Podcast Summary: The History of Literature – Episode 770

Title: Shakespeare and Civility (with Indira Ghose) | Robert W. Service and "The Cremation of Sam McGee"
Host: Jacke Wilson
Guest: Indira Ghose (Emeritus Professor of English, University of Fribourg, Switzerland)
Date: January 26, 2026

Overview

This episode weaves together two distinct literary explorations:

1. The popularity and cultural place of "verse" poet Robert W. Service, particularly his iconic ballad "The Cremation of Sam McGee."
2. A thoughtful conversation with Indira Ghose about her new book on civility and theater in Early Modern England, focusing especially on Shakespeare and how his contemporaries used theater as a "laboratory" to test and portray the limits and values of civility in a fractured society.

Part I: Robert W. Service and "The Cremation of Sam McGee"

Segment starts: 01:14
Poem recitation begins: 11:16

Key Points

• Introduction to Robert W. Service:

  • Service is described as not being in the league of canonical poets like Wordsworth or T.S. Eliot, even by his own admission, yet achieved massive popularity and wealth from his verse.
  • His poetry collections, especially Songs of a Sourdough (also known as The Spell of the Yukon and Other Verses) were sensational bestsellers—selling more than $3 million (in today’s money).

• Background of Service:

  • Born in England to a Scottish family; lived with relatives in Scotland, tried his hand at several professions (cowboy, farmhand, bank clerk).
  • Eventually found his inspiration among Yukon gold prospectors, capturing their tales in verse, which he would recite at bars and social gatherings.

• Verse vs. Poetry Debate:

  • Service faced criticism for writing “doggerel” or verse rather than “real poetry.” He embraced his populist style, aiming for memorability and accessibility.
  • “Verse, not poetry, is what I was after—something the man in the street would take notice of and the sweet old lady would paste in her album, something the schoolboy would spout and the fellow in the pub would quote. Yet I never wrote to please anyone but myself.” (Service, relayed by Jacke Wilson, 07:14)

• Reading and Reflection on "The Cremation of Sam McGee":

  • Jacke recites the entire poem, noting its vivid setting, humor, macabre twist, and memorable rhythms.
  • The ballad is positioned as an exemplary work of popular (rather than “serious”) poetry—akin to Kipling and Longfellow, meant to entertain and stick in the collective memory.

Notable Quotes

• “Can you think of a poet today who writes a collection that sells through seven editions before its release date and 37 printings in its first few years?” (Co-host, 02:45)
• “The poem tells the story of a society that's shrunk down to two people. That's hard enough to get along. Most of us live in a community of hundreds or thousands or millions. How do we humans get along, then?” (Co-host, 16:35)

Memorable Moment:

• The full recitation of "The Cremation of Sam McGee," including its famous refrain:
  • “There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold…” (11:16–16:28)

Part II: Civility, Pretense, and Shakespearean Drama (with Indira Ghose)

Interview starts: 19:40

Main Discussion Points

Why Civility Mattered in Early Modern England

• Polarization:
  • The period was marked by religious conflict and upheaval between various Christian denominations, alongside political turmoil and rising individualism (21:19–21:55).
• Civility as Social Glue:
  • Civility is both “radically ambivalent” and foundational: it can be a force for mutual respect or a tool of exclusion and status (23:03–24:46).
    • Two traditions:
      • Erasmus: Civility as a path to inclusion, understanding, and social healing—a universal good.
      • Castiglione: Civility as a set of codes for advancement and social distinction, sometimes amounting to tribalism or exclusion.

Civility and Pretense: Performance and Reality

• Civility often demands a degree of pretense, which can elicit suspicion (e.g., is it sincere or merely manipulative?).
• Both Erasmus and Castiglione acknowledge this. Pretense becomes ethically ambiguous: it can be an act of necessary adaptation or a means of power and self-interest (28:26–30:48).
  • “Civility is...an art of performance. It's an act of communication. It's about conveying mutual respect to each other. Whether we actually feel that respect...in the final analysis, it's irrelevant, because what counts...is how we act.” (Ghose, 28:44)

Civility as Control vs. Civility as Rebellion

• Civility can suppress necessary protest (“accept your fate,” “let’s form a committee,” etc.), but it also structures how to have conflict constructively (31:00–33:25).
  • “Civility is how we manage conflict. It's not about whether we disagree, but how we disagree.” (Ghose, 32:05)

The Theater as a Laboratory for Civility (and Incivility)

• Theater in Early Modern England didn’t just mirror society; it interrogated its own role in shaping civility and social boundaries (33:44–36:17).
  • “Drama about drama, about acting, about pretense, about make believe...breaking the fourth wall...plays within plays...call attention to the issue of acting and pretense.” (Ghose, paraphrased, 34:19)
• The institution of theater was itself controversial, accused of promoting sedition and immorality, yet was embraced by the masses.

Examples from Plays

• Hamlet:
  • Addresses the suspicion about pretense (“I know not seems. I'm not faking it...”). Hamlet is constantly performing, but also obsessed with the line between seeming and reality (34:50–35:44).
• Coriolanus:
  • Protagonist rejects civility and pretense, equating both with falsehood and flattery, yet his refusal to perform socially results in catastrophe—exile and betrayal (39:43–43:54).
• Merchant of Venice:
  • Contrasts the “civility” of insiders (the Venetians—charming but exclusionary) with Shylock, the outsider.
  • The famous plea for shared humanity:
    • “Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands?...If you prick us, do we not bleed?” (Ghose, paraphrasing the play, 43:31)

Do the Playwrights Take a Side?

• Generally, they do not moralize or offer easy answers. Shakespeare especially lets the contradictions—between unity and exclusion, sincerity and pretense—play out in irresolvable ways, inviting the audience to grapple with ambiguity (44:23–45:39).

Why the 16th and 17th Centuries Mattered

• Civility has existed throughout global cultures—Confucius, India, etc.—but the early modern European context (mass media, urbanization, and the Reformation) created a uniquely public and conflicted debate (46:33–48:26).

Connection to Contemporary Life

• The conversation draws a parallel between small acts of civility (taking turns in traffic) and larger social reconciliations (religious toleration, coexistence).
  • “It's often, you know, the little things...which tie into this larger sense of the fact that we're all in it together.” (Ghose, 49:29)

Literature as Empathy Machine

• Literature doesn’t provide easy answers but models empathy and the complexity of being human.

  • “If it does do anything, [literature] does teach us...what it means to be human and to have empathy. The fact that there are no easy answers or simple solutions…is something I think literature does do.” (Ghose, 50:45)

• Memorable outside quote:

  • Quoting James Baldwin: “What Shakespeare does is he complicates all battles by insisting on the human riddle.” (50:45)

Notable Quotes (with Timestamps and Attribution)

• “Verse, not poetry, is what I was after, something the man in the street would take notice of...something the schoolboy would spout and the fellow in the pub would quote.” — Robert W. Service (relayed by Jacke Wilson, 07:14)
• “Civility is...an art of performance. It's an act of communication. It's about conveying mutual respect to each other. Whether we actually feel that respect...in the final analysis, it's irrelevant, because what counts...is how we act.” — Indira Ghose (28:44)
• “Civility is how we manage conflict. It's not about whether we disagree, but how we disagree.” — Indira Ghose (32:05)
• “Drama about drama, about acting, about pretense, about make believe...plays within plays...call attention to the issue of acting and pretense.” — Indira Ghose (34:19)
• “What Shakespeare does is he complicates all battles by insisting on the human riddle.” — James Baldwin (quoted by Indira Ghose, 50:45)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening and Service Introduction: 01:14
• Service’s Poetic Approach and Success: 02:45–07:14
• Recitation of "The Cremation of Sam McGee": 11:16–16:28
• Transition to Civility and Society Themes: 16:32–18:07
• Interview with Indira Ghose Begins: 19:40
• Debate over Civility (Erasmus vs. Castiglione): 23:03–24:46
• Pretense and Performance in Civility: 28:26–30:48
• Civility as Social Control/Instrument of Power: 31:00–33:25
• Theater as Laboratory for Civility: 33:44–36:17
• Examples from Shakespeare: 39:43–43:54
• Do Playwrights Moralize on Civility?: 44:23–45:39
• Why Early Modern England Was Unique: 46:33–48:26
• Literature’s Role Today: 50:45–51:53

Tone and Style

The conversation alternates between Jacke Wilson's earnest, lightly humorous, and relatable persona and Indira Ghose's measured, insightful scholar's voice—always considerate of both complexity and accessibility. The episode moves swiftly but is reflective, with a focus on the messiness and importance of how societies manage conflict, then and now.

For the Listener

This episode is ideal for those interested in the boundaries between “high” and “popular” art, the weighty issues of social discord and reconciliation, and the many ways literature can illuminate—even complicate—our efforts to live together. It’s especially rich for fans of Shakespeare, theater history, or anyone thinking about civility in our times.