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The History of Literature
743 Fairy Tales (with Jack Zipes) [RECLAIMED] | Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky (#11 GBOAT) | Chaucer News
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- [00:02]
Jack Wilson
The History of Literature Podcast is a member of the podglomerate Network and Lit Hub Radio. Hello everyone, it's Jack Wilson telling you that the History of Literature Podcast tour through Literary England is still accepting deposits and we'd love to have you join us. We will be visiting some of the greatest literary sites in history, including walks, tours, pub visits and leisure time activities, and with visits from scholars and other special guests as we experience the amazing cities of London, Oxford and Bath in a small group accompanied by yours truly. If you love literature and if you love life, you are not going to want to miss this. It's next year in May of 2026, but we need you to put down a deposit now so we can finalize the itinerary. 2026 is around the corner people. Give yourself something to look forward to next spring. You can find out more at John Shors Travel John S H O R S or you can find the links to the itinerary and sign up page@historyofliterature.com hope to see you soon.
- [01:15]
Alan Sisto
I'm Alan Sisto, the Man of the west here at the Prancing Pony Podcast.
- [01:18]
Sean Marchese
And I'm Sean Marchese, the real life Lord of the Mark.
- [01:21]
Alan Sisto
Every week here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, along with Sean or other co hosts, I explore the works of J.R.R. tolkien, author of the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, bringing along lots of pop culture refere plenty of nerd humor and the occasional bad punk.
- [01:33]
Sean Marchese
It's just a couple of friends hanging out at the pub talking about our favorite books. We cover just a few pages every episode, reading important sections of the books and having a chat about what we've read.
- [01:42]
Alan Sisto
Now we do a ton of research for each episode so that we can bring as much background information to our conversation as possible. We do all the heavy reading so you don't have to.
- [01:49]
Sean Marchese
It's a great way for first time readers to learn the basics of Tolkien's world, while for Middle Earth veterans it's a deep dive into their favorite stories.
- [01:56]
Alan Sisto
Now the Tolkien fandom is like no other, so we spend time in the community giving talks at Tolkien events, recording live episodes and hanging out with our listeners on Discord to engage with our audience every chance we get.
- [02:06]
Sean Marchese
So if you're ready to dive into the most beloved world in fantasy literature.
- [02:10]
Alan Sisto
And become a part of a vibrant, active community of listeners, then look for.
- [02:14]
Sean Marchese
The Prancing Pony Podcast wherever you listen.
- [02:17]
Jack Wilson
Hello, let's start by dispelling a couple of notions. One is that fairy tales are of interest only to children and the grown ups who have been tasked with reading to those children. Well, children might enjoy fairy tales, but anyone interested in narratives and their power, in the way they shape our view of ourselves and our society, has to reckon with the almost invisible omnipresence of fairy tales. Fairy tales make us who we are as individuals and as a culture. If that's not a subject for grownups to consider, I don't know what is. And the second notion to dispel is the one that you might have brought to it, as I did before I talked to our guest today, the notion that, well, yes, we can analyze fairy tales for their impact, but won't we find a long history of upholding the establishment, supporting the powerful? Won't we find in these stories meek young girls waiting for their prince to come and strong rulers laying down the law, and generally speaking, the kind of lessons that the people in power want the rest of us to learn to keep us scared, maybe, or content with our meager allotment, docile and dumb. Well, Jack Zipes, who is one of the world's great experts in fairy tales, has a different point of view. He's spent his life gathering, analyzing, translating, publishing, teaching, learning and writing about fairy tales, from an early recommendation from a surprising source to his current, no less passionate position. Jack Zipes on fairy tales. And we look at number 11 on the list of greatest books of all time, Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky. That's all coming up today on the History of Literature.
- [04:11]
Jack Zipes
Foreign.
- [04:22]
Jack Wilson
Welcome to the podcast. I'm Jack Wilson. If you, if any of you had deja vu while listening to that opening, you're not losing your mind. Does anyone think they're losing their mind when they experience deja vu? I don't think we do. Nobody ever mentions that, do they? They don't say, I had deja vu. I ran to the emergency room immediately, or I saw a psychiatrist for my case of deja vu. She put me on some medication. We don't think we're losing our mind. Isn't it curious, though, that we don't? Instead, we go straight to the supernatural, the time traveling or the prophecy side of it. We think of these things as more like a dream than a. A mental lapse or failing. Maybe it taps into our beliefs or our hopes that there might be alternate universes or reincarnation or separate selves. Doppelgangers or that are unconscious can perform magic tricks. In this case, though, for your deja vu, if you felt it, there's an explanation. You are a longtime listener and you've heard me read those words before. That's right. We are reclaiming another lost episode of the history of literature. What does that mean, reclaiming a lost episode? Well, it means this episode, or should I say the discussion with Jack Zipes originally ran a few years ago. It fell out of the archive for some copyright reason or other. I haven't investigated this one. But as I've explained before, some of these copyright challenges were a mix up based on our old theme song. For that theme song, you may remember that beloved theme song, we were using a copyright free version of Handel's Entrance of the Queen of Sheba. But the program that looks for violations of copyright confused that piece of music with lots of other versions of that song that are copyrighted. So guess what genius algorithm. It's kind of the nature of classical music. If it's any good, it's been recorded lots of times. So I would get challenges at the same time from four different orchestras saying, that's ours. Well, guess what? You didn't all record, like, they can't all be copyrighted. If there's two copyright challenges by different sources for the same piece of music, you would think the algorithm would say, hang on, maybe this is. Maybe this is a piece of classical music. Maybe none of these challenges are valid. Instead, I would have to deal with four different challenges I didn't want to have. So I would just, just take the episode down sometimes, say, I'll deal with this later. Well, one of those was the. The episode with the Jack Zipes interview. And I didn't want to have that one just sitting on the shelf because the discussion is a good one. Very interesting. One of the world's leading experts in fairy tales, and he had a lot to say. So we'll have that for you in this episode coming up soon. While we're at it, since we took that episode down, let's not lose the two pieces of Chaucer news that we included in that episode. So this is what we had for you back then. All right, let's do some literary news. Two articles for you today, one hot off the press and one a few years old, both of them having to do with Chaucer. We had a summer full of Chaucer here at the History of Literature. For years, we barely mentioned Chaucer at all. Mostly because I did all this research and was then stymied by the sexual assault allegations against him, which I had no idea what to make of. I couldn't figure out if he was a rotten guy or not, or what exactly the documentary evidence was. And in the end, I lost steam. So we had this delay, and then the floodgates opened. Chaucer time. Thanks to the wonderful Marion Turner, who is one of our favorite guests. And she came here twice, once to discuss her biography of the Wife of Bath, and most recently to discuss her biography of the great poet himself. She made a compelling case that Chaucer is worth our time. And so I was very interested to see a headline in the newspaper informing me that a new document has been identified as being written in his hand. The father of English literature, his handwriting confirmed. And what was that document? What would you hope for? What would you expect? A draft of one of the Canterbury Tales, perhaps, or one of his other poems? Maybe a. A letter to a fan of his verse? Well, he was actually asking his boss for some time off. His boss, as it happened, was King Richard ii. And in the letter, Chaucer spells his name. Jeffrey G, E, F, F, R, A, Y. Which. Come on, spell your first name the way everyone else does. That's what I always say. And he has a few careless mistakes in the letter. Maybe you think that's not worthy of a great poet, but Fitzgerald couldn't spell either. And maybe in some ways, only a great writer, or at least a confident one, would submit something like that to a king. Was he careless or simply carefree? Either way, it's interesting to think about, and even better, by having an example of Chaucer's handwriting, we will hopefully be able to find other documents that he also wrote, and we can fill in that portrait like so many other historical figures where we have. He likely did this, and he may have done that, and he would have done that. Well, we'd like to know, hey, he did do this. We know it. Confirmed. Although Marion Turner found a very creative way around that issue in her biography of Chaucer. She wrote about the places where we know that he lived. How did those settings, which we know about and can know a lot of them, are still in existence? How did those settings interact with his poetry, which we also have and is also knowable, although we always want to know it a little better, which is why we're here. That article on Chaucer's letter took me back to an earlier article about Chaucer, which is even more interesting from a substantive standpoint. Still not an early draft of a tale or anything like that, but giving us a glimpse of Chaucer's personality. Adam Pinkhurst was the son of a small Landowner in Surrey. Some scholars nailed down his handwriting, and it turned out that his signature also matched some handwriting on Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, along with some earlier works and his translation of Boethius, Constellations of Philosophy. And now we know Adam Pinkhurst. We knew for a while that Chaucer had an Adam in his life, but he was known only as Adam the Scrivener, last name uncertain. And we knew him because he was a bad scrivener. Chaucer called him out in a poem called Chaucer's Words unto Adam, His Own Scriven. He basically said, adam, you worthless scrivener, I've had to correct so many errors, so much rubbing and scraping, thanks to your negligence and incompetence, I'm going to curse you. But Chaucer had other options, and he went back to Adam several times, suggesting that maybe Adam wasn't so bad at his job, maybe Chaucer was just a little too finicky. And Adam, for his part, gave us an understated but powerful line of his own. When the Cook's Tale ends unfinished by Chaucer, who died. Adam Pinkhurst wrote in his own hand of this tale. Chaucer wrote no more. If that had been Chaucer's handwriting, we might see someone giving up, knowingly winking at us, referring to himself in the third person, rapping with a bit of meta, like putting a curlicue at the bottom of a page. But no, it was Adam the attacked scrivener, who writes that. Scholars say it reads like an elegy of this tale. Chaucer wrote no more. Was he saying that in. In workmanlike fashion, or was he himself broken up, bereft, full of grief? I find it poignant either way. Okay, that's it for the deja vu portion of our show. We found it poignant either way. Also poignant. The life of poor Fyodor Dostoevsky. Not many people face a firing squad, literally, and lived to tell the tale, but with much trauma afterwards. And not many people wrestle with the demons he did, the addictions, especially the gambling, the agonies, the epileptic seizures, and four years of hard labor in a Siberian prison camp. He also was read a lot of fairy tales as a young man, along with the Bible and Homer and all kinds of other stuff. But the fairy tales are on our mind today, thanks to our guest, Mr. Zipes. Also on our mind is.
- [14:17]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
Number 11 on our list of the greatest books.
- [14:20]
Jack Wilson
Of all time, Crime and Punishment, which comes in two spots ahead of number 13. War and Peace by Leo Tolstoy. And the two works were serialized in the same magazine at the same time. I don't think there's anything like that in the rest of literature. Maybe if you were. Maybe if you were listening to Homer sitting around the fireside the campfire and he read you, or he recited for you a section of the Iliad and then said, hey, while you're waiting for.
- [14:54]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
The rest of that story, why don't.
- [14:55]
Jack Wilson
You listen to this other thing I'm working on about a guy on his way home, and he extended your evening with some of the Odyssey. But you know what? I think we can rule that out based on our knowledge of which of those texts came first. And anyway, the Iliad is not even in the top 25 greatest books of all time, and the Odyssey was all the way down at 24. These books were top 13, number 13 and number 11. And Russians, those lucky Russians in the 19th century were. They got to read them both in the same magazine, the Russian Messenger. If you were a subscriber to the messenger, apparently the messenger was there to bring you the message. And the message was that 19th century Russians are really, really good at writing novels. Okay. Crime and punishment, published in 1866, tells the story of a former law student named Raskolnikov who lives in poverty and becomes obsessed with the idea of killing an old woman. An unscrupulous pawnbroker who lives in his neighborhood. He tries once, but he can't go through with it. And then he gets all hopped up in a bar room conversation. He believes he's doing it to save his sister, who's about to marry a wealthy suitor, which Raskolnikov connects in his mind with the story that he hears in that bar room from an acquaintance whose teenage daughter has resorted to prostitution to support the family. So Raskolnikov thinks something must be done to save these people. So he steals an axe and heads off to the old woman's apartment, where he kills her and her half sister. He's so startled by what he's done, his mind is reeling. He steals only a few things, leaves most of her wealth behind and takes off. Now he has to deal with the aftermath. He has to hide the items, the evidence. He has to destroy the evidence. He's called into the police station, but it's for another matter, and that nearly destroys him. When the police begin discussing the murder. He believes he's given himself away somehow through his agitation. Now, I'll pause there and let you read the Rest of the novel for yourself. What's incredible about the book is how directly you are inside the mind of Raskolnikov, his agonizing mind. It's so claustrophobic, desperate and feverish in there, you almost can't stand it. And you come to believe that Dostoevsky himself must have been desperate and panicky, even a little demented himself, in order to inhabit that mind so well, so deeply and for so long. There are detective elements to the story, but while it's satisfying to be on the Sherlock side of a detective story, knowing that our hero detective is going to set the world straight, it's agonizing to be on the wrong end of a detective story, feeling the inevitable crush of logic and reason and evidence in the form of an investigation that's coming for you, and knowing that you're powerless to stop it. I say you because we closely identify with Raskolnikov in this book. The evidence, it's coming for him, and we're powerless to stop it. Raskolnikov's story is the classic case of the punishment of the arrest and imprisonment is not the point. The punishment will be inside your mind. It's the kind of book that makes adolescent men want to test themselves against the law, morality and guilt themselves. It makes them think, could I commit a perfect crime? Could I outsmart the police and get away with it? And then, if I were to do so, could I live with myself? It's one thing to cheat on your taxes or put a slug in the parking meter. It's another thing to commit murder. Wouldn't you crack under the pressure, the guilt? Would you really want to live with yourself, with the version of you that went ahead and did such a thing? And what about God? Where does he fit in hell? Can you face the consequences of an action like that? The book was a sensation in Russia and throughout Europe. Critics grumbled. They still do. The Bloomsbury group was astounded by it. Freud loved it. Sartre and Camus credited it and Dostoevsky with kicking off existentialism. For every champion, though, there's a grumbling critic. Too much moralizing, Nabokov says. I don't trust these big moral systems. Nabokov once said something like, americans need to understand that Dostoevsky is more respected.
- [20:05]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
In America than he is in Russia.
- [20:07]
Jack Wilson
He was a bad writer. There are many readers in America and elsewhere who find the book slow, even tedious. But for many, many readers, it's the slowness that makes it so excruciating. It's the psychological pressure ratcheting up and ratcheting up more tighter, tighter, tighter. That makes reading Crime and Punishment such an unforgettable experience. Not many books can change your life the way this one does. He's the greatest writer ever born, virginia Woolf said after reading Crime and Punishment. His novels are seething whirlpools, the that suck us in with a giddy rapture. Reading him is like being world round, blinded and suffocated. He's frantic. But that's okay. Sometimes we need the crazies to get out there ahead of us to run across that mine laden field. The berserkers. Because they're so desperate that they're willing to do it. They reach the other side, risking danger all the way, and they turn around breathlessly to look for us to see if we're brave enough to join them in running across that field or not. Maybe they don't even look around, they just move on. Either way, we have a path to follow now at our own pace and by the light of our own candle. Or maybe, maybe the light of our candle under the covers. The flashlight. So Jack Zipes will be next. But first let me tell you about a few things in the works. We have a low ad version of the podcast for patreon members. That's patreon.com literature if you'd like to sign up. Our thanks to all of our Patreon members for supporting the show. And now they get to skip some of the commercial interruptions. We're glad to provide that for you in exchange for your small monthly contribution. Very appreciative of that. We also have a newsletter that comes out once a month or so. Emma puts that together. It's totally free. You can sign up for that@historyofliterature.com we do most of our posting on Instagram and Blue sky these days. And what else? Oh yes, we still have spots open for our literary tour in May of 2026. You can find out more at John Shore's Travel S H O R S or@historyofliterature.com Join us for a trip through Literary England together, staying at home hotels, eating our meals together and visiting some wonderful sites to lift our hearts and minds and spirits and make 2026 a year to remember Shakespeare, Dickens, Wolf, Austin, Tolkien, Dr. Johnson and more. But for now, Jack Zipes here to talk about fairy tales after this. Hey folks, the countdown is on. Holiday shopping season is officially here. Uncommon Goods takes the stress out of gifting with thousands of unique high quality finds. You won't see anywhere else. When you shop at Uncommon Goods, you're supporting artists and small independent businesses, but that means they can sell out. So shop now. I bought my dad a very cool throwback radio with Bluetooth so he can listen to his old time radio shows in style. The Uncommon Gifts website has something for everyone from moms and dads to kids and teens. Die hard football fans, history buffs, foodies, avid gardeners, mixologists, and of course book lovers. So don't wait. Cross those names off your list before the rush. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.com literature that's uncommongoods.com literature for 15% off. Uncommon Goods were all out of the ordinary. Hey everyone. My heartfelt thanks to AG1 for sponsoring this episode and for making a product that I use and enjoy. I've got a busy schedule and I work hard to fit everything in. One scoop of AG1 in the morning and I am good to go. Nutrients. My body needs energy to give me that physical and mental boost and that underrated but very important feature of a good life. Gut health. Yes indeed. Gotta have good gut health. AG1 has five probiotic strains and more than 75 vitamins and minerals. The flavors are delicious. I like berry the best, but tropical is right up there too, and AG1 is backed by gold standard clinical trials, rigorous and peer reviewed. Head to drinkag1.com literature to get a free welcome kit including a bottle of vitamin d and free AG1 travel packs when you first subscribe. That's drink ag1.com literature hey folks, it's my favorite season, autumn, and that means the weather is getting cooler. I love getting dressed in the morning, putting on layers, and I love wearing clothes that get the job done. Quince delivers every time with warm, durable pieces that have breathability and a little stretch for comfort. I'm back at the office five days a week, which means I need to mix things up for my coworkers. So I picked up a few quince items. A nice chore jacket in a warm tobacco color which looks fantastic with it. Organic cotton fisherman's sweater to wear underneath. Rugged but stylish, perfect for a casual Friday. Layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they look. Go to quince.com literature for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I N C E. Free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com literature okay, joining me now is Jack Zipes, professor emeritus of German and Comparative Literature at the University of Minnesota.
- [26:42]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
His previous works include the Irresistible Fairy.
- [26:45]
Jack Wilson
Tale and a number of books for which he served as the editor and or translator, including the Original Bambi, the.
- [26:53]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
Original Folk and Fairy Tales of the.
- [26:55]
Jack Wilson
Brothers Grimm and the Sorcerer's Apprentice. He's here today to discuss a new book, Buried the Power of Political Fairy Tales. Jack Sipes, welcome to the History of Literature.
- [27:06]
Jack Zipes
Thank you very much for inviting me.
- [27:09]
Jack Wilson
So I was wondering if we could start where your book does with a remarkable tale involving Albert Einstein. Would you mind relaying that story to us?
- [27:19]
Jack Zipes
Okay, I'll try to also imitate my grandmother. My grandmother's English. Okay, here it goes. Once upon a time, when the famous scientist Albert Einstein worked at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, a tiny old woman approached him as he was walking home. She was schlepping a skinny young boy of about six or seven who was dragging his feet. Mies Einstein. She called out in a strong Central European accent. Stop your tracks and help me. Einstein was taken aback. He didn't know what to do except stop. How can I help you? He responded with a smile as he took out a pipe. Einstein, stop. Stop. You shouldn't smoke. It will kill you. The old woman said. Again, Einstein was taken aback and he put away his pipe. Is that better? Much better, the old woman said as she drew her timid grandson toward Einstein. Jaki, stop fiddling and listen to this great man. Now she turned her attention back to Einstein. Mist. Einstein, I want you should tell me what my grandson must do to become educated like you. I thought he should be a great scientist like you. Einstein didn't hesitate with his reply. Fairy tales. He should just read fairy tales, right? The woman replied. No. For what then? What should he read after that? More fairy tales, Einstein stated bluntly. He took out his pipe and continued walking toward his home. The old woman was silent for a moment, but when she grabbed hold of Jaki's hand and began dragging him through the park, she suddenly stopped. You heard Jaki. She pointed her finger at the frightened boy. You heard what the great man said. Read fairy tales. Do what Drake man said. Well, God help you. And she whisked her grandson away. So that's how my grandmother. We called her Bubby. That's how she talked.
- [30:03]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
Yeah, well. And that story. It almost reads like a fairy tale. And including with a kind of some magic words and a potential curse there.
- [30:14]
Jack Zipes
At the end, right? Definitely.
- [30:19]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
So how did that encounter go on.
- [30:21]
Jack Wilson
To affect your life?
- [30:23]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
Did you start reading fairy tales from.
- [30:25]
Jack Wilson
The Beginning and then just never stop.
- [30:28]
Jack Zipes
Well, it was my mother who was a great influence on me. My grandmother was a remarkable woman who came from either Lithuania or maybe Ukraine, I'm not too sure. She came from one of these Eastern European countries and fled during the pogroms and then landed here in New York City and never, never really learned English all that well. And her best language is Yiddish. So I would say that encounter reinforced what I already was trying to was learning from my mother, who used to read Hans Christian Andersen and Brothers Grimm to us at night, me and my brother. And then I also got stuck on the public library. I became a member there and I had a card, and I used to love to go there and take books out and spread them on the floor. I couldn't take them home and spend two or three hours reading various books, Jack London and dog stories and all sorts of stories, including fairy tales.
- [31:44]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
And you call yourself now a fairy tale junkie?
- [31:50]
Jack Zipes
Yeah, I did. I fell in love with sort of all the antiquarian stores and book shows and sales and anything that led to me to go around and sniffing books that I enjoyed. Yes, I am a junkie. I still am.
- [32:12]
Jack Wilson
And why fairy tales?
- [32:14]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
What fascinates you about that particular genre?
- [32:18]
Jack Zipes
Well, you know, they really transported me in my imagination to another society, another land, another country where the laws or customs were totally different from the customs I experienced. And so for me, it gave me a way to step back. It really estranged me in a way, reading fairy tales and other tales, not just fairy tales, but fairy tales in particular, because they were so imaginative and also because of the justice, the type of, let us say, natural justice that occurs in these tales appealed to me to a great extent because life was not like that.
- [33:06]
Jack Wilson
Right.
- [33:07]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
So when we hear the word fairy tale, a lot of us probably picture Snow White or Cinderella, but it can include a lot more than just a handful of stories that we're most familiar with.
- [33:20]
Jack Wilson
How do you define it?
- [33:21]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
What's your working definition of what is.
- [33:23]
Jack Wilson
Or is not a fairy tale?
- [33:26]
Jack Zipes
Well, you know, it's very difficult to do that because fairy tales really have consumed other genres. And they are really tales that are tales of imaginative justice, I would say. And these tales go all the way back to the Greco Roman period. It's not just the Brothers Grimm, but these tales originated way before we even called these tales fairy tales. It wasn't actually until 1697 when Madame d', Aulois, brilliant writer, she wrote during the period of Charles Perrault, who was famous also for so called Inventing fairy tales. But these writers didn't call their tales fairy tales until Madame Dulnois in 1697 began calling her stories. Ponte Fente fe is simply fairy tale. And her tales were very. Not secular. For instance, there's nothing about Christianity or any other religion with regard to the tales that she wrote. The judges, let us say the spirits that regulated sort of the justice in these tales were actually fairies. And these fairies were very powerful. And it caught on. And then when the English and Germans began developing their fairy tales, they for some strange reason also followed suit and used Madame Dunois title for fairy tales. And so you can't really define what a fairy tale is, except to say it's a narrative of imagination. And you. Which the justice and compassion are stronger than most tales in the world.
- [35:21]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
And you didn't mention the word children. Is part of the definition that their tales designed to be told to children, or is that a misconception that we might have?
- [35:32]
Jack Zipes
Total misconception. Total. Because it stemmed from the oral tradition. Most people did not know how to read or write. And until the 20th century. And so what did they do in the evening? They told tales to one another. And these tales were repeated and stemmed from the experiences not only of the peasants, but also the upper classes had salons and they told tales also there. So the basis of the written literary fairy tales stems from these amazing tales by common people who could not write that well or didn't write them down or. But they repeated them and they became extremely important in almost every culture in the world.
- [36:22]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
So.
- [36:23]
Jack Wilson
Yeah.
- [36:23]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
And you describe in your book the common view that people have of fairy tales as being kind of quaint and old fashioned and maybe something you. That one looks at with children briefly with a touch of nostalgia. But as you've said, they're also viewed as very important and very significant and having a powerful impact on the way children grow up and imagine themselves and the way we imagine ourselves and the.
- [36:50]
Jack Wilson
Way society imagines itself.
- [36:52]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
So what exactly is at stake with a fairy tale? Is it because it has this sense of justice that it sort of teaches us what justice is or inspires us to look for higher ideals or what's.
- [37:06]
Jack Wilson
Going on with fairy tales?
- [37:08]
Jack Zipes
Yeah, fairy tales are fascinating because of the fact that they do not allow kings or queens or the upper classes to get the better of the lower classes. And so to a certain extent, or maybe even to a great extent, as I said, these tales were told with children around. Children would listen to these tales up through the. As I said, up through the 20th century, they had nothing to do in the evenings. They had no TV or anything like that. And so they were filled with actually brutalities and demonstrating how evil and oppressive the upper classes could be. And therefore they imagined they wanted a different type of life. And that's why these tales are so imaginative and political at the same time, because they don't, let us say, conceal or cover up the brutality in their lives. Take a tale like Ansel and Gretel, where the parents abandoned their children in the forest. That happened quite a bit, where babies were just dropped off at a church because particular family couldn't afford to have more children. And these incidents are transferred through storytelling through the common people so that they can try to resolve the problems that they have, the conditions that they have. Even if you look at A Little Red Riding Hood, it's a tale about rape. And they knew exactly, you know, when a little girl would go into the forest, it was very dangerous for her. And most villages tried to keep the women from leaving the villages or taking walks or into the woods because of the fact that it was very dangerous for them. And so these tales, they tried to deal with brutality in our lives, try to explain or help us confront difficult problems.
- [39:10]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
So that almost suggests to me that I guess it would be as opposed to stories that were written or commissioned or promoted by the authorities, whether that's the political authorities or the church or something, to sort of say, here's how we're going to keep the people in line. Here's what we're going to do to make sure that people don't get too upset with the harsh conditions. And instead it's coming up from the people and they're saying, well, things might be harsh, and let's do deal with that reality, but also let's look at our leaders and say, vanity will be punished, or capricious violence will be punished, or injustice will be punished. And at the end of the day, we're going to see that this will. We'll have some satisfaction here, even if things right now might seem like we're in a desperate struggle.
- [40:06]
Jack Zipes
Right. You summed it up beautifully. In many ways, one could say that the fairy tales were more important to the common people than, let us say, the Bible or the church. Religious types of tales that try to dictate, one could say, what the laws are. But, you know, in the fairy tales, once you enter the forest, nobody can regulate the lives of the people. You can't imagine what might happen there. Whereas in the civilizing process that we've Developed in almost every country really dictates the way that we should run our lives, whereas the fairy tale does not dictate to anything to anyone.
- [40:53]
Jack Wilson
Right, okay.
- [40:55]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
So in analyzing fairy tales and taking a kind of grown up or scholarly approach to them and what they're doing, you have a famous predecessor, Bruno Bettelheim, and his book the Uses of Enchantment. But I understand that you were kind of immediately opposed to Bettelheim's theories. And maybe what was he saying about fairy tales and what's your view of.
- [41:20]
Jack Wilson
What he was saying?
- [41:22]
Jack Zipes
He tried to apply or did apply sort of Freud's theory with regard to children or how we behave with one another and how we deal with trauma or mental difficulties. He was very orthodox in the way that he analyzed the tales based on particular theories that Freud had. By the way, he was a liar. When he came to in, I think it was in the 1940s. He fled in from Austria. He was Austrian, Jewish, and he fled the Nazis. He landed in Chicago. At any rate, he calmed his way. You know, foreigners, sometimes with an accent can be very impressive. And he was a very dictatorial and lying person. And eventually he committed suicide to end his life. And what he wrote had nothing whatsoever to do with the way children behave. I took some of his theories and tried to test them out in public schools and became a storyteller myself and worked with children. And books were written by parents of children who were under his care about how he harmed children. So it really is a shame for anyone to read what he wrote because none of it worked. None of it could be applied with regard to children's health or mental difficulties. So I find him to be a very dark character.
- [43:06]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
Did he think fairy tales were somehow helping children deal with Freudian types of issues as they were developing as human being developing into adults or.
- [43:20]
Jack Zipes
Yeah, yeah.
- [43:21]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
And you found that that couldn't really be replicated. That it wasn't what he was saying about what was happening in his schools wasn't true.
- [43:28]
Jack Zipes
Right. He had, I think it was an institute. And in that institute he trained people to analyze how children were relating to one another. But he never really was a practitioner. In other words, he did not go for years the way I did and others working with children and seeing how the children themselves behaved and set up their own standards with regard to how they wanted to relate to one another, to other humans beings and the difficulties they had. It was just like abysmal. Abysmal.
- [44:07]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
Okay, let's take a quick break, and then when we come back, let's Turn.
- [44:11]
Jack Wilson
To your book Buried Treasures.
- [44:13]
Jack Zipes
Sure.
- [44:24]
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- [45:30]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
Okay, we are back. So we talked about fairy tales as coming out of an oral tradition and kind of welling up from the people. The stories are out there for the gathering, but of course that almost seems to skip a step, which is that they come to us in these different variants and there are authors and illustrators at work in selecting and probably revising and framing them for us, presenting them to us in some way. So I gather that that's kind of what you're setting out to do in Buried Treasures is that part of it is letting us see some of these past authors and illustrators and explain exactly what they did.
- [46:12]
Jack Zipes
Yeah, I think that there are artists and writers from earlier periods who really contributed to the cultures in which they were living and try to use their stories or illustrations and so on to deal with major conflicts in the world. And so these writers and illustrators, whom I've discovered in Europe and also in the United States, are extremely important to, let us say, read or reread, because they still say something to us that may help us deal with what is going on in the world today. And so this is one of the reasons why I've excavated or tried to excavate these really courageous and imaginative, unique people. Remember, I'm a junkie, so I've collected their works over the years and I finally decided in several years ago I formed my own printing press called Little Mole and Honey Bear, and I printed books. For a while I was a publisher and editor all in one and brought out about five or six books. Because I had retired from the university, publishing houses were too slow for me and I tried to gather together the best writers that I knew and issued them through this publishing house.
- [47:48]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
So can you give us an example or two of some of the authors you talk about and tell us how they demonstrate the power and relevance of fairy tales and reflect the context of their own era?
- [48:01]
Jack Zipes
Sure. I'll begin with Edouard Laboulai, who was a French political writer, actually a major lawyer, one could say, in France during the revolution in the 19th century. And he wrote for three massive collections of fairy tales that had a great deal to do with the rise of democracy. And he also was one of the founders of the Statue of Liberty that was sent as a gift to New York City. So he's sort of the oldest of the people I collected. But there are others, like Yusuf Emery Kellen, who was a Hungarian Jew who fought in World War I and became a pacifist because he hated the wars. And after the war, he became a great characterist in Germany and then Switzerland and fled the Nazis and then came to America and worked with League of Nations and the United nations, and then wrote books for children. One of them is called Yusuf the Ostrich. It's all about an ostrich in Africa who saves American forces because he is a messenger, he's swift, and the ostrich knows how to read and write and speak. A great book to have published with wonderful illustrations. Not only the text was by him, but he also did the illustrations. And then, of course, another book that I think is really brilliant is Tis to the Boy With Green Thumbs of Peace, by Maurice Daun, who was a French resistance fighter during World War II. And he wrote this amazing book about a boy who has these green fingers, and anything he touched would bloom. And he could also end wars because he turned rifles and cannons into. Or he prevented them from killing. And that's a novel that is brilliantly illustrated by a friend of mine. And so I could go on and on. There were about 13 or 14 in the book, the buried treasures of writers who actually put their lives on the line because they wrote their stories against fascism. This was a period that I chose, was a period from the First World War to the end of the Second World War. And almost all of them had to flee for their lives because they spoke out or wrote or illustrated. And I chose the ones who developed fairy tales instead of using weapons to combat the fascism that was rising during these times. And there's a parallel to what's happening today, because we're living in a time when fascism is rising, rearing its ugly head again here in America, and not only in America, but also in Europe. There are a lot of politicians who've become dictators and are destroying the lives of people. Putin is a good example. But even here in the United States, we have. We're really threatened by fascism when you get somebody like Mr. Trump. And. And it's really important that we bring back these books.
- [51:33]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
So the title of your book refers to political fairy tales. And is this what you mean, that these were fairy tales that were more than just stories of love or, you know, someday my prince will come. But they are specifically setting out to expose the nature of an unjust regime or a. A dictatorial type of leader, for example.
- [51:56]
Jack Zipes
These are people who actually lived the fairy tales that they wrote. One could say it's really amazing. I mean, when you look at the biographies, which short biographies that I wrote in the book about how these people like Karl Schwitters, the great major international artists who fled the Nazis and wrote fairy tales opposing them, or another Hungarian, Bela Balac, he too, fought in the Hungarian risings in after World War I. And then the philosopher Hans Bloch, who fled the Nazis and opposed the Nazis and came to America and wrote about hope. All of these people, not only did they write these types of imaginative narratives, but they lived them. They lived them, and they transformed, or let us say, they experimented with different arts in a way to show people what was really, one could say, evil in the world. Fairy tales generally deal with evil. And so these people. But it's not by chance that they turn to the fairy tale, to an imaginative literature. I mean, Franz Kafka is another person who did this. We don't call his tales fairy tales, but they're pretty close to that. So, yes, I think that most of the best fairy tales in the world are political and really can provide us with some sort of insight into what is happening to us and why it is happening to us.
- [53:44]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
Are these mostly people who were rewriting the stories of the Brothers Grimm or Sleeping Beauty and Little Red Riding Hood and so on, or are these fairy tales that they're inventing to say basically, well, I could write about this as a journalist or as an essay, but instead, I'll put it in the first form of a fairy tale, and I'll say it's about a king in a kingdom. But it will be clear to my readers that I'm talking about the leader, that we'll all know who I'm actually talking about. But it might be a way for me to avoid the censors or to reach people who otherwise might not be open to hearing this criticism.
- [54:25]
Jack Zipes
All of these writers and illustrators. I could provide you with a list of 40 or 50 more. All of them knew the classical fairy tales. They knew the Brothers Grimm. They knew Anderson. They knew all the tales that came from the past. And they didn't rewrite them. What they did was use a lot of the motifs and the conflicts and rivalries and things that have occurred in fairy tales in a way that they would address to a certain extent what was happening in the world so that people would think differently and oppose the type of fascism or oppression that they were facing in the early 20th century. So that you get. Bela Balach and Lisa Tetzner wrote a play about a young boy who came from a very. A proletarian family where they had no food to eat. And the young boy goes out to get some bread because this family is starving. And he encounters a rabbit. This rabbit talks to him and has huge ears that he turns into propellers. And the rabbit takes the boy throughout the world to show who is causing the misery that everybody is experiencing. And he returns to his family with an understanding of what he has to do, what his mission should be or not should be, but that he feels is going to be. So this is an example of what all of these writers were trying to do that I talk about in this book in many different ways. They reinterpreted the motifs and, let us say, incidents that happen in fairy tales and in a different way because they wanted to try to address the problems that people were having at the beginning of the 20th century in Europe and also in North America.
- [56:37]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
You can imagine a story like that being written from the point of view of. Of a leader or someone who was trying to be sympathetic to a government, saying, basically, here was a noble, brave leader whose problem was so many people in his country didn't want to work and they were lazy and they wanted things for free or something. And instead, by shifting it and being from the point of view of a boy who's trying to get bread, who's hungry, our sympathy is immediately with the boy. And that's the hero. Right. We think, well, of course he shouldn't be hungry. He should get the bread. And here's a way to find what it is that's preventing him from getting it. It's using the power of a narrative and a quest journey and all of that to kind of put us on the side of the regular folks rather than the people in power who so often get their side of the story told right.
- [57:36]
Jack Zipes
Exactly. You summed it up much better than I can.
- [57:45]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
Okay, so are there Any writers in particular that you hope will be rediscovered? I know you're paying tribute to them in this book, but there must be some where you think, boy, if people would only know more about this author, he or she could be someone that they would really enjoy reading.
- [58:03]
Jack Zipes
Yeah. One of my favorite writers is Gianni Rodari. He's an Italian writer who joined the Italian resistance in the 1930s and was a teacher in high schools. But after the war, he joined the Communist Party in Italy and then became a writer and then wrote tales for children that are very sophisticated and appeal both to adults and also to children. But he worked with different schools in Italy after the war and developed all sorts of imaginative, wonderful, unusual fairy tales and also developed a program for children which I translated called the Grammar of Fantasy. And in that he supplied sort of the text that I sort of used myself in developing a program here in Minneapolis called Neighborhood bridges. For about 20 years, I worked with children in schools in inner cities and helping the children to become masters of their own lives. In other words, we did not want to preach or. Or use any pedagogical rules that would show children how they could become Autonomous. And for 20 years, it was amazing experience that I had with about. I trained about 50 or 60 people to work with me. And once the pandemic happened, the program has now disappeared. But a lot of the people who were in that program have set up a. Another program called Speaking Out. They've come back into the schools. So this is Johnny Rodari's work, and a lot of the stories we use were from the stories that he wrote. He is not known in America. It's a publishing house in New York City that has promised to bring out my book, the Grammar Fantasy, one more time. But they've been slow in doing. And I've translated a number of his fairy tales, but I haven't found a publisher yet who would undertake publishing all of his tales. So that's a mission that I have in front of me, among other missions that I've set for myself.
- [60:33]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
So let me return to the story we began with. With Albert Einstein. What do you think he had in mind when he said that the boy who. I mean the grandmother said, to be a great person of science, what should the boy do? And Einstein replied, fairy tales. What do you think he was thinking?
- [60:54]
Jack Zipes
Well, I think maybe I got it from Einstein. I'm not too sure, but I think that the fairy tales really do discuss what the importance of. Of trying to become your own, let us say, teacher. In other words, I think the question that he raises is, how can you be your own person? Or how is it possible for you to become so autonomous that you can really critique the world and understand the world and make it a better place? So, yeah, the fairy tales do encourage us to try to make the world in an imaginative way, a better place for all of us.
- [61:45]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
That is so beautiful. And it seems like it would have been so present on his mind at that period of his life, especially 1943, that it wouldn't have been saying, you know what? Give up science. Don't try to push him towards science. It's not worth it. Look at what happened to me. It's more like, we might need scientists, but we also need human beings. We need full human beings and we need scientists who haven't lost touch with humanity. And whatever walk of life he goes into this young boy, he will be well served by having a good basis.
- [62:27]
Jack Wilson
In fact fairy tales to help him.
- [62:29]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
Develop that sense of humanity.
- [62:31]
Jack Zipes
Right, right. I think he. He was also saying, you've got to use your imagination, young boy, and listen to your heart. And listen to what you. You yourself know what is right. You can find out what is right by yourself. You don't need people to tell you how to be compassionate about human beings in the world, and our surroundings are the nature and so on and so forth.
- [63:05]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
And for those of us who want to get started, whether it's starting with ourselves or starting with our children or grandchildren, they can turn to the book in my hand, Buried Treasures, the Power of Political Fairy Tales.
- [63:18]
Jack Wilson
Jack Zip, thank you so much for.
- [63:20]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
Joining me on the History of Literature.
- [63:22]
Jack Zipes
Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure talking to you.
- [63:27]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
Okay, that's going to do it for.
- [63:30]
Jack Wilson
This episode of the History of Literature. My thanks to Jack Zipes for being here and my apologies for the interview with him falling out of the archives temporarily. We are going to Enjoy the top 10 books of all time pretty soon. Yes, yes, can't wait for that. And we have many great guests coming up. Do you know what the most Chinese Shakespearean play is? We'll hear an argument that it's. Well, I won't surprise. I won't ruin the surprise. We'll hear an argument for a particular play as the most Chinese Shakespearean play. And we'll hear all about the invention of Charlotte Bronte. And we've got some Mike Palindrome coming up. And we're going to hear about a horrible Russian poet, a truly bad one, delightfully bad, but blissfully confident in his poetic gifts. We'll hear about the obsession that the Elizabethans had with wills and willmaking, and we'll find out which 5 reviews Emily Bronte clipped and kept in her drawer. Why did she do that? What did those reviews tell us about how she viewed her novel? Hemingway's Not Far Away, People, and maybe some Pickwick Papers. And Mary Shelley, too, sneaking into October with more subtlety than either her famous doctor or his famous creation.
- [64:52]
Interviewer (possibly Emma or another host)
I'm Jack Wilson.
- [64:53]
Jack Wilson
Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.
- [65:01]
Jonathan F.P. Rose
What does it mean to Live for the Common Good? Introducing the Garrison Institute presents the Common Good, the brand new podcast from the Garrison Institute, a leading, not for profit organization exploring the intersection of contemplation and engaged action in the world. Hosted by me, Jonathan F.P. rose, a co founder of the Garrison Institute, the series dives into the threads that bind us all. First, you'll discover the interdependent nature of life with environmental entrepreneur Paul Hawken and trailblazing plant intelligence researcher Monica Garrett Gagliano. Next, we unlock the mysteries of the mind with renowned psychiatrist Dan Siegel and Pulitzer Prize winning author Siddhartha Mukherjee. Finally, we experience compassion in action with social justice activist Conda Mason and environmental leader Bill McKibben. We invite you to listen, reflect and join us in acting for the common good. Follow the Garrison Institute presents the Common Good on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you you are listening now.
- [66:00]
Jack Wilson
The town of Milton may seem normal.
- [66:02]
Sean Marchese
At first glance, but the shadows are cursed and the expansive woods surrounding town are forbidden.
- [66:07]
Jack Wilson
They call it the void and nobody comes back alive.
- [66:10]
Jack Zipes
You're headed straight for the void.
- [66:12]
Sean Marchese
Milton lives suspended in time, trapped by.
- [66:14]
Jack Wilson
A darkness that seems to be creeping closer and closer. It's safe. The void is kept at bay. Is it though? Join three friends as they embark on an epic journey into the heart of darkness.
- [66:25]
Jack Zipes
The Void.
- [66:25]
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