781 Laurie Frankel's Enormous Wings | My Last Book with Rhodri Lewis

Summary

The History of Literature – Episode 781: Laurie Frankel's Enormous Wings | My Last Book with Rhodri Lewis

Date: March 5, 2026
Host: Jacke Wilson

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Episode Overview

This episode of The History of Literature explores the intersections of literature and life’s seven stages, as famously described by Shakespeare in "As You Like It." Host Jacke Wilson is joined by novelist Laurie Frankel to discuss her latest book, Enormous Wings, a story about aging, agency, and an impossible pregnancy in later life. The conversation dives deep into issues of autonomy, family dynamics, and literary inspirations for depicting old age. Later, Shakespearean scholar Rhodri Lewis returns to muse on which book he’d choose as his last, with a nod to the enduring pleasure of rereading Middlemarch.

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Shakespeare’s Seven Ages of Man and Their Relevance

[01:08–13:21]

• Jacke begins by reflecting on the famed “All the world’s a stage” monologue from As You Like It.
• He walks through each of Shakespeare’s seven ages, drawing parallels to modern experiences and the themes in Laurie Frankel’s novel.
• The blending of life’s stages is likened to Enormous Wings, where the protagonist experiences several life phases at once.
• Key quote:
  “At 68, I’m every age I ever was.” – George Carlin, cited at [22:30]
• Notable moment:
  Jacke humorously muses how life reverts to a “second childishness,” and segues into introducing Laurie Frankel’s novel.

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Laurie Frankel on Writing Enormous Wings

[13:21–59:57]

Introducing Protagonist Pepper Mills

[13:25–16:17]

• Pepper Mills, age 77, moves reluctantly into a Texas retirement community after an accident.
• Pepper is caught between feeling like an outsider and a long-term resident, both in geography and generational experience.
• Quote (Laurie, 13:57):
  “She is 77. She would want me to point out that she married into that ridiculous name… at the beginning of the book, she has just turned 77, and she is just about to be moved into a retirement living community by her children, more or less against her will and better judgment.”

On Aging and Role Reversals

[17:02–25:32]

• The move to retirement is compared to starting college—exciting yet foreboding due to the sense of finality.
• Pepper experiences adolescent anxieties about fitting in, making friends, and adjusting—just at an advanced age.
• The presence of Pepper’s ex-husband in the community underscores shifting family dynamics: decisions now cater to adult children’s convenience.
• Laurie on familial roles, 21:45:
  “At no point does my kid think, oh, I don’t want to be a burden on my mother… My own parents spend a lot of time with exactly that thought. Even the ones who are divorced, even the ones who don’t like each other… I don’t want to be a burden to my children…”

The Shocking Premise: Pregnancy at 77

[25:34–34:29]

• The central conceit: Pepper finds out she’s pregnant at 77, a revelation handled with realism instead of magical causality.
• Medical explanations ground the plot—an experimental cancer treatment has left Pepper able to conceive.
• Jacke, 27:01:
  “The doctor tells her that she’s pregnant. Yes. Okay. So that indeed is the central conceit.”

Navigating Agency, Autonomy & A Changing World

[34:29–36:38]

• Texas law now prohibits abortion, leaving Pepper with no legal option to terminate the pregnancy.
• The novel explores themes of agency, bodily autonomy, and the intersection of pregnancy and old age—how society treats these bodies and the people in them.
• Public opinion intrudes as Pepper becomes an unwilling celebrity, her personal crisis politicized.
• Laurie, 35:25:
  “...everyone gets to have an opinion, everyone gets to weigh in and comment. Suddenly your body is no longer your own… your health care decisions…”

On Writing Old Age & Fictional Empathy

[36:38–41:03]

• Laurie relishes imagining life as a 77-year-old, drawing on relationships with her grandmothers.
• Reflects on the writing advice “write what you know,” and why digging into unknown experiences is crucial for both readers and writers.
• Laurie, 37:15:
  “That is the exercise… of reading as well as writing… I want to be in the mind of someone I don’t know, experiencing things I never will.”

Literary Lineages: Epigraphs and Influences

[41:03–48:29]

• A Wolf Hall–sourced epigraph by Hilary Mantel: “We know it is impossible. The question is who can best endure impossibility?”
  • Jacke and Laurie discuss its resonance; Laurie finds “endure” especially apt for Pepper’s ordeal.
• Maggie Kuhn’s Gray Panthers quote about being heard late in life also frames the narrative.
• The book’s approach to older protagonists is compared to King Lear, The Tempest, A Christmas Carol, and Dickensian narration—treating the unbelievable straight, without apology.
• Laurie, 45:14:
  “All sorts of things that we think are impossible happen anyway. The question is not why has this impossible thing happened, nor how… but now what?”

The Human Experience of Late Life

[48:29–59:57]

• Discussion on society’s tendency to ignore the elderly, missing out on accrued wisdom.
• The book asserts the full range of emotions and agency—love, joy, sexuality—remain for people in later life.
• Laurie wanted to write a story where, even in old age, decisions and actions matter deeply for oneself and others.
• Laurie, 57:05:
  “Old people are also people… And that is, I think, both obvious and sort of ridiculous when we dig down to it…”

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Rhodri Lewis on “My Last Book”

[61:56–64:26]

• Jacke welcomes back Rhodri Lewis, Shakespearean scholar, to answer which book he’d want as his last.
• If death were imminent, his last book would reluctantly be whatever he last read; meaning is lost if not chosen.
• If he had time, he’d reread Middlemarch by George Eliot, for its layered characters and “Shakespearean depth.”
• Key quote (Lewis, 62:58):
  “The book I really want to read right now, reread right now… is Middlemarch, which I have in the back of my mind as my favorite English novel, and I’ve sort of forgotten why…”

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Notable Quotes

• “It’s a strange thing to be undertaking something so new and knowing that it’s probably the last move…” — Laurie Frankel [15:26]
• “It is such a strange conceit for a book, which… is talking about things lots and lots of people experience, as opposed to something that few to zero people ever do.” — Laurie Frankel [27:13]
• “The more you learn and the more wisdom you accrue, the less and less valued it is, the less people are listening to you.” — Laurie Frankel [50:02]
• “How you choose to live this end of your life really matters. Like, it’s the end, but it’s not the last week. It’s just the last step.” — Laurie Frankel [55:44]
• “Old people are also people. Like, yeah, duh.” — Laurie Frankel [57:05]
• “We know it is impossible. The question is who can best endure impossibility.” — Hilary Mantel, cited as epigraph [41:03]

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Key Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Shakespeare’s Seven Ages of Man | 01:08–13:21 | | Introducing Pepper Mills and Her Situation | 13:21–16:17 | | On Role Reversals and Family Dynamics | 17:02–25:32 | | The Impossible Pregnancy Conceit | 25:34–34:29 | | Agency, Law, and Public Perception | 34:29–36:38 | | Writing Old Age: Empathy and Craft | 36:38–41:03 | | Literary Influences & Epigraph Discussion | 41:03–48:29 | | The Value and Experience of Old Age | 48:29–59:57 | | Rhodri Lewis on the Last Book | 61:56–64:26 |

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Memorable Moments

• The playful, candid way Laurie and Jacke discuss aging—both the intimacy and societal awkwardness.
• Pepper's granddaughter giving her a "safe sex" talk at 77 [24:41].
• Comparison of Pepper’s story to Dickens, King Lear, The Tempest, and A Christmas Carol.
• Laurie’s delight at writing beyond her own experience and honoring the reality, agency, and complexity of old age.

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Summary:
This episode is a profound, accessible, and often humorous meditation on aging, autonomy, and narrative possibility. Laurie Frankel’s Enormous Wings uses an “impossible” premise—a septuagenarian pregnancy—to ask universal questions about family, autonomy, and being seen. The hosts and guests draw from Shakespeare, Mantel, and Dickens to show literature’s enduring power to capture all stages of life. Rhodri Lewis’s parting thoughts on Middlemarch cap the episode with the idea that great literature grows with us, offering new depths as we experience life’s later acts.

Transcript

[A]

The History of Literature Podcast is a member of the podglomerate Network and Lit Hub Radio.

[B]

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[C]

And I'm Sean, and together we host the Prancing Pony Podcast. Every week I explore Middle Earth with Sean or with other co hosts lately with in depth analysis and plenty of nerd humor. From the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings and more, it's a great way for first timers to experience J.R.R. tolkien's captivating world. And for longtime fans, it's a deep dive into their favorite stories. So if you're ready to take the next step into beloved world in fantasy literature and become a part of a vibrant, active community of listeners, then look for the Prancing Pony podcast wherever you listen.

[A]

Hello. What happens when your stages of life blur into one another? Shakespeare gave us some insight into that, and our guest today, Laurie Frankel, has written a novel that explores it in a big and getting bigger way. Spoiler alert. Laurie Frankel's Enormous Wings and Laurie Frankel herself, today on the History of Literature. Okay, here we go. I'm Jack Wilson, your host. Welcome to the podcast. This is a fun one. Our longtime friend of the show, Laurie Frankel, is here, and she's going to tell us all about her new novel, Enormous Wings. But first, let's start with Shakespeare. I don't think Laurie will mind. This comes from the play as yous Like It. It's one of Shakespeare's most famous passages. He condenses the entirety of human life into 25 lines. Or so he said. Well, before we get to what he says, let's remember, of course, that Shakespeare himself was a creature of the theater, a playwright, an actor, what was called a sharer, which, in other words, is a partial owner and operator of the productions. So the metaphor here comes naturally to him. All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players. But also, I like to think of this as something that mattered deeply to him. There's something loving about the way he connects, putting on costumes and wearing different faces and playing different parts to life itself. Let's begin. All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players. They have their exits and their entrances. And one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages. We'll pause there. Shakespeare signals what's coming to us. We have different acts. It's not a five act play. There's going to be seven. We have different stages of life. Seven decades we live roughly, especially in his time. Although these are not all neat 10 year portions. They're the seven parts we play from the moment we make our entrance to the time we make our final exit. His lines continue as we march through the seven ages. At first the infant mewling and puking in the nurse's arms. And then the whining schoolboy with his satchel and shining morning face, creeping like snail unwillingly to school. Pause there again. Those first two are pretty recognizable. Being a baby, being a schoolboy. I didn't have a nurse, I just had a mom. But I'm sure I did my share of mewling and puking a satchel. I think of that as more my dad's generation. That's kind of a Leave it to Beaver thing, isn't it? Or am I thinking of those. Those leather straps they used to tie their books around the tie around their books to carry them. What a weird contraption that was. Couldn't just have a bag. I guess if you're using leather, it's a little cheaper to just have a strap. For me, by the time I came along in the 70s, we had backpacks. Although they were not the nifty whiz bang high tech bags they have now. Something made of rough cloth. Canvas I guess was one of my bags. I think I had one made of corduroy too. They were not nearly as waterproof as today's models. What else did I have? A shiny morning face, of course. Was I creeping like snail unwillingly? To school reader, what do you think? Your humble podcaster, Jack Wilson. I was at school 20 minutes before it opened. Every single day, standing eagerly outside the doors, waiting for them to be unlocked so I could go in and start learning back to Shakespeare. And then the lover sighing like furnace with a woeful ballad made to his mistress's eyebrow. That is wonderful. That's absolutely wonderful. A young lover, a Romeo, let's say Shakespeare set the template with Romeo and with his own sonnets for what young lovers are like, sighing like furnace overheated on fire. The sighs are necessary because of the heat. That's perfect. And a woeful ballad made to his mistress's eyebrow. Shakespeare is tweaking his own devotion to love poetry. His and ours as well. This guy Shakespeare, man so good. Three ages down and four to go. Then a soldier full of strange oaths and bearded like the Pard. Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel, seeking the bubble reputation even in the cannon's mouth. We're not all soldiers, of course, but this age can stand for that kind of period. When you're starting out and you're intense early jobs. Office warriors, bearded like the Pard, that's short for leopard. Is this who we are in our 20s and 30s, swearing strange oaths? Swearing just because. Just why not deliver some strange oaths? We're free. We want to use bad words, say bad things, experiment. We grow a beard, look a little rougher. We get jealous, we get in fights. We want to make a name for ourselves. We'll stare down danger like a cannon's open mouth. It can blow us up. But hey, we're blowing something else up in another sense. Blowing air into something else, which is our reputation. The bubble reputation. It's false. We know it, Shakespeare knows it. But it feels important. Some people inflate that bubble all their lives. But luckily for most of us, we move out of this stage. We move to the final three stages, as do Shakespeare's lines. And then the justice. In fair round belly, with good cape unlined, with eyes severe and beard of formal cut, full of wise saws and modern instances. And so he plays his part. It's fun to be young, but it's probably more fun to be middle aged. No more strange oaths, no more rough beard, no more strive. Our beard now is. It's formal trim. No more striving, no more worries that we're not getting enough credit now we've succeeded a bit. Our bellies have rounded. We're not as lean and hungry. We eat capons, just a kind of fancy kind of chicken. Let's not go into that too much. We have a bit of luxury, that's the point, some indulgence. But our eyes are still severe. We can deliver wise saws and modern instances. We can win legal arguments. In other words, we can carry the day with our wisdom. We've seen some stuff. We're better now. I'm kind of surprised how well this still translates. I'd say he's four for four, right? Or no, five for five. Not too shabby. Shakespeare's. He saw some things. Okay, next age for Shakespeare, the sixth age shifts into the lean and slippered pantaloon with spectacles on nose and pouch on side. His youthful hose well saved a world too wide for his shrunk shadow. Shank in his big manly voice turning again toward childish trouble. Pipes and whistles in his sound. You might think I was acting there with my voice, but I was actually just about to sneeze, which I had to edit that out. But here's where we start to see Laurie's book coming into view. That's why I'm going through these lines. We start to age. We shrink. In the sixth age, according to Shakespeare, our clothes are suddenly too big. We're comfortable now, but it's. We're in slippers, right? Slippered pantaloons, Comfortable clothes. That's how I read that. Pajamas. But it's clear we're on the downward slope. How do we know that? Because we're shrinking. Physical changes are happening. And that big manly voice we once had now sounds more like a child's. We open our mouths expecting thunder, but what comes out are pipes and whistles. A high childish treble. Childish? You're in your sixth age. Let's say you're 60. Let's say you're 65. You're starting to sound like a child again. What's going on there? And then, of course, here we go back to Shakespeare, last scene of all. That ends this strange, eventful history. His second childishness and mere oblivion. Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything. Look at that. We vanish right back into zero. Second childishness and then death. Why a second childhood? Why a second childishness for someone in the last age of life? Well, again, there's the physical breakdown of what happens. We lose our teeth. That's like a baby, right? You have teeth in every age except the first one and the seventh one. We lose our vision and then we die. It's like those universes that expand for a while and then retract suddenly back into their original position. Like, I've heard there were lots of big bangs, but they happened like milliseconds. Not even milliseconds. Whatever is the quantum. Whatever is the mathematical equivalent of almost no time at all. They stretched out and they went right back. Our own universe might be retracting back, but some universes did it in an instant. That's kind of like what's happening with Shakespeare's ages of life here all of a sudden, sans teeth, sans eye, sans taste, sands everything. You're back in oblivion where you were before you were born. Now, why is this of Interest here and now today on this episode, because, people, my friends, Laurie's novel is all about this. Shakespeare's age has the seventh age crashing back into the first. Laurie's protagonist, I'm not going to spoil too much here because she and I are going to discuss it. But her protagonist has her ages mashed together, too. She's, I'd say, in the sixth age, maybe entering the seventh. And suddenly she's back at the tail end of the second, headed into the third with an event that says you might need to relive the fourth. Can you be in the seventh age of life and manage to do the things that your body is designed to do in the fourth? Okay, enough with the abstractions. Let's make this concrete. Laurie Frankel is next. Okay. Joining me once again is longtime friend of the show, Laurie Frankel, who's been part of our day before Thanksgiving tradition for several years now. We're departing from that schedule to discuss her newly released book, In Enormous Wings, which I believe is her sixth novel. Laurie Frankel, welcome back to the history of literature.

[B]

Thank you, Jack. I'm so glad to be here always.

[A]

So it feels a little odd not to start out by asking you about soups and guests and whether you're hosting and all that. I was thinking, should I ask if you're throwing a party for Valentine's day or the 4th of July or 4th of July is in the book. Maybe that's a little too on the nose, but I guess we should. And it's a little too early to ask you about your plans for. For next Thanksgiving, so why don't we just go straight to the book. And I wanted to ask you about the narrator, Pepper Mills. Who is she, how old is she and where is she living?

[B]

Okay, so she is 77. She would want me to point out that she married into that ridiculous name. And she points it out herself really, at every opportunity. She is living in Austin, Texas. Though she is originally from Brooklyn and she's been in Texas many, many years, she still is something. She's somewhere between an insider and an outsider. She's raised her children there. Those children are now raising their children there, but she isn't from there. And she, at the beginning of the book, she just turned 77. And she has also is just being moved into, or just about to be moved into retirement living community by her children and more or less against her will and better judgment.

[A]

Yeah. Although she kind of knows. I mean, she was in a car accident, she hit a priest, so she doesn't Have a car. And that part felt so real to me, that move in. Because, you know, it is. It's exciting in a way. It's like moving into a dorm, except that college is all exciting possibilities and a retirement community has a wing for memory care. And it feels like there's all these markers that you're not opening all these new doors, but that you're closing some off. And this is one of your last stops on your journey.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And that is a strange dichotomy, I think. And she. In fact, the book kind of starts in that place where, on the one hand, where it's a strange thing to be undertaking something so new and knowing that it's probably the last move, that it has all of the trappings of being a new move, where all of your stuff is in boxes and you've gotten rid of a whole bunch of things and everything has to be rearranged and you have all new neighbors and. And a whole new way of life to get to know. It's moving. It's. It's the same kind of move that. That one does any number of times in one's life. And yet she knows, and is probably right, that it's probably the last time she'll do it. And that is a very strange mix, I think, for a new beginning.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And, of course, everyone she's moving in with has also undertaken the same move for the same more or less reason. They're all old people. And that, too, is unlike anything she's. She's done before.

[A]

Right. And in a way, you know, it's. Whenever I visit one of these places, I think how nice it is, and there is this sort of freedom that comes with it, and no shoveling snow, and restaurants are on site and all of that. And some people that I've known have gotten very tired of their homes and having to take care of them, and maybe they've gotten lonely and things like that, but it just seems like some people are ready for it, some people are not quite ready. And most people probably have a lot of mixed emotions.

[B]

Yes, yes, of course. Lots of. Lots of mixed emotions and emotions that I think are sort of adolescent, which is also, I think, a great irony for the aged, you know, to undertake something like this and also be feeling, you know, feeling as if you're moving into your college dorm and feeling, you know, having all of these new feelings about what if people don't like me and what are the unspoken rules here and what are the clicks and how will I make friends and how will I meet people and how will I get around without a car? These are questions that, that we sort of last asked as 16 year olds. Just find oneself doing it again at 77 was, it seemed to me a book length project like that. That just never stopped being interesting to me.

[A]

Yeah, me too. I really did find that all of that interesting. And her ex husband Roger already lives there, which huge curveball that she has to face and that what I really enjoyed about that was the way you handled that where it's not only is it, oh, here's some built in conflict or some built in plot, but this emphasizes where she is in life because you can see that this is a decision that makes total sense for her kids. Yeah, it's. Well, this is, you know, why don't you just live where dad lives and you know, that way we don't have to travel across town in two different directions just to see you guys and, and we can, you know, keep an eye on you better and we can visit you more often and all of that. But it's sort of like you get to the age where, you know, you, you spend the bulk of your adult life where you make decisions that make sense for you and suddenly you're making, you know, and other people can just kind of deal with that and then suddenly you're making a decision that is not the choice you would have made necessarily, but it, you recognize that it's important for the kids and you're willing to sacrifice something because it makes more sense for them.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I'm, I mean I'm 25 years younger than Pepper and so I'm still, I still have a, a child who's more or less a child and I feel like such a large percentage of my decisions are made with her in mind. It's not for her convenience. Right. It's, and it's certainly not convenient. And it was that switch that I thought was so interesting. Like on the one hand, I am certainly well practiced in making all of my decisions with my child's well being just in mind, but frankly above my own because, you know, because largely that's the way parenting is, but the switch that must happen when that child comes of age and has children of their own. It's not that you're not still making decisions for their well being and happiness, but, but, but it's a very different calculus than that I am responsible for bringing this human up in the world and the her ex husband. I mean it is a thing that didn't occur to me until I wrote It. And after I wrote it, I thought, gosh, this must happen all the time for exactly that reason, because it's easier for the children. And so these people who have not only made this decision to live apart, but what is, you know, often just a very, very painful, difficult decision to live apart, are then at the end of their lives, it turns out, nope, sorry, you can't have that choice. The choice is no longer available to you. You have to live. You have to live together again. Both because it's easier for the children and because having decided that this is the right place for my parent, I would, you know, logically decide it was the place for parents, both of my parents, even if they don't much like each other.

[A]

Right, right. And from the parents perspective, there's a feeling that, well, I'll have a hard time resisting this decision because I don't want to be a burden. And I'm headed toward a time in life, maybe I'm not at the moment, but I'm headed that way. And I don't want to do that to my kids.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And that's the opposite of what I was just talking about, where I think children and parents are really, really good at knowing roles. And then at some point they flip. At no point does my kid think, oh, I don't want to be a burden on my mother. My kid definitely wants to be a burden on me.

[A]

That's the deal.

[B]

That's the deal. That's what we have both signed up for here. At no point has it ever occurred to her to think, gosh, I. I really must be a burden on my mom. And yet my own parents spend as do everyone's parents who are, you know, who are my age and their age, spend a lot of time with exactly that thought. In fact, it seems to be the thing that all of our parents, even though they're really, really wildly different, agree on. Even the ones who are divorced, even the ones who don't like each other, even no matter, you know, however different they are in so many ways, this is what they agree. I don't want to be a burden to my children, even though my children spent all of those many, many years being a burden to me.

[A]

Right. And then the other thing that makes this so interesting and so different from, let's say, going off to the dorm in college is I was reminded of that great George Carlin line where he said, At 68, I'm every age I ever was. And he says, I'm 68 and 55 and 21 and 3 and then he has the punchline where he says especially three. But what interests me is just the observation that as you age, you know what those earlier ages are. And so a college student might go off to the dorm and think, well, maybe someday this would be like what it's like to move into a retirement community kind of. But when you're 77 and doing it, you remember what it was like to move and to go somewhere new and to, you know, they, they. There's a. We can move the plot along a little bit. She's. She has a chance to go to a senior prom. Well, the word senior has got a different definition from how the last prom she went to, but it is this feeling where she's going to that remembering what it was like to go to, to prom. Prom.

[B]

Yeah. Right, right. And not just remembering, but being able to feel those memories, to kind of go back there and inhabit it. Not least I think because she's got time because she's retired and her children are, you know, are off living their own lives now, shouldn't have small children anymore. And I think that that must leave some time to really contemplate this stuff. And it, these are very visceral memories. And you know, prom and moving into a dorm and moving house at all and being the new kid, those are things that stick with you. That. And it's very much like a sense memory. And so that is also, I just think, you know, book length subject. It's another one of these things that just. That never ever stopped being interesting to write.

[A]

Yeah. And she has a 15 year old granddaughter who gives her a safe sex talk.

[B]

Right. Yeah.

[A]

Which is another one of those role reversal things. And you sort of feel like, well, I'm the one other people are looking after now, including grandchildren, throw them into the mix. And then she starts spending some time with her neighbor, an Englishman who was called Moth.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then what happens to Pepper? And I should just say everything we've talked about could have been a whole book. I mean, just this, just the move and the things that she encounters there and all of that. I mean you could find enough drama for a book in that situation. And we haven't even talked about sort of the central conceit.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So let's get that on the table. I'm assuming you're not spoiling it. It's right in the press release and on the COVID of the book and everything. So I think we can talk about it.

[B]

Yeah, it is. Yeah, we can talk about it. It's true. I think if we could have kept it quiet. It would be quite a twist. But I definitely wrote it. The first part of the book. I know that the reader almost certainly knows. Yeah. What's coming. I mean, I should say that myself, I do not read the backs of books or reviews or press materials for exactly this reason, because I don't want to know anything going in. But I think that that reader is pretty rare. And I certainly wrote the beginning of this book hoping that you're turning pages in order to figure out how exactly this is going to happen, rather than what. Exactly how it's going to happen, rather than what it is that is going to happen. Yeah. She moves in, she makes friends, she starts spending time with her neighbor. She falls in love. She's very surprised to fall in love at this age, but then she gets sick and she is nauseous and she has headaches and she is having trouble remembering things and keeping her. Her brain straight. And.

[A]

And you're thinking, at this age, is this dementia? Is it Alzheimer's? Is it maybe diabetes? Is it some of the medications I'm on? And instead the doctor.

[B]

The doctor tells her that she's preg.

[A]

She's pregnant.

[B]

The doctor tells her that she's pregnant. Yes.

[A]

Yes. Okay.

[B]

So that indeed is the central. Is the central conceit. And it's certainly what I went into this book with.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Yeah, right. And it is the idea behind. Well, it's the idea behind the title, but it's also truly the idea behind the whole thing. It is. It is certainly what I went into the book with. My. It's a funny thing, I think. I mean, it's such a strange. What do I want to say about this? It's a very strange conceit for a book which is otherwise, as you say, fairly. It's not even that it's realism. It's just that it's talking about things that lots and lots and lots of people experience as opposed to something that few to zero people ever, ever do.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

Yeah. And that was part of my idea, too, is to explore that dichotomy. What happens when you drop something so unbelievable into a book which is otherwise completely believable? And not just believable, but familiar.

[A]

Right. Okay, let's take a quick break, and then when we come back, I want to talk about how it happens and what it means for Pepper Mills. Okay, so we're back. So, you know, you. You talked about this being something that happens to almost nobody, but you did give, like, a scientific explanation. This isn't Something that, you know, happens to her through magic or through some sort of divine intervention or a miracle or just something inexplicable or something like that. I found it, you know, that it's plausible. I mean, pregnancies, I understand, can happen to women in their 70s, but historically that's been through IVF and, and things like that. But the explanation we get is that Pepper had been part of an experimental treatment in the 1980s in connection with her breast cancer that they subsequently learned stimulated ovulation, the treatment that she had been given. And so they think at first this just happens to be random, that you came in to see the doctor because you didn't feel well, this isn't going to be a viable pregnancy, Chances are very low. And this is going to terminate itself. It probably would have done so without you ever even knowing that you were pregnant. That's the first thought. But then it turns out she's actually pregnant. Pregnant.

[B]

Yep. That's. Yep, that's definitely some of it, yeah.

[A]

So at, at that point, what is she facing? I mean, we've talked about how she was, where she was in life and what this move to the community meant to her, but what new questions does this present?

[B]

Well, so indeed, at first the answer seems to be, well, we don't know. In fact, okay, at first the answer is we don't know why this has happened. But it doesn't matter because it's going to unhappen any minute now. It's going to terminate as so many pregnancies do before anyone even knows that they're pregnant at many ages, probably not this one, but many, many ages. And this happens all the time. And it is just a fluke that they have caught it, not to worry. And in fact, at first they all think it's really good news because indeed they had feared as their age that those symptoms could have indicated something much, much worse.

[A]

Yeah, right, right.

[B]

And so at first the reasons why don't matter. And then because the pregnancy continues, the reasons why turn out to matter very much. And as the pregnancy continues and does not terminate itself, she becomes very keen to terminate it herself. She needs an abortion for many, many reasons, not least because she's 77 years old.

[A]

She's 77. So there's a question. Is she strong enough, carry a baby and go through labor? The, the baby's going to have a 78 year old father who's going to raise the baby. This is quite a legacy to, to leave your own kids.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And even before we get worried about Whether she can survive labor and parenting. We're worried about whether she can survive pregnancy, which comes with all sorts of health challenges that are challenging for people in their twenties, nevermind for, for people in their, in their seventies. I wrote this book the first time in 2017 and spilled many, many words trying to convince you that this woman would do anything other than have an abortion. And therefore it really just did not work. You know, she, she could not in 2017, have an abortion for plot reasons I didn't want her to because that isn't what I wanted the book to be about. And when I picked it back up again, this time in 2023, I reset it in Texas, thereby bridged that, that plot hole and refocused the book where it was meant to be in the first place, which was, you know, on these issues of agency and bodily autonomy and what pregnant bodies have in common with, with elderly bodies and the way that we treat them and the people who live in them.

[A]

Well, pregnancy, it kind of, I mean, in a baby, it kind of eats away at the body, doesn't it? I mean, it like drains the woman's body of nutrients and important things that human bodies need to live and survive. And you just can imagine, like you said, it's. It's hard enough for someone in their 20s, somebody who's 77. You just feel like, how can this woman go through this when she's probably taking a lot of multivitamin supplements and so on, just to get the things that she needs, let alone have enough to transfer to a growing child.

[B]

Right. And go through all of the changes of pregnancy and get that body safely around.

[A]

Yeah, right, right. The mobility of it and the. Is your frame going to be strong enough?

[B]

Right. Yes. And those are the changes that I think happened because of pregnancy on the body. And then there are also the changes that happen because of pregnancy on a person, socially and politically and, you know, and their place in the world. And those were also, I thought, important questions to ask about this pregnancy. And how is this pregnancy different from any other? And also how is it the same?

[A]

Right. And the other thing, politics gets introduced in a couple of ways. One is that Texas laws don't allow for an exception, and so she doesn't have the options that she might have had 10 years ago or 15 years ago. On the other hand, she's also sort of an instant celebrity that people will view it as well. This is the perfect reason why we have to have some laws with exceptions, or other people will say this is a scientific miracle. This is A perfect example of God wanting something to happen and you can see where she's going to be caught in the middle. The last thing, thing, somebody who is undertaking something that's going to be this strenuous and this frightening and this dangerous is to think there's going to be crowds of people outside my house with signs and cameras and, and, and chants.

[B]

Right, right. And this is what happens to pregnant people too, is that all sorts of pregnant people, not, not just 77 year old pregnant people, is that everyone gets to have an opinion, everyone gets to, to weigh in and comment. Suddenly your body is no longer your own, but is a thing that can be weighed in on by strangers and neighbors and the press and the government and all sorts of people who have, have no business being involved in, you know, in, in your body decisions and your political decisions and your life decisions and you know, your health care decisions. I mean all of this. And so, you know, she at once finds herself in a unique position and actually a position that is shared by many, many, many people, including herself, just not for, you know, 47 years when her, when her last child was born.

[A]

Right, okay, let me take a step back from the book a little bit and talk about the creative writing suggestion you often hear of. Write what you know, you've, you've never been 77. Was it hard to imagine your way into Pepper's mind?

[B]

No, it was a delight. I mean that is such an interesting. It is, it is maybe the most oft offered piece of writing advice and I am honestly not sure I even understand what it means.

[A]

Well, right, because who, I mean, you know, you could think about just about any book. Mark Twain was not a kid who was on a raft with, you know, like it just, just over and over. It's men writing about women, women writing about men. People are obviously always writing about things that they don't know and can't know.

[B]

Right? Yeah. And that is the exercise, it seems to me, of reading as well as writing. It is why I love fiction and long term fiction in particular, novels in particular, because for exactly that reason I want to, I want to be in the mind of someone, I don't know, experiencing things that I never will. That's what I like about it. But in this case I, I was very close with both of my grandmothers. They did both eventually move into in fact the same retirement community because it was easier for my parents and, and you know, and for me. And I used to, I used to go visit them when I was in high school. I would go after School sometimes. In fact, I. I had a job working in the. The. I was waiting in their retirement community for a little while and I was very close with both of them. So that made it easy to write that character. My own parents are more or less this age, and so though they are still living in the house I grew up in, that I think helped me have a sense of the age and its preoccupations and bodies and what happens to them, that kind of thing. But also what always happens is that not at first, but eventually through revision, these characters stop being characters and start being people. You. You know, I think it's one of those things that authors say and that sounds, you know, very woo woo, like, oh, she became a real person. And it's. It isn't woo woo at all. It's just that you write it and you write it and you write it. You spend a lot of hours with this person and they become consistent within, you know, within the parameters that you've laid out for them. Maybe, I don't know. But it gets easier and easier as it goes along. At the beginning, I find that I'm making all sorts of decisions for her, and by the end, I find that. That she's talking to her for herself.

[A]

Right. It's like I. I can't remember now, was it Flaubert saying this about Emma Bovary or who was it who said something like, well, my protagonist has just done it. She's left her husband. I never would have thought her capable of it.

[B]

Yeah. Yes, yes, that's exactly what it is. Is that flavor? That's really good. Yeah.

[A]

So many I can't remember now. Okay, let me ask you about Hilary Mantel. Are you a fan of her works?

[B]

Oh, yes, I love Hilary Mantell.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. The Mirror and the Light is, which is the third of the Wolf hall book. It came out while I was on writing retreat and I was saving it for a little reward for myself for having been very productive during this writing retreat, theoretically. And about a week into said writing retreat, I started it on March 3, 2020. So about a week later, I left writing retreat and went home and quarantined for the next year and a half. And the first thing I did was read that book. That was my very first quarantine book. And I mean, I don't know how much that contributed, but certainly not the entirety of why that is a, gosh, I don't know, maybe a top 10 read for me. I love, I mean, I love that book. Well, they're all really good. I Mean, everything she does I really love. And all three of those Wolf hall books I think are amazing. Like amazing amazing. And you really have to. The third one doesn't land without the first two. So then like I make this book recommendation to people, I'm like, great, you need to read the following 1800 pages, but it's so worth it.

[A]

So the mirror and the light is also where you got the epigraph or one of the two epigraphs. And you didn't doctor the quote, but you selected the quote in a way that I thought made it even better than it was if you had used the full quote. Right. Well, I got into this. So the epigraph is we know it is impossible. The question is who can best endure impossibility? And the full quote is, we both know what it is to serve this king. We know it is impossible. The question is who can best endure impossibility? But by taking out that first sentence where we've subtracted the part about we both know what it is to serve this king, you've made it so open ended and mysterious and applying to any kind of impossibility. So I mean, let's apply it to the book. Enormous wing. So the pregnancy is the impossibility, you could say. And who has to endure it? Pepper has to endure it. But so does moth and so do the kids and so do the doctors and so does the world. So I guess it's maybe. How do you read that quote and how do you think of it in terms of the book?

[B]

That's exactly how I think of it in terms of the book. I mean, one of the things, if we can start at the end of what you just said is yes, we think of pregnancy as just affecting the pregnant person and possibly the child inside the pregnant person. And this is untrue. Pregnancy affects. Of course it does. You know, as any other aspect of family has broad effects on lots and lots of people. So yes, that is certainly part of it. In this one it is obvious the way in which her being pregnant at 77 is going to change the life of her boyfriend and the life of her children and the life of their children and per doctor and the community and politics in the world and all of those things. One of the things that I love about that quote is the verb endure. Yeah, right, yeah. That impossibility is not something that I think we tend to think that when. Well, so for starter, that we think of when the impossible was visited upon you. It was magic and it's a blessing, it's a Miracle. Frequently we're using those kind of words, miracle in particular, to talk about pregnancy and childbirth. And those are wonderful, wonderful things. And wonderful, wonderful things are the opposite of endure. So that's one of the things that I love about it, is this realization that this thing that has happened to you is going to be hard.

[A]

Right. Because you could say, we know it's impossible to climb Mount Everest. The question is, who can best confront it or who can best overcome it or something.

[B]

But.

[A]

But to endure it is so appropriate for this, because it is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're going to have to outlast it. You're going to have to survive it. And. And that's what. What someone who's 77 is. Is really facing it.

[B]

Yeah. That. That she's gonna have to live in it. That. That it isn't. That it isn't a thing to just get through to the other side, which is what Hilary Mantel is talking about, too. That it is. How are you gonna. How are you gonna live in this impossible thing? And then, because we're working backwards, there's also the beginning of that quote, the impossible, which is how I imagine most readers will go into this book thinking, oh, well, that can't happen. That's impossible. Yeah. But all sorts of things that we think are impossible happen anyway. The question is not why has this impossible thing happened, nor how has this impossible thing happened, so much as it's a possible thing has happened now. What. And that is why it's the epigraph. That's the idea that I want you to have going in.

[A]

There was also a sense that Pepper's different selves have to endure it. There's sort of the self that feels like, well, this is not right. This is not my time of life. It's not something I should have to go through. And there's also the self that is. You know, this is all in place before this happens to her. There's also the self that feels like, well, I'm old, but I'm not dead. I can do things. I'm still here. I have plenty to give. Like, why is everybody treating me, you know, like I'm infirm? And both of those selves have to endure aspects of this impossibility in a different way.

[B]

Yeah, right. Yes. And in fact, I. One of the things that Pepper and Moth come to realize over the course of this thing is that though there are many, many ways in which it is much, much harder to be pregnant and presumably parent that at 77 than at 27, there are other ways in which being older makes aspects of this experience easier than it. Than it would be for more traditionally aged, you know, would be parents.

[A]

Yeah, I've heard that distinction drawn. I may have even drawn it myself of parents who are like in their mid-30s versus parents who are in their early 20s. And sometimes from the vantage point of being in your 30s, it can seem like that people in their 20s are still. Sometimes they have a commitment to a social life or. I don't want to give up all of the chances I have to go out with friends, and that's a big sacrifice for them. And when you're in your mid-30s, it's a little more like, well, I've kind of done that. I'm kind of tired of it anyway. I'm kind of looking forward to being able to. To stay at home on a week night, you know, I don't have to. I don't have to scramble to make it to all of the different events and everything that I'm being invited to.

[B]

Well, in addition to all of the practical aspects of it, you know, she's 77, so she's more tired. She needs to take naps during the day. She can't. She's not going to be able to get on the floor and roll around with the child. But to not have to balance work and child care, which is impossible, to not have to balance, say, eating and paying rent without work, which is impossible, to not have to balance your own parents with aging parents, with raising a baby.

[A]

She's not in the sandwich.

[B]

She's not. Right. She's not in the sandwich. She is the sandwich. She's definitely the bread in this particular metaphor. Yes, for sure. And, you know, and there are lots of ways in which these are people with a lot of time on their hands. And. And there are ways in which obviously that makes it much harder, but there are other ways in which it makes it easier. And those ways are important to talk about, too.

[A]

Okay. The other epigraph is a quote from Maggie. Is it Kuhn?

[B]

I think it's Kuhn Kuhn.

[A]

Okay. Maggie Kuhn, K U H N founder of the Gray Panthers. She says, when you least expect it, someone may actually listen to what you have to say.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is. It's phrased with kind of tongue in cheek here with the. It's the. I sense a little irony there that the fear is that you're going to be at a point in your life where nobody cares what you have to say. And I can kind of feel this happening with my kids and their Cousins who are now, you know, in college, out of college, they're kind of taking over. We go out to dinner. And their generation is, you know, starting to drive the conversation. And, you know, the things they're about to do are kind of the more interesting things that are happening. And it feels like they're already kind of in charge and they're going to be even more in charge soon. And then there's that hope that, well, I'd like to think I have some wisdom or I have some things that are going to be valued at some point because I've done a lot of living and learned a lot of lessons and all of that. But you also feel like sometimes you just kind of sit back and listen because the. The six people who are all talking to one another are, you know, they've. They've got a lot of things they want to say.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And it is. It is one of these unfortunate ironies about, I guess, humanity that the more. The more you learn and the more experience you have and the more wisdom you accrue, the less and less valued it is, the less people are listening to you. At. At one point in the book because. Because this has stirred up such a storm of paparazzi, is out front of the building, press wanting to interview her, people wanting, protesters wanting to talk to her. And Pepper feels really bad because she's just moved into this community and now no one can go outside because they feel like they're going to be mobbed by this mob. And she's. She's feeling bad about this over dinner. And what her friends say is, no, you. You've worked a miracle, which turns out not to be the pregnancy, but you've made people pay attention to us the first time in years. And. And this is the other thing that happens. And I think it is a. It is. I don't want to say this. It's like baked into our culture almost that we start ignoring people because, oh, they. They don't get this. The latest, you know, install on their phone.

[A]

Right. That everybody over the age. I mean, I would say now it's. I can say 77, but I think other people say that it's like 50 or 60 or something. But. But that everybody above whatever people's threshold is, is suddenly Grandpa Simpson.

[B]

Yeah. Right. Yes. Yes. And. And to be. And to be ignored and not relevant. And that's unfortunate because that. I mean, it's unfortunate for so many reasons, but certainly one of them is that these are the people who. Who have all of this wisdom and and experience and perspective that you don't get when you're in the middle of it.

[A]

Right. So other writers who take us through this question of the passage of time and the aging process and. And shifting generations, can you think of any predecessors you might have turned to for inspiration?

[B]

Well, it is interesting that you ask that question because it is. Because it's a hard one, and it's harder than I think it is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And in fact, some of it is that I thought going in, like, oh, yes, I'll just. You know, I'll read other. Other books about. About old people, and. And none of them were. Were doing quite what I wanted to do, and it actually turns out to be really, really difficult and to think of books where the old people are actually old. So frequently, I feel like the books that are pitched to us as being about people who are old, those people are, like, 60, which is not old. I mean, some of what I found out while I was writing this book is 77 wasn't nearly as old as I thought it was. Going in. The deeper I got into the book, the less old 77 felt to me. But. But novels about really, really old people being old were fewer in number than I hoped they would be.

[A]

I was thinking, knowing you, I was thinking, well, I wonder if she picked up King Lear. But I don't know that that would have given you many specifics. But in terms of just the vibe and the. The feeling of kind of losing your grip but also still being relevant, I was thinking that there may have been a few passages in there that you would have enjoyed reading along the way.

[B]

Yes. So, yes, I did. I reread King Lear and sat and felt my feelings about that for a little while. And then. And this, I think, will not surprise you either. What really, I felt was the right answer was the Tempest more so than Lyre, Because Lear, of course, is losing his mind, and that's a different story. Whereas Prospero is very not losing his mind. And in fact, I think in that position where he feels like not only does he have a lot left to contribute, but he's not done raising his kid, and she's not done needing parenting either. And so for Prospero, this journey is very much one of he's got to lay down his staff, he's got to lay down the magic and figure out how to endure. And that was, for me, a much closer bit to this one than Lear was. I also. I went and reread A Christmas Carol for Scrooge. Yes. I also went and Deep dived Dickens a little bit because that, too, is. You know, and of course, first of all, that is impossible. That is ghost stories. And. Well, I suppose it depends on how you feel about ghost stories. I don't want to say it's impossible, but it is a much, much different story. But it also is the story of an old man who is trying to find a way. Who is nonetheless trying to find a way forward.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where the answer is not like, oh, you're done. It doesn't matter. You don't matter anymore. Chris Cowell is very much like, you have to figure this out before you die because your life's not over yet. And that's what I was trying to capture.

[A]

Right. And your decisions are still having this effect on all of the people close to you.

[B]

Right, Right. And that's. And. Right. And that's the point of A Christmas Carol is that. Is that it's not so much you as, look what you're doing to everybody else.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How you choose to live really matters.

[B]

Yeah. And how you choose to live this end of your life really matters. Like, it's the end, but it's not the last week. Right. It's just the last step. And I think that's not how A Christmas Carol is usually read, although it is, of course, the story that keeps on giving in this way. You know, it is. You know, that's why it's still useful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Story, I think, is that it's not. It's not just about, like, this mean guy who learns to be nice. It is the realization that even though you have been behaving this way for a long time, you still have. In this last section of life, it still matters who you are and how. How you interact with everybody else, because your life and their life are one.

[A]

And you're not suddenly limited to a narrow set of emotions like, oh, you're going to be. Maybe you'll spend part of your day tired, and you'll spend the other part of your day a little bit afraid or a little bit bored, but you can still feel love and joy and excitement and newness and. And all of these. All of these things that. That often we kind of don't attribute to people once they get above that threshold.

[B]

Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, one of the things that Pepper realizes early on is that nobody wants to think about the fact that she's clearly had sex if she is pregnant, that this is the stopping point for before we even get to being pregnant. Her children and I expect many readers. And what Proves to be the populace at large are really, really put off by the fact that she's having sex and she's very much like, but why? Why? And that is, I think, the answer to that question, I think, is both obvious and sort of ridiculous. When we dig down to it, like, essentially what we boil down to is we say, like, oh, old people are also people. Like, yeah, duh. And that's what I was. Look, we can do all night on King Lear. But that, I feel like, is what Lier doesn't quite get to that the Tempest does. For my money.

[A]

There's something else that I think you could take from Dickens, and you probably did, which is even though he's describing something that is fantastical and requires us to suspend some disbelief and everything in terms of the ghosts and all that, he tells it straight. You know, the narrative tone is one of, well, this is happening and it might surprise people, and it's natural that it would surprise people, but it's not. We don't have to change the way we're talking to the reader because the reader is going to buckle up and go along for the ride.

[B]

Right, right, right. Yes, exactly. And that's exactly why I went back to it is because he doesn't spend any time trying to explain to you, oh, there are ghosts. And I know you don't really believe

[A]

that there are ghosts, but he doesn't apologize.

[B]

And that, indeed, is what I wanted to do with this, is to go in with you saying, yep, this is true. Don't argue with me. I'm going to get there. I promise you, we'll do it. But come along for that. I've got you. Come along for this ride, and I've got you. Which is what I want, to be assured, frankly, on the first page of. Of all novels. It's like, I am going to get you from the beginning to the end of this book. Yeah, you are in good hands. And indeed, just that sense of, like, I'm not pulling punches. I'm not apologizing for this. I'm not going to explain it to you. Look at. That's what. Marley is dead to begin with. This is where he starts. That's the first thing he wants you to know. He was dead. That's it. To begin with. This is where we are. And you're like, oh, okay, I know that going in. That's. I mean, I think it's the thing to emulate. And it was something that I went back to. You know, it's a nice. It's a very short book. And you know, as far as novels go, especially as far as Dickens go. And so it, it was a thing that I, I kept going back and rereading because I was like, okay, yes, this is how you do it.

[A]

Well, the book is called Enormous Wings. Laurie Frankel, thank you so much for joining me again on the history of literature.

[B]

Jack, it is always my pleasure. Thank you so much for. Foreign.

[C]

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[B]

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[C]

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[B]

Ask your doctor about ebgliss and visit eglis.lily.com or call 1-800-lilyrx or 1-800-545-5979.

[A]

And finally today, Rodri Lewis was here back in episode 671 to discuss Shakespeare's tragic art. When it comes time for Mr. Lewis to enter the seventh age, will he turn to Shakespeare for his reading material? Let's find out. Okay, I'm joined now by Shakespearean expert Rodri Lewis, the author of Shakespeare's Tragic Art. Rodri, this question comes from a listener who asks, what do you want your last book to be? This will be the last book you will ever read. You can either choose one that exists or describe one that has not yet been written.

[D]

Oh, goodness me. Well, I suppose part of if I knew when I was going to die, you know, might be in 20 minutes when I go out to buy coffee and get hit by a bus, but hopefully not.

[A]

Well, what, what would it be if that were the case? What, you don't have time to read a book. What would have been the last book you would have ever read?

[D]

The last book I ever read in that case would be a book called the True Story of Nature by Jeremy Minot, which I written review of. But that's not the last book I want to read. It's a good book, but not, I mean, I'd say the book I really want to read right now, reread right now, because I haven't done so for about 10 years of Middlemarch, which

[A]

I

[D]

have in the back of my mind as my favorite English novel, and I've sort of forgotten why. And I want to go back and reread it as I think Eliot's sort of frankly, Shakespearean depth of characterization and extraordinary, mischievous plotting and sort of reflections on the novelist's art are something I would like to go back to. But that pre. Suppose a long death. I couldn't do that after being hit by a bus. I need to be in a hospital for a week or something.

[A]

Well, I have to say that I have talked to a lot of people about Middlemarch and a lot of people have reread the book and no one has been disappointed by the rereading of it. They all say that they get something more out of it, they get something new out of it. It seems to be a book that ages well along with us as we age.

[D]

Well, that's good to know. I mean, I'm probably going to have to wait until the Christmas vacation, but that will be a fun couple of days when I do.

[A]

Right. Okay. Good choice. Rodri Lewis, thank you so much for joining me on the History of Literature.

[D]

Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure.

[A]

Okay, there we go. That's going to do it for this episode of the History of Literature. My thanks to Rodri Lewis and to Laurie Frankel for joining me today. Mike and I are going to look at the list of 25 greatest books of all time soon. Oh, boy. And we'll be in the woodshed on that list. And we'll have some Robert Frost coming up and ETA Hoffman and our old friend Emilia Langyer. We'll examine what it means to have a world where the Northern Hemisphere insists on itself as the norm. I mean, that is our world. What has that done to the people who live elsewhere? How has that affected literature? So please do stay tuned for all of that. You can sign up for our free monthly [e-mail] Emma works very hard putting that together. She likes to have people who read it. And you can follow us on bluesky and Instagram and other social media sites. I'm Jack Wilson. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.

[B]

Sam.