736 Jane Austen's Favorite Brother, Henry (with Christopher Herbert) | A Letter from the South of France | My Last Book with Nicholas Jenkins

Summary

The History of Literature, Episode 736

Jane Austen's Favorite Brother, Henry (with Christopher Herbert) | A Letter from the South of France | My Last Book with Nicholas Jenkins
September 29, 2025 | Host: Jacke Wilson

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Episode Overview

In this wide-ranging literary episode, host Jacke Wilson embarks on a journey through the world of Jane Austen via her lesser-known but influential brother, Henry, with guest Dr. Christopher Herbert. The episode also features a heartfelt listener letter from France and an evocative reflection by Nicholas Jenkins on the book he’d choose as his last. It’s an episode rich with personal stories, deeper literary insight, and a celebration of the bonds formed through books and family.

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Segments and Timestamps

• Listener Letter from France (03:09–12:37)
• Interview: Dr. Christopher Herbert on Henry Austen (12:37–53:27)
• The 'Last Book' Question with Nicholas Jenkins (54:53–60:44)

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Listener Letter from the South of France

Starts at 03:09

Key Themes:

• Listener Kai, a 22-year-old from Melbourne, writes from the south of France, describing a transformative solo trip through Europe, accompanied by the podcast and great literature.
• Kai recounts literary pilgrimages to sites associated with Kafka, Joyce, E.M. Forster, Dante, and most of all, plans to visit Marcel Proust’s Combray.
• Jacke responds by reflecting on the comfort and companionship literature provides to travelers, sharing personal anecdotes about always needing a “big book” while on the road.

Notable Quote:

“I have been fortunate enough to make pilgrimages to Kafka in Prague, James Joyce in Trieste, E.M. Forster and Dante in Florence. Most exciting of all, I plan to stay in Illiers-Combray and pay homage to my favorite writer... Marcel Proust.” – Kai (04:49)

Memorable Host Reflection:

“I know that feeling well, all too well, of wanting big thick books while on a journey... Books that will last a long time. As if you're buying literature by the pound.” – Jacke (07:25)

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Jane Austen's Favorite Brother, Henry — Interview with Dr. Christopher Herbert

Main segment: 12:37–53:27

Introduction

Dr. Christopher Herbert, author of Jane Austen’s Favorite Brother, Henry, joins Jacke to illuminate the life of Henry Austen and his crucial role in his sister’s story.

Why Jane Austen and Her Circle Matter

(13:06–17:12)

• Dr. Herbert, self-described as not a lifelong Austen scholar, notes he returned to her work later in life after encouragement from his wife, an English teacher.
• Both host and guest marvel at Austen’s “disarming,” seemingly effortless writing, her wit, and psychological insight.
• Jacke observes that Austen’s authorial intimacy leads readers to scrutinize her relationships and family, seeking parallels between real and fictional characters.

Notable Quotes:

“Her writing is so very, very clever. But on the surface, it looks easy, as though it’s just flowed from her pen and she hasn’t given it a thought. But actually... you’d give anything, wouldn’t you, to invent a phrase as good as ‘It is a truth universally acknowledged...’” – Christopher Herbert (14:31)

“Her novels... are small in the sense they don’t sprawl. We can identify with the characters, get to know them, and actually become fond of them or irritated by them. It’s that smallness which I think is attractive.” – Christopher Herbert (15:34)

Childhood and Family Dynamics

(18:21–25:18)

• The Austens were a family of eight children, raised in rural Hampshire, both physically and socially isolated but intellectually lively.
• Their mother taught them to read; their father provided a broad—if classical—education, and the home also functioned as an informal boarding school for other boys.
• Relationships among siblings often evolved through intermittent periods together or apart (due to schooling or other obligations), with letters providing continuity.

Notable Quote:

“David Cecil... referred to the Austens as having a kind of corporate personality. And I think it’s a beautiful idea.” – Christopher Herbert (23:53)

Henry’s Trajectory: Education, Militia, and Risk-taking

(27:19–32:54)

• Unlike his siblings, Henry’s path was not predetermined (older brothers claimed the family role in the church, and one was adopted by wealthy kin).
• Henry joined the Oxfordshire Militia, quickly rising to assistant paymaster, showcasing his charm, extroversion, and logistical skills.
• This led him into regimental agency and eventually banking—a field full of opportunity and peril during the era.

Notable Quote:

“If you wanted to be a major... you just go along to Henry and say, ‘I’ve got £500, I’d like to be a major.’... It was legitimate, but right on the edge—legitimacy, really.” – Christopher Herbert (31:16)

Why Henry Was Jane’s Favorite

(35:22–38:38)

• Henry was a risk-taker, charming, mischievous, always upbeat, and deeply loyal—strikingly different from older, more staid siblings like James.
• He was instrumental in getting Jane’s first novel published, leveraging his connections and persuasive abilities.

Notable Quotes:

“He was a risk-taker, and I think she probably enjoyed that... always coming up smiling.” – Christopher Herbert (35:40)

“Without Henry, Jane’s novels… might never have come down to us, which would be a terrible loss.” – Christopher Herbert (36:33)

• Their bond was strong and reciprocal: Jane was present to care for Henry during his wife’s illness; Henry, for Jane at her worst; Jane left Henry money in her will.

Notable Quotes:

"A kind of instance of that is that when she died, he was the only brother that she named in her will, I think I'm right in saying this, to whom she left money. ...It was a very affectionate and trusting and equitable relationship." – Christopher Herbert (38:38)

“Oh, What a Henry”: Henry Ascendant and Henry’s Fall

(40:03–46:53)

• The famous phrase stemmed from Henry’s dazzling high-society escapades, “knocking around with the crème de la crème of London society.”
• But Henry’s banking ambitions eventually led to financial disaster: bad loans (often to aristocrats), overextension, and unlucky timing left him bankrupt and stripped of his social standing.

Notable Quotes:

“You can almost hear her smiling in a kind of exasperated affection when she said it... Only Henry could get himself up there with the Prince Regent and all that lot.” – Christopher Herbert (41:43)

“He was slightly, I think, besotted with the aristocracy... He felt you could trust an English aristocrat. Well, you couldn’t, of course, and they didn’t always repay him.” – Christopher Herbert (42:35)

Resilience and Later Life

(46:53–53:03)

• After bankruptcy, Henry’s optimism prevailed: he was helped by his brother Edward, took on caring for nephews, and then, remarkably, became an industrious clergyman (“perpetual curate”) and schoolmaster.
• Henry remained energetic and fulfilled in this second career, and never simply played the “gentleman vicar.”

Notable Quotes:

“He was getting on with the job… not being a kind of elegant, gentlemanly vicar who would play whist with the ladies in the big house.” – Christopher Herbert (50:55)

“My kind of strapline really is: no Henry, no Jane. I think that's true.” – Christopher Herbert (52:54)

Host Reflection:

"Instead of being jealous of success and resentful...another path is to just be gracious and helpful and take some pride in other people's accomplishments...and we can come down in history as more of a hero than a villain." – Jacke (51:05)

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The 'Last Book' Question with Nicholas Jenkins

Starts at 54:53

Key Highlights

• Nicholas Jenkins is asked what he wants his last book to be.
• He answers by reflecting on how every book might need to be treated as one’s last, emphasizing attention and gleaning meaning even from books we don’t initially love.
• Specifically, he selects Louise Glück’s final poetry collection, Winter Recipes from the Collective, especially the last poem “Song.”
• Reads the closing lines, connecting the endurance of “the fire” (imagination, inspiration) to the value of literature at life’s end.

Notable Quotes:

“I'm going to try and act in the spirit that every book I read is the last book that I might read. ...there’s always something inside a book to be gleaned.” – Nicholas Jenkins (55:33)

“Ah, he says, you are dreaming again. And I say, then I'm glad I dream. The fire is still alive. The fire is still alive.” – Louise Glück, read by Nicholas Jenkins (57:48)

“Sometimes we get into this lazy way of thinking about imagination as being opposed to truth or the real... In the imagination we can find the truth.” – Nicholas Jenkins (59:35)

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Final Thoughts and Takeaways

• The episode is a celebration of the enduring bonds literature weaves—between siblings, between authors and readers, and among fellow enthusiasts.
• Henry Austen emerges as not just Jane’s enabler, but as a vivid, complex figure in his own right: a charming, risk-taking, resilient soul whose ups and downs provided Jane both material and moral support.
• Listeners are reminded that sometimes, being the enabler, the sidekick, the brother (or friend) who champions the artist, is a vital role.
• Both in life and in literature, to live in “the fire” of the imagination is to keep truth and hope alive, even at the end.

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Selected Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “Her writing is so very, very clever. But on the surface, it looks easy... But actually, when you analyze it, my goodness me.” – Christopher Herbert (14:31)
• “Without Henry, Jane's novels… might never have come down to us.” – Christopher Herbert (36:33)
• “No Henry, no Jane. I think that's true.” – Christopher Herbert (52:54)
• “I'm glad I dream. The fire is still alive.” – Louise Glück via Nicholas Jenkins (57:48)
• “In the imagination we can find the truth.” – Nicholas Jenkins (59:35)

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Episode Recommendations

• For Austen fans: Discover the pivotal personal and professional support behind Jane’s literary legacy.
• For seekers of literary companionship: The listener letter highlights how literature can turn solitude into joyful exploration.
• For anyone wrestling with ambition and resilience: Draw inspiration from Henry Austen’s risk-taking, downfall, and return—with pride and humility.

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Further Resources

• Christopher Herbert’s Book: Jane Austen’s Favorite Brother, Henry
• Nicholas Jenkins’ previous Auden episode: #657 in The History of Literature archive

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Summary by History of Literature Podcast Summarizer – September 2025

Transcript

[A]

The History of Literature Podcast is a member of the podglomerate Network and Lit Hub Radio. Hello dear listeners and my friends. This is Jack Wilson reminding you that the History of Literature Podcast is going on tour. It's still a few months away, but the deadline is this month, September. That's your chance to put down your deposit if you would like to go. Let me tell you a little more about the trip. In May of 2026, I will be accompanying a small group of travelers on a trip through London, Oxford and Bath with stops at literary sites, houses of authors, restaurants where they ate and so on. It will be a chance to meet some like minded people as we all enjoy literature and life. Nice hotels and restaurants, lots of meals and fellowship, traveling together in the land of Shakespeare and Jane Austen and Charles Dickens, Dr. Johnson and more. And some special guests, people you've heard on the show will be joining us to shake our hands and answer our questions and generally participate in this celebration of books and writers and all the things we like best here at the podcast. As I said though, the signup is only open through September. That's so we can plan the trip. That's right, you have until the end of the month to secure your spot. So head over to John Shores Travel, that's our partner who's taking care of all the logistics and put down your deposit. That's John Shores S H O R S. Or you can go to historyofliterature.com and follow the links there. Join us for an experience you can't get anywhere else because you deserve it.

[B]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail] hello.

[A]

Today on the podcast we look at Jane Austen's favorite brother. Who was he and what made him stand out? And what does it tell us about Jane's fascinating life? We'll ask an expert. Plus, we hear from an Australian listener who writes from the south of France with a list of books and a love for literature. And we hear from author Nicholas Jenkins, expert in the poetry and life of W.H. auden, who tells us about his choice for the last book he will ever read. That's all coming up today on the History of literature. Okay, here we go. Welcome to the podcast.

[C]

Let's get started.

[A]

I'm Jack Wilson, your host. Here we go. Subject Letter of Appreciation Dear Jack, My name is Kai and I am a 22 year old, recently graduated student from Melbourne, Australia. At this moment, however, I find myself far from home, writing to you from the south of France, being two months into a three month solo trip of Europe. During these two months your voice has been my faithful companion, a welcome voice of warmth and witness to my falling in love with this place and with the most brilliant of all things, travel. That magic word that means so much for so many I am seeing sights I have only ever read about in books. Seeing these sights with my own eyes is overwhelming and stirs a desire to see more, to somehow live more. I have been a listener of your podcast for several years now, finding you while working a summer gardening job a few years back to pay for university. The first episode I fell in love with was your episode on Toni Morrison. Your words made me tingle and I remember thinking, he gets it. He gets the beauty of literature and the way words can reach out like a hand and grab you. From then on, I was a voracious listener and your episodes, new and old, got me through the stifling heat of Australian summers and became a part of my daily routine for several summers and beyond, then autumns, winters and springs. And now they get me through long travel days and lonely nights when I have no one else to talk to or listen to. When not listening to your podcast, I have been tackling Dostoevsky's masterwork, the Brothers Karamazov, the only book thick enough to last me two months. And to break it up, re listening to the episodes where you read short stories. My favorite of yours is Jack London's To Build a Fire. As well as this, I have been fortunate enough to make a pilgrimage, to make pilgrimages to Kafka in Prague, James Joyce in Trieste, E.M. forster and Dante in Florence. Most exciting of all, I plan to stay in Ilie Combrai and pay homage to my favorite writer of all time, the one and only Marcel Proust, and fully imbibe where his genius germinated. This email is already long enough, but best wishes Jack and I look forward to many more years of episodes. There are far too many books and far too little time, but I know for as long as I am reading, I will be listening to your podcast all the best, Kai. P.S. i always loved your travel stories and now I have some of mine own, mine own. I wonder if that's a typo or If Kai has been so immersed in literature and archaic forms and locutions that he's channeling Shakespeare, who talked about mine own in the Merchant of Venice or the King James Bible. And guess what? Kipling was also partial to the phrase. I can't get too distracted by that because I need to thank Kai for the wonderful email. I'm so glad to hear that you're seeing living, listening and reading. I know that feeling well, all too well, of wanting big thick books while on a journey. For me it was Proust, but Brothers K is good for that too. Books that will last a long time. As if you're buying literature by the pound. I used to have this fear of running out. What if I'm on some 10 hour bus ride and two hours in, I finish my book, what will I do for eight hours? And I remember too, my friends Jean Marie and Rosa Marie, the French Canadians I met while in Tibet, who told me. Actually Rosa Marie told me this, that Jean Marie was wild and reckless and wanted to travel everywhere and spend all their money on travel and travel and travel and didn't want to work. And she told me that she was willing to go, she would, she would go along with that. But before they left on their years long journey around the world, she made him buy her a whole roomful of books. All the shelves full of books, she said, just waiting for them when they returned. And she said if we lose everything. And she said that in a way that made it sound like she was kind of expecting to lose everything. It was more of a when than an if. But she said if we lose everything, I will at least have books to read. Her favorite author was James Michener, I recall. I imagine her now. She was older than me by quite a bit, but in my imagination she's only aged a year or two more. And she and Jean Marie are broke, but they have their books and her mind is in Texas or Hawaii or wherever Michener is taking her, while Jean Marie sits quietly in the other room gazing out the window at the horizon, a look of contentment on his face. They have their books and their memories. And now so do you, Kai. It's time for you to build. Thank you for the email and the kind words about the show and good luck to you on your journey. Speaking of journeys and speaking of building memories, if you're here because you love literature and or because you love Jane Austen, well, have I got a deal for you. The History of Literature Podcast tour. We're headed to Literary England in May of 2026 and we're taking deposits for those of you who would like to secure a spot. We're keeping this open through the end of September. Now, we might extend that a bit, but I wouldn't count on it. Don't hesitate because September 30th is the official closing and we want to accommodate as many people as we can while still keeping that classic small group feel. We're not going to go too big if it comes to that, but we also have to have enough people to make sure that we can afford to do this. So I will be on the tour joining you and your fellow listeners and literature lovers as we all travel through London with stops at the Globe Theater and the Dickens Museum and Dr. Johnson's House, among other places. Then, oh boy. Special guests see in Oxford with some renowned scholars and we'll see all of the great libraries and pubs and lunch spots and so on there. The land of Tolkien and C.S. lewis and scholars that you've heard on this podcast before. Get to meet them in person, shake their hand, ask them a few questions and then the crowning jewel is that word, the crowning jewel, the ultimate spot for you. Janeights Bath, where Jane Austen visited and stayed. All of this will be lovely, well paced, well organized. Our partners at John Shores Travel are handling everything. You get off the plane and get ready to relax and enjoy and meet some new people and see some inspiring places. The travel team handles the rest. Maybe this is a gift you'd like to give to your retired parents or to your recent graduate or to yourself and a friend. Time to treat yourself to something real, something actual. We have so much difficulty in the world that could be solved by some more in person experiences and camaraderie. That's what we're hoping to provide on this tour next May. So please do head over to John Shore's Travel, that's Shores with no e or historyofliterature.com where we have a link to the itinerary and logistics information. Don't miss out. Sign up today. And to whet your appetite a bit, let's bring out our guest today, Christopher Herbert, who dove into the world of Jane Austen to learn more about her brother Henry, who was, it turns out, a remarkable man in his own right who had a very special relationship with Jane and who inspired the phrase, oh what a Henry from his beloved sister. What did she mean by that? And what was it like to be siblings in the Austen family? And how did Henry's success and personality I don't think our guest would Say quite that he was a criminal or a con man, but he was it. Lived on the edge, let's put it that way. And how did all of that play a role in Jane's life and perhaps her books, too? Let's find out.

[C]

Okay. Joining me now is Dr. Christopher Herbert, who is a former Bishop of St. Albans, member of the House of Lords, and visiting professor at the University of Surrey. He's also an author whose past works include books about art and religion in the 15th century Netherlands and the history of Surrey. He's here today to discuss his new book, Jane Austen's Favorite Brother, Henry Christopher Herbert.

[A]

Welcome to the History of Literature, Jack.

[D]

Thank you very much. It's lovely to be on your show.

[C]

Do you remember the first time you read one of Jane Austen's books?

[D]

Oh, you're a good interviewer, Jack. To be honest, no. I've come at her quite late in life, really. My wife is an English teacher, teacher of English and has taught English literature all her life. And I, I, of course, I read Jane Austin when I was a sort of teenage and all of that. But it's only. To be honest, it's only been in the last few years that I've gradually come back to her, and I just enjoy her writings enormously. I'm no expert on Jane Austen. Yeah, not at all. My wife's the expert. I know a bit about her brother, but, yeah, I love her wit and her intelligence and her sense of humor and her insight about human beings. Really. That's what I love. Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

One of the things I wanted to ask you about is why we have this ongoing fascination with her life, including her friends and. And family. But I think you've already kind of previewed at least one factor, which is the way she seems to have such an insight into human beings. It makes us want to know more about the people that she was surrounded by and the relationships she had with them.

[D]

Absolutely. And I think she's disarming, really, because her writing is so very, very clever. But on the surface, it doesn't. It looks easy, as though it's just flowed from her pen and she hasn't given it a thought. But actually, when you. When you analyze it, my goodness me, you know, to it, you'd give anything, wouldn't you, to invent a phrase, some of her phrases, you know, it is a truth universally acknowledged, that one. I mean, yeah, right. I look at that and I smile and I think, golly, how did she come up with that anyway?

[C]

Yeah, that really is true. I mean, she Provided such a template that you would think that all of the people who have come after would have kind of made her irrelevant, you know, to update her and to keep improving and so on. And yet she's still kind of the source that people go to when they're looking for this type of a romantic story.

[D]

Yeah, absolutely. And as I hinted at earlier, I think. I think it's about her very shrewd insight about human life and about human relationships. And it's always. Well, it's laced with two things. It's laced with a kind of wry affection, and it's laced with some. Yeah, pretty tough insights about the society of her day. Though, of course, she avoided talking about the French wars that were going on or had gone on, so. And as she said in. I think it was her nephew who talked about. She advised him, I think, about writing and said, you know, two or three people in a small place, that's all you need. That's not a good enough resume of what she said, but it'll do for the moment. But I think it's the. The. It's the fact that her novels, full of human understanding and they're small in the sense that they don't sprawl all over the place. They're not like huge Russian novels. So we can identify with the characters. Yeah. And get to know them and actually become fond of them or irritated by them or whatever. And it's that very smallness which I think is attractive. And at the same time, of course, as we've all seen, those novels really lend themselves to cinema and to television. Because they're small. Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

I think there's something also in that intimacy we feel with her as the author and the authorial voice. And her books often have a kind of almost like a mystery element in terms of the man who seems like the villain at first turns out to be the good guy. And you're sort of trying to match people up with the. Make the right fit and all of that. And it almost seems like it encourages her readers to say, well, let's look at Jane's life and find the people who were nice to her and who were the good guys and who were the bad guys. And, you know, let's protect Jane.

[D]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the. Her ability, which is just mind blowing, really, but her ability to take a character like Emma and. And both show how Emma is completely off track so often. Right. To watch a character psychologically developing is just. Joy, isn't it? Yeah, joy. Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Okay. So that's a Nice transition to Henry, who was. Was her favorite, as you say, in your book. So if I have the birth order correct, I think there were eight Austin siblings, six boys and two girls. Henry was the fourth and Jane was the seventh. And they were. The two of them were separated by about four and a half years.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

So how much do we know about their childhood together? Or if you want to start with Henry's early life, what do we know about it and how do we know it?

[D]

What a good question, Jack. I mean, the fact is, we have to surmise quite a bit, but we know that she only went to school, went to two schools, very, very briefly. Her oldest brother was called James, and he went off to Oxford when he was about, I don't know, 14 or 15, something like that. So there was James and then there was George, about whom we know very, very little. He was obviously probably mentally handicapped, may have been epileptic, may have been physically handicapped is not at all clear. Then there was Edward. And Edward was the young man who was adopted by a wealthy branch of the family and became a very generous benefactor to all the others. And then there was Henry. And so I'll stop with Henry for the moment. What do we know about him? As I say, it has to be mostly surmise. So what I did when trying to write about his early life was to picture the rectory in which he and his siblings lived. What we do know is that his father was his teacher, just as he was his father. Jane's father was her teacher. The rectory itself, just to give your listeners a kind of image of. It, doesn't exist anymore. So you have to. There's one sort of faint pencil sketch which shows what it was like, but you need to picture the actual geographical setting. So we're in Hampshire, a county in southern England, and where the rectory is actually set is at the corner at the meeting of a T junction. Two roads. One road goes down to what is now and was then the main village. But in those days there were only 30 households in that village. And the average number of people in a geor a household was about 4.9. So maximum of 200 people in the village itself. Very, very, very isolated. The rectory was in the corner of a field. It was quite a handsome house, but not excessively large. And then going up by the side of the house was another very narrow lane. It still is very narrow. The kind of road that in England you see grass growing down the middle of it because Nobo travels it by car. And at the end of that road, about Oh, I don't know. Half a mile or so up from the house there is the isolated church where Henry's father, Jane's father, was the rector. Next to that was the manor house where the Digweed family lived. So what you have to start with is realizing that the family were separated physically from the village, but also socially and culturally. Yeah. And so I think her, Jane's mother and father, Henry's mother and father, they. They had a huge influence upon their children. I guess that. One can only guess that it was the mother who taught them very early on to read, you know, to do their reading books with them. And their father then picked up. But the kind of education he would have offered them, standard for the time in that class of household, was some Greek, some Latin, a tiny bit of maths, possibly a bit of geography, but it was basically classically based. And so we can only imagine. We don't know what the curriculum was that they followed. We know that they were. All of them were great readers. We know for a fact that they all love drama. They were always putting on plays in the house when they were older. So we can just sort of imagine the kind of books that she and Henry might have read. It might. She was very fond of Cooper and would have read some of his sort of moral tales. And there were. It was a. There were to the children's nursery rhymes that were being printed and so on, but actually, in reality, we don't know in detail exactly how they were educated, but from the kind of wit that Jane had and from the mischievous humor that Henry had and from Cassandra's steadfastness, I think we can assume a fairly. Well, a strong, very strong family unit. In fact, David Sissel, who is a great Jane Austen critic, a great writer, he referred to the Austens as having a kind of corporate personality. And I think it's a beautiful idea. And I think that would have come from the father and the mother. And then, of course, Henry just to go back to his life. So he was at home till he was about 13 or 14, 15, then he went up to Oxford. So I'll stop there, Jack, because otherwise I shall not give you a chance to ask questions.

[C]

Thank you. I appreciate that. Because one of the things I wanted to mention is even though they had this isolation, it seems like it would be a mistake to think of a crowded house of eight kids all growing up under one roof. Because one of the things I was struck by as I was going through your book is how often they left home. They were sent away for School, they left and came back. And so a lot of this relationships were maybe developed in sort of bits and pieces, so to speak, where there's three or four people home at one time or the kids are. Are going together or through letters.

[D]

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, what you have to remember, especially about Jane, is that she and Cassandra only went away to school for a few months at a time. One school was in Oxford, then that moved to Southampton, another school in Reading. Now reading again, for your American listeners, Reading is about, oh, I don't know, 15, 20 miles away from Steventon, which is the. The village where they were growing up. So they didn't go very far, but they did have. Letters were important and family relationships were very important. So George Austin, Jane and Henry's father, stayed very close, closely in touch with his sister, Philadelphia and her family. And she'd gone over to India on what is known as a fishing expedition, a fishing trip. In other words, she was fishing for a wealthy husband and found one, and then the family. I think the other thing we need to remember is that in that rectory, it was not only the Austen children, but there were at the same time there were a few, a handful, perhaps four, five, six, sometimes of young boys who were being educated by George. So if you picture an elegant Georgian house with sort of Chippendale furniture and all of that, I suspect it's wrong. I think what we need to picture more likely is a kind of well provided but relatively simple farmhouse with a kind of boarding school associated with it. You know, the boarding school boys would have lived in the house, would have shared the meals with the family and all of that. It was a great jumble of people and that would have been stimulating. Yeah. Not least for the girls. Yeah, right.

[C]

And to analyze all those different personalities. So what kind of expectations were there for Henry? I mean, was he expected to become a. A man of business or to become educated? Or do we know sort of what the father had in mind for Henry?

[D]

I mean, in scientific fact, we don't know what he had in mind for Henry. Henry's older brother, James, was ahead of him and went up to Oxford ahead of him. And the usual pattern in families of that class was for at least one of the children to go into the church. And so James, the older brother, did that, which meant that. And because Edward had been adopted by this incredibly wealthy family, there was no concern about what he would do. So that left Henry slightly adrift and he went up to Oxford and like his brother, he would have read classics, so Greek, Latin, a Bit of maths, some, possibly some philosophy, nothing very, very demanding by today's standards. And then, you know, he had a problem then because his older brother had become a vicar. And in those days in England, the pattern was that you needed to know somebody who owned the living in order to become a vicar. Well, already James was a vicar. So Henry had to begin to think, what am I going to do? And because of the wars with France that were going on at that time, I think, and because of his friendships developed in Oxford, he then aged, I don't know, 20 some odd. He then joined the Oxfordshire militia. And the Oxfordshire militia was not regular army. It was a what in England would be called the home guarded home defense force. So they weren't expected as a home defense force to travel abroad to fight against the French. They were expected, however, if the French had invaded England and later if Napoleon had invaded England, then they would have been the first line of defense. So he joined the militia. And everything in those days in England was very class based. So the colonel of the militia regiment was one of the great Oxfordshire families. And so when Henry went in as a graduate, he got his ba. He was then within a year of joining the militia, he'd been appointed as the assistant paymaster for the regiment. Incredible. Which was no small task and that he obviously enjoyed that. And that sort of led to his later career. Yeah.

[C]

And what was his later career, Jack?

[D]

How long have you got?

[C]

So he bounced around a bit.

[D]

He did. Long story short. Well, there he was the paymaster, and at the same. So what he was responsible for in the regiment was paying for the food for the regiment, paying for the clothes for some of the regiment, not the officer's clothes. He, as an officer would have had to buy his own uniform. He would have been responsible for paying for the munitions, for the muskets, for the ammunition, paying for transport. All very complicated. It was kind of big logistics task. So he was doing all that. And at the same time, because he was, I think he enjoyed it, he was obviously a very extrovert character, very charming man. And he began, I think other officers would come up to him and say, you know, could you lend me a couple of dollars? And he then got into a kind of private arrangements with some of his fellow officers. Anyway, so he'd spent time with the militia and then he decided to branch out and leave the militia. This was in the early 1800s. And what he did then was to become the regimental agent. He set up an office in a very, very fashionable part of London right next to St. James's Palace. And he became, as I say, a regimental agent. And what did they do? First of all, they acted still as sort of handling money for the regiment, but they also bought and sold commissions. In other words, if you wanted to be a major in the Oxfordshire militia, you didn't have to have any background in the military. You just go along to Henry and say, I've got, you know, 500 quid here, £500. I like to be a major. How much will it cost? And they do a deal. So it was legitimate, but right on the edge. It was legitimacy, really, because in those days, theoretically, the king appointed officers didn't in reality, but theoretically he did. And there were. Henry wasn't the only regimental agent in London at the time. There were others, but he was in that field. He was a bit of an entrepreneur. And that gradually morphed and changed into becoming a banker. Yeah.

[C]

Okay, let's take a quick break and come back with more from Christopher Herbert.

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[C]

Okay, we're back. So, Christopher, let's get a little more of Henry's personality onto the table and let's do it by coming at him from Jane's point of view. With six brothers to choose from, what was it about Henry that made him Jane's favorite?

[D]

Well, he was a risk, a bit of a risk taker, and I think she probably enjoyed that. But he also had a great sense of humor. There was something mischievous about him and not overconfident, but close to being overconfident. Yeah, but he was known for his bit, for always being positive, you know, always coming up smiling. Really? Yeah. And I think, I think Jane, I think she found James, the older brother, a bit heavy, a bit. A bit pompous. I mean, she was fond of all his siblings, no question, and deeply fond of Cassandra. But because of James was. Yes, he was. He was towards the end of the spectrum, where you might say he was almost naughty, not quite. He stayed the right side of it, but he was willing to take risks.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And more than that, in Jane's case, he. It was. I mean, why he's so important in the history of Jane Austen is that her father had tried to get her first novel published and had failed. And it was Henry who, with his connections and his. Yeah, chutzpah, I think, is a good word to use here, had arranged to meet a military publisher, military history publisher, called Thomas Edgerton and persuaded him to publish Sense and Sensibility. So without Henry, Jane's novels, both the ones she wrote when she was alive and the ones that were published posthumously, which Henry had also organized without Henry's help, well, the novels might never have come down to us, which would be a terrible loss. So she liked him. He was a smiling kind of person. Yeah. And good to be with. He was amusing and she. She loved the fact that he was amusing and light hearted, but actually deeply affectionate towards her and indeed all his siblings.

[C]

Yes. And she describes him in one letter as affection and amusing. And I wanted to emphasize that word, affectionate, because, you know, a lot of people who are charismatic and all of the things that we've already, that you've already described him as being a risk taker and so on, they can sometimes be a little bit narcissistic. But it sounds like he, based on what we know that he did for Jane's works, and her describing of him as affectionate suggests that he's somebody who wanted everyone around him to succeed or was loyal to his family members and willing to demonstrate that. And it really gives a kind of a nice picture of someone who just sounds very engaging and likable.

[D]

Yeah, he was, I'm sure. I mean, I would have loved to have met him. I really would. Because he was all, you know, until relatively recently. He's always been in the background a bit, you know, the usual sort of trope is that, yes, he was responsible for Jane's novels. Thank you very much. That was good. But actually, she was very fond of him. And a kind of instance of that is that when she died, he was the only brother that she named in her will. I think I'm right in saying this to whom she left money. And I think that's. That was significant. He'd been so kind to her when she was very, very ill towards the end of her life. He was always there, and to be fair, she was always there with him. So, for instance, when his wife Eliza had become very, very ill, it was Jane who went up to London to stay with Henry to look after him and to help nurse Eliza. She was always there when he needed her, and she sort of went through thick and thin with him and he did with her. It was a very affectionate and trusting and equitable relationship.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Now, she once wrote to Cassandra, oh, what a Henry. What was she talking about in that letter? And what does she mean by that? Do we know?

[D]

Yes. I don't know if you have ever read her letters, Jack, but that's an absolute treat for you. They're just terrific. Well, he was right at the top of successful London at that point. His bank had gone. Well, he had two or three country banks. So he was a man absolutely, you know, going great guns financially, socially. And he'd been invited to a big. One of the biggest London social events organized by a gentleman's exclusive gentleman's club called Whites. It had sort of members of the royal family there. And so Henry was at this party, knocking about with the creme de la creme of London society. It's a pretty loose kind of bunch of people, but anyways, knocking around with them. And it was. It was her. She referred to him being at this party that Whites had sort of sponsored and said, oh, what a Henry. It was. It's a kind of. You can almost hear her smiling in a kind of exasperated affection when she said it. You Know as, it's as though she's saying only Henry could get himself up there with the Prince Regent and all that lot. Look, this is, this is my little, my slightly bigger brother. We grew up in an isolated rectory, all of that.

[C]

Yeah, right. And he, although he also had some, some financial misfortune. So I guess there were peaks and valleys here. What exactly happened there? And was it his fault or was it just circumstances beyond his control?

[D]

Oh gosh, Jack, that's a brilliant question. Where do I start? Well, first of all, there were lots of people setting up as bankers at that time, late 19th, late 18th, early 19th century. So he was one of numbers of people. There'd already been large ish banks, people like Coutts and Hawes and all of those who were Citibanks, and then there was the bank of England. But in those days the bank of England was not, as we might think these days, a bank of last resort. So if you were a banker like Henry, you relied essentially on relationship building with your clients and you knew if things went wrong you couldn't turn to anyone other than your own family or very close friends to bail you out. So what had he done? Well, he'd been lending money out and because of his, he was slightly, I think slightly besotted with the aristocracy. So he was lending money to people. I think he took a few risks doing that. He, he felt you could trust an English aristocrat. Well, you couldn't, of course, and they didn't always repay him. And at the same time, he'd become the first, the premier tax collector for Oxfordshire, for the whole of Oxfordshire, the large county in the center of England. And as the tax collector he was still being a banker, but as the tax collector he was allowed to keep a proportion of the monies that he took and allowed to keep it for three or four months. Then he had to hand over the money he collected to the government, to the King. Now he'd made some, I think, probably slightly ill judged loans and he was beginning to dip into the money which he had held by legitimate right from the government. But they turned up earlier than he was expecting. I think they must have heard that maybe he was, his bank was in trouble. They turned up asking, demanding that he pay them the money that he owed from having collected all these taxes. Say all of this was legitimate, but he just couldn't pay them. So in the end, I mean, it went on for not more than two or three, four weeks. And in the end he simply hadn't got enough to pay Them he borrowed from his brother Edward, he borrowed from an uncle, but actually still hadn't got enough. So his bank was teetering on the edge. Meanwhile, or before this happened, one of the country banks in a small market town in Hampshire called Alton, he'd had some defaults there, so he'd already. And he'd been chasing those defaults and hadn't managed to recoup the money that he'd lent out. So he was beginning quite rapidly. There wasn't a run on his bank, but if there had been, he couldn't have paid, simple as that. So I think it was probably his downfall. And he was not the only bank that went bust at this time. Several or perhaps many did. So there was an economic downturn as well. I think he'd ill judge the money to whom he'd lent those people to whom he'd lent money. I think he was probably too trusting of some people. I think that it may be he'd expanded too much and could no longer manage the portfolio because his portfolio also included being an importer of wines from France and from South Africa. So he was also dealing a bit in wine selling and I suspect it all got just slightly beyond his managerial capacity. And then it all went bust and that was it. So he was declared bankrupt. I mean, he'd been right at the top of the social tree, no question of that. He had a very. He was held in, had a good reputation and suddenly there he was, he had absolutely nothing. His wife had died, his stepson had died. He was on his own apart from the Austin siblings and Jane in particular. And the bailiffs moved in and they took absolutely everything away from him. So having been right at the top of the tree, he crashed and was left with nothing.

[C]

Did that break his spirit or did he continue his geniality and his optimism?

[D]

Oh, gosh. He went to stay with his brother Edward, and I think Edward needs medals because he'd helped Henry out and very significant sums of money. But he turned to Edward for help and he went down to stay with Edward in Kent, right on the tip of southeastern England. And Edward sort of was scrambling around, I think, for findings for Henry to do. And he said, well, you could take my boys off to France. Oh, yes, I could do that. So he went off to France with Edward's, couple of Edward's boys. At the same time, he hoped to recoup the lands that his wife now who died, had sort of inherited down in Gascony. And he didn't succeed at that. But Henry was always Known for kind of bouncing back, but I think it was only about what, seven, eight, nine months after he went bust that he was. He walked up to the home, the house, the palace of the Bishop Winchester, basically saying, I think I'd like to be ordained. So he decided the only thing he could do at that point was put his collar on back to front and become a clergyman in an English parish. Yeah, right. Extraordinary.

[C]

Okay, so he lived a lot longer than Jane. He lived until 1850. Would you say that he lived his entire life as Henry Austin? Or was there a point where he became better known as, as the brother of the famous Jane Austen?

[D]

No, I don't think he was ever. I'm, I'm guessing at this, Jack. I think he was never known as the brother of the famous Jane. Yeah, she didn't want her name associated with the novels initially, but actually he was on a journey up to Scotland. Coming back, he, somebody was praising, I don't know whether it was Sense and Sensibility or Emma, which done. Which it was. And he suddenly let slip that he was the brother of Jane. And of course that was a. He couldn't resist that. But I think he was known. He became known. I mean he, he kept his head right below the parapet once he'd ceased being a banker and he just got on with the job of being a clergyman and, and that's how I became interested in him. Didn't know anything about him before I started my research because he was a, what was called a perpetual curate in the par. In the town where I now live, Farnham in Surrey. And perpetual curate meant that the, the rector of the parish didn't live in the parish, he lived about 30 miles away and never darkened the door of the parish. So to all intents and purposes, Henry became the vicar of the parish. And well, I mean he preached regularly. And in those days sermons were at least 7,000 words long, so they lasted for at least 70 minutes. He also became the master of local grammar school. Now that would only have been a handful of boys, but anyway he was the master as well. And the numbers of people with whom he came in contact were large. I mean he, I looked at, I researched, say, just as a matter of interest, some of the years when he was a perpetual curate. So one year 1824, he conducted over 130 baptisms and something like, I don't know, 40 some odd weddings and about 90 some odd funerals. That's on top of being master of the grammar school, on top of writing very long and well constructed Sermons. So he was. He was no slouch. He wasn't. He wasn't being a kind of elegant, gentlemanly vicar who would play whist with the ladies in the big house. I mean, he was getting on with the job.

[C]

And while he was doing all of that, I just love the image of him proud of Jane's books and proud of his role in helping to encourage them and bragging about them to his friends. And it does seem like for those of us who aren't lucky enough to be a Jane Austen, but maybe we will have the. The chance to be close to such a person in our lives. And it's a reminder that instead of being jealous of success and resentful and so on, another path is to just be gracious and helpful and take some pride in other people's accomplishments, and we can come down in history as more of a hero than a villain.

[D]

Yeah, exactly. So it's a beautifully put, Jack. Beautifully put. And I think, you know, you summed Henry up there for me. He was a gracious man. He was very kindly. He really was enormously proud of his sister. But then he moved into a very humble. Yeah, humble, ish. Occupation as a clergyman. Just got on with the job. And I think I. I think I can only imagine that he must have found very significant fulfillment in that, because it wasn't what he'd said whenever. When he was a young man in Oxford, the whole world lay in front of him and he ended up as a. As a perpetual curate. But, yeah, I loved researching his life. I loved getting to know him. And I feel. Yeah, I feel very fond of him, actually. And I feel I've got to know Jane a little bit through him. But obviously you get to know more about her through her letters. But my kind of strap line really is no Henry, no Jane. I think that's true.

[C]

It makes me wish that Jane had lived long enough to see her brother take that second stage in his life and maybe write a novel about him, which I think would have been different from the works that we have of hers. But in the meantime, we have a substitute, which is your book. It's called Jane Austen's Favorite Brother, Henry Christopher Herbert. Thank you so much for joining me on the history of literature.

[D]

It's been a huge pleasure. Jack, thank you so much for inviting me and talking with such ease about such a lovely man. Jack, thank you.

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[E]

This podcast is supported by FX's English teacher. Last year's critically acclaimed series returns to follow Evan, Gwen and Markie as they vie for their students divided attention. See why Cosmopolitan called its premiere season a masterclass of comedy, while glamour raved it's the year's funniest and most heartwarming new comedy series. FX's English Teacher. All new Thursdays on FX. All episodes now streaming on Hulu.

[A]

And finally today, Nicholas Jenkins was here to discuss the England of W.H. auden. After our conversation, I asked Nicholas a special question.

[C]

Okay. We're joined now by Nicholas Jenkins, an expert in the life and works of W.H.

[A]

Auden.

[C]

Nicholas, this question comes from a listener who asks, what do you want your.

[A]

Last book to be?

[C]

This will be the last book you will ever read. You can either choose one that exists or describe one that has not yet been written.

[G]

Wow, Jack, what a great question. And that's given me a sleepless night thinking about it. I love the all the ideas that are packed into that short question. I think for me, I'm going to try and act in the spirit that every book I read is the last book that I might read. I'm going to try and give every book that I'm reading the absolute maximum of my attention and love. I know there's always something inside a book to be gleaned. Even if we think we're not liking it, we might be able to get something from it that will be meaningful later on. So I would like to think of every book that I'm reading as possibly my last book. But if I was going to come back to something at the end of my life, that was just going to be a good moment of sign off. I would say that I would like to go back to a collection of poetry written by the poet Louise Glick. It's her last collection, Winter Recipes from the Collective. And I had the good fortune of working with Louise a little bit at the end of her life. She meant a huge amount to me as an artist and a writer. And then that was just supplemented by being able to talk to her a little bit. And I found after her shockingly sudden death that I went back to her Last book, Winter Recipes from the Collective, which I think I would also choose as maybe my last book to read if I have any say in the matter. And the last poem in Louise's last book of poetry is a poem called Song, and it's about a dream, like a lot of her poems. And she's dreaming about this man that she calls Leo Cruz, who's a ceramicist. I'm just going to read you the final words of the poem, which, if this is my last book, as well as being Louise's last book of poetry, will sign off in a way that I think makes sense to me. So she says that Leo is teaching me to live in imagination. A cold wind blows as I cross the desert. I can see his house in the distance. Smoke is coming from the chimney. That's the kiln, I think, only Leo makes porcelain in the desert. Ah, he says, you are dreaming again. And I say, then I'm glad I dream. The fire is still alive. The fire is still alive. That would be a great way to bring the last book to an end and a great way that Louise did bring her arc of poetry to an end as well. So I would hope that even at the last moment for me, I can say I'm glad I dream and that the fire is still alive.

[C]

The concept of living in the imagination, I mean, I would aspire to do that now, but there's part of me that would say, well, sure, except for you have to pay the mortgage and you've got kids who are headed to college and they'll need tuition payments and so on. But when you're at that moment where you're down to your last book and your last few moments, you can kind.

[A]

Of let all of that go.

[C]

You've done what you could for everyone else, and now you're getting your mind ready for the next phase, whatever that is, the next passage. And being in the imagination is kind of a beautiful way that you could maybe clear your head of a lot of the things that you're going to be leaving behind.

[G]

I think that's so true. You know, sometimes we get fall into this lazy way of thinking about imagination as being opposed to truth or the real. But I think poets like Louise Glick or Auden or innumerable other writers, novelists, essayists, be that what it is, all teach us that in the imagination we can find the truth. So right at that moment that you're describing Jack, at the end, maybe we'll use imagination to find the truth.

[C]

And the truth that you find in literature, I often argue is sort of more true than reality.

[G]

Right. And it's also the way literature liberates the truth inside you. Things you didn't know until you read it and then you realized that was part of you.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Okay, well, thank you for that. Nicholas Jenkins, thank you so much for joining me on the History of Literature.

[G]

It's been a pleasure, Jack. Thank you very much.

[A]

Wasn't that beautiful? Liberate the truth inside of you. That's what literature can do for you. Okay, well, there we go. That's going to do it for this episode of the History of Literature. My thanks to Nicholas Jenkins for that beautiful response to our little question. Such a, such a wonderful talk we had with him. You can find his episode at number 657 in our archive. And my thanks to Christopher Herbert, another great talk whose book, Jane Austen's Favorite Brother Henry is available at bookstores near you. And to listener Kai for his lovely email. Good luck to you, Kai. We'll be back soon with more literary goodness and I hope you will be too. And in the meantime, check out the History of Literature podcast tour scheduled for May of 2026. We would love to have you join us. That's at John Shorestravel S H O R s [e-mail] I'm Jack Wilson. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time. It's hard to remember now, but the Internet used to be fun.

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