liquids are more dense than gases. And it drops out of the cloud, leaving a hole. And that pole is what is called the fall streak pole. I don't know where the fall streak comes from, but it's very, very striking. I've never seen one myself because they don't occur that often, but they're caused only by airplanes going through supersaturated clouds. So before the era of the airplane, which had been, I guess, before the Wright brothers in early 1900s, there were no false streak holes because they're totally human, Made by airplanes going through supersaturated clouds.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. And the photo that you found for this, it seems to be, I guess it's either at sunrise or sunset, and it's beautiful with the pinks and the orange, and yet this perfectly blue disk like figure that kind of. It does. I think some of you said that these are also sometimes called hole punch clouds, and that is kind of what it looks like is something that has punched a hole in the otherwise pretty solid state of clouds.

[Alan Lightman]

Yes. And as you mentioned, the photograph is very pretty, and that was certainly one of the criteria that I demanded in order to select a phenomenon for the book, that the photograph had to be beautiful. I imagine there are probably some pictures of fall streak clouds that are not nearly as. Or fall streak holes that are not as pretty as that one. But you're right, it looks like it's taken it either early in the morning or late in the afternoon. Probably late in the afternoon.

[Jack Wilson]

Mm. I know the answer to this question because I have your book, But I wanted to hear your response and share it with listeners. Some might be asking, what are we getting from the pros here? What are we getting from a book? Shouldn't we just all go outside and touch the grass and feel the wind on our cheeks and go visit the grand canyon and experience these. The miraculousness of the natural world in person, why read about them?

[Alan Lightman]

Well, that's a great question. And I would say definitely it's not an either or situation. We should go outside and feel the wind on our cheek and touch the grass. We should do that. And of course, our modern lifestyle, where we all live in cities, makes it. Not all of us, but many of us live in cities. It makes it harder to do that, to go outside and actually experience nature. But I would argue that understanding what causes the false streak holes and the spread of webs and so on and it. It adds a layer of appreciation. When you go to a concert, let's say classical music, and you listen to the music, you have program notes that tell you the history of that composer, something about the particular times that they lived in, where the piece was first performed. You get all of that information and it enhances the experience for me, and I think it does for a lot of people, but maybe not everybody, maybe some people want to go and just listen to the music and not read anything about it. But for me, understanding the conditions in which the piece was composed and understanding the life of the composer and understanding how it was received by the public, that all just adds to my enjoyment of the musical piece. So I know that's not a great explanation, but. But that's an analogy. But I think that understanding the science behind these phenomena. And of course, as I said, understanding the science does not substitute for experiencing the phenomena itself. But it's not an either or that understanding the science behind it or how it came about just enhances the experience. The experience is emotional. You know, when we go outside and we look up and see the stars or we have the reaction to a spider web, that's an emotional experience. When we understand the science behind them or understand how they were created, that's more of an intellectual experience. And I think that our emotions and our intellect go together. That they don't compete with each other usually. And they are part of a whole, they're part of us. Human beings that have both an intellectual capacity and an emotional capacity.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. You may have just answered my last question already. I think we are definitely knocking at the door of the answer here. But I noticed that your chapter list is alphabetical until the final chapter. And that chapter is titled Humans. Why did you put the chapter on humans last?

[Alan Lightman]

Well, first of all, I think that humans, we human beings are extraordinary. What we do, what we're able to create. And I think that. That we're just as extraordinary as spider webs and the rings of Saturn and atoms and ball streak holes. We are extraordinary. And the reason I put it last is because obviously, it's somewhat different than the other chapters. The other chapters are about phenomena that we observe, and we humans are the observers. So I thought that there was a distinction there. And I also wanted, you know, the humans to sort of stand out, because that's us.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[Alan Lightman]

And a lot of people take our powers and our creations for granted. But, in fact, when you think about what we have been able to do and building the. The pyramids of Giza and writing Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, building cities like Paris and New York and Singapore, developing antibiotics and the theory of relativity, when you think of all of the things that we've accomplished, we're pretty amazing. And so I thought that we humans had a place in this book.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. Would you put any works of literature into those categories?

[Alan Lightman]

Oh, absolutely. Of, you know, of amazing things that we've created. Sure, sure. Shakespeare's plays in the Indian mythology, Ramayana, and so many, many other things. Yes, absolutely.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay. Well, the book is called the Miraculous from the Understanding the Wonders of Nature. And like I mentioned, it's just a gorgeous book. It's a wonderful book to own and would make a nice gift. We have Mother's Day and Father's Day coming up. Alan Lightman, thank you so much for joining me on the history of literature.

[Alan Lightman]

Thank you, Jack. I should have realized it to include literature, since the title of your podcast is the History of Literature. So forgive me for.

[Jack Wilson]

Well, that's what I'm here for.

[Alan Lightman]

Yeah.

[Jack Wilson]

I was not kidding about this being a great book for Mother's Day and Father's Day. By the way, if you are often pestering your parents to read more, suspecting that they smile and nod and then don't actually get around to reading the book you've been urging on them or buying for them. Well, fear not. This one has gorgeous pictures, and the text comes in easily digestible bites. Anyone and everyone would love to get this book for Christmas, for a birthday, and for those special days coming up in the spring where we celebrate mums and dads. Okay, so this is a bit of a departure. Usually, I don't run the my last book from an author in the same episode as the main interview with that author. But in this case, I thought it might make sense as the conversation that Alan Lightman and I had flowed naturally from one interview to the next. So after that conversation that you just heard, I asked Alan an additional special question. Okay. I'm joined now by Alan Lightman, physicist and novelist and the author of the miraculous, from the understanding the wonders of nature. Alan, this question comes from a listener who asks, what do you want your last book to be? This will be the last book you will ever read. You can either choose one that exists or describe one that has not yet been written.

[Alan Lightman]

Well, I'm thinking that the last book that I'll ever read, I'm probably on my deathbed. I'm assuming now that I'll. That I'm not going to have a sudden heart attack.

[Jack Wilson]

You have a little bit of warning.

[Alan Lightman]

Yeah, I have a little bit of warning, which I think most of us do. And I know that I'm dying and will be gone soon. And I would like to read a book that helps me prepare for death, that helps me put life into perspective and see death as a part of life, as a natural transition. There are a lot of Buddhist books that do this. In fact, in Buddhism, you're supposed to think about your death every day, and that's a little bit too much for me. But I do think that the Buddhists have a very good understanding of death as a part of life and about making that transition. So I would probably want to read a Buddhist book or a book that helped me psychologically prepare for making that transition from life to death.

[Jack Wilson]

I had encountered that I was fortunate enough to travel through Tibet when I was in my early 20s, and I came across some of the Tibetan books that would help people prepare for making that transition. And I remember thinking that as well, that it was a different way of thinking about death for me, that it was something you could get ready for, it was something that you could practice, and it was something to take very seriously at that moment, that it was an opportunity almost.

[Alan Lightman]

Yes. Well, of course, the most famous Tibetan book about that is the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. While we're on the subject, the Buddhists, I think almost all Buddhists believe in rebirth, that your consciousness or some part of it is transferred to another living being after you're dead. That part of Buddhism I don't personally subscribe to, but all of the rest of Buddhism, I think, is very insightful. And there's a lot of material in the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying about preparing for death that does not require belief in an afterlife or in rebirth.

[Jack Wilson]

And it's almost like Pascal's Wager was my impression of it, where it felt like the things that they were telling me to do, like to kind of release anger and to kind of put my soul into a more pure state and to kind of feel more love. And feel more acceptance and feel more tolerance. And I kind of remember thinking, well, even if this doesn't have any kind of purpose to it, or if it's just human invented, what could be wrong with doing that? I mean, it felt like those would all be just good common sense suggestions and there'd be no harm done by trying to follow some of those precepts.

[Alan Lightman]

Yes, I agree with you totally. And of course, another important belief of Buddhism is gratitude. I don't think we show in our modern world, we don't show gratitude nearly enough. But being grateful to the people who have helped you along your way in your life, that is also a way to come to peace, to have peace, which, of course, during the end.

[Jack Wilson]

I don't think I've probably asked this question two or three hundred times at this point, and I don't think I've ever said this before, but your book, the Miraculous from the Understanding the Wonders of Nature. One could make the case that that's a pretty good book for someone to have as their last book. The way that it. The photographs remind you of the beauties of the earth and the way you have a kind of appreciation for the science underlying the natural phenomenon and just the triumph of human beings as well in understanding those phenomenon and the way that it gives you a kind of spiritual feel, no matter what your religious beliefs are. I think people should have their last book, but they should also have that book nearby.

[Alan Lightman]

Well, thank you, Jack. If you're going to have that book on your deathbed. I know that sounds grim. I would buy it early because it might be out of print by the time that we're all pass away.

[Jack Wilson]

Buy it early and buy it for all of your friends.

[Alan Lightman]

Yeah, yeah. Go to your bookstore right now and get the book. Put it in the same place.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, exactly. You don't want. You don't want to be caught shorthanded at the moment when you're most in need.

[Alan Lightman]

Yes, that's right.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay. Alan Lightman, thank you so much for joining me on the History of Literature.

[Alan Lightman]

Thank you, Jack. It's great to be on your podcast. Very good conversation and good questions that you asked. Thank you.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay, there we go. That's going to do it for this episode of the History of Literature. My thanks to Alan Lightman for joining me. We've got some exciting episodes in the works, including critic and critical thinker, John Ruskin, Dante, Emily Dickinson. Boy, two heavy hitters there. Hard to get deeper or. Or to get more intelligence coming out of very different kinds of poetry. But that's two episodes on the horizon and more about Miracula, this time coming from ancient Rome and Greece. We'll see Emerson struggling with his anti slavery position, so emblematic of America. We identify the problem and then we wrestle with what to do about it. What approach will work best, what will be effective. Sometimes that can be necessary, and sometimes it's paralyzing, and sometimes we can manage to overcome it. We'll see all of that at play with Emerson, and we'll have Daisy from the Great Gatsby retold as a poet in the 1990s, and three queer misfits plopped into the middle of a story straight out of Edith Wharton. Please do stay tuned for all of that. I'm Jack Wilson. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time. If you're feeling overwhelmed by the news cycle, you are not alone. I'm Emma Varvalukas and along with Progress Network founder Zachary Carabell, I host what Could Go Right, a podcast that looks beyond the headlines to uncover progress happening in the world, even in difficult times. Each week we sit down with experts to discuss today's biggest challenges. The without ignoring the hard stuff, we bring nuance, insight and a forward looking perspective to help make sense of the current moment. Fight the urge to do scroll. Tune in to what Could Go Right instead. Wherever you get your podcasts hey everyone, it's Danielle from National Park After Dark, the chart topping podcast that's received over 42 million downloads. If you love the great outdoors or are just morbidly curious about what can go wrong outdoor there, this is the show for you. Each week on National Park After Dark, my co host and I dive into the darker side of nature. Epic survival stories, tragic history, animal encounters, and yes, even some paranormal encounters. But it's not all chills and thrills. We also share inspiring tales and our passion for protecting the wild places we all love. So lace up your hiking boots and take a walk on the dark side of the wilderness with us on National Park After Dark.