← The History of Literature
The History of Literature
790 Madness and Myth (with Natasha Joukovsky) | My Last Book with Kimberly Lau
00:58:26
Loading summary
Transcript104 lines
- [00:02]
A
The History of Literature Podcast is a member of the podglomerate Network and Lit Hub Radio. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With usaa, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions apply. You know you need fiber for a healthy gut, but do you actually know how to get it? Quaker's been serving up fiber with over 100 great tasting, good source of fiber options to choose from. Whether you like old fashioned oats, instant oatmeal granola or oatmeal squares, Quaker makes it delicious. Mmm. So good. Get your fiber with Quaker Shop Quaker's good source of fiber products at a store near you. Hello, a mediocre man on a quest for greatness thanks to the NCAA Men's Basketball tournament, also known as March Madness. A perfect bracket correctly guessing the results of 63 games with a billion dollar prize hanging in the balance. Is this a Icarus flying toward the sun? And will his wax wings melt? I talked to novelist Natasha Jukovsky about madness and myth, writing novels and the abnormally intensely average men of Washington, D.C. plus, we'll hear about an epiphany I had while everyone else ran for the train. Speaking of intensely average men of Washington, D.C. and we hear from Kimberly Lau, expert in European fairy tales, who stops by to discuss her choice for the last book she will ever read. Will it be a fairy tale? Spoiler alert. Maybe and maybe not. That's all coming up today on the History of Literature. Okay, here we go. Welcome to the podcast. I'm Jack Wilson. I'm very glad you're here. I was walking through the train station, enjoying the outdoors, about to descend the escalator when around me, everyone started to run. What was this? A terrorist we were all fleeing from? No. Although the anxiety level suddenly felt amped up, as if there were some some kind of threat we were responding to. The train was coming and people didn't want to miss it. Workers on their way to work did not want to miss their chance to get to work sooner rather than later. That was the threat. A sign told us that there was another train coming two minutes after this one, but that didn't matter. Men in suits gripping their bags, women in business suits and skirts and heels. It didn't matter. All were running. All except me. Two minutes. An extra two minutes to avoid this indignity and maybe even having a door close in your face. Anyway, I can Enjoy two minutes of sunshine and fresh air here on the platform before taking the train that comes after this one. That's what I thought. And then another thought ran into my mind. I thought, I don't need to run for the train like an animal. Yes, I confess, that's how I think. A little condescending toward my fellow human creatures. You animals. I alone retain my dignity. You've all stooped. But guess what? I don't need to run for the train like an animal. Animals don't run for trains, do they? Of course not. Imagine a dolphin, our closest cousins, intellectually running for a train. I don't think so. So I shifted my thinking. I thought, I don't need to run for the train like a barbarian. But that fails as well. Barbarians don't look at their watches and gasp when they hear the train coming and sprint like maniacs down escalators to try to jump aboard. No. Of all the living creatures on this planet, the only ones desperate enough to feel traumatized by the thought of losing two minutes, the fear of missing out that hammer blow, of thinking, oh, I just missed that one. The only ones who have allowed ourselves to be so conditioned. So that I too, even in my superiority, kind of thought, oh, well, maybe if I just hustle a little bit, I could sneak out of this one. Where all these people are running to. This was a beautiful spring morning. To be clear, this was not like the alternative would be to stand outside in the freezing cold or the pouring rain. This was the alternative here to making this train. If I miss the train, the alternative would be to breathe easier and relax and not let my stress level spike because of some arbitrary train arrival, knowing that the next one was coming in just two minutes. No, the only ones who do this are the very people who consider themselves the highest form of of living creature, the civilized human beings. Is this civilized to drop everything and run for a train? Heart pounding, blood pressure through the roof. I don't need to run for the train like. But there's no analogy to make. Every other living being has figured out that existence is better when you're not so tightly wound that your instinct is to run for a train in a panic. It's only us. Civilized humans, sophisticated urban professionals. In 2026, Neanderthals could not have been bothered to run for a train. Trees. They don't run for shit. I admire them for that. Which brings us to Natasha Jukovsky and her novel. In a way, we can divide the world into those who soar toward the sun, those who crash and burn in a panic. And those who just go about their business. The trees, me, that morning on the platform, the Neanderthals, the barbarians, the dolphins, the ships that sail calmly on. Okay. Joining us once again is Natasha Drukovsky, an author whose writing has been published in Literary Hub, Electric lit, the Common, and Still Alive. She's also a past guest of the History of Literature podcast in episode 337, when she was here to discuss Oscar Wilde's the Picture of Dorian Gray, Ovid's Myth of Narcissus, and her debut novel, the Portrait of a Mirror. And now she's back for a discussion of her new novel, Medium Rare. Natasha Jukovsky, welcome back to the History of Literature.
- [07:59]
B
Thanks for having me again.
- [08:02]
A
So when you were here before, I remember, before we talked, I was trying to learn all kinds of things about recursions and recursiveness, and I don't really remember anything I learned from that, but I remember thinking, oh, Natasha is really smart. And then I opened this book and I started reading and I thought, oh, good. March Madness and college basketball. I'm in my comfort zone here. But then I soon encountered the word bracketologically, and we were talking about statistics, and my head was zooming again. So let's start with the concept. Yeah. A 64 team single elimination tournament leads to an incredible number of potential outcomes.
- [08:43]
B
Yes.
- [08:44]
A
And I can remember a few years ago when someone was offering a billion dollars for anyone who could come up with a perfect bracket. And I'm guessing you maybe took some inspiration from that.
- [08:54]
B
Well, so Warren Buffett offered a billion dollars for a Perfect bracket in 2014. The interesting thing is Kalshee, the betting market company, offered one again this year just a few days after Medium Rare was published. So I, I felt very Cassandra, like, indeed, in the. In the resurgence of, of that. In reality, right after the book came out.
- [09:24]
A
And they. I mean, let's talk about just how hard it would be.
- [09:27]
B
Yeah.
- [09:28]
A
To predict a perfect NCAA men's basketball bracket. We kind of get into metaphors and analogies to try to get our minds around the. It's, It's. It's tougher than a billion to one, right?
- [09:41]
B
It is. It is. So I. The first page of the novel sets this out, that the odds of filling out a perfect March Madness bracket are so infinitesimal. Statisticians disagree just how infinitesimal they are. Ironically, the odds that you may see most in the media around March, April, this time of year one in 9.2 quintillion is just flat out wrong. What 9.2 quintillion is. Is two to the 63rd power because you have 64 teams in bracket 63 single elimination games. Oh, it's just like flipping a coin 63 times. Except that it's not because the bracket seating is asymmetric. The four number one seeds, the four top, that is the four top seeds are paired up against the four number 16 seeds, that is the very bottom seeds. So in some of those contests where you have the really, really asymmetric things like no. 16 seed upset a number one seed until UMBC beat UVA in 2018, the year before UVA went on to win March Madness in 2019, which is the year this novel takes place.
- [11:07]
A
Yeah. So in other words, another way of saying this, I guess, is it's not quite the same odds as if you were to just flip a coin for every contest because there's humans involved in it and some teams might be stronger than others and some teams. So you'd sort of. You have to factor that in. It seems like that would make it easier odds for someone with a great knowledge of college basketball that they could get more of these. Right.
- [11:35]
B
You would think that maybe not. Not really, though. So. So Kalsheet in that this year when they were offering the billion and nobody got it, by the way, nobody, I think, even came anywhere close, they were quoting around 1 in 120 billion, which is actually still higher than the most optimistic models that I found in my research, which, which vary from year to year. And in 2019 was around 1 in 2 billion. That is still just astronomical odds for comparison. And I looked up a lot of odds comparisons to put this in context, given we humans just aren't very good at thinking about numbers this big. If you played high school basketball on your high school varsity team, you have a 1 in 3,000 chance of making it into the NBA. If you were born in the United States, you have approximately a 1 in 10 million chance to become the President of the United States. So those are things that we in our minds think of as really, really rare. 1 in 3,000, 1 in 10 million. But like 1 in 2 billion is still really, really, really, really, really rare. And that's the absolute most optimistic. Like 101 in 120 billion is, you know, mathematically conceal. It's. It's a hotly contested issue for which there is no one right mathematical answer. An area where math really becomes closer to art, if you will.
- [13:13]
A
Yeah, I have a sort of running joke with my kids where as soon as March Madness begins, we'll be texting each other and saying, my bracket's busted. Because anybody who's tried to fill it out is. Is familiar with the idea that even if you were just to choose chalk and take the higher seed in every contest, it doesn't take long. Usually you don't get through the first day before you've lost at least once.
- [13:41]
B
More like 70, 75% correct. If you're taking the higher seed.
- [13:45]
A
Yeah. I had a office pool one year when my kids were little. They were in grade school, and we chose based on mascots. And I would say, you know, I printed it out, I brought it home, and I said, okay, a Cougar is going to play a Wolverine. Who's going to win? And they would think about the Cougar and the Wolverine. It was really fun. Blue Devil versus a Hurricane, you know, and all this Bulldogs against the Saints. And we had such a good time with it, and we finished in dead last place by a mile.
- [14:18]
B
Yeah, but you could have also finished in dead first, honestly.
- [14:22]
A
Right, right.
- [14:23]
B
It's really like, you know, those. Some of these silly instagra things where, like, people have their dogs, like, pick it. I mean, they. You honestly, I think, have about as much chance. Maybe Nate Silver could do a little better. Maybe not. I mean, the guy who got far this. This year was in the women's tournament. It may. He may actually still have it. I'm not sure what the schedule is for that one, but it's an 8th grade kid who's like, yeah, I just did it randomly. Total luck. There's a lot of luck involved.
- [14:53]
A
Yeah. And even if you knew a lot about college basketball, you don't know about the upsides. There could be injuries. There could be all kinds of factors that would interfere with your ability to pick. Okay. I think I got this from your book. I believe it says, pick a single grain of sand from anywhere in the world and you'd be 23% more likely to find it again at random than to fill out a perfect March Madness bracket.
- [15:17]
B
That metaphor, though, is tied to the 1 in 9.2 quintillion. So I think that metaphor over overstates it. It is, I think part of the reason that the 9.2 quintillion persists in the media so much is because it is like, that metaphor is so seductive. The grains of sand, so random.
- [15:37]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's pivot and talk about your book. So who are your protagonists and what do they have to do with March Madness?
- [15:47]
B
Yes. So I would say that there are Three. First we have Phil Phaeton, who is a average, very average, exceptionally average mid brow lobbyist in Washington D.C. we have his wife Raleigh, who is a southern belle turned emergency room nurse. And we have their old acquaintance, I say acquaintance more than friend from their shared undergraduate days at the University of Virginia, Cassandra. And Cassandra is our first person narrator, an omniscient first person narrator like her mythic namesake, which I'm the idea of which I'm playing with a bit. And Phil is very into basketball. He. I think the line that I put here in the book is that it comprises a fair share of his true spiritual identity or something like that. He's a big, big basketball fan and in 2019 fills out a bracket that is looking awfully good. And this is the catalyst for his and Raleigh's life to change and for Cassandra to become entangled and reentangled in it.
- [17:22]
A
And it's a, it's a billion dollar prize he's aiming for here.
- [17:26]
B
Yes, the billion dollar prize is on the table.
- [17:31]
A
And why Washington D.C. does it feel apart from this is your. Where you live. But does it feel like Washington D.C. is kind of an ideal place where a rise and fall narrative arc like this?
- [17:47]
B
It absolutely does. I think you live in the area as well. There are a lot of exceptionally average folks I think in our. Particularly in the political sphere. And you know, when I think about my first novel was much more about New York, Philadelphia. And when you think of cities like New York, you often think of exceptionalism in the industry that is known for finance or in Los Angeles, exceptionalism in the Hollywood arena. The exceptionalism in D.C. is politics and oh boy, there's a lot of unexceptional exceptional folks in that arena. So it was like this perfect spot to. In addition to being an area that I know a lot about because I've lived here for the last few years. It's an exceptional spot to find an utterly average guy. And that is what I was looking for in thinking about a modern version of the myth of Icarus and the perfect bracket conceit, specifically that rise and fall narrative. To me it felt like the best baseline for it wasn't, you know, someone who's already either particularly high or low in society. But that averageness for the contrast to the big rise and the big fall.
- [19:17]
A
It is one of the strange things about living in the area and things get so polarized and people are so famous in a kind of a D.C. type of fame. And yet, you know, I'll read about somebody and I'll read that they've done some extraordinarily horrible thing behind the scenes where they. They really went for the brass ring and they're now being, you know, they're carted off to jail or something. And I'll look at the picture and think, oh, that guy used to coach my son's soccer team, you know, and it's just like. Like, who knew, you know, he was just some dad who, like, did not seem like anything extraordinary. And here he is, like, being hauled away in handcuffs after, you know, doing some kind of scam to pilfer millions of dollars from someone.
- [20:08]
B
Right. Well. And I'm really interested in the metaphysical nature of fame in this book and how fame intersects and doesn't intersect with things like wealth, with power. There's a deliberate contrast set up between the different arenas of fame, the sports arena, the political arena, the Hollywood arena, and how oftentimes how people try and parlay one kind of power or fame or status into another. And what I would say about D.C. in particular is a lot of the famous quote unquote, people in D.C. are actually more holders of temporary power than famous in and of themselves. Like, US Senators are objectively powerful people, but, you know, once they leave office, like, maybe they show up on MSNBC twice a year. Like, there's kind of a desire to. To a use kind of Hollywood or reality TV fame to get into politics. Can't think of anyone who did that, can you? But then. But then you also have people going in the other direction, people who want to use the political office as a stepping stone to other arenas as. As well.
- [21:34]
A
Yeah. Being on television.
- [21:36]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [21:37]
A
Yeah. Right. Okay. So we are in the world of Greek myths. Let's talk about the COVID which is very striking. It looks to me, I actually. I thought, okay, that looks like Icarus falling toward a basketball hoop. I feel like I should know this painting. So I did a little research on it.
- [21:59]
B
Yes.
- [22:00]
A
And figured it out. I know that you did. Spent five years working in the museum world.
- [22:06]
B
I did.
- [22:07]
A
And art is something that's close to your heart as well. So what is. Did you have any involvement in this cover design and what is it showing here?
- [22:17]
B
So I didn't really. I mean, the experience of this cover was actually quite backwards from first. The COVID of my first novel. In this case, the way Melville House approached it was I got to answer a lot of questions up front, but then I didn't have much say on the back end. I'm very fortunate that I got a great cover. It's an awesome cover. I'm sure you found that it is the Gowie Icarus. Now, Daedalus has been conveniently removed from the side for. And the basketball hoop is not part of the original painting, of course, but they did, they did a really, really beautiful, beautiful job of kind of making it, making it look like it's part of the original. So I didn't have, I didn't choose that. If I, if I would have chosen it. I understand why they chose it. Number one, because it is very dramatic and it photographs well, et cetera. But from a conceptual standpoint, the painting that I was thinking about most when I was writing the book was not the gallery. It was Bruegel's Landscape with the Fall of Icarus, which receives many, many call outs and allusions throughout the novel. So that's what I would have pictured myself. But it is a very serene still painting. They didn't want people to think it was an art book. It's. This book is fast paced. It's plottier than my first novel. It runs at a clip. So I get why they wanted to use the galley. And I think it's a beautiful painting too, so no complaints.
- [23:52]
A
Well, speaking of the Bruegel, you were able to work that in, right? In the epigraphy? Yes, with the Auden poem, his famous poem. A lot of people will probably know the Musee des Beaux Arts with the. About suffering. They were never wrong, the old masters. It's got that line. And he's. I guess I'll just read it since I have it right here. The expensive, delicate ship that must have seen something amazing. A boy falling out of the sky, had somewhere to get to and sailed calmly on. And the point he's making in this is that in the painting that we've been talking about, you don't see Icarus up in the sky, plummeting down. You don't see him, you know, telling his father, like, I'm going to keep going. I'm going to go higher. You don't see that. You see it so much in the aftermath, where all you see is his legs sticking out of the water. And it's as if the scene is undisturbed by it. You almost don't notice it.
- [25:01]
B
Yeah. And not just his legs in the water, the tiny, tiny legs in the background. What's in the foreground is this average guy, this plowman. And the juxtaposition between the extraordinary made ordinary and the ordinary made extraordinary is the. So central to my project in this book and the mythic tradition that I'M trying to set the book in more broadly with Icarus and the, you know, the ekphrastic word and image tradition through the centuries. Because what I love about, you know, and you, you mentioned the Musee des Beaux Arts. So Bruegel, his version of the fall of Icarus is so obviously to me based on Ovid's perspect, particular rendering of the tale. And then you have Auden reacting not just to any painting of Icarus, but so specifically to Bruegels. And then I in Medium Rare. That is the version of Icarus that I am taking my inspiration from. From the beginning, I shouldn't say from the beginning. From the point that I realized Cassandra was going to be the narrator of this story because the high concept came, came before I realized that Cassandra should, should narrate it. But from that point, I, I thought of Cassandra as the expensive, delicate ship that saw something amazing, a boy falling out of the sky, but had somewhere to get to and sailed calmly on.
- [26:46]
A
It reminded me a little bit of the Mel Brooks line about the tragedy is when I prick my finger. And comedy is when you fall into a sewer and die. Yes, yes. It's almost like tragedy is when I fly too close to the sun and, you know, disaster strikes. But for you, it's just one other little, oh, there goes that, there goes that body. I got somewhere to go.
- [27:14]
B
I mean, it's the perfect, it's the perfect connection point because it is a tragicomedy. Right. I mean, this is, it is supposed to be, anyway, a very funny and fun book. Even though it's taking as its inspiration one of the more depressing and didactic myths. Hopefully it, you know, the book does not get either depressing or. Or didactic.
- [27:41]
A
Right, Right. Well, I didn't think it did, for what that's worth. So let's take a quick break and come back with more from Natasha Jukovsky. Hey folks, when I started this podcast, it seemed like I had to figure everything out all on my own Website hosting, platform, scripts, recording, editing. When you're trying to build something new, your to do list can quickly become overwhelming. Finding the right tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything can be such a game changer for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind household names like Heinz and Mattel and exciting new businesses just getting started. Shopify can help you create a beautiful new e commerce site that matches your brand's style. They can help with all the supporting features too, like email and social media campaigns, inventory Shipping, payments, analytics and more. See fewer carts go abandoned and more sales go with Shopify and their shop pay button. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com literature go to shopify.com literature that's shopify.com literature literature. This episode is brought to you by Fandango. People say fans are too distracted these days, but the truth is, when a great movie hits the screen, you show up, you stay glued, invested, part of the story. And without fans like you, there'd be no cinema magic, no shared moments. So head to fandango.com to get tickets, stream or rent or buy top movies and series. Fandango loves fans. Protein is now at Starbucks and it's never tasted so good. You can add protein cold foam to your favorite drink or try one of our new protein lattes or matcha. Try it today at Starbucks. Okay, we're back. So, Natasha, are you a college basketball fan or did you come at this idea through an interest in probability and statistics?
- [30:19]
B
The latter. I've always been interested in March Madness for its bracketological statistics, but my interest in basketball really did not arrive until I was in the process of writing the novel itself. So I actually developed my affection for the sport and for the University of Virginia's 2019 championship winning team in particular, as I was writing very much alongside Cassandra. So some of the passages about her conversion, I should say, to being a basketball fan were written actually and inserted at the end in edits because they didn't arrive until I had gone pretty much all the way, all the way through. So it was something that built in, you know, in studying those games so closely because all of the basketball in the novel is real. And it's just, you know, it's this incredible story in and of itself which really allowed me to have this ready framework for the first half of the novel that was. That was great already and be able to build on top of around that and really focus my creative energy on the story that I was superimposing onto it rather than using all my energy making up the basketball. So the basketball really became this, this act of translation that was just very pleasurable and easy in comparison to the harder work of Ex Nilo creation for the novel.
- [32:10]
A
Yeah, and I think what you're talking about is what you've already mentioned, that in that UVA University of Virginia went from almost like a laughingstock. They were the first team to be the number one seed ousted by the number 16 seed. It had never happened before. It was a total disgrace. This huge Humiliation. And then one year later, they went on this run. I guess we can't spoil it since it's actual. But they ended up winning the following year. And I'm guessing as a UVA alum, there must have been some buzz around the. The email group lists and that kind of thing as this was happening.
- [32:50]
B
Oh, yeah. I mean, my text chains were off the hook. I've. You know, I casually hoped they'd win, but I. And I. I watched some of those games as they were happening. Maybe all of them, most of them. Certainly after a certain point after, like, the Elite 8, it was. It was really clear that they were, you know, they were doing very well. And I was. I was casually invested, but I was. I was not some sort of basketball mega fan until this. Until writing the novel. And I. I would have to say that I am still more of a math than a basketball fan, but I like it a lot better. And I'm really. I'm really. I'm pretty into it now.
- [33:32]
A
But also, as a novelist, you get this kind of nice, you know, something for you to work off of. You've got the Icarus myth in that story and your protagonist, who's doing a classic rise and fall kind of thing. But the UVA story is really a fall and then rise, which is kind of triumphant, which is kind of a nice counterpoint.
- [33:52]
B
I loved that about it, too. I had originally thought that this book in the tradition of Infinite Jest, would be set in the very near future. I had this idea that it would be perpetually set next year, which I thought was really kind of fun. But then Covid happened and, like, next years were not kind of accelerating in the way that we were all feeling. And that's when I was starting to write this novel. And so I. Around the same time then, of course, I thought, well, UVA had that incredible run. There's. Yeah, there's no. That's better than any basketball that I can make up. Let me switch these things around. And, of course, by doing so and setting it in the first Trump administration, I inadvertently made the novel more prophetic than I certainly would have wanted to go. Let's put it that way.
- [34:54]
A
Right. Yeah. Cassandra again. So what have. Let's talk about the Greek myths. Last time you were here, we were looking at Narcissus, and now we have Icarus. There's a Daedalus we haven't mentioned. There's a Daedalus Industries, I guess, which is kind of like the guy who puts up the money for the billion dollars as if he's handing this guy a pair of wax wings and saying, here you go. And Cassandra, we've mentioned already. So when did you become interested in Greek myths and what about them? What about these figures like the ones we've mentioned appeals to you?
- [35:30]
B
So, in my first exposure to Greek myths was as a child. My father gave me Edith Hamilton's Mythology, which was a great introduction. I loved it, but I wouldn't say I was obsessed with it or anything. When I fell in love with Greek myth is when I encountered Ovid's Metamorphoses, because I actually wouldn't say that I'm necessarily besotted with Greek myth so much as I am with Ovid. And Ovid's humor and tone and recursivity. As we talked about last time, the way that he is able to weave these stories together and the tonal register that he hits between tragedy and comedy and the lightness that he's able to have in even just, you know, describing the darkest moments is something that I was just fatally attracted to when I encountered it. And I encountered it in college in an art history class where we looked at all of the related art and. And Caravaggio's Narcissus and the Bruegel, for sure. And in that process, I. There was no going back for me. I have been absolutely obsessed with the Metamorphosis ever since I read it.
- [37:01]
A
And it gives you this. It seems like it gives you this platform for writing these novels. Is it like. Would you say it's like a inspiration for your imagination? Does it get things moving? Does it help give you structure? Does it. What do you like so well about them in terms of creating a novel out of them?
- [37:23]
B
Well, you know, I wrote my undergraduate thesis on James Joyce's Ulysses and T.S. eliot's the Wasteland and read a lot of the corresponding literature, like, you know, Eliot's Ulysses and this idea of return to myth as the way to move forward as a modern artist. So that was, you know, a pseudo scholar scholarly project, right? 100 page undergrad thesis. But it was around 6, 8, 10 years later was when I started realizing, wait a minute. What I was trying to do in that process was actually assure myself that art was still possible. Because I have such reverence for the great works of the past, I. I definitely succumb a little bit to the burden of the past and the ancient poet and the anxiety of influence and all of that stuff. And. And what Joyce really pioneered, and then Eliot followed, was this sense of possibility in returning to myth in Its timelessness and yet temporality. Because anytime you retell a myth, you're putting in a contemporary setting. You're putting what is a timeless human story, a story that is truly stood the test of time, that humans like this story. For anything to last 2000 years, it's gotta be pretty good.
- [38:57]
A
It's touching, something central in us.
- [38:59]
B
Yeah, that's right. But then you are in adapting something that old to your own environment and your contemporary surroundings, you are necessarily doing something that someone before you could not have done. Homer could not have written a novel about March Madness. Yeah, well, that March Madness. More about it, I was going to say about a Jewish guy wandering around Dublin.
- [39:27]
A
Oh, right.
- [39:29]
B
But, but yeah, but Ovid couldn't have written about March Madness. Right? And yeah, and so there's this, what Elliot writes about in tradition and the individual talent, about how great work is this curious deep amalgamation between the timeless and the temporal and the timeless and the temporal together. That is what I'm striving for because I'm the contemporary. Publishing puts a lot of emphasis on pub date, pub month, pub year, whatever, you know. But I'm not writing novels on like a three month plan or something. I'm. I. And I've. I've. I wrote about this in Lit Hub recently actually. My timeline here is I am gunning for the posthumous house Museum. Like that is the timeline I'm working on. I'm working for artistic immortality. And part of the benefit is I never know whether or not I'll succeed. And all of that energy can go into the artistic process for the beauty and truth and sheer enjoyment itself.
- [40:44]
A
When I was reading your book and thinking about you and the way you use myth in these novels, I ran across a quote from the film director Sam Peckinpah that I wanted to run past you. And the story was. He was talking to an assistant director and he said to the assistant director, what do you think of cliches? And the assistant director said, oh, I hate him, of course, you know. And Peckinpah said, quote, I love cliches. I love cliches because they establish an immediate connection with the audience. The work of the director is to love the cliche, adopt the cliche and then work against it. You have to remake the cliche in a way nobody has ever made it before. End quote. And I thought kind of it reminded me as being a little bit akin to what you're doing with myths, that you've got this story and you say this is the heart of the story. But now I've got to put something on top of it. I've got to subvert it. I've got to, you know, put a twist on it. But I can use it as a way of establishing this connection with readers who are going to say, oh, Icarus, of course. I remember reading that when I was 4 years old and being astounded that this guy had these wax wings on and suddenly he was falling into the ocean because he flew too close to the sun. But, you know, but then it gives you sort of like this, this platform for you to start out from.
- [42:08]
B
I love that quote so much. I'm going to ask you to send. Send it to me because I want to. I want to use it again. It's so good. And I can't believe you had it prepared right after we're talking about Joyce because, you know, the Eumaeus chapter of Ulysses. Joyce's challenge to himself was to write the entire thing only in cliche. And by doing so, of course, he does something just wildly original. So this is. It speaks to my project and, you know, one of the key traditions I see myself working in so, so deeply. I love it.
- [42:50]
A
Okay, here's a question for you as an author, as Natasha Jukovsky, which of these would mean more to you? Medium Rare becomes the number one bestseller or the word bracketologically makes it into the dictionary?
- [43:11]
B
I think I'd rather medium or make one bestseller.
- [43:15]
A
Okay, good. I thought I might tempt you because I TR. To look that word up. You are the first one to use it, I am quite sure. Aren't.
- [43:22]
B
Am I? Well, I mean, I, I have a penchant for neologisms. I really like them. I, I use them liberally. So, I mean, I'd love. I. As much as I would love for there. Some of them to make it.
- [43:39]
A
You worked a long time on Medium Rare.
- [43:43]
B
I did. But, yeah. First on the. Let me finish on the dictionary first because, like, there's only so much you can take when, like, didn't the dictionary. Didn't the OED add the laughing smiley emoji to the dictionary? Like, you give me. Give me Medium Rare on the bestseller list. Any.
- [44:05]
A
I probably. I probably made that too. Good. I probably should have said something like medium Rare makes it into the top 100 or something. Number one bestseller. That. That would be hard for any author to turn it down. Okay. Okay. So what is the right frame of mind for a reader who is approaching Medium Rare to be in? What do you. What do you hope they'll enjoy about the book? You talked a little Bit about the mix of tragedy and comedy. But is this for. For a Father's Day type gift? Is this for people who are looking for a romance, for entertainment, for something to make them think all of the above?
- [44:45]
B
I envision this novel as a recursive Trojan horse operating on three levels. So my hope was that it would work on all three. The first being that it would appeal to the basketball Bros. So an uber masculine novel.
- [45:09]
A
Yeah.
- [45:10]
B
Surrounding a character driven story of female friendship. A more uber feminine novel surrounding what is ultimately a human novel to what we were just talking about in terms of myth and its staying power and its ability to transcend those sorts of differences. A big theme of both of my novels is, is the illusion of huge expanses where in reality there are very, very small differences. And the truth is that we have so much more in common as humans than we do in all of these various identity signifiers that we adopt and chafe against. And so I would. In terms of, like, who should pick up the novel? I would say hopefully anyone, my ideal reader will enjoy all three levels. But I've tried to write it in a way that even if you only are interested in one, you'll still have a delightful experience. But to your first question, in terms of, like, how someone should approach it. Yeah, I thought about this a lot and I think the. The answer I would give would be conspiratorial Legereza. And legereza is this idea of lightness that is so often actually associated with Ovid and I. As a writer, I consider the reader a friend. My first reader is always me. I think of writing as the most intense form of reading. And in reading someone's writing, you are conspiring. So if you pick up my novel, I hope we are co conspirators and you, you take a gentle touch that light, humorous legerezza.
- [47:23]
A
Well, there's. There's the conspiracy between the author, yourself and the reader, and also the conspiracy that we get from the narrator and the narrative voice and the feeling that we have that we are enjoying her and her observations as well. I would also add it is a wonderful book for history of literature fans because there's so many little nuggets of. For English majors and art, there's Kerouac and William Blake and you don't have to go far before you find a little treasure of a reference or a little, you know, a little moment of explanation of some interesting angle on some of these authors that we all love.
- [48:14]
B
Yeah. We're getting close to Easter and I tried to put in as Many Easter eggs for y' all as I could.
- [48:21]
A
Right. Okay. Well, the book is called Medium Rare. Natasha Jukovsky, thank you so much for joining me on the history of literature.
- [48:29]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [48:43]
A
Refreshing Wild cherry cola meets smooth cream. The treat you deserve. Pepsi Wild cherry and cream.
- [48:56]
B
Treat yourself. K Pop. Demon Hunters, Haja Boy's Breakfast Meal and Hunt Tricks Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi?
- [49:06]
A
It's not a battle.
- [49:07]
B
So glad the Saja Boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.
- [49:11]
A
It is an honor to share. No, it's our. It is our larger honor.
- [49:17]
B
No, really, stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side
- [49:25]
A
and participate in McDonald's while supplies last. And finally today, we spoke with Kimberly Lau back in episode. Episode 697. After she and I discussed the historical, racial context of some of our best known fairy tales, I asked her a special question. Okay. I'm joined now by Kimberly Lau, expert in fairy tales and author of the book Specters of the Race and the Development of the European Fairy Tale. Kimberly, this question comes from a listener who asks, what do you want your last book to be? This will be the last book you will ever read. You can either choose one that exists or describe one that has not yet been written.
- [50:17]
C
Yes. This is such a fabulous, fascinating question because it obviously makes you think about, what is the context in which I am reading a last book.
- [50:27]
A
Right.
- [50:28]
C
You know, and really, I think probably for most of us, thinking about that, around our death.
- [50:34]
A
Mm.
- [50:35]
C
I'm sure there must be other contexts in which we might not be reading anymore, but for me, it made me think about my death, and what kind of feeling do I want to be surrounded by at that moment? And it's hard to project that out, but I had a hard time. I have three. Three books that immediately came to mind, but I'm. I'm gonna say Angela Carter's short story collection, the Bloody Chamber, because it's, to me, full of awe. Like, I'm in such awe of the creativity, the inventedness, the. Just the imagination. It's also beautiful. It's. The language is baroque and ornate, and some of the sentences I just feel like, are so perfect. And the stories themselves, I. I love. And then I have done critical work on this book, and so it's very familiar to me and very. I feel like I know it very deeply, and. And it has been a companion to me in my life for many years because it took me so long to write the first book on Carter. And Carter, as I mentioned when we spoke before, was my entree into the European literary fairy tale. So I think of my three books, I think I would have to say Angela Carter's the Bloody Chamber.
- [52:00]
A
Yeah. Now, that's interesting because you raised something that is always on my mind. And the guests who I asked this question of don't always mention this, but the idea of what you want your state of mind to be at that point, and it sounds like you're maybe trading off a little bit, you're seeking out inspiration and nostalgia and admiration for the creativity of another human being. But you also chose something that, content wise, might not necessarily be the most calming thing to read or the most. The most tranquil or serene, or so it sounds like. You're not so worried about preparing your mind for letting go and moving into the next phase, but you're kind of hanging on to life here and taking what you can from the good things that you enjoyed when you were here.
- [52:58]
C
I think that's right, yes. It's hard for me to imagine wanting a book that would be like an accompaniment on the passage, really, or sort of preparing for the passage, I guess. I think one of the things that I like about being alive is feeling really intellectually stimulated. And Carter's collection does that for me every time I read it. But not just intellectually stimulated. Also, like, esthetically pleased and, like I said, comforted because I know the story so well and just at every turn, repeatedly surprised even by things I've read again or previously. Yeah. And so the kind of richness of it. Yeah, I think you're right. I would be looking to sort of replicate some of the things that I most appreciated in my life versus kind of reading something that would help me let go.
- [53:55]
A
Right. What were the other two books on your list?
- [54:00]
C
The other two books are Mr. Fox by Helen Oyoyemi, which is one of my favorite novels ever, and the Night Circus by Aaron Morgenstern, which I reread probably every other year.
- [54:15]
A
And what is it about those works that brought them to mind?
- [54:21]
C
Mr. Fox is incredibly complex. It's also kind of an engagement with the fairy tale. It's a retelling, a very intricate, layered, mind blowing, I would say engagement with Bluebeard Fitcher's Bird, which is another version of that story, and the Mr. Fox legend. And it switches between a narrator and his muse, and the muse comes to life, and it's really a wonderful story. And then at the very end, there are two stories about women and literal foxes and how they transcend their. Or how, how in one case they can't transcend their foxness, and in the second case, how the fox is able to transcend its foxness and be in this wonderful relationship with this woman. And then Aaron Morgenstern's the Night Circus is just a complete sensory delight. I don't know if you've read the book, but it's, it's magical, but it's. And it's about this magical circus, but the. It's so full of scent and vision and you're just immersed in this other world. And then there's a wonderful. The two protagonists who also become lovers are locked in this battle to the death that was created for them by two other people. And the way that they escape that ultimately is to become sort of liminal, ghosty beings that travel around with the circus. So they are no longer of the material world, but they're also not entirely away from it. And so I think there maybe was something about that that made me think of the last book, in addition to the fact that I just love that
- [56:16]
A
book so much, the Night Circus. I mean, as you describe it, it almost makes me think that another title for that book could be Specters of the Marvelous, which of course is the title of your book. So it seems like you're finding works that resonate with the academic work.
- [56:35]
C
Do I love that? Thank you for pointing that out.
- [56:40]
A
Okay, Kimberly Lau, thank you so much for joining me on the History of Literature.
- [56:44]
C
And thank you. Thanks so much.
- [56:51]
A
Okay, that's going to do it for this episode of the History of Literature. My thanks to Kimberly Lau and Natasha Joukovsky for joining me today. We are coming up on some very interesting episodes. We've got a few more new ones for you and then some old favorites as Emma and I will be taking our show on the road to London, Oxford and Bath, where we'll be meeting up with some of our favorite guests in person and visiting some great literary sites. We'll have news of all of that after we return, but don't worry, we'll also have plenty of new content for you between now and our tour. And once again after we come home. I'm Jack Wilson. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.
- [58:22]
B
Your next chapter in healthcare starts at Carrington College's School of Nursing in Portland. Join us for our open house on Tuesday, January 13th from 4 to 7pm you'll tour our campus, see live demos Meet instructors and learn about our Associate Degree in Nursing program that prepares you to become a registered nurse. Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now@carrington.edu events. For information on program outcomes, visit carrington.edu sci imagine a podcast that brings the whole family together.
- [58:56]
A
Filled with adventure, heart and a few surprising twists and turns, it's a place
- [59:01]
B
for you to turn off the screen, turn on your imagination, and join the everyday wonders and eternal mysteries of small town life. Introducing welcome to Hope Springs, the new
- [59:13]
A
audio drama from the renowned Augustine Institute
- [59:15]
B
and the Peabody Award winning storyteller Paul McCusker. Set in a small Colorado town, welcome
- [59:22]
A
to Hope Springs follows a group of
- [59:24]
B
young friends whose good natured adventures lead to times of laughter, courage and faith.
- [59:30]
A
It's solidly rooted in a Catholic worldview,
- [59:32]
B
with each episode exploring moral lessons in a natural and authentic way for kids, all while giving parents opportunities for conversations
- [59:41]
A
about character and virtue. So don't miss out. Follow welcome to Hope Springs on Spotify,
- [59:47]
B
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening now.