710 Weird and Wonderful Stories from Ancient Greece and Rome (with Paul Chrystal) | A BIG ANNOUNCEMENT | Two Listeners Follow Their Dream (And Create Something Amazing)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The History of Literature – Episode 710

Title: Weird and Wonderful Stories from Ancient Greece and Rome (with Paul Chrystal) | A BIG ANNOUNCEMENT | Two Listeners Follow Their Dream (And Create Something Amazing)
Host: Jacke Wilson
Guest: Paul Chrystal
Release Date: June 23, 2025
Podcast Network: The Podglomerate

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Introduction and Episode Overview

In Episode 710 of The History of Literature, host Jacke Wilson dives into a multifaceted conversation that explores obscure and fascinating tales from the ancient worlds of Greece and Rome. The episode is structured to provide listeners with a blend of historical insights, personal stories from listeners, and exciting announcements about future endeavors related to the podcast.

Key Topics Covered:

1. Listener Success Story: Chaz and Katie Ross's journey with Copperhead Press.
2. Big Announcement: Launching a literary tour through England.
3. Guest Interview: Paul Chrystal discusses his latest book, Weird and Wonderful Stories of Ancient Greece and Rome.

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Listener Success Story: Copperhead Press

Jacke introduces a heartfelt segment featuring Chaz and Katie Ross, listeners who turned their passion into reality by founding Copperhead Press. Their story is a testament to pursuing one's dreams, regardless of the challenges faced.

Highlights:

• Chaz's Early Struggles: Overcoming severe food allergies and finally enjoying a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in his twenties after outgrowing his allergy.
• Copperhead Press: Founded by Chaz, a junior high school custodian, and Katie, his wife. They meticulously craft exquisite hardcover editions of classic works, such as James Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.
• Craftsmanship: Detailed descriptions of their bookmaking process, including handmade paper and hand-stitched bindings, emphasizing the artisanal quality of their products.
• Community Support: With orders from 19 states, Copperhead Press is gaining traction, and the Rosses are expanding their family with their first child.

Notable Quote:

“[Chaz] wrote me years ago, and I shared it with you listeners. He was the worker who wanted to read more, but he was so tired at the end of the day that he would fall asleep when he tried to read. And so he would listen to the podcast, get a little literature fix that way, because he could do that while he was working.”
— Jack Wilson [14:30]

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Big Announcement: The History of Literature Tour

Jacke shares an exhilarating announcement about an upcoming History of Literature Podcast Tour through Literary England in collaboration with John Shores Travel. This exclusive tour invites a select group of listeners to explore the rich literary heritage of England.

Details:

• Itinerary: Starting in London, the tour will include visits to iconic literary sites associated with celebrated authors, such as Shakespeare, Dickens, and Austen.
• Experience: Emphasis on quality over quantity, ensuring ample time for exploration, conversations, and interactions with past podcast guests.
• Participants: Limited spots available for an intimate experience, featuring stays in comfortable accommodations, gourmet meals, and engaging literary events.
• Interactive Elements: Literature-themed events, Q&A sessions with experts, and opportunities to mingle with fellow literature enthusiasts.

Call to Action: Listeners interested in joining the tour are encouraged to express their interest via email at jackwilsonauthormail.com or through the podcast’s website at historyofliterature.com.

Notable Quote:

“We are trying something new. Speaking of putting yourself out there, sticking your neck out, a history of literature podcast tour through literary England. We're doing it.”
— Jack Wilson [20:15]

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Guest Interview: Paul Chrystal on "Weird and Wonderful Stories of Ancient Greece and Rome"

Introduction to Paul Chrystal: Paul Chrystal, a prolific author with over 180 published works, joins Jacke to discuss his latest book, Weird and Wonderful Stories of Ancient Greece and Rome. Chrystal is renowned for uncovering lesser-known facets of ancient literature and history.

Discussion Points:

1. Background and Inspiration:

   • Jacke: “I should change the title of the podcast to the History of Paul Chrystal.”
   • Paul Chrystal: Shares his childhood fascination with books and how his education in Latin and Greek at grammar school sparked his interest in classical literature.

2. Defining Paradoxography:

   • Paul Chrystal: “Paradoxography is basically, obviously the word paradox comes from that, and there's an element of that in it. Something that is true but appears not to be true or the opposite should be true.”
   • He explains that paradoxography encompasses the miraculous, unbelievable, and astonishing stories that diverge from the mainstream historical narratives.

3. Selection Criteria for the Book:

   • Paul Chrystal: Emphasizes selecting stories that are odd, irregular, or simply unbelievable, drawing parallels to modern tabloid journalism but rooted in ancient sources.
   • Notable Quote: “They wrote it. And what we do know from a guy called Owl of Jellius who wrote a book called Attic Nights, which was a very good title because it basically could embrace anything and probably did.”
     — Paul Chrystal [33:35]

4. Examples of Stories:

   • Science and Early Science Fiction: Romans exploring space travel and rockets in first and second-century writings.
   • Weird Sexual Practices: Discussions on topics like necrophilia, bestiality, and gender reassignment in ancient societies.
   • Magic and Superstitions: Insight into the pervasive belief in magic, werewolves, voodoo, and cannibalism among Greeks and Romans.
   • Everyday Oddities: Ancient Romans' views on parking, domestic abuse, and toilet etiquette.

5. Survival of Ancient Texts:

   • Paul Chrystal: Many paradoxographical works were lost to wars, famines, and cultural shifts, surviving only through references in other works.
   • Notable Quote: “A lot more of what was published is lost than that which has survived. But if you go into a university library… you'll find this stuff either as fragments or as references.”
     — Paul Chrystal [44:44]

6. Relevance to Modern Audiences:

   • Paul Chrystal: Highlights that many issues from ancient times, such as racism, slavery, and domestic abuse, remain pertinent today.
   • Notable Quote: “These guys, classical authors, wrote about waste management… they knew about climate change, they knew about irrigation to a great extent.”
     — Paul Chrystal [54:16]

7. Final Reflections:

   • Emphasizes that history is full of forgotten stories that can offer fresh perspectives and lessons for contemporary society.
   • Suggests that our interpretation of ancient texts evolves with cultural changes and technological advancements, such as artificial intelligence.

Notable Quote:

“Nothing's new in this world or any other one.”
— Paul Chrystal [54:16]

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Jacke expressing gratitude to Paul Chrystal and the Rosses, encouraging listeners to engage with Copperhead Press and consider participating in the upcoming literary tour. The blend of historical exploration, personal triumphs, and exciting future plans makes Episode 710 a compelling listen for literature enthusiasts.

Key Takeaways:

• The importance of preserving and celebrating lesser-known literary works.
• Inspirational listener stories that highlight the impact of passion and perseverance.
• Engaging opportunities for the community to connect through literary travel experiences.

Closing Remark:

“You can't assume that we know everything. We don't. We know nothing. I suppose in one respect.”
— Paul Chrystal [54:47]

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Additional Resources:

• Paul Chrystal’s Book: Weird and Wonderful Stories of Ancient Greece and Rome – Explore the unconventional aspects of ancient civilizations.
• Copperhead Press: Visit copperheadpress.com to view their handcrafted books.
• Podcast Tour Information: Stay updated via historyofliterature.com for details on the upcoming literary tour.

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Stay Connected: Follow The History of Literature on Facebook and support the show through Patreon or donate here.

Transcript

[Jack Wilson]

The History of Literature Podcast is a member of the podglomerate Network and Lit Hub Radio. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two factor authentication, strong passwords and a VPN, you try to be in control of how your info is protected. But many other places also have it and they might not be as careful. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second second for threats. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for 40% off. Terms apply. Prices keep going up these days it.

[Paul Kristol]

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[Jack Wilson]

Only goes up going up.

[Paul Kristol]

But not at Metro. We're pushing the down button.

[Jack Wilson]

Going down, we've lowered prices. Get one line of 5G data for $40, period.

[Paul Kristol]

That's 20% lower and you get a free SAMP Samsung by default when you bring your number only at Metro.

[Jack Wilson]

Five year guarantee on eligible plans. Exclusion supplies. See website for details. Not available. Fab Metro with T Mobile in the past six months Tax supplies hello. Today on the podcast, the man who dives deep into lesser known works from the ancient world and emerges with some fascinating things about who those people were, what they believed and what they did. Plus, we hear from a listener and his wife who are following their dream with some incredible results. And we have a preview of our big announcement, or one of the two big announcements. Maybe three big announcements, depending on how you count. Excitement is brewing here at the History of Literature Podcast and you can be part of it in a big way. All that today on the History of Literature. Okay, here we go. Welcome to the podcast. Let's do things in this order. Oh, wait. I'm Jack Wilson, by the way, the host of the show. Glad you're here. I'm interrupting myself because there's no one else here to do it. This host isn't going to just interrupt itself. Well, I guess he is. That reminds me of something I thought of the other day. I was going to turn this into a joke, but maybe it's better if I just tell it to you straight because it gives you some insight into the Jack Wilson mind. I was thinking the other day that I believe in reincarnation. It's not something deep, deep within me, the way one's childhood religion might be, but I do believe in reincarnation. I want to believe in it. It makes sense to me. And I thought my critics would probably say that I'm wasting my time believing in such a thing that I'D be better off saving all that time for believing in something else, some other theory of the afterlife, perhaps. Or maybe I should just stick to things that I can prove to be true with my senses and so on. But I thought, in response to these imaginary critics, I thought, hey, I gotta be me. I mean, you only live once. You only live once. Let me believe in reincarnation if I want to, because you only live once. So you can see it's not easy being Jack Wilson with a mind that moves as slowly as mine does and then suddenly turns on me like a snapping turtle. It's snapping turtles all the way down for old Jack Wilson. But let's do the order. That's what I was getting at. We'll do the order that we set forth in the intro, a preview of our author guest today. And then we'll tell the story of the listener following his dream. And then our big news that's in all caps, big news about the podcast and things we've got brewing. And then we will have our guest, Paul Kristol, come out for a discussion of miraculous things and ideas and weird ideas, superstitions, all that stuff coming out of the ancient world. Okay, the best preview I can give you comes from the preface to Paul's book, which is called Miracula Weird and Wonderful Stories of Ancient Greece and Rome. Now, you might think that this is someone who has gone through the classic texts, Herodotus, for example, who has plenty of travelogue pieces and nearly anthropological stories to convey. As we've talked about before, you throw in some Plutarch and other biographers, historians, you select all the little oddities, the peccadillos, the idiosyncrasies and so on, and we can celebrate the curious lives and habits of the ancients, which would be a great book. But what Paul's done is something even better. He hasn't just gathered up all the old familiar chestnuts. He's gone into all these texts from ancient Greece and Rome that aren't classics, and he's found some new chestnuts. If you're like me and you've dabbled in ancient literature, you might be at least a little familiar with some of the crazier things that you hear in Herodotus, let's say. But a dabbler isn't going to get to the texts that Paul gets to. These are books that are barely known often. Well, anyway, I referred to a paragraph. This is by Philip Metisak, who's who wrote the preface to the book. This paragraph stood out to me he says one of the strengths of this book is that Paul is not only well informed about the ancient world in general, but he has an astonishing knowledge of texts that were probably obscure and recondite even at the time they were published hundreds or thousands of years ago. Much of this material is often dry, poorly written and frankly boring. However, it also contains unexpected passages that cause us to gasp, guffaw, or simply shake our heads in wonder. The joy of this book is that Paul has done for you the hard work of extracting the gems from the sludge. He presents his results here in page after page of incidents, anecdotes and opinions which are sometimes amusing, sometimes outre or horrifying, and sometimes nuts. End quote. There we go. Instead of limiting himself to Herodotus and Homer, Paul's been looking at books like on the Nature of the Non Existent or the Type of Women who Ought to Be Taken as wives, or 40 marvelous things about Water and Delayed Death Syndrome. These are all books. There's lots of these books, almost like pamphlets, how to manuals, guides, things like that. We'll talk about that with Paul. What he dug into. But they give us all these weird beliefs and practices. We see what science meant to them and medicine and sex and the body, how they viewed toilet etiquette and parenting and other societies and pets, hair pulling, parking. Did you ever think you would learn anything interesting about what the ancient Greeks and Romans thought about parking or hairy women or the dark arts? We will hear all of that from Paul, all about it, in a few minutes. Before that, here's the story of a listener. Fantastic story. Let me start with this. I once knew a boy with severe food allergies, which were so bad when he was little that he had to eat his school lunch at a table by himself. And not surprisingly, one of these allergies was to peanuts. He could have no milk, no shellfish, no. Lots of other stuff were crossed off his list and definitely no peanuts and no peanut butter. So all those years as a child, he's heard about the famous peanut butter and jelly sandwich and he never got to try one because he could die if he had one. Well, he grew up, he went to college, he kept getting tested, and then he found one year in his early 20s that he had outgrown his peanut allergy. He was no longer allergic, so he ate a PB and J. How was it? I said, and I thought maybe he'd say, well, you know, a little overrated. He didn't quite get the hype. It's kind of a kid's food. He was in his early 20s and maybe a little old for a PB and J, and he said it was really good. Imagine how that first peanut butter and jelly sandwich must have tasted after waiting all that time when you have something in your mouth or you hear some music or you watch some show and you just think, yes, this is it. This is the one. This cannot be beat. I didn't know I was waiting for this, but I was. Well, I had that feeling a few days ago. A box arrived on my doorstep out of the blue. Not one that I had ordered. Emma Wilson, producer of the show, thought it was for her, and she tore into it, so I didn't get the full unboxing effect. By the time I got it, it was stripped of its careful and handsome packaging. It looked like it had been shredded by a badger's claws. I guess she was eager. Anyway, I had to recreate the careful and handsome packaging by hand so I could get some of the effect. But I didn't do that for a while, because first I just wanted to hold the contents of the box, this thing, in my hands. It was a book. James Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. And it is probably the most beautiful object in my house, maybe the most beautiful thing I have ever owned. It's a hardcover book, but that doesn't do it justice. It's not just like a hardcover book. It comes in a slip case that's also not like a slip case. Slip cases, in my experience, are usually thin cardboard, sometimes a little shiny. There's a little heft to them, but mostly they're pretty flimsy, maybe a step up from an envelope. This is like a thick box with a slight fuzzy feeling to it. Closer to luggage or maybe a jewelry box than paper. Really handsome luggage, let's say a beautiful blue color. The perfect blue. This sounds like an ad for this, but it's not. I'm not being paid for this. This is my honest opinion. It's got this picture of Joyce on it, and it feels solid and well thought out. This is all before you even open the book. You can gaze at the slip case itself as if it were a painting. And the book fits in it perfectly. It slides out perfectly. Not too snug, but not too loose. And the book, I said it's not like any other hardcover that I've ever had. The book is a hardcover with a leather calfskin spine and a solid board with this beautiful floral design. And inside the book is handmade paper. Actually, did I say Leather, calfskin, spine. I think it's spice suede cloth. There's a description of how the book is made, and it's got all of these terms. It's like when you go skiing or something, or play golf and there's all this equipment and gear, fly fishing. You think, oh, this is a whole world. It's a whole world that I admire and enjoy, but I know nothing about. That's what this bookmaking is like. There's all these descriptions of these terms. All I know is that the book works. The book works. The book, it's handmade paper. It's stitched by hand. You can see the long blue thread inside. The whole thing is stitched. The whole thing is handmade. The whole thing is like holding an original work of art in your hand. I don't own many original works of art, but this is what it's like seeing them in the museum, where you can see Van Gogh's brushstrokes up close, or Monet's. Except this. You get to hold this in your hand and there are no crowds, and you get to read it. The type is perfect. The pages are perfect, the images are perfect. It's like a tribute to bookmaking, a shrine. And it was made by. This is wonderful. The people who made it. It was made by a junior high school janitor and his wife. How incredible is that? Maybe I should say custodian. A custodian at a junior high school and his wife made this book. And that wasn't his only job. At nights, he worked as a waiter at a Mexican restaurant, and he was selling comic books out of the trunk of his SUV and washing windows. And here's the part that makes me tear up a little bit. He was listening to the History of Literature podcast. How incredible is that, people? When you put yourself out there, things happen. Things happen. You have a. A reach that you don't expect. You don't know where these things are going to go. When you do a podcast or write something or do something, sometimes happy surprises come your way. He wrote me years ago, and I shared it with you listeners. He was the worker who wanted to read more, but he was so tired at the end of the day that he would fall asleep when he tried to read. And so he would listen to the podcast, get a little literature fix that way, because he could do that while he was working. His name is Chaz Ross, and he and his wife Katie are the owners and operators of Copperhead Press. Check that out. I should warn you, these books are not cheap, but they're also not disposable and they're the best book you will own or the best book you could possibly give to a friend or a loved one. So check out what they're doing at Copperhead Press. I would especially recommend to you the about page on their website where they show the process of each step of their book making process, which is fascinating, especially the sewing. You see Katie sewing these things up with this long blue thread. She's wearing gloves to be especially, you know, delicate with the books. As they say on the website. The sewing is laborious, but the result is worth it. A hand sewn book opens beautifully. This stuff matters. They sew the end pages, they make the leather, the spine, labels, everything, everything. It's unbelievable. They've had orders so far from 19 states, so. And they have a little map on their website with the states. Let's see if we can help them color in the map. I'm looking at you. Pennsylvania and Michigan. I know there are book lovers there. And Minnesota. Don't let Utah and Arizona and Alabama make you guys look bad. Fill in the states. Oh, and Chaz and Katie, trust me, I've been talking a little more about Chaz because he was the emailer. But if you see the pictures of Katie at work, you'll know that she's pretty instrumental to making these things look and feel as good as they do. And now Chaz and Katie are expecting their first child. Bravo. They've made these beautiful and perfect things for the rest of us and now they get to have one that's just for them. That is Copperhead Press. Look at the books there, but make sure you click on that About Us page to see the process. Congratulations to Chaz and Katie Ross and many thanks for the gift. Moving on. I told you that we have some news here at the History of Literature podcast and we do. We are trying something new. Speaking of putting yourself out there, sticking your neck out, a history of literature podcast tour through literary England. We're doing it. We have joined forces with a travel company, John Shores Travel, to offer this to a small group of lucky people that could be you. We are still working out the itinerary, which I will share with you soon, probably at the start of July, but I believe we'll be starting in London and traveling a few places outside of London, visiting some famous literary sites of the most celebrated authors and meeting up with some past guests of the show along the way. That's the plan. And I've talked to some people and they are in. They're all in. I'm not going to tell you their names because we've got to confirm all this. But it looks like it's going to be a really fun tour. It's not a whirlwind tour. It's not one of those where you get on a bus and they drive you around to 10 sites in a day and they say, hey, jump out of the bus. Go look at that grave. There's famous writers buried over there. Come back. Be back in 10 minutes, please. No, this is going to be a tour based on quality of experience with time to spend with me. Jack, I'll be there. And Emma Wilson, she's coming too. My wife and the show's behind the scenes producer and a group of your fellow listeners to the podcast. And we'll be staying in some nice places and eating some nice food and enjoying some nice conversations and touring some places where beloved authors lived and wrote and had their books inspired. And it's some other mm that's a fun thing to do. Inspirational, energizing. But here's what you're going to get on this tour. We're also going to have some literature related events, history of literature, podcast style. That's what we're putting together. Talking to some experts, talking to some wonderful people along the way and you get to participate. We'll have Q and A sessions, we'll have meeting and mingling and our distinguished guests. And I would love to have you join us. So that's the plan. More details to come. If you think you might be interested in attending something like this, if you in next year, May of 2026, a week or so on a tour, London to London, everything I just talked about, meals, featured speakers, that kind of thing. Lots of chances for you to interact with your fellow literature lovers and me and with subject matter experts. If you think that's something that might interest you, feel free to let me know@jack wilsonauthormail.com that's J A C K E Wilson author or just go to our website historyofliterature.com and follow the contact links to submit a message to us that way. I'm a little anxious people pre launch Anxiety. Anxiety. Oh it's a lot of work to put this together. And the travel company is John Shores Travel. They're putting a lot of faith in me in hoping that people, listeners to the podcast will want to participate in this. But it's although I'm anxious, it's a good kind of anxiety because if all goes well, this will be a very good vacation indeed for me and for a small group of you, I would love to have the chance to meet some of you in person and this trip would be a very nice way to do it. Okay, more details on that soon. Start of July, hopefully and the trip itself in May of 2026. Hold the date. And now the main event for today. Paul Crystal is coming here to tell us all about the gems he found in the sludge of lesser known ancient texts. After KFC Phillips are back. Four delicious meals for just $7 each. That's great news for everyone. Except a driver in F1 the movie who only gets 2.5 seconds for a pit stop. 2.5 seconds? That's not enough time to indulge in juicy original recipe chicken. Oh man, he's gun. Creamy mashed potatoes, sweet pie poppers and a medium drink. Well, the rest of us can take as long as we'd like to enjoy any KFC. $7 fill up. Then see F1 the movie starring Brad Pitt. Only in theaters June 27. Rated PG13. Prices and participation vary while supplies last. Taxes, tips and fees extra. What makes a great pair of glasses? At Warby Parker, it's all the invisible extras without the extra cost. Their designer quality frames start at $95 including prescription lenses plus scratch resistant, smudge resistant and anti reflective coatings and UV protection and free adjustments for life. To find your next pair of glasses, sunglasses or contact lenses, or to find the Warby Parker store nearest you, head over to warbyparker.com that's warbyparker.com okay. Joining me now is Paul Kristol, who is a contributor to several history and archaeology magazines and TV and radio programs. He's also the author of more than 160 books published on a wide range of subjects. He joins us today to discuss his new book, Weird and Wonderful Stories of Ancient Greece and Rome. Paul Kristol, welcome to the History of Literature.

[Paul Kristol]

Hello. Thanks for inviting me.

[Jack Wilson]

So I wanted to make sure I got the number right. I saw one account that you had written 120 books and another that it was 160 books by now. Maybe it's even more than that. Are you at 160?

[Paul Kristol]

I'm sort of edging over 180, I think.

[Jack Wilson]

180. Okay. Well, I feel like maybe I've been doing this all wrong. I should change the title of the podcast to the History of Paul Kristol. But I get the sense that you grew up loving stories and storytelling. Why don't you tell us what kind of childhood you had and how books fit into it.

[Paul Kristol]

Yeah, probably quite a normal childhood in the sense that when I was growing up, I was born in 1954. Books were a very different thing to what they are today, obviously. And, you know, people tended to buy very cheap sort of books. A bit like what we have is sort of Mills and Boon stuff. But things were getting more interesting and that sort of literature was promoted by publishers like Penguin, which actually created a bit of a revolution by making good literature available and accessible to a much wider range of people at a price they could afford. So, yeah, things were changing. But as for me as a child, we had the usual stuff. You'd have an atlas which was full of countries colored in pink, you know, the British Empire. We'd have reference books. My mother was a bit of a sort of hypochondriac. So we. I remember. I remember having the Every Woman's Guide to Medical Problems and all that stuff. Yeah, books on inventions and whatever. The book that really stands out, which I think I received when I was about 9 or 10, was the children's encyclopedia. This, that and the other. That was a large format book, beautifully illustrated with pages and pages and pages of stuff that I never heard of before and which was all new to me. So, I mean, that sort of generated a sort of degree of curiosity and, you know, thirst for more information, just generally. So, yeah, it was. The house wasn't full of books like some houses probably were, or completely the opposite to other houses that didn't have a book in them. But, you know, we were probably in the middle, fairly average, and we were left, my brother and I, to sort of get on with what we wanted. And if that included books and so much the better, I suppose.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. Well, I can see that encyclopedic interest in the list of titles that you've published. There's a lot of history and ancient history and we'll talk about a lot of that for the bulk of our conversation here. But you've also written books about chocolate and tea and buildings and castles and pubs and villages and things like that. And maybe the pair of quotes that I found at the beginning of Miracula sort of gives us a sense of who you are. And one was learning never exhausts the mind. And the other was life without celebration is a long road without an inn. That seems to cover the basics pretty well. Yeah. Okay, so let's go to the ancient world. Can you trace your interest in the ancient world back to a particular moment or event? Was there an encyclopedia entry or. Or what triggered this for you.

[Paul Kristol]

I think, really it was a bit more sort of straightforward than that. I lived in Germany for a while and when we moved back to England, I went to what we used to call grammar schools, and still do, which was selective in those days, as opposed to not being selective. So I went to a grammar school and the option open to me was, you can't do German and Latin. You've got to do one, but you can't do German because the class set is already full. So you've got to do Latin, Right?

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[Paul Kristol]

I was much better at German than I ever was at Latin. So here's me doing Latin and struggling a bit, I suppose, age, what, 14 maybe. And it was a Mr. Hogg, Mr. John Hogg, my Latin teacher, who spent an inordinate amount of time getting me up to scratch with the Latin language. And. Yeah, so it was basically sort of by accident that I actually became interested in the Classics. And when I was in the sixth form doing A levels, I then took the opportunity to do an extra O level. I imagine some of or most of your listenership, or understand what they are, they're just basically the exams that give you the right of passage towards further and higher education. So anyway, I was doing A levels, one of which was Latin, and I decided I'd do a Greek, Ancient Greek, O level at the same time. So that added to my sort of portfolio of dead languages, which no one ever speaks anymore. So that. That's probably where it sprung from.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. And so was it the language itself that appealed to you, or was it the figures and the stories or the just thinking about a world different from ours, or what was the appeal?

[Paul Kristol]

I think the Latin language in particular, and Greek to some extent has got its own fascinations. People say it's logical and it's well ordered and organized, and there was that. And everything sort of fitted, like the cases and the tenses and such, like, they were logical. And it. It seemed right that what you were writing or reading in Latin was as it was. It seemed to be very comfortable in the linguistics world. But other things sort of, sort of interceded, like you say, the architecture, the art and whatever, wall paintings and mosaics, always a source of fascination, the literature itself, because at O level, when you're about 16, you start to read quite a lot of original Latin, mainly in history, through Livy and Cicero and such, like Tacitus, but also quite a lot of poetry. And the poetry fascinated me quite a bit because A in Virgil and people like him, poets like him, it was so Vivid and so descriptive and so colorful. There was a real attraction there because it was alive, you know, I mean, the alternative was, which I did as much as I probably did reading Latin, was you'd go to a comic and sort of read comics and they were alive and colorful and dramatic and whatever. So for the, the sort of growing mind, they were, they were something that you could enjoy because they were, to a large extent, they were full of action, just like a comic would be. So. Yeah, right.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay, so let's talk about Miracula. What criteria did you use to select the weird and wonderful stories for the book? Was there a. I mean, is it. We have the saying here in the States, it's based on a famous judge who had to define obscenity. And he said, I know it when I see it. Was it as simple as that? If it struck you as weird or wonderful, then that meant it was fair game for the book. Or was there something in particular you were looking for?

[Paul Kristol]

I think I understand what the judge is saying perfectly, and that tells us probably more about the judge than it does about his judgments. But, yeah, I mean, the criteria for inclusion was stuff that was odd, out of order and irregular and Yeah, I mean, you look at a lot of Latin, Cicero, for example, and it is quite straight laced. It's very organized. It's very, in some cases, philosophical. It's, it's written for the minority literate classes. It was part of life for the aristocracy to become learned and conversant with Cicero's speeches, Tacitus's histories, Livy's histories, and so on. So, yeah, I mean, they were the norm. And that's a lot of that has survived, whereas most of wasn't like that. Like what we're talking about, paradoxography didn't survive. And the, the way we actually get our references for paradoxography is through the references in other authors who have survived. So to a large extent, it's happenstance. But the Romans were good at seeing the humorous side of things and the absurd side of things and that. That's where paradoxography came in. You know, the guys must have sat down and said, all right, let's write a book about things that no one will believe. Let's pretend that this happened or it did happen, but let's tell them because they won't know about this because it's, you know, it's not in the straight laced canon that Cicero and Tacitus and whatever subscribe to. Yeah, so, yeah, I mean, it's basically anything that either made you laugh, made you curious, or made you not believe it.

[Jack Wilson]

Right.

[Paul Kristol]

It was out there. It got into the book.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. So you list a few books that you. From the ancient world that you say could have served as a model for yours, and they have titles of like, On Incredible Things and On Marvelous Things Heard and Wonderful Things and so on. Have any of those books survived? They sound like they would be sort of a compendium of tales, but I wasn't sure if you were able to draw from those or if, as you just said, we know that the books existed because we see references to them in other books that have survived.

[Paul Kristol]

Yeah, well, there are the references, and they're very important for anyone writing about or doing a compilation of books that you would classify under the genre paradoxography. So the references are key. But the other thing that sort of makes the subject more accessible, I suppose, is that some of them did survive. Callimachus, who was a Greek lyric poet, his work has survived to a large extent. And there's a guy who wrote a book called the Book of Marvels, who wrote in the second century A.D. and his book of Marvels has come down to is virtually intact. And a lot of other people who were dabbling in paradoxography obviously used his stuff and whatever. But the other important thing about this sort of information, this sort of narrative, if you like, is that it. People like Cicero also wrote what you would term as paradoxography. His book, the Admiranda, which is Latin for things that should be marveled at, that hasn't survived, but there are references to it. But the important thing that it shows that Cicero wasn't just about writing letters to his friends and relatives in the very political world that he lived in, or to writing speeches in defense of this, that or the other, or attacking other people. He wasn't just a lawyer and a politician and a philosopher. He did write himself, possibly for personal sort of light relief. He did write what you would term as paradoxographical works as well. He wasn't the only one. Varro, who is probably the most prolific of Roman authors, wrote on things like architecture and aqueducts, civil engineering, basically. He also wrote quite a lot of stuff that he would term as quite off, you know, off the beaten track, oddball, left winger, whatever. So there's him as well. And also Pliny the Elder, who's probably our most famous paradoxographer. He was the author of a massive, huge encyclopedia covering all sorts of subjects, from linguistics right through to botanical plants, from magical herbs, all manner of things. Literally, a true encyclopedia. He also added paradoxographical material because his sort of aims and scope in writing the encyclopedia was, it doesn't matter whether it's true or not. And I'm not bothered if it's true or not. Here it is, take it or leave it. And if you, you know, you want to sort of challenge its veracity, then don't talk to me, talk to the authors who I've got the information from, I. E. My sources. So people weren't embarrassed by the fact that it may not be true or it may just be plain daft. You know, they wrote it. And what we do know from a guy called Owl of Jellius who wrote a book called Attic Nights, which was a very good title because it basically could embrace anything and probably did. In the final analysis. He was getting off a boat one day in a famous Roman port and he spied a bookstore, secondhand bookstore, and it was full of paradoxical graphical material. So he bought a lot of it and read it, and he handed down quite a lot of information from, you know, his sort of. His findings and his discovery that day at the bookstore.

[Jack Wilson]

How would you define paradoxography for listeners who might not be familiar with that term?

[Paul Kristol]

It's basically, obviously the word paradox comes from that, and there's an element of that in it. Something that is true but appears not to be true or the opposite should be true, and so on. You know, in effect, it's sort of. Before our modern use of the word, its meaning did have connotations of the miraculous, the unbelievable, the. The astounding, the astonishing, all those sort of things. You know, it's stuff that you wouldn't normally believe unless someone like one of these authors that I've listed actually told you about. And even then you wouldn't necessarily believe it, but it's there for you to have, take it or leave it. So the paradoxographers were there just to sort of scoop up and sort of relate literally the information they were finding from their sources. I mean, you can, in some ways, you could equate it with modern tabloid journalism, you know, the more sensational the better. But sometimes, and increasingly, I suppose, the more sensational it got, the less likely it was to be founded in truth.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. Although there is a relationship with truth. You mentioned that Pliny was saying, don't come to me. I'm just relating what other people have said. But there's another caveat that he made that I wanted to mention, which is that you cite, which is that he says some of these facts will seem astonishing and indeed incredible to many. Then he says, who, for example, could ever believe that the Ethiopians existed if they had not actually seen them? And you know, we might say, like, for us a unicorn might be something that, that no one would believe because we don't have pictures, we don't have, you know, people haven't video recorded them and so on. But if you were living in the ancient world, the same might be said about an elephant or, or, you know, some other, a whale or something that hadn't been seen.

[Paul Kristol]

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I mean, my apologies to all Ethiopians listening. I don't think he meant to be sort of rude in any way, but to the average Roman who, you know, to a large extent, they were dark skinned and dark hair and they had dark eyes, the blackness of Ethiopians and modern Sudanese was something that was spectacular. At some point, most Romans would not have seen one before they actually saw one. And the only time they actually saw them was either as sort of ancillary regiments to the Roman army and they would fight alongside the Romans and sometimes against them, but also as slaves. Slavery introduced a lot of stuff to the Roman because a lot of it was imported from strange and miraculous lands like Ethiopia. And Ethiopia actually became a word for black people. It wasn't Ethiopia as such. It was just anyone who was very black. The book also tackles ancient examples of topics still relevant today. Racism, slavery and misogyny. The pieces are by turns absorbing, enchanting, curious, unbelievable, comical, astonishing, disturbing, and occasionally just plain daft. That about sums it up. So all life is there and there's something for everyone there, right?

[Jack Wilson]

Right.

[Paul Kristol]

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[Paul Kristol]

I don't think the average Roman or person within the Roman Empire who wasn't necessarily a Roman, but someone who'd been conquered or taken over, I don't think they really bothered about the veracity of what they were reading. To them, this genre was slightly educational, but more importantly to them, I think it was humorous and comical. It was something. It was leisure reading rather than sort of other types of Roman literature like poetry and epic and politics and so on. So it was, it was something that you would turn to after a busy day in the sort of the shop or the small factory or, you know, in the court or in the government. It was, it was what you'd read probably when you'd got home and you're putting your feet up. So I don't think they were judged on whether it was true or not or how true it might be. I think it was just something that they read.

[Jack Wilson]

Right, okay. So I want to give you a chance to. Or I want to invite you to tell us some of these stories so we can get a flavor of them. But before we get there, I just wanted to say one more word about sources, which is. I think a lot of people might be thinking, oh, sure, there's a lot of this in Herodotus and so on, but you have other books that you said were helpful and they have titles like 40 Marvelous Things About Water and About the Barren Woman. And they sound sort of like self help books or like little treatises about moles or. Or the type of women who ought to be taken as wives and things like that.

[Paul Kristol]

Classic.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, yeah. Where are these books? I wasn't familiar with any of them. Are these books that exist and a person can buy. Do you have copies of these?

[Paul Kristol]

A lot of the stuff that comes from those books is referenced by other authors. The originals have long been lost by wars, famine, all sorts of things that destroy empires and civilizations. Goths, Visigoths, Christians, they were all burning books at some stage or another and basically depleting the sum total of world culture and knowledge. So there's a lot of stuff going on that wasn't conducive to longevity in terms of books surviving various stages of history. So there's a lot of that going on which destroyed a lot of literature. And, you know, to put it into context, a huge amount more of what was published is lost than that which has survived. But if you go into a university library or, you know, the Institute of Classical Studies in London, various other institutes around the world, you'll find this stuff either as fragments of literature, a collection of fragments of various authors and such like, or, as I say, as we've discussed, as sort of references to authors who have survived, but not in their entirety and not as whole works of literature. So they're there, but you've got to seek them out, and they haven't really, you know, despite people like me sort of writing about them. And I'm probably quite unique in the fact that I've written about them because there is no book on paradoxography in itself that sort of attempts to get all the sources together as a compilation or a compendium. Despite that, such as it is, they're still very obscure, very obscure writers, but they've got some fascinating titles, as you've just related.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay, so let's walk through some of the chapters of your book, which are pretty fascinating, too. Is there a section or two that you could describe for us? Do you have a favorite?

[Paul Kristol]

In terms of the whole section, I suppose science is quite interesting. It covers things like space travel, astronomy stuff. You wouldn't really expect the Romans to have their head around. There's all of that, basically, that comes from a couple of novels that were written in the first and second centuries AD where it's a sort of mock history. And these histories contain Romans who actually got into rockets and discovered other planets and such. In other words, early science fiction. But there's stuff like that which is fascinating. There's stuff about how to use crests in recipes and so on. Then there's the weird sex chapters, which fascinate everyone, whether they admit it or not. So you get information relating to a disorder, a psychological disorder called buttock's partialism, which is people who had this predilection for bums on people, men and women. You have information on another disorder where people are attracted to statues and they are so enamored by them that they try to make love to them or sort of, well, basically have sex with a statue. There's priapism, which you may or may know is a condition which is a medical condition where you've got an erection and you can't get rid of it, which is useful some of the time, but most of the time it's a pain in the neck as a. There's zoophilia. Bestiality, another word for bestiality. There's quite a bit of bestiality going on in the Roman world and Greek world. See, the Romans didn't have all of this what we would call Victorian sort of sensitivity about things. They weren't bothered about women using dildos, they weren't bothered about pederasty and such like. In fact, the Greeks made a sort of culture out of it. You know, they just got on with it. They weren't embarrassed by it at all. So you walk into the average, well off Roman's house and the walls in the dining room and the rooms leading up to the dining would be full of what we would now call pejoratively pornography. But that, you know, that didn't bother anyone, women included. It was just something that you had on your wall, like flock wallpaper, I suppose.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[Paul Kristol]

So they had different values and different things. But you know, they are quite funny when you read about them. Necrophilia, like having sex with your mum, you know, which Nero did. Incest, which most of the sort of Julio, Claudian and some later emperors were quite good at. You know, they were always getting it off with their brothers and sisters and sons and daughters. All of that you know, sort of stuff that today is sort of under the counter and sort of embarrassing to people. Gender reassignment. My sogny have mentioned domestic. And now we move into the dark areas of society which were dark then and unfortunately are still dark today. Sexual abuse, domestic abuse, FGM was performed. We tend to think of it as a modern thing that sort of happens in darkest Africa and Muslim countries. Yeah, all of these issues are contentious now. Were sort of going on in the ancient world. Big time. Slavery, of course, we all know about that. Magic. Magic was big, big business. Everyone believed in it. Everyone was superstitious and to an inordinate sense, you know, extent. Werewolves, voodoo dolls, cannibalism.

[Jack Wilson]

I get the feeling that as I go through the list here and have read in your book, that a lot of this strikes me as people who are aspiring to something. They're either trying to figure out how to live better or to figure out what it's worth knowing about or what's special about their own society. There's a lot of what we would think of as self help section. There are tips about parenting and education and parking. And then all the mythology and the superstitions and so on, travel and archaeology. And did you come away from this thinking that the ancient Greeks and Romans were especially curious, an inquisitive group of people?

[Paul Kristol]

Definitely, yeah. Yeah. I mean, they had the benefit of looking back, well, illiterate peoples amongst them. Looking back and looking at civilizations in Syria, Egypt. They were looking at what they had achieved. And they were undoubtedly, although they may be a bit xenophobic towards them, they were impressed by this. They wanted to do the best for themselves as Romans, as sort of people who could promulgate and spread what became known as Romanitas, I. E. Being a Roman or lighter Roman. They were very Catholic with a small C. In terms of what they did, in terms of satisfying that curiosity. They would look at everything, they would try everything. And, you know, we talked about some funny titles. You know, there's another one that I made a note of, a book on long lived people which was basically octogenarians and older. You know, I mean, how interesting must that have been? But, you know, it was there. So they would look at it and they would read it and someone had to write it. Yeah.

[Jack Wilson]

And I guess a final question. Is there anything that you say in the introduction, we can always learn something from these oddities. What is it? Is there anything that we learn about ourselves as we go through this catalog of the miraculous and the marvelous in the ancient world?

[Paul Kristol]

I suppose there's lots of things. The most obvious one is that this stuff existed. Most people, including classicists, don't know anything about it. So you can never assume that we've got anything like the full amount of knowledge that is available. There's always something there. There's. Apart from the fact that they exist. And you can read more Plato or Aristotle and such like Virgil and Homer. And he said the fact that it's there, you can read it, it's accessible, but there's different ways of interpreting it. And those ways of interpreting it obviously change with the cultures that we're in. So our culture, you know, in 2000s will be very different from obviously the sort of Regency period or the Georgian period in England, the way they interpreted it through the Enlightenment and so on. In 20, 50, 60, it'll be a totally different way of looking at Plato because we've got this thing called artificial intelligence coming along, rewriting history for us. That's what's going to happen to some extent.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. And they may also in the future be looking back at our time and saying, well, look at this. They thought it was so impossible that Time travel was. Was something that, that could never happen. And aren't they quaint and cute for. For failing to recognize that it was just around the corner?

[Paul Kristol]

Yeah. The other thing is that, you know, that we all know, and it's a cliche. Nothing's new in this world or any other one.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, right.

[Paul Kristol]

These guys, classical authors, wrote about waste management and sort of.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[Paul Kristol]

You know, how to dispose of waste and garbage. They knew about climate change, they knew about irrigation to a great extent. All these things that are so important and so contentious in the modern world. They were already being done by the Romans and the Greeks.

[Jack Wilson]

Right, right.

[Paul Kristol]

You can't assume that we know everything. We don't. We know nothing. I suppose in one respect.

[Jack Wilson]

You have a chapter called the Hell that is Urban Living. I think that's familiar to a lot of people today.

[Paul Kristol]

More and more. I think that's the constituency that's growing quite rapidly.

[Jack Wilson]

Right, right. Okay, well, let's leave things there. The book is called Weird and Wonderful Stories of Ancient Greece and Rome. Paul Crystal, thank you so much for joining me on the History of Literature.

[Paul Kristol]

Yeah, yeah, pleasure. Thanks for inviting.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay, there we go. That's going to do it for this episode of the History of Literature. My thanks to Paul Crystal for joining me and to Chaz and Katie Ross. Do check out Copperhead Press for more information and don't forget to email me if you think a tour with me and some fellow podcast listeners and some guests of the show if you think that sounds like something you might be interested in in doing next year. We're not quite ready to have people actually sign up if you're listening to this in June, but that should be coming soon. Maybe if you're listening to this a little later than the release date. It has already happened. But for now, here in June, we're gauging interest and I'm very much hoping we'll have lots of interest. So if that's you, I would love to hear from you. Jack Wilson, author at J A C K E Wilson Authority. Or you can contact us through our [e-mail] I'm Jack Wilson. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time. Did you know not all organic food is created equal? While we trust the organic label to.

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