The History of Literature – Episode 726

England vs France: A Literary Battle Royale (with Mike Palindrome) – RECLAIMED

Date: August 18, 2025
Host: Jacke Wilson
Guest: Mike Palindrome

Overview

In this lively, imaginative episode, host Jacke Wilson and his returning guest, the ever-enthusiastic Mike Palindrome, pit two literary juggernauts—England and France—against each other in an old-fashioned "battle royale," picking five authors apiece to field their nation's greatest literary army. The tone is witty, sometimes irreverent, and rooted in the pair’s deep bibliophilia and affection for intellectual gamesmanship. Along the way, they explore both nations’ literary traditions, personal biases, and the cultural nuances that make the rivalry so enduring.

Key Discussion Points & Structure

The Rivalry: History and Setup

• The England/France Rivalry:
  Jacke opens by referencing the thousand-year "love-hate" relationship between the English and the French (07:48):

  “These are close neighbors we're talking about. Very close. Like unfriendly relatives sharing a flat...”
  He points out their proximity yet cultural distinction, touching on historical wars and mutual fascination, with music, cuisine, and especially literature flowing both ways.

• Format and Rules:
  Jacke explains the premise ([25:01]):

  “We're each going to pick an army of five great authors, and I'm going to put my five up against yours, and we will see whose literature is the strongest. If the battle were not soldiers and generals, but novelists and poets, who would carry the day?”
  Jacke fights for England (England only, no Ireland or Scotland), while Mike, a self-professed "first love" Francophile, fights for France.

Picking Literary Champions

France:

1. Marcel Proust (27:49) (Mike)
   • The ultimate literary marathoner, whose "Remembrance of Things Past" rewards readers’ patience.
   • Quote:

     “If I can be a little spiritual, the book starts to love you back.” (28:37)

2. Gustave Flaubert (34:40) (Mike)
   • Master of “le mot juste,” father of modern literary realism.
   • Quote:

     “Madame Bovary, possibly the greatest novel under, I don't know, 500 pages...line by line, it's just a beautiful, beautiful novel.” (35:25)

3. Albert Camus (40:08)
   • Existential wild card, the “fearlessness in which he wrote” is praised.
4. Charles Baudelaire (45:49)
   • Paragon of poetic innovation and bohemian Parisian energy, lauded as perhaps the “greatest poet ever”.
   • Quote:

     “I just feel like he raised poetry to a level of just the highest art. I mean, dispense with fiction, dispense with painting, everyone should return to poetry.” (46:10)

5. Stendhal (50:54)
   • Chosen over Balzac; his novels are seen as embodying French history, philosophy, and a unique sense of “being French”.
   • Quote:

     “For me, [Stendhal] is really just the axis, the touch point of so many different things going on in French philosophy and Napoleon…” (51:37)

England:

1. William Shakespeare (32:30) (Jacke)
   • The “nuclear weapon” of English letters, exceeding any national or linguistic boundary.
   • Quote:

     “Shakespeare is as good as anyone the world has produced at doing anything. He's Einstein or Newton.” (32:30)

2. Jane Austen (with backup from the 19th-century English novelists) (38:03)
   • Austen as “general,” Dickens, the Brontës, George Eliot in support.
   • Quote:

     “Jane doesn't really need to take a backseat to anyone. She's so sharp, so observant, so witty.” (38:58)

3. Virginia Woolf (with 20th-century Modernists) (43:39)
   • General Woolf is supported by Orwell, Auden or Eliot, Larkin, Graham Greene, Iris Murdoch, and others.
   • Quote:

     “This is where the novel grew up...Virginia Woolf is on the case. She was as sharp a critic as she was as glorious a novelist.” (44:13)

4. The Romantic Poets (General: Wordsworth) (48:29)
   • Wordsworth, Coleridge, Keats, Shelley, Byron, Blake, plus honorary Mary Shelley.
   • Quote:

     “They really brought in this...that poets need to feel something… Live and love and open up your vein and bleed onto the page.” (49:17)

5. Zadie Smith (and contemporary heavyweights) (53:06)
   • Smith leads a diverse squad: Salman Rushdie, Martin Amis, Julian Barnes, Ishiguro, Hilary Mantel, Ian McEwan.
   • Quote:

     “There's a bit of...let's catch our breath here, I think, as the industry kind of declines. But what they do in this new landscape is...ideas are bubbling over even as the novel shrinks.” (53:21)

Notable Benchwarmers & Honorable Mentions:

• France: Hugo, Dumas, Sartre, Beauvoir, Jules Verne, Balzac, Rimbaud, Racine, Verlaine, Rabelais, Voltaire, Maupassant, Molière, Houellebecq (56:11).
• England: Pope, Dryden, Dr. Johnson, Defoe, Fielding, Smollett, supporting Douglas (53:40).

Spirited Exchanges & Literary Commentary

• Cultural Comparison and Literary Superiority
  • France’s “Blood” vs. England’s “Customs” (52:53):

    “France, we're talking about the basic rights of men.”
    “[For England] ...they feel being English in their customs. [For France] ...they feel being French in their blood.”

• On Proust:
  • “The difficulty of this book is...part of the reward is that you couldn't write a book that was tightly plotted, that was as just world encompassing the way Proust did.” (29:34)
• On Jane Austen:
  • “She’s the one sitting quietly in the corner while the blowhards who can’t stop talking take up all the oxygen...If you wander over, you think: my god, she’s the smartest one here.” (39:00)
• On Flaubert’s Influence:
  • “Possibly the most influential writer ever...He lay the groundwork for the way you could structure the novel and the way he wrote.” (36:13)
• On Camus:
  • “There was nobody like him. And the fearlessness in which he wrote...It was maybe my first French literary love.” (40:55)
• On the English Moderns:
  • “This is the thing. George Orwell, you know that if he was French, you would have him in your five. He's in my list...just hanging around...overqualified.” (45:14)
• On the Romantic Poets:
  • “Poets need to feel something...these coughing, drug-addled wretches were gazing out at the landscape and writing like bandits. And it’s them that we can thank for hundreds of years of poetry.” (49:24)

Memorable Moments & Banter

• The Collective Noun for Wars:
  Jacke humorously proposes calling a group of wars a “monger of wars.” (15:23)
• Proust’s Ego:
  The tidbit about Proust paying for positive reviews, delighting Mike in its “very French” scheming. (32:05)
• Parisian Cafe vs English Pub:
  Comparing scenes of literary culture: “What’s really coming across here is the Parisian Cafe with Camus and Baudelaire versus...a cottage or the pubs in England.” (47:41)
• Battlefield Visuals:
  From Jane Austen “manning a cannon and opening fire” (40:00) to the Romantic poets in “scarves and aviator goggles...all aviators...standing by the fireplace and threatening to put a dagger in their hearts.” (49:14)
• Shakespeare, the “Nuclear Option”:
  Jacke: “The problem is, Shakespeare is like a nuclear weapon. He's like a Gatling gun on a field of horses and cavalry with sabers.” (57:10)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Contextual Banter & Rivalry Intro: 07:48 – 12:01
• Rules of the Game Explained: 25:01 – 26:29
• Mike's Picks (Proust, Flaubert): 27:49 – 37:47
• Jacke's Picks (Shakespeare, Austen, Modernists): 32:30 – 53:21
• Baudelaire Discussion & Poetry: 45:49 – 48:12
• Romantics & “Feeling” in Poetry: 48:29 – 50:54
• Final Picks, National Identity, Self-confidence: 52:17 – 56:11
• Benchwarmers and Honorable Mentions: 56:11 – 57:31
• Humorous Deconstruction, Who Won?: 57:31 – 60:18

Notable Quotes

• “When it comes to literature, Shakespeare is as good as anyone the world has produced, and he's as good as anyone the world has produced at doing anything. It's—he's Einstein or Newton.” – Jacke (32:30)
• “If I can be a little spiritual, the book [Proust’s] starts to love you back.” – Mike (28:37)
• “I picked Stendhal because I just think the substance of his novels represents the real history of France, that maybe it's the greatest nation on earth. I'll just throw that out there.” – Mike (51:10)
• On Camus: “There was nobody like him. And the fearlessness in which he wrote…It was maybe my first French literary love.” – Mike (40:55)
• “Jane doesn't really need to take a backseat to anyone. She's so sharp, so observant, so witty. Her plots are so good, they move forward so well.” – Jacke (38:58)
• “Possibly the most influential writer ever...he lay the groundwork for the way you could structure the novel and the way he wrote.” – Mike on Flaubert (36:24)
• “Shakespeare is like a nuclear weapon. He's like a Gatling gun on a field of horses and cavalry at sabers.” – Jacke (57:31)

Tone and Takeaways

• The episode is rich with literary insight, banter, and good-natured one-upmanship.
• Both hosts indulge in playful stereotypes and affectionate digs at each nation’s literary “personality”—the flamboyant French, the reserved yet relentless English.
• The author-drafting game leads to a lively discussion of literary influence, technical innovation, and the role of cultural identity in shaping the canon.
• The final score? Even as Jacke claims Shakespeare as a trump card, Mike’s impassioned defense of individual French greatness keeps things honest. The “battle” ultimately affirms that both nations have transformed world literature—but in fascinatingly distinct ways.

Suggested Listen For…

• Readers interested in big-picture literary history with a playful twist
• Fans of literary “drafts” and canon-building debates
• Francophiles, Anglophiles, and “literary sports fans” of all types

To hear the full depth, range, and laughter, listen to the episode at History of Literature or your favorite podcast platform.