The History of Literature Podcast

Episode 732: The Bible (#18 GBOAT) | The Diaries of Samuel Pepys (with Kate Loveman) | Health Advice

Host: Jacke Wilson
Guest: Kate Loveman (Professor of Early Modern Literature and Culture, University of Leicester)
Date: September 11, 2025

Episode Overview

Jacke Wilson continues the "25 for 25: Greatest Books of All Time" series, reaching #18 on the list—The Bible. The episode opens with reflections on the Bible’s literary and cultural stature, with notable literary quotes about the text. The latter half features an in-depth interview with Kate Loveman about her new book The Strange History of Samuel Pepys' Diary. Loveman offers insights on Pepys’ life, his diary’s content and legacy, and how it has shaped our understanding of the Restoration era. The show also includes a playful health advice segment from Jacke, focusing on circadian rhythms.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. Health Advice: Circadian Rhythms and Sunlight

Segment start: [04:00]

• Jacke’s humorous take on health trends: He notes that beyond the basics of diet, exercise, and sleep, new advice about circadian rhythms is circulating.
  • Best tip: Go outside into direct sunlight for 5–10 minutes within an hour of waking.
  • He jokes about ways to "make it efficient," e.g., walking the dog, considering taking up smoking (in jest), and then settles on drinking coffee outdoors.
  • Jacke riffs on how stripping off clothes could make the process faster:

    “So then it occurred to me, well, what if I go outside in the sunlight and I take my shirt off? I could cut that time in half, right? ... So if I went outside completely naked, doubling my surface area, I could cut it down again to two minutes, right?” ([08:40])

  • Self-deprecating conclusion:

    “So if you see a man sprinting through your neighborhood at the crack of dawn, stark naked, holding a cup of coffee, don’t be alarmed. Please don’t call the authorities. Just smile, shake your head, and say to yourself, there goes Jack Wilson, the healthiest man I know.” ([09:55])

II. The Bible: 10 Takes from Literary Figures

Segment start: [15:00]

• Context: Introduction to The Bible’s placement as #18 in the "Greatest Books of All Time."
• Jacke reflects on the complexity of ranking The Bible, given its spiritual significance to some and peripheral status to others.
  • Previous podcast episodes on The Bible and its parts are referenced ([16:40]).
• A curated list of 10 literary quotations about The Bible:
  1. Augustine:

     “We must surrender ourselves to the authority of Holy Scripture for it can neither mislead nor be misled.”
     — on the infallibility of the text ([18:50])

  2. John Bunyan:

     “I have sometimes seen more in a line of the Bible than I could well tell how to stand under. And yet at another time, the whole Bible hath been to me as dry as a stick.”
     — on the variable experience of reading scripture ([19:50])

  3. Kierkegaard:

     “To read the Bible as God's word, one must read it with his heart in his mouth, on tiptoe with eager expectancy...”
     — on the devotional approach vs. academic reading ([20:30])

  4. Mark Twain:

     “It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me. It's the parts that I do understand.”
     — on the challenge of the Bible’s plainest messages ([21:10])

  5. Charles Dickens:

     “Because it is the best book that ever was or will be known in the world and because it teaches you the best lessons by which any human creature... can possibly be guided.”
     — from a letter to his son ([22:20])

  6. T.S. Eliot:

     “Those who talk of the Bible as a monument of English prose are merely admiring it as a monument over the grave of Christianity.”
     — critiques literary admiration that sidelines religious import ([23:30])

  7. George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans):

     “I regard these writings as histories consisting of mingled truth, fiction..."
     — a historically aware, secular view ([24:40])

  8. Dan Savage (columnist):

     “The Bible is only as good and decent as the person reading it.”
     — the importance of interpretation ([25:40])

  9. Shakespeare:

     “The devil can cite scripture for his purpose.”
     — highlights potential for misuse ([26:15])

  10. Ambrose Bierce (via The Devil’s Dictionary):

      Christian: "One who follows the teachings of Christ insofar as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin."
      — with a satirical poem reflecting on religious hypocrisy ([27:00])

• Jacke’s key observation: The Bible’s meaning and authority are always shaped by the reader’s approach and context.

III. Interview: Kate Loveman on Samuel Pepys' Diary

Segment start: [32:39]

A. Introduction to Pepys and His Diary

• Kate Loveman: Professor, early modernist, expert on Pepys.
• Pepys' diary covers 1660–1669 in London, written in shorthand—partly for privacy ([32:59]).
• Major events: Great Fire of London, the plague, Restoration politics ([33:30]).
• "He wrote about a million and a quarter words... He stopped in May 1669, because he feared that writing it was harming his sight." — [34:18]

B. Pepys’ Life and Social Standing

• Modest origins; father a tailor, mother a servant ([35:03]).
• Benefited from the patronage of his powerful relative, Sir Edward Montagu, and became a key figure in the Royal Navy ([35:12]).
• Not initially recognized as brilliant, but increasingly influential ([37:09]).

C. Content, Purpose, and Style of the Diary

• Pepys’ motives:
  • Practical: keep records for career and health ([40:04]).
  • Emotional: diary as a private confidant and venting space ([40:48]).
  • No explicit evidence he considered his thoughts genius—"genius" used in the sense of temperament ([42:02]).
• Written in shorthand and with code-switching to keep some passages private (sex, bodily functions, etc.)—he knew it was scandalous ([42:27]).
• Left the diary and entire library to Magdalene College, Cambridge—preserved as he mandated ([44:04]).

D. Reliability and Legacy as a Historical Source

• Generally a trustworthy eyewitness, especially for major events ([46:54]).
• Blind spots particularly evident in his own misbehavior, e.g., ambiguous or euphemistic accounts of sexual exploits ([47:35]).
• Not a “candid tell-all” by modern standards; self-reflection is limited, and focus is often external ([48:56]).

E. Reading the Shorthand and the Diary’s Material History

• Only about ten people can currently read Pepys’ shorthand ([52:13]).
• Longhand words inside the diary function like highlights/bold—often for surprising details
  • Example: “Piss” written in longhand at Charles II’s coronation—possibly for memory/summarization ([54:03]).
• The original diary remains at Magdalene College, Cambridge—a time capsule as Pepys desired ([55:39]).

F. Publication and Shifting Reputations

• For over a century, the diary sat largely unread due to the shorthand ([59:23]).
• First full transcription and partial publication in early 19th century—heavily censored ([60:45]).
  • "Victorian censored version... cuts out most of Pepys personal life. It’s really about the King, the court, some events... much less about Pepys home life... things that we actually really value in the diary today were often not in this first edition." ([61:10])
• Modern editions and perspectives value the social history—the daily lives, servant dynamics, and Pepys’ flawed humanity ([63:13]).

G. Enduring Popularity and Modern Relevance

• The diary brings the past "close," especially during crises (e.g., WWII Blitz, Covid pandemic) ([70:37]; [72:15]).
• Comfort found in Pepys’ relatability, flaws, and quotidian concerns as well as major events.

“This happened again during the COVID pandemic. People turned to Samuel Pepys diary and are reading it to find out about what happens in quarantine, you know, sort of for lessons, but also for kind of comfort…” — Kate Loveman ([72:15])

H. Final Thoughts

• Pepys would be pleased with his fame, though perhaps frustrated that it rests mostly on the diary rather than his naval work ([69:05]).
• The evolving image of Pepys over centuries is shaped by selective publication, evolving values, and the ongoing resonance of his detailed, sometimes scandalous, sometimes ordinary records.

Memorable Quotes

• On circadian rhythms:

  “You have to do it within an hour of waking up, though... But depending on where you live and what season it is and what time you wake up... might not be so easy.” — Jacke ([05:46])

• On reading the diary in shorthand:

  “He kind of uses his longhand almost as a way of writing things in bold or capital letters. And those are not always the things you might expect...” — Kate Loveman ([54:09])

• On Pepys’ flawed yet comforting humanity:

  “Pepys isn’t some great hero. Or at least the version of Pepys that is more comforting is the version who is flawed, who... complains about, you know, the fact that the price of eels has gone up when a heroic person would be more worried about the fate of the nation.” — Kate Loveman ([71:51])

Notable Segments & Timestamps

• Health Advice – Circadian Rhythms: [04:00]–[10:00]
• 10 Literary Takes on the Bible: [15:00]–[31:00]
• Interview: Kate Loveman on Pepys’ Diary: [32:39]–[73:33]
  • Pepys’ Life and Diary: [32:39]–[46:00]
  • Reliability and Social Context: [46:21]–[50:00]
  • Reading the Shorthand: [52:13]–[55:30]
  • History of Publication/Censorship: [57:03]–[63:09]
  • Modern Reception/Enduring Appeal: [70:37]–[73:24]

Episode Tone

Warm, witty, and insightful. Jacke blends humor (especially in health advice) with thoughtful literary commentary. The conversation with Kate Loveman is scholarly yet accessible, focusing on the diary’s complexity, relevance, and continued fascination.

For New Listeners

This episode stands alone and provides:

• An engaging literary-theoretical exploration of The Bible’s status as literature.
• Accessible introduction to Samuel Pepys’ Diary—its creation, content, scandal, censorship, and modern relevance.
• Playful and personal moments with Jacke Wilson.
• Insights that connect literature, history, and contemporary experience.

Recommended for anyone interested in literary history, diaries, or the ways literature shapes personal and collective memory.