799.5 Laurie Frankel's Enormous Wings (Revisited) | My Last Book with Julie Gilbert

Summary

The History of Literature – Episode 799.5

"Laurie Frankel's Enormous Wings (Revisited) | My Last Book with Julie Gilbert"
Originally aired May 10, 2026
Host: Jacke Wilson
Special Guests: Laurie Frankel and Julie Gilbert

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Overview

In this episode, Jacke Wilson revisits his earlier conversation with novelist Laurie Frankel about her latest novel, Enormous Wings. The discussion centers around the extraordinary premise of a 77-year-old woman who becomes pregnant, using this as a lens to explore aging, motherhood, bodily autonomy, and societal attitudes towards both pregnancy and the elderly. The episode also features Julie Gilbert, great-niece of Edna Ferber, who reflects on which book she’d choose as her last read—a segment rich with nostalgia and literary passion.

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Highlights & Key Discussion Points

Laurie Frankel and "Enormous Wings"

[03:09–52:09]

Introducing Pepper Mills

• Premise: Pepper Mills, a 77-year-old Brooklyn native living in Austin, Texas, is forced by her adult children to enter a retirement community after a car accident.
  • "She is 77. She would want me to point out that she married into that ridiculous name." (Laurie Frankel, 04:05)
• Pepper, though long settled in Texas, is “somewhere between an insider and an outsider.”

The Emotional Reality of Aging and Change

• Moving into a retirement community is described as “exciting in a way — it’s like moving into a dorm, except...” but with an acute sense of doors closing rather than opening. (Host, 04:55)
  • “It’s a strange thing to be undertaking something so new and knowing that it’s probably the last move...” (Frankel, 05:34)
  • The move stirs adolescent anxieties about fitting in—cliques, unspoken rules, making new friends.

Family Dynamics and Sacrifice

• Pepper’s ex-husband already lives in the same facility—her children’s convenience often trumps her own preferences.
  • “You’re making a decision that is not the choice you would have made necessarily, but... it makes more sense for them.” (Host, 07:54)
  • “At the end of their lives... sorry, you can’t have that choice—You have to live together again. Both because it’s easier for the children...” (Frankel, 09:17)

Role Reversals

• The changing dynamic: parents not wanting to “be a burden,” in contrast to children who never hesitate to rely on their parents.
  • “At no point does my kid think, oh, I don’t want to be a burden on my mother... And yet my own parents... spend a lot of time with exactly that thought.” (Frankel, 11:32)

The Central Premise: An Impossible Pregnancy

• Pepper develops symptoms suggesting illness; instead, her doctor diagnoses her as pregnant.
  • “She’s pregnant.” (Host, 17:08)
• Frankel discusses the scientific rationale rooted in experimental cancer treatments from Pepper’s past, which plausibly (if improbably) stimulate ovulation.
  • “It’s not magic... it’s plausible.” (Host, 20:44)
  • “At first the answer seems to be, well, we don’t know... but it doesn't matter because it’s going to unhappen any minute now...” (Frankel, 22:18)

Themes: Agency, Autonomy, and Societal Response

• As the pregnancy persists, Pepper seeks an abortion—a choice complicated by Texas law and spurring national attention.
  • “She needs an abortion because... not least because she’s 77 years old.” (Frankel, 23:34)
• The situation provokes debate—scientific miracle or divine intervention? Pepper becomes an unwilling focal point in the fight over reproductive rights.
  • “Everyone gets to have an opinion... Suddenly your body is no longer your own, but is a thing that can be weighed in on by strangers and the press and the government.” (Frankel, 27:30)

Literary Inspiration and Craft

• Frankel muses on “write what you know,” arguing the exercise of writing (and reading) is to inhabit other selves.
  • “No, it was a delight... I was very close with both of my grandmothers... My own parents are more or less this age…” (Frankel, 28:43)
• Characters come alive through revision: “At the beginning, I find that I’m making all sorts of decisions for her; by the end... she’s talking for herself.” (Frankel, 30:59)
• Hilary Mantel’s The Mirror and the Light provided a key epigraph (“We know it is impossible. The question is, who can best endure impossibility?”) that fits the theme: endurance in the face of the impossible is central.

Enduring "Impossibility"

• “What I love about that quote is the verb endure. Impossibility is not something magical... It is something hard.” (Frankel, 35:20)
• Younger and older parents face different but equally real challenges: “There are ways in which these are people with a lot of time on their hands... practical aspects matter too.” (Frankel, 39:32)

Social Commentary on Aging

• Maggie Kuhn’s epigraph: “When you least expect it, someone may actually listen to what you have to say.”
  • “It is one of these unfortunate ironies... the more you learn... the less and less valued it is, the less people are listening to you.” (Frankel, 42:06)
• On representation of the elderly: most novels center on “not actually old” people; Enormous Wings wants to fill that literary gap.
  • “Novels about really, really old people being old were fewer in number than I hoped they would be.” (Frankel, 44:17)

Literary Models

• Shakespeare’s The Tempest resonated more than King Lear: "For Prospero, this journey is... he's got to lay down his staff, lay down the magic, and figure out how to endure." (Frankel, 45:44)
• Dickens’ A Christmas Carol offered another model, balancing the impossible and the real: “It’s not just about, like, this mean guy who learns to be nice. It is the realization that... it still matters who you are and how you interact with everybody else, because your life and their life are one.” (Frankel, 48:11)

The Emotional Complexity of Aging

• Older people are often denied the full range of human experience in fiction. Pepper's sexuality and capacity for new relationships challenge cultural taboos.
  • “Nobody wants to think about the fact that she's clearly had sex if she is pregnant... essentially what we boil down to is... old people are also people.” (Frankel, 49:10)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On moving to a retirement home:
  “It’s like moving into a dorm, except that college is all exciting possibilities and a retirement community has a wing for memory care.”
  — Jacke Wilson, 04:55

• On aging and enduring the impossible:
  “We know it is impossible. The question is, who can best endure impossibility?”
  — Hilary Mantel epigraph / Laurie Frankel, 34:28–35:21

• On parental self-sacrifice:
  “You have to live together again. Both because it’s easier for the children and because... I would, you know, logically decide it was the place for both of my parents, even if they don’t much like each other.”
  — Laurie Frankel, 09:17

• On how society treats pregnancy and aging:
  “Suddenly your body is no longer your own, but is a thing that can be weighed in on by strangers and neighbors and the press and the government.”
  — Laurie Frankel, 27:30

• On the diminishing value society places on elders:
  “The more you learn and the more wisdom you accrue, the less and less valued it is, the less people are listening to you.”
  — Laurie Frankel, 42:06

• On characters coming alive:
  “At the beginning, I find that I’m making all sorts of decisions for her; by the end... she’s talking for herself.”
  — Laurie Frankel, 30:59

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment | |-------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:09–16:53 | Introduction to Laurie Frankel, Pepper Mills, Retirement, and Family Dynamics| | 17:02–23:34 | Pepper’s Pregnancy – Diagnosis & Implications | | 25:07–28:23 | Health, Bodily Autonomy, and Social Ramifications | | 28:43–37:19 | Writing Process, Literary Precedents, The Epigraphs, and Enduring Impossibility| | 39:32–49:10 | Social Commentary, Aging, Literary Models, and Full Emotional Range | | 52:09–53:58 | Segment transition to Julie Gilbert's "My Last Book" |

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Julie Gilbert — "My Last Book"

[53:58–56:54]

The Power of Childhood Favorites and Literary Family

• Gilbert discusses her favorite book by Edna Ferber, So Big, which she first read as a child at her mother’s insistence ("you have to read Aunt Edna, you know. She’ll be very hurt if you don’t.") (54:58)
• Reminisces about childhood fear and fascination with Beatrix Potter’s works, specifically The Tale of Mrs. Piggle Wiggle.
• Reflects on the comfort and cyclical magic of returning to childhood reading as a final farewell:
  • "There’s something very comforting about that... to remember those pure and innocent days..." (Host, 56:14)

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Notable Closing Remarks

• Frankel’s Enormous Wings is positioned as a novel both deeply grounded in familiar human experience and boldly speculative in premise.
• Through Pepper’s story, Frankel unpacks universal questions: "How do we endure the impossible? What do the old and the young have—and lack—in common? What does society grant, and deny, to a pregnant or elderly body?"
• The episode is suffused with literary references, warmth, and humor, tackling difficult questions with empathy and wit.

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Further Reading and Listening

• Enormous Wings by Laurie Frankel
• Edna Ferber’s So Big (as recommended by Julie Gilbert)
• The Mirror and the Light by Hilary Mantel
• Shakespeare’s The Tempest
• Charles Dickens’ A Christmas Carol

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Conclusion

A resonant, thought-provoking conversation spanning generational divides, literary inspiration, and the courage to write—and endure—the impossible. Both Frankel’s and Gilbert’s segments explore the power of stories to heal, comfort, and push boundaries, and invite listeners to reflect on their own lives and favorite books.

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(End of Summary)

Transcript

[Jack Wilson]

The History of Literature Podcast is a member of the podglomerate Network and Lit Hub Radio.

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[Jack Wilson]

Hey folks, this is Jack. We're on the tour. Emma and I are somewhere in Oxford at the moment, so we're rerunning some past episodes, but guess what? This one is not all that old. How appropriate that episodes, like people, are sometimes younger than they seem. We're rerunning it as a courtesy to our good friend of the show, Laurie Frankel, who joined us to discuss her new novel, Enormous Wings earlier this year. And I screwed up the schedule, misreading May for March, and I ran the episode two months early when the book was not yet for sale. I felt horrible, so I said I'd run the episode again when the book was for sale. And look at this. What a spot on the calendar. It's Mother's Day today. Happy Mother's Day to all you wonderful moms. And this novel, spoiler alert, is all about motherhood and what it means. A very unusual mother experience or about to be mother experience. But it's always the unexpected that helps us see the familiar with fresh eyes, isn't it? And this pregnancy is extremely unexpected.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

The whole book is what to expect

[Jack Wilson]

when you're Dramatically, unexpectedly, expecting to give you something unexpected to expect. We'll run a new My Last Book with Julie Gilbert, our expert in the life and works of Edna Ferber. So there we are, and here we go. I hope you enjoy it.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Okay. Joining me once again is longtime friend of the show, Laurie Frankel, who has been part of our day before Thanksgiving tradition for several years now. We're departing from that schedule to discuss her newly released book, Enormous Wings, which I believe is her sixth novel. Laurie Frankel, welcome back to the history of literature.

[Laurie Frankel]

Thank you, Jack. I'm so glad to be here always.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

So it feels a little odd not to start out by asking you about soups and guests and whether you're hosting and all that. I was thinking, should I ask if you're throwing a party for Valentine's day or the 4th of July or. So 4th of July is in the book. Maybe that's a little too on the nose, but I guess we should. And it's a little too early to ask you about your plans for next Thanksgiving, so why don't we just go straight to the book? And I wanted to ask you about the narrator, Pepper Mills. Who is she, how old is she and where is she living?

[Laurie Frankel]

Okay. So she is 77. She would want me to point out that she married into that ridiculous name. And she points it out herself, really, at every opportunity. She is living in Austin, Texas, though she is originally from Brooklyn and though she's been in Texas many, many years, she still is something of. She's somewhere between an insider and an outsider. She's raised her children there. Those children are now raising their children there, but she isn't from there. And she at the beginning of the book, she just turned 77. And she also is just being moved into or just about to be moved into retirement, living by her children. And more or less against her will and better judgment.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Although she kind of knows, I mean, she was in a car accident, she hit a priest, so she doesn't have a car. And that part felt so real to me, that move in because, you know, it is, it's exciting in a way. It's like moving into a dorm, except that college is all exciting possibilities and a retirement community has a wing for memory care. And it feels like there's all these markers that you're not opening all these new doors, but that you're closing some off. And this is one of your last stops on your journey.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah. Yeah. And that is a strange dichotomy, I think. And she, in fact, the book kind of starts in that place where on the one hand, where it's a strange thing to be undertaking something so new and knowing that it's probably the last move, that it has all of the trappings of being a new move where all of your stuff is in boxes and you've gotten rid of a whole bunch of things and everything has to be rearranged and you have all new neighbors and, and a whole new way of life to get to know. It's moving. It's, it's the same kind of move that, that one does any number of times in one's life. And yet she knows, and is probably right that it's probably the last time she'll do it. And that is a very strange mix, I think for a new beginning. And of course everyone she's moving in with has also undertaken the same move for the same more or less reason. They're all old people. And that too is unlike anything she's done before.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Right. And in a way, you know, it's. Whenever I visit one of these places, I think how nice it is and there is this sort of freedom that comes with it and no shoveling snow and restaurants are on site and all of that. And some people that I've known have gotten very tired of their homes and having to take care of them and maybe they've gotten lonely and things like that, but it just seems like some people are ready for it, some people are not quite ready and most people probably have a lot of mixed emotions.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes, yes, of course. Lots of, lots of mixed emotions and emotions that I think are sort of adolescent, which is also I think a great irony for the aged, you know, to undertake something like this and also be feeling, you know, feeling as if you're moving into your college dorm and feeling, you know, having all of these new feelings about what if people don't like me and what are the unspoken rules here and what are the clicks and how will I make friends and how will I meet people and how will I get around without a car? These are questions that we sort of last asked as 16 year olds. Just find oneself doing it again at 77 was, it seemed to me a book length project like that just never stopped being interesting to me.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Yeah, me too. I really did find that all of that interesting. And her ex husband Roger already lives there, which is a huge curveball that she has to face. And that the, what I really enjoyed about that was the way you handled that where it, it's, it's not only is it, you know, oh, here's some, some built in conflict or some built in plot, but this emphasizes where she is in life because you can see that this is a decision that makes total sense for her kids. Yeah, it's. Well, this is, you know, why don't you just live where dad lives and you know, that way we don't have to travel across town in two different direct to see you guys and we can keep an eye on you better and we can visit you more often and all of that. But it's sort of like you get to the age where you spend the bulk of your adult life where you make decisions that make sense for you and suddenly you're making, and other people can just kind of deal with that and then suddenly you, you're making a decision that is not the choice you would have made necessarily, but it, you recognize that it's important for the kids and you're willing to sacrifice something because it makes more sense for them.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah, yeah. And I'm, I mean I'm 25 years younger than Pepper and so I'm still, I still have a, a child who's more or less a child. And I feel like such a large percentage of my decisions are made with her in mind. It's not for her convenience and it's certainly not convenient. And it was that switch that I thought was so interesting. Like on the one hand, I am certainly well practiced in making all of my decisions with my child's well being just in mind, but frankly above my own because, you know, because largely that's the way parenting is. But the switch that, that must happen when, when that child comes of age and has children of their own. It's not that you're not still making decisions for their, for their well being and, and happiness, but, but it's a very different calculus than that I am responsible for bringing this human up in the world and the her ex husband. I mean it is a thing that didn't occur to me until I wrote it. And after I wrote it I thought, gosh, this must happen all the time for exactly that reason because it's easier for the children. And so these people who have not only made this decision to live apart, but what is, you know, often just a very, very painful, difficult decision to live apart are then at the end of their lives, it turns out, nope, sorry, you can't have that choice. That choice is no longer available to you. You have to live, you have to live together again. Both because it's easier for the children and because having decided that this is the right place for my parent, I would, you know, logically decide it was the place for both of my parents, even if they don't much like each other.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Right, right. And from the parents perspective, there's a feeling that, well, I'll have a hard time resisting this decision because I don't want to be a burden. And I'm headed toward a time in life. Maybe I'm not at the moment, but I'm headed that way. And I don't want to do that to my kids.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah. Yeah. And that's the opposite of what I was just talking about, where I think children and parents are really, really good at knowing roles. And then at some point they flip. At no point does my kid think, oh, I don't want to be a burden on my mother. My kid definitely wants to be a burden on me.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

That's the deal.

[Laurie Frankel]

That's the deal. That's what we have both signed up for here. At no point has it ever occurred to her to think, gosh, I really must be a burden on my mom. And yet my own parents spend as do everyone's parents who are, who are my age and their age spend a lot of time with exactly that thought. In fact, it seems to be the thing that all of our parents, even though they're really, really wildly different, agree on. Even the ones who are divorced, even the ones who don't like each other, even no matter, you know, however different they are in so many ways, this is what they agree on. Don't want to be a burden to my children, even though my children spent all of those many, many years being a burden to me.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Right. And then the other thing that makes this so interesting and so different from, let's say, going off to the dorm in college is I was reminded of that great George Carlin line where he said, At 68, I'm every age I ever was. And he says, I'm 68 and 55 and 21 and 3. And then he has the punchline where he says, especially three. But what interests me is just the observation that as you age, you know what those earlier ages are. And so, you know, a college student might go off to the dorm and think, well, maybe someday this would be like what it's like to move into a retirement community, kind of. And, you know, but when you're 77 and doing it, you remember what it was like to move and to go somewhere new and to, you know, they, they. There's a. We can move the plot along a little bit. She's. She has a chance to go to a senior prom. Well, word senior has got a different definition from how the last prom she went to. But it is this feeling where she's going to that remembering what it was like to go to, to prom. Prom.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah. Right, right. And, and not just remembering, but being able to, to feel those memories to, to kind of go back there and inhabit it. Not least I think because she's got time because she's retired and her children are, you know, are off living their own lives now. She didn't have small children anymore and I think that that must leave some time to really contemplate this stuff. And it, these are very visceral memories. And you know, prom and moving into a dorm and moving house at all and, and being the new kid, those are things that stick with you. That, and it's very much, I guess, sense memory. And so that is also, I just think, you know, book length subject. It's another one of these things that just. That never ever stopped being interesting to write.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Yeah. And she has a 15 year old granddaughter who gives her a safe sex talk.

[Laurie Frankel]

Right? Yeah. Yes.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Which is another one of those role reversal things. And you sort of feel like, well, I'm the one other people are looking after now, including grandchildren, throw them into the mix. And then she starts spending some time with her neighbor, an Englishman who is called Moth. And then what happens to Pepper? And I should just say everything we've talked about could have been a whole book. I mean, just this, just the move and the things that she encounters there and, and all of that. I mean, you could find enough drama for a book in that situation. And we haven't even talked about sort of the central conceit.

[Laurie Frankel]

Right.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

So let's get that on the table. I'm assuming you're not spoiling it. It's right in the press release and on the COVID of the book and everything. So I think we can talk about it.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah, it is. Yeah, we can talk about it. It's true. I think if we could have kept it quiet, it would be quite a twist. But I definitely wrote it the first part of the book. I know that the reader almost certainly knows what's coming. I mean, I should say that myself, I do not read the backs of books or reviews or press materials for exactly this reason, because I don't want to know anything going in. But I think that that reader is pretty rare. And I certainly wrote the beginning of this book hoping that you're turning pages in order to figure out how exactly this is going to happen. Rather Than what exactly how it's going to happen rather than what it is that is going to happen. Ye. She moves in, she makes friends, she starts spending time with her neighbor, she falls in love. She's very surprised to fall in love at this age. But then she gets sick and she is nauseous and she has headaches and she is having trouble remembering things and keeping her brain straight.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

And you're thinking, at this age, is this dementia? Is it Alzheimer's? Is it maybe diabetes? Is it some of the medications I'm on?

[Laurie Frankel]

And instead the doctor tells, the doctor tells her that she's pregnant.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

She's pregnant.

[Laurie Frankel]

The doctor tells her that she's pregnant. Yes.

[Jack Wilson]

Yes.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Laurie Frankel]

So that indeed is the central, is the central conceit. And it's certainly what I went into this book with.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Yeah, right.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah, right. And it's, it is the idea behind. Well, it's the idea behind the title, but it's also truly the idea behind the whole thing. It is, it is certainly what I went into the book with. My. It's a funny thing, I think. I mean, it's such a strange. What do I want to say about this? It's a very strange conceit for a book which is otherwise, as you say, fairly. It's not even that it's realism, it's just that it's talking about things that lots and lots and lots of people experience as opposed to something that few to zero people ever, ever do.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Right, right.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah. And that was part of my idea too, is to explore that dichotomy. What happens when you drop something so unbelievable into a book which is otherwise completely believable? And not just believable, but familiar.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Right. Okay, let's take a quick break and then when we come back, I want to talk about how it happens and what it means for Pepper Mills.

[Julie Gilbert]

Foreign.

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[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Okay, so we're back. So, you know, you, you talked about this being something that happens to almost nobody, but you did give like a scientific explanation. This isn't something that, you know, happens to her through magic or, or through some sort of divine intervention or a miracle or, or just something inexplicable or something like that. It, I found it. That's plausible. I mean, pregnancies, I understand, can happen to women in their 70s, but historically that's been through IVF and things like that. But the explanation we get is that Pepper had been part of an experimental treatment in the 1980s in connection with her breast cancer that they subsequently learned stimulated ovulation, the treatment that she had been given. And so, and so they think at first this just happens to be random, that you came in to see the doctor because you didn't feel well. This isn't going to be a viable pregnancy. Chances are very low and this is going to terminate itself. It probably would have done so without you ever even knowing that you were pregnant. That's the first thought. But then it turns out she's actually pregnant. Pregnant.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yep. That's. Yep. That's definitely some of it, yeah.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

So at, at that point, what is she facing? I mean, we've talked about how she was, where she was in life and what this move to the community meant to her. But what new questions does this present?

[Laurie Frankel]

Well, so indeed, at first the answer seems to be, well, we don't know. In fact, okay, at first the answer is we don't know why this has happened. But it doesn't matter because it's going to unhappen any minute now. It's going to terminate as so many pregnancies do before anyone even knows that they're pregnant. And at many ages, probably not this one, but many, many ages. And this happens all the time. And it is just a fluke that they have caught it, not to worry. And so, and in fact at first she, they all think it's really good news because indeed they had feared at those symptoms could have indicated something much worse.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Yeah, right, right.

[Laurie Frankel]

And so at first the reasons why don't matter, and then because the pregnancy continues, the reasons why turn out to matter very much. And as the pregnancy continues and does not terminate itself, she becomes very keen to terminate it herself. She needs an abortion because for many, many reasons, not least because she's 77 years old.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

She's 77. So there's a question, is she strong enough to carry a baby and go through labor? The baby's going to have a 78 year old father who's going to raise the baby. This is quite a legacy to leave your own kids.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah, yeah. And even before we get worried about whether she can survive labor and parenting, we're worried about whether she can survive pregnancy, which comes with all sorts of health challenges that are challenging for people in their 20s, nevermind for people in their 70s. I wrote this book the first time in 2017 and spilled many, many words trying to convince you that this woman would do anything other than have an abortion. And therefore it really just did not work. You know, she, she could not in 2017 have an abortion for plot reasons. I didn't want her to because that isn't what I wanted the book to be about. And when I picked it back up again, this time in 2023, I reset it in Texas, thereby bridged that, that plot hole and refocused the book where it was meant to be in the first place, which was, you know, on these issues of agency and bodily autonomy and what pregnant bodies have in common with elderly bodies and the way that we treat them and the people who live in them.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Well, pregnancy, it kind of, I mean, in a baby, it kind of eats away at the body, doesn't it? I mean, it like drains the woman's body of nutrients and, and important things that, that human bodies need to live and survive. And you just can imagine, like you said, it's it's, it's hard enough for someone in their 20s, somebody who's 77. You just feel like, how can this woman go through this when, you know, she's probably taking a lot of multivitamin supplements and so on just to get the things that she needs, let alone have enough to transfer to a growing child?

[Laurie Frankel]

Right. And go through all of the changes of pregnancy and get that body safely around.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Yeah, right, right. The mobility of it and is your frame going to be strong enough?

[Laurie Frankel]

Right, yes. And those are the changes that I think happen because of pregnancy on the body. And then there are also the changes that happen because of pregnancy on a person socially and, and politically and, you know, and their place in the world. And those were also, I thought, important questions to ask about this pregnancy. And how is this pregnancy different from any other? And also how is it the same?

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Right. And the other thing, politics gets introduced in a couple of ways. One is that Texas laws don't allow for an exception. And so she doesn't have the options that she might have had 10 years ago or 15 years ago. On the other hand, she's also sort of an instant celebrity that people will view it as well. This is the perfect reason why we have to have some laws with exceptions or other people will say this is a scientific miracle. This is a perfect example of God wanting something to happen and you can see where she's going to be caught in the middle. The last thing, thing somebody who is undertaking something that's going to be this strenuous and this frightening and this dangerous is to think there's going to be crowds of people outside my house with signs and cameras and, and, and chance.

[Laurie Frankel]

Right, right. And this is what happens to pregnant people too, is that all sorts of pregnant people, not, not just 77 year old pregnant people, is that everyone gets to have an opinion, everyone gets to, to weigh in and comment. Suddenly your body is no longer your own, but is a thing that can be weighed in on by strangers and neighbors and the press and the government and all sorts of people who have, have no business being involved in, you know, in, in your body decisions and your political decisions and your life decisions and you know, your health care decisions. I mean, all of this. And so, you know, she at once finds herself in a unique position and actually a position that is shared by many, many, many people, including herself, just not for, you know, 47 years when her last child was born.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Right, okay, let me take a step back from the book a little bit and talk about the creative writing suggestion you often hear of write what you know. You've never been 77. Was it hard to imagine your way into Pepper's mind?

[Laurie Frankel]

No, it was a delight. I mean, that is such an interesting. It is maybe the most oft offered piece of writing advice and I am honestly not sure I even understand what it means.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Well, right, because who, I mean, you know, you could think about just about any book. Mark Twain was not a kid who was on a raft with, you know, like it just, just over and over. It's men writing about women, women writing about men. People are obviously always writing about things that they don't know and can't know.

[Laurie Frankel]

Right? Yeah. And that, and that is the exercise, it seems to me, of reading as well as writing. It is why I love fiction and long term fiction in particular, novels in particular, because for exactly that reason I want to, I want to be in the mind of someone, I don't know, experiencing things that I never will. That's what I like about it. But in this case, I, I was very close with both of my grandmothers. They did both eventually move into in fact the same retirement community because it was easier for my parents and, and you know, and for me. And I used to, I used to go visit them when I was in high school. I would go after school sometimes. In fact, I, I had a job working in the, the. I was waiting in their retirement community for a little while and I was very close with both of them. So that made it easy to write that character. My own parents are more or less this age and so though they are still living in the house I grew up in, that I think helped me have a sense of the age and its preoccupations and bodies and what happens to them, that kind of thing. But also what always happens is that not at first, but eventually through revision, these characters stop being characters and start being people. You, you know, I think it's one of those things that authors say and that sounds, you know, very woo woo, like, oh, she became a real person. And it's, it isn't woo woo at all. It's just that you write it and

[Julie Gilbert]

you write it and you write it.

[Laurie Frankel]

You spend a lot of hours with this person and they become consistent within, you know, within the parameters that you've laid out for them. Maybe, I don't know. But it gets easier and easier as it goes along. At the beginning, I find that I'm making all sorts of decisions for her and by the end I find that, that she's talking to her for herself.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Right it's like I. I can't remember now. Was it Flaubert saying this about Emma Bovary or who was it who said something like, well, my protagonist has just done it. She's left her husband. I never would have thought her capable of it.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah, yes, yes, that's exactly what it is. Is that flame bearer. That's really good.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Yeah. So many I can't remember now. Okay, let me ask you about Hilary Mantel. Are you a fan of her works?

[Laurie Frankel]

Oh, yes, I love Hilary Mantell.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah. The Mirror and the Light is, which is the third of the Wolf hall books. It came out while I was on writing retreat and I was saving it for a little reward for myself for having been very productive during this writing retreat, theoretically. And about a week into said writing retreat, I started it on March 3, 2020. So about a week later, I left writing retreat and went home and quarantined for the next year and a half. And the first thing I did was read that book. That was my very first quarantine book. And I mean, I don't know how much that contributed, but certainly not the entirety of why that is a, gosh, I don't know, maybe a top 10 read for me. I love, I mean, I love that book. Well, they're all really good. I mean, everything she does I really love. And all three of those Wolf hall books, I think are amazing. Like amazing amazing. And you really have to. The third one doesn't land without the first two. So then, like, I make this book recommendation to people, I'm like, great, you need to read the following 1800 pages, but it's so worth it.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

So the Mirror and the Light is also where you got the epigraph or one of the two epigraphs. And you didn't doctor the quote, but you selected the quote in a way that I thought made it even better than it was if you had used the full quote. Right. Well, I got into this. So the epigraph is we know it is impossible. The question is, who can best endure impossibility? And the full quote is, we both know what it is to serve this king. We know it is impossible. The question is, who can best endure impossibility? But by taking out that first sentence where we've subtracted the part about we both know what it is to serve this king. You've made it so open ended and mysterious and applying to any kind of impossibility. So I mean, let's apply it to the book. Enormous wing. So the pregnancy is the impossibility. You could say. And who has to endure it? Pepper has to endure it, but so does Moth, and so do the kids, and so do the doctors and. And so does the world. So I guess it's maybe. How do you read that quote and how do you think of it in terms of the book?

[Laurie Frankel]

That's exactly how I think of it in terms of the book. I mean, one of the things, if we can start at the end of what you just said, is. Yes, we think of pregnancy as just affecting the pregnant person and possibly the child inside the pregnant person. And this is untrue. Pregnancy affects. Of course it does. You know, as any other aspect of family has broad effects on lots and lots of people. So, yes, that is certainly part of it. In this one, it is obvious the way in which her being pregnant at 77 is going to change the life of her boyfriend and the life of her children and the life of their children and her doctor and the community and politics in the world and all of those things. One of the things that I love about that quote is the verb endure.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Yeah, right.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah. That. That impossibility is. Is not something that I think we tend to think that when. Well, so for startle, that we. We think of when the impossible visited upon you. It was magic, and it's a blessing, it's a miracle. Frequently we're using those kind of words, miracle in particular to talk about pregnancy and childbirth. And those are wonderful, wonderful things. And wonderful, wonderful things are the opposite of endure. So that's one of the things that I love about it, is this realization that this thing that has happened to you is going to be hard.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Right. Because you could say, we know it's impossible to climb Mount Everest. The question is, who can best confront it or who can best overcome it or something.

[Laurie Frankel]

But.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

But to endure it is so appropriate for this, because it is.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

You're going to have to outlast it. You're going to have to survive it. And. And that's what. What someone who's 77 is. Is really facing it.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah. That. That she's gonna have to live in it. That. That it isn't. That it isn't a thing to just get through to the other side, which is what Hilary Mantel is talking about, too. That it is. How are you gonna. How are you gonna live in this impossible thing? And then, because working backwards, there's also the beginning of that quote, the impossible, which is how I imagine most readers will go into this book thinking, oh, well, that can't happen. That's impossible. Yeah, but all sorts of things that we think are impossible happen anyway. The question is not why has this impossible thing happened? Nor how has this impossible thing happened, so much as it's a possible thing has happened now. What. And that is why it's the epigraph. That's the idea that I want you to have going in.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

There was also a sense that Pepper's different selves have to endure it. There's sort of the self that feels like, well, this is not right. This is not my time of life. It's not something I should have to go through. And there's also the self that is. You know, this is all in place before this happens to her. There's also the self that feels like, well, I'm old, but I'm not dead. I can do things. I'm still here. I have plenty to give. Like, why is everybody treating me, you know, like I'm infirm? And both of those selves have to endure aspects of this impossibility in a different way.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah, right. Yes. And in fact, I. One of the things that Pepper and Moth come to realize over the course of this thing is that though there are many, many ways in which it is much, much harder to be pregnant and presumably parent that at 77 than at 27, there are other ways in which being older makes aspects of this experience easier than it. Than it would be for more traditionally aged, you know, would be parents.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Yeah, I've heard that distinction drawn. I may have even drawn it myself, of parents who are like in their mid-30s versus parents who are in their early 20s. And sometimes from the vantage point of being in your 30s, it can seem like that people in their 20s are still. Sometimes they have a commitment to a social life or. I don't want to give up all of the chances I have to go out with friends, and that's a big sacrifice for them. And when you're in your mid-30s, it's a little more like, well, I've kind of done that. I'm kind of tired of it anyway. I'm kind of looking forward to being able to. To stay at home on a week night. You know, I don't have to. I don't have to scramble to make it to all of the different events and everything that I'm being invited to.

[Laurie Frankel]

Well, in addition to all of the practical aspects of it, you know, she's 77, so she's more tired. She needs to take naps during the day. She can't. She's not going to be able to get on the floor and roll around with the child. But to not have to balance work and childcare, which is impossible. To not have to balance, say, eating and paying rent without work, which is impossible. To not have to balance your own parents with aging parents with raising a baby.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

She's not in the sandwich.

[Laurie Frankel]

She's not. Right. She's not in the sandwich. She is the sandwich. She's definitely. Particular metaphor. Yes. For sure. And, you know, and there are lots of ways in which these are people with a lot of time on their hands. And. And there are ways in which, obviously that makes it much harder, but there are other ways in which it makes it easier. And those ways are important to talk about, too.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Okay. The other epigraph is a quote from Maggie. Is it Kung?

[Laurie Frankel]

I think it's Kuhn Kuhn.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Okay. Maggie Kuhn, K U H N Founder of the Gray Panthers. She says, when you least expect it, someone may actually listen to what you have to say.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Which is. It's phrased with kind of tongue in cheek here with the. It's the. I sense a little irony there that the fear is that you're going to be at a point in your life where nobody cares what you have to say. And I can kind of feel this happening with my kids and their cousins who are now, you know, in college, out of college. They're kind of taking over. We go out to dinner, and their generation is, you know, starting to drive the conversation. And, you know, the things they're about to do are kind of the more interesting things that are happening. And it feels like they're already kind of in charge, and they're going to be even more in charge soon. And then there's that hope that, well, I'd like to think I have some wisdom or I have some things that are going to be valued at some point, because I've done a lot of living and learned a lot of lessons and all of that. But you also feel like sometimes you just kind of sit back and listen because the. The six people who are all talking to one another are, you know, they've. They've got a lot of things they want to say.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah. Yeah. And it is. It is one of these unfortunate ironies about, I guess, humanity that the more. The more you learn and the more experience you have and the more wisdom you accrue, the less and less valued it is, the less people are listening to you. At. At one point in the book because. Because this has stirred up such a storm of paparazzi is out front of the building Press wanting to interview her, people wanting protesters wanting to talk to her. And Pepper feels really bad because she's just moved into this community and now no one can go outside because they feel like they're going to be mobbed by this mob. And she's. She's feeling bad about this over dinner. And what her friends say is, no, you. You've worked a miracle, which turns out not to be the pregnancy, but you've made people pay attention to us the first time in years. And. And this is the other thing that happens. And I think it is a. It is. I want to say this. It's like baked into our culture almost that we start ignoring people because, oh, they. They don't get this, the latest, you know, install on their phone.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Right. That everybody over the age. I mean, I would say now it's. I can say 77, but I think other people say that it's like 50 or 60 or something, but that everybody above whatever people's threshold is, is suddenly Grandpa Simpson.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah, right. Yes, yes. And. And to be. And to be ignored and not relevant. And that's unfortunate because that, I mean, it's unfortunate for so many reasons, but certainly one of them is that these are the people who, who have all of this wisdom and, and experience and perspective that you don't get when you're in the middle of it.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Right. So other writers who take us through this question of the passage of time and the aging process and, and shifting generations, can you think of any predecessors you might have turned to for inspiration?

[Laurie Frankel]

Well, it is interesting that you ask that question, because it is. Because it's a hard one and it's harder than I think it is. Yeah, yeah. And in fact, some of it is that I thought going in, like, oh, yes, I'll just, you know, I'll read other. Other books about. About old people and. And none of them were. Were doing quite what I wanted to do. And it actually turns out to be really, really difficult. And to think of books where the old people are actually old. So frequently, I feel like the books that are pitched to us as being about people who are old, those people are like 60, which is not old. I mean, some of what I found out while I was writing this book is 77 wasn't nearly as old as I thought it was going in. The deeper I got into the book, the less old 77 felt to me. But. But novels about really, really old people being old were fewer in number than I hoped they would be.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

I was thinking, knowing you, I was thinking, well, I Wonder if she picked up King Lear. But I don't know that that would have given you many specifics. But in terms of just the vibe and the feeling of kind of losing your grip but also still being relevant, I was thinking that there may have been a few passages in there that you would have enjoyed reading along the way.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes. So, yes, I did. I reread King Lear and sat and felt my feelings about that for a little while. And then. And this, I think, will not surprise you either. What really I felt was the right answer was the Tempest more so than Lyre, Because Lear, of course, is losing his mind, and that's a different story. Whereas Prospero is very not losing his mind. And in fact, I think in that position where he feels like not only does he have a lot left to contribute, but he's not done raising his kid, and she's not done needing parenting either. And so for Prospero, this journey is very much one of he's got to lay down his staff. He's got to lay down the magic and figure out how to endure. And that was, for me, a much closer fit to this one than Lear was. I also. I went and reread A Christmas Carol for Scrooge. Yes. I also went and deep dived Dickens a little bit, because that, too, is. Was. You know, and of course, first of all, that. That is impossible. That is ghost stories. And. Well, I suppose it depends on how you feel about ghost stories. I don't want to say it's impossible, but. But, you know, it is a much, much different story, but it also is the story of an old man who is trying to find a way, who is nonetheless trying to find a way forward.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Laurie Frankel]

Where the answer is not like, oh, you're done. It doesn't matter. You don't matter anymore. Chris Cowell is very much like, you have to figure this out before you die, because your life's not over yet. And that's what I was trying to capture.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Right. And your decisions are still having this effect on all of the people close to you.

[Laurie Frankel]

Right. Right. And that's. And. Right. And that's the point of A Christmas Carol is that. Is that it's not so much you as, look what you're doing to everybody else.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Right.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

How you choose to live really matters.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah. And how you choose to live this end of your life really matters. Like, it's the end, but it's not the last week. Right. It's just the last step. And I think that's not how a Christmas Carol is usually read, although it is, of course, the story that keeps on giving in this way. You know, it is. You know, that's why it's still useful.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Laurie Frankel]

Story, I think, is that it's not. It's not just about, like, this mean guy who learns to be nice. It is the realization that even though you have been behaving this way for a long time, you still have in this last section of life, it still matters who you are and how. How you interact with everybody else, because your life and their life are one.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

And you're not suddenly limited to a narrow set of emotions like, oh, you're going to be. Maybe you'll spend part of your day tired, and you'll spend the other part of your day a little bit afraid or a little bit bored, but you can still feel love and joy and excitement and newness and. And all of these. All of these things that. That often we kind of don't attribute to people once they get above that threshold.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah, right, exactly. Exactly. I mean, one of the things that Pepper realizes early on is that nobody wants to think about the fact that she's clearly had sex if she is pregnant, that this is the stopping point for before we even get to being pregnant. Her children, and I expect many readers and what proves to be the populace at large are really, really put off by the fact that she's having sex and she's very much like, but why? Why? And that is, I think the answer to that question, I think, is both obvious and sort of ridiculous when we dig down to it, like, essentially what we boil down to is we say, like, oh, old people are also people. Like, yeah, duh. And. And that's what I was. Look, we can do all night on King Lear. But that, I feel like, is what Lier doesn't quite get to that. The Tempest does.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

For my money, there's something else that I think you could take from Dickens, and you probably did, which is even though he's describing something that is fantastical and requires us to suspend some disbelief and everything in terms of the ghosts and all that, he tells it straight. You know, the narrative tone is one of, well, this is happening, and it might surprise people, and it's natural that it would surprise people, but it's not. We don't have to change the way we're talking to the reader because the reader is going to buckle up and go along for the ride.

[Laurie Frankel]

Right, right, right. Yes, exactly. And that's exactly why I went back to it, is because he doesn't spend any Time trying to explain to you, oh, there are ghosts. And I know you don't really believe

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

that there are ghosts, but he doesn't apologize.

[Laurie Frankel]

And that indeed is what I wanted to do with this, is to go in with you saying, yep, this is true. Don't argue with me. I'm going to get there. I promise you we'll do it. But come along for that. I've got you. Come along for this ride and I've got you. Which is what I want, to be assured, frankly, on the first page of, of all novels is like, I'm gonna get you from the beginning to the end of this book. Yeah, you are in good hands. And indeed, just that sense of like, I'm not pulling punches. I'm not apologizing for this. I'm not gonna explain it to you. Look, in fact, that's what. Marley was dead to begin with. This is where he starts. That's the first thing he wants you to know, he was dead. That's it to begin with. This is where we are. And you're like, oh, okay, I know that going in. That's. I mean, I think it's the thing to emulate. And it was something that I went back to. You know, it's a nice, it's a very short book. And, you know, as far as novels go, especially as far as Dickens go. And so it was a thing that I kept going back and rereading because I was like, okay, yes, this is how you do it.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Well, the book is called Enormous Wings. Laurie Frankel, thank you so much for joining me again on the history of literature.

[Laurie Frankel]

Jack, it is always my pleasure. Thank you so much for doing this.

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[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

And finally today, Julie Gilbert joined us

[Jack Wilson]

back in episode 673 to talk about

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

the life and works of her great

[Jack Wilson]

aunt, the famous 20th century writer Edna Ferber, author of classic works like so Big and Giant. After our conversation, I asked Julie a special question.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Okay. We're joined now by Julie Gilbert, author of Giant Love, which tells the story of the film Giant and its source novel, which was written by Julie's great aunt, Edna Ferber. Julie, this question comes from a listener who asks, what do you want your last book to be? This will be the last book you will ever read. You can either choose one that exists or describe one that has not yet been written.

[Julie Gilbert]

Can I give two answers? No, it's the last book.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

I would accept two answers. We'll have a second to the last and a last.

[Julie Gilbert]

Well, the first, the first thing that comes to mind would be an Edna Ferber book, which is probably my favorite because it was the first novel I ever read of hers when I went to camp and my mother said, you have to read Aunt Edna, you know. Yeah, she'll be very hurt if you don't. And so I read so Big soured it. I loved it. Loved it. So that would be, I guess, my answer, my trick answer would be when there was a writer named Beatrix Potter and she wrote Tales of. Yeah, of Tales of Peter Rabbit. And I, I, I just. There was one called the tale of Mrs. Piggle Wiggle, Piggly Wiggly. And I. And it haunted me for many, many years. So I thought, well, maybe you know, maybe that would be, maybe I'm grown up enough to read it at this point and have it not scare me. But I think my answer, my big answer, if I could, would be so big.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Well, with both of those answers, you're doing something that a lot of people who have answered this question have done, which is find a way to return to your childhood.

[Julie Gilbert]

Yes. Yes.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Yeah. And that's, I mean that you can see why that occurs to you. There's something very comforting about that. And at that point in your life, it's kind of a nice feeling to think that you could remember those pure and innocent days when there weren't many cares in the world and everything stretching out ahead of you was between the pages of a book or between the COVID the pages between the covers of a book, I should say.

[Julie Gilbert]

Yep. Yes. It was very well said. It was wonderful.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Okay. Julie Gilbert, thank you so much for joining me on the history of literature.

[Julie Gilbert]

Well, it was really, it was just delightful. Thank you.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Okay, there we go. That will do it for this episode.

[Jack Wilson]

We're heading to Bath now. Beth. Boss, I'll figure out.

[Interviewer (History of Literature Podcast Host)]

Say it. I guess when I'm there to inhabit

[Jack Wilson]

the world of Jane Austen and Mary Shelley, that's what Emma and I are going to be doing. And so we're going to have some Bath oriented episodes coming up for you later this week. But that's after we do episode 800, which is going to come out tomorrow. And it's a fun one with our guest Indira Ghosh, who makes me smile. I'm Jack Wilson. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.

[Julie Gilbert]

Foreign.

[Columbia Announcer]

You can't reason with the sun. Trust us, we've tried this summer. It's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear. Level up your [e-mail] to spend more time outside and less time slathering on aloe lotion. You're welcome. Columbia engineered for whatever.

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Announcer)]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[American Express Announcer]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month

[Red Bull Announcer]

required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees, extra feeful terms at mintmobile.

[Laurie Frankel]

Com.