← The History of Literature
The History of Literature
716 Icelandic Folk Legends (with Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir) | John le Carre at the Bodleian
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- [00:02]
Emma
The History of Literature Podcast is a member of the podglomerate Network and Lit Hub Radio.
- [00:09]
Jack Wilson
Hey folks, it's Jack. Here to promote something that's a little special. Not a thing and not a service, an opportunity for you to have an experience. The History of Literature Podcast is going on the road and you can join us. Our first stop is literary England, the land of Dr. Johnson and Jane Austen and Tolkien and C.S. lewis. Oh, and Dickens. Oh, and Shakespeare. Perhaps you've heard of him. This isn't a trip where you march from site to site checking off boxes. Seen it, seen it, seen it, seen it.
- [00:44]
Emma
This is a week plus a little more traveling with me and Emma and.
- [00:48]
Jack Wilson
A group of other fans of literature. All of us enjoying our conversations, our.
- [00:54]
Emma
Chance to learn and grow and be.
- [00:56]
Jack Wilson
Inspired by these writers and their works that we love so much. With special visits along the way from past guests of the show your favorites who will deepen our appreciation for what we're seeing.
- [01:07]
Emma
So please consider it.
- [01:09]
Jack Wilson
We would love to have you. You can learn more by going to John Shores Travel that's S H O R S and look for the upcoming trip to England with Jack Wilson. Or reach out to us@historyofliterature.com and we will tell you all the details. It's going to be in May of 2026, but act now to secure your spot. Space is limited and let's all spend some quality time together enjoying literature and enjoying life.
- [01:38]
Emma
Rated T for teen.
- [01:39]
Summer
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- [02:08]
Jack Wilson
Hello. We are covering some ground today on the history of literature. From Oxford to Iceland, the world of spycraft to the enchanted world of ghosts, trolls and the hidden people. A new exhibition at the Bodleian Library and a conversation with an expert in Icelandic folk legends today on the history of literature. Okay, here we go.
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Emma
Welcome to the podcast.
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Jack Wilson
I'm Jack Wilson. Thank you for joining me. I am so glad you are here today. So we still have some spots available on the History of Literature podcast tour. It's officially capped at 18, but if you act now, you can secure your position. They are filling up these slots. I'm so excited.
- [03:02]
Emma
This is coming in May of 2026.
- [03:05]
Jack Wilson
And all of the details are at John Shores Travel, which you can get to by Googling it or by going to historyofliterature.com don't miss out. We'll be going to the land of Shakespeare, Dickens, Dr. Johnson, my hero Jane Austen and more. And we'll be visited by some special guests along the way. And one of our stops will be the Bodleian Library at Oxford, which is an incredible place, truly one of a kind. And this takes us to our first story of the day, a new exhibit at the Bodleian that's focused on John Le Carre's works. The Guardian newspaper brings us the story. I'm a huge John Le Carre fan, by the way. He's an incredible writer and when you're in that mood for a Cold War spy book. I know he also wrote books after the Cold War, and some of those are very good. He took on the pharmaceutical industry and the post Cold War world for spies and so on. But even in those books, he's a Cold War writer. That's him. The Cold War never really left him, I don't think. Everything was either immersed in it or formed from it or responding to it. It's like those guys who say, hi, I'm so and so, I'm from the 60s. He was from the Cold War. He was himself a spy, of course, kind of a dabbler as a spy. He. He was a writer who once worked as a spy. That's how he preferred it, rather than as opposed to a spy who became a writer. And he had a background for deceit. Deception was part of his upbringing. He had a roguish father, a con man who used to draft young John Le Carre, whose name then was David Cornwell, into the father's schemes. Le Carre worked for British Intelligence before he was outed by the traitor Kim Philby, who passed along his name to the Russians. A Soviet mole in the highest ranks of the British Secret Service. That's hard to believe. It's the stuff of fiction and. Except it was reality. And Le Carre also used it in his fiction in the classic Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy. He was also an accomplished artist, which I didn't know. His sketches, which I've seen pictures of now, are very well done. Kind of a really good cartoonist. I had no idea. But you can see them in this exhibit at the Bodleian along with handwritten notations and the margins of his novels, or drafts of his novels and other illuminating treats. Oxford, he said, was the spiritual home of his most famous character, George Smiley. And then he said, it's my spiritual home, too. He was also kind of an odd person in some ways. He was sort of addicted to deceit. He had affairs and would devise elaborate ruses to keep meetings clandestine. It was almost, one, lover said, as if he were practicing for his novels, trying things out, devising schemes and doubling backs and double crosses and secrets withheld and divulged, as if his actions were early drafts of things he was planning to write about. Sort of that method, writing, thinking, what would it be like to be deceiving this person and to be doing it under the nose of my wife? And so on. I don't know how much of that, if any, has made it into the exhibition at the Bodleian, but it's Le Carre, the writer we care most about anyway, and this exhibit gives us a view of how he wrote, what he did. That is at the Bodleian Library in Oxford. And guess what? It runs through April of 2026, so our history of Literature podcast tour is going to miss it by a few weeks. We won't get there until early May, but I'm sure we will have something else to see there nevertheless. I can't wait to see what exhibit they have planned for the one that's going to come after John Le Carrea. And there'll be lots to share and talk about and enjoy in a group, our group of intrepid travelers. Our 2026 is going to be a time to connect. That's the plan. We have some other connections to make today. Let's talk about Iceland. What a magical place. It's a wondrous landscape. I visited once. I was only there for about a week, but I thought I could spend years here, a lifetime. At times it feels like you're on a grassy rock, kind of placid, like Ireland, a bucolic paradise, even, even tranquil, with the stormy seas and the oceanic wind. Never too far away. You can feel like you're grounded, like you're rooted. And then it's also got these, this explosive quality. It's got the volcanoes and geysers. The earth far below is slowly crowding together. It's all plate tectonics, isn't it? It's pushing together and things are erupting through the surface. But Iceland also has wild black beaches and stretches of moonscape. Prairies, I'd call them Flatlands and hot water that powers the nation cleanly. And some of the best and nicest and sweetest people you could ever hope to meet. And something I didn't know. A long tradition of folk legends, including ghosts and trolls, elves. Those are the hidden people. Witches, sorcerers, devils, outlaws and other supernatural creatures. This is a book where we get a preface by Jack Zipes. You may remember our episode with him, one of the world's leading folktale experts. And Jack Zipes tells us all about the legends in Iceland and the contribution that Dagrun Osk, Jon's daughter, our guest today, has made to our academic understanding of the subject. We see that she works, works with museums, she's academic. And then we get in the introduction, the very first line. My family is haunted by a ghost. There we go. We are in, we are off. I am ready for more. I want to know more about this and about these stories. What exactly are the hidden people? How do they interact with humans? Where are the trolls? Where do they live? How has the landscape interacted with these creatures, produced them? What do people of Iceland believe? What have they believed in the past and what do they believe now? What is it about Icelanders and human beings for that matter, that drives us to tell these stories? Why do they matter to us? What do they say about us? All those questions and nobody better to tackle them than our guest today. Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir will join us after this. This is an ad by BetterHelp. Hey, it's Summer. But that can come with a lot of stress, especially for those of us who work.
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- [13:57]
Emma
Okay. Joining me now is Dagrun Osk Jonstatter, who teaches folkloristics at the University of Iceland and is published widely in the field of Icelandic folk legends. She's here today to discuss her book.
- [14:09]
Jack Wilson
Ghosts, Trolls and the Hidden People, an anthology of Icelandic folk legends.
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Emma
Darun Osk Jonsdottir, welcome to the history of literature.
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Thank you. I'm very happy to be here.
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Emma
So my first question is just how old these stories are. Do we know how many centuries they go back?
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Yeah. Well, no, not really. We don't really know how old they are. They were collected mostly in the late 19th and early 20th century century to be published in folk legend collections. But many of them are a bit old, might be older, but it's impossible to tell because the stories had been in oral tradition before they were collected and published in folk legend collections. And some of them have similarities to stories known elsewhere in the world. And some of the motifs that we find there are also known in the can be found in the Icelandic sagas. So they could be quite old, but it's impossible for us to tell how old really.
- [15:23]
Emma
And I think a lot of listeners might be familiar with the efforts of the Brothers Grimm in Germany who were collecting folk tales, but recognizing that these were oral stories that had maybe been told at different times and in different places, but it could date back centuries. And I understand that Iceland had a figure kind of like the Brothers Grimm.
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Jack Wilson
Jon Arneson.
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Emma
So who was he and what did he do exactly?
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Yes, Jon Arnesson, he is looked at as the pioneer of folk legend collection in Iceland and was very inspired by the Brothers Grimm. He started collecting folk legends in the 19th century along with a friend of his, Magnus Grimson, who unfortunately passed away early on. But he was collecting stories all over Iceland and Magnus and published a folk legend collection that was not very well received. Icelanders were not very excited about the folk legends being collected and published. But then another German scholar, Konrad Maurer, came to Iceland and he traveled around Iceland and new Icelandic. So he collected some stories of his own and published and met with Jonartnerson and promised to help him if he would continue to collect stories, he would help them get published in Germany. So Johan Ottneson continued to collect stories and had a great network of collectors because he had worked as a bishop's secretary and he also worked at the priest school in Iceland. So he knew a lot of priests all over Iceland that would help him collect these stories that he then later published.
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Emma
And the priests would say, I know someone who is a good storyteller. I'll ask him and. And to tell me a few stories and then I'll write them down and send them in. Was that kind of how it worked?
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Yes, that's kind of how it worked. So Johann at Nason sent out a call for stories and connect connected the priests that he knew and asked them to collect stories for him. And the priests, they were very well connected in their societies. So they would go to farms and listen to stories and write down and then send to Joan. It sometimes caused a bit of a problem because the priests or naturally people, not everyone was very excited to tell the priests their stories about trolls and hidden people and ghosts and so on. So it some cases caused a bit of a problem. But any. But nevertheless they managed to collect a lot of Icelandic folk legend material.
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Emma
Was that part of the reason why the initial volume wasn't so popular with Icelanders? Was it that they said, well, this makes us look like a superstitious people or this makes us look like rustic and rural and that kind of thing? Or were they saying, well, these are stories we all already know. What do we need them in a book for? Or do we know why the. The first volume of Jon Arneson was not so popular?
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
I'm not quite sure what was the reason that it wasn't so well received. But I mean it was probably like a mixture of those reasons.
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Emma
So when did you start hearing these stories? Are they taught in school? Are they still told at home? Is there a volume of them that every Icelander has on his or her bookshelf? Or, you know, how important are they to the general life and culture of Iceland today.
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
They are quite important, I would say. Many own the collection of Jonathan today. I heard those stories first when I was quite young. My father is also a folklorist, so he would tell. Yeah, A lot of those stories at home to me and my three younger brothers. So we would hear a lot of. A lot of folk legends growing up. But they are also taught in schools. I grew up in rural Iceland, in the Westfjords of Iceland since area. And there they are taught in schools, for example, as part of studying Icelandic literature, Icelandic language as well. Also just getting to know your area when you're learning about your community and the landscape around and. And I mean, those stories can be found all over Iceland. So they're often used in teaching children as well about the area in which they live in and the history of that area. And then it's also very often shows up in entertainment or the media, especially perhaps aimed towards children. So it's. I mean, authors of children books, they have sought inspiration from the Icelandic folk legends for a long time. And there would be radio programs and TV shows where those stories were being acted out that I would watch as a child. So they are very. You see them all around, really, when you are younger and. And growing up. And you'll see them in museums In. In Holmavik, the town where I went to school, there is the Museum of Sorcery and Witchcraft. So it is very embedded into the. The culture, I would say. Yeah.
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Emma
And what appealed to you about these stories?
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
I mean, I just thought they were so. I mean, a little bit. The horror, I would say. I mean, being a little bit afraid. Just. I'm still a huge fan of horror movies.
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Emma
Yeah, yeah.
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
And listening to those stories and feeling a little bit uneasy and. And a little bit afraid as well, I thought was very appealing.
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Emma
Exciting.
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Yeah, yeah, Exciting. When I was younger also, just how they are. How embedded into the landscape, in our surroundings, like when you're traveling. I thought it was very interesting to hear those stories of when we would pass a big rock and. And I would hear that it was the home of the hidden people or. Or something that. That I found very interesting how it kind of added some. Some magic to the surroundings and maybe the everyday of our lives as well.
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Emma
Right, right. And I mean, this question, you and I might have a different answer to it. But when I visited Iceland, the landscape was so unusual and full of extremes and full of this beauty and. But also just strangeness and it, you know, I. It almost seems like the kind of place where you would need to develop some legends in order to kind of understand how everything can look the way it looks. But I don't know if that's the same for you. If you're growing up and it's, you know, it's like maybe I'm describing an ocean to a fish and that's the only thing you know. But did it. Did it seem to you like the landscape was naturally lent itself to the generation of legends like that?
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
I mean, yeah, for me, of course, it is usual, the landscape, but it is still, I mean, as you say, it is often quite extreme, and sometimes you will see a very big, tall rock standing somewhere, and it appears to have just appeared out of nowhere, you know?
- [23:49]
Jack Wilson
Yeah, right.
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
And can't really explain how it ended up there and where it could have come from. And. And also, when you have grown up with these stories and you have heard that the hidden people, they live in big rocks, and then you are walking around and you see a big rock, you immediately think back to all those stories that you have heard, and you start thinking, well, this looks like an Alf rock, or this rock looks just like hidden people. They must live in it. There must be a story connected to this place.
- [24:19]
Jack Wilson
Yeah.
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
So the landscape, I mean, I think stories work to create the landscape because, I mean, a rock is way more interesting when, you know, hidden people live in it than if it's just a rock, in my opinion.
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Emma
Right, right.
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
But the same way, I think the landscape creates stories, because you already know those stories, and then you see a rock that resembles those that you've heard of in the stories of the hidden people, and you immediately start imagining that there is a story connected to this rock as well, because it just looks like your typical home of the hidden people. So in that way, I think the landscape also works to create the stories.
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Jack Wilson
Right.
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Emma
Okay, let's take a quick break, and then we'll hear about some specific Icelandic folk legends.
- [25:26]
Unknown
Close your eyes.
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Exhale.
- [25:28]
Unknown
Feel your body relax, and let go.
- [25:30]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Of whatever you're carrying. Today, while I'm letting go of the.
- [25:34]
Unknown
Worry that I wouldn't get my new.
- [25:36]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Contacts in in time for this class.
- [25:37]
Unknown
I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts.
- [25:40]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.
- [25:41]
Unknown
And breathe.
- [25:42]
Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order.
- [25:48]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order.
- [25:54]
Emma
1-800-Contacts.
- [25:56]
Unknown
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- [26:05]
Emma
Time to save the planet. What's the plan? Trust me, I hate that. Bad plan.
- [26:09]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Come on.
- [26:09]
Jack Wilson
Terrible.
- [26:10]
Emma
That's a stupid plan.
- [26:11]
Unknown
Prepare for Fantastic.
- [26:13]
We will face this together as a family.
- [26:17]
Marvel Studios the Fantastic Four First Steps only in theaters July 25. Make PG 13. Some material may be inappropriate for children under 13. Get tickets now.
- [26:40]
Emma
Okay, we're back. So, Darun, you begin your your book with the story of your family's ghost. And I was wondering if you could tell us the story as your father told it to you.
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Yes, I'm very happy to, because it's my favorite story. So the story, it goes a little bit like this. There was once a young woman, young girl, who lived at a farm called Skridens Annie. And there was a man who was in love with a girl. And he asked her to marry him, but the girl turned him down and did not want to marry him. So he became very offended. And as one does, he decided that he was going to bring back a ghost and send to the girl to get some revenge. So he goes out and he brings back a ghost, and he sends the ghost to the home of the girl. And it's not easy to bring back a ghost. If you want to bring back a ghost, you first have to go to the graveyard. And then you have to say some magic words over the grave of the person that you're bringing back. And the first thing of the ghost that pops out of the grave is the hat. And then you have to grab the hat and you have to lick the foam that is coming from the mouth of the ghost, which is quite disgusting.
- [28:15]
Emma
Yeah.
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
And when you've done that, the rest of the ghost climbs up out from the grave. And then you have to win it in a wrestling match. But if you do all that, then you have brought back a ghost. And this the man did. And he sent the ghost to the house of the girl at Skriedensanni. And when the ghost arrives, it stops outside of the living room and it peeks through the keyhole to see what is happening inside. And inside, the girl and her family are all eating pudding. The ghost decides to turn itself into a tiny little fly. And it flies through the keyhole and sits down in the spoon of the girl. And the girl doesn't notice the fly, so she puts the spoon with the fly in it in her mouth. And as soon as the ghost is inside the mouth of the girl, it springs up to full size, so her head explodes. And this is one of the very few splatter stories in Atlantic book legend material. But then because the ghost didn't want to be ruled by the man that had brought it back, it goes back and kills the man, but then returns to the farm at and follows the family of the girls. And Icelandic ghosts, they can either follow specific families for nine generations or 300 years, whatever comes first. So to this day the ghost is still following the family?
- [30:04]
Emma
Yeah. And this is fairly common that a family has a particular ghost connected to it?
- [30:12]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Yes, it is fairly common that families have some sort of ghosts that are following the family and have some sort of stories of how this ghost came around for in the first place.
- [30:27]
Emma
Yeah. But now is the ghost, do they have different relationships with the family? Like are some haunting the family and playing tricks on the family and so on and others are. Are friendly or kind of look out for the family or what is the relationship that a family has with its ghost?
- [30:49]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Usually the ghosts are those trickster kinds that are kind of racing havoc and. Yeah, all sorts of sorts of mischievous acts. But they become calmer over time, according to Icelandic folk legends as well. So at first they are more trouble, but as time goes by they become more calm and easier to deal with. But often they hunt specific members of the family more than others. They especially follow specific people. So in my family, for example, there was this man who was. Everybody believed that the ghost of Skrienzenny called Ennis Mori, was following more than other people of the family. So every time that he would go somewhere, there would be a knock on the door and people would go out to open the door and see who was there. And then there was no one. But five minutes later this man would arrive and knock on the door as well. And then people would always say that the ghost arrived five minutes before he.
- [31:58]
Emma
Did, kind of paving the way, preparing people for it. Oh, you know, I had an experience like that myself, but we don't need to talk about that. I'm wondering if you ever have met your family's ghost.
- [32:14]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
I personally have not met the family ghost, but my grandmother had a story of the. Of the family ghost. She at least once claimed to have seen it working alongside my father and his brother, where they were outside working. They were building at the time and she was quite certain that she had seen three people working there, but there were only two of them. So then obviously we all know that it's the family ghost. Third person.
- [32:48]
Emma
Yeah, because, you know, the, the 300 years or the nine generations have not expired yet.
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
No, and I don't think they ever Will they will always move along.
- [32:58]
Emma
Oh, okay. So it's, it's interesting that the story was with the ghost turning into a fly and landing on a spoon and then winding up, leading to this kind of horrific event with the young woman who ate the fly or put the fly in her mouth. And yet you weren't terrified by this story when you heard it? Even as a little girl, I could imagine that young people might say, well, this is, this is terrifying. How am I. I'm going to have to check all my food very carefully so I don't eat this fly accidentally. But you found the story curious and captivating. So is this when you knew that you wanted to be a folklorist yourself.
- [33:40]
Jack Wilson
Or did that come later?
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
That came later. As I said, my father is also a folklorist. So I tried very hard to rebel a little and studied Icelandic literature. But then I, very quickly afterwards, after I started the university move, just gave in and moved on to folk heuristics, which I'm very happy about that decision because I, I mean, I'm very fascinated by, by all these stories and also what they can tell us about the society that told the stories, what information they can give us, for example, about the world views of the people, their fears and hopes and dreams and, and so on, because all of that we can see in those stories.
- [34:29]
Emma
Yeah, so I want to get to that, but first let's talk about the other, I guess, beings that you mention in your. The title of your book. What can you tell us about trolls? What exactly are they and where do they live and what are they like, what do they do?
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Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
So the trolls in Icelandic folk legends, they are very big. They are giant in size and they live far away from farms. They live up in the mountains or in canyons and in caves somewhere far away in the, in the wilderness. And they are very closely connected to nature. They are often said to be very. I mean, they're said to be very old, they are heathen, they are. They very much hate Christianity and they are very animalistic in a way, monstrous in a way as well. Most often they are cruel and evil. But there are stories of kind trolls and well, in which they are also seem to be ancient but very trustworthy as well. But trolls, they. Other than hating Christianity, most trolls are unable to see the sun light because when the sun hits trolls, they immediately turn into stone. So giant rocks and stones in, in Iceland are not only the, the homes of the hidden people, but also could be trolls that have been turned into stone where, where they stood if they were not careful enough to hide from the sun when it came up.
- [36:19]
Emma
Okay, and who are the hidden people?
- [36:23]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
So the hidden people, or elves, which are terms that I use simultaneously, they are kind of like a reflection of Icelandic society in the 19th century. So they are, for example, the same size as we are. I mean, they have the same height. So they're not small as you can, as they often. Elves are often portrayed, for example, in media and are in other. Other places of the world. They are Christian. They are also farmers, and they are fishermen. They are, though not. They're not just regular farmers and fishermen. They're very good farmers and fishermen. They have a lot of insight. In some stories, they are known to be able to predict the weather, for example, and be able to use some magic. They usually appear to be very beautiful. I mean, Tolkien, for example, drew a lot of inspiration from Icelandic folk legends when writing Lord of the Rings. So they're a little bit similar to maybe the. The elves that we see there. Although in Icelandic folktales, you're not supposed to look for at their pointy ears, but rather you're supposed to look at their nose. Because elves in Icelandic legends only have one nostril, but not two.
- [37:56]
Emma
That's how you know.
- [37:57]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Yes. So, but they live in the hills and they live in rocks. They live closely to the farms. So they're kind of like the invisible neighbors of Icelanders, because usually they are invisible unless that they want to be seen. And there are a lot of stories that were told about the relations between the hidden people and humans and their interactions.
- [38:23]
Emma
And one I read in your book that one scholar, I think, in the early 20th century said there was an example of a woman who had gotten engaged to an elf.
- [38:35]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Yes, exactly.
- [38:37]
Emma
Yeah.
- [38:38]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
And there are a lot of stories of hidden people and humans having children together as well.
- [38:45]
Emma
Right, right. So as we talk about the hidden people and what the stories say about a society, I mean, one thing that we could say about that society at that time is that they needed to help each other a lot, and they needed to work together. And there would be events, for example, of childbirth, where there would be a strong need. Today we have modern hospitals and. And everything. But in those days, maybe you needed a midwife, or maybe you needed sort of a local expert who would be able to come in and help at a really important, crucial time. And it seems like some of these stories about the elves kind of grew out of that, that the elves were doing a lot of this. Of similar kind of tasks, where at moments when humans would need cooperation or would need some expertise. There would be a story where an elf was supplying that kind of assistance.
- [39:49]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Yeah, definitely. And there is a lot of collaboration between the elves and the humans. And we see this especially with women and female elves or hidden women, that they work quite a bit together, as you said, for example, in relation to childbirth and the racing of children, the elves or the humans needing milk to feed children and so on. So there is a lot of those stories that are being told. And I mean, in the case of the midwives to the. To the hidden people, then it's the human women who help out hidden people, because hidden women often, according to the stories, have difficulties giving birth, so they need a human touch when giving birth. So the often human woman is fetched and brought into the big rock of the hidden people, where she touches the hidden woman who's trying to give birth, and then she succeeds in birthing a child. And usually in those stories, the reward for helping out hidden women given birth is that the human woman becomes. Is blessed as midwife, so she will never, for example, lose a child when she is helping human women give birth. So, I mean, this was also maybe some comfort in a very difficult world that you would have this blessing of the, of the hidden people. So you. It will give you some hope and comfort in a very hard time in your life. So.
- [41:33]
Jack Wilson
Right.
- [41:34]
Emma
I mean, childbirth, I have two children myself, and the experience of it and being there with my wife when she was going through pregnancy and childbirth, it's scary enough as it is. And to imagine that in, you know, the 19th century, for example, when there were so many maternal deaths and so many children that were lost, the. That with the birth rate being low and so on, you could see where it would be a great comfort to say, well, we know that so and so is going to come here to help. And she has been blessed by the elves because she was called upon to help them as well. And. And I could see that being a great source of comfort.
- [42:20]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Yeah, definitely. And I mean, a lot of things are reflected in those stories as well. And I mean, the fear of childbirth, we can also also see that in, in those stories and, and other stories as well, because it is those. Those fears perhaps of society that are very much portrayed in the stories. And I mean, telling a story is also a great way to have difficult conversations and to discuss difficult things or things that you might be afraid of, to kind of create that opportunity to have those discussions by telling a story.
- [43:02]
Emma
Right. And we've talked about childbirth, but. But in Looking at the way your book is organized and the chapters and the way they center around specific settings like the farm, the wilderness, the dark, the church, the ocean and the shore, it. It seems like all of those would be sites of potential struggle or doubt or uncertainty or drama that, you know, these stories could step in and kind of say, well, here's what might be most forbidding or potentially terrifying about these natural elements, but here are some stories to help us understand, you know, our own fears about these potential sites of dramatic action, but also kind of a way for us to manage those fears and to figure out how we're going to make it through and to have some confidence and some courage as we face something as forbidding as the Icelandic Ocean, for example, or the shore.
- [44:08]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Yeah, definitely. And I mean, the stories, they are also kind of a handbook in a way that they teach us how to behave. I mean, when the Hidden woman comes and asks for help, you have to help.
- [44:19]
Emma
Yeah, right.
- [44:20]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
You have to. You have to go with her and you have to help those who ask for your. For your help. And you have to listen to warnings before going out to the ocean, and you have to prepare yourself before going out in the wilderness. And you have to offer those refugee who ask for it when they approach your house during a storm or otherwise, you'll be punished. Because those stories, they teach us what is appropriate behavior and what is not. Because you get rewarded in the stories when you do well, and you get punished when you don't.
- [45:00]
Emma
By doing well. It might be. Don't be too reckless, don't be too. You need to have a respect for the power of nature and natural disasters, and you could really be punished for. And putting yourself in harm's way.
- [45:18]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Yeah, definitely. And that appears in. In some of those stories, those ideas that you have to kind of be respectful as well, both towards. Both towards people and other beings, sometimes even animals, as in the case of the. Of the polar bears, for example, and. And then to. Towards nature itself.
- [45:43]
Emma
Right. So how have these stories held up now that we're in the 21st century and there's been urbanization and technology and has that kind of forced a shift away from oral storytelling traditions and these stories and legends in particular, have they faded in importance, would you say? Or are they still coming into the lives of Icelanders?
- [46:13]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
I would say that they have changed quite a bit. So, for example, as we were discussing the Hidden People before, the older stories of the Hidden People, they deal with all this, the fear of childbirth and relations and such similar themes. We still do tell stories of the hidden people today, but those are different stories that represent something that we today maybe fear or hold or is important to us today. Many of the stories that we tell relating to the hidden people are stories of their homes being ruined when, for example, we are building houses or laying new roads or things like that. And in the way is the home of the. Is a home of the hidden people a rock or a hill that has to be moved for that purposes. And then the hidden people, they kind of fight back. And so today they kind of. They were a reflection of society in the 19th century, but now they stand. They kind of got stuck there. They're not driving cars or they don't have any. Any phones. They don't have Facebook, so they're not dealing with.
- [47:27]
Emma
Right, right. The wi fi is down and maybe not that kind of problem.
- [47:33]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
So they kind of today, maybe more represent somehow a simpler past, nature preservance, thoughts of the environment against the expansion of the city. I mean, so they definitely do hold importance in today's society. But there may be different stories that we are telling now that Than we used to tell, because stories always have to have a relevance for them to be told. I mean, or they have to have some purpose. But that purpose can also just be to. It can be something like mediating ideas about taking good care of the landscape and the environment, but it can also be their purpose to be entertaining or to be scary. So, I mean, the ghost stories, of course, we also still see as inspiration in. In books and in the media and in TV shows and films and. And so on. So they are still relevant, I would say, in a part of Icelandic society, but they are still also changing. The Latin tradition is changing and new stories are also being told and coming to light. So I mean. And that is. I would say that is what is interesting to a folklorist, not necessarily only preserving the old stories, but watching how new stories are being told and how old stories are changing and how focus is shifting. I mean, that is what is most important and interesting to folklorists in a way.
- [49:12]
Emma
Yeah, right. And I was struck by a table that you presented which showed survey results from asking about the beliefs in hidden people. And it shows from 1974 to 2007. And it seems like the people who believed that they were definitely true, definitely existed in the category of certain had dropped quite a bit from 24% to 8%. And the people who said it was impossible had risen a similar amount from only 4% in 1974 said they were impossible. And that rose to 27%, I think, in 2023. But. But as you noted, possible barely changed from 1974 to 2007. So the. The category of people who say, I don't know for sure, but I definitely wouldn't rule it out, that seems to have held pretty consistent over time. And. And that's maybe where all of us kind of are somewhere on this spectrum.
- [50:21]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Yeah. So those are surveys that were sent out by Erland Haraldson and Terry Konnes. Terry is also a folklorist. And they're looking at Icelandic folk beliefs. And it was sent out, as you said, first in 1974 and then again in 2006 and 7, and then 2023. And it is interesting, I mean, in case of, for example, the hidden people, as you said, that there are definitely changes and changes are happening in regards to Icelandic folk belief in almost all categories in ghosts and trolls and hidden people and so on. But the biggest amount of people always say that they are uncertain. I mean, there is a possibility that hidden people might exist. And in that way, I think that Icelanders are quite open to there being all sorts of supernatural phenomena that they at least don't want to rule out the possibility. And we often say when we're talking about this and when I'm talking to Icelanders and I'm asking them how they feel about supernatural beings, and. And when I'm asked myself, I always say that. I mean, I. I don't quite know, but if there was a rock that hidden people lived in in my garden and it was the best place for a hot tub, would you ruin it and put the hot tub there, or would you. Would you risk it? And most people, they say that they would not risk it, although they're not sure if they believe it, they still wouldn't risk it. So, I mean, it's also about not taking unnecessary chances.
- [52:06]
Emma
Right, Right. So maybe we could close with this, because one of the things that. That I'm fascinated by when I read things from the past, especially from Europe around this time, and that's the conflicts between Christianity and the heathens. And on the one hand, you know, you've already told us about how the priests were part of the effort to gather these folktales. And on the one hand, you could see Christianity being kind of hostile toward the folklore and saying, well, we're supplying the answers that you need, and we have the truth here. And you don't see hidden people and trolls in the Bible and so on. On the other hand, you could see where they have a Kind of respect for, you know, there may be some things in the world that we don't know and that it's okay to, to have beliefs in things that you can't see and so on. So what do you see? And then what interests me is how this changes over time as populations become more Christian or less Christian and as old stories give way to new teachings and so on. So what do you see in the relationship between groups of Christians and heathens in the folk tales and, and what insights does it give us into how Iceland has been a, a Christian country with, but also with this rich folklore tradition?
- [53:38]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
So I mean, the conflicts between Christianity and the heathens can be seen very widely in the Icelandic folk legends, but it may be is most apparent in the stories of the trolls because the trolls are extremely heathen and they cannot stand the sound of church bells and hate priests and are a threat to society essentially. So that's also how we see the appearance of heath being heath. And that is something that equals being evil in the Icelandic folk legends and something that equals also being a threat to society and the order of society as opposed to that is the Christianity which in the many of the conflicts, I mean, trolls are mainly battling priests. And people who are running away from trolls will seek refuge in the church. And the church in Icelandic folk Latins also symbolizes safety is a place where you should be safe from supernatural beings, although that is not always the case as both trolls and ghosts make their way into the church as well. But anyhow, the Christianity is always like, is supposed to be a source of safety in those, those stories. And, and we also see it in the case of the hidden people because they are Christian. Very big rocks are often said to be the churches of the hidden people. When you're walking by, you can hear their singing from the mass coming from outside the raw. And so you really get this idea that they are Christian and they're not essentially evil. I mean, they can't do bad things, they seek revenge. And an Icelander had like a fearful respect for the hidden people, but they are not initially evil in the same way as the trolls, for example, appear to be. But I think it's quite interesting that. And then again we see the idea that for example, most of the sorcerers in Icelandic folk legends are also priests. So in that way magic and sorcery and Christianity seems to go quite well together. It is maybe a little bit surprising, but it's also in the relations of how these like, supernatural beliefs and, and those stories and Christianity have like been A part of Icelandic society and. And lived side by side all those years. Because they really did that in the 19th century. I mean, during the evening wakes which were held on every farm where people would be working in the. In the living room and they would be telling stories while they worked, they would both read from the Bible and tell stories, Christian stories, and then they would at the same time be telling those folk stories. And in difficult times, as you said as well, I mean, people would kind of just hang on to everything they could. So if you could get help, it maybe didn't matter whether it came from. From God or if it came from. From magic, if you were praying or if you were doing magic or if you were getting help from the hidden people, just as long as you were getting and trying to do everything you could.
- [57:10]
Emma
Somehow it's a kind of story that can deliver happy endings, no matter whether it's coming from God or your relationship with Jesus or because you were fortunate to have some hidden people who were there to help out.
- [57:28]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Yeah, exactly. And Icelanders never really had a problem with mixing all those things together somehow. And I mean, a lot of the Icelandic folk tales also built on those Christian values that you have to help those who need help and. And so on. So, I mean, a lot of those stories are being echoed, but not all of the. All of the messages we get from the folk legends, though, are as positive. I mean, we also get this idea of. That are maybe a little bit like patriarchal, that women should do certain things and shouldn't do others.
- [58:06]
Jack Wilson
And.
- [58:07]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
And that's your status in society has also an effect on what you can't and can't do and all that. So I mean, the stories are also affected both by those ideas.
- [58:20]
Jack Wilson
Right.
- [58:21]
Emma
Well, I feel like we're just getting started, but we've run out of time. The book is called Ghosts, Trolls and the Hidden People, An Anthology of Icelandic Folk Legends. Darun Osk Jonstatter, thank you so much for joining me on the history of literature.
- [58:35]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Thank you.
- [58:43]
Jack Wilson
Okay, there we go. Wasn't that fun?
- [58:46]
Emma
That is going to do it for the History of Literature for this episode of it.
- [58:51]
Jack Wilson
I'm so glad you joined us. Thank you. And thanks also to our Icelandic helper, Tarun Ohn's daughter. Is she an elf? Maybe. Well, if she is one, I believe in her, but I'm kidding, of course. She's a real person, a real human person, maybe an elf at heart from time to time, but a real person with a real book, which you can find at bookstores everywhere. Speaking of real books, we'll be diving into some real books soon with perhaps the wildest story that F. Scott Fitzgerald ever wrote. Mike Palindrome will be here to help us navigate that one. And Huck Finn's Gym is around the corner. And some more Mark Twain. And how about some Patrick o' Brien and some Franz Kafka? I'm Jack Wilson. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time. SA.
- [60:12]
Zibby Owens
Hi, this is Zibby Owens, host of Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know. Get insider insights and connect with guests like Grammy Award winning singer Alicia Keys, critically acclaimed author Judy Blume, and Academy Award winning screenwriter John Irving. Every single day with Totally Booked, you aren't just listening, you're part of the story. So don't miss out. Follow Totally Booked with Zibby on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now.
- [61:02]
Unknown
I'm Courtney Act. Many of you may know me from RuPaul's Drag Race, celebrity Big Brother, Dancing with the Stars, or probably my hit album Kaleidoscope.
- [61:14]
Dagrun Osk Jonsdottir
Well, guess what?
- [61:14]
Unknown
I have got a brand new show called R and R with Courtney act and I want you to check it out. You know I hate small talk. I want to go deep and I want to go quickly. And on my show, we do just that. In today's world, it feels really polarized and we're more connected than ever. But really, we can feel isolated and I don't like that. I want the story shared here on RR to make us realize that our similarities are greater than our differences. So join me and my fabulous guests like Nicole Byer, Tom Daly, Margaret Cho, Katia Adore Delano, Jackie Beat, and many more. If you're looking for some rest and relaxation, you've come to the wrong place because we are peeling back the layers of superficiality and we're getting down to the real stuff. Follow R and R with Courtney act on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you're listening now.