802 Colette (with Kathleen Antonioli) | My Last Book with Colombe Schneck

Summary

The History of Literature Podcast – Episode 802

Colette (with Kathleen Antonioli) | My Last Book with Colombe Schneck
Host: Jacke Wilson
Guests: Kathleen Antonioli (Colette's biographer), Colombe Schneck (author)
Date: May 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the life, literary legacy, and personal complexities of French writer Colette (Sidonie-Gabrielle Colette), with insights from Colette biographer Kathleen Antonioli. The discussion examines Colette's formative years, her tumultuous marriage to Willy, her emergence as a celebrated author, and how her works have been received and reinterpreted across time—particularly in feminist contexts. The episode concludes with a segment featuring Colombe Schneck, who shares her "last book" choice: Proust’s monumental In Search of Lost Time.

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The Life and Work of Colette: Interview with Kathleen Antonioli

1. Colette's Formative Years and Background

[03:08 - 06:27]

• Colette was born in 1873 in Burgundy to an educated but diminishing bourgeois family.
  • Her father, not a successful earner, knew Willy’s father, which facilitated Colette’s introduction to her future husband.
• Both parents were literate and encouraged Colette’s education; she was among the first generation to attend French republican schools.
• Paris was not pivotal in Colette's life until her marriage to Willy—after which she became a mainstay of the city’s literary scene.

"She grew up in a sort of bourgeois setting, but with... less money than they'd once had."
— Kathleen Antonioli [03:35]

2. Willy and the Claudine Novels

[06:27 - 15:14]

• Willy, before Colette, was a "brand" author who led a factory-like stable of ghostwriters, publishing their work under his name.
• Upon marrying Colette, Willy "locked her in a room" to write what became the Claudine novels, which were bestsellers, sold with extensive marketing and merchandising.
• These novels, though largely Colette’s, were initially sold under Willy's name—reflecting both the era’s norms and Willy’s business-minded approach.

"Here he is. In many ways, I think he does have a certain marketing acumen... but I would say that nonetheless what he does is sort of in the end like appropriation and then... villainous."
— Kathleen Antonioli [08:32]

• The character Claudine struck a chord for her "natural" and unpolished portrayal of young womanhood, distinct from prevailing literary archetypes.

3. Colette's Agency, Divorce, and Reinvention

[15:14 - 21:37]

• The marriage was open, both having affairs (notably, Colette’s with the Marquise de Morny, aka Missy). Willy eventually sold the rights to the Claudine books, leaving Colette penniless despite their popularity.
• In response, Colette became a celebrated stage performer and wrote La Vagabonde (1910), a novel reflecting her life as a divorced, independent mime—hailed for its psychological depth and seen as a feminist classic.
• La Vagabonde was nominated for major prizes and later embraced by 1970s feminists, cementing her literary reputation.

"La Vagabonde is... about a woman on her own, making her own decisions, living her own life... I think that it's really, like a really beautiful, like, moment of liberation."
— Kathleen Antonioli [20:25]

4. Controversy, Conservatism, and Literary Standing

[21:37 - 27:47]

• Despite a libertine and scandalous personal life, Colette was not generally controversial in the French right-wing literary world; if anything, she was celebrated for her "classical French" style.
• She vocally opposed women’s suffrage and positioned herself as the embodiment of natural, traditional French femininity, which gave her latitude with critics and the public.
• Some contemporaries (e.g., Apollinaire) found her public persona "artificial," but this did not harm her substantial popularity.

"Colette was... producing and reinforcing this image of herself as a natural, deeply French woman who is really the embodiment of natural French femininity. And so nothing that she does can be wrong..."
— Kathleen Antonioli [24:09]

5. Later Legacy, Feminist Reinterpretation, and the biopic Colette

[27:47 - 35:03]

• Rediscovered by US feminists in the 1970s, Colette’s writing was embraced for its modernity and insight into women’s autonomy, though she was not a political feminist herself.
• The 2018 biopic starring Keira Knightley focuses only on her years with Willy and "ends just as her true literary career was beginning."
• Colette was attentive to her own image and was "super mercenary"—she cared about both sales and artistic legacy. She changed publishers for better deals and curated her collected works.

"Colette would not be delighted by the feminist heroine that she is today. But on the other hand... this feminist angle has really made me a lot of money."
— Kathleen Antonioli [34:00]

6. Reading Colette Today

[36:44 - 38:10]

• Antonioli recommends starting with La Vagabonde or the paired novels Chéri and La Fin de Chéri for an introduction to Colette’s finest writing.
• She advises against starting with Gigi despite its fame, stating it’s not her best work.

"Chéri and La Fin de Chéri are, in my opinion, Colette's most perfect and beautiful works of fiction."
— Kathleen Antonioli [36:52]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

"The origin of the Claudine novels looms very large in Colette's like, self mythology... Willie needed money and so he locked her in the bedroom and was like, write me something."
— Kathleen Antonioli [09:52]

"She writes the Claudine. It's like a Willie. Maybe he adds a little bit. His name still appears on the COVID in French and English... But it was like a mega bestseller and everyone loved it."
— Kathleen Antonioli [10:28]

"La Vagabonde... is nominated for one of the top literary prizes in France... So it becomes clear immediately that she was the literary talent all along. She never needed him."
— Kathleen Antonioli [20:03]

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Segment: "My Last Book" with Colombe Schneck

[40:03 - 45:06]

Schneck’s Choice: In Search of Lost Time by Marcel Proust

• Schneck praises Proust’s novel for its breadth, humor, and its ability to address life’s obsessions, failures, and universal experiences.
• She initially struggled to read Proust at 18; only after experiencing life and obsession could she fully understand and appreciate the novel in her 40s.

"You have all the world you have. Everything your life is about is in the book... Any obsession you have. Everything is in Proust."
— Colombe Schneck [40:51]

• Schneck recalls Proust’s insight that it is through the trials and "stupid love stories" in life that one becomes a writer or artist.

"You have to live in order to write, to become an artist... Spend lots of time living. And I still do, and I still feel that writing is my life. But I have to live."
— Colombe Schneck [43:51]

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Recommendations for New Colette Readers

[36:44 - 38:10]

• La Vagabonde (1910)
• Chéri and La Fin de Chéri (1920s)
• Avoid starting with Gigi

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Closing Thoughts

• Colette’s enduring appeal rests both on her innovative, psychologically insightful fiction and her complex, contradictory persona.
• Feminist readers and scholars have ensured her status today, even as her own politics and life defy easy categorization.
• The episode reflects on the necessity for both living and writing deeply in order to leave art that resonates.

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Notable Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Highlight | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:08 | Colette's upbringing and pre-Paris life | | 06:27 | Willy's literary factory and "brand" strategy | | 09:52 | The myth of the Claudine novels' creation | | 14:14 | Colette’s reaction to being uncredited and the fallout | | 19:31 | Colette’s post-divorce reinvention and La Vagabonde | | 21:37 | Controversy, conservatism, and right-wing embrace | | 27:47 | Colette’s 20th-century rediscovery and the impact of feminism | | 31:43 | Antonioli’s personal connection to Colette’s work | | 36:44 | Essential Colette reading recommendations | | 40:51 | Colombe Schneck discusses why Proust would be her last book | | 43:51 | The importance of living fully to write meaningfully, per Schneck |

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This summary captures the episode’s in-depth exploration of Colette’s tumultuous journey from obscurity to literary fame, as well as her complex relationship with both literary innovation and social convention. The episode closes with a meditation on the transformative power of reading and writing, as discussed in Schneck’s tribute to Proust.

Transcript

[A]

The History of Literature Podcast is a member of the podglomerate Network and Lit Hub Radio. This podcast episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Have you ever rearranged your furniture and discovered the carpet underneath looks brand new while the rest of it looks, well, not so new? It's time for a carpet upgrade. At the Home Depot. We have stylish choices at simple prices from all the top brands. Best of all, we can install it for you starting at only 40 doll per square foot. So all you have to do is pick your perfect floor. Start your carpet project today at the Home Depot. How doers get more done Exclusions apply for licenses. Seehomedepot.com licensenumbers. Hello Sidonie Gabrielle Colette was born in obscurity in 1873 as Colette Willie, or more simply, Colette. She became one of the most famous women in 20th century France. She was complex as she courted fame and controversy, but could also be quite conservative. She was derided and lauded. Her reputation rose and fell and rose again, and her personal life was often scrutinized and often misunderstood. Janet Flanner said of one of Collett's novels, it has no plot and yet tells of three lives. All that should be known once again and at greater length than usual. She has been hailed for her genius humanities and perfect prose by those literary journals which years ago lifted nothing at all in her direction except the finger of scorn. If you stick around, we'll have a my last book with a 21st century French woman writer, Columb Schneck. But first we go back to the late 19th century and early 20th century with Colette's biographer, Kathleen Antonioli. That's all coming up today on the history of literature. Okay. Joining me now is Kathleen Antonioli, Associate professor of French at Kansas State University. Kathleen has written several articles about the French writer Colette, and she joins us today to discuss her book Colette, part of the Critical Live series published by Reaction Books. Kathleen Antonioli, welcome to the History of Literature.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me.

[A]

So this is a writer whose life and works were entangled during her life, and they have been ever since. But in a way, I think the entanglement is kind of important. So let's try to disentangle as much as we can, but still note the significance of her personal life and everything that was all mixed together. So. But let's try to separate Colette out from Willie, first of all. So who was Colette before she met Willi?

[B]

Sure. So maybe for a little, like, broad background. Colette is a French novelist from the turn of the century, and she's born in a small village in Burgundy and had sort of an interesting family life. Her mother was married twice. The first time to a wealthier man and then. And had several children from that marriage. And then remarries. Colette's father, who was sort of. He was not a very good earner. He liked to spend money. And so this sort of comfortable life that her mother and her siblings had prior to the second marriage then sort of disintegrated or deteriorated a little bit during Colette's childhood. And so she grew up in a sort of bourgeois setting, but with. In a family with less money than they'd once had. But her father, although he was not a very literarily or financially successful man, he did no people. So somehow he knew Willy's father. And it was through that connection that Colette met Willie when she was quite young. And then eventually a romance developed between her and her first husband, who was considerably older.

[A]

So that was gonna be my question. When you described her family background, was it doesn't sound like there were intellectuals per se, or writers, but was it kind of a bohemian, artistic.

[B]

Sure, yeah. So. And I would say that absolute. That's exactly right. Both of her parents were very literate and read a lot and were not super religious. She always describes her mother also as being like someone who knows how to do things, understand, like, the ways, you know, the ways of the world. She knows what's wrong with a plant or an animal.

[A]

Street smart.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So they were very much. And they came from this sort of bourgeois milieu.

[C]

And.

[B]

And then Colette is also educated. Right. Because she's in the very first generation of school children to go to French republican schools in France. So she receives this French republican education as well as her parents both being literate people, and then. Then meets Willie and then sort of joins this literary milieu in Paris.

[A]

Mm. And was Paris a big part of her life before she met Willie, or not really at all?

[B]

I don't think it was. It seems like, really that was something that sort of happened with that first marriage is. Then they moved to Paris, and she. And then it was. Although Colette loved a vacation home, she was very much centered in Paris at that from that point until her death.

[A]

Okay, so let's back up, and let's meet Willie, but before he meets Colette. He's already kind of a successful person, but in kind of what I found to be sort of an interesting way. So who was he before the momentous occasion when they met?

[B]

So Willie was already a writer before they met, or he was a signer of novels.

[A]

He was sort of like a bit of a head of a factory, almost. Of novels.

[B]

Yeah. So he had a stable of ghostwriters who he used to ghostwrite. He would sort of come up with an idea and then farm it out to one of his ghostwriters, and then they would write the novel, and then he would add maybe a few little details, a scene. He had a character who was associated with himself, who he would sort of like insert into the various novels, like putting himself in there. He did, as far as I know, he did also write, like, theater criticism, and I think maybe he wrote that himself. But the novels, he wasn't really capable of. And so he used a stable of ghostwriters.

[A]

Yeah. But it is interesting because we're going to get to the point where Colette starts writing these novels, the Claudine novels, and they're published under Willie's name. And one way to look at that is if you just took that in isolation. You might say, well, here's a husband who just completely appropriated his wife's work. But if you look at it in the context of. Well, this is kind of what he did. He was the brand, and this was what he knew how to do. I know how to sell these novels. I put my name on them. But I. I give the key spark of insight or whatever it is that I do to contribute. I come up with the idea. But then I have, you know, these. These ghostwriters who crank out the prose, and you can just be another one of those. But it wouldn't make sense for you to publish it under your name because the brand is Willie.

[B]

I had not thought of it that way, but I do. I do think that's a reasonable way of thinking about it. Here he is. In many ways, I think he does have a certain marketing acumen of understanding what's going to sell books, how to get your name in the papers, where your picture should be, who you need to know, who you need to send A little letter to. To make sure they write a review of your book in this. You know, he has all those connections, but I would say that nonetheless what he does is sort of in the end like appropriation and then. And villainous. So I don't want to take away his villainousness, even though I do think that he did like, I do think that Colette learned a lot about the Colette that she became from Willy.

[A]

Right? Yeah, I didn't mean that either. It's. By the end it's clear that she's kind of outgrown this, this arrangement. But it just seems like at the start he probably thought, oh good, she's another. She's like a built in ghostwriter. She's someone who. But she's also very, very good. So let's talk about the Claudine novels. What were those? And was Willi part of this process at all? Or was this something that she came up with? What were they about?

[B]

The origin of the Claudine novels looms very large in Colette's like, self mythology. And the way that she tells the story is that one week she and Willie needed money and so he locked her in the bedroom and was like, write me something. And just like, just. She just sat down and wrote Claudine Alcohol, Claudine at school, her first novel. Just like, you know, in a day, in a. In a sentence. She just wrote it. And that Willie was like, leave, you know, leave some little spots so that I can add my things, you know,

[A]

my little character in the Willie touch on it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, but that, that. She already wrote that character better than he did. And so she didn't need really any of his touch ups. And if you look at the Claudine with Colette's later work, like, it's her. All of the things that Colette does in later works, it's in, in my view, it's maybe in less of a like perfected form, but it's all present in the Claudine. So she writes the Claudine. It's like a Willie. Maybe he adds a little bit. His name still appears on the COVID in French and English. So he is still considered to be, you know, in some way an author of this work. But it was like a mega bestseller and everyone loved it. And not only was it a mega bestseller, but there was quite a bit of associated merch. You could get like clothing, hair products and various other, like you could buy clothing things. There was a calendar at one point. So it, it did very well.

[A]

What did people like about it. What, like, how was it different from the other books that Willi was having ghostwritten?

[B]

Yeah. So I think, really, it's the character of Claudine that Parisians just went absolutely nuts for. And all of the reviews really focus on the character of Claudine and specifically on the fact that she's natural. They love the sort of what they see as being a really natural quality in Claudine. And I think if you look at women, women's writing, or depictions of women prior to Claudine, you had sort of like. Like, uptight, educated women, or you had certainly prostitutes. But Claudine is just a girl who's sort of hanging out, and she's at school in the book, but she's not that into school. It's fine, but she's just, like, hanging out and doing what she wants. She's in nature a lot, looking at plants, touching a tree. And I think there's something about this character. She's, like, a little bit naughty that Parisians found really delightful. And it really spoke to the moment, I think.

[A]

Yeah. And is it fair to say that there's a lot of Colette herself in Claudine?

[B]

So, certainly, I think. I mean, yes, it's not autobiographical, but. And certainly in the early days of marketing, Claudine, Willie and Colette were really emphasizing similarities between Colette and Claudine. So there are all of these really great photographs where Colette is dressed in the Claudine dress, like, from the COVID of the novel. And in some of the photographs, she's labeled Colette. And in some of the photographs in the same dress, she's labeled Claudine. Like, they're just completely interchangeable in the marketing. But the books aren't. I mean, they're not actually autobiographical. Right. Like, in the books, Claudine's mother is dead. That's not the case for Colette at all. Claudine doesn't have any siblings. Colette does. But there are definitely elements of Colette's life. And then they really want to sell it as being about Colette's life.

[A]

Mm. And how did Colette feel about this, like, after the. Say, after the first book? So it's a bestseller. She's. Is she excited? Is she already starting to feel like, well, hang on. Why is Willy getting all of the credit for this when this was basically my. These were my words, and this is my character?

[B]

Very soon, Colette starts to have some questions about whether or not her name should be on them. So they write the first three Claudine novels Come out really in really quick succession.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So it's like 1900, 1901, 1902, or 1903. So there's not a lot of time because Willie, again, marketing, he knows that this is popular right now. So now we just got to crank them out. So they crank out a couple more really quickly, and then after not very much time, they put in a, like, notice on the books. That's like, no, as we all know, Colette has been contributing to these. And then very soon after that, they get divorced, and Willy sells the rights to the Claudine for no money. And so Colette never makes a dime off of any of these bestselling novels that are based on her likeness and that she wrote.

[A]

Wow. What was their relationship like other than this issue with. With Claudine? I'm sure that dominated it, but were they sort of stormy? Were they an odd couple? Were they kind of, you know, I don't know how you can compare it or who you might compare it with, but what were the two of them like together?

[B]

So they had an open marriage for sure, in the terms I think that we would use today. So with both of them having affairs with other women. So during their marriage, Colette is having an affair with Missy, an aristocratic woman, not only with Missy, but she has a, like, a well known and publicized affair with Missy, who's an aristocratic woman, the Marquise de Morny. And then Willie is also having affairs basically the entire time. This is not. This is like me speculating now, but I think that he was jealous. I think that he was incredibly jealous of how brilliant and successful she was at a much younger age than him. And I think that he. That was intolerable to him. So he did this incredibly cruel thing of selling the rights to her novels. So, you know, it wasn't just a breakup. It was like he set out to harm her and did. To me, it seems like jealousy.

[A]

Right. Okay, let's take a quick break, and then we'll come back with more from Kathleen Antonioli. Hey, folks. Launching a business is fun, but there's so much to do and so much risk. What if I put out a podcast and nobody listens? What if nobody buys my products? That's why it's great to have one. Go to partner on your side. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, from household names like Heinz and Mattel to brands just getting started like Gymshark and Death Wish Coffee. Choose one of Shopify's hundreds of ready to use templates to build a beautiful store that matches your brand and benefit from all of Shopify's behind the scenes tools like campaigns, inventory, shipping, payments, analytics and more. If you get stuck, Shopify is there to help with their award winning 24. 7 customer support. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com literature go to shopify.com literature that's shopify.com literature

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Okay, we're back. So Kathleen, I guess let's pick up the story from where we left off. So they have this separation. Willi kind of undermines her by selling away the rights to the Claudine books. What does she do at that point?

[B]

So at that point, Colette, she had already been appearing on stage some, but one thing that she does at that point is really ramps up her stage career because she's very successful as a mime. So she sort of starts touring even more as a mime and is making a living that way, but also writes what is perhaps one of, I mean, one of her best novels, La Vagabonde, which is sort of again, semi autobiographical about a woman, a divorced woman touring as a mime. And so pretty soon after their divorce publishes La Vagabond, which, which is nominated for the Prig encour. So it's nominated for one of the top literary prizes in France at the time. It's like very. So it becomes clear immediately that she was the literary talent all along. She never needed him. And in fact La Vagabond is much better than any of the Claudine novels. So what she can do alone is much better than what she could have done with him. And I sort of see, I mean La Vagabond is like. Is such a brilliant novel, and it's about a woman on her own, making her own decisions, living her own life. She has this lover who is wealthy, and that seems like a comfortable option, right, to get married to this wealthy guy, but he's kind of boring. And she just says, no, I want to be free and live my life and tour as a. As a mime. And I think that it's really, like a really beautiful, like, moment of liberation. And that novel, the Vagabond, is really the one that then in the US in the 1970s, when feminists are looking for literary examples in the past, they really seize on that novel as being like, oh, yeah, this is the kind of story that we want to read and see told. So it really becomes one of her most important works.

[A]

Boy, it's been a long time since I was an English major writing papers as an undergraduate, but it almost seems like to have your works stolen away from you and your words stolen away from you as they happened in the Claudine novels, and then to become a mime, it almost seems like the. A little Toupat, almost. And then to reclaim your words by writing a novel about being a mime. I think I could have filled three to five pages and maybe not an A, but I could have gotten by. Okay, so was she controversial? She still had a kind of libertine streak. Was she accepted into literary society at that point, or based on her talent? Or were there. Did she have enemies and critics and so on?

[B]

So one of. Actually, the things that my book really focuses on is the. The extent to which Colette was not controversial from Claudine, Alcole, Claudine at school, her novels are very well liked by the French right wing. So even though Colette is leading this scandalous life, and even though these novels have these themes that seem like they might be feminist, Colette is a vocal anti feminist, doesn't think women should get to vote. And the novels do very well with the right wing, as does Colette personally. This continues through World War II. So she sort of manages to have it both ways, right? To, like, live her life and be the person who she is and write these things that she writes that seem like they must have been scandalous, but also to have right wing critics really praising her in the 20s. They call Colette the most classical French writer of the 1920s. So she really does get to enjoy this very special position in French literature.

[A]

Was it because France was so permissive that she had room that it was Almost like a luxury that she didn't have to try to fight for herself. And I'm thinking of like same sex relationships, for example. You could imagine if, if the society was not going to allow that or permit that, that she might have had to be a little bit less conservative and be a little bit more, what's the right word? Take that on as more of an issue that needed to be changed.

[B]

So certainly France was more permissive, especially about, about lesbian relationships than the US or I think the UK was at the same time. But I actually think that Colette's not just taking advantage of sexual liberty in France. I really think what she's doing is producing and reinforcing this image of herself as a natural, deeply French woman who is really the embodiment of natural French femininity. And so nothing that she does can be wrong because she's just acting according to her feminine instinct. And so I think that her ability to, to create this image of herself as this embodiment of French femininity, it really buys her more permission than an author who didn't have that same public image would have gotten.

[A]

Right. It's interesting and I guess, you know, who knows exactly what makes her tick. But do you trace that back to anything? Was it from her childhood or where did she develop these political views?

[B]

So Willi was an anti Dreyfusart, so he was a right winger from the start. So I think she's sort of gently, gently steeping in that milieu from her first marriage. And then I think maybe she sees that it's, it's beneficial, it's very convenient. You can sell your books to more people if the things that you write are seen as, are seen as palatable to a wider range of French people. In the 20s, she writes a book about a much older woman having an affair with a 16 year old boy. You wouldn't think the French right wing would be like, well, this is great, they loved it, they thought it was the most just, it was straight from the Greeks to this, they said, but in a positive way, like, oh, classical Greek literature. And then Colette and they La Fin de Cherie, the Last of Cherie or the End of Cheri that ends with the title character dying by suicide. And similarly, French critics really just found it very moving and classical. And they were not overall scandalized by these scandalous things because they were written by Colette.

[A]

And maybe there's a lesson for us that it's not good to try to put people in different boxes and treat them as if, well because you are this. I'm guessing that this is what you think and this is how you'll react to this issue and that issue. And maybe people felt like she was being genuinely herself.

[B]

Some people did. I think some other authors saw that Colette was. Yeah. Or. Or that. That she was putting on a show. So. Yo, Lapolinaire, who's a poet, who's very well known for writing alcohol and the calligrams. He, like, invented the calligram form. He did not like Colette. And in his letters, he's like, I just see her as really artificial. There's something about her that seems not authentic. She rubbed some people the wrong way, but they weren't people who were important. And so it didn't harm her career.

[A]

Right. Okay. So do you feel like she's been treated fairly since she was kind of rediscovered in the 20th century and now in the 21st century? Do you feel like people. And there was a movie, famous movie, that came out a few years ago, and do you think, like, people have gotten her? Right. Or do you think there's. There needs to be some corrections to how people have viewed Colette?

[B]

That's. It's a really interesting question, because in the 1970s, Colette had gone out of print in the United States. Basically, no one. No one was reading Colette. No one cared about Colette. And then her work was discovered by us feminists who were looking for examples from literature. And they really loved Colette. And they loved Colette as a feminist, which we know now she was not.

[A]

She was not in her political views, but she might have been in her

[B]

work and in her, I would say, like, ability to live her life on her own terms. I think there might be this. This desire to accuse 1970s feminists of misreading Colette or misunderstanding, but I don't think that that's it at all. Instead, I think that Colette would have been lost without them. And it's that 1970s feminists found Colette and sort of made Colette who she is now. And I think without them, I doubt that Colette would be in print in 2026. And I think that they absolutely found something that was real and present in the work and something. And also they found an appreciation for her that was not possible otherwise, without feminism. So. And then. Then the film is also a feminist take on Colette. And it's. The film is really interesting in some ways. The Keira Knightley is the star. She plays Colette. And I mean, it's interesting, right, because that we don't have a lot of English language biopics of French novelists. That's not like a common topic. And it's interesting because the film, it really only goes through Colette's marriage to Willie. Right. The film ends in 1910. Colette is going to have another 44 years of career after that. That. The film. The film. And the film has some, you know, blindnesses or, you know, it's. It's telling a specific version of Colette's story, but it's just interesting because it ends basically when her writing career begins as a truly brilliant author. And then for 44 years, she's going to be a brilliant author, which the film is not interested in. It's interested in her scandalous, sexy, sexy times.

[A]

Yeah. Willy is spending too much money, and so they need money. She writes the book, and then at one point, he locks her in a room in a country house and says, come out when you've finished. And it's all kind of about, is she going to escape the clutches of this relationship? What will it mean for the two of them if they break apart?

[B]

Well, and I think the film is also very. It's very invested in Colette's relationship with Missy.

[A]

Yeah. And that's tangled up with Willie, too, right?

[B]

Sure. Yeah. Because they're kind of at the same time intertwined.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But in fact, Pretty soon after 1910, Colette and Missy, they drift apart. It's like she marries another man. She's going to marry two more men after Willy. And so this vision of her riding off into the sunset with her queer lover is a very beautiful one, but it's not actually how her life went for very long after her marriage.

[A]

So when did you become interested in Colette? What sparked your interest? And do you feel the same way about her and her writing now that you've done all of this work on her and all this research that you did when you initially picked up one of her books.

[B]

So I read Colette for the first time as an undergraduate, and I was studying abroad in France, and I took a class from a Colette scholar. And we read La Maison de Claudine, which is in English, translated as My Mother's House, which is a collection of short stories, and it's quite autobiographical about Colette's childhood. And I just. I really loved the stories. They're very lyrical, and they're about women and girls. They're about being a girl. And I was really deeply moved by them. And. And now, more than 20 years later, I still really appreciate Colette. And how she writes about women and girls. I've learned a lot of things about Colette, Some of them good, some of them less good. You know, I feel like it's maybe hard to spend this many years with an author and just still only have a, like, innocent appreciation. But I still enjoy reading Colette, and I love teaching Colette to my students.

[A]

How do you think Colette would want us to think of her?

[B]

So if you look at Colette's correspondence, her letters, she thought really very hard about what people thought of her, and she wanted to very carefully cultivate the image of herself that appeared in media. She will provide publications with a photograph, and they'll ask her about one photograph, and she'll say, that's not my favorite. Could you use this other one? She's very attentive, not just to the physical image of herself, but also to how she's being represented and described. And if we look at those letters, I think that Colette would not be delighted by the feminist heroine that she is today. But on the other hand, she was super mercenary because Willie stole her Claudine money and her other two husbands, not wealthy men. And so Colette always needed money her entire life. So it could be that she would be like, well, wait, I'm not a feminist. Women should. Shouldn't be voting. But on the other hand, it could be that she would be like, hey, this feminist angle has really made me a lot of money. And now that you mention it, I actually think there's a lot. There's a lot that I could say yes to here.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

I actually think she could go both ways on the modern Colette. But in the end, I mean, a biopic that's. That's worth quite a bit of. Of money. So I would say, in the end, she might think it's all right.

[A]

She'd be okay with that. Would she want us to think of her books in a particular? Like, would she want us to recognize her as a. As a great author? Was she artistically ambitious like that, or was she kind of like, I'm gonna write the best book I can. But what's important to me is sales is. Is being a bestseller, so I can keep the money rolling in.

[B]

So she definitely cared about sales. And, like, a lot of French authors published all of their works with the same publisher because they formed a consistent relationship with one publisher. So, like Proust, Andre Gide. Right. They're going to publish all their works with the same publisher. Colette. No, she would publish a book with whoever would give her 50 cents more a copy. So she definitely cared about the money. But she also had an artistic sensibility. So late in her life she did a collected edition of all of her works and she wrote like little introductions to each work to sort of explain, you know, to explain it a little bit. And she made some light edits to the works that appeared in the collected volume. So she definitely had a vision of herself as an artist and of her body of work as a body of work. She did say later in her life that she didn't think the Claudine. I don't think the Claudine were her best works. She didn't think the Claudine were necessarily her best works. You know, I think that she realized that those were in some ways, you know, youthful or adolescent, and then that she came into herself as a writer. More later.

[A]

So if a reader is new to Colette's writings, where should he or she begin?

[B]

So I would begin with either the Vagabond, La Vagabond, which is Colette's 1910 prize winning or prize nominated novel about a woman mime, or her pair of novels from the twenties, Cherie and La Fin de Cherie, which in English is translated as the Last of Cherie or the End of Cherie. Chris and La Fin de Cherie are, in my opinion, Colette's most perfect and beautiful works of fiction. They're deeply psychological. The way that they write about people and relationships and time, I think are really exceptionally good women and aging in a sort of unexpected way. I think that's all really brilliant. And then I would also like to disrecommend one. So Colette is known in the United States for Gigi because it became. Because it became a movie, the musical.

[A]

Yeah, right, right.

[B]

And I, although I think that it has some things to recommend it, I do not personally find it to be Colette's finest work.

[A]

So. So that's not a good place to start.

[B]

I wouldn't, if. If you want to appreciate the of. Of Colette, I wouldn't start with Gigi personally, although people love it.

[A]

Well, I will tell people that they also would be well served by watching the film Colette, which I enjoyed quite a bit with Kieran Knightley and Dominic west, who people may know from the Wire and. And the Crown as Willie. Willie is kind of cracked me up in that film, even though he is kind of a monster at one point. But even an even better entry point would be your book, which is Colette, part of the wonderful Critical Live series published by Reaction Books. Kathleen Antonioli thank you so much for joining me on the history of literature.

[B]

Thank you for having me.

[C]

Foreign.

[B]

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[A]

And finally today I talked to Colomb schneck back in 2024 in episode 609. After she and I discussed her book Swimming in Paris in which she dives into her past to understand her present and maybe find a way to a new and better future. After she and I discussed her writing, I asked her a special question. Okay, Joining me now is Colomb Schneck, best selling French writer and the author of the book Swimming in Paris. Colombe, this question comes from a listener who asks what do you want your last book to be? This will be the last book you will ever read. You can either choose one that exists or describe one that has not yet been written.

[C]

Oh it is. It's Women of the Day by Proust. First it's huge. So I have at least six months of reading Proust, remember of the day you have all the world you have. Everything your life is about is in the book. You have clues for everything you are doing. You have answers on any questions you have about any obsession you have. Everything is in Proust. Yeah, it was about everything. And also it's a very funny book.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I know I would keep this book. Yes, this is the last book I would read. I have no doubt.

[A]

Now is Proust something that you read in school and is is he somebody who is he discovered by people like young people the way that he might be here or does he become almost like part of the establishment and people might reject him because they associate him with school and learning and all of that?

[C]

Usually teacher tried to make us read Proof. And I tried to read it when I was 18, but I kept for six months and then I stopped. I didn't understand that, you know, it was about obsession. And at 18 I couldn't understand what obsession was about. I think it was just stupid. And I didn't understand why he was so dumb, you know, to go back to Proust. And because I had lived through my own obsession, so I was able to share that with him. And one day I was ready to read him. It was not a long time ago, it was last year. And suddenly it was like, this is a book of my life, my two kids, 40 years to read it.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, so you didn't read them until last year?

[C]

Yes, I began to read it when I was 18, but I stopped halfway through. Yeah, because I didn't understand what obsession was about. You know, who tells you about your life? I think you have to went through life to have experience, to understand what it's sharing with you. Because explain, explain your life, your failure, your obsession, everything you went through, explained them to you. He tells them, well, you're not the only one, you know, we all share that.

[A]

Yeah. And if you read him at an early age. I read him when I was in college and I just was struck by this feeling of, well, I had better live, I better have some memories, I better be doing some things now because someday I may need to look back on things and I want to have this kind of treasure chest like Proust has. So it sounds like, I mean, you've lived quite a life and have had quite a few things happen to you, but you also seem like someone who can appreciate that Proust was willing to explore everything and to break everything down and to look at things in this kind of microscopic way.

[C]

Yeah, I love when he said that, you know, housekeeper say, oh, if you didn't have spent so much time with Albertine and you stupid love story, you could have write. And he said, well, it's because I've spent so much time with Albertin and my stupid love stories that I was able to become a writer. Yeah, you have to write to live in order to write, to become an artist. You know, I began to write quite late at night. Now I was 40 when I became to became a writer. So I had a lot of spend. Spend lots of time living. And I still do, and I still feel that writing is my life. But I have to live. I have to spend time doing nothing. I have to go, you know, fall in love. I have to find good food in spice markets all these things are very important too. And Post is telling us to do that. Yes, sometimes. And gash it. Doing stupid things. Doing things you want to do.

[A]

Okay, that's a wonderful answer. Colomb Schneck, thank you so much for joining me on the History of Literature.

[C]

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure talking to you.

[A]

Okay, that's going to do it for this episode of the History of Literature. Colette Colomb and Marcel Proust, A good day for France here on the podcast. My thanks to Colomb Schneck and Kathleen Antonioli for joining me today. We'll be back on Thursday with a look at a man who has spent his life in the tech world and also in the world of creativity. He's on the front lines of our battle with AI, helping authors maintain some power in the face of some overwhelming odds. I'm Jack Wilson. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time. You can't reason with the sun. Trust us, we've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear. Level up your summer@columbia columbia.com to spend more time outside and less time slathering on aloe lotion. You're welcome, Columbia. Engineered for whatever did you know if your windows are bare, indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees. Get ahead of summer with custom window treatments like solar roller shades from blinds.com and save up to 45% off during the Memorial Day Early Access sale. Whether you want to DIY it or have a pro handle everything, we've got you free samples, real design experts and zero pressure. Just help when you need it. Shop up to 45% off site wide right now during the Early Access Memorial day sale at blinds.com rules and restrictions apply.