Podcast Summary: The History of Literature

Episode: 697 Race in European Fairy Tales (with Kimberly Lau) | My Last Book with Rolf Hellebust
Host: Jack Wilson
Guest: Kimberly Lau, Professor of Literature at the University of California, Santa Cruz
Release Date: April 21, 2025

Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of The History of Literature, host Jack Wilson engages in a profound conversation with Kimberly Lau, a distinguished Professor of Literature specializing in fairy tales, monster studies, and popular culture. The discussion delves into the intricate relationship between race and European fairy tales, exploring how racial representations have evolved and been embedded within these timeless stories.

The Evolution of Race in European Fairy Tales

Initial Observations

Jack Wilson opens the dialogue by highlighting the predominantly white imagery in European fairy tales, referencing Einstein's appreciation for these narratives. He remarks:

"There's something ineluctably compelling about fairy tales... they've been used by authorities to set societal norms, define heroes and villains, and create national or tribal identities."
[01:07] Jack Wilson

Kimberly Lau's Insights

Kimberly Lau responds by tracing the transformation from the racially diverse early collections to the stark whiteness prevalent today. She explains:

"We got to the white world of the fairy tale from this very rich world in Basile's collection through a lot of metaphor and literary borrowing... the explicit racial designations from Basile's become increasingly metaphorized."
[19:00] Kimberly Lau

Lau emphasizes that the shift towards whiteness in fairy tales wasn't merely accidental but a product of evolving racial ideologies influenced by geographical and cultural changes over centuries.

Case Studies: Bluebeard and Little Red Riding Hood

Bluebeard

The conversation transitions to the tale of Bluebeard, a story laden with racial undertones. Jack Wilson summarizes the plot and its moral implications:

"Perrault's version has two morals: one criticizing female curiosity and the other suggesting that modern husbands wouldn't be as violent as Bluebeard."
[49:51] Jack Wilson

Kimberly Lau adds depth by discussing the racialization of Bluebeard over time:

"Bluebeard in the late 18th and 19th century was represented as a Turk with orientalized traits... associating his blue beard with dark complected men."
[56:13] Kimberly Lau

Little Red Riding Hood

Jack Wilson contrasts Charles Perrault's and the Brothers Grimm's versions of Little Red Riding Hood, highlighting their differing morals and narrative outcomes. Lau provides an anthropological perspective:

"An anthropologist found that the 'path of pins' refers to specific cultural practices among young women apprenticing as seamstresses, framing the tale as a coming-of-age story."
[62:55] Kimberly Lau

She further explores global variations, such as the Asian version Lom Popo, demonstrating the universal yet culturally distinct nature of this tale.

Racialization and Embedded Ideologies

Intentionality vs. Societal Influence

Jack poses a critical question about whether the racial aspects in fairy tales stem from individual authorial agendas or broader societal shifts. Lau responds:

"It's probably a combination of both... for example, the Grimms edited their tales with antisemitic and anti-black biases in mind, aligning with prevailing racial ideologies."
[25:40] Kimberly Lau

Fairy Tales as Tools of Hegemony

Lau discusses how the whiteness in fairy tales reinforces societal hegemony:

"The accumulation of these ideas over time embeds whiteness into the very structure of fairy tales, making it difficult to alter representation without addressing deeper ideological constructs."
[26:55] Kimberly Lau

She also references how the Nazis exploited Grimms' tales to propagate nationalistic and racist ideologies, underscoring the potent influence of these narratives.

Alternatives and Global Perspectives

Arabian Nights as a Comparative Framework

Jack inquires about alternative fairy tale traditions, such as Arabian Nights, and their potential impact on Western fairy tales. Lau explains the complexities introduced by Orientalism:

"The Arabian Nights as known in the West are heavily framed by Orientalist interpretations, embedding another layer of racialization that parallels the European fairy tale tradition."
[31:20] Kimberly Lau

Andrew Lang's Colored Fairy Books

The discussion moves to Andrew Lang's Colored Fairy Books, which Lau critiques as instruments of imperialist agenda:

"These collections were edited to appeal to white readers, often diluting or altering authentic narratives from diverse cultures to fit imperialistic and racialist ideals."
[35:05] Kimberly Lau

Lau argues that such works perpetuated stereotypes and justified colonial dominance by portraying non-European cultures as primitive or savage.

Modern Implications and Resistance to Change

Representation and Ideological Structures

Jack draws parallels between traditional fairy tales and modern adaptations by companies like Disney. Lau acknowledges efforts to diversify but cautions about inherent structural biases:

"Whiteness is embedded in the structure of many fairy tales... simply changing the actors doesn't dismantle the underlying ideologies associating goodness with white characters and villainy with others."
[26:55] Kimberly Lau

Cultural Resistance

Lau observes the strong resistance to altering traditional narratives:

"There’s tremendous backlash against changes perceived as 'woke' in classic tales, reflecting broader cultural wars over representation and ideological control."
[72:01] Kimberly Lau

She hopes that education and critical analysis can gradually foster a more nuanced understanding and appreciation of diverse representations in literature.

Guest Segment: Rolf Hellebust on Russian Literature

The episode concludes with a brief segment featuring Rolf Hellebust discussing Russian literary masters. Though not the primary focus, this segment touches upon the enduring legacy and impact of Russian literature in the global literary canon.

Notable Quotes

• Jack Wilson:
  "The Earth keeps spinning at the incredible rate of 1,000 miles an hour. So dawn is on its way."
  [01:07]

• Kimberly Lau:
  "The idea that white characters are inherently good and others are villains is part of the structural hegemony of whiteness in Western culture."
  [26:55]

• Kimberly Lau:
  "These fairy tales not only reflect but also perpetuate the societal norms and racial ideologies of their times."
  [19:00]

• Jack Wilson:
  "The fairy tale has really mastered us in a lot of ways."
  [68:57]

Conclusion

This episode of The History of Literature provides a compelling examination of the intersection between race and European fairy tales. Through the expertise of Kimberly Lau, listeners gain a deeper understanding of how these narratives have been shaped by and continue to influence societal perceptions of race and identity. The discussion underscores the importance of critical engagement with traditional literature to uncover and challenge embedded ideologies.

Resources Mentioned:

• Kimberly Lau's Book: Specters of the Race and the Development of the European Fairy Tale
• Angela Carter's Adaptations: The Bloody Chamber

Find Out More: Visit historyofliterature.com and follow on Facebook. Support the show via Patreon or donate at historyofliterature.com/donate.