784 Marcus Aurelius: Philosopher-King (with William O. Stephens)

Summary

The History of Literature: Marcus Aurelius - Philosopher-King

Episode 784 | Hosted by Jacke Wilson | Guest: William O. Stephens
Date: March 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the extraordinary life and enduring legacy of Marcus Aurelius, the Roman emperor and Stoic philosopher long regarded as the archetype of Plato’s philosopher-king. Jacke Wilson welcomes esteemed Stoicism scholar William O. Stephens to discuss Marcus’s upbringing, philosophical evolution, the unique blending of ruler and thinker, and why his Meditations ("Memoranda," as Stephens prefers) offer wisdom still relevant in uncertain times.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Plato’s Philosopher-King and Marcus Aurelius as Realization

• Plato’s Ideal (01:03–09:50): The episode opens with an analysis of Plato’s Republic and the concept of philosopher-kings—rulers chosen by merit, virtue, and knowledge rather than inheritance or popular vote.
  • Plato was wary of democracy's flaws—anarchy, demagogues, and tyranny—and believed in leaders chosen through extensive training in virtue and wisdom.
  • “If ruling a state is a craft, indeed statecraft, Plato argues, then politics needs expert rulers.” (06:10, attribution: host, paraphrased quote from Plato via the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
• Relating to Marcus: Marcus Aurelius is introduced as a rare historical real-life embodiment of this ideal.

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2. Biography: Early Life and Road to Power

• Family and Upbringing (15:14–18:48): Marcus was born in 121 CE to a noble family, orphaned young, and then adopted by Emperor Antoninus Pius at the arrangement of Hadrian for succession stability.
  • Marcus was chosen for his seriousness, austerity, and studious temperament, in contrast to his adoptive brother Lucius Verus’s indulgent nature.
  • Notable childhood anecdotes: preferred philosophy and sleeping on the floor; mother insisted on a compromise: “he would sleep on an army cot.” (21:13)
  • Hadrian’s nickname for Marcus: Verissimus – "most true." (23:08)
• Succession Politics (17:00–18:37): Adoption and grooming for leadership were strategic for continuity, allowing Hadrian to handpick successors for political stability.

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3. Intellectual Context and Marcus’s Affinity for Stoicism

• Stoicism in Ancient Rome (24:54–26:45): Stoicism, Epicureanism, and Skepticism were the dominant philosophical schools in Roman intellectual life.
  • Marcus’s devotion to philosophy—and especially Stoicism—was unusual among noble Romans expected to focus on military and political pursuits.
• What Made Marcus a Philosopher? (27:13–31:10):
  • Stephens: “Marcus kept basically a kind of private journal, a series of notes that it appears he wrote only for his own benefit... It’s really kind of a very good fortune of history that we have it.” (27:31)
  • The Meditations are better called "memoranda"—reminders and self-exhortations, not intended for publication.
  • Marcus’s writings are not systematic treatises but personal engagements with Stoic principles.

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4. Nature and Content of the Memoranda/Meditations

• Structure and Tone (34:17–38:23): Contrary to a personal diary, Marcus’s writings are devoid of daily details or court intrigue. Instead, they embody philosophical rehearsals and reminders aimed at self-mastery.
  • Occasional personal admissions: struggling with temper, recurring illnesses, and acceptance of human frailty.
  • “He does have a few very elusive references to people... but we don’t even know what he’s referring to in several of these.” (35:04)
• Stoic Ethics and Daily Practice (38:23–40:42):
  • Stoic ethics focus on how to live well by mastering negative emotions and regarding virtue as the sole good.
  • “Philosophy was conceived as a way of life, a way of living.” (38:46)

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5. Austerity and Virtue in Leadership

• Marcus’s Austerity (41:00–42:21): Embraced discomfort and poetic simplicity as a form of self-sufficiency and virtue.
  • “Pleasure is not what makes a life good. The only thing that’s truly good that guarantees happiness is virtue.” (41:00)
• Contrast with Other Emperors: His approach stood out amidst a tradition of decadence; Antoninus Pius (his adoptive father) was a rare exception who also shunned luxury.
  • “Absolute power corrupts absolutely... but Antoninus Pius was very much an exception.” (42:56)

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6. Rule and Responsibility: From Philosophy to Practice

• Becoming Emperor (45:13–48:39): On Antoninus Pius’s death, Marcus insisted on co-rulership with Lucius Verus—a first in Roman history—demonstrating lack of lust for power and focus on duty.

  • “This is an indication that Marcus did not have a lust to rule.” (45:13)
  • Sought to improve Lucius Verus’s character via shared responsibility.

• Military Turmoil: Unlike his peaceful predecessor, Marcus faced successive wars (Parthian War, plagues, and Danubian campaigns)—challenges that tested his Stoic resolve.

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7. Spiritual and Historical Legacy

• Christian Admiration (51:17–55:36):
  • Later Christian thinkers viewed Marcus as a pagan "saint" due to his emphasis on virtue, providence, duty, and rejection of pleasures of the flesh.
  • “This stoic perspective really impressed Christian thinkers, and Marcus’s sincerity... led them to sanctify him ... as if he were a kind of pagan saint.” (55:27)

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8. Lessons for Modern Times and Enduring Appeal

• Advice for Today’s Leaders (55:36–59:42):
  • Stephens sees Marcus’s memoranda as a profound source of personal stability, useful even for today's leaders and ordinary people overwhelmed by modern chaos.
  • “Our own minds can be a place that we can withdraw to and experience peace and equanimity. This is what's up to us, according to Stoicism.” (59:42, Stephens)
• Practical Stoicism:
  • Journaling and daily rehearsal of Stoic principles help cultivate inner strength against uncertainty, paralleling our own age of information overload.
  • “Many stoic thinkers these days encourage people to journal themselves in a way like Marcus did, keep their own personal journal…” (55:58)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Plato’s Philosopher-King:
  • “Oh, so the philosopher thinks that the philosophers should be... put in charge of everything. No doubt the plumber thinks the world would run better with plumber kings...” – Jacke Wilson (01:51)
• On Marcus’s Self-Perception:
  • “When you read the memoranda, you’ll read that he does not even consider himself to be a philosopher... Instead he’s trying to live the philosophy he’s learned from his teachers.” – William O. Stephens (61:51)
• On the Value of Stoic Practice:
  • “The inner citadel... Our own minds can be a place that we can withdraw to and experience peace and equanimity.” – William O. Stephens (59:42)
• On Leadership and Virtue:
  • “...it was unusual for someone who was going to become politically very, very powerful to have a particular affinity for any kind of philosophy.” – William O. Stephens (25:22)
  • “This is pretty impressive from the point of view of the Roman people and the Senate. This had to have been impressive for him to start his reign this way.” – William O. Stephens (48:39)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Plato’s Philosopher-King Context and Critique: 01:03–09:52
• Marcus’s Upbringing and Early Traits: 15:14–23:09
• Roman Stoicism and Marcus’s Education: 24:54–27:13
• The Nature of the Memoranda/Meditations: 27:13–35:04
• Stoic Ethics and Philosophy as Daily Practice: 38:23–41:00
• Ascetic Lifestyle and Virtue: 41:00–42:56
• Marcus's Approach to Rule & Reforms: 45:13–48:39
• Plagues, War, and the Challenge of Fate: 51:27–55:36
• Modern Applications and Stoic Refuge: 55:36–61:36
• Assessment of Marcus as Philosopher-King: 61:51–65:50

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Closing Reflection

The episode reveals Marcus Aurelius as a singular figure in history—a true philosopher-king whose inward pursuit of virtue stood the test of absolute power and historical tumult. As William O. Stephens argues, Marcus’s writings offer not only ancient wisdom but a practical guide for anyone seeking equanimity and integrity in chaotic times.

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Guest book references:

• Marcus Aurelius: A Guide for the Perplexed (2012)
• Marcus Aurelius: Philosopher King (Reaction Books, 2026)

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For those interested in exploring Stoicism or looking for a model of ethical leadership, Marcus’s memoranda—and this conversation—provide both inspiration and practical direction.

Transcript

[Jack Wilson]

The History of Literature podcast is a member of the podglomerate Network and Lit Hub Radio.

[William O. Stevens]

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[Jack Wilson]

Hello.

[Interviewer/Host]

In the 4th century BC, Plato wrote

[Jack Wilson]

the Republic, in which he famously posited an ideal form of government ruled not by democratically elected leaders, but by philosopher kings. Five hundred years later, the Romans were ruled by such a figure. By day, he oversaw an empire, and at night, he recorded his thoughts.

[Interviewer/Host]

What should we make of the Stoic philosopher slash emperor? Marcus Aurelius, an expert in Stoic philosophy

[Jack Wilson]

and in the life of Marcus Aurelius, William O. Stevens will help us answer that question today on the History of Literature. Okay, here we go.

[Interviewer/Host]

Welcome to the podcast.

[Jack Wilson]

I'm Jack Wilson. Why did Plato want a philosopher king to be the ruler of his ideal society? I snickered at that. I'm a good snickerer when I want to be. I think I literally laughed out loud when I read that the first time that I encountered Plato's Republic. Oh, so the philosopher thinks that the philosophers should be. Should be made philosopher kings and be put in charge of everything. No doubt the plumber thinks the world would run better with plumber kings in charge. And so on. But of course, my snickers were misplaced. They were unfounded snickers. I owe Plato an apology. His view of the proper form of government was more than just put me in coach. Note the comma there. That's important. Put me in comma, coach. Side note, Plato would probably not have wanted to be put in coach with no comma. He was first class all the way, if anyone ever was. Okay, just what arguments did Plato make for his philosopher king? How did he himself arrive at that conclusion? Well, this is from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy I found this very helpful. It is generally believed today that democracy, government of the people, by the people and for the people, is the best and only fully justifiable political system. The distinct features of democracy are freedom and equality. Democracy can be described as the rule of the free people who govern themselves either directly or through their representatives, in their own interest. Why does Plato not consider democracy the best form of government in the republic? He criticizes the direct and unchecked democracy of his time precisely because of its leading features. Firstly, although freedom is for Plato a true value, democracy involves the danger of excessive freedom of doing as one likes, which leads to anarchy. Secondly, equality, related to the belief that everyone has the right, an equal capacity to rule, brings to politics all kinds of power seeking individuals motivated by personal gain rather than public good. Democracy is thus highly corruptible. It opens gates to demagogues, potential dictators, and can thus lead to tyranny. Hence, although it may not be applicable to modern liberal democracies, Plato's main charge against the democracy he knows from the ancient Greek political practice and is that it is unstable, leading from anarchy to tyranny, and that it lacks leaders with proper skill and morals. Democracy depends on chance and must be mixed with competent leadership. Without able and virtuous leaders such as Solon or Pericles, who come and go by chance, it is not a good form of government. But even Pericles, who, as Socrates says, made people wilder rather than more virtuous, is considered not to be the best leader. If ruling a state is a craft, indeed statecraft, Plato argues, then politics needs expert rulers and they cannot come to it merely by accident, but must be carefully selected and prepared in the course of extensive training. Making political decisions requires good judgment. Politics needs competence, at least in the form of today's civil servants. Who then should the experts be and why? Why does Plato and the Republic decide to hand the steering wheel of the state to philosophers? End quote. Before we hear the answer to that question, let's talk a little bit about democracy. You can see where Plato is headed, what he's thinking, we immediately think. When we hear that he's selecting a type of person to be leader, we think, well, okay, but who gets to pick? In democracy, with one person, one vote, that's a little bit better, right? More egalitarian.

[Interviewer/Host]

Everyone gets a say.

[Jack Wilson]

Otherwise it will go to the strong or the well connected, or some other unfair category of person. It will matter who you were when you were born, rather than who you became through merit.

[Interviewer/Host]

But what if that system is not producing the best people?

[Jack Wilson]

To run the place? What if it's overloaded the system? What if the system is overloaded by money and propaganda and ignorance? What if you have evidence that democracy is leading to mob rule or chaos, or putting in charge a person who lies without shame? What if that ruler is supported by an entire political class that is similarly greedy or craven or unlawful? And we know in our hearts that this can happen. So if we're dreaming up an ideal government, would we really want to leave it to something as arbitrary as a vote? Shouldn't we design a system that gives us better people? So here's the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy again on who Plato wants to elevate to this position.

[Interviewer/Host]

To be sure, Plato's philosophers, among whom

[Jack Wilson]

he includes both men and women, are not those who can usually be found today in departments of philosophy and who are described as the prisoners who take refuge in a temple. Initially chosen from among the brightest, most stable and most courageous children, they go through a sophisticated and prolonged educational training, which begins with gymnastics, music and mathematics, and ends with dialectic, military service, and practical city management. They have superior theoretical knowledge, including the knowledge of the just, noble, good and advantageous, but are not inferior to others in practical matters as well. Being in the final stage of their education, illuminated by the idea of the good, they are those who can see beyond changing empirical phenomena and reflect on such timeless values as justice, beauty, truth and moderation. Goodness is not merely a theoretical idea for them, but the ultimate state of their mind. If the life of the philosopher rulers is not of private property, family or wealth, nor even of honor, and if the intellectual life itself seems so attractive, why should they then agree to rule? Plato's answer is, in a sense, a negative one. Philosophical life based on contemplative leisure and the pleasure of learning is indeed better and happier than that of ruling the state. However, the underlying idea is not to make any social class in the city the victorious one and make it thus happy, but to spread happiness throughout the city by bringing the citizens into harmony with each other, and by making them share with each other the benefits that each class can confer on the community. Plato assumes that a city in which the rulers do not govern out of desire for private gain, but are least motivated by personal ambition, is governed in the way which is the finest and freest from civil strife. Philosophers will rule not only because they will be best prepared for this, but also because if they do not, the city will no longer be well governed. It may fall prey to economic decline, factionalism, and civil war. They will approach ruling not as something really enjoyable, but as something necessary. End quote. Very intriguing.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's easy to dismiss Plato's ideas when

[Jack Wilson]

you like your leadership, when you feel like you and your fellow citizens have chosen the right people to be in charge. But democracy is messy and it sometimes spits out awful results. Would be tyrants, hopeless incompetence, or combinations of both. Plato says, here's another way. And yes, maybe what I'm suggesting is more along the lines of a king or an emperor. But look at what a decent ruler can do. Chosen for the right reasons, trained in the right way, possessed of the right attitudes. Think about it. That might be ideal. And for many looking back over the centuries and millennia, they say, has this ever even been tried? Well, maybe. Maybe it was. Marcus Aurelius is a figure that seems to have a lot of these features that Plato was talking about. What qualities did he have? How did he get started? And how did it all go for him? Did his philosophizing, his reading, his thinking, his intellectualism, did that help or hinder William O. Stevens will tell us after. Oh wait, got a quick note, quick note. You will hear in the interview that William at one point grasps for a word and comes up with Praetorian. As soon as the interview ended, he emailed to say, ah, that was a mistake. The word I was looking for in my mind was patrician. So keep that in mind as you listen. Dear listeners, let's take a quick break and come back with our look at Marcus Aurelius after this. Hey folks, Starting up this podcast was not easy. So many questions and decisions and soon I'll be launching a new press selling new books, so I'm glad to have a partner on my side to help. I'll be using Shopify. You might want to give them a try too. Shopify provides inventory and payments and analytics tools so you'll get everything you need in one place. They have hundreds of ready to use templates to help you get started with an online store that matches your brand's style. And they have millions of businesses already under their belt, including exciting new brands like Magic Spoon and Momofuku and well established companies like Heinz and Mattel. And soon, the history of literature. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com literature go to shopify.com literature that's shopify.com literature.

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[Interviewer/Host]

okay. Joining me now is William O. Stevens, who is professor emeritus of philosophy at Creighton University. William is an expert in the ethics of stoicism, and in 2012 he published

[Jack Wilson]

Marcus Aurelius, A Guide for the Perplexed.

[Interviewer/Host]

He's here today to discuss his new

[Jack Wilson]

book, Marcus Aurelius, Philosopher King, published by Reaction Books. William Stevens, welcome to the history of literature.

[William O. Stevens]

Thank you, Jack. Thanks very much.

[Interviewer/Host]

So in an introductory note, where you're talking about sources, you write from these sources. A compelling story of the ancient life of the Stoic emperor can be reconstructed.

[Jack Wilson]

Details of that story are often absent,

[Interviewer/Host]

incomplete or uncertain, but its contours remain vivid enough to show why attention to

[Jack Wilson]

this man's life does not wane.

[Interviewer/Host]

So I thought that was a good way to kind of kick off what we're going to be talking about here.

[Jack Wilson]

We don't have all the details, but

[Interviewer/Host]

we've got some contours. And it's fascinating to me that this

[Jack Wilson]

person still holds our attention.

[Interviewer/Host]

So I want to ask you about that and what you think, why you

[Jack Wilson]

think he appeals to our era in particular.

[Interviewer/Host]

But let's save that and just get

[Jack Wilson]

some of the biography on the table first.

[Interviewer/Host]

Who was Marcus Aurelius, when was he born, and what kind of background and

[Jack Wilson]

childhood did he have?

[William O. Stevens]

So Marcus was born in 121 AD, or CE, as some classes refer to the common era, and he was born into a noble family, but his father died when he was a young boy sometime, we don't know exactly when, but he might have been in the single digits age wise, or maybe around 12 or 13. But in any cases, his biological father died when he was quite young, and then he was raised by his grandfather primarily. And so, given his noble genealogy and family reputation, what happened was Hadrian was Emperor at the time, and when Marcus was growing up and Hadrian did not have any sons, and as he aged and was dealing with health problems as he was getting older, he was very concerned to figure out how the succession would work after he died. And so he hand picked his successor and he handpicked a man named Antoninus Pius, who was another nobleman. And what Hadrian did was he arranged for Antoninus Pius to adopt both the young Marcus Aurelius and another young boy who was related to another wealthy family, Lucius Verus. So he had Antoninus Pius adopt Marcus and Lucius Verus. So basically what Hadrian was doing was not only lining up his immediate successor, Antoninus Pius, but also in having him adopt Marcus and Lucius, he was setting up the next succession after Antoninus Pius died.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is he doing that for stability or. Or was that a way of keeping Pius in line?

[William O. Stevens]

Right, well, well, I mean, that's an interesting question. I mean, certainly for the sake of stability. Right, so the, the normal way that succession would work from one Roman emperor to the next was for it to be hereditary. So ordinarily, if an Emperor had a son, then that son would become the next emperor when he died. But it was the case that for several generations, for a couple emperors, even before Hadrian, there were no male offspring of the city emperor. And so it had to be done through adoption. And that was good in a way, because that meant that the Emperor could really hand pick among eligible successors who he wanted. And that's exactly what Hadrian did. And so the dutifulness, the intelligence, the savvy of Antoninus Pius impressed him. He was impressed with Antoninus Pius, but he also wanted to make sure that Antoninus Pius successor was sat. And he was very much a controlling kind of guy, Hadrian, and that's why he insisted he arranged for Pius to adopt Marcus and his stepbrother, Lucius Verus. And so from a very early age, it must have been the case that Marcus, and perhaps to a lesser extent, Lucius, impressed Hadrian.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

So what do we know about why Marcus was one of the ones chosen? What had he done at that point or what character aspects had he exhibited?

[William O. Stevens]

Right, well, so again, since his father died when he was quite young, Marcus didn't have the benefit of having his own biological father alive while he was growing up through adolescence, and young adulthood. And so he needed a mentor, he needed a guide to help oversee his upbringing and his education. And so with Hadrian arranging for Antinous Pius to adopt him, that allowed Marcus then to be effectively groomed to eventually become the emperor. So how did Marcus distinguish himself? He was still a young guy, but he was a very serious fellow from an early age, according to our sources, as far as we know. So he was not a frivolous guy. He was not interested in kind of the ordinary amusements of well off young noblemen. He wasn't particularly excited by hunting. He didn't get into the gladiatorial games or the chariot races. Right, the basic, the sports of the day effectively. And these things were very interesting to his stepbrother, Lucius Verus. Lucius was very much distracted by these things as he was growing up. But Marcus was very studious from an early age. He liked to read, he liked to study. And so from an early age he had a natural affinity not just to literature in general, but specifically to philosophy. His mentors taught him philosophy from an early age, in addition to rhetoric and letters and literature and all the other subjects that young well off noblemen would have learned.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right, now, the way you've been describing him, he sounds like almost somebody who is destined to be a kind of ideal leader and almost like a selfless administrator, bureaucrat even. But as we know, that's not always who is the most popular with the public. Did the public have a conception of Marcus? Did he have a reputation among them? Did they appreciate these qualities of his modesty and dignity and that kind of thing? Or was that a struggle to kind of say, well, he's not our favorite,

[Jack Wilson]

we like the guy who's more fun, right?

[William O. Stevens]

So unfortunately, our historical record, the sources that we have, do not have information about what Marcus's reputation was broadly in the public prior to him becoming emperor. So the traits that he has are reported by the author of the Historia Augusta. And that's where, you know, we get the information about his studiousness and his seriousness. A couple other stories about him include that when he was a young boy, he was very impressed with the very austere style of living of philosophers, as opposed to indulging in pleasures and thick beds, you know, thick soft beds to sleep on. Marcus preferred to sleep on the floor, on an animal hide, right on some furs. And his mother thought he really was overdoing it and she was concerned that he was being too austere and too serious at an early age. So she insisted that he sleep in a proper bed. I don't know if she was concerned about his health or what. Marcus did struggle with different health problems throughout his life, but the compromise that Marcus and his mother struck was that he would sleep on an army cot. So still very austere. Not a proper bed at all, but just an army cot. And another facet of his seriousness as a young boy was his family name was Verus Annius Verus V E R U S, which means true in Latin. And Hadrian was so impressed by the seriousness and the studiousness and the austerity of this young boy reading and studying philosophy from an early age that he gave Marcus the nickname Verisimus, which means truest or most true.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[William O. Stevens]

So unfortunately, we don't know what. To answer your question, we don't know what the public thought about the young Marcus. It wasn't until he became emperor that. That the biographers who lived quite some time after him, related stories that they had heard about his relationship with the public.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right now, some people who are like me and who need reminding of the emperors and where things are in ancient Rome, this is past the age of the kind of crazy emperors I think of them as. And this is. This is an age of relative peace and calm and stability. Right. This is the Pax Romana age.

[William O. Stevens]

Yes, that's right. During the reign of his adoptive father, Antoninus Pius. Yes, this is the Pax Romana. So Marcus was the last of the five good emperors, as historians have referred to them. So this would be Nerva, then Trajan, Hadrian, who we've talked about, Antoninus Pius, who we've talked about, who was Marcus's adoptive father, and then Marcus himself. And the interesting thing about Marcus being the fifth and last of the good emperors, so called by historians, is that, again, Marcus's interests seem to have been, as I said, really much more academic. He liked study, he liked reading, he liked studying philosophy, and he was trained in rhetoric and oratory. But it really didn't win his heart. It's philosophy that won his heart, and specifically Stoicism. So that when maybe I'm jumping ahead here, I was about to tell you how Marcus came to ascend the throne.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, let me ask a question about Stoicism, and that is, was it widespread in Rome at that time? Were there a lot of people who were talking about it and practicing it, or was he reaching back into the past and into a Greek past and sort of rediscovering it? And was this kind of a stretch or was this part of the general Curriculum or the general zeitgeist that people could be Stoics.

[William O. Stevens]

Yeah, it's the former. So during this period in Roman history, Stoicism was live and going concern in Rome at the time, and as was Epicureanism. And the third major philosophical school of the time, following going back to the Hellenistic period in Greece, was skepticism. So Stoicism, Epicureanism and skepticism were philosophies that had been taught and practiced by philosophers for several centuries by the time Marcus was getting his education. So this was fairly common. What wasn't common was that a nobleman like Marcus would be particularly drawn to becoming a philosopher of any kind, because these sorts of senators and powerful political men, they would be drawn to politics. And the preparation in politics took a course through the military. Right. So they would have military training and that sort of thing. So it was unusual for someone who was going to become politically very, very powerful to have a particular affinity for any kind of philosophy. And the philosophy which really inspired Marcus was of course, Stoicism.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right. Now, when we say that he was, I mean, we credit him as being a Stoic philosopher, does that mean he was advancing Stoicism and exploring new aspects of it or writing about it in a way that hadn't been written about before? Or is he just that he was such a high profile practitioner of Stoicism that we're willing to give him the title of philosopher?

[William O. Stevens]

It's a good question. And the answer is a little bit of both. A little bit of both. So some scholars have read Marcus's philosophical writings, which are traditionally known as the Meditations. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

And you call them the memoranda.

[William O. Stevens]

I'm out on a limb on this because the vast majority of scholars follow a tradition. But the reason that I call them that is because. Well, first of all, what were they? So Marcus kept basically a kind of private journal, a series of notes that it appears he wrote only for his own benefit. We don't have any historical evidence that suggests that Marcus ever really intended these writings of his to be published and to be disseminated widely. In fact, he might not have intended anyone else to read these series of notes in this kind of private journal that he wrote. So it's really kind of a very good fortune of history that we have it that they were preserved, that when he died, they were copied over and over and over again for centuries. And they survived what many ancient texts did not survive to be received hundreds of years later and even millennia later. So that's what these memoranda are. Why do I Call them that. Well, one of the things that Marcus does, the pervading theme throughout his notes, is Marcus reminding himself of the doctrines that he learned from his Stoic teachers. He's constantly saying, remember, blah, blah, blah, or bear in mind so and so, so and so, or don't forget that xyz. And he does this over and over again through the 12 books of the Memoranda. And another reason why I call them that is because he was a Roman. And even though he wrote these notes in Greek, which was typical since Greek was the language of philosophy even in Rome, right. Having been written in by Plato and Aristotle and the Presocratics and so forth centuries before, Greece was still the elite language or the upper class language with the technical terms and jargon that the Greek philosophers used. And so the Romans had to learn, that is, the literate Romans had to learn Greek and be able to read it and write it. And so Marcus did. And so it's not surprising that he wrote in Greek. But since Marcus himself was a Roman, I think memoranda is also apt in that it's a Latin word. Right. Things to be remembered. So these are a couple of reasons why I prefer to refer to his writings with that name, that title. Another is that Marcus never himself gave any title to his notes. No title at all. It was only centuries later that again, editors who collected Marcus's writings, they decided to put different titles on them because they had no title at all and you have to be able to refer to them. And so the title that stuck for many centuries was Meditations, but it's not Marcus's title. So I figure if Marcus never called them that, I don't have to call them that either. I'm going to call them the Memoranda. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

And Meditations. It also, I think you mentioned in your book that it does kind of conjure up an idea of spiritual practice that you might see, for example, in, in Indian philosophy or something, as if these are things that are being set down as a guidebook for how to improve your mental state or something along those lines. And instead it's almost more like exhortations.

[William O. Stevens]

Exactly. So it is introspective, but it's not. Marcus in these writings is not doing anything like Transcendental Meditation as we understand it at all. That's not what he's doing. He's rehearsing philosophical doctrines and arguments. And then this gets back to the other point about the extent to which he originated. Marcus does have some original arguments, so far as we can tell, that we are not aware of in other sources. That said, he doesn't have a lot of them. What he does is he rehearses stoic doctrines that had been promulgated by earlier Greek Stoics, and he kind of recasts them. He reformulates the ideas in ways that are useful to him and his own kind of therapeutic practice. And so that's what his memoranda are. They're really stoic therapy for himself. They're different mental exercises, arguments, thinking out the consequences of stoic doctrines and applying them to his daily experience. So he's practicing this kind of therapeutic exercise in order to rid himself of negative emotions, anger and fear, and focus on doing the right thing, affirming what's true and fulfilling his duty. Right.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, let's take a quick break. We'll come back with more from William Stevens. And I want to ask kind of how this worked as a practical matter.

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[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, we're back. So, William, we've talked about Marcus Aurelius and he becomes this emperor, maybe this philosopher king. I'm curious as to how, how detailed the memoranda are about what he was

[Jack Wilson]

facing at the time. Does he give us a blow by

[Interviewer/Host]

blow of so and so walked in the room and I knew that he was trying to get me to authorize

[Jack Wilson]

the war, but here's how I dealt

[Interviewer/Host]

with the pressure of having to face the Senate. Or is it like that? Or is it really abstract? And he's just talking about every day searching for tranquility, searching for being at peace with oneself. Is it generic in that sense?

[William O. Stevens]

Yeah, sadly, there's nothing of the day to day experience, interactions with people. Anything at that kind of fine grained level is completely absent from the memoranda. And as a historian, as someone writing a biography of him, this is very frustrating.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, right.

[William O. Stevens]

Because we would love to have that. Right, right. We would love to have Marcus's reflections on personal experiences that he had being recorded from, you know, as he's thinking and reflecting on them in this particular writings now. So we don't have that at all in the memoranda. But it's not all that surprising because he did exchange letters with his mentor and teacher who taught him Roman rhetoric. And so he. His name is Cornelius Fronto. So we have dozens of letters that Marcus wrote to his teacher and mentor, Cornelius Fronto, in which Marcus does talk about his daily life and his concerns about his mother and her health. And one of the themes in these letters that Fronto and Marcus exchanged is complaints about health and bad health over and over and over again. All of that kind of personal, detailed information and relationships with specific people. It's absent from the memoranda. What we have there instead are, as I said, Marcus's ideas and reflections on his philosophical ideas, on ideas in Stoic physics and logic and argumentation, and primarily ethics, above all else, ethics, and how he applies those Stoic ideas to a distinctly Stoic perspective on the entire cosmos. How he should look at all events, how he should respond to changing circumstances in the seasons and with plants and animals, herds and armies. Right. So these are really philosophical lessons that Marcus is rehearsing and repeating over and over again. He does have a few very elusive references to people. There are only a couple in the memoranda to events happening, but we don't even know what he's referring to in several of these. So they're just utterly mysterious in that respect. It's not like a personal diary at all. He will occasionally refer to his own temper and how he needs to overcome his short temper. That's something that he struggles with and admits to. He also expresses a disgust, often for the human body and how he's tired of the aches and pains and ailments that he suffered from over the years. He suffered from insomnia, for example, and respiratory issues and that sort of thing. But there's really not a lot of emotional details of the kind that you would expect in an ordinary diary. In that respect, it's not really much of a diary at all. Instead, it's more of a strange sort of philosophical treatise.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right. Now, we don't often think of Stoicism in connection with ethics. I think we tend to think of Stoicism today as almost like a. A form of self help that you have to concern yourself with things that you can control and don't let your emotions get the better of you and that kind of thing. Where does ethics come into it?

[William O. Stevens]

Well, that is ethics, right? In ancient philosophy, ethics is the study of the good life. How do you live a good life? What does a good life look like in detail, concretely? What ideas help you understand what it is to live well? And Stoicism and Epicureanism and even skepticism were living philosophies in that sense, right? So in the ancient world, in ancient Rome, philosophy was conceived as a way of life, a way of living. It was not just an armchair academic reflection where you knock ideas around in your head, but it has no application to what you do when you get up and walk out the door. Rather, it was entirely about how you use your mind to guide yourself in all of your interactions, in all of your relationships with your family members and your friends, how to conduct yourself if you held public office, how to deal with death and disappointment, and how to get rid of what the Stoics regarded as impediments to a good life, namely, the negative emotions of anger and fear and lust and greed. Right? These were the negative emotions that in Stoic ethics, they advance arguments to vanquish. How do you overcome anger? How do you recognize the death? What is the nature of death? And why is death not to be feared, as the Stoics argued? Marcus repeats a number of these arguments to try to keep his head on straight despite all the turmoil that he had to deal with as emperor in the empire around him.

[Interviewer/Host]

So when the young Marcus Aurelius was lying on the floor instead of in a. A luxurious bed, what was his motivation for that? Was he thinking, the more I can learn to live without, the better it will be for me in facing future

[William O. Stevens]

disappointments, actually, just to sort of toughen himself up. Motivated by the belief that pleasure is not a good and pain is not an evil. This is a fundamental Stoic tenet that pleasure is not what makes a life good. The only thing that's truly good that guarantees happiness is virtue. And for the Stoics, the only thing that guarantees a miserable life is vice. And so for that reason, Stoics emphatically reject hedonism. Hedonism is the philosophy that pleasure is the good, that the way to have a good life is, is to maximize the right kind of pleasures and avoid the specific kinds of pains that detract from enjoying your life. This is the philosophy of Epicureanism. And so the Stoics and the Epicureans were fundamentally opposed to each other on this issue. So for Marcus, the reason to embrace austerity is precisely that that kind of self sufficiency, conditioning the body to be uncomfortable and not to need and rely on pleasures, allows him to master pleasure instead of being mastered by pleasure.

[Interviewer/Host]

So what did people make of this emperor who came in with that philosophy? I mean, had there been any precedents of emperors who were willing to forego some of the trappings or who were uncomfortable with some of the, the pleasures of that came along with being emperor? Or, or was this a new thing for them to say, geez, this guy, we're used to seeing these people live like, live like gods and here's a guy who's, who's going in the opposite direction, right?

[William O. Stevens]

So the general pattern was absolute power corrupts absolutely. And so we had a number of really terrible emperors with. There were problems with Tiberius too, but certainly Caligula and Nero are singled out as being particularly nasty. But Domitian himself. Closer to Marcus's time, Domitian banished the philosophers from Rome a couple times because they were being outspoken and criticizing things that Emperor Domitian was doing, including indulgence, Right. Corruption and that sort of thing. So the much more common pattern was indeed for these extremely powerful emperors to have the best of everything, to build these lavish villas and these palaces, and have the finest clothes, food and possessions imaginable. Right? Antoninus Pius, Marcus's adoptive father, was very much an exception. And so Marcus expresses tremendous admiration for his adoptive father, Antoninus Pius, because Marcus at least reports that Pius was not into the pomp and circumstance and the frumpery. He did not believe in wearing fancy, expensive clothes. He did not move around with an entourage with a huge entourage of servants waiting on him hand and foot. He eschewed those trappings that other emperors had availed themselves of, and Marcus very much admired that in him. And it says that explicitly singing the praises of his adoptive father, Antoninus Pius. And so I think that's certainly part of what motivated Marcus to choose this austere life of the philosophers who reject pleasure, believing that it is not a good, that it does not improve your mind to be beholden to pleasure, to be vulnerable to temptation and pleasures of the flesh. That's why he embraced the austerity. And Stoicism was precisely the philosophy that articulates that commitment. And one reason why he was drawn to it.

[Interviewer/Host]

Would we say that he was a successful emperor? And can we attribute any of his successes or failures to Stoicism?

[William O. Stevens]

Yes. Well, so one interesting thing that anyone who reads Plato's Republic learns is that according to Plato, in the Republic, his dramatic character Socrates, explains that in Kallipolis, in this ideal republic, which we're imagining, right, it doesn't exist on earth, but this is an ideal kind of conception in this place. The philosophers are real philosophers. And by that what I mean is a philosopher literally is a lover of wisdom. And so they're drawn to wisdom. What they want to gain for themselves is understanding, a theoretical understanding of how the world is and what's true, good and beautiful. Right. And so since philosophers want to do philosophy, they do not want to rule. They do not want to be kings and queens and emperors. They want to do philosophy and pursue the truth using their faculty of reason. And so when Antoninus Pius died, the Senate approached Marcus and asked him to be Emperor, of course, because he was set up to be the successor to Antoninus Pius. And Marcus's response was, I will do it on only one condition. That my adoptive brother, Lucius Varus be co emperor with me. And this. This really surprised the Senate. The Roman Senate, because it had never been done before in the history of the Principate, there had never been co emperors. There had only been one man in charge at the top of the pyramid. Right. And so this is an indication that Marcus did not have a lust to rule. He did not want the power. He recognized his duty and his responsibility to Rome, and that's why he did not reject the Senate's request that he be emperor. But since he didn't want to wield power all by himself, he insisted that his brother, Lucius Verus be co emperor with him and share the responsibilities. And he did this not because he didn't have the abilities to do it by himself. Rather, as I argue in the book, it seems clear, given our sources, or it seems fairly clear, at least, that he did it to improve Lucius Varus. That Lucius Verus was quite a playboy. And as I said before, Lucius really loved watching the gladiatorial bouts. He likes going to the Circus Maximus and watching the chariot races. Right. He liked acrobats and performers and musicians. Right. To entertain him. So he was a playboy libertine. And Marcus recognized that this wasn't good for him. He needed to recognize his duty to Rome and fulfill it. And that's why he. He pressed Lucius Verus into service as his co Emperor. Right. This is pretty impressive from the point of view of the Roman people and the Senate. This had to have been impressive for him to start his reign this way.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[William O. Stevens]

And then what happened? Well, what happened was warfare. So, during Antoninus Pius's realm, the Pax Romana was terrific because there were no major conflicts. There were no major rebellions or wars anywhere in the Empire while Antoninus Pius was ruling. But while that might seem like a good thing, and it is in itself, one negative consequence of that is Antoninus Pius never had to deal with a war. He never had to select generals. He. He never had to lead a campaign to maintain the security of Rome. And so when Marcus and Lucius Verus became co emperors and a revolt erupted in Parthia, to the east of the Italian peninsula, Marcus and Lucius had no experience with the military, none, because their adoptive father, Antoninus Pius, had no experience with dealing with military conflict. So he was never in a position to teach them anything. So this was difficult. And this happened quite soon after Marcus and Lucius took power. Now, having the two co Emperors meant that they did have more flexibility in how to deal with it. So the decision was made. The two of them decided that Marcus would stay home in Rome and conduct the business of the Empire. And Lucius, who was several years younger than Marcus, would lead a war party and the generals and the legionaries and lead the legions east to Parthia to suppress the rebellion there. Now, you might think that that experience would help Lucius grow up and overcome his kind of dilettantish, libertine, playboy kind of habits, negative habits, liking to party and all. But it did not have that effect at all because, in fact, Lucius installed himself in a resort city some miles from the military front, and he simply had his generals conduct all the campaigning and lead the battles. And so when they won victories, Lucius took credit for them, but he didn't really deserve much credit, Right. He didn't want to do the work of being the co emperor leading the Parthian campaign. He left that to his generals, which is unfortunate. Marcus had hoped for a little more growth of character from his adoptive brother, but it wasn't to be. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Now, at one point, Marcus Aurelius was

[Jack Wilson]

viewed as a saint.

[Interviewer/Host]

How have Christian leaders and thinkers regarded

[Jack Wilson]

him over the years?

[William O. Stevens]

Yeah. So one of the reasons for that was in addition to the wars that followed the Parthian war along the Danube, the. The Northern wars, as I call them, Marcus and Lucius had to deal with the Antonine plague. So there was a pandemic that broke out when Lucius returned from the east with his troops, with the legions they carried with them this terrible disease, and it spread throughout the empire and had a heavy toll. Hundreds of thousands of people died from the plague over a period from about 165 to 180 CE. And so Marcus had to deal with that early on in the plague. One of its victims was in fact, Lucius Verus. He died when they were starting to march north to deal with the barbarian migrations that were disturbing the northern borders. There along the Danube, the plague took the life of his own adoptive brother and Marcus soldiered on. I mean, literally leading the troops himself with his generals and fighting these campaigns that went on for years from 166 to 180 CE, on and off, on and off, one conflict after the next. But when he would withdraw at the end of the day, this is when we believe that he wrote his memoranda, when he kept his journal and rehearse these Stoic ideas, to try to keep his head on straight, to try to keep his perspective on disease, death, illness, change, right and flattery, and whether it's important to be remembered or not and have a good reputation. According to Stoic philosophy, good reputation does not contribute to a good life. Only virtue makes a life good. And so it was really important that Marcus, who was so far from Rome, away from his wife and family for much of that time, and so far away from his teachers, both in terms of time and in terms of distance, his Stoic teachers and mentors, it was really necessary for him to practice this Stoic therapy for himself, to try to urge himself to be good, to be a virtuous, just leader, to be a wise human being and understand how the world works from this Stoic perspective. And so the sincerity of his reflections in the memoranda, with his emphasis on the divine law and providence steering events in the world from this cosmic perspective, this really impressed later medieval Authors, later Christian authors, because it seems to exude a kind of Christian sensibility. Virtue is what matters. Pleasures of the flesh are not important at all. Dedication to your duty and justice, being courageous in the pursuit of virtue and wisdom, and conforming your desires to the divine direction of the cosmos, embracing and recognizing divine providence at work in every event, even ones that seem to be contrary to the good of the whole, seeing the holistic perspective of how it all fits together, how the parts fit with the whole of the universe. This stoic perspective really impressed Christian thinkers and Marcus's sincerity in trying to be doing everything he could to think correctly, pursue the truth, and fulfill his duties as a good man. This led them to sanctify him. And they treated him and wrote about him as if he were a kind of pagan saint. Even though he wasn't a Christian, he was living what they saw as a very Christian holy life.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right. Okay. So, I mean, if you were advising a president or other world leader, would you recommend memoranda to them? If the choice were between memoranda and something like Machiavelli, which do you think would better serve a president?

[William O. Stevens]

Well. Wow. Well, it is the case that William Jefferson Clinton was drawn. Yeah, he liked reading Marcus Aurelius. And these days, I can't imagine our current president reading anything since he doesn't really read. Certainly not a philosophy, any sort of philosophy. But there are certainly business leaders who are drawn to lessons that they try to. They want to extract lessons in leadership. What's called leadership. Right. Whatever that really means. Leadership from Marcus's memoranda. And I can certainly see why they're drawn to that, because of the sincerity and seriousness, the sobriety that you encounter every page, reading through the memoranda. It's in there. But I have to say, Jack, I mean, as someone who's trained as a philosopher, I mean, I just see it as a wonderful source of stoic thinking. This is stoic philosophy. So if there are political leaders or corporate bigwigs or Hollywood celebrities, I've learned that there are various Hollywood celebrities that like to read Marcus's memoranda. If they can extract from these pages lessons in how to overcome anger, learn patience, strengthen their ability to endure. Right. See circumstances from a certain holistic perspective and so not lose their temper and learn how to be encouraged to persist and persevere in their own personal challenges, you know, more help to them. And it's interesting that we can kind of look over Marcus's shoulder and imagine him writing these notes to himself, and then we ourselves apply his stoic reflections and reminders to our own situation to learn from them and benefit from them. Many stoic thinkers these days encourage people to journal themselves in a way like Marcus did, keep their own personal journal where they apply philosophical scruples and their ideals for proper conduct and duty to their own challenges. And I certainly see the value in that, and a lot of other people do. Given the enduring popularity and in fact, increased popularity of the memoranda in these very uncertain, turbulent times, Marcus stands up pretty well.

[Interviewer/Host]

It feels like we are in uncertain times, and it also feels like we're in chaotic times. And just people seem to be searching for something that will help them kind of tame the onslaught of information. And, you know, we have so much

[Jack Wilson]

coming at us so quickly that it

[Interviewer/Host]

feels like a source of stability has to come from within in order to deal with it. And Marcus Aurelius seems like part of the current appeal is just that he offers a way to do it. And you kind of can go and do it thinking, well, you know, maybe in the past they didn't have the Internet and social media and the 24hour

[Jack Wilson]

news cycle and all of that, but

[Interviewer/Host]

he was an emperor dealing with a, running an empire, which is certainly someone

[Jack Wilson]

I might be able to look to

[Interviewer/Host]

for tips when I'm, you know, thinking about coaching my youth basketball team or, or you know, just kind of figuring

[Jack Wilson]

out how to deal with all of

[Interviewer/Host]

the crazy events of the world that seem to happen on an hourly basis.

[William O. Stevens]

That's right. And this is one of the most important lessons to draw from. The memoranda is the refuge, as you say it is within. Right? No matter what's happening around you, no matter what other people are doing, if there's a pandemic, if there's fire, earthquake, flooding, the inner citadel, as one French scholar of Marcus Aurelius described it, we have an inner citadel within ourselves. Our own minds can be a place that we can withdraw to and experience peace and equanimity. This is what's up to us, according to Stoicism, is our own thoughts, our own, our own beliefs, our own judgments and decisions and the values that we uphold. These things are completely up to us to control. We are responsible 100% for what we think, what we believe and choose and decide, our attitude and our judgments. Whereas everything else in the world is beyond our control. And we just have to make the best decisions we can and how to respond to these events knowing that we don't control other people, we don't control the stock market, we don't control viruses. We don't control epidemics or warfare breaking out. Right. Or riots and protesting. We don't control those things. We control our own choices and our own behavior. And there's a kind of solace to that in recognizing that the chaos is on the outside and we can be at peace if we work at it. It takes a lot of work. It's not at all easy. It's a daily practice. But we can preserve the peace of our own mental tranquility if we're committed to doing that.

[Interviewer/Host]

I feel like your book from 2012, Marcus Aurelius A Guide for the Perplexed, could maybe be updated with the subtitle Marcus Aurelius A Guide for the Doom Scroller.

[William O. Stevens]

Yes, and this is what's so interesting. I mean, one of the things that's so fascinating about Marcus is when you read the memoranda, you'll read that he does not even consider himself to be a philosopher. He judged that term to be so lofty and so noble that he. It would be a kind of immodest self praise to describe himself as a philosopher, right? Instead he's trying to live the philosophy he's learned from his teachers and those who he's read, like Epictetus, who's another Stoic, who I've studied quite a lot. He read Epictetus discourses. He was loaned a copy by his Stoic teacher, a guy named Junius Rusticus. And Marcus just loved reading Epictetus's discourses. And he quotes from it at several places in his own memoranda, in his own journal. So he didn't consider himself to be a philosopher, because that would have been immodest of him to self describe from his point of view. And yet from our point of view, he's absolutely a philosopher. He does, as I said before, you know, he does coin new argument. He recasts these Stoic ideas in new and interesting ways in his own writings. So he very much was a philosopher. And there's no question that he was a king. He was a princeps. Right? That's the best translation of the Latin term, princeps. Right? He was a king, or we would say, we say emperor. So he was a philosopher king, a real one, not an imagined one as in Plato's Republic. But he was a real philosopher king and a Stoic emperor. And he's singular in that regard. Epictetus was born into slavery and eventually earned his freedom and opened a school for teaching Stoicism. But Marcus never had the opportunity. His fate, if you will, was Never to be a Stoic philosophy teacher. Right. He never had that as an option because he was groomed from a very early age, as we've discussed, to be an emperor. He would have preferred to be a philosopher, but his duty was to be an emperor and to serve as a king. And yet somehow he was able to kind of meld the two together. He still did his philosophy and lived it while he was on the throne.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, it was consistent of him not to view himself as a philosopher, but I wonder if he. If he ever considered maybe appointing himself a co. Philosopher with a. Perhaps with a brother.

[William O. Stevens]

No philosopher. Well, he certainly tried to. Yes, he tried to help cultivate the right kind of dutiful perspective, the right kind of outlook in his.

[Interviewer/Host]

He didn't have the right brother.

[William O. Stevens]

Adoptive brother, but he just didn't have the task. Yeah, he didn't have the right brother for that. He also certainly didn't have the right son because his son Commodus was of course, horrible. He was a real monster and a megalomaniac and pretend to fight battles in the gladiatorial arena in the coliseum, but he chopped the feet off of prisoners and bound them together so he could just hack them to death and they couldn't run away or attack him in any way. So he had a real stinker of a son. And it is a real. It's a sadness, it's a tragedy that such a great philosopher king as Marcus had such a miserable son who utterly, utterly failed to fulfill his duty to Rome like his father did.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, let's leave things there. The book is called Marcus Aurelius, Philosopher King William Stevens. Thank you so much for joining me

[Jack Wilson]

on the History of Literature.

[William O. Stevens]

Thank you, Jack. Appreciate it very much. Had a great time.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, there we go. That will do it for this episode of the History of Literature. My thanks to William O. Stevens for joining me.

[Jack Wilson]

Oh, boy. If you are tired of hearing ads during these episodes, you can hear these

[Interviewer/Host]

podcast episodes ad free.

[Jack Wilson]

Or at least no inserted ads.

[Interviewer/Host]

Low ad versions is how I call it.

[Jack Wilson]

You could get that by joining [e-mail] Literature can also sign up for our newsletter at history of literature.com or you

[Interviewer/Host]

can follow us on Blue Sky, Instagram and some other places too, but mostly

[Jack Wilson]

Blue sky and Instagram.

[Interviewer/Host]

I think these things change faster than

[Jack Wilson]

you can say the madman is a Nazi. I'm Jack Wilson. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.

[William O. Stevens]

Sam.

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