The History of Literature – Episode 743

Fairy Tales (with Jack Zipes) [RECLAIMED] | Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky (#11 GBOAT) | Chaucer News

Host: Jacke Wilson
Guest: Jack Zipes, Professor Emeritus and Fairy Tale Scholar
Date: October 23, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode reclaims a previously lost interview with renowned fairy tale scholar Jack Zipes, delving into the origins, power, and political dimensions of fairy tales. Also featured are reflections on Dostoevsky’s Crime and Punishment—ranked #11 on the podcast’s greatest books list—and recent “Chaucer news,” including discoveries about the poet’s handwriting and historical context. The episode explores misconceptions about fairy tales, their societal influence, and their radical history. Zipes discusses his latest book, Buried Treasures: The Power of Political Fairy Tales, illuminating how such stories have shaped, resisted, and reflected power structures over centuries.

Main Themes and Segments

1. Introduction & Dispelling Fairy Tale Myths

[02:17–04:10]

• Fairy tales are not just for children: They are embedded in our cultural consciousness and shape adult worldviews and societies.
• Challenging the notion of fairy tales as tools for the establishment: While many assume fairy tales reinforce societal norms and submission, Zipes sees them as subversive, giving voice to the oppressed.

“Fairy tales make us who we are as individuals and as a culture. If that's not a subject for grown-ups to consider, I don't know what is.” — Jacke Wilson [02:32]

2. Chaucer News

[06:18–14:17]

• Recent discovery: A letter in Chaucer’s own hand to King Richard II, requesting time off, with an idiosyncratic spelling of his name.
• Scribe identity: Confirmation of Adam Pinkhurst as Chaucer’s “scrivener,” responsible for copying some of his works, linked through handwriting analysis. The line “of this tale Chaucer wrote no more” in The Cook’s Tale gains poignancy.

“If that had been Chaucer’s handwriting, we might see someone giving up, knowingly winking at us… But no, it was Adam the attacked scrivener, who writes that.” — Jacke Wilson [12:39]

3. Crime and Punishment in Context

[14:20–20:06]

• Ranking: #11 on the “Greatest Books of All Time.”
• Historical context: Crime and Punishment and War and Peace serialized together in the Russian Messenger; unique literary moment.
• Plot summary: Focus on Raskolnikov’s troubled psyche and the moral/psychological intensity of his actions.
• Critical reception: Polarized—praised for existential depth, criticized for moralizing.
• Influence: Freud, Sartre, Camus admired Dostoevsky’s probing psychology.

“Reading him is like being whirled around, blinded, and suffocated. He's frantic. But that's okay. Sometimes we need the crazies to get out there ahead of us…” — Paraphrased from Virginia Woolf by Jacke Wilson [19:14]

4. Interview: Jack Zipes on Fairy Tales and Political Power

a. The Einstein Fairy Tale Anecdote

[27:08–30:02]

• Zipes recounts a family legend: Einstein advises his grandmother that, for a boy to become educated, he should “read fairy tales… and then more fairy tales.”
• Zipes’s grandmother, a Jewish immigrant, used the story as a lesson.

"'Fairy tales. He should just read fairy tales.' ...’No, for what then? What should he read after that?’ ‘More fairy tales,’ Einstein stated bluntly.” — Jack Zipes [29:18]

b. Zipes’s Fairy Tale Fascination

[30:13–32:12]

• Zipes credits his mother and early library experiences for his love of fairy tales and stories, describing himself as a “fairy tale junkie.”

c. What Are Fairy Tales?

[32:12–35:20]

• Fairy tales as “narratives of imaginative justice,” with roots extending to the Greco-Roman period.
• The label “fairy tale” wasn’t codified until 1697 by Madame d’Aulnoy; tales are not necessarily about fairies or written for children.

“Fairy tales really have consumed other genres…a narrative of imagination in which the justice and compassion are stronger than most tales in the world.” — Jack Zipes [35:00]

d. Not Just for Children

[35:20–36:22]

• Fairy tales evolved from oral traditions among all ages; only later were they associated with children.

e. The Stakes of Fairy Tales: Social Critique

[36:22–40:53]

• Rather than promoting submission, these tales often challenge the upper classes, reflect harsh realities, and imagine justice and morality that real life lacks.
• Tales like Hansel and Gretel and Little Red Riding Hood directly address abandonment, poverty, and sexual danger.

“In the fairy tales, once you enter the forest, nobody can regulate the lives of the people…The fairy tale does not dictate…to anyone.” — Jack Zipes [40:53]

f. Critique of Bruno Bettelheim

[40:55–44:06]

• Zipes rebukes Bettelheim's Freudian readings for lacking practical grounding with children, calling him a “very dark character.”
• Zipes’s own experience as a storyteller in public schools contradicted Bettelheim’s theories.

5. Buried Treasures: Reclaiming Political Fairy Tales

[45:29–53:43]

• Motivation: Zipes established his own publishing press (Little Mole and Honey Bear) to resurrect forgotten political fairy tales from the early 20th century.
• Focus: Works by writers who resisted fascism, using narrative instead of weapons to confront oppression.
• Notable figures:
  • Édouard Laboulaye — French political writer, democracy advocate, and “founder” of the Statue of Liberty.
  • Yusuf Emery Kellen — Hungarian Jew, pacifist, writer, illustrator.
  • Maurice Daun — French resistance fighter who wrote powerful pacifist tales for children.

“They wrote their stories against fascism…there’s a parallel to what’s happening today, because we’re living in a time when fascism is rising, rearing its ugly head…” — Jack Zipes [51:30]

6. How Political Are Fairy Tales?

[53:43–54:25]

• These writers didn’t simply retell Grimm; instead, they invented new narratives using traditional motifs, addressing the injustices of their time in allegorical form—sometimes as a way to bypass censorship.

Example:

“The rabbit takes the boy throughout the world to show who is causing the misery…He returns with an understanding of what his mission should be.” — Jack Zipes [55:16]

7. Who Should Be Rediscovered? Zipes’s Personal Mission

[57:44–60:33]

• Gianni Rodari—Italian resistance member, Communist Party affiliate, and influential children’s author.
  • Zipes helped spread Rodari’s “Grammar of Fantasy” program in American schools, empowering children’s creativity and autonomy.
  • Zipes continues working to introduce Rodari’s works to American readers.

8. Why Einstein Valued Fairy Tales

[60:33–63:04]

• Zipes interprets Einstein’s advice as a call for imaginative, autonomous, compassionate individuals in any field, including science.
• Emphasis on using fairy tales to cultivate independent thought, imagination, and moral sensibility.

“You don’t need people to tell you how to be compassionate about human beings in the world…You can find out what is right by yourself.” — Jack Zipes [62:31]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the role of fairy tales:
  “They really transported me in my imagination to another society, another land, another country… gave me a way to step back. It really estranged me in a way.” — Jack Zipes [32:17]

• On violence and realism in fairy tales:
  “They were filled with actually brutalities and demonstrating how evil and oppressive the upper classes could be. … Even if you look at Little Red Riding Hood, it’s a tale about rape.” — Jack Zipes [37:07]

• On the radical spirit behind classic tales:
  “The fairy tales do not allow kings or queens or the upper classes to get the better of the lower classes.” — Jack Zipes [37:07]

• On contemporary resonance:
  “There’s a parallel to what’s happening today, because we’re living in a time when fascism is rising, rearing its ugly head again here in America…” — Jack Zipes [51:30]

• On cultivating autonomy:
  “How can you be your own person? Or how is it possible for you to become so autonomous that you can really critique the world and understand the world and make it a better place?” — Jack Zipes [60:54]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Dispelling Myths: [02:17–04:10]
• Chaucer News: [06:18–14:17]
• Crime and Punishment analysis: [14:20–20:06]
• Opening of Zipes interview (Einstein tale): [27:08–30:02]
• Fairy tales for adults & their definition: [32:12–35:20]
• Fairy tales and social justice: [36:22–40:53]
• Bettelheim critique: [40:55–44:06]
• Political fairy tales and Buried Treasures: [45:29–53:43]
• Rediscovery mission — Rodari: [57:44–60:33]
• Einstein’s fairy tale advice unraveled: [60:33–63:04]

Conclusion

This wide-ranging episode is a tribute to the enduring power—and radical potential—of fairy tales as cultural artifacts that mold, challenge, and critique the societies that produce them. Zipes and Wilson show how such narratives are foundational, not just for children, but for anyone seeking to understand justice, autonomy, and resistance. The episode offers a thoughtful take on how “more fairy tales”—Einstein’s prescription—equip us to imagine and strive for a better, more humane world.